IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-22
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00:25:28 <planetmaker> apropos, Zuu, do you have any repo which is a start of a tutorial script?
00:27:37 <Zuu> Not publicly available, but I'll send you a copy of my current state in a PM. (to late to spend time on testing/publishing right now)
00:28:45 <planetmaker> yes, too late now for most. I just saw you write a line and wanted to ask you for the last two days already ;-)
00:30:57 <planetmaker> and yes, I'd love to get a look at it - and a start to get playing with it myself
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00:32:54 <Zuu> planetmaker: Have a look at your inbox
00:33:25 <Zuu> It's the same framework as I posted on the forums, just with some more Step types.
00:33:38 <Zuu> I belive save/load is not fully implemented yet.
00:33:52 <Zuu> But I really start to doubt if that is going to be a priority at all.
00:34:06 <Zuu> Anyway, it's late. So have fun and talk later.
00:34:23 <planetmaker> yeah, sleep well :-)
01:35:06 <vargadanis> from what company age is it allowed to buy competitors' shares?
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03:16:36 <stinkyfax> what should I do when my town requires Food and Water to grow, (i provide food) but town has no buildings which would accept Water??? i'm like WTF
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08:09:00 <appe> stinkyfax: you can fund it.
08:10:11 <appe> stinkyfax: check out the data under the "Tropical" section.
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10:00:33 <stinkyfax> appe: i can't see water tower in the list :( though there are water towers in other towns
10:15:37 <Alberth> appe: open eyes and look at the 4th entry, perhaps?
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10:30:16 <andythenorth> interesting physics problem
10:30:27 <andythenorth> big log trucks have planetary reduction gears in the wheel hubs
10:30:38 <andythenorth> the gears can be swapped out for different ratios
10:31:02 <andythenorth> to suit, e.g. hauling on steep grades (slow), or hauling on level roads (hammer down)
10:31:11 <andythenorth> how do I fake that in game?
10:31:54 <peter1138> ottd doesn't simulate gears, so it doesn't matter
10:32:00 <andythenorth> but what props do I change? TE?
10:32:28 <peter1138> max-speed & TE, usually
10:33:49 <andythenorth> wonder if it will suck
10:34:33 <peter1138> automatic or manual?
10:35:18 <andythenorth> transmission? Or changing of props?
10:36:45 <andythenorth> thinking about varying number of trailers too
10:36:48 <peter1138> if it's automatic then you won't notice it, so just give it high TE and high max speed
10:41:22 <andythenorth> sounds complicated to play?
10:44:38 * andythenorth ponders a French economy for FIRS
10:44:44 <andythenorth> to go with French trainset
10:48:04 <planetmaker> crèpes, vin, champagner, boisin, ...? :-)
10:48:34 <peter1138> planetmaker, is there a 32bpp-ez opengfx devzone yet? ;)
10:48:57 <planetmaker> I didn't create a project yet
10:49:19 <planetmaker> There's the existing project by Geektoo which creates the extra grf as 32bpp
10:49:40 <planetmaker> there you can't simply sprite-replace
10:49:56 <planetmaker> as you don't know when the underlaying grf changes
10:50:13 <planetmaker> thus you better provide your own grf (ogfxe_extra.grf / openttd.grf)
10:50:39 <peter1138> that's a sort of spanner in the works for 32bpp-only basesets. hmm.
10:51:05 <planetmaker> though.... I offered the 32bpp people to give ample notification of changes in the sprite numbers of the extra grf
10:51:10 <planetmaker> it's not like it changes all the time
10:51:52 <planetmaker> but indeed, for this reason a 8bpp + 32bpp joint baseset makes sense
10:52:46 <andythenorth> rename the brewery to Vineyard?
10:53:08 <planetmaker> dunno... who suggested yesterday to first create a makefile which can create sprites from the blender files directly? I guess it was TB. And that makes sense
10:53:22 <planetmaker> Though one could already collect proper blender files
10:53:45 <planetmaker> I very much like that idea
10:53:49 <peter1138> i talked about making stuff from source using a tracking table with offsets
10:53:53 <planetmaker> And it will be feasible
10:53:57 <peter1138> i kinda implied blender source but didn't meantion it
10:54:39 <planetmaker> It needs a bit of work, and I don't yet know whether and how well blender can be run as non-gui scripted application
10:54:56 <planetmaker> gimp can. But also has some issues with that ;-)
10:54:59 <peter1138> still need a concenus on png-in-tar-file vs custom-container
10:55:12 <planetmaker> that's your call :-)
10:55:36 <planetmaker> imho don't let yourself guide by existing sprites. Just create a sane spec
10:56:09 <planetmaker> with blender files present, and giving wrong lighting, dimensions, ... of existing, it will need re-rendering of most anyway
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10:56:30 <peter1138> but grfcodec is kind of a pain :)
10:56:33 <planetmaker> feasible, probably even relatively easy, if blender files and definitions are there
10:56:54 <planetmaker> you want them really within the grf itself?
10:57:02 <peter1138> just as an example of a tool needed to put sprites in a container
10:57:17 <planetmaker> well... so within a tar won't do?
10:57:23 <planetmaker> maybe tar in tar?
10:57:31 <planetmaker> if that would make it easier?
10:57:39 <peter1138> within a tar is ok, but our filescanning isn't geared up to be used this way
10:58:43 <peter1138> what i'm thinking of is checking for 'related' files when *opening* a grf file
10:59:16 <peter1138> then LoadNextSprite can check the related files
11:00:25 <peter1138> i.e. ogfx1_base.grf -> ogfx1_base_2x.tar & ogfx1_base_4x.tar
11:00:43 <planetmaker> as a new 'property' or feature for the grf files?
11:01:15 <peter1138> implied filenames, no new property. it needs to work for non-newgrfs too :)
11:01:34 <planetmaker> like base sets? yeah
11:04:38 * SpComb replaces newgrf with lua
11:05:52 <peter1138> i could use a file slot for each png :p
11:06:25 <SpComb> I was just playing PewPew, and started wondering if it'd be fun to write a clone in OpenGL/Qt
11:06:26 <planetmaker> SpComb: if you do that, do it properly: use xml and let it define the single voxels bit by bit
11:06:49 <SpComb> but then it'd be JS, not lua
11:06:53 <andythenorth> croissant factory
11:07:25 <peter1138> openlocomotion's going well
11:07:54 * SpComb has never done OpenGL directly
11:09:08 <SpComb> bt understanding it would be useful for writing animated eye-candy GUIs
11:09:20 <SpComb> which is what you tend to get paid for these days
11:09:59 <stinkyfax> SpComb: u get payed for gui in html5 with javascript, not opengl :)
11:10:17 <SpComb> but that html5 gui stuff uses OpenGL
11:10:52 <stinkyfax> aye, and opengl uses assembly, so make an assembly wrap?
11:11:11 <SpComb> althoguh, well, not x86 or GPU
11:13:06 <stinkyfax> i afraid people playing TTD care the least about graphics :)
11:14:55 <SpComb> doing loving pixel-pushing by hand, rather than just rendering 3D models by machine
11:15:13 <stinkyfax> ok, good luck with that. if you need some help let me know, I did a coursework with opengl, so i might remember few bits, buut mostly not :D
11:15:42 <stinkyfax> 3d pushes pixel by pixel as well but does it many more times :)))
11:16:12 <planetmaker> stinkyfax: write an OpenGL blitter for OpenTTD...
11:16:14 <stinkyfax> i think u should focus on delivering 2d first :)
11:16:25 <planetmaker> and it's "you", not "u"
11:16:33 <SpComb> planetmaker: didn't someone do that already?
11:16:54 <peter1138> opengl blitter, hehe
11:17:03 <stinkyfax> planetmaker: but it's an irc chat, why be so official?
11:17:56 <peter1138> r u shore u 1t 2 b slakin jus cuz its on irc
11:18:57 <peter1138> planetmaker, I feel dirty :(
11:19:00 <stinkyfax> peter1138: there is always a reasonable border
11:20:23 * planetmaker gives a language gargle solvent to peter
11:20:41 <fjb|tab> stinkyfax: Not everybody is a native English speaker here.
11:20:54 <planetmaker> I'd bet the majority isn't ;-)
11:21:54 * planetmaker looks at op list and finds... two
11:22:00 <peter1138> I'd bet stinkyfax isn't :)
11:22:46 <peter1138> "u" doesn't look very native English to me ;)
11:22:56 <fjb|tab> And most are old enough to not have to kewl anymore.
11:22:56 <stinkyfax> I'm not. But it has nothing to do to native English
11:23:42 <planetmaker> that's exactly the reason to write proper English, though
11:24:00 <stinkyfax> this slang is common among gamers, internet lovers, etc, not native English people
11:24:03 <planetmaker> it's about making it easy for people from all around the globe to understand this channel
11:24:17 <SpComb> #openttd - your internet lovers :)
11:24:46 <planetmaker> "all flies eat shit - so just dig in?"
11:25:05 <stinkyfax> if only I was a fly
11:25:37 <stinkyfax> cya (see you) later.
11:25:47 * fjb|tab bets that there are more train and truck lovers in here than internet lovers.
11:26:16 <__ln__> stinkyfax: what's common is irrelevant, because the channel topic states "English only".
11:35:27 <peter1138> the station triggers don't seem to work
11:35:28 <Alberth> stinkyfax: slang tends to get in the way of clearly explaining problems in a precise manner
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11:41:36 <planetmaker> peter1138: got an example (I'm not aware I changed any of that code...)
11:42:50 <planetmaker> or could you check whether it's the same behaviour with 0.8.0?
11:42:57 <planetmaker> by just replacing newgrfs?
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11:46:59 <peter1138> planetmaker, station triggers aren't implemented ;)
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11:57:48 <andythenorth> cheese is french
12:01:09 <andythenorth> maybe a 'Euro' economy is sufficient :P
12:01:28 <Alberth> The French don't have cheese, they have 'fromage'
12:01:46 <peter1138> ah oui oui, le fromage
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12:12:02 <andythenorth> trucks were crappy in 1910
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12:22:41 <andythenorth> does the game use short ton, metric ton, or long ton?
12:23:41 <planetmaker> nfo uses iirc uk tons
12:24:43 <planetmaker> for the sake of newgrf programming I use them with a conversion factor 1:1 - though OpenTTD's gui does a correct conversion depending on the unit settings you chose
12:27:01 <andythenorth> "A century ago, trucks were hardly more than an idea among forward-thinking vehicle manufac- turers. Long-distance haulage was undertaken by rail and water, local distribution by horse-drawn wagon. There was simply no market for trucks, the pundits noted. But optimists saw an unex- ploited business opportunity."
12:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds horribly over-glorified
12:36:13 <andythenorth> from a Scania 'centenary of Scania' PDF :P
12:37:48 <andythenorth> so basically trucks are crap until about 1930
12:38:08 <andythenorth> although you could haul 120t with three traction engines at 5mph
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12:43:42 <vargadanis> well hello TTD Fans :)
12:45:40 * planetmaker favours openttd ;-)
12:45:47 * Alberth never played TTD, only TTDX and a lot of OpenTTD :)
12:46:11 <planetmaker> Alberth: ttd == ttdx, if I'm not mistaken ;-)
12:46:17 <planetmaker> TT is the predecessor
12:47:47 <TrueBrain> never understood why
12:48:32 <KenjiE20> always installed to C:\MPS\TTDLX
13:11:21 <Dani_> how do I share orders between trucks?
13:12:07 <Dani_> will that mean that if I change the order on the 'lead' truck the orders will change among all the trucks that share the order?
13:12:42 <Alberth> any truck that uses the orders will do, they are shared, you know :)
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13:15:25 <planetmaker> I think 175 people are here... theoretically
13:15:38 <planetmaker> But... no, it's all bots, really
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13:16:07 <Alberth> but if you want to know something, our bots are quite smart :)
13:17:13 <Svish> how do you set up a dedicated server? do I have to run the game normally first and set all the settings in the title screen there, and then exit and start as dedicated server? and how do I set settings which are not in the Advanced Settings tree?
13:18:06 <planetmaker> edit your cfg to suit your needs and start openttd by ./openttd -D -c configfile
13:19:33 <Svish> ah, so I can create a copy of the config file and use that specifically when I start the server?
13:20:04 <planetmaker> you don't need to create a copy really. You can also use the same cfg. But might be nicer to not overwrite it with your single player settings
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13:31:38 <Svish> is it possible to download the config of a running server?
13:32:22 <Dani_> OMG! Shared orders for the win!
13:32:27 <Alberth> not as file, but the config is part of the savegame
13:32:46 <planetmaker> Svish: not really
13:33:08 <planetmaker> but every savegame / map has the config within it which it was created with
13:33:15 <planetmaker> just need to check all interesting settings
13:33:41 <Svish> so I can just use the save thing in a multiplayer game and then open up the save file?
13:34:31 <Svish> hm seems opening up a save file wasn't just a matter of opening it with 7zip :p
13:34:53 * andythenorth tries to have a nap
13:35:40 <planetmaker> Svish: what do you expect to see then? It's binary data...
13:35:47 <Alberth> Svish: 'opening' can only be done by loading it in the the game
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13:40:31 <Svish> well, since you wrote "every savegame has the config within it", I assumed it was an archive file including that file or something :)
13:41:09 <Svish> found I could write listsettings in the console when connected to a server though. although it's a pain to look through it... but at least I can see it :)
13:42:32 <Svish> how can I set the autoclean options so that a player can be go and have a decent night of sleep before returning without having their company disappear?
13:43:05 <Alberth> you want your users to sleep? :D
13:44:32 <Svish> well, I would like to be able to sleep myself yes, and then come back to continue :p
13:50:15 <Svish> how long is a game month in regular time?
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13:50:54 <Alberth> you may want to extend the page for your question :D
13:54:13 <Svish> so 24 hours would be roughly 105 game years
13:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that is one whole game (from 1950 to 2050)
13:55:55 <Svish> is it possible to extend this somehow? or perhaps just stretch out the time so that you get new vehicles slower or something?
13:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no official way (yet)
13:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but unofficial "daylength patches"
13:56:24 <Svish> thinking something along the lines of Civilization 5 where you have quick games, longer and epic games
13:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> being "unofficial" makes them very ill-suited for multiplayer, though
13:58:32 <Alberth> you can play until the year 5000000 or so
13:59:11 <Alberth> but you don't get new vehicles after 20XX-somthing
13:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you should start in 2050 in this case, so you won't have any development at all
13:59:16 <Svish> the reload_cfg, is that for it to reload the cfg when game is restarted?
13:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's for when you modified the file
13:59:57 <Svish> ah, so it will reload it everytime I change it?
14:00:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no, by default all changes to the file are ignored (and overwritten)
14:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause> reload_cfg will override that default
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14:31:31 <Svish> hm, I cannot start server... is there a log somewhere with why?
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14:41:20 <Svish> well, in the console it just said could not startserver
14:41:54 <Svish> when I start the serverfrom the windows console, itopens a new window which flashes some error and closes again
14:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> try setting debug_level net=2 on the console
14:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> (the ingame console i mean)
14:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (and possibly "developer 2")
14:46:18 <Svish> can I do that in the config file?
14:47:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the debug level cannot be set in the config file
14:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but from the command line
14:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> start with "openttd.exe -d net=2" or similar
14:53:31 <Svish> aah, you can open that ingame console while in the title screen too
15:02:57 <andythenorth> there's no point putting really crappy trucks in a set
15:03:13 <andythenorth> start trucks later, or fake speeds?
15:03:36 <andythenorth> irl, speeds were restricted by law more than by engineering
15:09:02 <Svish> aaa, I can't get this server to run. turning on debug_level didn't make anything more helpful appear in the console either
15:10:45 <Ammler> the time you need to solve a issue on windows, you can setup a linux system
15:11:12 <Ammler> (well, with other issues included) :-P
15:11:37 <Svish> i'll take the issues in windows over the mess in linux any day :p
15:12:24 <Svish> besides, it works to start a server on my laptop, so it must be something weird on my other computer... are there issues with the 64bit version when it comes to servers?
15:13:51 <Ammler> does it just say "could not start server", nothing more?
15:14:43 <Ammler> openttd works as usual client?
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15:18:16 <Svish> Ammler: yeah. very unhelpful. and when starting from the console, it does seem to says something but it flashes open in a new window which closes too fast
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15:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Svish: did you set "developer 2" like i told you?
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15:31:34 <Svish> oh, is that different from the debug_level net=2?
15:31:55 <Svish> tried to just set debug_level 2 as well, does that include developer?
15:32:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the "developer" setting decides where debug output appears (stdout vs. ingame console)
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15:40:46 <andythenorth> traction engines + trailers: BANDIT or HEQS?
15:45:46 <Svish> why does it try to look up the hostname E? is that why it fails?
15:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you have a weird HOSTS file?
15:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> or something in your .cfg?
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16:17:08 <Alberth> looks like black/coloured camouflage at first sight :p
16:32:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23656 /trunk/ (.gitignore .hgignore docs/): -Fix: make all vcs ignore docs/gamedocs/ just like docs/aidocs/
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16:36:03 <andythenorth> adult lego fans are sometimes fuckheads
16:36:16 <andythenorth> "omg, this set looks like it was designed for little children"
16:36:22 <andythenorth> (recommended age on the box 6-12)
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16:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: now make a full replacement set :)
17:07:56 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23657 /trunk/src/saveload/town_sl.cpp: -Fix (r22958): loading of very old savegames with custom town names failed
17:08:24 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd log 22958
17:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 22958
17:08:34 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r22958 /trunk/src/saveload (company_sl.cpp town_sl.cpp) (2011-09-23 19:49:45 UTC)
17:08:35 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Fix [FS#4778]: the savegame description and loading of savegames would crash with savegames from a patched stable (which didn't bump the savegame version)
17:15:16 <Svish> what kind of signal distance do you guys use?
17:19:26 <planetmaker> any. You'll probably get every answer from 1 to 15
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17:22:35 <Svish> if most of my trains are between 4 and 5 tiles long, what distance would you recommend?
17:23:40 <Yexo> it really depends on your playing style
17:23:56 <Yexo> if you play with trunk and enable infrastructure maintenance, probably 5 or 6
17:24:15 <Yexo> if you play without that and are optimizing your network for efficiency, 2
17:24:28 <Yexo> otherwise whatever looks best for you
17:39:46 <peter1138> it's on the luukland.net site
17:40:12 <peter1138> "Download Single Player City-Builder"
17:42:48 <frosch123> does that count as gpl violation?
17:43:16 <planetmaker> imho yes, though it's border line
17:43:29 <planetmaker> look at copying, frosch123
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17:45:39 <frosch123> oh, that's even better
17:46:10 <frosch123> quite a bad-ass gang :p
17:46:37 <Rubidium> should we send a nice mail to their provider?
17:47:07 <frosch123> i don't think its worth the effort
17:47:50 <andythenorth> at least COPYING is somewhat funny
17:48:29 <Rubidium> it's a serious violation
17:48:47 <Rubidium> IMO even more serious than not adding one, as this has definitely been added this way
17:49:39 <andythenorth> "and they were all like, whatever dude"
17:50:17 <andythenorth> nothing in their stuff about GPL or attribution that I could find
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18:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhen i want to play a game with signal distance 24
18:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but not before CETS is somewhat playable, and we have "realistic braking"
18:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: a train reserves (at least) its braking distance, and when there is a speed limit (bridge, curve, red signal, ...) within that reservation, it gradually slows down (like with stations)
18:10:32 <V453000> but what if a red signal suddenly flicks in front of it
18:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that never happens
18:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (except with player intervention)
18:11:48 <Rubidium> a green path signal never goes red; even in the real world it's really hard to get it back to red
18:12:01 <V453000> oh, it works only with path signals?
18:12:06 <Rubidium> IIRC here the route stays locked for at least two minutes
18:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> even a green block signal never goes red, because all other block signals will be forced to red in that case
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18:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it should work with block signals as well
18:13:29 <V453000> well a green pre-signal can go red basically anytime based on the conditions
18:13:54 <V453000> or when an another train tries to enter the same block?
18:14:13 <Rubidium> not with the premise that the reserved path acts like a train being there
18:14:17 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: another train cannot enter the block, as a reservation counts like a train being in the block
18:14:37 <TWerkhoven[l]> the train reserves the entire path or blocks, and all signals therein will be red
18:14:46 <blathijs> Doesn't this need yellow signals for a train to slow down?
18:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and the presignal condition will be ignored once the reservation has been placed through the signal
18:14:57 <blathijs> Otherwise there is nothing that could ever stop a train?
18:14:58 <TWerkhoven[l]> only cosmetically
18:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: "yellow signal" is just eyecandy
18:15:19 <TWerkhoven[l]> the train will see the red signal within its stopping distance, and slow down
18:15:24 <V453000> I am wondering how is that going to work
18:15:37 <TWerkhoven[l]> so when are you starting on implementing it eddi?
18:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> blathijs: a train slows down, when the reservation fails (because of a forced-red signal)
18:16:04 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Ah, right, you just prevent a signal from going red when the train passes by, not it going red when the train is far away
18:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> TWerkhoven[l]: my implementation status is "waiting on michi_cc to pop up with a ready implementation" :)
18:24:06 <Yexo> blathijs: don't want to bug you too much, but a new OpenGFX will require a package of nml
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18:46:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23658 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 12 changes by planetmaker
18:46:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hungarian - 52 changes by Brumi, IPG
18:46:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 17 changes by fanioz
18:46:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 4 changes by Snail_, lorenzodv
18:46:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: malay - 156 changes by kazlan68
18:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a wolf!! all hide!!
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19:01:07 <Wolf01> aww.. I don't see anymore Alberth :(
19:01:33 * Alberth unhides from eddi, and hugs Wolf01 :)
19:02:06 <blathijs> Yexo: No problem, keep bugging me :-)
19:02:16 <blathijs> Yexo: I'll probably have some time this weekend or next week
19:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "i don't have to outrun the wolf, i only have to outrun YOU"
19:03:02 * Wolf01 repeatly clicks on blathijs (like on warcraft 2)
19:03:19 <planetmaker> blathijs: and by Saturday you'll have a new release of OpenGFX
19:03:32 <planetmaker> or somewhen Saturday latest
19:03:57 <blathijs> planetmaker: Good to keep the pressure on ;-)
19:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> saturday is when the presents are delivered
19:18:14 <andythenorth> are we releasing anything for Christmas?
19:18:28 * andythenorth is chasing BANDIT
19:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "Finland discovers patriot rockets en route from germany to south korea, declared as 'fireworks'"
19:37:44 <andythenorth> electric trucks?
19:38:42 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe futuristic ones?
19:39:17 <andythenorth> quite a lot of battery trucks before internal combustion engines were good
19:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that fits around the time when prussia experimented with battery powered railcars
19:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (to replace steam engines on its vast network of minor branch lines)
19:40:53 <andythenorth> is it worth limiting range?
19:41:26 <andythenorth> the diesel trucks don't have to refuel either
19:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> range limits are only effective for aircraft
19:51:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23659 /trunk/ (known-bugs.txt readme.txt): -Doc: behaviour of file searching in general, and in tars specifically
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20:05:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23660 /trunk/src/crashlog.cpp: -Feature-ish: add the game script to the crash log
20:06:27 <vargadanis> I can see text like road expansion complete above the heads of the competitor AIs.. what are those?
20:06:40 <vargadanis> above competitors' HQ that is
20:07:35 <Rubidium> probably debug texts
20:08:45 *** Progman has joined #openttd
20:12:37 <Eddi|zuHause> in the nightlies you can disable showing competitor's signs
20:23:09 <andythenorth> rv-wagons for christmas?
20:23:25 <Terkhen> don't know, ask santa
20:23:25 <Rubidium> definitely not this one ;)
20:26:00 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen santa.
20:28:33 * andythenorth looks forward to a lot of dicking around with refits for trailers :|
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20:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i think CETS is nearing nmlc-explosion
20:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> took something like 5:20 now...
20:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and memory consumption doesn't look well either
20:44:49 <Rubidium> so start optimising nmlc ;)
20:45:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i just tripled the amount of vehicles...
20:49:30 <peter1138> have you hit 100000 sprites yet?
20:52:36 <Eddi|zuHause> cets.grf has 106932 sprites, maxx 65, maxy 41, maxs 983.
20:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's a temporary hiccups, i believe
20:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be less if i'm done
20:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> now... fixing graphics...
20:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... why do tenders not work?
21:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... i think i know...
21:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that complicates a few things
21:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i have no idea how to do python profiling
21:06:15 <andythenorth> I had no idea how to write nfo
21:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> one problem: the dependency run takes almost as long as the final run...
21:07:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and i still don't understand why that is needed at all...
21:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> just do a complete run, and fish the dependendcies out afterwards
21:10:46 <stinkyfax> How can I refit my train to have passengers wagons + tourist wagons. so far I found only way to have passangers or tourist wagons, but not both together
21:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> in the refit window you can select parts of the wagons to refit
21:11:20 <Yexo> you can't do that in a stable, you'll need a nightly version
21:11:36 <Eddi|zuHause> is that a new feature`
21:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that was already old
21:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the other way is to remove parts of the wagons, refit, and then add the wagons again
21:12:29 <Yexo> oh, it's old already, yes
21:12:48 <Terkhen> IIRC it should be in 1.1.x, yes
21:13:00 <Yexo> - Feature: Allow to refit only the selected part of a train consist (r21567) <- from 1.1.0-beta1 changelog
21:13:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that was one of the last features included in 1.1
21:13:17 <Yexo> that's about right eddi :)
21:14:56 <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> one problem: the dependency run takes almost as long as the final run... <- planetmaker was busy fixing that, so it only does a single run
21:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that'd easily cut off 30%
21:16:29 <stinkyfax> anyone knows solution to supply town with water when it has no water tower nor I can fund a new building "water tower"?
21:16:43 <Yexo> you need to fund the water tower industry first
21:17:15 <stinkyfax> Yexo: I can't fund water tower, there isn't such in list
21:17:22 <stinkyfax> but there are water towers in other towns
21:17:33 <Yexo> you can adjust the settings so you can fund it
21:17:44 <stinkyfax> can you help me here?
21:18:34 <Yexo> advanced settings -> economy -> industry funding or so
21:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so... tenders working again... graphics still broken
21:19:41 * Zuu blames the OTTDAU problems reported on the forums on TrueBrain
21:19:56 <Zuu> Or more specificly, the commit message of r23649
21:20:05 <stinkyfax> Yexo: I believe it is bugged due to some of the opengfx industry vectors.
21:20:16 <stinkyfax> I tried to enable all, Now I can build water supply, but still no water tower in the list
21:20:18 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by truebrain :: r23649 trunk/src/saveload/game_sl.cpp (2011-12-21 12:40:29 UTC)
21:20:19 <Zuu> It has unbalanced square brackets which triggers a bug :-)
21:20:20 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Fix [FS#4905) (r23634): loading a savegame with an empty GSTR chunk caused assert
21:20:35 <TrueBrain> I love fiding bugs in your script :D
21:20:46 <Yexo> stinkyfax: ok, let me try
21:20:46 <Zuu> It keeps trying to find the matching "]" over and over again.
21:22:04 <Yexo> stinkyfax: what is the value of "advanced settings -> economy -> industries -> manual primary industry construction method"?
21:22:23 <stinkyfax> it was none, I tried changing to Prospecting
21:22:55 <Yexo> "prospecting" means you give a lot of money and the game will place the industry somewhere random
21:23:02 <Yexo> or fail to place it, in which case your money is lost
21:23:17 <Yexo> anyway, the water tower should show up in the list if you set it to that
21:23:27 <Yexo> did you change the setting in-game or via the main menu?
21:24:10 <stinkyfax> I have many industry vectors, I think that's the cause of issue
21:24:19 <Yexo> many industry vectors? which ones?
21:24:32 <Yexo> or better yet, can you upload your savegame?
21:25:11 <stinkyfax> (all?) ECS.* Agricultural, Basic II, Chemicals II, Construction vector beta 5, Houses, Machinery vector, Wood vector
21:25:27 <Yexo> don't mix ECS with FIRS or with OpenGFX+Industries
21:25:36 <Yexo> pick one of those 3 and stick with it
21:25:55 <stinkyfax> opengfx+industries?
21:25:57 <Yexo> how did the they load at all?
21:26:22 <Yexo> <stinkyfax> Yexo: I believe it is bugged due to some of the opengfx industry vectors. <- so what was that about?
21:26:39 <stinkyfax> I mean NewGFX* sorry :)
21:26:53 <Yexo> I still don't know what NewGRF would be
21:27:05 <Yexo> if you mean newgrf, you should say which newgrf, ie ECS in your case
21:27:14 <stinkyfax> well I though it's how modifications are called in openttd: newgfx
21:27:19 <Yexo> <Yexo> I still don't know what NewGRF would be <- ehm, I meant NewGFX there
21:27:30 <Yexo> no, those files are called NewGRFs
21:27:50 <stinkyfax> oh, this naming confuses me, I'll try to remember
21:28:19 <Yexo> OpenGFX is a baseset with all basic graphics which you need to play at all, OpenGFX+ is a set of NewGRFS (like OpenGFX+Trains, OpenGFX+Industries) which modify various aspects of the game
21:28:36 <Yexo> anyway, for ECS problems go complain in the forum topic about ECS
21:28:39 <stinkyfax> anotehr town requires water and food, I have trains supplying both but town doesn't grow. Should both food and water trains come to the station in same time in order to grow?
21:28:43 <Yexo> don't forget to upload your savegame there
21:30:00 <vargadanis> I actually tested what is written on the wiki page
21:30:29 <vargadanis> and my town went from 1500 to 17000 in the time the biggest town went from 14000 to 17000
21:31:19 <vargadanis> ahm is there a pack for newgrfs?
21:31:35 <Yexo> why would you need a pack? You can download a lost of them via the ingame content system
21:31:35 <planetmaker> use online content#
21:33:07 <stinkyfax> Yexo: can i somehow do hacky way and insert a water tower on a given tile?
21:33:32 <Yexo> stinkyfax: no clue without your savegame
21:35:34 <stinkyfax> mhm, thanks for help :)
21:35:40 * andythenorth needs names for truck makers
21:36:08 <andythenorth> I see what you did there
21:36:49 <andythenorth> the other sets use geography crap
21:37:07 <andythenorth> mountains, glaciers, shipping areas, suburbs
21:38:09 <stinkyfax> I am curious in which language NewGRF are made?
21:38:21 <peter1138> they're made in newgrf language
21:40:50 <stinkyfax> ah, doubt I have enough time to pass the learning curve of new language at the moment :(
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22:03:20 <andythenorth> real truck models?
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22:27:40 <stinkyfax> would be cool if powerstations were part of town grow :)
22:28:42 <Yexo> hmm, disabling auto-crop for cets leads to higher compile times :s
22:30:45 <michi_cc> Yexo: The current CETS sprites have a lot of extra blue, auto-cropping is probably less expensive than the double compression here.
22:31:59 <Terkhen> I wonder if you can use NoGo + NewGRFs to make power stations part of town growth
22:32:50 <Eddi|zuHause> power stations need some measurable output that GS can read
22:33:37 <Yexo> cets nfo output only takes 1m10s, grf output takes 2m30s
22:34:00 <frosch123> Terkhen: we were looking into letting gs define new town effects
22:34:34 <Terkhen> oh, that would be nice :)
22:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: that's not the proper solution, since that would include coal delivered to steel mills
22:34:43 <frosch123> but one of the problems is that newgrfs must be loaded before gs, so it needs some implicit definition
22:35:17 <frosch123> i wrote down some things to consider, but did not got yet to a sane spec :p
22:35:25 <Terkhen> so it's one of those "gets more complicated the more you think about it" problems
22:35:41 <frosch123> the idea was basically to make industries and houses produce town effects
22:36:11 <frosch123> while this seems to be easy for industries, we have no house production yet
22:36:22 <frosch123> that is, house production triggered by acceptance
22:36:47 <frosch123> you would somehow need to collect what towneffects the houses produce within the catchment area of the station :s
22:37:38 <Terkhen> hmm... what do you mean with "producing town effects"?
22:38:11 <frosch123> for industries it would be just a flag for the cargotype like "this cargo is not transportable by vehicles"
22:38:37 <frosch123> so a grf could define a cargo "electric power" with town effect "power". industries which produce it, deliver it directly to the nearest town
22:39:05 <frosch123> it could also define a cargotype "heating" or so
22:39:17 <frosch123> though maybe that would have some maximum transport distance or so :p
22:40:26 <Terkhen> oh, I see what you mean now
22:40:28 <frosch123> i.e. towneffect would be normal industry output production like any other cargo, just that it is not delivered to the nearest station, but to the nearest town
22:40:56 <frosch123> for houses we would need something similar. like "produce this towneffect, if this cargo is accepted"
22:41:01 <andythenorth> power station -> town growth is trivial
22:41:10 <andythenorth> have the industry put a value in storage
22:41:17 <andythenorth> have nogo read the value
22:41:21 <frosch123> currently the towneffect is defined for a cargo, but defining it at the industry/house would be nicer :)
22:41:22 <andythenorth> grow the town. or not
22:41:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, industries are easy :p
22:42:07 <andythenorth> frosch123: also "this cargo is not transportable by vehicles" - please ship that :)
22:42:10 <frosch123> but with the "virtual towneffect-cargo" you would also have a proper industry gui displaying the production
22:42:13 <andythenorth> I think it enabled pipelines ;)
22:43:05 <frosch123> however, the hardest problem is still the definition of the towneffects
22:43:22 <frosch123> imo gs shall define them, but grfs somehow have to know which types exist
22:43:36 <andythenorth> I'd file it under 'hard problem'
22:43:40 <frosch123> either gs must define them in advance via info.nut, or grfs may only test form them in varact2
22:43:58 <frosch123> since action7/9 are processed before any gs is loaded
22:44:04 <andythenorth> frosch123 can we take a simpler case?
22:44:09 <andythenorth> e.g. Building Materials
22:44:12 <frosch123> (unless we define them in info.nut)
22:44:24 <frosch123> (which would be stupid, since they could not be affected by settings or so)
22:45:08 <andythenorth> this makes my head hurt
22:45:52 <andythenorth> why have a magic cargo?
22:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so GS need loading stages
22:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> to set up stuff before newgrfs get activated
22:47:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's easier the other way round, NewGRFs define town effects, and GS checks for which ones are defined
22:48:06 <frosch123> sure it's easier. but is it useful?
22:49:21 <frosch123> why should a grf produce "power", "heating", "employment" or "wastedisposal" , if there is no gs which makes use of them?
22:50:25 <frosch123> so, imo the gs must define which effects exist, then the grf can provide them, and then the gs can check again which types can actually be provided with the available grfs
22:50:55 <andythenorth> what's the goal?
22:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you're heading into a chicken-egg loop then
22:53:39 <frosch123> but i like chicken more than eggs
22:53:39 <andythenorth> is the aim that arbitrary GS is compatible with arbitrary newgrf?
22:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and what harm does defining town effects in the grf do, which are not checked in the GS?
22:54:31 <frosch123> a grf might check for alternatives. it might want to produce power or heating depending on whether they exist
22:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: at least you'll get funny statistics :)
22:54:54 * andythenorth wonders if it's viable to maintain separation between GS and industry newgrf
22:54:55 <frosch123> however, letting the grf defnie the towneffect puts the towncontrol into the grf, and not into the gs
22:55:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: they shall stay as separate as possible, just like house and industry grfs
22:55:31 <andythenorth> but nobody can yet define 'as possible' :P
22:55:39 <frosch123> if your house grf add powerstations which accept fuel, it might want to disable them if no fuel cargo is available
22:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the GS must check anyway whether the GRFs actually support the TE
22:55:48 <andythenorth> ultimately seems like newgrf and GS are going to bleed together
22:56:03 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: currently the gs can set any te requirement, and ottd ignores not available ones
22:56:05 <andythenorth> maybe it's just better if the industry newgrf is tied to the GS
22:56:15 <frosch123> that's why alpine acutally works now in trunk :p
22:56:31 <frosch123> the food requirement in arctic is now ignored, if there is no foodish cargo
22:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting. so the Goods->TE_WATER hack can be removed from FIRS
22:57:03 <andythenorth> your house grf shouldn't be adding industry anyway, thats doing it wrong
22:57:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: sure the canadian theme pack will be extended with a canadian gs which features the exact economical data of canada from 1850 to 2010, and which will stop the game in 2010
22:57:32 <frosch123> but that should never be the goal
22:57:55 <frosch123> the goal should be modularity in independent parts, which can operate with eath other unless they mess up
22:58:08 <andythenorth> black box modularity?
22:58:20 <andythenorth> or publicly-declared interfaces modularity?
22:58:59 <frosch123> no idea, whatever suits
22:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i think GS defining TE is heading into a nightmare
22:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> GRF should define TE
22:59:17 <andythenorth> I think TE is a nightmare full stop
22:59:32 <andythenorth> whatever happened to town control grfs?
23:00:21 <peter1138> i guess that idea is obsolete :)
23:00:25 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the available te in a game should be the intersection of what newgrfs and gs know
23:01:05 <frosch123> it only gets hard when one of them wants to define their part of the intersection depending on the part of the other :p
23:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: railtypes can't check whether a vehicle for that railtype will be made available by any grf
23:01:54 * andythenorth is certainly confused :)
23:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: only vehicles can check whether a railtype will be available
23:02:19 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: but they can define tons of compatibility in case there is a vehicle for a similar railtype
23:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and the game decides an intersection
23:02:52 <frosch123> you could do the same for te like this newgrf produces A, but if A is not present produce B instead
23:03:05 <frosch123> it would be as complicated as railtype compatibility though :p
23:03:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but not as complicated as creating a dependency on GS being loaded first
23:04:45 <andythenorth> so reduced to absolutes, this is *not* about GS at all, but about how one newgrf might vary production depending on presence or absence of another newgrf
23:05:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: newgrfs can do that
23:05:44 * andythenorth might have skipped a few steps of the argument
23:05:57 <frosch123> but they cannot check for present gs, resp. what they do
23:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> presence of other GRFs is a solved problem
23:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> presence of GSs is the problem
23:06:27 <frosch123> while newgrfs are somewhat transparent to gs in at least what they define (not how it behaves), gs are totally intransparent to newgrfs :p
23:06:46 * andythenorth is not convinced it's a solved problem wrt a town grf that suddenly expects to define industries too
23:06:53 <andythenorth> but without defining cargos
23:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think it's best if it stays this way
23:07:05 <frosch123> luckily the latter is no problem in most cases, since gs do only global stuff
23:07:18 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: likely :)
23:07:39 <frosch123> allows to fix stupid grfs via gs :p
23:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it'll get some occasional "meh"s, like not being able to check for base set
23:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's least likely to actually break any concepts
23:09:16 <andythenorth> so this proposal is - newgrf cannot change behaviour depending on GS?
23:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the "do nothing" solution :)
23:09:45 <frosch123> at least not on load
23:10:03 <frosch123> but i would assume grfs want to check for te themself :p
23:10:12 <frosch123> to display appropiate houses for towns etc
23:11:11 <frosch123> so, maybe grfs can define whatever te they want, and produce it. but the gs decides which are displayed or hidden from the user, and what effect they really have
23:11:31 <andythenorth> te is a flag? or new cargo(s)?
23:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause> grfs get a TE callback, which sorta works like the production callback
23:11:48 <frosch123> e.g. a powerplant could still produce power and make houses lighted, but the gs would not care
23:12:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. by default a house produces X TE_PASSENGER upon receiving X Passengers
23:12:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: not yet decides. te are simliar to cargos is many ways, but there are also differences
23:12:52 <Yexo> if it would be a separate callback, is there any need to keep calling it "town effect"?
23:12:54 <andythenorth> I can't shake the idea of using storage
23:13:13 <andythenorth> N arbitrary registers, marked by labels if that helps compatibility
23:13:23 <Yexo> as it seems to me this would be introducing some "miscellaneous GS effect"
23:13:26 <andythenorth> newgrf can increment / decrement the amounts in the register
23:13:39 <andythenorth> GS can also increment / decrement the amounts in the register
23:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: so "Game Effect"?
23:13:54 <frosch123> Yexo: call it like you want, the current town effect properties would have no meaning anymore, so the term is kind of unused again :p
23:14:10 <andythenorth> but it currently has meaning, so that's confusing :P
23:14:15 <Yexo> but already calling it town effect now creates confusion with the existing town effect
23:14:42 <frosch123> well, the effects are summed at the nearest town
23:15:29 <frosch123> so, it is still a town effect
23:15:29 <Yexo> "New Town Effect" NTE for short?
23:15:47 <andythenorth> Yet Another Acronymed Feature
23:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> basically the suggestion is to move TE from cargos to houses/industries
23:17:07 <andythenorth> is there anything wrong with using town storage for this?
23:18:31 <frosch123> towneffects are essentially the same as town storage
23:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> "town storage" implies some kind of random access
23:18:31 <frosch123> you just have limited access to them as newgrf
23:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> across grfs, etc.
23:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but the TE callback would be write only
23:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and read only from GS side
23:18:44 <frosch123> if we make towneffects freely defineable, they would get labels. so ottd would translate them for every grf
23:18:51 <frosch123> that's not possible with registers
23:19:02 <andythenorth> for current town storage design, grf can read other grfs registers, and write it's own only?
23:19:16 <frosch123> registers would require all grf authors to agree on something, and that never worked :p
23:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to GRM, anyway? :)
23:20:27 <frosch123> it's used for actiona sprites
23:20:34 <andythenorth> have fun with this :P
23:21:04 <frosch123> hmm, though i am not sure whether custom actiona sprites are still required somewhere
23:21:23 <frosch123> ah, yes, for custom vehicle recolouring :)
23:21:52 <frosch123> michi_cc: yeah, but industries/houses/objects can define their recolouring in action1 meanwhile :)
23:22:06 <frosch123> so, only vehicles :p
23:22:33 <michi_cc> Advanced sprite layout for vehicles? ;)
23:22:39 <vargadanis> this is completly addicting
23:22:54 <michi_cc> Might even make sense for vehicle + cargo layering.
23:23:17 <frosch123> michi_cc: just never allow grf authors to define bounding boxes :p
23:23:33 <michi_cc> No pony for Eddi then? :)
23:23:38 <frosch123> that was already a mistake for stations and houses
23:24:01 <frosch123> custom bounding boxes are completely unneeded for stations/houses/industries, grf authors can only mess things up :p
23:26:31 <frosch123> anyway, i have a great idea!
23:31:48 <peter1138> personal_dir and shared_dir are set to \"1\" :S
23:33:39 <Yexo> you have a very old grfcodec :p
23:33:53 <peter1138> but it doesn't throw an error then
23:34:00 <peter1138> it just continues with spurious values
23:35:41 <peter1138> i think it should either not return, or exit 1
23:37:35 <peter1138> config.lib:947 & 953
23:37:35 <peter1138> removing the "return 0s" lets it carry on and work normally
23:37:35 <peter1138> i still get that wobbly message but it's not deadly
23:37:35 <Yexo> the return 0 there is wrong indeed
continue to next day ⏵
