IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-23
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08:57:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23661 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix (r23438): Remaining parts of configuration were skipped when grfcodec/nforenum were not usable.
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10:27:36 <andythenorth> default – length of an RV is 32px?
10:31:58 <andythenorth> photoshop can't draw 0.5 pixels
10:33:10 <peter1138> vehicle spacing is probably 32px
10:42:35 * andythenorth will use 4px per length unit
10:42:42 <andythenorth> should be alright
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11:03:18 <andythenorth> are newgrf docks plausible (other than direct sprite replacement)
11:03:35 <Yexo> as plausible as newgrf airports ;)
11:03:46 <andythenorth> I don't need new layouts
11:04:00 <Yexo> given a working implementation of newgrf airports, newgrf docks (with new layouts) become almost trivial
11:04:34 <andythenorth> sounds like, given 'an economically feasible source of nuclear fusion, cheap power becomes almost trivial' :D
11:04:37 <Yexo> any implementation now would only complicate further work
11:05:19 <Yexo> newgrf airports is doable, I've proven that with my first implementation
11:05:25 <andythenorth> what's needed to complete it?
11:05:41 <Yexo> it just takes a lot of time to work out all issues and make a new clean spec
11:05:52 <andythenorth> be nice to have something for ottd 1.3
11:06:03 <andythenorth> as nearly everything else is now done or nearly done :P
11:06:25 <Yexo> still no cargod*st in trunk, still no moreheightlevels
11:06:39 * andythenorth wonders what's left to do
11:06:41 <Yexo> no underground building, no signals on bridges
11:07:06 <andythenorth> meh to underground and signals on bridges
11:07:19 <andythenorth> no signals on bridges adds to gameplay
11:08:02 <andythenorth> roadtypes is far from essential (but would be nice)
11:08:17 <Yexo> see? enough to be done :)
11:08:19 <MNIM> Yexo: well, last time I heard signals on bridges/tunnels was hacky, at best
11:08:40 <Yexo> MNIM: yes, that's why it's not in trunk
11:08:43 <andythenorth> rv-wagons would be worthwhile, but lack of it can be worked around
11:09:39 <MNIM> the only way it can be done properly is by re-doing completely how OTTD handles tunnels and bridges (IE - change them from wormholes to tiles)
11:10:00 <MNIM> which is, imaginably, a big undertaking
11:10:10 <andythenorth> EZ: done; YAIM: done; auto-refit: done; advanced sprite layouts: done; various newgrf things: done; town control: somewhat done; goals: somewhat done;
11:10:58 <andythenorth> transfer-and-leave-empty by default: done
11:11:35 <andythenorth> don't go poking holes in my happy story :(
11:12:14 <andythenorth> in-game readme and changelog: done
11:12:52 <andythenorth> I think large ships glitch more since EZ in trunk, but can't prove it :P
11:13:29 <andythenorth> newgrf control of vehicle smoke: not done :(
11:16:26 <andythenorth> pretty epic set of new features
11:16:30 <andythenorth> so is OTTD dying?
11:18:29 <andythenorth> dying since the day you were born
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12:32:10 <andythenorth> should turning on transparency speed up ottd?
12:32:17 <andythenorth> in flash games it's the inverse
12:32:57 <andythenorth> as the blend then has to be calculated for every pixel
12:37:17 <Eddi|zuHause> transparency probably not, but invisibility might
12:40:42 <peter1138> also, pausing it should speed it up
12:46:46 <TrueBrain> I do need to try that :P
12:47:32 <appe> ah, the swedish winter is here
12:47:45 <appe> that means christmas, snow and trains that will never, ever be on time.
12:47:45 <TrueBrain> or did it knock on your door?
12:48:03 <appe> it's one of the biggest media tabloi'ders of the swedish winters.
12:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the winter here is kind of a bust this year
12:51:09 <andythenorth> anybody want to join BANDIT?
12:51:26 <andythenorth> I could offload unimportant stuff like...coding
12:51:39 <andythenorth> and do the important work of managing the project
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12:53:09 <vargadanis> hello openttd fans
12:53:16 <vargadanis> how are you people today?
12:55:53 <vargadanis> if I wanted to help out the openttd project a little bit, what would be a good and small thing to do?
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12:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> join the BANDIT team :p
13:00:55 <vargadanis> am I going to have to apprehend innocent bypassing bugs? :)
13:01:04 <vargadanis> looking up the bandit team on wiki
13:11:31 <vargadanis> I could bring a case of beer too :) hehe
13:12:05 <appe> the big x2k-route in sweden has an average wait of 31 minutes, right now.
13:12:13 <appe> 100% are late at least 18 minutes
13:12:25 <appe> more then 50% of the x2000 is more then 40 minutes late.
13:12:31 <appe> (wich is the refund time)
13:13:43 <peter1138> maybe they're just early? :p
13:14:19 <appe> the thing is, so much people use these trains, the smaller routes need to wait for them when they are late
13:14:27 <appe> wich means not a single train in sweden is on time today
13:15:57 <vargadanis> appe, you have such things as refund time?
13:16:12 <vargadanis> damn... if we wait 40 mins we wait and that is it
13:16:41 <appe> yes, we do. although most people do not use it.
13:18:39 <vargadanis> when I play against AdmiralAI, he has his Co. value up so quick and I have no idea how he does that
13:18:56 <vargadanis> it seems the AI knows a few tricks I do not on how to get moving
13:19:11 <vargadanis> when starting a new scenario what tips would you give me ?
13:19:19 <vargadanis> what to watch out for and what not to do
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13:26:42 <andythenorth> truck capacities match to NARS 2 or UKRS 2 (by visual comparison)?
13:26:49 <andythenorth> would be way too low for gameplay
13:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> don't try to "match" things too hard. just make sure it's consistent internally, and then think about comparability with other sets
13:49:17 <andythenorth> trucks need capacities slightly inflated
13:49:24 <andythenorth> otherwise you need way too many
14:24:18 <appe> trains with free wifi <3.
14:24:35 <appe> im on the x40 between vaxjo and jonkoping
14:25:11 <appe> trains with free 3g connection and electrical sockets eveywhere
14:25:22 <appe> and for some reason, the cheapest per milage around here
14:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i knew a guy from växjö university once
14:25:55 <appe> really? long time ago? :)
14:26:00 <appe> i used to live on the university
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14:41:22 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... now the passenger wagons are steaming...
14:49:07 <TrueBrain> alignment is wrong, I know
14:52:19 <andythenorth> could render the sprites needed with ldraw
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15:05:18 <andythenorth> all modern games do!
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18:00:06 <vargadanis> is there any other similar games to openttd?
18:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> thou shallst not have any games besides this
18:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> src/../src/SBB/../templates/gfx_front_vehicle_10.pnml:124:5: error: token """ is not valid in preprocessor expressions <-- any idea what i'm doing wrong
18:09:56 <vargadanis> Eddi|zuHause, seems like an extra " mark
18:11:21 <Eddi|zuHause> vargadanis: but the code looks like this:
18:11:24 <Eddi|zuHause> #include "../templates/gfx_front_vehicle_10.pnml"
18:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> no " involved anywhere nearby
18:12:14 <vargadanis> ahm can you pastebin the related lines and surrounding for me somewhere pls?
18:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what point in the code would be relevant besides this (except for the full source, which will probably scare you to death :p)
18:15:07 <vargadanis> preprocessor means something is screwed up with the macro expansions... it is a C or C++ code I take it?
18:16:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the #if SLICE line is the one he complains about
18:17:53 <vargadanis> SLICE has been previously defined right?
18:18:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, unless i missed some places...
18:18:54 <vargadanis> I don't have a clue where to problem might be
18:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> see, i don't either...
18:21:08 <vargadanis> sorry I couldn't be more help
18:21:28 <vargadanis> thou shallst not stop looking for the error :)
18:21:41 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: have you tried looking at the preprocessed source?
18:22:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: how do i get that?
18:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> cets.nml is not modified
18:24:54 <Rubidium> well, it should be cets.nml in the root I guess
18:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but since it's an error, the file is untouched by the makefile
18:26:10 <Rubidium> oh, you mean it's the preprocessor bailing out?
18:26:26 <Rubidium> well, then show the diff ;)
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18:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/cets_new_artic.diff
18:30:49 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: line 192?
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18:34:41 <Rubidium> for the next time something like: grep -n SLICE cets_new_artic.diff|grep '"' work do wonders
18:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i did look over that line
18:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but i totally missed it
18:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> a grep wouldn't have helped either
18:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i blame python's syntax higlighting :p
18:45:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23662 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hungarian - 20 changes by Brumi
18:45:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 9 changes by fanioz
18:45:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by junho2813, telk5093
18:45:46 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: polish - 2 changes by xaxa
18:45:46 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: serbian - 35 changes by etran
18:47:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23663 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt: -Fix: WT3 validation fluke
18:51:43 * Terkhen got no feedback for the translation as usual
18:52:19 <planetmaker> Well, luckily I got much feedback.
18:52:29 <planetmaker> good evening also
18:53:30 <Terkhen> I guess that I'm doing an awesome job :)
18:53:38 <Terkhen> since it requires no feedback
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18:58:02 <Ammler> nobody uses it, all use catalan
19:03:17 <Rubidium> sorry for not giving feedback Terkhen, but the feedback I'd give would be pretty useless
20:07:22 <Terkhen> Rubidium: thanks anyways :)
20:08:19 <Afdal> I'm looking for an IRC bot to relay messages between IRC and an openttd server
20:08:27 <Afdal> Are there any other bots than Autopilot?
20:09:27 <Afdal> I see planet maker is in here too
20:09:50 <planetmaker> he's in way too many channels :-P
20:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> he's our irc-openttd bot :p
20:14:16 <planetmaker> Afdal: not that I know of another existing implementation
20:14:32 <planetmaker> Afdal: further, ap+ / autopilot uses a deprecated way.
20:14:49 <planetmaker> OpenTTD has an admin port. Which would allow the same in a more sane way
20:14:55 <KenjiE20> I really should start poking my code again
20:15:20 <Afdal> I want to relay chat both to and from IRC
20:15:28 <planetmaker> I only know of two libraries which can help interface it (python and java) and a demo implementation (java)
20:15:36 <KenjiE20> ap is essentially a hack that 'listens' to console output
20:15:55 <KenjiE20> the admin port is made to pass info out
20:16:23 <Afdal> Would it be relatively simple to code a simpler bot just for relaying?
20:16:31 <KenjiE20> I should get back into my project and nail down the library soon
20:16:37 <Afdal> I don't really know how I would go about doing that though
20:16:46 <Afdal> I've never used hooks or anything like that when programming
20:17:26 <KenjiE20> it's not the easiest thing to build around tbh, but it's better than the ap hack
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20:30:19 <Afdal> Well if these libraries are documented well and straightforward I might try coding one
20:30:27 <Afdal> Can you point me to them Kenjie20?
20:31:54 <KenjiE20> atm most of the implementations are proof of concept
20:32:34 <KenjiE20> I was working on a c#/mono one, but it's kinda stalled atm
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20:42:08 <andythenorth> everyone will just use the triple, right :P
20:42:57 <peter1138> not when it's much slower
20:45:16 <andythenorth> it's much slower?
20:45:28 <Afdal> What does the server log output to anyway?
20:45:36 <andythenorth> irl road trains only travel in certain places - by special permit
20:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> move them to HEQS
20:45:59 <andythenorth> they're valid trucks
20:46:16 <andythenorth> they'll likely be on a parameter though
20:46:47 <andythenorth> valid for parts of north america, australia, and some parts of europe
21:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> need roadtypes, and allow them only on out-of-town roads
21:11:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: precisely
21:12:49 <andythenorth> if someone brings roadtypes I can bring trucks
21:13:14 <andythenorth> and tractors, and bulldozers, and off-highway mining haulers
21:20:47 <fjb|tab> Did roadtypes die from technical reasons or lack of time?
21:21:38 <andythenorth> lack of developer
21:21:53 <andythenorth> I started a patch for it
21:22:15 <andythenorth> but it turned into 'andy codes by eddi, or frosch or some other poor person tells andy what lines of code to write'
21:22:47 <andythenorth> i.e. I just copy and paste code from other people :P
21:23:48 <fjb|tab> Didn't peter have an early version?
21:24:17 <andythenorth> it has been rumoured
21:24:25 <Eddi|zuHause> a "hmm... where did i actually put that?"-version :)
21:24:37 <Rubidium> I doubt petert ever did something like that
21:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> now... why is my graphics code not working properly?
21:28:43 <fjb|tab> Eddi|zuHause: Just to annoy you.
21:29:19 <Rubidium> the graphics code doesn't observe Christmas? So it isn't in a helping mood
21:33:02 <Zuu> Hmm, the orders window is really wide with the auto refit option that get the same width as the widest string of any drop down list on that same line.
21:33:15 <Zuu> In swedish that dialog is now at minimum about 700 px wide.
21:33:32 <Zuu> (with the OpenGFX standard font)
21:34:37 <Zuu> The longest string is "full load, any cargo" which is about 1.5 times longer in swedish.
21:36:20 * Zuu managed to crash two trains by placing a pbs signal (no removal of signs)
21:36:40 <Arkabzol> Weird that Swedish has longer sentences seeing as we have more letters in our alphabet and thus can have shorter words.
21:36:48 <Zuu> Hmm, actually it is not due to the signals.
21:37:54 <Zuu> I built a bypass section. And before adding signals to it a waiting train reserved a path through the free track of the passing track while the other was driving on the main track at the passing section.
21:38:42 <Zuu> Thus the two trains collided
21:39:04 <Zuu> Arkabzol: the problem is that "any cargo" takes four words in the current translation.
21:39:30 <Arkabzol> I was thinking "all sorts last".
21:39:43 <Zuu> hmm "varfritt gods" could work
21:40:18 <Zuu> which means free of choice
21:41:57 <Zuu> although it could imply that the player has a choice
21:44:34 * Zuu settles for "Full last, någon godstyp" which utilizes one of the extended characters :-)
21:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... evil bug...
21:47:33 <Zuu> hmm, actually if you got A and B with a single lane railway between them with no signals. If you add a bypass lane in the middle without signals and the trains use PBS signals at A and B to grant acces to the single lane track, then a crash is going to occur. :-)
21:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that shouldn't happen
21:50:09 <Zuu> when one train from say A come to the bypass lane, the train that waits at B will find a path through the other lane of the bypass section and head towards A. At a location between the bypass section and B the crash will occur.
21:51:33 <Zuu> And the irony of this is that by putting pbs signals to mark the waiting section as "safe" the problem is solved. :-)
21:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> then your train A got into motion without reserving the full path
21:52:57 <Zuu> hmm, yes, you are right and that is what happened in my game as there was no signals at all (or other trains) when the train at A started its journy.
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22:19:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that may be a valid case for idiot-proofing: when placing a path signal, re-evaluate whether the paths of all surrounding vehicles end at a safe waiting point
22:22:49 <andythenorth> in 1980 BANDIT might have around 30 trucks in the buy menu
22:23:40 <peter1138> then, FIRS in 32bpp-ez
22:26:58 <FLHerne> what're the 'vocational only' ones for?
22:27:37 <andythenorth> heavier, more robust
22:27:52 <andythenorth> irl, it's a US term for dump trucks, cement trucks, heavy-haul etc
22:28:04 <andythenorth> in the set it will limit refits
22:29:39 <FLHerne> Oh, OK. I don't think I've heard that term before...
22:30:11 <FLHerne> Will the short 8-axle ones be articulated or rigid?
22:47:47 * Zuu notices that in the advanced settings it says "disable trains for _computer_: [on/off]
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23:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if $someone is bored, he should write the nml code for throwing a warning when 90° curves are enabled
23:01:37 <Zuu> how does that relate to nml?
23:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it relates to CETS
23:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no real intention to make the curve-behaviour look good in 90° curves
23:03:23 <Zuu> otherwise with the power of a GS that setting could be changed :-)
23:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... where's Elukka? looks like the 4-axle wagon is 1px shorter in -> direction than in <- direction
23:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and in / and \ direction the alignment doesn't match the engine
23:05:59 <kais58> I only know one elukka, I'll poke the one I know and see if it's the same guy for you
23:06:09 <vargadanis> omg, you must have big pixels if you notice that :)
23:06:27 <Zuu> Maybe you could wish for a action 14 to veto against certain settings. Allthough that colud give a mess if too many GRFs have different opinions on some settings.
23:07:06 <vargadanis> ? damn question mark
23:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> vargadanis: theres x2 and x4 zoom in now. and it looked odd without that, anyway...
23:08:10 <Zuu> vargadanis: a meta language to create NewGRFs.
23:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... weird... even the template seems wrong... so is actually the vehicle spacing different?!?
23:16:00 <TrueBrain> Zuu: just posted on forum, I can't understand what you meant with your Goal GUI company thingy :)
23:16:05 <TrueBrain> it doesn't make sense to me ..
23:24:44 <Zuu> I ment that if I register one goal for each company, they all show up in the list of company goals.
23:24:47 <TrueBrain> basically my issue is if you read the API, misunderstood the documentation of the API, or if there is a bug
23:25:18 <TrueBrain> so wouldn't it then be a more logic conclusion to call it a bug? :) As obvious it doesn't comply with the API documentation :P Hehe :)
23:25:35 <Zuu> If it is a bug or a design flaw or if it is just how it was designed to be (that the GS author has to include the company name in the goal text)
23:25:36 <TrueBrain> it is really hard for me to decypher some of those replies in the NoGo thread :)
23:25:56 <TrueBrain> well, the documentation states the GSGoal.New(company) should only show for company
23:26:11 <Zuu> well, then it is clearly a bug
23:26:40 <Zuu> Which I should have reported earlier instead of working around it. :-)
23:28:59 <Zuu> And regarding debugging, I just realized that one can use the switch company cheat to check the goals of other companies
23:30:05 <TrueBrain> somehow a single line dropped out :P
23:30:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23664 /trunk/src/goal.cpp: -Fix: adding goals with a company were still added for all companies. Tnx to Zuu for reporting (although cryptic :D)
23:30:15 <TrueBrain> sadly enough tha thappens with merging patches :)
23:30:50 <TrueBrain> now company should work as intended :P
23:31:11 <TrueBrain> I do wonder if removing goals always work as intended
23:31:54 <Zuu> TransportGoals does remove + create a harder goal every time someone is reaching his/her goal.
23:34:21 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23665 /trunk/src/ (goal.cpp goal_gui.cpp): -Fix (r23664): revert, and apply other fix, which allows switching companies safely in SinglePlayer
23:34:29 <TrueBrain> seconds after commit I realised: doh, wrong way to fix it :D
23:35:11 <TrueBrain> Zuu: please to keep me informed when you have the need to work around stuff; it is quiet possibly a bug :D
23:35:56 <Zuu> Yep, I think I didn't really reflect about it being a bug.
23:36:09 <glx> TrueBrain: it's so you ;)
23:36:14 <TrueBrain> I can understand that Zuu :)
23:36:42 <TrueBrain> but keep your posts going; just please add small code snippets so I know what you are talking about :)
23:36:48 <TrueBrain> tnx glx .. I think :D
23:37:23 <TrueBrain> so Zuu .. how is NoGo working? A bit doable script-wise? And a bit fun game-wise?
23:39:06 <Zuu> It is clearly that it allows for many different creations that is yet for people to figure out.
23:39:32 <Zuu> The hard thing with it being so open is that you need a good idea before starting coding :-)
23:40:04 <TrueBrain> I started with NoGo as a very specific platform, but it grew big really fast :P
23:40:23 <Zuu> But I'm sure I have a quite large benefit of having written AIs before writing GS scripts.
23:40:49 <TrueBrain> I think the wiki could use love in the scripting department ... it took me some reading before I had my first GS working :P
23:40:58 <TrueBrain> and I wrote some of those pages myself .. it is so sad :P
23:41:28 <TrueBrain> fun fact: yesterday it took 4 developers to help the 'original' 32bpp developer to get 32bpp pngs loaded ingame ... documentation is so important :D
23:41:49 <Zuu> I haven't yet checket out the wiki as I'm unsure if AI/GS should have a common coding part or not in the wiki.
23:42:20 <TrueBrain> I should make some pages about GS I guess
23:42:21 <Zuu> Also, when searching for nogo, I get no hits in the wiki
23:42:29 <TrueBrain> nobody made any page for it yet :)
23:42:42 * TrueBrain is not a big wiki fan ... information tends to get old really fast
23:42:48 <TrueBrain> but it is a necesity
23:44:37 <Zuu> hmm, maybe it is not a bad idea to have one are afor AI, one for GameScript/NoGo and a third common area for general sqirrel coding topics.
23:45:00 <Zuu> But that need a wiki-guru to do the categories etc.
23:51:19 <XaTriX> is that possible to use proxy on ttd ?
23:53:01 <Zuu> you could try some kind of tunneling if you have access to that.
23:53:25 <XaTriX> i've server with socks & ssh access
23:53:38 <XaTriX> tunneling work when ottd server is on my box
23:53:43 <XaTriX> but dont try for another server
23:54:20 <TrueBrain> make an ssh tunnel to a remote server
23:54:26 <TrueBrain> and connect to your local tunnel :)
23:54:42 <TrueBrain> but you woull have to join via the command line, as getting UDP to work would be tricky
23:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> MAJOR SAVEGAME BREAKAGE ahead...
23:56:08 <MNIM> what did you do now, eddi?
23:56:40 <XaTriX> connect to my local tunnel ??
23:56:55 <TrueBrain> an SSH tunnel connects a remote port to a local port
continue to next day ⏵
