IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-25
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00:29:11 <vargadanis> a small trick i just noticed.. I was 1 tile out from the 2nd industry... I placed a 1 tile station with CTRL pressed and attached to the other station and now the 1st station accepts what is needed by the 2nd indu
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10:39:36 <Wolf01> hohoho merry xmas to all
10:41:06 <appe> oh wait, some countries still have christmas eve
10:41:41 <Wolf01> some countries have today and tomorrow instead of yesterday :P
10:42:28 <peter1138> no point rushing it
10:42:38 <appe> sweden reserved the 24:th.
10:45:27 <peter1138> hmm, suddenly explosion of stickied 32bpp threads :S
10:48:42 * peter1138 ponders working on ez sprites again
10:49:57 <appe> peter1138: isnt this a day for ..not openttd related stuff?
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10:55:10 <appe> no, no particular reason. im just trying to insert ginger bread in your sprites
11:03:42 <peter1138> i don't make sprites
11:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> germany is the worst... we have christmas eve, christmas day, and 2nd christmas day....
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12:41:57 <vargadanis> this is a station that can be loaded from both sides and trains tend to turn around and create a hook which blocks all incoming and outgoung traffic
12:42:08 <vargadanis> is there any way to get around this?
12:44:39 <Progman> vargadanis: isn't there a track piece missing at the left on the lower junction?
12:45:12 <peter1138> vargadanis, follow the signal layout that pikkabird gives
12:45:33 <vargadanis> Progman, there is thanks for pointing it out however the train was comging from the 3rd station should have made a difference in this case
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12:46:18 <Progman> what about the "allow turn in station" setting?
12:46:42 <vargadanis> trains do get sometimes turn around
12:47:13 <vargadanis> peter1138, does this signal layout make any difference?
12:47:23 <vargadanis> I could try it see what happens
12:48:18 <peter1138> one of the concepts of path signals is safe waiting points
12:48:46 <peter1138> only place signals where trains can wait safely
12:48:55 <peter1138> safe in this context means without blocking other routes
12:49:21 <peter1138> your trains may end up waiting in the station slightly longer when it's busy, but they shouldn't block each other like that
12:50:14 <vargadanis> I just "transformed" that station
12:50:31 <vargadanis> as well I forgot to place 2 exist signals on the further end of the 4 tracks
12:50:43 <vargadanis> so that kinda screwed it up too
12:51:03 <vargadanis> my delivered cargo graph is scillating that is a good indication something is Fd up :)
12:51:26 <vargadanis> btw this layout seems to be easier to look over
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12:57:13 <vargadanis> awesome... I can see the actual throughput of the station increase
12:57:42 <Svish> These two-ended train sets, do they have twice the power they say they have? Or said in a different way, when I have two train engines in the same train, is it good to replace those two with a single two-ended engine? Or should I have two of them (taking up 4 slots rather than 2) to have the same "effect"?
12:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that was changed back and forth a few times...
12:59:31 <Eddi|zuHause> to double check, build such a train, and look in the train details (there are both ends summed up)
12:59:33 <Svish> also, if I use the replace feature, will it create two double-ended engines if I have two single-ended ones?
12:59:52 <Svish> should be a an option to change that perhaps
13:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but how to do it properly, so the next person won't request a slightly different behaviour again next week?
13:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> see the various threads about consist-replacing
13:05:34 <Svish> I think it should just be an option in the replace dialog. some checkboxes or something. Retain number of engines or something
13:11:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. and the next person wants to retain the first or the last wagon, or add new wagons, or choose a refit option, or ...
13:12:20 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: typical christmas song?
13:12:52 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, the final power wasn't changed, just the way it's used in the vehicles
13:13:10 <peter1138> then it became irrelevant because bjarni disallowed dual head parts to be split up
13:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i meant whether half or full power is displayed in the purchase menu
13:14:26 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I guess
13:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that was fun in TTO when you reached the wagon limit, you could build half TGV and half EuroStar :)
13:17:26 <Svish> Eddi|zuHause: all those should be options in the replace menu I think, per replace "order". would also be cool if I could tell a single train to "add two wagons of type x to yourself the next time you get service"
13:17:28 <TrueBrain> and there goes the coop server once again
13:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Svish: but then you get so many options that the GUI will be incomprehensible
13:19:17 <Svish> anyways, another question, I started a multiplayer game, but I'd like to change one of the advanced options. Can I do that somehow? It's locked in the options tree
13:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> only by quitting, loading in single player, changing, loading in multiplayer again
13:26:02 <Svish> ok. that seems to have worked :)
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13:57:45 <Svish> what is an Implicit order?
14:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a record of stops the train has made which you did not order
14:07:28 <vargadanis> Svish, if you set the order to be non-stop, the implicit orders will go away
14:07:59 <vargadanis> ^ that works very well
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14:27:29 <Svish> vargadanis: what's that?
14:28:58 <Rubidium> his forum session to hijack ;)
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15:00:50 <JoeyJo0> I have a question regarding trains and its silly pathfinding. I can provide a screenshot in a moment.
15:02:23 <JoeyJo0> So, I'm using a 2-line system, up and down, quite standard.
15:02:57 <JoeyJo0> And there is this junction that switches from 2 lines to 4 lines, of which 2 lines go to Station A and 2 go to Station B.
15:03:09 <JoeyJo0> I've ordered the train to go to station A, but it keeps going to station B.
15:03:40 <JoeyJo0> I'm preparing the screenshot now.
15:06:51 <JoeyJo0> Wait, nevermind. It was a pathfinding error caused by an unreachable order.
15:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> for pathfinding problems, screenshots are usually useless
15:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> savegames are necessary
15:07:58 <JoeyJo0> Still, it might've been an incorrectly placed sign.
15:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> or a track that is not electrified, or a wrong waypoint, or ...
15:09:44 <JoeyJo0> All my tracks are electrified.
15:09:53 <JoeyJo0> I've never placed non-electrified tracks.
15:10:22 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, but we don't know that
15:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the weirdest pathfinding problem i have seen was some guy who had trains running in circles
15:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> turned out the penalty for full platforms was higher than going around enough circles to reach 10 signals
15:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (after 10 signals, track reservation is not accounted for anymore)
15:14:19 <JoeyJo0> So, he had a track going round and he wanted to have a train bouncing between two stations?
15:15:23 <JoeyJo0> Argh, I hate it when local authorities refuse to allow me to wreck streets ;/
15:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> JoeyJo0: he had a terminus station with waiting tracks before it
15:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause> JoeyJo0: and when the station was full, the trains did not wait in the waiting tracsk
15:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but kept going in circles
15:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> until one platform was free again, then they happily waited
15:18:10 <JoeyJo0> I like my relatively simple system.
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15:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... i was just wondering why i can't reach devzone :p
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16:01:29 <weirdy> ah, problem solved itself naturally
16:06:17 <vargadanis> the power plant isn't accepting anything, how could that be?
16:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> not all tiles of the power station accept coal, use the [?] tool
16:08:17 <weirdy> I'd always ensure that stations are as close to the industry as possible.
16:11:38 <vargadanis> Eddi|zuHause, you were right, the tiles I had the stations on didn't accept coal :s
16:12:00 <vargadanis> I placed another station to overlap not connected to the roads with CTRL pressed and it solved the problem
16:12:10 <vargadanis> gonna have to pay more attention next time
16:15:30 <JoeyJo0> I'm dealing with a quantum train here.
16:15:40 <JoeyJo0> As long as I observe it, it chooses the right path.
16:15:51 <JoeyJo0> But once I don't watch it, it goes in directions it shouldn't go.
16:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a Heisentrain
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17:09:54 <vargadanis> finally found a way to compete with admiralAI :)
17:10:13 <vargadanis> quite a challenge :)
17:20:15 <SmatZ_> so... I actually bought a game... for mere ~12Eur... and my silly DVD drive fails to read it :(
17:20:25 <SmatZ_> so I have to get it "ilegally" anyway...
17:21:07 <SmatZ_> it's even worse than the last time I bought a DVD movie
17:21:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that should teach you :p
17:21:26 <SmatZ_> where it failed only at few places, where the movie got stuck...
17:21:30 <Wolf01> I once bought a game but the DRM don't let me to play it with wine, so I have to play the russian version which is DRM free
17:21:34 <SmatZ_> but this time, it won't even detect the DVD...
17:38:05 <Elukka> i had to torrent victoria 2 to be able to play it with a friend because the steam version i had bought didn't work
17:38:24 <Elukka> legal download of some train sim didn't work either...
17:39:24 <Elukka> windows insisted i hadn't bought it one time too and was very smug about it
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18:03:55 <JoeyJo0> Is there a way to quickly close all windows?
18:04:53 <JoeyJo0> My screen usually gets really cluttered when routing trains.
18:09:25 <XaTriX> ottd are unique threaded no ?
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18:11:43 <Rubidium> XaTriX: that's debatable
18:13:04 <XaTriX> im talking about serv prog
18:14:12 <Rubidium> then it's still debatable
18:14:41 <Rubidium> e.g. savegame compression happens in a separate thread, so it's not 100% single threaded
18:15:25 <XaTriX> so it didnt use the power of multicores ?
18:19:54 <Rubidium> as I said, it's debatable
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18:28:43 <XaTriX> in fact its to choose a proc to host a game, and know if quad (or more) is good or not..
18:29:19 <XaTriX> because with IS+ECS (and more) its use a lot of proc power..
18:29:20 <Rubidium> chose one that is slower than the clients you want to be able to join
18:29:59 <Rubidium> anything faster than the CPU of the clients will disconnect the clients for lagging behind when the game gets crowded
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18:30:42 <Rubidium> the server and clients calculate the whole game state, but the clients also have to handle drawing
18:31:27 <XaTriX> even with good cpu the server lag with a lot of trains (400+)
18:33:29 <XaTriX> = middle cpu (delete "even") .. my english.. is like my president..
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18:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23671 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
18:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hebrew - 1 changes by rril
18:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 10 changes by fanioz
18:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 123 changes by telk5093
18:45:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:45:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 32 changes by nglekhoi
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18:47:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23672 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt: -Fix: WT3 validation failure
18:50:01 <JoeyJo0> I hate it when trains get stuck ;/
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19:48:59 <vargadanis> I purched one of the competitor AIs network all together and i suddenly got 500 vechicles
19:49:06 <vargadanis> that qty is unmanagable
19:53:37 <andythenorth> anybody like to help me with some CPP?
19:53:48 <andythenorth> nothing says 'christmas' like a pre-processor
19:54:30 <andythenorth> now concatenate that with another string?
19:55:03 <Alberth> ## iirc, but only in replacement context
19:55:24 <andythenorth> so I have #define THIS_VEH_ID veh_truck_test
19:55:46 <andythenorth> and I also want to define switch_articulated_veh_truck_test
19:55:53 * Alberth opens a terminal and an editor
19:56:18 <andythenorth> I als want to define str_name_veh_truck_test
19:56:24 <Alberth> bummer, x.cpp already exists :p
19:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CETS does that
19:56:43 <andythenorth> so does FIRS but I don't understand it :P
19:57:01 <andythenorth> if I learn it from scratch for BANDIT, I might be able to understand FIRS :D
19:57:03 <Eddi|zuHause> file.write('#define VEH_ID(...) %s_%s_%s ## __VA_ARGS__\n'%(comp, ident, i))
19:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and then you write VEH_ID(test) etc.
19:57:41 <andythenorth> you were asleep during the lecture about 'code generators are evil' ? :P
19:58:15 <Alberth> no, /me likes evil toys :D
19:58:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no place else where i can live out my evil side :p
19:59:11 * andythenorth didn't do comp sci
19:59:17 <andythenorth> I had to learn about evil by doing it
19:59:33 <andythenorth> I don't think I'll write a code generator again
19:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> just "#define VEH_ID(...) veh_truck_test ## __VA_AGRS__"
20:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and then "VEH_ID(switch_articulated)"
20:00:34 <Eddi|zuHause> or "VEH_ID(name)"
20:00:46 <JoeyJo0> Preprocessors, eh? You should use #define ; ;fork();
20:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> JoeyJo0: just we're not writing C code
20:02:04 <JoeyJo0> There's a fork() in C++ too.
20:02:18 <Eddi|zuHause> JoeyJo0: we're not writing C++ code either
20:02:28 <Alberth> there is not, it's a library :)
20:02:29 <JoeyJo0> <andythenorth> anybody like to help me with some CPP?
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20:03:34 <Svish> hm. is there a way to prevent unused industries from dying off? can't get to all of them at once kind of, and would like there to still be industries around when I get to them :p
20:03:48 <andythenorth> Svish: use an industry newgrf
20:04:04 <andythenorth> you'll have to start a new game though :|
20:04:04 <JoeyJo0> Svish, in my world, industry closes as much as opens.
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20:04:51 <andythenorth> yeah that's perfect
20:05:22 <Svish> JoeyJo0: ah, maybe that happens here too, just that I don't notice...
20:05:26 <Svish> andythenorth: what's that?
20:05:45 <andythenorth> Svish: from the in-game content service
20:05:56 <andythenorth> try Manual Industries, or OpenGFX+ Industries
20:06:58 <Alberth> Svish: the game tries to maintain a balance by opening new ones, which works quite nicely, unless you play in a large world with lots of industries, then it cannot keep up
20:07:21 <JoeyJo0> Alberth: I'm in a large world, it keeps up fine.
20:08:05 <Alberth> Svish: or if you want a totally different set of industries, you can play FIRS, which does not close industries by default
20:08:38 <Alberth> JoeyJo0: ok, could be, I only tested the case where you literally service no industry at all.
20:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> ECS has parameters for not closing industries
20:09:22 <Alberth> Svish: FYI: ECS is also an industry set :)
20:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we were at that stage 3 years ago already :)
20:13:43 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yup :)
20:13:50 <TrueBrain> at least I can now press the button and get those sprites :P
20:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but... they're still not cubicles! :p
20:18:13 <vargadanis> wow FIRS looks pretty neat
20:18:22 <vargadanis> is it downloadable with online content thing?
20:18:52 <vargadanis> so the new indu types will be turned on too such as the bauxite mine or the fishing grounds/
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20:19:52 <andythenorth> vargadanis: I would wait a couple of days before trying FIRS
20:20:00 <andythenorth> new version gets released in the next few days
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20:21:22 <Alberth> vargadanis: don't forget to load a newgrf for the new cargoes too
20:21:39 <andythenorth> [vehicle newgrf]
20:21:53 <vargadanis> okkay I can wait :)
20:22:34 <andythenorth> new FIRS has about 500 improvements compared to version on content service
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20:23:07 <vargadanis> devs must have put a xxxx amount of work into it
20:25:22 <andythenorth> not some devs :P
20:28:32 <Alberth> vargadanis: andythenorth is the main author of FIRS :)
20:30:06 <andythenorth> can CPP pre-pend a string?
20:30:21 <andythenorth> otherwise my text identifiers will be things like 'veh_truck_test_str_name'
20:30:27 <andythenorth> which isn't good nml style :P
20:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, why is that relevant?
20:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> just put the __VA_ARGS__ before the ##
20:34:23 <andythenorth> sprites/nml/test_vehicle.pnml:1:66: error: '##' cannot appear at either end of a macro expansion
20:34:29 <andythenorth> #define THIS_VEH_ID(...) veh_truck_test __VA_ARGS__ ##
20:34:55 <SpComb> it pastes two adjacent tokens together
20:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no
20:35:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the ## must be between the two strings you want to connect
20:35:51 <SpComb> but, uh, not sure how that'd work with something like __VA_ARGS__ that expands to multiple words
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20:37:40 <andythenorth> I don't suppose cpp has equivalent of str.upper() ?
20:37:40 <vargadanis> ohh... didn't know he was DA man behind the project
20:37:54 <vargadanis> andythenorth, nope but let me double chk
20:38:40 <vargadanis> andythenorth, nope...
20:38:46 <vargadanis> the built in strings do not support that
20:39:02 <vargadanis> many C++ dever uses boost lib
20:39:26 <andythenorth> my nml string identifiers will have to be lower case
20:39:34 <andythenorth> doesn't bother me too much
20:39:53 <vargadanis> tho a simple macro could do it
20:40:19 <Rubidium> too bad that nforenum and grfcodec don't support boost
20:40:37 <andythenorth> too much magic = more time spent debugging the magic than the actual grf code :D
20:40:49 <vargadanis> andythenorth, you would want all the letters be uppercase, right?
20:41:16 <andythenorth> but the initial strings I'm concatenating are lower
20:41:28 <vargadanis> I'd happily put together something
20:42:17 <andythenorth> it's only a matter of nml style
20:43:22 <Rubidium> maybe you can bug a nml dev about adding a toupper for variable names ;)
20:44:17 <SpComb> it can't uppercase, thankfully :)
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20:55:16 <andythenorth> not enough for my comments :P
21:00:07 <andythenorth> air drag co-efficient
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21:05:35 <vargadanis> will it count how aerodynamic the trains are?
21:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for trucks that's usually pretty high
21:06:24 <andythenorth> that's what made me think of it
21:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but also usually does not matter much, because of low speed
21:06:31 <andythenorth> and some trucks are more aero than others
21:06:38 <andythenorth> it affects fuel economy not speed
21:06:48 <andythenorth> I can fake it by run cost better
21:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the effect is much more noticeable the higher the speed
21:08:00 <Eddi|zuHause> like the steam engines in the 1930s, when streamlining was "in"
21:08:01 <andythenorth> noticeable at 65mph?
21:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the fuel consumption only balanced the increased maintenance effort beyond 130km/h
21:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and hardly any steam engines actually went that fast
21:08:54 <Eddi|zuHause> in typical service
21:09:01 <andythenorth> I think I'll ignore that prop :)
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21:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the fastest german steam train in regular operation was the Henschel-Wegmann-Zug in the late 30s, which had a scheduled top speed of 160km/h and average speed of 111km/h on the line Berlin-Dresden
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21:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> a speed record not even broken by the ICE on the same route
21:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (although that is due to an additional stop)
21:14:15 <Rubidium> so it's not on the route where a stop is regularly forgotten?
21:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that is Berlin-Hannover (with stops alternating in Stendal and Wolfsburg)
21:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that track is weird anyway
21:16:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a remnant of a "transit route" from west germany to west berlin, avoiding the major east german cities inbetween
21:17:28 <Rubidium> it's not such a busy route though
21:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the traditional route used to be Hannover-Braunschweig-(border)-Magdeburg-Potsdam-(border)-Berlin(west)
21:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> which is further south
21:19:06 <Rubidium> as there's more than enough time to drive for a while "against" the traffic there (to go to Stendal)
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21:20:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Stendal is a rather minor town which happened to be along the track after it was planned in the late 80s
21:20:52 <Eddi|zuHause> in a rather less densely populated area
21:22:28 <Rubidium> ah well, my (usual) train stops in all those lesser towns
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21:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and Wolfsburg isn't that big either, only relevant because of the VW factory
21:24:17 <Rubidium> yup, their test track is pretty close to the tracks
21:24:49 <Rubidium> anyhow, the ICE isn't significantly faster/more comfortable for my 'usual' long distance trip to Berlin
21:25:42 <APTX> going to berlin tomorrow?
21:27:37 <Rubidium> I'd be a whopping 8 minutes faster for a ~6 hour trip
21:28:20 <__ln__> btw, does VW have any bus/truck type products?
21:28:45 <andythenorth> __ln__: in Brazil yes
21:29:24 <andythenorth> why do I know this stuff :P
21:29:54 <andythenorth> also, Germany is weird :P
21:29:59 <andythenorth> wrt transport routes
21:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's not a route i usually would travel :p
21:30:38 * andythenorth lives in a country where nearly all routes go via the capital city
21:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's because germany had no capital city in the 1840s
21:31:11 <Rubidium> poor andythenorth ;)
21:31:21 <Eddi|zuHause> when the railway network was developed
21:31:26 <andythenorth> it makes route finding easy :P
21:31:36 <Rubidium> even here many major routes don't go to the capital
21:31:50 <andythenorth> all destinations are via London, or on the way to London, or on the way from London :P
21:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well holland is small, so direct routes are more common :)
21:32:22 <Rubidium> even the international train to Berlin doesn't start in the capital; it starts at the airport and stops at some of the "outer" stations of the capital
21:33:03 <andythenorth> France - everything is wrt Paris, except the cote d'azur bit
21:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Amsterdam is weirder than Berlin, certainly :)
21:33:36 <andythenorth> spain, everything is wrt Madrid
21:33:54 <andythenorth> Switzerland very weird
21:34:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no knowledge about the italian train network
21:34:08 <andythenorth> USA - screamingly insane
21:34:17 <andythenorth> India - very weird
21:34:24 <MNIM> eddi: nor did it have a capital in the last century
21:34:32 * MNIM looks at the berlin wall
21:34:42 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well, Italians don't have much knowledge about their train network either
21:35:33 <__ln__> in my experience italian trains worked very nicely, which is odd, because it's italy after all.
21:36:09 <andythenorth> Italian railways run on Indian time in my experience
21:37:41 * MNIM tries to refrain from a Mussolini comment
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22:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> # ich wollte dir nur mal eben sagen
22:31:52 <Eddi|zuHause> # daß du das größte für mich bist
22:33:57 <andythenorth> trucks are governed by a complex mix of regulation, which dictates length, number of axles etc
22:34:09 * andythenorth ignores most of that :P
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23:07:22 <Snail_> just curious... have you ever tried to use the current grfcodec (5.1.3) with the new maintenance factor settings for tracks?
23:16:11 <Snail_> planetmaker: I see, thanks
23:16:47 <Snail_> I just tried to code it with grfcodec (latest version) and it resulted in a linter failure, think I'll just post it on the forums
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23:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Snail_: that's nforenum then
continue to next day ⏵
