IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-24
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00:06:34 <XaTriX> oukey it works, thx ;)
00:07:26 <XaTriX> but... "server full" & there is free slots oO
00:08:03 <kais58> is there a free company slot/spectator slot?
00:09:35 <XaTriX> (according to website : 7/15)
00:09:48 <kais58> are spectators disabled then?
00:10:16 <XaTriX> i didnt put informations for companies/spectator on connect command
00:10:48 <XaTriX> connect ip:port#1 for companie 1 or 255 for spectating
00:11:01 <XaTriX> but hard to get newgrf so
00:11:14 <kais58> when I've joined games from command line it's either out me in as spectator or made a new company every time
00:11:25 <kais58> with 'connect localhost'
00:11:45 <kais58> so we ended up with lots of empty companies
00:13:11 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: isn't there a attribute min_compatible_version or something like that for?
00:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: oh right, forgot that
00:30:27 <XaTriX> whats the ports to newgrf gestion ?
00:39:47 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
00:54:47 <XaTriX> doesnt work because the servconf is not by default
00:55:15 <XaTriX> so 3984 work for connexion but i cant get server infos & contents from the server list
00:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> then you allowed TCP connection, but not UDP connection
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01:03:42 <kais58> only port 3979 (or whatever the port is set to) on TCP is required to connect to a server as a client for inbound connections on the server side, I have empirical eveidence to support this, but you'd need to use command line to connect. also you can't (as far as I know) tunnel udp down an ssh tunnel
01:04:35 <kais58> so it wouldn't appear in your server list even if you manually added it if udp isn't probably working
01:05:52 <TrueBrain> XaTriX: like I told you, you will have to use the command line, as doing UDP will be tricky
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01:17:00 <FLHerne> Is this IRC client working?
01:19:16 <FLHerne> Finally, this laptop's useful for something other than OpenTTD!
01:19:34 <FLHerne> I can use it to talk about OpenTTD as well...
01:21:32 <FLHerne> Actually, my web browser's working now too, so I can look at the OpenTTD wiki and read OpenTTD forums!
01:22:18 <FLHerne> And if I sort out email, I could send OpenTTD-related messages to everyone
01:22:43 <TrueBrain> welcome to the club!
01:28:53 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: What's the reason for not subdividing <= 6lu? Implementation problems or just not enough benefits to be worth the work?
01:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be fairly trivial, but i did not think it was necessary
01:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> we can adjust the subdividing if the curve behaviour is weird
01:30:46 <XaTriX> how can i get newgrf list on one server on the net ?
01:31:01 <michi_cc> Would your scheme also work with two parts or does it needs 1/3 parts?
01:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it's best with 3 parts, so the turning point is in the middle
01:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> 2 parts would need some slight enhancements
01:33:31 <michi_cc> So no subdividing of 2lu vehicles? :p
01:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i clamp the length to between 3lu and 16lu :)
01:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> 2 parts might Just Work (tm) but it is untested
01:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> just change the table, and the slices in the gfx.pnml
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08:56:21 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23666 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Document: the usual pre-Christmas documentation spree
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09:11:51 <andythenorth> Terkhen: how did your first year of work go? :)
09:12:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23667 /tags/1.2.0-beta1/: -Release: 1.2.0-beta1
09:14:19 <Terkhen> andythenorth: fine, I'm still taking the courses :P
09:15:53 <Rubidium> 2/3rds on the way to r25k ;)
09:20:04 <Wolf01> uhm, my pc seem to have some very problems this morning
09:25:18 <Wolf01> bah, started with 3 pistons
09:26:03 <Wolf01> Some times I feel like the audio service is trolling me
09:32:08 <andythenorth> Rubidium: would diagonal rivers take us closer to r25k?
09:32:54 <Rubidium> you can make those quite easily with NewGRFs, can't you?
09:33:07 <Rubidium> just make the inner corners quite a lot bigger
09:35:09 <andythenorth> not quite the same though :P
09:35:13 <Terkhen> 1333 Doc commits would also get us closer to r25k :P
09:35:29 <Rubidium> that'd basically what an implementation in OpenTTD would get (maybe with dedicated sprites)
09:36:17 <andythenorth> teaching the river generator to go L-R-L-R-L etc? :P
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09:37:05 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the river generator is basically random
09:38:51 <andythenorth> it follows paths though? Or do I misunderstand?
09:39:25 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it's 2 stage
09:40:24 <Rubidium> the first stage gets a 'random' high point and finds the closest lower point for each height level from the previous height level (recursing to find the sea / a valley); if it reaches a valley it makes a lake
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09:41:29 <Rubidium> the second stage lets the pathfinder find a path between the "waypoints" found in stage 1, where the cost of each step is random. So eventually it will go to that lower point, but it most likely won't go straight
09:42:35 <andythenorth> so the long straight sections in rivers on my maps are just pure random chance?
09:44:55 <Rubidium> there's a setting to make the route more random/less straight
09:49:58 <andythenorth> 0 is not a valid value for that setting
09:52:02 <andythenorth> Rubidium: what's the upper limit for that setting?
09:52:40 <andythenorth> that was my guess :P
10:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the "problem" with just making the river banks straighter is that you can't put rail on the other half :(
10:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (unlike half-shore tiles)
10:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't terraform the tile to half slope either
10:07:36 <andythenorth> rail on the river banks I don't care
10:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... nobody made CETS bug reports yet...
10:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i assume everything works perfectly then :p
10:09:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why not put rail on the other half? Not enough bits?
10:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> idea: tiles remember whether they were river tiles in the past, and if they are cleared, they re-flood
10:15:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker somewhat did that for locks
10:15:45 <andythenorth> it annoys me when a river doesn't reconnect
10:16:01 <andythenorth> could we cache the origin point and run the pathfinder again?
10:16:14 <andythenorth> ^ might be more interesting with terraforming....
10:16:35 <andythenorth> I guess caching random is an interesting computing problem :P
10:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> storing the origin point of a river is not the problem. repeatedly checking whether it's still connected to the end point is
10:17:47 <andythenorth> hadn't thought of that :P
10:18:06 <andythenorth> store an array of tile x / y indexes?
10:18:32 <andythenorth> if (tile is bulldozed) { do_stuff }
10:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that implies storing a "river pool"
10:20:03 <Eddi|zuHause> which might be the dreaded TMWFTLB
10:21:18 * andythenorth thinks GS might *not* be the answer to every feature request :P
10:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> a GS could do that, but it has to retroactively guess what was the origin point, as the world generator has already forgotten this data at this point
10:22:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and it cannot react on clear-commands
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10:26:13 <Rubidium> what about man made rivers (scenario editor)?
10:27:28 <Wolf01> what about lively rivers?
10:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> my idea would be totally independent of that. you'd only ever turn clear tiles into river tiles in the tile loop, no rerouting (this would be disabled in the scenario editor)
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10:45:10 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that implies storing a "river pool" <-- imho that's a good way to go, though
10:45:20 <planetmaker> it'd allow to attach 'character' to rivers, too. And names
10:47:08 <peter1138> hmm, right, off to tesco
10:47:16 <peter1138> hopefully not too busy
10:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there are non-busy shops on christmas eve? :p
11:05:58 <Zuu> Lovely comment "... , really i see only the problem of developing it." :-)
11:06:59 <__ln__> this year: +1 degree C, barely any snow; last year: -31 degrees, plenty of snow
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11:13:23 <Rubidium> Zuu: isn't that always the problem?
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11:32:31 <Guest21583> here is something I have been thinking on ... Our faculty at the uni has a class called the basics of computer programming where we are to learn about algorithmic thinking, Jackson figures and whatnot
11:32:52 <Guest21583> to teach people how to break down more complex tasks to simpler ones, TTD is perfect
11:33:11 <Guest21583> when zou set up the routes, depo, conditional gotos and similar things
11:33:37 <Guest21583> pretty much there is everything built into TTD already starting from loops to conditions
11:34:17 <Guest21583> would it be much of an undertaking to fork or patch TTD to let us set up routes with handwritten code?
11:34:55 <Guest21583> when you manually set the route for a train.. go to there, load full cargo, go there unload, maintain if needed
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11:35:39 <vargadanis> okkay.. I was andrea, then Guest and now vargadanis :)
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11:35:48 <Rubidium> you mean controlling all actions of all trains manually?
11:36:21 <vargadanis> writing a simple language parser isn't too complicated
11:36:36 <vargadanis> integrating it into TTD is a bigger challenge
11:36:54 <vargadanis> the faculty has huge server farms where each of the students could run their simulations
11:37:11 <vargadanis> or 1 big ass simulation where all the students share the same world
11:37:15 <Terkhen> it would be way simpler to use AIs / goal scripts if you want to teach coding
11:37:18 <vargadanis> see who wins at the end of the semester
11:37:21 <planetmaker> vargadanis: you can control the routes directly by placing waypoints behind junctions
11:38:08 <planetmaker> But writing AIs or goal scripts is the better thing IMHO to teach these things on
11:38:09 <vargadanis> planetmaker, what I meant was: inted of a GUI interface, let the users type in commands such as: MOVE TRAIN TO "station2"
11:38:35 <planetmaker> but... an AI does that. Not?
11:38:46 <vargadanis> planetmaker, yeah, could be, dunno
11:38:46 <Terkhen> yes, an AI can do that
11:38:50 <planetmaker> If you're an AI, you can always change orders continuously, if you want
11:38:52 <vargadanis> havent dug into AIs yet
11:38:57 <vargadanis> but that could work
11:39:15 <Rubidium> but then you won't be influencing path finding
11:39:24 <planetmaker> no, of course not
11:39:33 <vargadanis> so people program AIs and the complexity of the AI could increase as the semester goes on
11:39:39 <Rubidium> and the major question is: what level of commands are you thinking of?
11:39:54 <vargadanis> well the course is for 1st year students
11:39:59 <planetmaker> Or rather: what should be the goal of the programming course?
11:39:59 <vargadanis> the most basics of the things
11:40:13 <Rubidium> move to station, or move to next tile + go left + move to next tile + start breaking + ...
11:40:26 <vargadanis> there are 2 courses going on at the same time: these basics and a programming in C course
11:40:39 <planetmaker> well. This is squirrel
11:40:54 <vargadanis> by the end of the semester people are to know C, linked lists, basic data structures, basic modeling and whatnot
11:41:04 <planetmaker> But does such course really need the basic 'move one tile forward' thing?
11:41:34 <vargadanis> I do not think breaking it down that much would make much sense
11:42:27 <vargadanis> do you guys know Scratch?
11:42:28 <vargadanis> it a stupid GUI thingie that is used to help people understand algorithmic thinking
11:42:47 <vargadanis> I hate it and so does most of the folks here but is being used
11:43:04 <vargadanis> I thought TTD would offer an alternative with more fun and more possibilities
11:43:31 <vargadanis> and involving a Computer Science Faculty to a project like this would mean great things to TTD :)
11:43:58 <vargadanis> best thing I can do right now: write a forum post about this idea and see what we can come up with
11:44:04 <vargadanis> btw: the teacher was more the eager to give it a shot
11:44:25 <vargadanis> well professor rather with 2 PHDs
11:45:13 <Rubidium> as introduction it might be a bit steep; simply giving vehicles an order is relatively easy, however you need to build infrastructure
11:45:45 <Rubidium> and the building of infrastructure is algorithmically quite complex (at least I'd say for some first year CS students)
11:46:45 <Rubidium> and that infrastructure building is what you need to start with
11:47:09 <Rubidium> unless you limit it to road vehicles and already have placed a nice road network between towns and industries
11:47:51 <Rubidium> the the infrastructure building is much easier; only building of stations and depots that are connected to roads (under the premise that the roads are fully connected)
11:48:13 <Rubidium> once they have mastered that you can get them to possibly optimise their routes by building shortcuts
11:48:36 <Rubidium> that should teach them some basic path finding skills and the knowledges how to build roads
11:49:12 <Rubidium> finally you'd end up with a generated map with no roads except inner town roads where you let the students build the actual road network
11:50:20 <vargadanis> how this works is that every week the students had to do some silly something in that Scratch thing... would not take long to generate a map every week where the students were to do specific things
11:50:36 <vargadanis> the most basic one is to let the vechicle go from there to there
11:50:44 <vargadanis> with prebuilt infrastructure
11:51:00 <vargadanis> Rubidium, thanx for the tip
11:51:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Rubidium
11:51:55 *** Rubidium changes topic to "1.1.4, 1.2.0-beta1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only"
11:52:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: -o Rubidium
11:54:53 <Rubidium> just like _Static_assert ;)
11:55:20 <vargadanis> there are a lot of new things
11:55:53 <Rubidium> complex and imaginary numbers... who would've imagined that?
11:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine the complexity!
11:56:38 <vargadanis> yeah well those seem kind of things that could have been omitted from a programming language spec
11:57:04 <vargadanis> but won't hurt to have them
11:57:22 <vargadanis> I am keen on trying the new stuffz... will look it up when gcc will support the new standard
11:58:29 <vargadanis> static const char _ _func_ _[] = "function-name";
12:00:04 <Rubidium> quite a bit might already be supported, otherwise I'd reckon not before march
12:01:38 <vargadanis> seems like the C course at the uni will have to be updated
12:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause> they should start working on C++2x now :)
12:02:17 <vargadanis> these specs should be an interesting read when I have a bit more time
12:02:46 <vargadanis> is it normal to be so excited about a language update? :)
12:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you should worry about that anymore :p
12:17:25 <Elukka> looks like the brakeman's cab was removed but the platform is still there
12:17:58 <Elukka> i've heard that around the time the wheelsets were changed from spoked to disc wheels some of them ran around with one spoked, one disc set
12:18:18 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: you know things, until how long would cars like the G10 been in common use?
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12:37:59 <andythenorth> does nml include a cargo translation table?
12:39:46 <planetmaker> you need to define it, of course, if you want one
12:39:59 <planetmaker> look for 'cargotable' in the docs
12:42:50 <andythenorth> so there isn't one bundled already? :)
12:43:14 <planetmaker> well. No. How can it know which cargos you need?
12:43:38 <planetmaker> well... could. somewhat
12:43:47 <planetmaker> but... that's difficult
12:46:32 <andythenorth> is there one I can steal somewhere?
12:49:04 <planetmaker> yes... opengfx+ trains or rv
12:49:21 <planetmaker> they should contain all cargos which are defined in the newgrf specs
12:53:35 <andythenorth> some useful defines there too
13:07:09 <planetmaker> yes. Mind that those defines there don't make use of the new cargo entries, andythenorth
13:07:35 <planetmaker> you probably don't want to use the bitmask property there to adjust individual cargo refits
13:07:55 <planetmaker> rather make use of the newer properties which deal with force-allow and force-deny by label directly
13:08:12 <planetmaker> this hasn't been changed with those newgrfs yet
13:08:13 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r23668 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix: the 'Configure' button in the 'AI / Game Configuration' window didn't get enabled when activating a GameScript
13:08:38 <planetmaker> cargo_allow_refit and cargo_disallow_refit are your friends there
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13:20:36 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
13:21:47 <mib_z2fbmm> want someone who would write a new custom grf for me
13:23:07 <planetmaker> post your sprites in the newgrf development section. And layout your ideas there
13:23:38 <planetmaker> and yes, I also want a slave who does work for me upon request ;-)
13:29:32 <planetmaker> according to my accounting department, I should charge 70€ per hour
13:31:06 <mib_z2fbmm> fine ill pay you a 100, if you do it :)
13:31:37 <mib_z2fbmm> want to be able to custom all speeds of all vehicles including power of trains
13:32:35 <planetmaker> that's not feasible. Unless you limit the scope to "no newgrf vehicles"
13:33:30 <mib_z2fbmm> well anyway i can thats what i want to do
13:33:32 <orudge> mib_z2fbmm: it sounds like you want TTDAlter 5.0
13:33:35 <orudge> Unfortunately, I've not written it yet.
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13:34:00 <mib_z2fbmm> thats correct orudge
13:34:12 <orudge> In theory I have plans, in practice I have no time.
13:34:19 <orudge> But you never know, we shall see.
13:34:57 <planetmaker> orudge: but... that won't work for openttd ;-)
13:35:07 <orudge> planetmaker: well, it'll operate on NewGRFs
13:35:11 <orudge> but not any old NewGRF
13:35:26 <orudge> it'll just let somebody who wants to tweak the standard TTD vehicles do that, and I guess create simple NewGRF sets
13:35:44 <orudge> but that's the theory; as I say, it doesn't exist and isn't likely to any time soon
13:36:19 <planetmaker> orudge: but with the engine override... not sure you can parametrize the grfID
13:36:27 <planetmaker> or it'll get very messy
13:37:01 <orudge> er, well, I'm not sure.
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14:10:47 * andythenorth had vehicle length issues with an aRV
14:13:05 <planetmaker> have a merry Christmas everyone
14:13:31 <andythenorth> you too planetmaker
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14:32:54 * andythenorth could just use on vehicle for all BANDIT trailers
14:33:01 <andythenorth> and a *lot* of cb36 :P
14:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that again fails autoreplace...
14:33:33 <andythenorth> I thought it smelt funny :)
14:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> we use almost no cb36 in CETS
14:37:16 <peter1138> why is everyone going? :(
14:38:35 * andythenorth is however going to wake the toddler up
14:38:40 <andythenorth> so no more code for a bit :(
14:38:51 <andythenorth> just as I started to figure pnml
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15:14:59 <andythenorth> how to template nml
15:15:16 <andythenorth> can I declare 'item' multiple times for the same vehicle?
15:15:28 <andythenorth> and can I do maths?
15:15:33 <andythenorth> for property values?
15:20:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how do I do (some_value / 2) in nml?
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16:01:14 <andythenorth> is it documented?
16:01:19 <andythenorth> I have searched the nml docs
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16:43:14 * Belugas wishes a merry christmas to you all, and goes back with family
16:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes... it's almost present time now...
16:53:53 <Terkhen> Belugas: merry christmas, see you :)
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17:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhen i should do a list of missing features for a release...
17:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> off the top of my head: price, running cost, availability time, length refit
17:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> internally: reusing graphics for multiple vehicles
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17:55:00 <andythenorth> is lack of grf-crawler such a big deal?
17:56:29 <andythenorth> also - am I the only one left here? everyone else seems to be doing christmas :o
17:57:05 <Amis> What's the range of a lumber mill?
18:00:33 <andythenorth> Amis: not sure, but 40 or 20 tiles radius
18:00:42 <andythenorth> not sure if it's a square box, or a circle
18:00:51 <Amis> A square, I'm sure of it
18:01:03 <andythenorth> (I'm reading src, but slightly guessing)
18:01:17 <Amis> I may just fetch the code and try to guess it
18:01:17 <andythenorth> if (CircularTileSearch(&tile, 40, SearchLumberMillTrees, NULL)) { // 40x40 tiles to search.
18:01:28 <andythenorth> industry_cmd.cpp l1087
18:24:00 <Eddi|zuHause> we should have an openttd icon which updates itself with christmas decorations, like the vlc logo!
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18:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23669 /trunk/src/lang/ (estonian.txt hebrew.txt slovenian.txt swedish.txt):
18:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: estonian - 112 changes by notAbot
18:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hebrew - 2 changes by rril
18:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: slovenian - 33 changes by ntadej
18:45:26 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: swedish - 7 changes by Zuu
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20:14:57 <vargadanis> so annoying.. whatever I do admiralAI always beats me in every possible way
20:15:20 <vargadanis> any tips what I might do wrong or what to watch out for?
20:18:51 <andythenorth> why does nml care about the order of properties in an item block?
20:27:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it'll be the same order as in the final grf
20:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what is the actual problem, though?
20:30:09 <andythenorth> seems to be a conflict between cargo class props and the new allowed / disallowed cargo props
20:30:22 <andythenorth> has anyone used those props yet I wonder?
20:43:51 <Eddi|zuHause> another (internal) feature to remember: autogenerate the company-availabilities
20:47:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if I commit, would you mind checking out BANDIT?
20:47:25 <andythenorth> easier than a paste of multiple files
20:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> " Fix: fix previous fix by actually adding the missing file" :)
20:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so what's the offending code?
20:55:02 <andythenorth> test_vehicle.pnml
20:55:18 <andythenorth> there's a set of defines for cargos / classes
20:55:39 <andythenorth> used by templates/template_articulated_truck_item.tnml
21:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> sprites/nml/templates/template_clear_defines.tnml:8:27: warning: extra tokens at end of #undef directive
21:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and what's the actual problem?
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21:07:25 <andythenorth> tested in game, the vehicle doesn't have the refits I'd expect
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21:08:01 <andythenorth> and if the classes are moved after the cargos in the template, there are issues
21:08:37 <andythenorth> [2011-12-24 21:08:22] dbg: [grf] [bandit/bandit.grf:23] FeatureChangeInfo: Unknown property 0x2B of feature 0x01, disabling
21:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm getting 20 passengers and 20 mail
21:10:42 <andythenorth> should be refittable to coal
21:10:58 <andythenorth> I'll disable the trailer
21:11:51 <andythenorth> unarticulated, it's refittable
21:17:47 <andythenorth> nml bug? or ottd bug? :P
21:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see what you're actually doing wrong
21:18:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't get that error message either
21:18:41 * andythenorth tests whether ottd supports those properties
21:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> is it the right property number for road vehicles?
21:20:03 <andythenorth> should be 24 / 25 according to wiki
21:23:31 <andythenorth> can't test it with nfo
21:23:35 <andythenorth> grfcodec doesn't support it
21:24:28 <andythenorth> grfcodec claims support
21:25:06 <andythenorth> ah it's renum that fails :P
21:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so it looks like nml has an obiwan
21:32:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: fixed :)
21:33:11 <andythenorth> hope I fixed that right :P
21:33:21 <andythenorth> surprised I had the rights to push :o
21:49:32 <andythenorth> trucks refit to everything but PAX, right?
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21:59:27 <fjb|tab> Trucks refit to pax in africa...
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22:15:18 <andythenorth> can vehicles access props of other vehicles in the chain yet?
22:16:03 <andythenorth> yes, but not during cb36
22:19:43 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, do i need to increase the railtype limit? :S
22:20:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think so
22:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> what would good design be without ressource limits :)
22:21:03 <andythenorth> what would good spelling be without s limits? :D
22:21:19 * andythenorth can't find a way to use minimal number of trailer IDs
22:21:26 <andythenorth> so I'll just use lots, templated
22:21:46 <andythenorth> fortunately someone created an engine pool :)
22:22:26 <andythenorth> splitting the cargo on a truck over tractor / trailer is an interesting problem
22:22:33 <andythenorth> (for TE purposes on the tractor)
22:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: besides the whole map array stuff, increasing the number of railtypes needs a serious rethinking of the GUI
22:23:00 <andythenorth> are railtypes good, generally?
22:23:06 <andythenorth> I've only used the UKRS 2 ones
22:23:16 <andythenorth> which is basically default + third rail
22:25:28 <peter1138> it's just a drop down list :p
22:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and dropdown lists should generally not exceed 7 entries
22:25:58 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, per-company mapping, up to 16 different types used by one company, "unlimited" types available
22:26:38 <peter1138> probably crappy performance thoug :p
22:28:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: afaik, the 7 thing is unevidenced
22:29:01 <andythenorth> I read something about it sometime this year on a UI blog
22:30:22 <andythenorth> I have photoshop menus that I have to scroll :P
22:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it may not be a hard limit, but it certainly is bad to have endless dropdown lists
22:32:27 <andythenorth> it's better when there are dividers
22:32:57 <andythenorth> if I could be bothered to find the Apple UI guidelines, I think it's 7 per group, with dividers between groups
22:33:05 <andythenorth> but yeah - lots of railtypes puts me off
22:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking more like putting the "traction type"-relevant bits in a separate dropdown from the rest of the railtype properties. so in NuTracks you'd get one dropdown for slow/medium/fast rail, and one for normal/electric/3rd rail
22:38:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and making both available from the rail toolbar
22:38:54 <andythenorth> could make sense
22:39:02 <andythenorth> hierarchical menu?
22:39:24 <andythenorth> or grf authors specify fewer railtypes?
22:39:36 <andythenorth> we're drowning in railtypes, yet we only have two roadtypes :(
22:39:36 <Eddi|zuHause> just two dropdowns next to the convert button
22:40:47 * andythenorth might be obsessing too much about physics
22:41:22 <Ammler> scrolling menu are very bad
22:41:45 <Ammler> then you should have type filter
22:45:38 <andythenorth> happy christmas ;)
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23:25:41 <Wolf01> night, and happy christmas :)
23:33:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23670 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Add ability to adjust brightness of colour after remapping for 32bpp sprites
continue to next day ⏵
