IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-16
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00:01:38 <TrueBrain> building NoGo 1.1 :D Whiiee :D :)
00:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it always scares me when removing random lines doesn't change the behaviour of the program...
00:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> GUI _always_ scares me...
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00:20:50 <fjb|tab> Did you fall down one of your climbing walls? :-)
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00:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> is that just my impression or did cets compile time increase even more?
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10:49:15 <dihedral> "A greeble or nurnie is a small piece of detailing added to break up the surface of an object"
10:49:22 <dihedral> ok peter1138 if that makes you feel better ....
10:51:18 <peter1138> allowed cargo classes 0000000000000001
10:51:26 <peter1138> disallowed cargo classes 1111111111111011
10:51:49 <peter1138> i'll post it in their thread :p
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11:25:09 <fjb|tab> That is the automatic pax reduction feature.
11:36:35 <Alberth> kkmic: hai, wouldn't a new WT be great, for all NewGRFs ?
11:37:20 <kkmic> I don't have knowledge about the inner workings of the translator and the newgrf system
11:37:40 <kkmic> what would be needed in the next version?
11:38:12 <planetmaker> well. The important constraints for the translator is to produce language files of OpenTTD. To offer new strings for translations as is done now. To make change history visible
11:38:28 <planetmaker> To search in the strings to make it easier to ensure some consistency for translations
11:39:01 <planetmaker> i.e. search for 'height level' and see how it was translated in other strings
11:39:06 <kkmic> and keep a version history of each string?
11:39:20 <planetmaker> yes, that's done currently.
11:39:32 <Alberth> in a version control system mostly
11:39:39 <planetmaker> but that's also done in the svn, of course or could be extracted there. Not sure whether it's (also) in a translation DB
11:39:47 <kkmic> I haven't seen it from my end.. I'm just a translator :)
11:41:03 <planetmaker> of course the system must also validate all strings against correct syntax (e.g. case, gender, parameters)
11:41:10 <kkmic> No, I was asking if the WT keps an independent version history for each string... sometime older versions contains hints and such
11:41:27 <planetmaker> but it can always get that from svn history
11:41:42 <planetmaker> if it doesn't do its own accounting. Might even be better.
11:43:19 <kkmic> Should be in it's own database. It's faster. And it does not interfere with is being committed
11:43:33 <kkmic> *with what is being commited
11:44:30 <Alberth> TrueBrain had the idea to base everything on a REST architecture
11:45:04 <Alberth> so you can have clients downloading data, and uploading changes
11:45:50 <Alberth> if you add newgrf support, you are going to have a lot of entities with translations in several languages
11:46:40 <planetmaker> kkmic: it will need updating itself then with the svn
11:46:55 <planetmaker> the svn is the authorative instance - and the svn can change stuff
11:47:07 <planetmaker> in principle in every language.
11:48:17 <planetmaker> kkmic: what would be a good addition is a "discussion" type of thing related to single strings
11:49:01 <Alberth> it relates names (at the left) with text (at the right). The translations are all in the same directory (or in lang/unfinished)
11:58:36 <planetmaker> newgrfs have the additional difficulty: you'd need to store strings by version
11:59:29 <kkmic> Yeah, a discussion/comments would be a good addition
11:59:57 <kkmic> I think this could be easily added to the current architecture
12:01:39 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: what difficulties would be involved to get a "clone" of the WT3 machine into another VM for testing changes to a WT?
12:02:00 <kkmic> How does the current WT gets the strings list?
12:02:14 <kkmic> Directly from the SVN? Is the process automatic?
12:02:34 <Alberth> part of a post-commit hook would be my guess
12:03:17 <kkmic> Also, does it keep an internal copy of the data? Or everything is based on updates/commits to the svn? From the changelog, I guess it's the former
12:04:44 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, first off, we are out of RAM atm :p So that is a huge difficulty :) And I have no clue what you mean with: "for testing changes to a WT". Which 'a' you refer to?
12:05:00 <Alberth> it builds a new text-file for every language afaik, which gets pushed to subversion (who then makes a diff)
12:06:15 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: my idea is to offer a clone of the current way WT works on another VM which does not commit to svn. But which allows to test stuff
12:06:32 <planetmaker> and which allows then interested parties to try their ideas of what would work
12:06:38 <TrueBrain> WT3.0 should not be developed on, so that would be a bad idea
12:06:42 <planetmaker> It must not be on our machine
12:06:57 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you say that. But let people find out that themselves.
12:07:16 <planetmaker> And see how it works. On a live system (just w/o feedback to svn)
12:07:37 <TrueBrain> I have no interest 'wasting' my time in that, sorry :)
12:07:44 <TrueBrain> Making a clone alone would take me several hours
12:07:51 <TrueBrain> only for them to find out the code is unreadable
12:07:56 <TrueBrain> we have had this talk before, didn't we? :)
12:08:13 <TrueBrain> I am pretty sure we did :D But that is not important :)
12:08:27 <Alberth> it is somewhere publically available?
12:08:44 <planetmaker> that's the point. It's not documented anywhere how it interfaces, can interface and all this shit
12:08:51 <planetmaker> Thus the system itself is the only documentation
12:09:16 <planetmaker> And thus no-one can reasonably work or think about it anyway, except you and maybe Rubi who know the system architecture and interfaces in detail
12:09:21 <TrueBrain> well, I once had a subversion with WT3.1 in it, which has all the info
12:09:29 <TrueBrain> but that domain expired, well, got redirected
12:09:39 <TrueBrain> and I have no idea where the fuck I left the subversion :P
12:09:58 <planetmaker> And thus the idea: get a clone. It has the necessary interfaces. Which then new stuff can used to get starting
12:10:05 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: it is unreasnoable to think that the WT3.0 source would give any insight :)
12:10:29 <planetmaker> I find it actually quite sad that you block *every* attempt by saying that wt3 is a dead end and won't even have anyone look at it
12:10:52 <planetmaker> and I'd leave the decision whether it's fruitful to interested people
12:10:57 <kkmic_> Internet failure. What did I missed?
12:11:36 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: the main issue is, that the interfaces are not clear. And they're in that WM
12:11:43 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: we really had this discussion before :D
12:12:14 <planetmaker> yes, and you kill every attempt by denying even a look at the current state :-(
12:12:16 <TrueBrain> and you know what the funny part is planetmaker? You never asked if I have documentation about WT, or if I can help out developing
12:12:18 <Alberth> can we not agree on some interface?
12:12:21 <TrueBrain> you keep blaming me I am blocking something
12:12:25 <TrueBrain> yet you never ask if I want to help?
12:13:11 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you wanting to help or not is not the issue or question. I've no idea whether you want it or not.
12:13:12 <TrueBrain> and you know too planetmaker, you have no clue how the code is, looks like, how it is installed, and what is requires. So it is a bit odd you make all these assumptions on it
12:13:18 <planetmaker> Rcently you keep saying you have no time
12:13:26 <kkmic_> TrueBrain: is the current WT based on any public framework? Or is everything built "in house"?
12:13:37 <TrueBrain> kkmic_: written from scratch
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12:13:49 <Alberth> TrueBrain: what is the best way for kkmic to start?
12:14:01 <TrueBrain> Alberth: heavily depends on his abilities tbh
12:14:06 <TrueBrain> best would to make a design document first
12:14:13 <TrueBrain> collect what is needed for this new WT
12:14:18 <TrueBrain> what the demands are, constraints
12:14:26 <kkmic> I need documentation regarding the interface with other systems
12:14:31 <TrueBrain> I did that for WT3.0, and it was really useful
12:14:48 <TrueBrain> of course you cannot implement everythng, but at least you can get a general idea and aim
12:15:04 <Alberth> kkmic: interfacing is not the big issue imho, you are communicating with text files, or patches
12:15:13 <kkmic> And we need to clearly establish the goals of the WT
12:15:32 <TrueBrain> there is a lot of documentation, bug reports, developers-documents about what a new WT should do
12:15:34 <Alberth> kkmic: that would be the first thing in the document imho :)
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12:15:40 <TrueBrain> spread out atm, which is a bitch
12:15:49 <kkmic> Maybe, but why reinvent the wheel when I can use something that already works?
12:16:18 <TrueBrain> kkmic: there is nothing atm that 'works'
12:16:33 <TrueBrain> WT3.0 is build wrong, sadly enough, and hooks into OpenTTD in ways that are not practicle
12:16:43 <Alberth> kkmic: im general TrueBrain knows what he is saying, so believe him when he says it is not readable :)
12:16:49 <kkmic> I had the impression that WT works for what i was intended to do
12:16:51 <TrueBrain> I have a framework for WT3.1, but I have no clue where the source is
12:17:09 <TrueBrain> also, ther eI noticed huge issues with svn and Python
12:17:17 <TrueBrain> but I believe there is a newer module which solves those issues
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12:21:02 <TrueBrain> dihedral: do you have any clue where noaddedsuger pointed to? :P
12:23:09 <TrueBrain> lol; forgot I once wrote a CoucheDB version
12:25:59 <dihedral> TrueBrain, you mean wt3? ;-)
12:26:33 <TrueBrain> an IP it pointed to :P
12:26:44 <TrueBrain> I have no clue on which VPS I instaleld it :P
12:27:06 <dihedral> dig noaddedsugar.net? :-p
12:27:21 <TrueBrain> no, you changed it a few months (years?) ago back to yourself remember?
12:27:31 <kkmic> Hmm... in what language is WT written?
12:27:44 <dihedral> 85.17.162.189 and 2001:1af8:4100:a000:1::21
12:27:52 <dihedral> i was thinking about it, but i never did
12:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> anybody has a clue about a program that can repair video files if the header is missing?
12:28:14 <TrueBrain> and those IPs expired long ago :P
12:28:38 <dihedral> yeah - with the end of openttd.org at leaseweb
12:28:39 <kkmic> Well, since I only know PHP....
12:28:54 <TrueBrain> ah; I did install it on the LW machine
12:30:31 <TrueBrain> dihedral: found it :D:D
12:30:58 <dihedral> you know - you could host it over at dev.openttdcoop.org
12:31:21 <planetmaker> that's what I wanted to suggest.
12:31:21 <TrueBrain> last changed: Jul 2009
12:31:32 <TrueBrain> it is one of my (many) failed attempts :P
12:31:34 <dihedral> i beat you to it, planetmaker ;-)
12:31:34 <kkmic> So, the question arises: Ho can I lend a hand if WT is built using Python and I can program in PHP?
12:31:50 <planetmaker> Playground. Experimenting ground. If something comes from it: wonderful. If not...
12:32:06 <Alberth> and/or learn Python :)
12:32:12 <Alberth> it's a fun language :)
12:32:17 <dihedral> learn python - if you know php, you know you can learn programming languages, do not be scared of python
12:32:43 <planetmaker> whatever. I'll be happy to provide the infrastructure on the devzone
12:32:48 * dihedral should start the nightly server again :-P
12:32:50 <TrueBrain> I would advise against a WT in PHP; we have had that, the performance was rubbish :D (but it is just that: advise)
12:32:59 <kkmic> Anything can be made given enough time and resources. But then again I come to the reinvent the wheel question
12:33:37 <Alberth> kkmic: we have come to the conclusion that the current wheel will not fit in the car of tomorrow
12:33:56 <kkmic> TrueBrain: You mean the WT before the current version? Or was it another?
12:34:13 <planetmaker> we have WT3. There was a WT2
12:34:16 <TrueBrain> ugh, some basic background
12:34:21 <TrueBrain> we have had many WTs over the years
12:34:24 <TrueBrain> most noticable: WT2
12:34:35 <TrueBrain> written in PHP by MiHaMiX
12:34:40 <TrueBrain> worked for .. I think a year or 2, 3
12:34:46 <TrueBrain> for that time even more
12:34:57 <TrueBrain> but there were some issues; style-wise it was a bit poor, and performance was bad
12:35:14 <TrueBrain> so I wrote WT3, based on Django (Python), to work inside our current website (also Django)
12:35:28 <TrueBrain> worked well till about a year ago I think? Then NML came and needed translation too
12:35:33 <TrueBrain> soon we have GS that needs translation too
12:35:43 <TrueBrain> and there is one huge bug in cases in WT3, which I cannot solve :(
12:35:56 <TrueBrain> The interface too is getting obsolete, and is in need for modern webtechniques
12:36:19 <TrueBrain> for example, WT3 was originally not written to work with UTF-8
12:36:23 <TrueBrain> to just name one of the sillyness :)
12:36:38 <TrueBrain> so since .. begin 2009, I have been trying to rewrite WT3, called WT3.1
12:36:42 <TrueBrain> in a way that it would work
12:36:54 <TrueBrain> sadly, I always been alone in programming it, and because of that it never finished
12:37:17 <TrueBrain> I have had one that was most promising, but Python+svn fucked me over, and I dropped it like a stone :)
12:37:23 <kkmic> The interface, as it is, works pretty well for me.
12:37:33 <TrueBrain> it works, sure; but it is old
12:37:43 <TrueBrain> there are better, more modern ways to do things
12:37:46 <TrueBrain> for example: jquery
12:38:06 <kkmic> Yeah, it's old. Maybe. But is it worth to change it? I really think it's good as it is
12:38:06 <dihedral> 07 was the time of ... _Karin
12:38:30 <TrueBrain> kkmic: well, I think a good use-case test would show you many improvements :)
12:38:48 <TrueBrain> history is rather annoying, walking through strings feels old and sluggish
12:38:53 <TrueBrain> my personal list is rather large :D
12:39:01 <kkmic> I'm not talking about the technology used, I'm talking about the usability standpoint
12:39:01 <TrueBrain> basic concept is good, but a lot of details that need changing
12:39:03 <dihedral> improving, yes - rewrite? would it really need that?
12:39:32 <kkmic> dihedral: I agree with you
12:39:35 <TrueBrain> I was not talkinga bout the code either :) Just from a use-case point of view
12:39:59 <TrueBrain> mostly what I always wanted, is some way to display 'hints'
12:39:59 <dihedral> and what is the problem with cases, TrueBrain
12:40:07 <TrueBrain> to keep translations consistent
12:40:14 <TrueBrain> dihedral: don't use them :D:D:D
12:40:40 <TrueBrain> once a blue monday WT3 barks again, because someone added a case and removed it in some order
12:40:46 <TrueBrain> then I have to manually reset WT again ...
12:40:56 <TrueBrain> the things you don't see as normal user :P
12:41:36 <TrueBrain> dihedral: mind changing noaddedsugar to ... 178.33.34.239 for a few days?
12:41:47 <TrueBrain> then I can boot this VPS I hope ..... not sure tbh :P
12:44:28 <kkmic> Well, it the next WT won't be using PHP I am of only minimal help I'm afraid. I could give you a rundown of what I would like to see in the next WT and what worked and not worked for me in the current version
12:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, limiting yourself to "i can only program <one language>" is silly
12:46:12 <dihedral> TrueBrain, need IPv6 too?
12:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> almost all programming languages are sufficiently similar that they can easily be learned if you already know one
12:46:49 <TrueBrain> well, Python is a bit of an exception there, but yeah .. both imperative languages :)
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12:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause> especially python is one of the easiest languages to learn-as-you-go-along
12:48:15 <Alberth> kkmic: it is common to see problems as an opportunity to learn something new :p
12:49:50 <TrueBrain> how long is your TTL? :)
12:51:06 <kkmic> Alberth: True, unfortunately learning requires free time, which is something that my current RL does not allow me too much to be able to learn a new language AND do something tangible with it in a reasonable amount of time
12:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if your "RL" prevents you from learning, then you have the wrong job...
12:52:02 <dihedral> you might want to touch the nginx config? :-P
12:52:05 <Alberth> kkmic: we are in no hurry, otherwise someone would have written a new version already
12:52:20 <TrueBrain> dihedral: why? That exact URL works :P
12:52:29 <Xaroth> the url works for me :o
12:52:38 <dihedral> just without www. ;-)
12:52:58 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: and just a FYI, if you would had just asked if I had documentation about how a new WT would need to be designed, the same would have happened, without you accusing me of 'blocking' *every* attempt ....
12:53:03 <Xaroth> kkmic: then helping out with something huge like WT isn't going to help either
12:53:55 <kkmic> Well, it was a challenge
12:54:07 <TrueBrain> dihedral: there, added www :P
12:54:09 <Xaroth> learning python is a more fun challenge tbqfh :P
12:54:12 <TrueBrain> dihedral: tnx a lot :D I am still out of domains :(
12:54:13 <kkmic> Unfortunetely, I'm on the wrong side of the mountain, it seems
12:55:42 <TrueBrain> Added by Patric 'TrueBrain' Stout 871 days ago <- the good old days :D
12:55:51 <Alberth> kkmic: for what it is worth, I have programmed a bit of PHP, and was annoyed by it very soon. I also programmed Python, and found it MUCH more fun.
12:56:09 <Alberth> so you might enjoy learning a new language :)
12:56:39 <planetmaker> Well, sorry TrueBrain. Nice to see that indeed. I'd had hoped for this at the same time when it comes to "WT3 is not worth looking at".
12:56:40 <Xaroth> aye, python is more -fun- programming :P
12:57:12 <Xaroth> planetmaker: there's a dutch saying for that
12:57:21 <Alberth> Xaroth: until you have an application of a several 10,000 lines of code :)
12:57:38 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: fair enough :)
12:57:44 <Xaroth> Alberth: I do.. well.. maybe not several, but i've hit 14+k lines at least
12:58:01 <Alberth> that's pretty big already :)
12:58:30 <Xaroth> well it's at least -somewhat- organised..
12:58:39 <planetmaker> Xaroth: there are many Dutch sayings
12:58:47 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: new website is just 1.6k LoC :P
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12:59:05 <Xaroth> my home server codebase is 5k
12:59:25 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: yeh, the new website can use another few K LoC
12:59:30 <Xaroth> planetmaker: yeh, but that one was a funny saying :P
12:59:31 <TrueBrain> kkmic: personally, I really don't care which language WT3.1 / WT4 would be written in. I favour Python, mostly because most of OpenTTD is in Python (NML, Website, ...)
12:59:42 <Xaroth> you'd have to be dutch or understand dutch to get it tho :P
12:59:59 <TrueBrain> PHP is one of my least favorites, mostly because it doesnt remember its state between requests
13:00:04 <TrueBrain> so stuff gets REALLY expensive really fast :)
13:00:14 <Xaroth> PHP is bloated as well
13:00:22 <TrueBrain> bloated or not, I don't care
13:00:31 <TrueBrain> but that every requests needs to build up its state ....
13:00:37 <TrueBrain> NML is a language to write NewGRFs in
13:00:38 <planetmaker> Xaroth: Have fune hinting at unquoted sayings in a foreign language.
13:00:55 <TrueBrain> which allows translations in the same style as OpenTTD language files
13:01:35 <TrueBrain> (for which we want a WT to be capable of processing that)
13:01:39 <kkmic> I'm not saying that PHP is the best, but it's the only one I know and we use it here for every project, small and large, and it does it's job well
13:01:54 <kkmic> Speaking of job, I have on to get back to :)
13:02:00 <TrueBrain> kkmic: it is good for many things :)
13:02:00 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: yes, I'm now really happy about this. May it be unfinished and whatever. It's something "give" people.
13:02:03 <kkmic> *Speaking of job, I have one to get back to :)
13:02:12 <TrueBrain> have fun working kkmic :)
13:02:13 <planetmaker> To show them that one cares. To give them an idea.
13:02:27 <planetmaker> Which is nice. Tremendously nicer than 'dead end'
13:02:33 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, then I suggest you move it to the devzone, or keep dihedral happy :P
13:03:12 <kkmic> It was a nice chat guys, see ya
13:05:33 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: talking about our "dead end" , it is the same as BaNaNaS. All people want to do is make small changes to the code to 'improve it', without them understanding that sometimes a piece of code went so far the wrong way, it is at a dead end and should be rewritten. In the example of BaNaNaS, the full source is available, yet nobody wants to do it
13:06:05 <TrueBrain> it often makes me sad; seems people are only interested in helping out with the 'easy' stuff
13:06:23 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: mind that I DO take your word on it, or at least have no doubt that it definitely will be the better solution
13:06:42 <TrueBrain> the main reason we still have the copy of the LW machine running, is because of WT :(
13:06:45 <TrueBrain> I cannot move it :(
13:06:52 <TrueBrain> it is _that_ bad :P
13:07:11 <TrueBrain> and tnx planetmaker :)
13:07:47 <planetmaker> My only concern - all what I said here today, and also other occasions - it's mostly that if it's accessible, people can see it.
13:08:03 <planetmaker> And often even seeing the old attempt is a good study case before re-designing it from scratch
13:08:19 <planetmaker> It teaches. What works. What doesn't work. What somewhat works
13:08:20 <TrueBrain> if someone is truly interested, I have many many test-cases :P
13:08:41 <TrueBrain> but 90% stop caring when they understand that have to make some kind of design document first :(
13:08:56 <planetmaker> Well, sure. But you know how it goes: Before making a commitment, it's much easier and nicer if one can get an idea about the scope, size, extend and type of problems at hand
13:08:58 <TrueBrain> I guess I am a bit grumpy when it comes to that ;)
13:09:39 <TrueBrain> but so yeah ... just ask if you want to know something; that is rarely a real issue :)
13:09:52 <TrueBrain> ugh, those ugly amazon cookies? They are old! :P
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14:11:31 <dihedral> <TrueBrain> dihedral: tnx a lot :D I am still out of domains :( <- i'm not :-P
14:11:43 <dihedral> still have codecubes.org too :-P
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14:14:30 <TrueBrain> @kick howdoyousolveaproblemlikemaria like this
14:14:30 *** howdoyousolveaproblemlikemaria was kicked by DorpsGek (like this)
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14:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i've done so much refactoring now, i probably made everything even worse...
14:41:01 <Alberth> nothing a 'revert' cannot fix :D
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14:45:18 <peter1138> or the patch to remove all bugs
14:45:42 <peter1138> dihedral, are they like cubicles?
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16:23:51 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23529 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: make all widget enum values unique and make them include the files they need to compile
16:25:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23530 /trunk/src/ (waypoint_gui.cpp widgets/waypoint_widget.h): -Codechange: begin unify the naming of widgets and add comments to them, in this case the waypoint view widgets
16:27:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23531 /trunk/src/ (36 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
16:29:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23532 /trunk/src/ (viewport_gui.cpp widgets/viewport_widget.h): -Codechange: unify widget naming of (extra) viewport
16:32:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23533 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp widgets/group_widget.h): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
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16:39:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23534 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
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16:42:05 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23535 /trunk/src/ (transparency_gui.cpp widgets/transparency_widget.h): -Codechange: unify widget naming of transparency toolbar
16:49:55 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23536 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
16:53:18 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23537 /trunk/src/widgets/ (rail_widget.h road_widget.h sign_widget.h subsidy_widget.h): -Fix (r23529): typo in the word 'because' (tnx to Alberth for noticing)
16:57:16 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23538 /trunk/src/ (tree_gui.cpp widgets/tree_widget.h): -Codechange: Consistent naming of widgets in tree plant gui
16:57:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23539 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp widgets/depot_widget.h): -Codechange: prevent conflict between widget naming of (vehicle) depots and vehicle details
16:59:03 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23540 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: unify and document vehicle widgets
17:01:17 <Hirundo> collaborative widget renaming commit spree (CWRCS) going on?
17:03:47 <Ammler> hehe, you fix typoes in the comments :-P
17:09:54 <TrueBrain> they are as important as any other :)
17:15:46 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23541 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Consistent naming of widgets in NewGRF debug window
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17:23:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23542 /trunk/src/ (town_gui.cpp widgets/town_widget.h): -Codechange: unify and document town related widgets
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17:46:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23543 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_gui.cpp widgets/newgrf_widget.h): -Codechange: Document and name consistently widgets of NewGRF window
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18:01:50 <Amis> If I'm creating a scenarion where can I set it to be "Funding only" regarding industries?
18:02:33 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23544 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
18:02:35 <Alberth> you set it before you create the scenario, I think
18:03:30 <Alberth> Finally I can understand widgets :p
18:04:07 <Amis> Alberth, the options are greyed out
18:04:17 <planetmaker> Amis: yes. Only prior to map creation
18:04:25 <planetmaker> thus prior you start creating the scenario
18:04:40 <Alberth> it is not in the options, it is in the create-world window
18:06:17 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23545 /trunk/src/ (object_gui.cpp widgets/object_widget.h): -Codechange: Consistently name widgets in build object window
18:06:25 <Amis> I guess the option is missing
18:07:13 <Alberth> I am wondering why it is the case. I cannot see a problem, but quite likely I am overlooking something
18:08:08 <Amis> Alberth, click Scenario Editor
18:08:19 <Amis> There's no way of setting the industries to funding only
18:08:40 <Amis> So if I play the map there will be new industries over time
18:08:42 <Alberth> the question is why that is the case
18:08:43 <Amis> And you can't disable it
18:08:56 <Amis> When you generate a map you can disable it
18:09:04 <Amis> But that's not the case with the scenario editor
18:10:24 <Amis> So it's a "missing feature"
18:10:49 <Amis> Unless I can set it in the console
18:11:10 <Alberth> I would assume that it was disabled for a reason, the problem is that I don't know that reason
18:13:04 <Alberth> even if the console allows it, it is still a missing feature imho, you should be able to set scenario properties without messing with consoles
18:13:51 <Amis> Gonna put it into the trac
18:14:13 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23546 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
18:15:03 <TrueBrain> we don't use trac :P
18:15:12 <TrueBrain> (Well, we do, but read-only)
18:20:28 <Amis> It seems you can actually "change" it in a way
18:20:57 <Amis> The settings of a new scenario defaults to the current difficult settings
18:21:05 <Amis> But you can't change it after the scenario is created
18:21:14 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23547 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
18:21:42 <Alberth> yes, and I think it is for consistency reasons
18:22:50 <Alberth> that is, you inherit ALL settings from the main menu, rather than only some of them can be changed afterwards
18:23:27 <Amis> But you should be able to change it
18:23:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23548 /trunk/src/ (toolbar_gui.cpp widgets/toolbar_widget.h): -Codechange: unify and document toolbar widgets
18:23:42 <Amis> You create a noice scenario the n"oh shi-" you started with the wrong settings
18:23:59 <Amis> Editor should about editing stuff
18:24:12 <Amis> (like disabling industry spawning)
18:24:37 <Alberth> the SE is quite under-developed
18:25:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23549 /trunk/src/ (order_gui.cpp widgets/order_widget.h): -Codechange: Document and consistently name widgets of order GUI
18:27:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23550 /trunk/src/ (osk_gui.cpp widgets/osk_widget.h): -Codechange: unify naming of the on screen keyboard widgets
18:27:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23551 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: document and rename widgets to be consistent and understandable
18:31:00 <planetmaker> so... which files are free?
18:32:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23552 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp widgets/news_widget.h): -Codechange: unify naming of the news widgets
18:33:04 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23553 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: avoid naming conflict in widget enums
18:33:54 <Alberth> Amis: it has been this way since nov 2007 at least, and probably longer
18:34:14 <Amis> Alberth, it didn't matter before because there was no "funding only" option
18:34:46 <Amis> I know it's not that new but it's just that SE slipped through the update without being modified
18:34:53 <Alberth> but you did have different industry densities
18:35:08 <Amis> But that did not affect spawning rate
18:42:21 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23554 /trunk/src/widgets/ (6 files): -Codechange: some minor consistency fixes
18:43:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23555 /trunk/src/widgets/ (5 files): -Fix (r23554): save before commit
18:43:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23556 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp widgets/rail_widget.h): -Codechange: unify rail widget naming and document them
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18:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23557 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 9 changes by NG
18:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 110 changes by Tucalipe
18:45:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: swedish - 10 changes by Zuu
18:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: urdu - 160 changes by haider
18:47:55 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23558 /trunk/src/widgets/rail_widget.h: -Fix (r23556): ctrl-z too few ;)
18:49:55 <TrueBrain> so ~30 commits for name changes
18:52:17 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23559 /trunk/src/ (road_gui.cpp widgets/road_widget.h): -Codechange: Document and name consistently road build widgets
18:52:37 <planetmaker> commits are for free ;-)
18:55:28 <Alberth> yeah, but what about all those bits that you use? :)
18:56:27 <planetmaker> they're enslaved :-P
18:57:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23560 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: final pieces of consistency through widgets
18:57:53 <planetmaker> one commit to rule them all, one commit to find them, one commit to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
18:57:58 <planetmaker> or along those lines :-P
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19:02:32 <TrueBrain> no more tea for you my friend :D
19:08:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23561 /trunk/src/widgets/graph_widget.h: -Codechange: forgot to document 1 widget enum
19:09:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23562 /trunk/src/widgets/company_widget.h: -Codechange: don't be lazy with the spacebar
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19:13:59 * andythenorth had another baby
19:19:00 <Rubidium> he could just name the baby boy
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19:23:12 <TrueBrain> can someone explain to me WHY I opened that link? :(
19:24:43 <Rubidium> the only reason I can think of: because you like Boy George
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19:25:33 <fjb|tab> Curiosity kills the TrueBrain.
19:29:17 <fjb|tab> planetmaker: How about walking to the Brocken?
19:29:48 <planetmaker> In principle: why not? :-) But how snowy is it?
19:31:36 <fjb|tab> A bit. The railway closed its service, a bit windy, too.
19:32:10 <fjb|tab> The hotel is also closed.
19:33:11 <fjb|tab> Speed of the wind is about 120km/h.
19:36:51 <Alberth> planetmaker: I thought about the industry settings, and imho enabling it in the world-generation window in the SE makes no sense, as there is no OK button
19:37:02 <Alberth> wyrzym: please tell us :)
19:37:03 <wyrzym> whene i start the game i cannot build anything
19:37:07 <Alberth> wyrzym: and welcome :)
19:37:29 <planetmaker> that's the problem :-)
19:37:41 <wyrzym> old ttd alow to build form 1910
19:38:15 <planetmaker> OpenTTD allows that, too.
19:38:17 <Alberth> no, TTDX started in 1950 too
19:38:23 <planetmaker> But the default vehicles are not available then.
19:38:47 <Alberth> you can start earlier, but you have to activate some early vehicle newgrfs before
19:38:48 <planetmaker> And the vehicles of OpenTTD by default are the same wrt introduction dates as TTD
19:38:53 <wyrzym> so, if i want to play from 1920 i have to...? download models? :>
19:43:14 <fjb|tab> With the right vehicles set you can start in 1700. But horse carriages tend to get boring after a while.
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20:30:40 <Alberth> congratulations andy!
20:30:53 <andythenorth> I didn't do much tbh
20:35:36 <planetmaker> hey andythenorth, congratz! :-)
20:35:38 <Rubidium> congratulations andy and motherof(childof(andy)) ;)
20:35:54 <andythenorth> apparently we're stopping at 2
20:36:15 <andythenorth> my view is, once you figure out a problem, you should scale the solution :P
20:36:23 <andythenorth> apparently this is not applicable in this case
20:36:45 <Alberth> 9 months is so very much fixed :)
20:36:45 <planetmaker> not sure that's a thing to discuss your wife hours after giving birth ;-)
20:40:14 <fjb|tab> Congratulations andythenorth.
20:40:43 <planetmaker> I hope all are well, andythenorth :-)
20:40:48 <planetmaker> Did you decide on a name yet?
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20:42:44 <Rubidium> I did suggest boy, and boy did TB like the like for that suggestion ;)
20:43:01 <andythenorth> also - now is probably a good time to work on FIRS
20:43:09 <andythenorth> as the toddler is asleep
20:43:15 <andythenorth> and the baby + wife are 50 miles away
20:43:53 <frosch123> 50 miles? you are quite living in the woods
20:44:30 <Rubidium> probably no decent hospital in the vicinity
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20:47:29 <fjb|tab> Numbering the children would be easier than naming them.
20:47:43 <Xaroth> and wouldn't it be wise to stock up on some sleep, seeing you won't be seeing much of that the next few months :P
20:48:02 <Xaroth> fjb|tab: 1 of 9, 2 of 9 .. gets a bit awkward if 7 isn't a girl though..
20:48:06 <Alberth> fjb|tab: but you'd get so many children called 'one' in a class
20:48:44 <Xaroth> Alberth: that just requires a N of N suffix :P
20:49:23 <Xaroth> and the motto "Resistance is futile" for the local sheriff dept..
20:49:25 <andythenorth> fjb|tab: funny you should mention that
20:49:38 <andythenorth> the name of the first one literally translates as 'first' from Sanskrit
20:49:57 <andythenorth> there is another traditional sanskrit name which translates as 'second child'
20:50:02 <andythenorth> but my wife has ruled it out :(
20:52:00 <Xaroth> andythenorth: wasn't Sanskrit one of those languages that has a lot of words with the same meaning?
20:52:22 <fjb|tab> Alberth: We had 3 Michaels in our class. And you could use a scheme of subnumbering: 1.1, 1.2, and etc...
20:53:17 <frosch123> there was this story about the woman who named all her children the same, and used the father's name for distinguishing :p
20:54:15 <Alberth> my grand father was also called Albert, so we had a 'senior' and a 'junior' Albert :)
20:54:35 <Rubidium> andythenorth: use Kofi (then you always know what day he was born)
21:02:47 <TrueBrain> concratz andythenorth :)
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22:04:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23563 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Cleanup: remove useless global variable from strgen; it would always be false at the point it would be read
22:29:31 <Cardiz> How many players were in OpenTTD before the some Yogscast's action
22:30:25 <Cardiz> But well, 25k of new players is still nice.
22:30:46 <Alberth> if they all stay, yes :)
22:31:13 <Cardiz> The game can be a little complicated at start, and mostly people give up at the first minutes and uninstall the game.
22:31:19 <Alberth> some will stick probably
22:31:42 <Cardiz> I'll be honest: The only reason why I am playing OpenTTD is the graphics.
22:32:54 <Alberth> hmm, maybe I am too old :) I play for building tracks and stations, shuffling stuff around to make room for more tracks/trains
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22:35:24 <planetmaker> Seems there are many ways to enjoy the game :-)
22:36:11 <Chris_Booth> hi planetmaker long time no talk
22:36:31 * Alberth is glad most of the 117 do not respond :)
22:36:53 <Chris_Booth> 117 highlights would be hell
22:37:44 <frosch123> Cardiz: while yogscast gave a short peak, the download numbers for 1.0.0 were a lot higher
22:37:57 <frosch123> it was featured on multiple smaller sites
22:38:17 <frosch123> while every of those peaks were not as big as the yogscast one, they were more in total
22:38:34 <Alberth> I once sent a chain email around. I needed to send it 15 times or so in 24 hours, so I sent one email every hour + something, back to original sender :p
22:38:39 <Wolf01> [23:35:33] <planetmaker> Seems there are many ways to enjoy the game :-) <- I like to play old savegames to un-entangle the tracks, starting a new game is boring
22:39:17 <Alberth> Wolf01: oh that's nice, I do that sometimes with random savegames from the forum
22:40:06 <planetmaker> :-) yeah, can be nice
22:40:38 <planetmaker> when I play on our public server, one thing I enjoy most is improve or exand a live hub without interrupting flow
22:40:58 <planetmaker> blocking all entry and re-building is something many can :-)
22:41:20 <planetmaker> re-building while keeping traffic and not crashing trains... takes longer but is more fun
22:41:29 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: the road worker
22:41:36 <Wolf01> I do all my changes live
22:42:52 <Wolf01> and if I find the section too hard, I just put some bypass routes
22:43:59 <frosch123> planetmaker: that approach has the prerequisite that you start fixing the problem before it is completely jammed up :p
22:45:23 <Chris_Booth> but if that is the case you have bigger issues that the one junction you are working on
22:46:08 <Cardiz> Railway networks are my personal horrors.
22:47:01 <Cardiz> How do I make trains and cars not slow down when driving up the hill?
22:47:10 <Cardiz> In some servers they don't slow down.
22:47:39 <Chris_Booth> change the acceleration model
22:47:51 <Chris_Booth> there are 2 in game orignal and realistic
22:48:02 <Chris_Booth> you can also chage slope gradient
22:48:11 <Cardiz> I changed the slope gradient to zero.
22:48:55 <Chris_Booth> then change the acceleration model to realisitic
22:49:10 <Alberth> Cardiz: it's much easier to just play at a flat surface then :)
22:50:04 <Cardiz> I cannot make the world flat.
22:50:24 <Alberth> start the scenario editor, make a flat map, save, play
22:50:51 <Alberth> or even just a heightmap with 1 colour :p
22:51:48 <Alberth> but imho, mountains and break-downs add to the challenge :D
22:52:11 <Alberth> especially in arctic climate
22:52:42 <Cardiz> Chris, changing the accelration to reallistic worked! Thank you!
22:53:12 <Chris_Booth> your train will not slow in turns so much now
22:53:43 <glx> but it will slow down on slopes :)
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23:00:05 <Chris_Booth> anyone know any nice cargodest servers?
23:02:54 *** Cardiz_ has joined #openttd
23:04:44 <Cardiz_> Well yeah glx, you're right.
23:04:55 <Cardiz_> The train slows down on >2 tiles slope.
23:05:10 <Cardiz_> But there are rarely any >2 tiles slopes in game.
23:05:17 <glx> but it's still better than slow down in turns
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23:13:37 <Chris_Booth> you can always add more locos to stop slowing
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