IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-15
00:04:17 *** TWerkhoven has quit IRC
00:07:05 * Belugas cannot tell, not watching weeds
00:07:24 * Belugas watches Walking deads and Vampire Diaries
00:07:30 <Mazur> Eddi|zuHause, by some guys locked inside a room with a sackful of hash and a fridge and closet full of food for when they get hte munchies.
00:07:33 <Belugas> and Merlin, and Fringes
00:07:48 * Mazur never followed Weeds.
00:08:02 <Mazur> Saw a few episodes, decided it was not worth the time.
00:09:05 <supermop_> i think eddi was askig how to spell 'eighth'
00:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> weeds was on its height around the 3rd and 4th season, kinda degraded afterwards
00:09:10 <Mazur> NCIS, NCIS LA, Journeyman, HIGNFY, QI, The Big Bang Theory.
00:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and i watch way too many series
00:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> lately i haven't been able to catch up over the week
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00:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and yes, i was asking about the spelling of "9th"
00:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "8th"
00:11:10 <Mazur> Ninth.
00:11:21 <Mazur> No "e".
00:11:28 <Mazur> Eighth.
00:11:38 <Mazur> Eght plus an 'h'.
00:11:56 <Mazur> Or Eight plus an 'h', alternatively.
00:12:30 <supermop_> off for dinner, later
00:12:30 <Mazur> Depengin on whether you want to make a typo with the i or not.
00:12:34 <Mazur> ENjoy/
00:25:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23226 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (r23219): If you find a file, also use it.
00:26:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23227 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (r23219): The FileScanner should also consider the old directories.
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01:00:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but "eight" + "h" doesn't make any sense
01:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "th" is one letter, so it must be "eight" "remove t" "add th"
01:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not how you speak it
01:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (or i also speak it wrong)
01:02:37 <supermop_> english doesn't really have rules that make sense
01:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> obviously. because it would be german then...
01:03:49 <supermop_> english is the post modern german
01:06:26 <supermop_> does anyone here do much photo or video work?
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02:56:33 <DabuYu> supermop_: i do some, what's the question
03:06:48 <supermop_> looking for a decent LCD
03:06:58 <supermop_> no room for a crt in my apartment
03:07:22 <DabuYu> ah - i must admit i don't have a specific LCD for that purpose
03:07:49 <DabuYu> but if you get one, for good photo and video display color calibration is recommended
03:08:50 <DabuYu> like this:
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03:09:45 <DabuYu> i've always worked with personal adjustments based on B/W and color charts
03:10:03 <DabuYu> but such product will definitely get better results
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03:10:51 <DabuYu> and, based on personal preference, an screen with a coating will make the color better, but it reflects terribly.
03:11:31 <DabuYu> *preference = experience - my preference now therefore is one without a coating :)
03:11:40 <supermop_> i'd rather have it look true than good
03:11:55 <supermop_> if it saves be an extra round of printing proofs
03:12:11 <DabuYu> with calibration you get closest to truth
03:12:23 <DabuYu> but you always have lcd -> printer conversion
03:12:58 <DabuYu> lcd = (s)RGB color space, printer uses something different (depends on printer, often cmyk)
03:13:52 <DabuYu> and that conversion often happens within the printer itself - even if the lcd displays correct, the printer might still change it to the worse
03:20:36 <supermop_> yeah
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04:11:04 <z-MaTRiX> hey-ho
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06:08:36 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the what problem? It actually might have fixed that though
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07:08:35 <appe> morning, gentlemen.
07:16:39 <andythenorth> moin
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07:41:50 <Celestar> \o
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07:51:25 * andythenorth wonders if it's worth fixing the tram offsets in ottd
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08:14:14 <Celestar> if there's a bug, it's worth fixing
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08:26:18 <andythenorth> trams travelling along / axis are some pixels too high in one direction and some pixels to low in the other
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08:26:30 <andythenorth> it's not a newgrf offset thing...
08:26:41 <andythenorth> could be the track graphics that are wrong rather than the vehicle path
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08:57:51 <Celestar> do we have some auto_ptr like class?
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09:05:53 <peter1138> probably, auto_ptr is deprecated isn't it?
09:07:19 <Celestar> in C++11 yeah
09:07:50 <Celestar> it'S unique_ptr now
09:11:43 <Celestar> there is a new "auto" 'datatype'
09:14:16 <TinoDidriksen> auto_ptr should be avoided. shared_ptr or unique_ptr are vastly better. Just use Boost?
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09:37:45 * Celestar tries to remember what the drawbacks of auto_ptr were
09:39:27 <peter1138> iirc we used it for something and it caused problems
09:39:32 <peter1138> but i can't where or what
09:39:36 <peter1138> *remember
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10:21:49 <peter1138> oh my god marten how could you
10:22:16 <Celestar> ?
10:24:13 <MNIM> Questionable Content.
10:24:35 <MNIM> Yes, martin, how could you?
10:24:44 <MNIM> he forgot to throw pintsize out.
10:24:57 <MNIM> great. Now we'll have videos ALL over the net.
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10:30:11 <planetmaker> hehe
10:30:15 <planetmaker> bloody Pintsize
10:30:48 <planetmaker> I wonder though what Marigold's antropopc will then do with him ;-)
10:31:10 <appe> what's pintzine?
10:31:13 <appe> size*
10:31:25 <planetmaker> appe, you need to read "Questionable Content"
10:31:28 <planetmaker> It's a robot
10:31:29 <MNIM> hmmmh, planetmaker, should we link that here?
10:32:37 <planetmaker>
10:32:49 <planetmaker> ^^ appe
10:33:17 <planetmaker> the newer comics are much nicer drawn, though
10:36:38 <appe> haha
10:36:41 <appe> neat
10:37:49 <planetmaker> MNIM, it might sometimes be "questionable content" by some hypocritical moral standards. But not by mine ;-)
10:38:03 <MNIM> True. :P
10:38:11 <MNIM> but that wasn't my only concern
10:38:51 <MNIM> I mean, that comic is pretty long, what're we at right now? more than 2000 comics. We don't want to distract our devs that long.
10:39:05 <Celestar>
10:39:06 <planetmaker> can't distract me. I read them all :-P
10:39:15 <Celestar> outsourced marketing to Bulgaria, haven'T they?
10:39:17 <MNIM> me too. :P
10:39:57 <planetmaker> hehe, Celestar
10:39:58 <appe> 9gag <3.
10:40:02 <planetmaker> enjoy :-P
10:40:24 <planetmaker> (that add is more questionable than that comic :-P )
10:41:09 <MNIM> hahaha
10:42:08 <MNIM> I don't envy the person who needs to have work done and gets distracted by finding it for the first time, though
10:42:34 <Celestar> planetmaker: that's just sad ...
10:49:35 <Celestar> .....
10:49:49 <Celestar> those end-to-end testers are driving me nuts.
10:49:56 <Noldo> who?
10:50:06 <Celestar> I don't need uber-nerds as testers. But they should have a rudimentary set of skills.
10:50:23 <Celestar> for example: Literacy would be of great help.
10:50:40 <Noldo> but reading instructions is practically cheating
10:50:56 <Noldo> you get unfair advantage compared to people who don't
10:51:00 <Celestar> I'm not talking about instructions.
10:51:12 <Celestar> I'm talking about reading the big: "ERROR: <message>"
10:51:23 <Noldo> works for that too
10:51:29 <Celestar> "I cannot see the reason for the error"
10:51:35 <Celestar> it's THERE.
10:51:41 <Celestar> IN BIG LETTERS. ON YOUR SCREEN.
10:52:30 <Celestar> reminds me of "kein Ostdeutsch" for the Germans among us :D
10:53:47 <planetmaker> Celestar, I answered the other day a complaint about FIRS. "It issues error E00"
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10:54:22 <planetmaker> Well. If he had continued to read, The next words in that error message are "You need OpenTTD 1.2.0 / trunk r22xyz or newer"
10:54:24 <planetmaker> oh well
10:54:30 <planetmaker> He was using 1.1.3
10:54:54 <planetmaker> that's how people are. Read until the first "dang!" and then act like hypnotized rabbits
10:56:12 <planetmaker> It also made me wonder: why do we put any text in the error message?
10:56:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker:
10:56:20 <andythenorth>
10:56:32 <andythenorth> "At the same time, there is evidence to suggest that people do not necessarily exhibit self-serving bias with respect to computer technologies. When they fail to achieve a desirable outcome when using a computer they often blame themselves, not the technology"
10:56:48 <andythenorth> hmm
10:57:00 <planetmaker>
10:57:22 <Celestar> planetmaker: just write "ASSHAT!" and be done with it
10:57:23 <Noldo> "I'm bad with computers"
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10:58:17 <planetmaker> nah, we wanna remain polite :-)
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10:58:47 <Celestar> what is FIRS in the first place? :P
10:58:50 <Celestar> !FIRS
10:58:58 <andythenorth> !FIRS
10:59:02 <andythenorth> rm -r FIRS
10:59:10 <Celestar> 141 pages O_o
11:00:02 <planetmaker> and
11:00:21 <planetmaker> pew. Lucky me, I have a backup
11:00:34 <planetmaker> actually two backups ;-)
11:02:26 <planetmaker> Celestar, it's the industry set for those who're bored of default industries and want something more expansive. But who don't want to care in great detail about strong inter-dependency wrt production levels to depend on concurrent delivery of N > 1 cargos
11:02:30 <peter1138> planetmaker, yeah, i read through all of QC when it was up to the 600s i think
11:06:08 <appe> uhm
11:06:25 <peter1138> hmm?
11:06:26 <appe> gives me some wierd translations
11:06:43 <planetmaker> in what way?
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11:06:52 <appe> the headlines are translated, and nothing else is.
11:06:56 <__ln___> appe: spelled w-e-i-r-d
11:06:56 * andythenorth tries to summarise FIRS
11:06:58 <andythenorth> fails
11:07:01 <appe> __ln___: ah, sorry.
11:07:09 <planetmaker> hehe, andythenorth :-)
11:07:21 <planetmaker> But that'd be a good exercise, writing a comprehensive readme file for FIRS
11:07:33 <planetmaker> It even became much longer than I anticipated for OpenGFX+ Trains
11:07:53 <planetmaker> And that's nearly only default vehicles and a few modified wagons. Well. Or a bit more :-)
11:07:55 <Celestar> planetmaker: seems like I gotta try it
11:08:01 <peter1138> andythenorth, btw, 0x40 & 0x41 are provisional, just for testing it ;p
11:08:14 <planetmaker> Celestar, definitely ;-)
11:08:18 <andythenorth> my proposal is also provisional :)
11:08:24 <andythenorth> I just needed to move it on a bit
11:08:47 <Celestar> planetmaker: and in some years, use that with destinations :P
11:08:50 <peter1138> i think it was suggested to use 0x80/0x81 to leave more room for type-specific properties
11:09:06 <planetmaker> Celestar, we played it with yacd
11:09:09 <planetmaker> it's awesome
11:09:14 <planetmaker> and not that easy
11:09:49 <peter1138> i wanna play EZ/YACD/YAIM/YAMA
11:09:50 <planetmaker> partly also as yacd would need to supply a mechanism to be disabled for certain cargos or so
11:09:53 <peter1138> hmm
11:09:57 <peter1138> i wanna play YAEZ/YACD/YAIM/YAMA
11:09:58 <peter1138> yes
11:09:59 <planetmaker> yama?
11:10:07 <peter1138> yet another map array
11:10:10 <planetmaker> ah :-)
11:10:27 * andythenorth wants to play YACS
11:10:29 <planetmaker> Well, peter1138, start or continue with item 1 ;-)
11:10:42 * planetmaker quickly hides
11:11:16 * andythenorth wants to play YASS
11:11:31 <andythenorth> Yet Another Ship Smoke
11:12:46 <planetmaker> :-P
11:12:51 <peter1138> question
11:12:51 <Noldo> what are the others?
11:13:08 <Noldo> cargo destinations,
11:13:12 <peter1138> the exist smoke things give a position for the smoke
11:13:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you could start by providing a _good_ spec
11:13:15 <peter1138> is that really necessary?
11:13:20 <peter1138> can't it be done with sprite offsets?
11:13:44 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the spec became an unwinnable problem :(
11:13:45 <planetmaker> smoke is not newgrf-able iirc
11:13:48 <andythenorth> I provided a spec
11:13:50 <andythenorth> of sorts
11:14:03 <peter1138> hmm, right, that's the problem, yes
11:14:05 <andythenorth> but then I was told that I hadn't considered the need for full newgrf control of effect vehicles :(
11:14:15 <planetmaker> so, is there a FS issue about it. And with them?
11:14:23 * andythenorth will look
11:14:42 <planetmaker> otherwise every thought has to be re-thought again and again and again
11:14:53 <andythenorth> we concluded that we couldn't do it because it might block the future addition of newgrf effect vehicles
11:14:59 <andythenorth> so we had to spec that
11:15:02 * andythenorth rummages
11:15:14 * andythenorth doesn't care about newgrf effect vehicles, but others might
11:15:17 <planetmaker> goal scripts might drive them :-P
11:15:24 <peter1138> goal scripts?
11:15:25 <peter1138> o_O
11:15:33 <planetmaker> peter1138, would make sense, not?
11:15:44 <planetmaker> Like a goal script having a submarine, heli or ufo appear?
11:15:48 <andythenorth>
11:15:49 <peter1138> oh right
11:15:52 <peter1138> that sort of effect :S
11:16:07 <peter1138> and then there's the chimney smoke effect
11:16:07 <planetmaker> though... that's disaster vehicles. So maybe I'm wrong
11:16:15 <planetmaker> that's different and I might have been confused
11:16:28 <peter1138> hmm
11:16:30 <peter1138> yes
11:16:44 <andythenorth> < spec of sorts (via mr. frosch), also pictures and crap
11:16:46 <peter1138> BreakdownSMoke vehicle
11:16:47 <peter1138> o_O
11:16:53 <andythenorth> nearly one year old :P
11:17:12 <peter1138> they're all specially hard coded
11:17:13 <peter1138> hmm
11:17:14 <andythenorth> in that year nobody has ever said 'omg, I really need to provide different sparks for electric vehicles'
11:17:54 <peter1138> what effects do you need for ships? steam & diesel smoke? :p
11:18:01 <andythenorth> yup
11:18:08 <peter1138> so that doesn't need new sprites
11:18:09 <andythenorth> they're available, they're just not in the right place
11:18:16 <andythenorth> I need x, y, z control
11:18:17 <peter1138> but does need a way to define the position
11:18:19 <peter1138> yes
11:18:27 <andythenorth> I need to be able to have n (some ships have > 1 funnel)
11:18:40 <andythenorth> and the triggers on acceleration might need adjusting
11:18:52 <peter1138> they always accelerate
11:18:54 <andythenorth> currently ships smoke only briefly :)
11:19:05 <peter1138> they smoke at all?
11:19:10 <andythenorth> occasionally
11:19:13 <peter1138> hmm
11:19:15 <peter1138> ok
11:19:20 <peter1138> never noticed
11:19:42 <andythenorth> FISH ones smoke
11:19:46 <andythenorth> default ones don't
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11:27:17 <planetmaker> Noldo, the 3rd one is infrastructure maintenance
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11:32:26 <TGYoshi> Since you guys are so ultra-great in math (maybe) you probably know a line equation for this graph:
11:34:40 <planetmaker> TGYoshi, something like sin(x) - x
11:34:58 <Celestar> yeah.
11:34:59 <TGYoshi> Nice idea
11:35:18 <Celestar> only the 45° sound wrong, don't they with sin(x) -x ?
11:35:36 * Celestar fires up gnuplot
11:35:41 <Noldo>
11:35:48 <TGYoshi> Cool, it seems to work
11:35:52 <TGYoshi> thanks for now
11:36:03 <TGYoshi> I guess I can figure the rest out
11:36:09 <planetmaker> probably a cosine, though ;-)
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11:36:25 <Celestar> depends :P
11:37:39 <planetmaker> doesn't really matter ;-)
11:37:59 <planetmaker> cos(x) = sin(x+pi/2)
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11:38:43 <Celestar> well
11:38:51 <Celestar> the "graph" somehow misses an origin :P
11:38:54 <Celestar> so it's hard to say :D
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11:39:08 <planetmaker> if you don't interpret the | and - as axis: yes
11:39:34 <TGYoshi> mm
11:40:06 <TGYoshi> The origin doesnt matter
11:40:09 <TGYoshi> Its about the shape :P
11:40:15 <Noldo> what are you using it for?
11:40:32 <Celestar> oooh
11:40:35 <Celestar> there is a scale
11:40:37 <Celestar> 1 and 3
11:41:07 <TGYoshi> Such a shape for another shape
11:41:22 <TGYoshi> The top of a 3d object got that shape
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11:54:05 <TGYoshi> I guess the derivative of sin(x/2)-x/2 is cos(x/2)-1, isnt it?
11:54:45 <planetmaker> no
11:54:59 <planetmaker> 0.5 cos(x/2) - 0.5
11:54:59 <TGYoshi>
11:54:59 <TGYoshi> gy=1&igl=1&igs=0&iax=1&ila=1&xmin=-15.919013330035359&xmax=12.416282533455792&ymin=-6.840751636862924&ymax=9.102743030313068
11:55:00 <TGYoshi> lol
11:55:22 <TGYoshi> aha
11:55:45 <TGYoshi> Why that for the sin -> cos part?
11:56:36 <Celestar> hm?
11:56:41 <planetmaker> [sin(a*x)]' = sin'(a*x) * [a*x]'
11:56:57 <planetmaker> chain rule for derivatives
11:57:19 <Celestar> d/dx [a(b(x))] = d/dx [a(b(x)] + d/dx b(x)
11:57:22 <Celestar> wtb [Tex]
11:57:27 <planetmaker> :-)
11:57:46 <Noldo> I put a function in your fuction so you can...
11:58:28 <TGYoshi> Oh, of course, got it. Thanks :3
11:59:19 <Celestar> and erm
11:59:22 <Celestar> s/+/*
11:59:58 * andythenorth writes a fuction
12:03:32 <peter1138> i once had link to a full-window browser-javascript-based graphing thing
12:03:37 <peter1138> i can't remember it :(
12:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i must be in the wrong channel...
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12:07:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why?
12:07:06 <andythenorth> no never-ending discussion?
12:07:28 <TGYoshi> We can start another discussion about 0/0 if you prefer
12:09:06 <TGYoshi> Anyway, Im off to school ... [a]
12:14:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23228 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix (r23227): FileScanner::Scan() still did not scan all required directories for basesets.
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12:29:26 <Celestar> bah
12:29:32 * Celestar thinks he's getting ill
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12:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> "Schönheit (denn gesund wirst du von allein)" :p
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12:58:45 <peter1138> i've got a bug report, fast forward isn't very fast with lots of ais!!!!
12:59:08 <andythenorth> buy a bigger box :P
12:59:22 <andythenorth> are the AIs MP aware?
12:59:35 * andythenorth can guess the answer
13:01:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: i don't think ais team up against the humans in mp
13:01:50 <andythenorth> I should have said multi-threaded :P
13:02:06 <planetmaker> they aren't
13:02:24 <andythenorth> I win my bet
13:02:36 <planetmaker> good. Here's a hazelnut
13:02:42 <planetmaker> Other prices are currently out ;-)
13:06:15 <andythenorth> thanks
13:06:27 <andythenorth> where's Eddi|zuHause when I need him? :)
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13:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> eating
13:21:49 <andythenorth> :)
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14:36:46 <Belugas> hello
14:48:16 <peter1138> hi
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14:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so what's the emergency?
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15:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... cost... with lack of comprehensive lists of real costs, maybe: purchase cost based on engine type and weight, running costs based on power and top speed?
15:14:57 <TWerkhoven> sounds sensible
15:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> how often is the running cost callback called?
15:21:22 <planetmaker> start/stop. Depot and railtype probably
15:21:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pikka has a really nice blog post about how he calculates costs
15:21:49 <Eddi|zuHause> link?
15:22:08 * andythenorth looks
15:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm fairly sure it's more often than that
15:22:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this, and some related posts on his blog:
15:23:23 <frosch123> running cost callback is called constantly
15:23:55 <andythenorth>
15:23:57 <frosch123> once per day for a vehicle iirc
15:24:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for FISH I have costs from a spreadsheet, sounds complicated, but isn't really
15:24:56 <andythenorth> I use things like number of crew, weight, type of fuel for running costs
15:25:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the whole CETS is from a single spreadsheet ;-)
15:25:15 <planetmaker> every single frigging property :-P
15:25:19 <andythenorth> with multipliers for insane things like hovercraft powered by gas turbines
15:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: now i need persistent storage of the motion counter to determine the amount of tiles moved between two calls
15:25:43 <peter1138> CETS looks nice
15:25:52 <peter1138> can't wait for it to be playable :)
15:25:54 * andythenorth needs a new trainset
15:26:09 <andythenorth> canset?
15:26:11 <andythenorth> no canset :P
15:26:13 <peter1138> lol
15:26:25 <peter1138> you scuppered that one
15:26:29 <andythenorth> all my fault
15:26:30 <andythenorth> me
15:26:32 <andythenorth> I did it
15:26:38 <peter1138> yup, all your fault
15:26:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you know that I take your comment about me in canset thread as a compliment?
15:26:48 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: don't you think you overcomplicate stuff?
15:27:01 <andythenorth> what else is stuff for, if not over-complicating :P
15:27:15 <frosch123> the driver is paid on time, and not of distance traveled
15:27:19 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: my idea is that rather than running cost per year, i'd have running cost per tile
15:27:33 <planetmaker> ehm... why *that*?
15:27:38 <planetmaker> Do it per day and by velocity
15:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. fuel costs
15:27:40 <planetmaker> it's equivalent
15:27:41 <andythenorth> related to distance travel
15:27:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you should also check slope
15:28:14 <andythenorth> I think pikka checks whether the vehicle is accelerating (there's a var for that?)
15:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: afair pikka's scheme fails when the max speed of the track is lower than the max speed of the engine
15:29:02 <andythenorth> oh, so he checks speed against maximum?
15:29:09 <andythenorth> and assumes acceleration otherwise
15:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: pikkas post doesn't contain any technical information, though
15:30:40 <frosch123> pikka checks speed for != 0
15:31:07 <andythenorth> pikka says " Incidentally, the technical specs and subroutines for the variable running costs in NARS are available if anyone wants to use them in their own sets."
15:31:12 <frosch123> 0 for stopped, FAIL for running (i.e. propertY)
15:31:43 <andythenorth> does the game actually know the power output of the vehicle at this point?
15:31:55 <andythenorth> the physics does, in some sense
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15:34:00 <frosch123> ttd physics assume constant power output
15:34:11 <frosch123> only limited by te, but independent of speed
15:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> so what speed is 1 tile per day?
15:35:46 <peter1138> 1 tile per day
15:36:11 <peter1138> 16 subunits
15:36:17 <peter1138> 74 ticks?
15:36:42 <peter1138> iirc, 1 subunit / tick = 60 mph
15:36:43 <frosch123> maybe 16 mph is one tile per day
15:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> blatant use of half-knowledge, if grf-speed-units = added to subspeed, advance 1 unit every time it overflows
15:37:54 <frosch123> @calc 16*256 / 74
15:37:54 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 55.3513513514
15:37:59 <Terkhen> hello
15:38:04 <frosch123> would match about 60
15:38:20 <Eddi|zuHause> then every 74 ticks you must move 16*256=4096 "subspeed" units in 74 ticks
15:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> err... whatever
15:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 55km/h-ish?
15:38:46 <peter1138> hmm, sorry, what was the real question? :S
15:38:55 * andythenorth gets lost trying to do physics
15:39:19 <frosch123> yeah, km/h-ish, not mph
15:39:19 <andythenorth> running cost directly proportional to fuel consumption?
15:39:26 <andythenorth> maybe not
15:39:31 <peter1138> yeah
15:39:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no, wait, a train advances twice per tick
15:39:43 * andythenorth will go back to making email newsletters :P
15:40:02 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 16*256 / 74/2
15:40:02 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 27.6756756757
15:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, looks like 55km/h equals around 2 tiles per day
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15:55:33 <peter1138> vehicle movement code is confusing
15:55:39 <peter1138> speed * 3 / 4?
15:56:20 <peter1138> i just have to keep reminding myself that it's a game and it doesn't need precision
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15:58:43 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: a tile is 668.(216) km, so 668.(216)/24 km/h
15:59:20 <peter1138> :D
15:59:26 <Rubidium> hmm, sorry... mixing up numbers ;) 664.(216) km-ish or 668 km
15:59:47 <Rubidium> quite simple math though
16:00:05 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 668/24
16:00:05 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 27.8333333333
16:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so an ingame day has 27h? :)
16:00:42 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, no, misread you
16:00:48 <Rubidium> no
16:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 664.216/24
16:01:16 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 27.6756666667
16:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 664.216216/24
16:01:33 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 27.6756756667
16:01:39 * andythenorth ponders running cost using consist weight as a factor
16:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so yes, that's around the same value
16:01:58 <andythenorth> also...rolling resistance of vehicles :P
16:02:12 <Rubidium> <- for the more thorough definition ;)
16:02:16 <andythenorth> also, requirement for brakemen, drivers mates, etc
16:02:30 <andythenorth> also man with red flag walking in front of vehicle
16:03:03 <andythenorth>
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16:29:44 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Unless I calculated it totally wrong for YACD, 128 km/h-ish means 1 tick / lu
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16:31:21 <TomyLobo> hi
16:31:30 <TomyLobo> is there an alternate graphics set for toyland?
16:31:47 <TomyLobo> the default one in opengfx is kinda crappy
16:33:47 <SpComb> yes, there's the temperate, desert and arctic ones
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16:34:22 <TomyLobo> but i've played them all
16:34:33 <TomyLobo> i want to play with toyland's industry chains, vehicles etc
16:37:55 <andythenorth> meh
16:37:56 <andythenorth> toyland
16:38:14 <TomyLobo> but especially the empty terrain is confusing and eyecancery
16:39:40 <frosch123> then you never played with the original toyland :p
16:40:15 <planetmaker> toyland2mars conversion ;-)
16:40:31 <frosch123> <- ogfx is so much better than that
16:40:45 <TomyLobo> planetmaker hehe nah
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16:41:15 <TomyLobo> frosch123 woah you're right
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16:50:46 <Terkhen> yes, ogfx is actually the good one
16:50:55 <Terkhen> if you don't like it, the only other option is probably toyland2mars
16:53:07 <TomyLobo> but that gives me temperate vehicles and industries
16:54:57 <TomyLobo> ages ago, i've seen a graph with all the industries in a climate. i think it was on the wiki, but i cant find it anymore
16:56:10 <planetmaker> TomyLobo: additionally then use ogfx+trains with the right parameters, if you like toyland trains
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16:58:24 <TGYoshi> Err, playing in toyland?
16:58:29 <TGYoshi> Why does it even exist..
16:59:45 <TomyLobo> found it \o/
17:00:57 <planetmaker> TGYoshi: because it's a nice and unique climate
17:01:37 <TGYoshi> Yay...
17:01:45 <TGYoshi> Its what you call nice ;)
17:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well... if that crazy NUTS were to get off the ground, it could be a nice toyland set
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17:54:52 <planetmaker> what's in newgrf the result of an actionD which divides a/a for a == 0?
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17:59:36 <frosch123> if the specs say nothing, then it is undefined
18:00:05 <planetmaker> I didn't find anything
18:00:54 <glx> and what does the code say ?
18:01:05 <frosch123> looks like both ottd and ttdp return a for a/0
18:01:10 <planetmaker> I didn't yet look, glx ;-)
18:01:40 <frosch123> grfact.asm:3301
18:01:52 <frosch123> newgrf.cpp:6486
18:01:53 <planetmaker> so 0/0 = 0
18:02:00 <frosch123> yes
18:02:15 <planetmaker> and 2/2 = 1
18:02:28 <planetmaker> so a/a is basically a test of a != 0
18:02:45 <frosch123> yeah :p
18:02:50 <frosch123> who uses it like that? :p
18:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd be crazy to rely on that
18:03:00 <planetmaker> I think NML does:
18:03:43 <planetmaker> I try to understand why not all parameter to swedish rails work like they should. But I fail to see a fault in my code there, so I thought to look at NFO level
18:04:00 <planetmaker> (line 10 in the paste)
18:04:34 <frosch123> why are you not using grf2html for that?
18:04:48 <planetmaker> good question :-)
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18:05:24 <planetmaker> I probably should install it :-)
18:05:45 <planetmaker> or rather make it known in the path
18:08:50 <planetmaker> errm...
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18:45:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23229 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt:
18:45:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
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18:48:43 <TomyLobo> do power stations ever disappear?
18:49:03 <planetmaker> default: no
18:49:06 <z-MaTRiX> hi
18:49:07 <z-MaTRiX> :)
18:49:12 <planetmaker> newgrf: depends
18:49:15 <TomyLobo> is it a config option?
18:49:17 <TomyLobo> ah
18:49:28 <z-MaTRiX> what is your opinion of an 64MB ati 9000 agp card?
18:49:37 <z-MaTRiX> (under linux)
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19:18:52 * andythenorth ponders what to do
19:19:54 <z-MaTRiX> andythenorth<< play openttd? :)
19:20:02 <andythenorth> nah
19:20:04 <andythenorth> hmm
19:20:10 <andythenorth> peter1138 wanted a network game of something
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19:28:47 <appe> hm
19:29:06 <appe> i cant seem to find a grf containing antonov 225.
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19:31:15 <planetmaker> search the russian forums
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19:35:48 * andythenorth does work
19:36:02 <andythenorth> why are the tram offsets wrong? I guess I should read the code :P
19:40:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23230 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Codechange: stupid casing for UnPause. It's a single word, not two words "CamelCased" after eachother
19:41:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: either your sprite offsets are wrong, or tram rails are misaligned
19:41:48 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: could be either
19:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in theory, road vehicles and trams should have the exact same alignment
19:42:06 <andythenorth> let me screenshot
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19:44:39 <MNIM> Appe: I thought av8 had one?
19:45:13 <MNIM> or was that the 124?
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19:46:18 <appe> not what i can see
19:47:47 <peter1138> andythenorth, yes, YAIM/YAEZ/YACD/YAMA :D
19:48:00 <andythenorth> peter1138: and YACS :P
19:48:16 <peter1138> wouldn't have be a grf set?
19:48:28 <andythenorth> he
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19:50:07 <andythenorth> so I need to build some patches and crap
19:51:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause:
19:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what if you let that same vehicle drive on roads?
19:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and compare it with trucks?
19:53:47 * andythenorth tries
19:53:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23231 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] Make train var 0xF3 consistent with TTDPatch.
19:56:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: inconclusive
19:57:03 <andythenorth>
19:57:13 <andythenorth> the correct answer could be 'my tram is drawn too narrow'
19:57:16 <andythenorth> :|
19:57:55 <MNIM> Well, it looks to me like the tram going down is offset too low
19:58:19 <andythenorth> yes, it obscures the rail
19:58:25 <andythenorth> and the one going up is too high
20:04:39 <andythenorth> peter1138: where's YAEZ? And YAMA?
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20:12:07 <peter1138> pass ;)
20:12:27 <andythenorth> meh :D
20:12:44 <peter1138> andythenorth, fix your sprite offsets ;)
20:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you make the tram narrower, of course you have to compensate the offsets
20:13:52 <andythenorth> bah
20:14:04 <andythenorth> now I can't just reuse angles :P
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20:17:50 <peter1138> :)
20:18:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but the truck doesn't seem to have correct offsets either
20:18:24 <andythenorth> where's the code that lets me set different offset according to drive side?
20:18:30 <andythenorth> is there a varact 2 for that?
20:18:32 * andythenorth looks
20:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that should be one of the TTDPatch flags
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20:19:35 * andythenorth looks
20:20:51 <andythenorth> hmm
20:21:06 <andythenorth> wiki doesn't know about a var I can check for 'drive side' - only a string
20:22:22 <MNIM> D:
20:22:23 <andythenorth> with drive on right - offsets look ok
20:22:23 <MNIM> wat de
20:22:36 <MNIM> ottd just crashed on me
20:22:38 <andythenorth> so I need to write custom real sprites with different offsets for drive on left
20:22:43 <andythenorth> and use action 7 or so
20:22:56 <andythenorth> or...
20:23:09 <planetmaker> <-- VarAction2 06
20:23:13 <MNIM> hmmmh.
20:23:16 <MNIM> again
20:23:22 <planetmaker> or action7 86
20:23:22 * MNIM blames the newgrfs
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20:29:01 <andythenorth> planetmaker: thanks
20:30:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23232 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Change: move the "default" overrides out of the baseset in order to ensure they all use the same values
20:31:58 <andythenorth> is adjusting the offsets in the newgrf the correct solution?
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20:47:55 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23233 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Refactor maximum and actually transported cargo amount of towns into a reusable struct.
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21:06:03 * andythenorth ponders why RV offsets are treated differently for RHS and LHS drive
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21:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it's to do with the bounding box. the center of the bounding box is not the anchor point of the sprite
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21:07:09 * andythenorth reads code
21:07:12 <Eddi|zuHause> if it were, the offsets would be the same
21:07:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but the anchor point is the back (invisible) corner of the bounding box, so if you make the vehicle narrower than the bounding box, you must adjust the offset
21:08:28 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i already told that that is not the case for vehicles
21:08:56 <frosch123> the anchor point for vehicle sprites is indeed the center of vehicle (on ground)
21:10:47 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: then why is the anchor point different for the / view depending on the travel direction?
21:11:07 <frosch123> for trains it is 4/8 from the front of the vehicle
21:11:13 <andythenorth> I don't mind if the answer is 'code custom offsets in the grf'
21:11:14 <frosch123> independent of vehicle length
21:11:21 <andythenorth> ^^ just seems a bit odd
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21:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and coincidentally that difference matches exactly the offset between the corners of the bounding box
21:11:41 <frosch123> though that might change when fs#???? gets fixed
21:11:52 <frosch123> which we should imo do, before grfs start to rely on that bug :p
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21:12:37 <LordAro> evening
21:12:44 <andythenorth> hi LordAro
21:13:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean fs#3569?
21:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> this has nothing to do with that
21:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what you mean is the position of the vehicle on the map
21:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that is indeed the center of the bounding box
21:13:59 <frosch123> UpdateDeltaXY defines the offset between the bounding box back corner, and the vehicle position
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21:14:42 <frosch123> hmm, ok, that way...
21:14:48 <frosch123> yeah, you might be right then
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21:19:39 <andythenorth> so it's not an easy thing to transform according to drive side?
21:19:51 <andythenorth> I have to check and adjust each vehicle?
21:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it should be the same for all vehicles
21:20:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: as long as they are drawn to the same width scale
21:20:26 <andythenorth> so ott could do the transform?
21:20:32 <andythenorth> oh
21:20:34 <andythenorth> no then
21:21:19 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: all this offset and length mess might be a good thing for grfv8
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21:23:15 * andythenorth contemplates disabling HEQS if drive side is 'left'
21:23:21 <andythenorth> but that's rather an odd idea
21:24:24 <planetmaker> :-P
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21:25:15 <frosch123> would have expected the reverse behaviour from andy
21:25:32 <andythenorth> in my test (so far) the issue only shows up for LH drive
21:25:37 <andythenorth> I haven't tested all angles
21:25:50 <andythenorth> now I've noticed it, it's bugging me :P
21:25:53 <andythenorth> most people won't care
21:26:12 <frosch123> most people drive on the right anyway
21:26:35 <andythenorth> changing drive side in my game - explains why I've more than once gone through HEQS and tweaked all offsets, thinking 'how did I get it so wrong?'
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21:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there has been some remote island that switched from right to left
21:29:07 <LordAro> frosch123: most people drive on the wrong side of the road ;)
21:29:36 * Belugas drives at the center of the road
21:29:54 <frosch123> well, it's generally best to drive on that side of the road, which the other cars driving in your direction choose
21:30:12 <planetmaker> not that easy though ;-)
21:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally people fail at that
21:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but it appears only germans actually have a word for that :p
21:32:35 <planetmaker> oh, it was quite weired when I turned right from a one-way road and wondered why on the next traffic lights all cars were facing the direction towards me... until I noticed that I better and quickly drive two lanes further left ;-)
21:33:15 <andythenorth> hmm
21:33:16 <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
21:33:28 <andythenorth> none if this will get my email newsletter written :P
21:34:04 <Eddi|zuHause>
21:34:17 * andythenorth wants to do a good day's work, and is running out of day to do it with
21:34:45 <Terkhen> doing nothing can also be very satisfying when done sparingly :P
21:35:38 <planetmaker> you should quote links with http:// , Eddi|zuHause
21:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> only if your url parser is stupid
21:36:28 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: did czech drive on left before ww2?
21:36:41 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: whole of (former) austria drove on left
21:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the germans tried to "clean up" that mess
21:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> they didn't quite finish the job with austrian railways. up to now, in some regions in austria trains drive on the left
21:40:20 <frosch123> hmm, according to wiki, it was "left" everywhere, before napolean messed it up
21:40:50 <frosch123> though it does not mention the reasoning of napoleon
21:40:51 <Terkhen> yes, it is a stupid mess that acomplishes nothing
21:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> in france, trains also drive on the left
21:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> except in alsace
21:42:38 <glx> and metro drive on the right so trains can't use the network IIRC
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21:57:15 <andythenorth> I should raise a fs ticket about offsets and drive side? Or it's an issue for HEQS?
21:59:30 <Rubidium> I'd argue the offsets are the same as in TTDPatch, so they match the specs
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21:59:44 <Rubidium> even though one might argue the specs are wrong on that point
22:00:23 <andythenorth> I can make it a HEQS issue
22:00:25 <Rubidium> however, changing those specs without breaking older NewGRFs is (IMO) way too much work, which is basically why FS#3569 is still not fixed (and probably won't be fixed)
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22:00:50 <andythenorth> nml could fix it?
22:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no
22:01:55 <andythenorth> no way to write every real sprite twice, with a transform on the offsets?
22:01:57 <andythenorth> then branch?
22:02:17 <andythenorth> according to drive side
22:03:55 <planetmaker> of course you could give different offsets for different variable values
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22:04:04 <planetmaker> but you can do that in nfo, too
22:04:20 <andythenorth> only manually :|
22:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you do that once in your template
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22:05:20 <andythenorth> I'd have to ditch action 3 for cargos
22:05:33 <andythenorth> and do cargo graphics switch on a varact 2 instead
22:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause> why?
22:06:20 <planetmaker> no, why?
22:07:21 <planetmaker> the action3 would link to a lhs / rhs drive switch which has the graphics for that particular cargo
22:07:39 <andythenorth> that's a lot of switches :P
22:07:47 <andythenorth> still, could be templated
22:07:59 <andythenorth> and most of the offsets are defines already
22:08:03 <andythenorth> so it's possible
22:08:23 <andythenorth> if I do this, will you fix ottd in future and screw my grf?
22:08:23 <planetmaker> the switch would be part of the template
22:09:03 <andythenorth> yup
22:09:07 <andythenorth> I can see how to do it
22:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, GRF specs are guaranteed to be backwards compatible
22:09:56 <andythenorth> meh
22:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: except grfv8 for the next ~2 month
22:10:00 <andythenorth> writing code is fun anyway
22:10:48 <andythenorth> I should update the newgrf wiki with information about this
22:11:09 <andythenorth> it's another little piece of live ordnance for newgrf authors
22:13:28 <andythenorth> trip over it and it will explode all over your face :P
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22:17:50 <andythenorth> good night
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22:53:00 <Terkhen> good night
22:55:23 <planetmaker> good night
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23:22:27 <frosch123> night
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