IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-26
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08:35:02 <dihedral> to have had a happy xmas ;-)
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08:57:38 <Terkhen> good morning
08:58:58 <planetmaker> moin
09:02:48 <Mazur> Moar ning.
09:03:00 <Alberth> less ning
09:03:13 <TWerkhoven[l]> mornin
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09:16:30 <Wolf01> hello
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09:17:03 <Wolf01> moin andythenorth
09:17:14 <andythenorth> hola
09:18:40 <andythenorth> hmm
09:18:42 <andythenorth> oops
09:18:51 <andythenorth> the suggestions forum :|
09:19:16 * andythenorth accidentally visited it
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09:20:38 <peter1138> uh oh
09:21:56 <andythenorth> also
09:22:05 <andythenorth> nekomaster has been 100% right twice in a row
09:22:18 <andythenorth> stopped clock? laws of chance?
09:22:26 <andythenorth> also
09:22:38 <andythenorth> I can't create an RV with >1 trailer using nml
09:22:40 <andythenorth> dunno why
09:22:48 <andythenorth>
09:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that should work
09:24:28 <andythenorth> I think so too
09:25:19 <andythenorth> the interesting thing is that it flat out doesn't
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09:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: most likely cause though is that you're not actually using that code, but some other code :=
09:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, bye...
09:35:12 <andythenorth> bye
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10:50:15 <vargadanis> hola everyone
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10:52:13 <vargadanis> woot!
10:54:17 <Alberth> hi
10:56:32 <Terkhen> hi
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11:24:39 <LordAro> mornings
11:25:07 <vargadanis> is it possible to upgrade that magneto thingie train track to meglev?
11:26:29 <Terkhen> hi LordAro
11:26:34 <Terkhen> what is the simplest way to cause a segmentation fault?
11:26:43 <Terkhen> vargadanis: depends on what is a magneto thingie
11:26:44 <LordAro> hi Terkhen
11:26:53 <LordAro> apply 1 of my patches :D
11:26:59 <vargadanis> Terkhen, what 3rd type of train track that comes after electric
11:27:32 <LordAro> that would be monorail
11:27:36 <vargadanis> char *c; c = 0xcee;
11:27:43 <vargadanis> you got segfault :)
11:28:16 <vargadanis> or rather: char *c; *c = 'a'; :)
11:29:13 <vargadanis> so monorail and meglev aren't upgradable ?
11:30:00 <Terkhen> you can upgrade and downgrade the rails easily
11:30:28 <vargadanis> afk a little
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12:33:52 <Ammler> How does "visit website" on the GUI work, this is always grey here
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12:35:23 <TWerkhoven[l]> newgrf?
12:35:30 <TrueBrain> AI?
12:40:03 <LordAro> Ammler: this sort of thing:
12:42:23 <planetmaker> Ammler: it needs an action14 entry
12:42:31 <planetmaker> within the NewGRF
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12:44:17 <TrueBrain> it needs a GetURL
12:44:19 <TrueBrain> within the AI
12:44:20 <TrueBrain> :P
12:45:18 <Ammler> hmm, also ogfx-rv has a "grey" visit website button
12:45:57 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes, the released ones
12:50:05 <Ammler> wow, works :-)
12:51:16 <Ammler> <-- jfyi, this isn't valid url
12:51:28 <Ammler> you miss a "p/"
12:52:31 <planetmaker> hm, yes :-(
12:52:42 <planetmaker> btw, did you fix building of opengfx releases?
12:54:05 <Ammler> I wonder, if I can make a rewrite rule for such urls
12:55:31 <planetmaker> it would then fit the bundles URLs
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12:56:05 <planetmaker> though... not sure... there are others which do not need / want a 'project' expansion
12:56:12 <Yexo> hmm, URLs for AIs. Somebody should add an open browser button to the debug window to make it easier to report bugs
12:56:25 * TrueBrain looks at Yexo
12:56:26 <TrueBrain> :D
12:56:30 <planetmaker> :-D
12:56:38 <andythenorth> Yexo: any suggestions?
12:56:39 <Yexo> I already made the suggestion! :p
12:56:47 <TrueBrain> Yexo: yes; that is halve the work
12:56:50 <TrueBrain> you can as well finish it :D
12:57:09 <Yexo> I was more thinking along the lines: I did half of it, somebody else should do the other half :p
12:57:13 <planetmaker> andythenorth: did you try 1..3: return blub ?
12:57:16 <Yexo> nah, i will sometime later
12:57:22 <TrueBrain> Yexo: hehehe :P
12:57:25 <Yexo> andythenorth: that snipped looks ok
12:57:38 <Ammler> planetmaker: possible, that only the tag is part of 0.4 branch?
12:57:43 <Yexo> meh, visual studio still won't start :(
12:57:58 <TrueBrain> what is wrong with it?
12:58:05 <Yexo> it displays an error window "Cannot create the window." with only an ok button
12:58:11 <TrueBrain> :s
12:58:53 <Ammler> this would be useless, as tags are global :-)
12:58:54 <planetmaker> yes, Ammler :-(
12:59:01 <Yexo> andythenorth: is that code part of bandit already?
12:59:04 <Yexo> if so, which vehicle?
12:59:28 <planetmaker> though... hm.
13:00:01 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes, that's true. I only branched prior to tagging. So it's ok
13:00:39 <planetmaker> and that's how it should be. My plan is to now start with removing the stuff which is required by OpenTTD < 1.1.x
13:00:41 <Yexo> planetmaker: not sure what you think about it, but I'm very tempted to get everything useful (proper licence, .blend files included) from jupix repository and start adding it to opengfx+ as soon as the format for ez sprites is final
13:00:45 <planetmaker> it will reduce the extra grf quite a lot
13:00:57 <planetmaker> Yexo: I fully agree
13:01:03 <Yexo> ie don't discuss it in the 32bpp forum, just do it and perhaps send some pms to recently active artists
13:01:18 <planetmaker> I'm tempted the same. We agree, it seems
13:01:50 <planetmaker> and it seems that TB already has some prototype scripting for blender. So we've even something to start from ;-)
13:01:52 <Ammler> planetmaker: well, the branch for tagging was useless
13:02:03 <Yexo> yes, that would be very nice :)
13:02:04 <Ammler> as tags are globally, also if you make those in a tag
13:02:05 <andythenorth> Yexo: yes, that's bandit, but that code isn't committed
13:02:07 <Ammler> branch*
13:02:15 <Ammler> now you need merge for 0
13:02:23 <Yexo> andythenorth: can you provide a diff of code you tried?
13:02:28 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes. I know. It's more to indicate that further things in default need not be part of 0.4.x releases this year
13:02:29 <andythenorth> Yexo there's only one proper vehicle in bandit - in sprites/nml/trucks/test_vehicle
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13:02:39 <andythenorth> I'll just commit it not working
13:02:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you know hg diff > patchfile ?
13:03:10 <planetmaker> comitting w/o working is... strange
13:03:11 <andythenorth> yes
13:03:17 <planetmaker> what's wrong with that then?
13:03:37 <TrueBrain> Yexo: are there enough blend uploads on jupix?
13:03:57 <Yexo> not many, but I'll scrape what files I can get
13:03:58 <LordAro> plenty ;)
13:03:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker: then I have to upload to devzone or paste - but ok :P
13:04:07 <TrueBrain> as tbh, only blend files are useful
13:04:15 <TrueBrain> any uploaded pngs are basically useless on the long term
13:04:22 <Yexo> TrueBrain: last time I looked, there were quite a few. Most of them only had z0 sprites rendered
13:04:37 <Yexo> at the time I wanted at least normal zoom sprites since that was the only thing trunk supported
13:04:41 <LordAro> basically, most 'Released' entries have blend files
13:04:50 <TrueBrain> LordAro: that is good to know
13:05:01 <TrueBrain> I noticed that the default blend on the wiki has some slight mistakes
13:05:15 <TrueBrain> enough to create pixel errors
13:05:16 <LordAro> that doesn't surprise me, tbh :P
13:05:26 <Yexo> doesn't surprise me either
13:05:44 <andythenorth> hmm
13:05:45 <TrueBrain> it did to me; if you upload a blend for others to work from, at least make sure it is 100% :P
13:05:50 <LordAro> however, seems to be down
13:05:57 <planetmaker> lol
13:06:02 <Yexo> all the more reason to stop using it
13:06:02 <andythenorth> articulated cb was an issue with duplicate files in my local repo
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13:18:13 <TrueBrain> its funny, because it is true
13:19:14 <TrueBrain> time for the last xmas dinner of the year! o/
13:21:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23673 /trunk/os/ (2 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: prepare the installers for some (future) massive changes in OpenGFX w.r.t. compatability with earlier versions
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13:28:45 <Irenicus> hello everyone
13:29:55 <Rubidium> hello someone
13:30:38 <Terkhen> hi Irenicus
13:30:43 <Terkhen> bbl
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13:33:15 <Irenicus> i'm new to the community (Yogscaster as it were), can you tell me if there's any info on how a vehicle breaksdown (I know it depends on the difficulty setting, but is there a general idea)?
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13:36:47 <Rubidium> there a 'maximum' reliability for a vehicle. When just leaving the depot this is at its highest and it slowly decreases. The chance on a breakdown is related to the 'current' reliability percentage
13:37:37 <Rubidium> during the model life the maximum reliablity will start low, increase (not necessarily to 100%) and decrease again once the model gets older
13:40:37 <andythenorth> how do I 'shorten' a vehicle to 8/8 with nml?
13:41:00 <andythenorth> (case is I have template, and use a define for length)
13:41:14 <andythenorth> I have to use #ifdef?
13:42:15 <planetmaker> just use the proper keyword directly as the value for the property or callback result
13:42:41 <planetmaker> and in case of no shortening just use the value for full vehicle length
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13:43:16 * Alberth thinks andy wants an 'if' evaluation in the template :p
13:44:32 <andythenorth> I'll use the keyword
13:44:42 <andythenorth> I'm not used to all the magic built-ins yet
13:47:21 <LordAro> is working again, FYI
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14:00:24 <vargadanis|afk20> andythenorth, can I download FIRS already:)
14:00:32 <vargadanis|afk20> or shall I still wait a little bit longer?
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14:00:59 <planetmaker> you can always download it... But the current bananas version is a few months old
14:01:13 <andythenorth> vargadanis: wait a bit :P
14:01:13 <planetmaker> wait for next year for a new version ;-)
14:01:16 <vargadanis> oh.. I guess I should go for nightly
14:01:23 <planetmaker> that's an option
14:01:26 <andythenorth>
14:01:39 <vargadanis> if you want I gladly beta test if you need another someone
14:02:34 <Terkhen> beta testing is always welcome :)
14:02:49 <Terkhen> (both for OpenTTD 1.2.0 and FIRS 0.7)
14:02:53 <vargadanis> the project webste is redmine?
14:02:58 <andythenorth> yes
14:03:05 <vargadanis> sweet... love redmine
14:03:17 <Terkhen> yeah, it's quite nice
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14:03:36 <vargadanis> so it would be best if i tested ttd 1.2.0 with FIRS 0.7? :)
14:03:39 <planetmaker> vargadanis: testing the nightlies is always very welcome
14:03:48 <planetmaker> that'll make sure that the releases will be better :-)
14:04:02 <vargadanis> tbh I got completly hooked
14:04:08 <planetmaker> :-)
14:04:15 <vargadanis> never played with any game that gave me so much ... fun :)
14:04:30 <Alberth> vargadanis: that's common amongst new players :)
14:04:44 <vargadanis> okay, I'll make a separate installation for 1.2 and FIRS
14:04:51 <vargadanis> and see what happens
14:05:44 <Irenicus> i'm trying to figure out how many days a vehicle can travel before a breakdown
14:05:46 <vargadanis> btw... a feature request... a map size of 4096x4096
14:06:29 <Irenicus> is there any data that says something like "80% vehicle has a 90% chance to have a breakdown in two months" etc?
14:06:34 <vargadanis> Irenicus, I believe it works differently... it always have a chance to break down and the chance of breakdown increases with the passing of time
14:06:53 <Rubidium> first prove you can connect everything on a 2048x2048 map and have it run without slowdowns
14:06:54 <vargadanis> after the last maintenance
14:07:00 <Irenicus> because passing of time brings reliability down yes
14:07:21 <Alberth> Irenicus: I use the simple approach that higher reliability gives me less breakdowns on average
14:07:23 <vargadanis> Rubidium, cannot do that O_o
14:07:39 <Rubidium> so why a 4096x4096 map?
14:08:00 <vargadanis> well dunno... I just figured that I started on a 128x128 map
14:08:06 <vargadanis> now am at 512x512
14:08:15 <vargadanis> and everything is connected pretty much
14:08:31 <vargadanis> in a few months I figured that 2048x2048 wouldn't be big enough :)
14:08:34 <Alberth> in how many years?
14:08:57 <vargadanis> started at 1950 and by 1980 everything was hooked
14:09:09 <vargadanis> well everything that was worth mentioning
14:09:19 <vargadanis> coal mines with 24tons of prod was omitted
14:09:20 <Alberth> 1K^2 is 4 times as big, so you'll need 120 years
14:09:35 <Alberth> 2K^2 is 16 times as big
14:09:40 <Alberth> @calc 16 * 30
14:09:40 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 480
14:10:01 <vargadanis> well didn't think that one through
14:10:14 <vargadanis> is openttd being developed in C or C++?
14:10:26 <Alberth> it's C++
14:10:35 <Rubidium> that's debatable ;)
14:10:38 <appe>
14:10:40 <appe> oh, sorry.
14:10:40 <Alberth> but there is a lot of C-like code around
14:11:09 <vargadanis> I noticed that when running ttd only one of my cores are being utilized
14:11:29 <vargadanis> does ttd use treads or something that could be distributed between cores?
14:11:34 <vargadanis> threads*
14:11:54 <Alberth> that's debatable too :)
14:12:03 <vargadanis> uff okkay :)
14:12:13 <vargadanis> I'll stick to what I know best
14:12:22 <vargadanis> play the game and leave these things to ya :)
14:12:37 <Alberth>
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14:15:28 <vargadanis|TTDing> yeah got it
14:16:38 <vargadanis|TTDing> it doesn occur to me: there are huge MMOs out there which has to work in the very same deterministic way TTD is supposed to work, yet thee calculations are distributed between many nodes of a cluster
14:16:49 <vargadanis|TTDing> but again that is a completly different thing again
14:18:44 <planetmaker> vargadanis|TTDing: you might consider to not change your nick to reflect everything you do. Just keep your nick... also for afk and stuff.
14:20:48 <Alberth> vargadanis|TTDing: OpenTTD works differently; every machine participating in the game runs all computations. Otherwise you don't have enough band width at the network.
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14:51:07 <michi_cc> Irenicus:
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14:53:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23674 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_simple.cpp: -Fix (r23670): Don't read invalid memory in the 32bpp simple blitter.
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14:54:19 <Alberth> apparently, nobody has put it at the wiki
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15:21:45 <andythenorth> bbl
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16:23:00 <LordAro> "Error creating thumbnail: sh: /usr/bin/convert: not found" <-- on the wiki
16:23:19 <LordAro>
16:23:47 <LordAro> ^ Truebrain?
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16:24:34 <planetmaker> it's always a good idea to include the issue in the same line as the highlight ;-) When reading back (much) later it's otherwise not visible anymore
16:24:46 <planetmaker> (but don't repeat it now) ;-)
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17:07:16 <LordAro> gah, why is it 2 really useful too,d for 32bpp-ez (pngcrop and pngresize) are written in delphi??
17:12:21 <LordAro> still, seems to work with wine
17:14:51 <planetmaker> use NML ;-)
17:15:25 <LordAro> for offsets of ez pngs?
17:18:01 <planetmaker> it's not well tested, but should work. Look for alternative_sprites in the nml documentation
17:18:33 <planetmaker> though for how it works currently, pngcodec etc might be better suited
17:25:28 <LordAro> ha :P
17:25:39 <LordAro> argh, anyone any good at batch scripting?
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17:29:17 <Alberth> try shell-scripting instead :p
17:29:40 <Alberth> or a Makefile :)
17:33:00 <LordAro> can't it involves wine cmd :(
17:33:38 <LordAro> either way, i got wrote it out manually, rather than use a for loop
17:38:16 <Alberth> batch does not have a for-loop, unless they changed it in the past 15 years :p
17:38:36 <LordAro> <-- aparrently so :P
17:38:51 <LordAro> *apparently
17:39:32 <Alberth> finally :D
17:39:52 <LordAro> huh?
17:40:32 <Alberth> I was missing it 15 years ago :)
17:41:01 <LordAro> you of all people shold know computing changes lots in 15 years :P
17:42:00 <Alberth> nah, you just get a bunch of new hypes that everybody jumps on :p
17:42:05 <Alberth> (just kidding)
17:45:16 <LordAro> well, with windoze that isn't too far off :)
17:46:35 <SpComb^> cmd.exe has a variety of for loops
17:46:59 <SpComb^> it can do files-in-dir, fields-in-lines-in-files and whatnot
17:49:19 <LordAro> bored noaw. anyone help with my microphone problem?
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18:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> can we have mouse wheel going to zoom 1x, and ctrl+mouse wheel go x2 and x4?
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18:45:26 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23675 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by Wowanxm
18:45:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 18 changes by fanioz
18:45:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: persian - 47 changes by Peymanpn
18:45:28 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: urdu - 19 changes by haider
19:15:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: where are your cargo class draft specs?
19:15:42 <planetmaker>
19:16:06 <dihedral> woops
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19:35:55 <insulfrog> hi all
19:36:22 <planetmaker> <-- there, Eddi|zuHause. I made your suggestion official ;-)
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19:36:37 <planetmaker> as no-one dared, obviously
19:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause> good
19:40:48 <Alberth> good night all
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19:42:16 <insulfrog> I have been having a go at the NoGo system that is in the r23672 nightly along with the 2 extra zoom levels, looks good so far
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19:46:33 <insulfrog> do you think that the NoGo system might lead to an 'objective' system like there is in other 'transport-based' tycoon games?
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19:57:50 <planetmaker> depends what you make of it, insulfrog
20:00:26 <insulfrog> well I do say that it is very early to tell withouth an extensive set of NoGo scripts and some very creative people writing them
20:00:48 <insulfrog> *without
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20:20:05 <insulfrog> I am thinking about Railroad Tycoon (2 and 3) too often about thinking about 'mission objectives' (i.e. deliver many cargo x to place y or make z amount of money, etc :p ) but perhaps something similar can be done in openttd if NoGo is successful
20:21:37 <andythenorth> insulfrog I dunno what inspired TB to do NoGo, but I have been asking for that for some years :)
20:22:06 <andythenorth>
20:22:49 <andythenorth> I doubt that my request is why it got done though :D
20:23:07 <TrueBrain> LordAro: I would have no clue; I dont maintain the mediawiki installation .. I guess Rubidium knows more about those issues
20:23:19 <planetmaker> insulfrog: it can be done. Right now
20:23:27 <planetmaker> just write your script to ensure that ;-)
20:24:21 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I presented a small list of things I would be willing to do to the OpenTTD dev (when talking over what OpenTTD needs), and they picked NoGo as the thing to do (to give a rough summary :p). It wasnt until a few days into working on it I read that others had the same idea over the years :P
20:24:29 <TrueBrain> (only underlines the long standing need for something like that :P)
20:24:43 <insulfrog> if that is going to be successful, we will need to create something a bit more 'user friendly' rather than writing a script like a complex pregramming language
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20:24:53 <andythenorth> why?
20:24:54 <insulfrog> *programming
20:25:03 <planetmaker> insulfrog: ehm... no?
20:25:09 <andythenorth> making it harder reduces the number of people who can do it
20:25:14 <andythenorth> which is good
20:25:20 <planetmaker> you cannot have the full flexibility and the "one button solves it all"
20:25:30 <planetmaker> Just download your favourite script, if you don#t feel like programming
20:25:41 <planetmaker> via ingame content download
20:25:53 <planetmaker> but then... you've got to eat what is being served
20:26:28 <planetmaker> it's an option. How people use it: up to them
20:26:38 <planetmaker> it's the same difficulty level as AI or NewGRFs
20:26:46 <planetmaker> for the user and the programmer
20:28:04 <insulfrog> if railroad tycoon 2 and 3 can create a mission based scenario in the game itself with a few dialogue boxes then surley something similar can be done in openttd.
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20:28:31 <andythenorth> I thought the RT3 scenarios were scripted?
20:28:39 <planetmaker> yes. Just click 'use this scenario script' and be done. Even simpler
20:29:10 <andythenorth> I never made any, but reading hawkdawg, I thought the more crafted scenarios used simple scripting
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20:29:30 <andythenorth> hmm
20:29:51 <andythenorth> BANDIT trucks name strings will be [Manufacturer] [Model name]
20:30:02 <andythenorth> but for an alphabetised sort, that might be annoying?
20:30:05 <Zuu> insulfrog: Also, we are at a moment where people with skills that are not really have a full idea of what to do with NoGo. It just opens too many posibilities. :-)
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20:30:53 <Zuu> You'll have to wait for people to figure out smart ways to use the scripting environment and produce good and well designed goal packages.
20:30:59 <TrueBrain> I see no issues to (over time) make a simple dialog to click a few entries to start specific scenario
20:31:04 <TrueBrain> of course someone will have to write a script for that
20:31:20 <TrueBrain> but it should be easy enough (over time) to make it configurable to an extend it feels like you are configuring a scenario
20:31:41 <TrueBrain> but like said, NoGo atm is for script writers to present something to users
20:31:43 <TrueBrain> not for end-users
20:31:57 <planetmaker> like the new newgrf possibilities, too
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20:32:21 <planetmaker> it's not like you can now magically expect old sets to refit in stations ;-)
20:32:38 <TrueBrain> but but but but
20:32:39 <TrueBrain> OWH!
20:33:10 * andythenorth makes trucks
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20:37:03 <andythenorth> hola Snail_
20:37:18 <Snail_> hey andy
20:37:22 <Snail_> how's it going?
20:38:12 <andythenorth> trucks
20:42:42 <TrueBrain> they go: vroem vroem
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21:33:40 <TrueBrain> LordAro: wiki issue fixed
21:35:21 <LordAro> yay :)
21:35:23 <LordAro> ty
21:35:52 <TrueBrain> thank Rubidium :P
21:36:00 <TrueBrain> he knew what was missing :)
21:37:16 <LordAro> at least someone did :P
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21:58:12 <LordAro> Truebrain: i was about to complain that the problem is still there, but then i remembered to hard refresh :)
21:59:51 <__ln__>
22:00:06 <insulfrog> well, gotta go, cyas
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23:21:09 <Terkhen> good night
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23:29:40 <andythenorth> bye
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