IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-11
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03:20:18 <Ardonel> evening all
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07:11:04 <Rubidium> good morning
07:28:05 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23488 /trunk/src/video/allegro_v.cpp: -Fix [FS#4879] (r23241): artefacts when right click mouse moving with the allegro video driver
07:46:34 <planetmaker> moin
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08:22:31 <andythenorth> morning
08:24:31 <andythenorth> it might be interesting if bananas knew (anonymously) whether a download was an upgrade of a previously downloaded grf, or a new download
08:25:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: where does that make a difference?
08:25:46 <andythenorth> stat porn
08:25:55 <planetmaker> ah. yes
08:26:04 <andythenorth> I'm not actually sure what we'd conclude from it
08:26:11 <andythenorth> but then...we don't have the data :P
08:28:02 * andythenorth has data that proves HEQS has bugs
08:32:42 <planetmaker> does "it's software" suffice as evidence?
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08:49:01 <Terkhen> good morning
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08:49:38 <b_jonas> planetmaker: yes
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08:50:31 <Ruger> !password
08:57:09 <planetmaker> oh, you're so lucky, Ruger
08:59:00 <planetmaker> Ruger: the command suitable for the #openttdcoop public server usually warrant a kick when the right people are here ;-)
08:59:40 <Jocke> Good thing the right people isnt here then ^^
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09:58:44 <Wolf01> hello
09:59:37 <Lachie> hai hai
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10:10:32 <sponge> Hi guys. I made a sort switch that will force trains longer than a certain size to take a side track, is there a way to do the same for trains shorter than a certain size?
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10:13:54 <planetmaker> sponge: it's the same problem. Just re-define 'side track'
10:14:12 <sponge> planetmaker: ?
10:14:30 <planetmaker> if you can sort out trains longer than X, then you can do arbitrary size separation
10:15:17 <sponge> there occurs a problem if there's a blockage on tht side trakc
10:15:24 <planetmaker> sort out lenght X+1 to one side track. Then sort out correct trains by allowing only trains longer than X-1
10:15:46 <sponge> how can I allow trains longer than X-1 ?
10:15:52 <sponge> only
10:16:06 <planetmaker> ..."I made a sort switch that will force trains longer than a certain size to take a side track"
10:16:18 <sponge> that doesnt prevent the shorter ones from taking it
10:16:26 <planetmaker> just force all trains on the "side track" and sort them on the main track
10:16:56 <sponge> but i cant prevent the shorter ones from taking the same route as the long ones
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10:36:28 <blergh> hi there!
10:37:09 <blergh> i was wondering if the screenshot on contain any extra set of graphics or not?
10:37:18 <blergh> the buildings seem more futuristic
10:37:30 <blergh>
10:37:33 <blergh> that one in particular
10:37:40 <planetmaker> that's the total town replacement set in use
10:37:46 <planetmaker> in the years > 2020 or so
10:37:59 <blergh> alright, can i find it in the forums?
10:38:18 <planetmaker> use online content
10:38:43 <blergh> I dont follow, sorry
10:38:45 <planetmaker> via ingame download
10:38:45 <blergh> im new to most of this
10:39:17 <blergh> think ive got it now
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10:39:49 <planetmaker> there's only few good reasons to install newgrfs manually. Most players won't have that need
10:40:13 <blergh> btw
10:40:17 <blergh> how many are you on the dev team
10:40:29 <planetmaker> look at the contacts page ;-)
10:40:30 <blergh> this game is so awesome it seems like it can still get better
10:40:38 <blergh> i think what ur doing is great
10:40:44 <planetmaker> I hope it can still get better ;-)
10:41:00 <planetmaker> a dozen people with more or less frequent contributions is a rough number
10:41:15 <planetmaker> that doesn't count any graphics development, though
10:41:19 <planetmaker> that comes all extra
10:42:52 <blergh> alright
10:43:03 <blergh> anyway, thanks a lot :)
10:43:03 <planetmaker> and of course: the game is open-source. Anyone can submit patches and additions which we'll happily review
10:43:39 <blergh> haha if only i were a little more techsavvy
10:44:39 <planetmaker> drawing graphics doesn't require being a tech savvy
10:45:37 <planetmaker> or composing music or sounds actually
10:45:42 <appe> morning, people :)
10:45:59 <planetmaker> hi appe
10:47:37 <appe> planetmaker: whats up
10:47:46 <planetmaker> the roof
10:48:14 <appe> o'rly.
10:48:42 <planetmaker> nope. Just kidding.
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11:04:18 <appe> so, no roof
11:04:27 <appe> must be cold
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11:16:20 <appe> still working on the opentttron-track
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11:37:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23489 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Change: don't wrap around the console history and give an empty line if you click the down-key enough
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11:47:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23490 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 4 dirs): -Add [FS#2750]: OpenBrowser function to open a browser on major OSes
11:54:46 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23491 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Document [FS#4846]: why we're not saving settings when OpenTTD crashes
11:57:53 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23492 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt network/network_content_gui.cpp): -Feature: add 'view website' button to the online content window
12:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> add wiki and homepage buttons to the main window?
12:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and the ? menu
12:04:54 <Yexo> yes, need to think of the best place for that
12:06:41 <planetmaker> imho the main menu needs rework... newgrfs, ai, part of settings, part of options need all go to a separate new game menu
12:08:30 <planetmaker> oh, difficulty, too
12:10:24 <Rubidium> but settings and game options aren't new game only
12:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause> game options i agree, but settings not.
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12:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> potentially split off all GUI (unsaved) options and put them into game options
12:13:03 <planetmaker> Rubidium: Eddi|zuHause, that's why I wrote "part of" for both settings and options
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12:15:22 <Eddi|zuHause> while reviewing settings: additionally to on/off and increase/decrease buttons, there could be dropdown buttons for certain settings
12:16:07 <planetmaker> yes, that would be nice for some.
12:16:17 <planetmaker> would be needed e.g. for townnames
12:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause> townnames would have to move out of the game settings
12:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> as well as driving side
12:20:04 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23493 /trunk/src/error_gui.cpp: -Fix (r23476): clearing errors didn't clear the currently shown critical error
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12:30:37 <planetmaker> you mean options, Eddi|zuHause ?
12:30:47 <planetmaker> yes, they're imho genuine new game settings
12:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
12:31:04 <planetmaker> as are newgrf settings
12:31:07 <planetmaker> and AI
12:31:29 <planetmaker> and all the settings saved in a savegame
12:31:38 <planetmaker> thus NOT the UI, but all else
12:31:59 <planetmaker> well, neither networking, but ;-)
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12:46:01 <planetmaker> but maybe I should follow this gui approach more
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12:49:58 <andythenorth> planetmaker: :)
12:50:29 <andythenorth> next year...
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12:51:46 <planetmaker> maybe
12:53:04 <Yexo> would also reduce the amount of people changing settings in the main menu and expected it to affect their savegame
12:55:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23494 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] action14 node INFO->URL_ to add an url
12:55:29 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23495 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Feature: button in NewGRF window to open URL from action14
12:57:03 <andythenorth> :o
12:57:26 * andythenorth simply can't keep up with new newgrf features :)
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12:58:52 <planetmaker> and who's to blame? Just you, andythenorth! :-P
12:59:00 <planetmaker> always wanting moaaar ;-) :-P
12:59:32 <andythenorth> I need more coders :P
12:59:36 <andythenorth> to fix my bugs
13:03:36 <peter1138> andythenorth andythenorth andythenorth draw some EZ sprites ;)
13:03:43 <Alberth> we're just making sure you don't get bored during the xmas holidays :)
13:03:52 <peter1138> xmas what?
13:04:34 <andythenorth> xmas what?
13:04:38 <andythenorth> I have a baby due any time
13:04:43 <andythenorth> officially in 7 days
13:05:02 <andythenorth> peter1138: I am saving my pixels for drawing road sprites
13:05:18 <peter1138> EZ road sprites!
13:05:48 <Rubidium> 64bpp EZ ;)
13:05:48 <andythenorth> EZ wastes pixels :P
13:05:56 <andythenorth> it's powers of 2 more pixels
13:05:58 <andythenorth> also
13:06:03 <andythenorth> why not just render them?
13:07:07 <peter1138> render from what?
13:07:28 <andythenorth> tubro squid or such?
13:07:32 <andythenorth> RoR?
13:07:36 <andythenorth> dunno
13:07:42 <andythenorth> my CGI days are behind me :P
13:08:08 <peter1138>
13:08:09 <peter1138> :S
13:08:15 <peter1138> the roads aren't bad
13:08:21 <peter1138> could do with less white line though
13:08:25 <peter1138> the grass smells
13:08:31 <peter1138> and the vehicles are too large
13:08:48 <andythenorth> is that diesel smoke over the train?
13:08:51 <andythenorth> or glitches :P
13:09:02 <peter1138> there's a small breeze clearly
13:09:45 <andythenorth> it's a shame the lighting is so ugly
13:09:58 <andythenorth> it's a pity the 32bpp crew didn't set their lighting up correctly
13:10:34 <Rubidium> andythenorth: they haven't decided which lighting setup to use
13:10:50 <planetmaker> nor an approx scale even by the single features
13:10:54 <andythenorth> most of the sprites I've seen are lit with a similar rig afaik
13:10:55 <planetmaker> they haven't defined much
13:11:04 <andythenorth> scale looks ok
13:11:19 <andythenorth> it's an attractive screen shot :)
13:11:26 <andythenorth> but /me is welded to pixels
13:11:42 <andythenorth> there's no challenge to cgi
13:12:07 <andythenorth> find a real vehicle, compress the scale a bit, render
13:12:26 <andythenorth> maybe finding nice textures is hard, but they seem to be doing pretty well so far
13:12:30 <peter1138> heh
13:12:43 <peter1138> and i've always said that 32bpp and ez don't need to be renders ;)
13:12:50 <andythenorth> don't need to be
13:12:53 <andythenorth> might as well be
13:13:11 <andythenorth> if I was doing EZ, I'd render them
13:18:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt model life discussion from other day - why do I need to use the "Retire vehicle early" property?
13:18:53 <andythenorth> I was considering just not setting that prop at all...
13:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: to not fill the buy list with completely outdated vehicles
13:19:16 <andythenorth> if I just set model life, without that prop - same effect?
13:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause> say, a vehicle has a lifetime of 40 years, and 10 years later the next better vehicle becomes available
13:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> then you have for 30 years both vehicles in the list, while only the newer one will be actually bought
13:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so you set vehicle life to 40, and retire early to 30, then it's removed as soon as the next one is available
13:20:47 <andythenorth> and this avoids the randomisation issue?
13:20:54 <andythenorth> [of vehicle life]
13:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or actually, vehicle life to 40, model life to 50, and retire early to 40
13:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> this doesn't avoid any randomisation
13:21:58 <andythenorth> hmm
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13:29:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm probably misreading spec, but I don't see how using retire early prop will affect buy list
13:30:06 <andythenorth> as compared to not using it :)
13:30:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's the _only_ thing it affects.
13:30:40 <andythenorth> I read it as affecting reliability
13:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no
13:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the reliability curve is fixed
13:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well, randomized, but not affectable by newgrf other than by setting model life
13:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth:
13:42:22 <andythenorth> ascii ftw
13:42:38 <andythenorth> so if model life is n
13:42:42 <andythenorth> and retire early is r
13:43:04 <andythenorth> why not just set shorter model life, instead of calculating n-r?
13:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because you'll have brandnew vehicles with low reliability then
13:44:16 <andythenorth> is the length of phase 1 proportional to model life?
13:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> no, 1 and 3 is fixed, 2 is variable
13:47:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth:
13:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> how vehicles with different build dates behave
13:47:35 <andythenorth> ok
13:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the "xx" marks the phase with bad reliability before the end of the vehicle life
13:47:42 <andythenorth> so that's counter-intuitive to players
13:48:20 <andythenorth> so I can do this, but it won't solve your HEQS problem
13:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> rule of thumb: retire early should be roughly the same as vehicle life
13:52:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: typically HEQS has 25 year model life, and new models are introduced after 21 years
13:53:15 <andythenorth> do you know which vehicles are spamming your buy menu?
13:53:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really remember
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13:58:01 <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
13:58:01 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 21 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <frosch123> at least i did not heard anything about the shutdown being canceled
13:58:13 <andythenorth> probably sleeping :P
14:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i _every time_ have to fix the repo after an oberhümer commit?
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14:06:23 <andythenorth> ho
14:06:27 <andythenorth> sounds like working with me :P
14:06:52 <andythenorth> I have so many directories named firs.borked, heq.borked etc
14:07:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if you see the 'too many dump trucks' issue again -
14:07:41 <andythenorth> I'll fix it once I know what the issue is...otherwise it's a bit lucky dip tbh
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14:16:08 <andythenorth> why might auto-refit choose a different subtype?
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14:39:42 <Ruger> <Ruger> !password
14:39:42 <Ruger> <@planetmaker> oh, you're so lucky, Ruger
14:39:42 <Ruger> <@planetmaker> Ruger: the command suitable for the #openttdcoop public server usually warrant a kick when the right people are here ;-)
14:39:47 <Ruger> bit harsh no?
14:39:56 <Ruger> considering it says to do that on your website
14:40:10 <Alberth> at #openttd ?
14:40:47 <Ruger> idd
14:40:52 <Rubidium> where?
14:41:01 <Rubidium> I'd like to see a page that does say that
14:41:07 <Ruger>
14:41:26 <Ruger> First of all, be sure to join our IRC channel (#openttdcoop). You will get information on games and servers. Players find together in the channel and start new or continue existing games. For further connection details, look at the Public Server Page. The password can be found using the command !password in the IRC channel, as the password changes on a regular basis.
14:41:33 <Ruger> ?
14:41:51 <Alberth> this is #openttd, not #openttdcoop
14:41:57 <KenjiE20> ^
14:41:58 <Ruger> oh pish
14:42:27 <Ruger> lol
14:43:15 <Ruger> oh go me, i clicked the wrong irc link and didnt notice :|
14:43:18 * andythenorth can't figure out how to crash ottd
14:43:23 <Ruger> for hours....
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14:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "i have seven airports and can't build more" :p
14:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: alt+0?
14:49:04 <andythenorth> quak
14:49:06 <andythenorth> always
14:49:08 <andythenorth> infallibly
14:49:12 <andythenorth> he arrives when needd
14:49:14 <andythenorth> +e
14:49:29 <andythenorth> frankly a bit spooky
14:52:41 <frosch123> well, it's not as bad on weekends than on workdays when i might be flooded by 10 questions on 3 channels when i just sat down from work :p
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14:53:52 <andythenorth> work :P
14:56:52 <frosch123> he, i have a tool for that :p
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15:14:07 <Tom_Soft> !
15:14:14 <Tom_Soft> ?
15:14:28 <Tom_Soft> OpenTTD! =(
15:14:43 <Tom_Soft> Help me!
15:14:56 <Rubidium> use UTF8 and English, the rest we generally can't understand
15:15:57 <Rubidium> as what you wrote was mostly latin characters with diacritics
15:16:04 <Tom_Soft> I have not seen the list of servers in the game
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15:17:11 <Tom_Soft> Sorry, i'm from Russia
15:18:12 <Tom_Soft> Help me, dear friend! I'm not running a server in the game when choosing Internet
15:19:08 <Rubidium> most of the time it's a firewall blocking the traffic to or from our server
15:19:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: is there any way to trigger 'auto-refit chooses a subtype that changes lengths' ?
15:19:33 <frosch123> set up an explicit autorefit order
15:19:48 <frosch123> i.e. not "refit to available"
15:20:00 <Tom_Soft> .
15:20:00 <Tom_Soft> [21:18] <Rubidium> most of the time it's a firewall blocking the traffic to or from our server
15:20:00 <Tom_Soft> [21:18] <andythenorth> f
15:20:05 <Tom_Soft> Sorry!!!
15:20:16 <andythenorth> k
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15:38:17 <blergh> hello again
15:38:27 <blergh> i got the total town thingy but hasnt seemed to work
15:38:34 <blergh> im at 2078 now and no fancy buildings
15:38:40 <blergh> i play on temperate
15:41:16 <planetmaker> did you activate it in the newgrf settings?
15:43:54 <frosch123> before starting the game
15:45:17 <planetmaker> in other words: downloading an extension is not enough. You also need to select them for use in the next new game
15:51:22 <andythenorth> frosch123: limiting auto-refit to same subtype might cause bug reports...
15:51:31 <andythenorth> [incorrect bug reports]
15:52:04 <andythenorth> if previous refit differs, is there a way to tell the player what's going on?
15:52:09 <frosch123> well, we might need some way to limit the selection in the explicit refit gui
15:52:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23496 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp: -Fix: [Squirrel] Provide a proper error message when the _cmp meta-function doesn't return an integer
15:52:55 <frosch123> something like the transitive hull of all possible autorefits, starting from current cargotype and all depot-order-refits
15:53:06 <frosch123> but sounds complicated :p
15:55:02 <andythenorth> sounds complicated :P
15:55:10 * andythenorth considers disabling auto-refit
15:55:13 <andythenorth> for trams
15:55:33 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23497 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Add: Advanced display setting to control the linewidth in graphs. (ChillCore)
15:56:30 <planetmaker> andythenorth: so a tram can't load coal or iron ore without visiting a depot? ;-)
15:57:01 <andythenorth> yup
15:57:09 <andythenorth> this just has a bad smell to it
15:57:17 <andythenorth> the smell originates with subtypes
15:57:27 <planetmaker> how so?
15:57:38 <planetmaker> you know how long your tram is depending on subtype
15:58:09 <planetmaker> you have the full info available of previous and desired
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15:59:13 <andythenorth> meh where did my signal go :(
15:59:53 <andythenorth> if the previous order was 'auto-refit any available' it's not predictable what the current subtype will be
16:00:03 <andythenorth> hmm
16:00:07 <andythenorth> perhaps it is actually
16:00:31 <andythenorth> I'll add the auto-refit cb and await complaints :P
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16:02:05 * andythenorth thinks vehicles need another set of persistent storage, not hacks on cargos
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16:05:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: the refit cb will need to be called for all vehicles in consist, not just lead vehicle?
16:09:12 <frosch123> you must implement it for all, else only parts of the vehicle might be refitted
16:09:23 <frosch123> (i.e. for all refittable parts)
16:09:53 <andythenorth> k
16:09:58 <andythenorth> I'm bouncing the ticket
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16:10:11 <andythenorth> too much toddler to do this
16:10:29 <andythenorth> I've disabled auto-refit instead
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16:21:12 <frosch123> trash the subtype refits to different lengths, and add them as separate vehicles :p
16:22:15 <frosch123> also easier for ais
16:25:20 <Yexo> AIs can't even refit to a subtype
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16:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a problem with the AI interface then, not the grf
16:32:11 <Eddi|zuHause> AIs must be able to do anything a player could do
16:33:23 <frosch123> like reading the reame
16:34:31 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i am sure ai authors will appreciate it, if their ai can select between subtypes "long" and "short"
16:35:10 <frosch123> they only have to teach their ai to understand english, which must be easy judging by the amount of humans who can do it
16:37:31 <Alberth> just one lucky instance copied a few milliard times :p
16:37:44 <Rubidium> what about translations? ;)
16:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> "reading the readme" is what cb18 is supposed to do
16:40:32 <frosch123> "supposed" is nicely said :)
16:41:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not my fault that nobody even attempted to find a useful spec in the last 3 years
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16:42:18 <frosch123> even if there would be one, which grf would implement it?
16:44:04 <Yexo> every spec would fail as soon as the enginepool gets involved
16:44:26 <Yexo> and it's placing the code in the wrong location
16:44:30 <Yexo> an AI should pick the engine, not a grf
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16:45:15 <frosch123> it's the same discussion like what shall newgrfs say about industry opening/closure and what shall gs do :)
16:45:20 <Yexo> what could work isntead is a callback or some properties that provide static information
16:46:11 <Yexo> frosch123: that's not a real discussion since the implementation for grf control was already in place
16:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> how about something like this: for each (grf) { engines.append(grf.cb18("give me an engine sutibile for <cargo>, <train length> and <distance>")) } for each (engine) { consist = engine.grf.cb18("give me wagons for <engine>, <cargo>, <train length> and <distance>") }
16:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause> then engine and wagons would be guaranteed to come from the same grf
16:53:46 <Yexo> only that is missing information about how hilly the route is
16:54:05 <Yexo> two identical routes, one completely flat and one very hilly should possible result in different engines
16:54:21 <Yexo> also the decision might depend on the cargo weight modifier, do grfs even have access to that?
16:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> ok. that's some refinement to what parameters to pass
16:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
16:54:53 <Yexo> yes, but that quickly makes the decision so hard that's it's not feasible to implement in a grf
16:55:33 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the callback could just pass a "hilly" flag and a "long distance" flag
16:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> then it's the AI's job to figure out what is what
16:56:20 <Yexo> 1) AIs will still need to figure out what to do for newgrfs that don't support this
16:56:28 <Yexo> 2) Do you think many grfs will implement this?
16:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably would
16:57:51 <frosch123> i think implementing some vehicle construction sandbox is easier
16:58:07 <frosch123> then the ai can for free try stuff until it finds something useful
16:58:16 <frosch123> and the same is needed for consist-based replacement anyway
16:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but that doesn't cover telling "you need a caboose at the end of a long train"
17:07:13 <andythenorth> what "should" happen with GS and industry closure?
17:07:16 * andythenorth knows
17:10:18 <frosch123> it will result in the least common divider
17:11:03 <andythenorth> can AI measure the ruling grade on a route?
17:11:12 <andythenorth> and get the HP, train weight, and TE
17:11:13 <andythenorth> ?
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17:12:21 <frosch123> iirc we had some ideas about functions returning weight/te for loaded/unloaded vehicles, but never implemented them :p
17:12:55 <andythenorth> it seems deceptively simple
17:13:23 <frosch123> we wanted to hide stuff like freight train multiplier from the api
17:13:36 <andythenorth> for trains, the locomotive(s) should be selected to get the train over the ruling grade at a certain speed
17:13:40 <frosch123> and directly return the right loaded weight
17:13:57 <andythenorth> if there are multiple choices, then the lowest cost per ton, or per ton-mph should be used
17:14:20 <andythenorth> but then...reliability needs to be factored in
17:14:32 <andythenorth> and vehicle cost, depreciated (amortised) over expected lifetime
17:14:57 <andythenorth> with an acturial factor for anticipated accidents
17:16:07 <andythenorth> then...if you have a lot of intermediate stops, you might be concerned about acceleration
17:16:42 <andythenorth> and a six axle unit might be easier on the track than a four axle unit, so infrastructure needs to be considered
17:17:11 <andythenorth> does the unit have dynamic brakes, if you have a steep downgrade?
17:17:17 <andythenorth> or do you rely on having enough air :P
17:18:09 <andythenorth> and also....which one looks best?
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18:01:23 <andythenorth> bbl
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18:12:42 <Alberth> one ship that did not fit under the bridge :)
18:17:18 <peter1138> oops
18:17:24 <peter1138> needs more on it
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18:18:29 <Alberth> the dutch article about it
18:19:52 <Alberth> empty container, lots of height, and little weight :p
18:20:05 <Alberth> *containers
18:20:14 <Hirundo> Judging by the photo the captain can be lucky that there were containers on the ship at all, else the bridge and his forehead would've collided
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18:45:24 <Eddi|zuHause> we need that in openttd :p
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18:45:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23498 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
18:45:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
18:45:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
18:45:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 13 changes by Snail_, lorenzodv
18:45:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 13 changes by Lone_Wolf
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18:49:29 <swissfan91> hi everyone
18:49:45 <Alberth> hi
18:49:58 <Alberth> not sure if everyone is still here though
18:50:18 <swissfan91> ah
18:50:35 <Terkhen> hello
18:50:47 <swissfan91> i really want to somehow get a glacier into OTTD, how would I do that? I was thinking NewObjects, but that could be laborious. Any other ways?
18:51:04 <planetmaker> arctic climate and low snow line
18:51:15 <planetmaker> ;-)
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18:52:19 <swissfan91> I was thinking it would look good to have some snow/ice when the snow line recedes.
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18:52:45 <swissfan91> obviously a glacier above the snowline looks just like snow.
18:52:48 <Alberth> newobject would be the solution I think
18:54:54 <swissfan91> ok. There's no way it could someone tie in with rivers?
18:55:01 <planetmaker> swissfan91: something like the "fenced_land" from ogfx+landscape. Just w/o fences and with a permanent snow cover on the tiles (and some border on the outer tiles)
18:55:01 <swissfan91> technically a frozen river of ice ;)
18:55:16 <planetmaker> nah, that doesn't work, technically
18:55:23 <planetmaker> you can only construct it manually
18:55:45 <planetmaker> of course one could write a river newgrf which shows above a certain height different sprites.
18:55:55 <planetmaker> But only the river as gracier would look strange
18:56:56 <swissfan91> indeed it would.
18:58:54 <swissfan91> do newobject tiles only recognise snow, and no snow? none of the transitions inbetween?
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19:07:33 <swissfan91> anyone?
19:07:47 <Yexo> they can do transistions too
19:08:26 <swissfan91> Does that count for all tiles (town buildings)?
19:09:45 <Yexo> yes
19:09:52 <planetmaker> yes, you can do that
19:10:13 <planetmaker> you may have noticed that opengfx rivers and firs industries obey snow and desert transitions
19:10:42 <swissfan91> So i can draw say, a town building with full snow on the roof, and then one with tiny bits of snow on the roof, and it will change through the seasons?
19:11:05 <planetmaker> you need to draw it with 1/4, 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 snow density
19:11:16 <planetmaker> and 0/4
19:11:33 <planetmaker> though I'd draw the building. And then draw the snow separately as layer
19:11:39 <planetmaker> in separate sprites
19:11:41 <Alberth> not if you only allow building above the snow limit :)
19:11:58 <planetmaker> Alberth: that's hard for variable snowline
19:12:24 <swissfan91> what are the advantages for having snow as separate sprites?
19:12:44 <planetmaker> graphically you can adjust the building colours for example w/o touching snow
19:12:49 <Alberth> change the building only one time ?
19:12:52 <planetmaker> if you have it in layers
19:13:38 <Alberth> planetmaker: above the perma-snow line then :)
19:13:56 <swissfan91> ah ok. anyway I must go, thank you guys.
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20:38:46 <Wolf01> 'night
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20:40:32 <__ln__>
20:50:58 <xahodo> Hello
20:56:56 <Alberth> hello
20:58:30 <xahodo> I'm playing a busy game (1000+ vehicles, about a quarter of the map is one big town). The map is 1024x1024 and I am the server (on the slower computer). When I open a window my friend gets to deal with unbearable lag and eventually loses the connection.
20:59:44 <peter1138> opening a window causes lag on another client?
20:59:44 <Rubidium> what version of OpenTTD?
21:00:06 <xahodo> r23498
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21:00:10 <xahodo> nightly
21:01:14 <xahodo> peter1138: yes
21:01:44 <xahodo> We tried with a new game (nothing built), problem does not occur.
21:02:16 <Rubidium> the nightlies are (for a few days and will be for the coming few days) quite a bit slower than usual
21:02:35 <Rubidium> though opening a window shouldn't affect networking at all
21:03:09 <Rubidium> oh, any specific window? Or is it really just any window? (hard to believe because you normally have at least 3 windows open)
21:03:50 <Terkhen> good night
21:03:53 <xahodo> I have tried with local authorities and vehicles.
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21:08:06 <xahodo> CPU info and graphics resolution for both systems: server athlonxp 3200+ (2.2GHz, 1024x768), client athlon64x2 (2.2GHz, 1920x1200).
21:08:25 <xahodo> Now here's the bizarre: when he's host, there is no lag problem.
21:11:16 <xahodo> Of note is that this computer has 1 core, the other has 2 cores.
21:11:44 <Rubidium> so he might actually be having a slower computer (core speed, not total possible speed)
21:12:23 <Rubidium> in any case, an opened window propagates nothing through the network, so it shouldn't influence speed at all
21:15:10 <Yexo> xahodo: did you check cpu usage before and after you open a window on both computers?
21:15:31 <xahodo> moment
21:19:42 <xahodo> my cpu usage is steady between 85% and 95%. His usage of a regularly somewhat above 50%. Why, I do not know.
21:20:11 <glx> your cpu usage is quite high
21:20:40 <xahodo> I have never encountered this strange behavior before.
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21:23:28 <xahodo> ...and we have had a number of cpu intensive openttd games (which ended up with about the same amount of cpu usage from openttd as this game).
21:23:56 <xahodo> want a savegame to look at? :)
21:24:03 <Yexo> xahodo: if his usage is a bit above 50% he actually has the slower computer
21:24:15 <Yexo> at least as far as openttd is concerned, since most of the code only uses a single core
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21:37:12 <planetmaker> g'night
21:39:13 <xahodo> here's the savegame:
21:39:50 <xahodo> Oh, there's quite a bunch of newgrfs in use.
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21:52:02 <xahodo> Well, I'm off for the night.
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22:05:40 <frosch123> night
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