IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-04
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00:00:39 <chillcore> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah you are right. Just need to update YAIM to v3.1+fix and update language files ...
00:01:14 <Rubidium> oh, a hint about language files: the order of strings in the translations doesn't matter
00:01:39 <chillcore> It is just the starting over part that is holding me back a bit ...
00:02:11 <chillcore> Rubidium: It does not? how come that some string get the wrong order ingame then sometimes?
00:02:31 <chillcore> oh in the translations ... I see
00:04:03 <chillcore> good to know that, although it makes it easier to maintain them when keeping the correct order there too.
00:10:28 <chillcore> Anyway time for bed ... my kids won't care tomorrow morning if I have slept enough or not. They'll want food and stuff anyway.
00:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> food is overrated
00:11:55 <chillcore> I tried telling them that earlier this evening ... they didn't believe me. ;)
00:12:47 <chillcore> And they were already stuffed with candy ... oh well tomorrow is the rest of the pizza instead of sandwiches.
00:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause> people nowadays get way too much food anyway
00:13:15 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: sounds like procedures are working fine, even though slightly odd ;)
00:15:02 <chillcore> Eddi|zuHause: Not my kids ... They have it my way or no way (not only in regards of food). They respect me for that much more then what I see around me sometimes.
00:15:43 <Rubidium> as DoD I'd be happy to hear the captains noticed it and at least acted in some way to confirm there being a threat
00:17:14 <chillcore> Eddi|zuHause: I always have to laugh when children are able to manipulate their parents and the parents do not even see it happening.
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00:17:51 <chillcore> Anyway bedtime for me. Tomorrow is another day.
00:19:05 <Rubidium> but tomorrow is today
00:19:29 <Rubidium> anyhow, sweet dreams
00:20:03 <chillcore> Crap ... now I have to wait to go to bed. Or I have to sleep for 23 hours. :)
01:01:11 <appe> i have a station between two different industries both accepting coal
01:01:34 <appe> what decides who gets how much part of the coal?
01:02:28 <Yexo> the industry closest to the station sign gets all coal
01:12:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's always one that is found first, since the search is deterministic
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07:16:17 * andythenorth was about to apply the patch
07:16:21 <andythenorth> saved me time :)
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07:46:05 <andythenorth> stupid towns are full of theatres again
08:03:05 * andythenorth tries to figure out what's going on in BuildTownHouse
08:03:36 <andythenorth> prior to about 1930(?) most larger towns will be dominated into theatres
08:03:50 <planetmaker> default houses or newgrf?
08:04:49 <planetmaker> in any case it's like: Town wants to grow and says 'grow here (town zone X). What house do you give me?'
08:05:03 <planetmaker> which then is decided by the newgrf
08:05:22 <planetmaker> same thing works with default houses basically
08:05:31 * andythenorth wonders if it's because of limited choices for the inner town zone
08:06:38 <andythenorth> far as I can tell there are only 3 buildings available for inner area in 19th Century
08:06:58 <andythenorth> by 1930 there are at least 6, perhaps more
08:07:22 <andythenorth> I thought there'd be a table for this in src somewhere
08:07:27 <andythenorth> can't find it though :|
08:14:57 <Rubidium> so you just let me watch a commercial? ;)
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08:20:40 <planetmaker> I guess as pure art work it pays badly
08:26:16 <andythenorth> so before 1930, for any town large enough to get zone 5, zone 5 will be ~50% theatres
08:26:34 <andythenorth> (temperate, haven't counted other climates yet)
08:26:44 <andythenorth> I haven't counted for zone 4 yet :P
08:31:00 <andythenorth> temperate zone 4 < 1930 will be churches, theaters, stadiums, and one type of office block
08:31:44 <andythenorth> a society that clearly lives on religion, football and cabaret
08:31:55 <andythenorth> maybe accurate for 19th Century Britain :P
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08:55:52 <Terkhen> oh, I have a lot of strings to translate
08:59:40 <andythenorth> FIRS 'improved' station algorithm is improved too much
08:59:54 <Terkhen> I did not test YAIM but it seems fun :)
09:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's only one church and one stadium allowed per town
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09:09:05 <andythenorth> that's why theatres dominate then
09:09:17 <andythenorth> can we fix this?
09:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> by newgrf providing enough houses
09:09:55 <andythenorth> it seems dumb to have to load a newgrf to fix a game bug
09:10:52 * andythenorth considers making an all-in-one 'fix the game' newgrf
09:11:05 <planetmaker> well. Personally I still have the idea to get some "default newgrfs" which are automatically disabled when you add a newgrf which supplies that feature and which can also manually explicitly be disabled
09:11:14 <planetmaker> that would solve many issues and limitations of the base sets
09:11:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: or reimplement all the defaults *in newgrf*
09:11:49 <planetmaker> that'd be part of it. yes
09:12:10 <andythenorth> the theatres are a bug. they cause town population to fall when the town grows.
09:12:33 <andythenorth> unless someone can prove that removing that (a) breaks newgrfs (c) breaks some mythical TTDP compatibility, it's a bug :)
09:12:44 * andythenorth missed point (b)
09:12:50 <andythenorth> what is point (b) ? :o
09:14:09 <andythenorth> it's fixable by extending the number of zones some of the houses can occupy
09:14:21 <andythenorth> + set a couple of intro dates to 0 instead of 1930
09:14:53 <planetmaker> would fix it. Would also modify house NewGRFs.
09:15:22 <andythenorth> but we're prepared to break newgrfs to fix a bug...
09:15:42 <andythenorth> this only affects temperate btw
09:15:51 <andythenorth> well...maybe toyland, I didn't check toyland :P
09:16:50 <andythenorth> toyland also unaffected. that was an unpleasant 1 min
09:17:31 <Rubidium> just make yourself comfortable with it, you'll be playing it a lot with your child(ren) ;)
09:18:07 <andythenorth> rm 'openttd' -r in that case
09:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: setting house dates to 0 breaks lots of (newgrf) assumptions
09:21:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and it doesn't solve any bugs either
09:24:07 <andythenorth> maybe I just add it to all my grfs :P
09:24:20 <andythenorth> or we change the wiki
09:24:45 <andythenorth> is it actually intentional? it's the same effect as parks and statues have
09:24:56 <andythenorth> grow town -> lose population
09:27:17 <andythenorth> documentation bug?
09:28:12 <andythenorth> wiki page on town growth could be adjusted to something like...
09:28:18 <andythenorth> 'Before 1930, in Temperate climate, try to avoid growing towns if you are also providing passenger service, as growing the town will reduce the population'
09:28:37 <andythenorth> 'To avoid growing the town, do not pickup cargo at more than 4 stations within n days'
09:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that's both silly and wrong
09:33:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth: n theatres still have more population than n-1 theatres
09:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should change the town zones, so even in 10k-40k population cities, it covers only a handful of tiles
09:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> "it" being zone 5
09:34:24 <andythenorth> zone 4 causes the same issue in temperate
09:34:30 <andythenorth> although I still can't figure out why
09:34:41 <andythenorth> n theatres should indeed increase popn
09:34:49 <andythenorth> and theatre popn > house popn
09:34:59 <andythenorth> so replacing houses should increase popn
09:35:15 <Eddi|zuHause> houses under construction don't count towards population
09:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so _any_ tonwn growth may temporarily lower population
09:35:52 <andythenorth> the falling popn occurs when theatres (35 popn) replace this 100 popn building TOWN_BUILDING_NAME_SHOPS_AND_OFFICES_2
09:36:39 <planetmaker> I can't help the feeling that a N=1 observation is generalized to 'always' in this discussion
09:37:15 <andythenorth> you can never disprove that
09:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> "proof by example"
09:38:34 <andythenorth> it's just a game :P
09:38:45 <andythenorth> but I cba to continue playing that one
09:39:05 <Eddi|zuHause> try TTRS or swedi...
09:39:20 <Eddi|zuHause> what did i tell about blitzquitting?
09:42:39 <Terkhen> but he does not want to use a bouncer :P
09:42:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23418 /trunk/src/saveload/town_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#4866] (r22958): saves made with the Catalan town name generator would trigger a "savegame corrupt" exception
09:43:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23419 /trunk/src/newgrf_debug_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4864] (r23316): the sprite aligner was broken as it didn't scale properly to 'GUI' scale
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09:53:28 <amix> Terkhen: i wish openttd got ported further for morphos :/
09:54:51 <Terkhen> I barely know what morphos is so I can't help you much besides the usual "ports need someone dedicated enough to make the necessary changes polished enough for trunk" comment
09:54:53 <planetmaker> there's one way to make sure: help porting it
09:55:16 <planetmaker> (otherwise I'm with Terkhen there)
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09:56:29 <Terkhen> hmm... I remember some comments about the morphos port
09:56:36 <Terkhen> IIRC it uses an ancient gcc :P
09:57:04 <planetmaker> yes, I have similar memories
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10:09:41 <amix> and latest nightbuild is r131825
10:09:48 <planetmaker> both is... ancient
10:09:50 <amix> and latest nightbuild is r13825
10:10:26 <amix> atleast someone ported Simutrans now
10:10:33 <Alberth> so first step, getting a decent g++ at morphos?
10:12:35 <Terkhen> I remembered something like 2.x, which it also seems to use
10:12:45 <Terkhen> I have no clue of this OS so I'm going to stop talking :P
10:13:13 <amix> this is more recent news
10:15:17 <Amis> Soooo... I'm on 1.1.3 now and I kind of encountered this strange behaviour of landscaping
10:15:40 <Amis> I'm not able to do it on huge areas, it does only random parts of the selected area
10:15:53 <Amis> Am I missing something here?
10:16:10 <Zuu> There is a setting to limit amount of landscaping in short amount of time.
10:16:10 <Alberth> you're hitting the terraform limits
10:17:07 <Zuu> It is mostly targeted towards multiplayer but can be used in single player too.
10:17:40 <Amis> It's the "terraform_per_64k_frames" I guess?
10:18:05 <Zuu> There are a few settings there (4 IIRC) related to the terroforming limits
10:18:17 <Alberth> terraform_per_64k_frames = 4194304
10:18:17 <Alberth> terraform_frame_burst = 4096
10:18:49 <Amis> The 64k one has to be a multiply of 2?
10:19:04 <Alberth> one is the amount, and the other is the increment rate
10:20:55 <Alberth> c->terraform_limit = min(c->terraform_limit + _settings_game.construction.terraform_per_64k_frames, (uint32)_settings_game.construction.terraform_frame_burst << 16);
10:21:13 <Amis> When was the feature implemented?
10:23:05 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r21728 /trunk/src (12 files in 4 dirs) (2011-01-04 22:50:09 UTC)
10:23:06 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Fix/Feature [FS#4331]: (configurably) limit amount of tiles that can be cleared/terraformed by a company
10:24:08 <Amis> And now comes the obvious question: where can I disable it? :3
10:24:38 <Alberth> not, but you can set the 64k one high enough not to be bothered by it
10:26:09 <TrueBrain> and burst (which is the max of the bucket), so when you do nothingm it collectsmore :)
10:27:33 <Amis> Okkey, int max was a bad idea, I guess it turned over and now I'm not allowed to terraform at all :)
10:30:39 <Alberth> the settings that I pasted are the defaults
10:35:06 <Zuu> And the defaluts are not very restrictive.
10:44:12 <Rubidium> amix: MorphOS is a pretty closed OS; you need MorphOS running to be able to compile it, and running it isn't that trivial if you don't have the hardware. IIRC it even doesn't (or at least didn't) work in qemu, so you need to have some MorphOS developer wanting to do the work
10:44:22 <Rubidium> instead of a random somewhat interested person
10:45:10 <Amis> I have to admit scenarios generated with heightmaps are far the most beautiful maps in game
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10:48:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23420 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Change: Put the manager name directly under the picture instead of vertically centering it.
10:48:34 <Arkabzol> Terraforming is for people who aren't lazy, so I made a heightmap that is almost completely flat. And the lakes are rectangular.
10:49:02 <frosch123> isn't that like completely boring?
10:50:17 <Arkabzol> I could make tunnels if I wanted to.
10:50:21 <Arkabzol> That would be a bit boring.
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10:52:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r23421 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4865, FS#4861] (r23393): The priority of WC_GAME_OPTIONS windows were too high, causing hiding of currency window as well.
10:55:21 * Lachie throws Python through a window
10:59:15 <Alberth> snakes don't like being thrown
11:02:05 <Lachie> though, I don't particularly like when python can't find standard modules included in it
11:05:21 <planetmaker> paths set correctly?
11:07:02 <Lachie> yes indeed. does mingw ignore the environmental variables?
11:08:59 <Alberth> python -v dumps the directories it searches and modules it finds/loads
11:10:42 <Lachie> actually, it's making reference to the stuff residing in a folder (and drive) that doesn't exist. curious.
11:11:20 <SpComb> it'll do a lot of lookups for nonexistant folders
11:11:29 <SpComb> within the search paths configured
11:11:44 <SpComb> check sys.path from within the interp
11:18:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23422 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.h openttd.cpp table/settings.ini): -Fix [FS#4863] (r22797): the default palette setting wasn't applied correctly anymore as the configuration file is loaded after the first NewGRF scan
11:56:35 <amix> Rubidium: morphos community is offering to give away hardware for openttd to be developed further
11:56:56 <amix> so just tell me if someone is interested
11:57:09 <TrueBrain> lol; that many OpenTTD players in the MorphOS community? :P
11:57:46 <Rubidium> amix: we rather have a good working cross-compiler as a morphos machine is difficult to put in a rack in a datacentre
11:58:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r23423 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Revert (r23421): NewGRF windows may not be moved to normal priority.
11:59:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23424 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Change: Make the company GUI somewhat smaller if there are no shareholders.
12:00:27 <amix> we play latest version ported on Amiga meetings and so on still
12:00:35 <TrueBrain> Alberth: different people committing at the same time always excites me :D
12:00:58 <TrueBrain> amix: you should just seduce tokai ;)
12:01:43 <Rubidium> amix: and I don't think OpenTTD needs much porting; it's pretty careless about the platforms as long as its unixy enough (or has a set of wrappers) and has sdl (or a custom video/sound/music driver)
12:02:16 <Rubidium> that says 0.6.3, not 0.3.6
12:02:25 <Rubidium> and that's a pretty big difference ;)
12:03:28 <tokai> amix: Where do I sign up for this free hardware?
12:04:05 <amix> tokai: it was amigadave who offered that on morphzone
12:04:17 <amix> tokai: long time no see. miss you :)
12:05:25 <tokai> amix: Yeah.. I had quit MophOS development in March. :)
12:06:33 <tokai> missed an 'r' there... oups.
12:06:50 <tokai> amix: Something like last week.
12:07:22 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23425 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Document [FS#4815]: why vehicles might be continuously changing speed up and down
12:07:29 <tokai> amix: Nobody missed me really. :)
12:09:12 <amix> I think your a cool person to discuss with
12:10:16 <tokai> amix: Anyway... about that free hardware.... ask if it's a PowerBook :)
12:11:29 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r23426 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Change [FS#4685] (r23423): Put currency window above game options.
12:12:01 <amix> tokai: I have a PowerBook
12:13:22 <tokai> amix: I have none. But I'm in charge for developing software for Battery support. Quite a dilemma, huh? :)
12:15:16 <TrueBrain> well, at least yours is always charged then :D
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12:25:43 <amix> tokai: stefkos ported Simutrans for MorphOS :) Its soo slow hehe :) but ok to play even with 11FPS
12:27:40 <tokai> amix: Never heard of it.
12:29:24 <tokai> Looks like some TTD clone, yes.
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12:57:20 <amix> tokai: hope to see an openttd update some time
13:00:14 * andythenorth wonders if GS can control details of house construction
13:00:23 <andythenorth> likely a bad idea
13:08:07 <defiance> Anyone know of a good tutorial on using signals and Semaphores? I think I understand them, just want a tutorial to make sure.
13:09:14 <planetmaker> defiance: if you understand them, then a game is the ultimate test ;-)
13:09:34 <ABCRic> can someone confirm the music is working correctly on the latest nightly?
13:10:45 <ABCRic> I'm using the win32 nightly (r23401) and no music is played. The jukebox loops through all the music tracks as if they were empty.
13:11:16 <defiance> Thank you Alberth, and planetmaker.
13:11:54 <Rubidium> ABCRic: it works fine for me
13:14:48 <glx> ABCRic: this behaviour usually means no music files
13:15:12 <ABCRic> glx: they're there. Windows Media Player can play them fine
13:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> ABCRic: checked the game settings?
13:16:10 <ABCRic> 1.1.3 works fine, r23401 and trunk don't
13:16:44 <glx> where are the music files ?
13:17:20 <ABCRic> Documents\OpenTTD\content_download\gm\<set_name>
13:17:58 <ABCRic> trunk is self-compiled, 1.1.3 and r23401 aren't
13:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> try to find the last revision that works? (bisecting checkouts)
13:22:13 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23427 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: Do not load screen resolution and other basic stuff after bootstrap is finished. It was already loaded before, and might got changed already.
13:23:03 <frosch123> ABCRic: did you use a nightly before? or only 1.1.3?
13:23:50 <ABCRic> I've been self-compiling since a few thousand revisions ago
13:24:06 <ABCRic> 1.1.4-RC1 is also working fine
13:24:10 <frosch123> so it worked once for stuff newer than r23219?
13:24:27 <frosch123> or did you update from something older?
13:26:05 <ABCRic> Also, the original_windows set is at Documents\OpenTTD\gm
13:27:26 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23428 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Fix (r23415): Initial size of the infrastructure details windows was sometimes too small.
13:27:39 <ABCRic> The jukebox loops all the tracks' names instantly, as if each track had <1sec duration
13:28:01 <frosch123> ABCRic: what happend if you rename Documents\OpenTTD\gm to Documents\OpenTTD\baseset ?
13:29:38 <andythenorth> FIRS fishing harbours are very annoying
13:30:36 <glx> filename = 0x0018f348 "D:\Mes documents\OpenTTD\content_download\baseset\GM_TT00.GM"
13:30:47 <glx> indeed it doesn't look where files are
13:31:25 <ABCRic> I'm off for lunch, brb
13:33:56 <glx> FindSets() correctly looks in gm and data
13:36:02 <frosch123> glx: FioFindFullPath does not seem to test the old dirs
13:37:31 <Rubidium> so if it fails for baseset it should try gm I guess (in the music_gui.cpp code)
13:37:52 <Rubidium> as that's basically the only code that doesn't use the 'normal' code for opening a file
13:53:05 <ABCRic> I'm back, any luck on the issue?
13:56:31 <appe> "cargo waiting to be processed: 2,992 vehicles (486 max)"
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14:00:22 <ABCRic> appe: IIRC, there's a NewGRF property that makes industries ignore maximum capacities
14:00:25 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23429 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4842]: prevent windows to be resized beyond the bounds of the (main) window
14:00:49 <appe> ABCRic: ah, thats true. i guess i forgot using it
14:17:54 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: glx * r23430 /trunk/src/music_gui.cpp: -Fix (r23219): also consider the old directories when playing a song
14:46:00 <andythenorth> FIRS should allow closure of outdated industries
14:46:04 <andythenorth> how can that be done?
14:47:37 <ABCRic> music is now detected correctly, but the volume is much lower than it was before
14:51:09 <glx> just move the volume control
14:51:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: in grfv8 you can do date-specific appearance chances
14:51:58 <andythenorth> worth knowing thanks :)
14:53:49 <ABCRic> glx: with the same setting as before, the music isn't as loud as before
14:54:32 <glx> music volume is a hard thing to handle
14:54:44 <ABCRic> test trunk against 1.1.4-RC1
14:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: now nml only needs to output v8 grfs :p
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15:31:13 <TrueBrain> nice start on the tutorial thingy Zuu :)
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15:36:06 <Zuu> I'm not sure if non-linearity is really needed. Makes things easier if each chapter is just a sequence of steps. At least if a step model is used.
15:36:20 <TrueBrain> I think it would be the most sane Tutorial
15:36:36 <TrueBrain> only possible branching on chapter selection
15:36:54 <Zuu> Another way is how TutorialAI is made. That each chapter is a function call that only returns when that chapter is done. However, then there need to be a lot of event polling everywhere.
15:37:03 <TrueBrain> some weird idea how you can do chapter selection, is by letting them start a certain train which goes into a depot or station or whatever :P
15:38:04 <Zuu> Yep, if it is bound to a scenario that would be possible. Also with the 2500 init ticks, one could build a menu like that. :-)
15:38:26 <TrueBrain> the tutorial should be loaded with a scenario yes :)
15:38:30 <TrueBrain> a random map might be very hard
15:38:38 <TrueBrain> it might fail in some cases, which would be bad :)
15:41:37 <Zuu> Regarding highlighting buttons etc. I think it would be useful if there is an Event for when the highlighted button is clicked.
15:42:37 <TrueBrain> else highlihting is a bit silly I guess :D
15:42:44 <Zuu> so that can be used for progressing the tutorial rather than having a "button" / sign to progress.
15:43:05 <TrueBrain> started a new build of NoGo btw
15:43:10 <TrueBrain> with all the new goodies (excluding translations)
15:44:34 <Zuu> I'll be afk for a while. cya later
15:46:59 <planetmaker> Zuu: I shall surely try to be of assistance there
15:48:17 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23431 /trunk/src/script/api/script_road.hpp: -Fix: typo in @param variable
15:48:56 <TrueBrain> a clear case of copy/paste :D
16:00:52 <TrueBrain> new NoGo version online :)
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17:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> why does the "quote" button not have snow?
17:24:00 <Alberth> it only snows at the left side of the window?
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17:30:05 <fabis94> um can I ask a question here about the game :P
17:31:16 <Alberth> at IRC, people just burst into the channel with their question :)
17:32:09 <Alberth> then, the non-patient ones leave again within 10 minutes, and the patient ones wait for an answer :p
17:32:21 <fabis94> what do I do with the mail lol
17:32:34 <fabis94> my plane just picked up mail from one city, flew over to another city
17:32:39 <fabis94> and instead of putting it down or whatever
17:32:44 <fabis94> it just flies it back
17:33:06 <Alberth> you have transfer orders for the plane at the destination?
17:33:20 <Alberth> if so, that's wrong :)
17:33:32 <fabis94> The orders are like this: 1. Go to X (Unload and take cargo)
17:33:38 <fabis94> 2. Go to Y (unload and take cargo)
17:34:11 <fabis94> i just want it to unload stuff thats supposed to go to X at X and pick up stuff that it will carry to Y, then fly to Y
17:34:12 <Alberth> ok, that looks fine, if the airport can deliver mail to houses
17:34:23 <fabis94> well i had a mail truck
17:34:29 <fabis94> 1 truck station was inside the city
17:34:32 <fabis94> other one was at the airport
17:34:42 <fabis94> all it did was just pick up the mail
17:34:51 <fabis94> when it loaded it off, then it just instantly picked it all up again
17:35:02 <fabis94> so it just carried the same mail all the time
17:35:13 <Alberth> ah, you need transfer orders in this case, let me find a wiki page for you
17:40:27 <Alberth> feeder systems can be a lot of fun to experiment with
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17:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said earlier, "fun" and "annoying" can be very close together
17:44:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you have a toddler too?
17:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i can abstract from having an actual toddler quite well :p
17:47:14 <fabis94> also is there a fast way of replacing vehicles?
17:47:24 <fabis94> my very first vehicles are too old and i dont want to replace them one by one :/
17:47:50 <Alberth> then autorenew @ the wiki
17:48:01 <Alberth> else autoreplace @ the wiki :)
17:49:52 * andythenorth has temporarily run out of things to complain about :(
17:50:37 <andythenorth> maybe a visit to the suggestions forum will cure that
17:50:59 <Alberth> andythenorth: so now you must be happy :p
17:51:38 <Alberth> you're happy when complaining?
17:51:44 <andythenorth> I am happiest when working out how to make things better
17:52:14 <Alberth> that's a common disease here, I think :p
17:59:10 <V453000> hello, did sprite aligner get somehow influenced by the extra zoom?
17:59:33 <V453000> it seems to show ridiculous offset values to me
18:01:26 <V453000> very recent :) thank you
18:02:37 <V453000> when will r23419 be available? :)
18:03:15 <Alberth> never, as we are at r23431 already :p
18:07:54 *** ttforumstest has joined #openttd
18:08:04 <ttforumstest> fear the potential influx of TT-Forums newbies! :p
18:09:42 <TinoDidriksen> Someone using the web IRC client.
18:09:57 <fabis94> btw is there a way to carry coal on a plane?
18:10:18 <fabis94> I tried crates of goods, but it didn't work so I guess you cant carry coal like that :D
18:10:19 <Terkhen> fabis94: use a aircraft NewGRF set that allows refitting to coal
18:10:37 * Terkhen does not know which ones allow that, though
18:10:40 <Alberth> goods is a cargo just like coal, it is not a way of packaging
18:10:52 <frosch123> Terkhen: i think orudge added an option to tt-forums to also join #openttd with the webchat
18:11:12 <Alberth> but standard aircraft do not allow coal to be carried afaik
18:11:45 <frosch123> the extensions you get in the online content
18:11:50 <Alberth> click 'online contents' at the intro screen :)
18:13:13 <Alberth> and some of these extension add aircrafts
18:13:52 <fabis94> av8 Aviators Aircraft set?
18:16:59 <fabis94> well I've installed the set, do I need to get a special plane? because I can't refit it to coal
18:21:07 <Alberth> but coal by aircraft does not sound very useful :p
18:21:16 <fabis94> well I just created a new game and the newgrf shows up in it's settings, but it doesn't show up when I load an existing game
18:21:41 <Alberth> once you started a game, the set of NewGRFs is fixed
18:21:59 <Alberth> the setup becomes part of the game
18:26:20 <Alberth> this also holds for (most) other options and settings you can do at the intro screen, btw
18:27:08 <orudge> frosch123: that option was always there
18:27:15 <orudge> it just used a Java applet
18:27:20 <orudge> well, always as in "for the past couple of years"
18:32:36 <Rubidium> oh... now the general error is gone again ;(
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18:43:08 <andythenorth> Alberth: consists? :D :P
18:44:03 <Xaroth> andythenorth: you do lots of newgrf.. how hard is it to construct a newgrf that gets rid of all them annoying statues and fountains towns build -_-
18:44:05 <Alberth> is that still unclear?
18:44:33 <andythenorth> Xaroth: I don't know, haven't done any house newgrfs
18:44:42 <andythenorth> there might even be a newgrf for that
18:45:07 <Alberth> Xaroth: but I just love the statues that I give to all the towns ;)
18:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> one action 8, and two action 0 to disable the two houses
18:45:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23432 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: croatian - 27 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: english_US - 25 changes by Rubidium
18:45:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 27 changes by jpx_
18:46:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 25 changes by planetmaker
18:46:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by junho2813
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18:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> can combine those to one if they have consecutive IDs
18:46:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: you solved consists? :o
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18:48:58 <Alberth> what parts are not solved then at conceptual level? it seems to me it 'just' needs implementation of the current ideas to understand where the details go wrong
18:49:22 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: or if you don't care about what's in between :p
18:50:57 <andythenorth> Alberth: I got lost in the last detailed discussion of groups / consists? :D
18:51:12 <andythenorth> maybe it's simple
18:52:00 <Alberth> who said anything about groups? :) that would be a seperate (or second) problem
18:53:15 <Alberth> I have no overview of the state of groups
18:54:21 * andythenorth considers reading auto-replace / auto-renew code
18:54:31 <andythenorth> it's annoying that subtypes aren't honoured
19:03:29 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Is it indended that GSCompanyMode isn't active more than the next (do) command?
19:03:58 <Zuu> I have to call it before each placement of signs in order to get them as company 0.
19:05:04 <TrueBrain> hmm, no, it should be scope based
19:05:10 <TrueBrain> I don't see why that wouldn't work
19:05:21 <TrueBrain> owh, hmm .. well .. hmm , yes
19:05:28 <TrueBrain> will fix it (and test it) for next release Zuu :)
19:05:31 <TrueBrain> tnx for noticing :D
19:05:48 <TrueBrain> (DoCommand suspends, then _current_company is assigned by the controller, which is the wrong value :p)
19:06:18 <fabis94> hey guys, the local authority of a town doesnt allow me to build stuff near him, how can I make him like me? :D
19:07:25 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23433 /trunk/src/table/palette_convert.h: -Fix [FS#4868]: recolouring of some animated colours from the windows palette went wrong
19:08:37 <Alberth> you have to ask better questions to not have an answer at the wiki :)
19:09:59 <Rubidium> "when will the OSX bug reports be fixed"? ;)
19:10:14 <fabis94> oh well I did look at the first page but it didnt really explain how to do stuff
19:10:24 <fabis94> so ill look at the second one
19:12:11 <Zuu> TrueBrain: I try to build a bus stop as the human player (just to try out the company mode). However, I get a precondition failed although I know that both tiles are nearby. Code: http://pastebin.com/xbEr05Bi
19:12:36 <Alberth> fabis94: oh? .... destroying town's industries, buildings, roads, tunnels and bridges all lower the company rating ... planting trees, successful bribes and providing services to the town ... increases the company rating is not a how to do stuff?
19:12:42 <Zuu> This code live in a while loop that loops until "done" is true.
19:13:05 * andythenorth ponders a 'gs cb' for industries
19:13:16 <andythenorth> I need some kind of queue or array structure to store control codes in
19:13:16 <TrueBrain> Zuu: hmm ... will investigate
19:13:21 <TrueBrain> tbh, only tried signs, and assmed it would work :D
19:13:24 <Zuu> And my map is filled with "try" + "front" signs that are positioned correctly to be used as input to the function.
19:13:45 <TrueBrain> will test it better tomorrow :D
19:13:46 <andythenorth> could probably fake a queue or array with n registers, but seems clunky. Bit masks seem unwieldy for what I have in mind
19:15:01 <andythenorth> I also have in mind that the GS could put text on the text stack or pass string codes for use by industry
19:15:33 <andythenorth> I could give 10 good examples for use if that is helpful...
19:16:49 <andythenorth> "industry x closed because it's production methods are outdated"
19:17:02 <andythenorth> "industry x closed by local authority - too much pollution"
19:17:15 <andythenorth> "industry x increased production for reason xyz"
19:17:37 <andythenorth> "industry x on strike - no production"
19:17:52 <andythenorth> "industry x will close in n months if xyz not delivered"
19:18:02 <andythenorth> "industry x will increase production if xyz delivered"
19:19:09 <andythenorth> "industry x is closing, but will be replaced by industry y at same location"
19:19:40 <andythenorth> "industry x will produce twice as much [stuff] due to secret production process"
19:21:06 <andythenorth> "build object type x within n tiles of industry for a production boost"
19:21:43 <Alberth> aka you need GS control of production change and/or closure
19:21:48 <andythenorth> "deliver n passengers month to town near industry x or production will fall due to shortage of workers"
19:22:01 <andythenorth> Alberth: could be done via town registers tbh
19:22:04 * Zuu got 22800 signs in a game
19:22:18 <andythenorth> I'm just not sure how to fake a queue or array
19:22:55 <andythenorth> ideally authors wouldn't have to worry which register to use, but rather pass a dword which was a control code (256 is enough), an amount (word sized) and a string code (maybe)
19:23:28 <TrueBrain> Zuu: concratz. How does it feel? :P
19:23:29 <andythenorth> for closure it would be relatively trivial to hook this into [FIRS] closure code
19:23:36 <Zuu> TrueBrain: OpenTTD is slow
19:23:47 <andythenorth> the newgrf still executes all logic, GS just passes messages
19:24:35 <Zuu> A slight issue is that you can't pasue a GS. So it just keep adding signs until I close the game or exit OpenTTD. :-)
19:25:06 <Alberth> town registers? don't know what they are exactly, but it feels like going to Rome over Moscow to me
19:25:12 <TrueBrain> Zuu: so don't post that many signs :D
19:28:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: I can't think of a way to do it where the GS has direct control over production / closure
19:28:35 <andythenorth> that logic is all private to the newgrf, there's no safe assumptions can be made about it
19:29:50 <Alberth> but why not extend the industry interface instead of this messing with town registers
19:29:57 <andythenorth> well that is the other route yes
19:30:07 <Rubidium> closure is easy: just bomb the factory
19:30:11 <Alberth> which for me is unclear whether all industries actually have a town
19:30:15 <andythenorth> I didn't want to propose something new - town registers might be an adequate solution
19:30:21 <andythenorth> all industries have a town afaik
19:30:26 <andythenorth> I've never proved it though
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19:31:46 <Rubidium> oh shoot... DestructIndustry does put it back to it's construction stage; it doesn't completely destroy it
19:31:57 * andythenorth wonders if an actual stack could be implemented for GS control codes to industries
19:32:43 <andythenorth> any industry cb handling code just runs the stack. If it doesn't know what to do with a control code, it puts it back on the stack
19:33:06 * andythenorth wonders if a dword is enough?
19:33:18 <andythenorth> 640KB is enough for everyone right?
19:33:22 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23434 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 5 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare: 1.1.4
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19:40:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23435 /tags/1.1.4/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.1.4 down the chimney, 1.1 in a jute bag to warmer pastures (I hope)
20:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> question about correctness/sensibility of this function: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/mod.diff
20:04:36 <frosch123> for negative a you return values between 1..b
20:05:32 <frosch123> a = -b -> b - b%b = b - 0 = b
20:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i see where i went wrong
20:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> update (same link)
20:11:00 <frosch123> the { would go on a new line, but the rest looks correct
20:11:16 <frosch123> no idea where you want to use it though :p
20:11:22 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23436 /trunk/ (changelog.txt known-bugs.txt os/debian/changelog readme.txt): -Merge: documentation updates from 1.1
20:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i wanted to unify some grid code, and stumbled upon a line like "a%=3; if (a!=2 || a!=-1) ..."
20:14:24 <frosch123> i remember that line
20:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> with that above function my unified line would look like "a=Mod(a, spacing+1); if (a < 2) ..."
20:17:23 <andythenorth> thought on an explicit cb between GS and industry?
20:17:34 <andythenorth> passing arbitrary values, maybe in a stack
20:17:53 <andythenorth> (it's a cb on the GS by the industry)
20:18:03 <Rubidium> heffer, blathijs: release! ;)
20:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: NewGRFs shouldn't "call" anything, only have "callbacks"
20:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so only the GS could ask the NewGRF anything, not the other way round
20:19:24 <andythenorth> unless there's a return value, that's of limited use for the problem I have in mind
20:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so if at all, there should be a generification of cb18 (AI construction callback)
20:22:44 <andythenorth> generification in which direction(s) ?
20:25:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that AIs and GSs can ask the newgrfs what the hell they are actually doing (like a "readme" sort of thing)
20:25:57 <andythenorth> i.e. use the town storage?
20:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> things like "this industry has stockpiles" and "this industry runs out of ressources"
20:27:20 <andythenorth> I keep forgetting - GS has no way of knowing what type an industry is?
20:27:30 <andythenorth> i.e. not even the ID?
20:28:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure there are ways to get the IDs, as well as the IDs of the produced/accepted cargos
20:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but IDs are meaningless, because there's a dozen different GRFs out there, and they're only going to get more
20:29:01 <andythenorth> I'd file that under 'if you want to control things, bind tightly to one industry set'
20:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that'd be an awfully short-sighted move
20:29:26 <andythenorth> I'm pretty happy with the idea that 'any GS' + 'any industry grf' is not going to come to much
20:30:02 <andythenorth> is there the possibility of a spec across industry grfs?
20:30:54 <andythenorth> - there's no chance of an enforceable technical spec, that has zero mileage in it by design
20:31:20 <andythenorth> - how about conventions for industry behaviour?
20:31:58 <planetmaker> you've seen the "convention" discussion about the bauxite colour?
20:32:14 <planetmaker> you first have to discuss whether disussing that is sensible
20:32:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause posits that it's short sighted not to
20:32:42 <andythenorth> he might be right, he might be wrong, only one way to find out :P
20:33:48 <andythenorth> my claim is: when writing a GS, either treat industries as black box, or write a GS tightly bound to specific version of specific newgrf
20:33:55 <andythenorth> I don't see any middle ground at all
20:34:00 * andythenorth is happy to be wrong
20:34:25 <Alberth> we'll see once GS hits trunk :)
20:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> how long since AIs are in trunk?
20:35:04 <Eddi|zuHause> absolutely NO movement has been achieved on cb18 for trains since then
20:35:38 <andythenorth> what are the limitations of cb18?
20:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd implements CB18 only for stations
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20:51:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how could such an approach allow the GS to pass arbitrary information to the industry (control codes)
20:52:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: extra callback info? (var10, var18, i believe)
20:54:05 <andythenorth> what might be good triggers for this cb?
20:54:21 <andythenorth> for the purpose I have in mind, it would be whenever the GS chooses to call it
20:54:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's the point of the CB
20:55:22 * andythenorth wonders if a stack would be essential, or over-complex
20:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's gonna be something like a stack
20:56:29 <andythenorth> I could implement one privately, given enough registers (or town registers)
20:56:35 <andythenorth> I just don't know if it's one
20:57:19 <andythenorth> GS -> newgrf communication needs to be asynchronous, due to way industry cbs work
20:57:41 <andythenorth> which means GS might want to pass multiple control codes, to be handled appropriately by each industry cb later
20:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the GS won't care about what the GRF does with the data (store it, throw it away, ...)
20:59:55 <andythenorth> but the newgrf might want to be able to handle more than one GS-originated control code
21:00:04 <andythenorth> due to timing of cbs...
21:00:19 <andythenorth> suggests a private stack in the newgrf
21:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the newgrf's problem
21:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind the default behaviour would be that the GS asks about data, and the GRF does nothing
21:03:27 <andythenorth> this only works where the newgrf supports it
21:03:40 <andythenorth> it *might* be possible to find conventions across newgrfs
21:03:45 <andythenorth> but it's...work :P
21:04:20 <andythenorth> e.g. things like 'close', 'increase production' etc are generic
21:04:39 <andythenorth> but other stuff is very specific to eac hnewgrf
21:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't the production callback already come with an external value that "suggests" what the industry should do?
21:08:37 <andythenorth> allowing GS to control that value would be one easy way to provide some influence over industry
21:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. so why are we still discussing this? :p
21:10:46 <andythenorth> it would be somewhat...limited
21:13:14 <andythenorth> - no control over black holes
21:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> so: 1) GS should have a function industry.changeproduction({increase, decrease, close, ...}). this call is _asynchronous_, i.e the result will not be immediately. also, this is passed to the production callback, where the GRF can choose to ignore the value.
21:14:35 <andythenorth> it's a nice idea, but of limited use, or we'd have to change newgrf spec a bit
21:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) industry NewGRFs should get CB18-like method to ask about industry properties, e.g. maximum input stockpile, maximum production rate, input conversion rate, ...
21:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> what else would be useful?
21:16:11 <andythenorth> I am short on requests for this
21:16:17 <andythenorth> I think it should be very sparse
21:16:46 <andythenorth> if cb-18 like method can also pass values in register or var, then that's all the flexibility needed right there
21:17:03 <andythenorth> suggestion 1) is valid, but likely to fail a lot with newgrf industry
21:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of data do you imagine passing there?
21:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that CB18 is intended for AIs, which likely shouldn't be able to influence the industry
21:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine CB18 as the AI's way of reading the industry window
21:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> everything that you would put for the player to read there, should be accessible by CB18
21:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so a "GS control" CB should likely be separate
21:22:21 <andythenorth> that sounds fine too
21:25:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the data I'd imagine passing is some kind of control code
21:26:06 <andythenorth> possibly with parameters, depending if they fit in a dword or such :P
21:27:17 <andythenorth> I can see how to do it for the cases I've thought of, but only if GS *doesn't* also want to set any strings on industry window or news
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