IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-10
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00:01:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23468 /trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp: -Feature [FS#4827]: when looking for missing content, automatically select it so you can easily start the download
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00:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> if we have "open in browser" link support, the download window could offer a "search on grfcodec for <GRFID>" link
00:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause> for missing content
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00:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> same 4-letter prefix :p
00:29:15 <michi_cc> Anybody in here with a real Win95/98 install?
00:29:28 <Yexo> a grfcrawler api so the game could check if any grf matches the grfid, and if so provide a link to the grfcrawler page would be even better
00:32:05 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Just dig up my task on FS where I've collected cross-platform methods to obtain a browser hopefully liked by the user. :-)
00:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: what's different than just providing a link to the search page, with the grfid filled in?
00:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: that wasn't the point.
00:33:22 <Yexo> not much, but the game could provide a clue that you won't find anything there
00:33:40 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Temporary Offline
00:37:51 <Yexo> let's see if I can finish my open_url patch
00:39:50 <Zuu> I think it would be awsome if this can finaly be added where as for sure it is not possible to guarantee it to work in all corner cases, it will probably work forthe majority and the rest could possible set a config in openttd.cfg to make it work.
00:40:15 <Yexo> my current idea is to simply not care about the rest
00:40:56 <Zuu> If the rest are Linux people and you go with XdgUtils, they can just try to obtain XdgUtils. :-)
00:56:53 <welshdragon> off topic question: anyone able to help me with python?
00:57:05 <Yexo> not if you don't ask what your problem with it is
00:58:55 <welshdragon> it says that on line 12 'str' object is not callable
01:00:13 <Pinkbeast> Does it produce any output? What if you remove line 12? Have you got the crack-brained indentation thing wrong?
01:00:31 <Pinkbeast> remove line 12> and the corresponding comma obviously
01:00:51 <Pinkbeast> Oh, line 12; no % between "formatter" and (
01:01:05 <Pinkbeast> ... I'm not a Python programmer so for all I know that's right but it looks like it might be wrong
01:01:40 <welshdragon> line 8 is missing an %
01:01:50 <Pinkbeast> Oh, I meant line 8, didn't I?
01:02:37 <welshdragon> thanks Pinkbeast, dunno why I'm learning to code at gone 1 am
01:02:58 <Pinkbeast> That is when most code is written :-)
01:03:21 <Zuu> at 2 am you start to wonder if it isn't time to go to bed. :-)
01:03:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and then you continue anyway until 4 or 5 :p
01:05:07 <welshdragon> no no, I'm going to bed soon
01:06:55 <welshdragon> still, eventually I should be able to start coding for OTTD
01:07:24 <Yexo> it adds a "view website" button in the online content window
01:10:33 <Yexo> also I'm far from sure fork/execv is the best solution here
01:49:55 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23469 /trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp: -Fix (r23468): gcc warning about initialization order
01:56:37 <Zuu> Yexo: would maybe OpenBrowser need more protection against someone trying to execute remote commands by crafting an URL?
01:57:08 <Yexo> I think (but am not 100% sure) that the current implementation is safe
01:58:09 <Zuu> I see, you found a way to explicitly specify your arguments as an array for Linux and not just compose a string that is executed.
01:58:25 <Yexo> yes, that's why I use execv and not system
01:58:54 <Yexo> but I'm on windows right now, so I haven't even compiled that code
04:04:00 <Lachie> hmmm, maybe NFO was easier after all.
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07:13:03 <Lachie> just a question for anybody who knows (trying it anyway), can the additional text callback be used more than once?
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07:14:05 <planetmaker> in what way 'more than once'?
07:14:48 <planetmaker> generally you can only return one string. But you can use multi-line strings. Or strings which take parameters which in turn again are strings
07:15:53 <Lachie> say I'm using the additional text to tell the players the nomenclature of a locomotive as well as its usage. So I have a string that says "Class Name: X-Class" and one that says "Usage: Heavy Freight" or something like that
07:15:59 <planetmaker> and I need something salty...
07:16:12 <planetmaker> for breakfast? Hm...
07:16:14 <Lachie> perhaps some hollandaise sauce?
07:16:36 <planetmaker> sounds more like it :-)
07:21:24 <planetmaker> wrt to your strings: easiest is of course a separate string by engine. It's specific anyway
07:35:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Lachie: in CETS we do something like "Track Type: {STRING}, Usage {STRING}" and then push the appropriate strings onto the stack during the callback
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08:31:16 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23470 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move declaration of SwitchToMode to a header instead of declaring it in 6 other files
08:49:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23471 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move the error related code out of misc_gui.cpp into error_gui.cpp
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09:23:11 <Lachie> excellent. can now do tenders. I am rad.
09:25:23 <Lachie> well, not really. still doing it the old way, but, eh.
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09:54:29 <Wolf01> lol I noticed two more zoom levels.. after zooming from the min zoom I said wtfhappened!?!?!
09:54:50 <Wolf01> (I have a mouse wheel without ticks)
09:57:16 <Terkhen> Wolf01: in case you find something too big or too small, you can set the allowed zoom out / zoom in at advanced settings
09:57:39 <Wolf01> yes, I disabled the x4
10:09:03 <peter1138> Wolf01, you're welcome :p
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11:12:56 <SpComb> although, it's a slightly different kind of weight topology that they're really talking about
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11:31:45 <Zuu> If I edit an old banans upload which depend on old content, will it lose that dependency?
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11:32:58 <Zuu> Eg. I have found out that CluelessPlus doesn't work on 1.0 since version 28 and would like to update Bananas with that, but then I fear it will lose track of which SuperLib version the AI depend on.
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12:59:13 <Ammler> TrueBrain: did you link the yogscast and I just miss it in your post?
12:59:49 <Ammler> ah on the openttd frontpage :-)
13:05:02 <Ammler> seriously, that video made that rise on traffic?
13:05:26 <Ammler> I guess, I am not able to watch it...
13:06:10 <Ammler> planetmaker: what baseset does he use?
13:07:20 <planetmaker> but why can't you watch them? It's youtube
13:09:19 <Ammler> well, the start was quite annoying
13:09:37 <Ammler> not a technical issue, more the people :-)
13:11:41 <planetmaker> Ammler: it's imho a quite good example of how people start. Who have not yet played the game really
13:11:52 <planetmaker> alone that is quite valuable info :-9
13:12:06 <Alberth> Ammler: as for OpenTTD playing technics, you won't learn anything :)
13:12:32 <planetmaker> indeed. There's nothing to learn from the videos concerning building
13:12:34 <Ammler> well, I wonder, why that is so famous
13:12:47 <planetmaker> It's obviously a very popular gaming site.
13:12:54 <planetmaker> I never heart of it before, but yeah
13:13:02 <Alberth> but as pm says, it shows how people discover how the game works
13:13:51 <peter1138> yogscast have a big following in the minecraft world, i think
13:13:56 <Ammler> it looks like he knew ttd before
13:16:07 <Alberth> I seem to remember hearing "I played with it for a couple of hours" in the video
13:20:48 <Ammler> I already heard the word "unrealistic" :-)
13:21:41 <Alberth> you mean trains don't stay level when they climb a mountain???? :O
13:22:54 * andythenorth needs to draw a station building
13:23:11 <planetmaker> you need to draw a fish farm :-P
13:23:27 <andythenorth> I need to draw [stuff]
13:23:38 <andythenorth> for i in stuff: draw(i)
13:24:05 <Alberth> for i in stuff: andy.draw(i) ?
13:24:12 <planetmaker> yeah... sounds like Zephyris building generator
13:24:16 <planetmaker> it works similar ;-)
13:28:46 <andythenorth> time for a new CHIPS release?
13:29:04 <planetmaker> rather Braunkohl and Bregenwurst :-P
13:29:20 * Alberth studies the crystal ball
13:29:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23472 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp gfx_func.h strings.cpp): -Fix [FS#4877]: the monospace font broke the bootstrap GUI's ability to find a font
13:29:47 <Alberth> nope, no conclusive anser, I am afraid you have to decide yourself :)
13:29:54 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23473 /trunk/src/error_gui.cpp: -Codechange: refactor the error message data into a separate structure
13:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> why is the Braunkohl called Grünkohl? (and vice versa)
13:30:25 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: it's a different species of cabage
13:30:31 <planetmaker> it's similar but not the same
13:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but Rotkohl and Blaukraut is actually the same :)
13:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> with different pH values :)
13:32:36 <planetmaker> but of course it its also quite well that in Braunschweig preferentially Braunkohl is offered
13:33:02 * andythenorth ponders how to set min compatible version for CHIPS
13:33:12 <andythenorth> compatible with 0.5, not 0.4
13:33:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "Der Rotkohl ändert seine Farbe je nach pH-Wert des Bodens."
13:36:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: what was wrong with the clay tiles?
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13:37:08 <andythenorth> they were made redundant by the 'quarry' tile
13:37:26 <planetmaker> thus better multi-purpose tiles :-)
13:37:30 <andythenorth> they were disabled in 0.5 so they could be removed later ;)
13:37:51 <andythenorth> that might still cause savegame explosion
13:38:04 <andythenorth> if they were already built in a game that used 0.4, then 0.5...
13:38:15 * andythenorth is drawing fruits
13:38:29 <andythenorth> if anyone knows how to better handle the tile deprecation, feel free :)
13:38:44 <andythenorth> there were notes in the ticket
13:38:59 <andythenorth> I might have overlooked them :o
13:40:23 <planetmaker> thus min compatible version is the current version
13:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so station tiles need a way to hide them like vehicles?
13:41:13 * andythenorth doesn't want to repeat 'the great ISR 0.8.x savegame slaughter'
13:41:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there's a cb to hide them in the menu...
13:41:23 <andythenorth> hide / disable /s
13:41:27 <andythenorth> that's all though
13:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> disable is not hide
13:41:37 <andythenorth> once built, there's no way back
13:42:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "disable" means "it's in the menu, but greyed out"
13:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "hide" means "it's not in the menu"
13:45:07 <andythenorth> which is fine - but there's no way to safely remove a tile ID from a station set once it's been used in a game
13:45:34 <planetmaker> as written in the issue: re-define it
13:45:45 <planetmaker> Just keep the track status
13:45:47 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly... you can't remove it. you need to hide it
13:48:05 * andythenorth needs to do some archeology
13:48:15 <andythenorth> possibly I already reused the IDs, possibly not
13:48:24 <andythenorth> but meanwhile....fruits :P
13:51:52 <andythenorth> can the newgrf debug show the cargo labels and classes used for a cargo?
13:52:02 <andythenorth> from the cargo payment graph perhaps?
13:54:13 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23474 /trunk/ (37 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: move the declaration error related functions to error.h
13:58:54 <andythenorth> the truck roadstop uses graphics for metal cans
13:59:01 <andythenorth> are those legitimately GPL?
13:59:13 <andythenorth> no reason to think they're not...
13:59:18 <andythenorth> might borrow them for CHIPS
14:04:05 <andythenorth> also...any (easy) requests for CHIPS?
14:04:08 <andythenorth> next version will be soon
14:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't tried it yet
14:09:10 <Elukka> can't think of any suggestions, though
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14:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> /* reserve extra space in savegame here. (currently 30 bytes) */ <-- what's that for?
14:25:52 <planetmaker> hysterical raisins
14:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so why not remove this?
14:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. exchanging SL_MAX_VERSION with whatever the current SAVEGAME_VERSION is
14:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause> 166 or something
14:30:19 <Rubidium> it's lovely to misuse those in stable releases ;)
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14:39:35 <frosch123> removing those bytes is like removing copy constructors :p
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15:14:12 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23475 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: queue critical error messages, so when multiple happen you won't miss any
15:17:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23476 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: use the error queue to replace switch mode error strings, again making it possible to return multiple errors
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15:41:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23477 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4878] (r23300): like r23342, but now for the user interface ;)
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16:04:33 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23478 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp strings_func.h): -Codechange: add a method to copy string parameters *and* its raw strings
16:04:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23479 /trunk/src/error_gui.cpp: -Codechange: keep a copy of raw strings from the parameters of the error messages
16:05:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23480 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#4594]: replace OS error messages with internal error messages when that's possible
16:30:23 <peter1138> rigs of rods' network mode is fairly useless :(
16:34:44 <peter1138> there it goes, it crashed :p
16:54:43 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23481 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 5 dirs): -Add: Function to get the CPU core count.
16:54:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23482 /trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp: -Change: [Win32] Move re-painting the window and doing palette animation into a separate thread.
17:03:52 <__ln__> what's the opposite of a Zug?
17:04:49 <planetmaker> that's a strange question, __ln__.
17:05:01 <planetmaker> But it might Druck
17:05:50 <planetmaker> as there's tensile strength (Zugspannung) and compressional strength (Kompressionsfestigkeit)
17:06:05 <planetmaker> s/Zugspannung/Zugfestigkeit/g
17:06:32 <__ln__> a strange question, yes. :)
17:06:58 <valhallasw> what's the context? :-)
17:07:37 <__ln__> i was thinking what to call those trains that are being *pushed* rather than pulled by an engine.
17:08:27 <__ln__> i suppose such a term is not really used?
17:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: not really...
17:08:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's always a Zug, even if it's pushed
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17:49:37 <andythenorth> what cargo graphics for Alcohol?
17:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Crates, Barrels, ...?
17:50:54 <andythenorth> both is possible
17:51:54 <andythenorth> should I provide livestock graphics in CHIPS?
17:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> some station sets have cow/sheep/other graphics
17:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but if you put it into a closed truck, there's not much to show
17:59:40 <andythenorth> I have animal sprites from FIRS
18:00:47 <planetmaker> would be nice, if they'd match
18:01:04 <planetmaker> could be kinda simple c&p action into the layouts
18:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> my researches seem to indicate that smaller animals (chicken, geese, goats, sheep) are typically transported in closed wagons, while large animals (cows) were also transported in open wagons
18:01:22 <planetmaker> well... as far as it's simple to copy from nml industries to nfo stations
18:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> about how they're kept at stations is more difficult to research
18:02:33 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: how about pigs?
18:02:48 <planetmaker> just let them graze
18:03:06 <planetmaker> it's ecological correct shipping ;-)
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18:31:49 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
18:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause> am i getting old and grumpy, just because i'm tired of "i can't host a server" posts?
18:47:14 <Alberth> getting 'old' is not caused by reading forum posts afaik
18:47:35 <planetmaker> Everytime I read a posting there, I'm older again! ;-)
18:48:01 <Alberth> did you do a double blind experiment on that?
18:48:24 <Rubidium> the biggest annoyance is that 99% of the times it's them not having configured the network right
18:48:45 <Rubidium> then there's I'd say a 0.7% chance the masterserver is 'down'
18:48:55 <Rubidium> and a 0.3% chance anything is really wrong with OpenTTD
18:50:44 <Zuu> And when they got the sever online, they want to begin with hosting something like Luukland servers.
18:51:19 <planetmaker> then they're out of luck, dude :-P
18:51:20 <Zuu> Eg. something that requires work by the host to get set up, but that they expect to just download.
18:51:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23483 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
18:51:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:51:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 14 changes by arnau
18:51:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: czech - 8 changes by ReisRyos
18:51:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: english_US - 13 changes by Rubidium
18:51:46 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 13 changes by jpx_
18:51:46 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 13 changes by glx
18:54:24 * andythenorth considers using tiny url in readme
18:54:38 <Rubidium> andythenorth: don't ;)
18:57:40 <Rubidium> I don't trust tiny urls
18:57:47 <andythenorth> we should run our own
18:57:48 <Rubidium> there's no way to see where you'll end up
18:58:24 <Zuu> In what context is STR_CONFIG_ERROR_INVALID_GRF_SYSTEM used? I can't find it in a newly updated copy of trunk.
18:58:42 <andythenorth> also, now we have a font, can I word wrap in readme? Or still a bad idea?
18:58:51 <Rubidium> Zuu: check settings.cpp
18:59:16 <Zuu> Which needs compilation to be created right?
19:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's settings.h
19:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause> which is generated from settings.ini
19:08:24 <Zuu> Hmm, any reason why "{WHITE}Error with the configuration file..." doesn't say that there is an error in the config file? Eg. can that message appear also when there is not an error in the config file?
19:12:50 <Rubidium> all the strings added today have to do with brokeness found when loading the config file
19:13:27 <Rubidium> and I don't see how saying something is wrong with the configuration file can mean that something is wrong with something completely else
19:14:28 <Zuu> If I in the translation write that there is an error in the config file, then I'm more blaming the config file that the English original text.
19:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> so you want an explanation for the tiny sematical difference between "with" and "in"?
19:15:43 <Zuu> well, I was wondering if going for "in" would not hurt to do.
19:15:50 <Rubidium> well, in one case the config file could have been right but broken by changing a NewGRF
19:16:17 <Rubidium> so then the question is whether there is something wrong in the config file
19:16:44 <Rubidium> though there's something wrong with the configuration
19:17:06 <Zuu> I think I'll go with "with" and then have to use "problem" instead of "error" because "error" and "with" doesn't mix well in swedish.
19:18:23 <Rubidium> the art of translation is to create a string that is understood in the same way as the english string, not one that is a word-by-word translation, or that translating it back to English would yield the exact same string
19:18:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: what was your testcase for autoreplace with subtypes?
19:20:08 <andythenorth> it's possible I've got stupidities with my lead vehicle
19:20:27 <andythenorth> but I had to fix all that recently to placate ottd error messages, so I think/hope not
19:20:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23484 /trunk/src/ (depot_gui.cpp order_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#4770]: in case you already have orders, ignore the vehicles when adding an extra order
19:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> my last problem with subtypes was that they weren't copied on clonung
19:21:38 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the "realistic" liveries of GermanRV
19:23:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'll test in a bit
19:25:29 <frosch123> also test autorefit if you can :)
19:28:35 <frosch123> do the trams support autorefit?
19:28:39 <frosch123> and if, which cargos?
19:31:02 <andythenorth> I enabled autorefit flag for all trams recently
19:31:06 <andythenorth> but it doesn't appear to work
19:36:14 <frosch123> ah, i see, autorefit has trouble with articulated parts
19:37:53 * andythenorth suggests rv-wagons :P
19:38:00 <andythenorth> as a way to not solve that problem :P
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19:51:11 <frosch123> haha, autorefit allows to select the subtype. so if i select a subtype with different vehicle lengths i get the "newgrf is causing trouble" error :p
19:52:04 <frosch123> oh, and it even causes trouble :/
19:53:06 <frosch123> you can crash ottd just by setting up unfortunate autorefit orders :p
19:53:31 <frosch123> send a tram to a roadstop and let it autorefit to a different length
19:54:06 <frosch123> then it crashes because the roadstop is suddenly occupied by a longer vehicle, which makes the quantum effects assert :)
19:54:34 <frosch123> solution: the grf must disallow autorefit to different length
19:54:47 <frosch123> so, the popup is actually right \o/
19:54:56 <Rubidium> even worse, it messes with the accounting of how full the road stop is, so all vehicle spreading over the road stop will be broken
19:55:08 <frosch123> Rubidium: yes, that part asserts
19:55:20 <frosch123> src/roadstop.cpp:283: void RoadStop::Entry::Leave(const RoadVehicle*): Assertion `this->occupied >= 0' failed
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19:55:36 <frosch123> the roadstop is left by a longer vehicle than it was entered :)
19:55:44 <planetmaker> wb andythenorth :-)
19:55:55 <planetmaker> I've appetite for CHIPS meanwhile ;-)
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20:06:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: that smells to me like refits that change length are evil :P
20:06:44 <andythenorth> but the spec allows that
20:06:48 <andythenorth> what to do what to do
20:07:02 <andythenorth> planetmaker: wrt chips, I'm about to tag :)
20:07:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: implement the refit callback, and disallow autorefit to different length
20:07:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: agreed
20:07:38 <andythenorth> generally it is very hard to make a valid grf that will crash ottd
20:07:43 <frosch123> autorefit-on-demand picks the right subtype btw
20:08:01 <andythenorth> in this case it appears to be trivial to make a grf that is both valid, and that will crash ottd
20:08:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: ottd does displays an error message and pauses the game
20:08:09 <frosch123> it only crashes on unpause
20:08:26 <frosch123> so, it blames the grf that it might crash :p
20:08:35 <andythenorth> but the grf complies with the spec...
20:08:59 <andythenorth> disallow autorefit when cb36 is used
20:09:01 <frosch123> pff, don't argue that the specs are not detailed enough
20:09:49 <andythenorth> the specs are not detailed enough
20:10:49 <frosch123> the callback result may change only when whole vehicle chain is inside a depot
20:11:24 <frosch123> and that does also hold for grfv8 :p
20:11:27 <andythenorth> does that hold for cb36 as well?
20:11:32 <frosch123> we need to copy that to cb36
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20:12:02 <andythenorth> once I close current bugs, next version after that will be grf v8
20:12:08 <andythenorth> there's quite a bit to change
20:13:37 <planetmaker> frosch123: it's new that the CB changing outside the depot stops the game
20:14:39 <frosch123> changing length of trains when outside the depot might make them fall of the track when reversing
20:14:56 <frosch123> changing length of rv crashes when they change length inside a roadstop
20:15:14 <frosch123> i.e. esp. easy to trigger with autorefit
20:16:46 <andythenorth> why is it possible to use cb36 to change length outside of depot then?
20:16:52 <andythenorth> there can't be a valid case for it
20:17:10 <andythenorth> I guess it's not possible if ottd traps it
20:21:30 <andythenorth> another bug for HEQS in that case :P
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20:59:02 <frosch123> hmm, should gs be allowed to start new companies? like non-player characters? :p
21:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. start the player's company in the scenario-preparing phase
21:00:02 <frosch123> can it choose which ai to attach? including itself?
21:00:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no, only the pre-configured AI slots
21:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (which may be predefined in the scenario)
21:00:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23485 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix: Autorefit failed if the first part of an articulated vehicle did not carry any cargo.
21:03:20 <andythenorth> "just" give gs access to every gui control
21:03:27 <andythenorth> then it can do what it likes :)
21:04:25 *** Torrasque has joined #openttd
21:07:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23486 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r22764): 3 for the price of 1: fix up ScriptTile::GetTownAuthority() (tnx to Torrasque for reporting)
21:09:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23487 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Change/Fix: Make autoreplace, autorenew, cloning and autorefit check all articulated parts of a vehicle to find a shared cargo subtype.
21:14:18 <frosch123> wow... if you check all your checkouts from time to time, it is amazing how much of it you can just trash :p
21:15:11 <planetmaker> you mean patches having become obsolete or thoroughly outdated?
21:15:36 <frosch123> yeah, either already rewritten and even committed, or fixed otherwise
21:15:52 <peter1138> some of mine never see the light of day
21:15:55 <peter1138> like say roadtypes...
21:19:12 <Rubidium> yeah, I can remove the yaim checkout ;)
21:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there once a limit of like 32?
21:24:13 <peter1138> 32 open files i think
21:24:20 <frosch123> i downloaded all content from bananas, but i cannot activate all of them :(
21:24:36 <peter1138> subtract the required grfs and it was more like 27?
21:24:41 <frosch123> i can even only pick a single heightmap or scenario at once :(
21:24:53 <peter1138> frosch123, sickening
21:25:02 * planetmaker gives a condolences cookie to frosch
21:26:04 * andythenorth has about 290 newgrfs :(
21:26:19 <peter1138> not all active though
21:27:11 <planetmaker> I cleaned up (moved old folders) when the directories were renamed
21:27:19 <planetmaker> I guess I'm at ~500 already again
21:27:21 <Rubidium> come back when the number has at least 4 digits before the comma
21:29:05 <frosch123> we should add the hg repo into action14, so ottd can checkout the right revision and compile it
21:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have digits after the comma, you're probably in trouble :p
21:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> or in britain :)
21:32:30 <andythenorth> it's not called a decimal *point* for nothing :P
21:32:45 <andythenorth> nor comma thousands
21:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's a decimal comma.
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21:39:33 <andrew2> i need a bit of help.
21:39:46 <andrew2> i can not join any multiplayer game over the internet.
21:39:54 <andrew2> find server button does nothing at all.
21:40:02 <andrew2> and the connection is set to internet.
21:40:05 <frosch123> check your firewall then
21:40:20 <DorpsGek> michi_cc: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
21:40:22 <frosch123> and allow ottd to connect to the internet
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21:40:27 <andrew2> i have windooze firewall disabled, and in router settings i em in DMZ.
21:40:52 <frosch123> can you use the online content?
21:40:52 <andrew2> allso i can join the last server i visited.
21:41:14 <planetmaker> did you press 'search for servers'?
21:41:53 <frosch123> so for some reason the stuff from the masterserver does not reach your side, or your side does not reach the masterserver
21:42:19 <frosch123> i think it uses udp for that
21:42:40 <andrew2> i do not know, i can download newgrf files and other things from the online content section.
21:43:15 <andrew2> i can even jin the last visited server too.
21:43:26 <andrew2> but find server button does nothing.
21:43:32 <andrew2> no new server gets listed.
21:43:49 <michi_cc> online content and actually joining a server uses TCP, but the find server function uses UDP.
21:44:29 <michi_cc> So your route/firewall/something else seems to block UDP packets.
21:44:30 <andrew2> so the solution would be ?
21:45:17 <andrew2> but my computer has ip addres 192.168.1.100 as ip. (i did check, ipconfig) and in router settings i em set to DMZ host.
21:45:27 <andrew2> supposedly anything can reach me.
21:45:58 <planetmaker> 192.168.x.y is a private address
21:46:08 <planetmaker> for local networks only
21:46:12 <andrew2> correct. that is what my computer gets from the router.
21:46:25 <planetmaker> doesn't mean it works reverse
21:46:29 <andrew2> and my windows firewall had been disabled too.
21:46:45 <planetmaker> and the router's FW for incoming connections?
21:47:21 <Rubidium> I'm getting servers listed like it should be done
21:47:27 <andythenorth> frosch123: auto-replace works for me :)
21:47:55 <Rubidium> so given you said that the content downloading works the connection to the main server is okay as well
21:48:00 <andrew2> i ahve not touched any router settings, and ottd was working properly few days ago.
21:48:25 <Rubidium> you also said you can join another server, I'm assuming from in-game, so udp over port 3979 works as well
21:48:42 <Rubidium> which leaves udp over port 3978 being blocked somewhere 'near' you
21:49:27 <andrew2> is there any tool i could use to test if i can ping this port ?
21:49:34 <Rubidium> too bad it's rarely ever possible to see what the router sends/receives over the internet connected port
21:49:55 <andrew2> to see if it is blocked or not.
21:50:54 <Rubidium> I'm not aware of such tools (via a website)
21:51:17 <andrew2> it can be any kind of tool, does not need to be a website.
21:51:26 <Rubidium> I think nmap can do it
21:52:54 <Rubidium> but you need to do that from a remote host as checking the remote side config of your router from the internal network is in 99% of the cases impossible (routers rarely route traffic back into the local network via the external network)
21:53:19 <andrew2> okay, what if i give you my WAN side ip ? can you ping me ?
21:53:50 <planetmaker> ping would be another port...
21:56:17 <andrew2> can this be used to check if the port is accepting communication ?
21:57:17 <Rubidium> that uses TCP, so no
21:57:41 <andrew2> so basicly there is no way to check if it is blocked or not ?
21:57:49 <Rubidium> it's saying that it can't determine whether it's opened or not
21:58:40 <Rubidium> but if OpenTTD isn't running and hasn't opened those ports that's not that odd
21:59:14 <andrew2> but i have ottd running.
22:00:05 <Rubidium> trying searching and refreshing the server that is in your server list
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22:00:31 <andrew2> refreshing a server's status works.
22:00:44 <andrew2> current date did get updated.
22:00:52 <andrew2> find server button did not do anything.
22:00:59 <andrew2> connection was set to intenet.
22:01:05 <Rubidium> it's using a random port to connect from
22:01:24 <Rubidium> and receives data on
22:04:55 *** andrew3 has joined #openttd
22:05:09 <andrew3> so i reset my connection.
22:05:39 <peter1138> "luukland trainset ginger cool"
22:05:59 <peter1138> Luukland Trainset 1.3, Graphics and new trains by Michal Blunck
22:06:18 <Rubidium> andrew3: the only thing that is left to do is trace the packets as they are sent over the network (including the external port of the router)
22:06:32 <Rubidium> then you can see if something goes out or comes back at all
22:06:47 <andrew3> and can youhelp me to carry this out ?
22:07:34 <Rubidium> sadly enough not really
22:09:33 <andrew3> lets see.. probably all advertised servers are listed somewhere, probably thats where i em unable to connect.
22:09:46 <andrew3> do you know the ip addres of that server ?
22:09:56 <andrew3> i could possibly try to ping that first.
22:10:24 <andrew3> as i can join an interet game, i would assume that part is okay, only the server list does not get here.
22:12:07 <Rubidium> andrew3: master.openttd.org
22:12:17 <Rubidium> however, it's the same server as the content server
22:12:33 <Rubidium> so if you can reach the content server, you can reach the server with the game list as well
22:12:59 <andrew3> strange, as i can reach the content server, and even download.
22:13:10 <andrew3> that updates, and i did try, and i was able to download too.
22:14:00 <andrew3> yep, i did it again. i downloaded some AI.
22:17:09 <peter1138> hmm, "CHIPS tiles" appears to rename the default class.
22:17:40 <peter1138> might be i have too many stations loaded :p
22:18:18 <peter1138> shouldn't be renamed then. hmm.
22:18:25 <peter1138> we just increase the class limit
22:18:32 <peter1138> i know why the limit is 32
22:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure it's map bits :p
22:19:52 <glx> andrew3: so somehow UPD packets sent by master server are drop somewhere between your computer and master server
22:21:04 <michi_cc> peter1138: Max number of dropdown items or something equally silly? :)
22:21:10 <peter1138> michi_cc, exactly tha t:)
22:21:27 <Eddi|zuHause> actually that was 2nd on my list :)
22:21:28 <andrew3> can happen, but does not the online content system uses UDP to list available content ?
22:22:05 <andrew3> i was thinking TCP was used for downloading only.
22:23:08 <andrew3> any reason why would UDP packets from master server get dropped ?
22:23:18 <andrew3> i have no firewall, nor anything else active.
22:24:09 <glx> could be your ISP, or your router (some are silly ones)
22:24:11 <michi_cc> There are a lot of routers with somewhat broken UDP implementations out there, you just might be unlucky.
22:25:10 <andrew3> but it did work a few days before, and nothing have changed, expect ottd does not list servers.
22:26:21 <glx> ISP is still a valid candidate :)
22:27:14 <glx> they often think internet is only http on port 80
22:27:59 <andrew3> 3979 works, and is UDP, as i can join a server, and play ottd online on that single server.
22:28:24 <glx> when you join a server you use TCP
22:30:03 <andrew3> by any chanse, can it be my brother doing some torrent downloading be the reason ?
22:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> only if it's really choking the connection
22:34:16 <glx> possible if he doesn't limit upload
22:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> try limiting upload and download to something around 80% of your bandwidth
22:34:53 <andrew3> hmmm.. i kindof see..but my connection is still fast, so i do not think so. i will unplugg his cable for a short time.
22:34:59 <andrew3> will see the reaction.
22:37:37 <andrew3> well, it did not help, but i alllmost got killed.
22:37:58 <andrew3> but cleverly i lockt my door prior unplugging the cable.
22:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that's pretty much the expected result then :)
22:38:49 <andrew3> yup, 100% confident only my cable remained plugged in.
22:41:17 <andrew3> when the master server sends the info, it sends it to my ip addres, UDP port 3979 ?
22:43:31 <Rubidium> andrew3: no, it sends it to the port that sent it to the masterserver
22:43:37 <Rubidium> which is randomly allocated by the Os
22:43:55 <michi_cc> No, your computer allocates a random source port and sends a UDP packet to the master server at 3978. In between, your router rewrites the random source port into some other random source port to track NAT connections. The master server then sends a reply to your public IP from 3978 to the rewritten port which your router hopefully turns back into the source port and forwards the packet to you.
22:45:03 <michi_cc> Peer-to-peer networking protocols often open lots of UDP connections which means that it is easy to full up that port translation table. Some routers don't properly clear that table until you reboot the router.
22:45:18 <andrew3> okay. that is very helpfull.
22:45:44 <andrew3> keeping in mind that my brother uses utorrent least 25 to 30 hours a day that may be the issue.
22:45:50 <andrew3> will reboot the router now.
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22:47:08 <andrew2> well, it allso did not help-
22:47:35 <andrew2> one very last thing i can try is to reset the router to full factory deafult.
22:48:05 <andrew2> allso i will try to enable the windoooze firewall and see if it warns me for ottd attempting to open a port.
22:50:46 <andrew2> intresting, windooze did not cry about ottd.
22:53:55 <andrew> well, factory defaults did not work.
22:54:05 <andrew> still no servers listed.
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23:33:48 <frosch123> hmm, 3 weeks of grfcrawler left?
23:36:00 <frosch123> it was announced that it will be shut down till the end of the year
23:36:30 <frosch123> at least i did not heard anything about the shutdown being canceled
23:53:23 <Yexo> <andrew3> keeping in mind that my brother uses utorrent least 25 to 30 hours a day that may be the issue. <- he has interesting days
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