IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-14
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02:14:32 <Mazur> Hah! Succeeded at last! Perfect failsafe 3->2.
02:14:53 <Mazur> Which V will tear to pieces as soon as he sees it, of course.
02:14:56 <Mazur> :-)
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06:38:38 <Terkhen> good morning
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07:30:18 <andythenorth> hola
07:31:40 <planetmaker> moin
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08:22:43 <appe> top o'the morning, lads!
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09:14:32 <peter1138> mornings
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09:14:45 <Celestar> morning
09:17:32 <Celestar> wussup?
09:17:58 <peter1138> hmm
09:18:05 <peter1138> apparently some code i've written has unwritten itself
09:18:15 <peter1138> and the file timestamps have gone back too o_O
09:18:23 <peter1138> i'm guessing i must have imagined writing it
09:19:02 <planetmaker> hello Celestar & peter1138
09:19:22 <Celestar> you dreamt it?
09:19:45 <peter1138> i must have done :(
09:19:52 <peter1138> cos i remember publishing it to the test site too
09:19:54 <peter1138> and...
09:19:54 <peter1138> no
09:20:53 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, hmm, could do that. currently i flag if it's a gui sprite so that they're not scaled
09:21:38 <peter1138> drawing zoomed out sprites is probably slower for the -simple blitters
09:21:41 <peter1138> but who uses them?
09:24:35 <peter1138> if the gui has a zoom level...
09:25:44 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, anyway, doing that is essentially rewriting it :)
09:35:34 <peter1138> newstations, that was rewritten a couple of times :D
09:35:50 <peter1138> stuff under bridges was too, admittedly the final one wasn't by me
09:40:07 <Celestar> heh.
09:40:15 <Celestar> tron did a lot of work there
09:45:03 * Celestar wants to go home
09:45:12 <Celestar> what a slow day
09:48:07 <peter1138> yeah
09:48:13 <peter1138> tron didn't take anything of mine, i don't think
09:48:25 <peter1138> although m6 was my fault :p
09:49:03 <peter1138> he was agonising how to store the state
09:49:17 <peter1138> so i suggested storing it in a new byte temporarily to see how it worked
09:49:38 <peter1138> probably good though
09:49:53 <peter1138> otherwise we'd've ended up with the bits in a different position depending on the tile type
09:50:59 <Celestar> :)
09:51:06 <Celestar> I think so as well.
09:51:43 * Celestar is still pondering the Terraforming System.
09:53:13 <peter1138> good luck :p
09:54:16 <Celestar> rofl
09:58:51 <Celestar> hm.
09:58:56 <Celestar> so how do I install SWTOR? :P
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10:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> * Celestar is still pondering the Terraforming System. <-- i was thinking make "cliffs" a modifier button like "one-way" or "bulldozer"
10:27:54 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: hm.. sounds like an idea.
10:28:10 <Celestar> will have to try that.
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10:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> if button is selected, the "dot" is not put on the tile corner, but slightly offset towards one of the 4 adjacent tiles. and which corner is modified is determined similar to the rail bit during autorail
10:31:09 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: I thought of highliting the corner by the dot and the tile by a "square"
10:31:26 <Celestar> kind of an overlay
10:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds ugly
10:32:49 <Celestar> will see :P
10:34:39 <peter1138> use the tile highlight but transparent
10:34:51 <peter1138> hmm, that might be too subtle
10:35:24 <peter1138> playing at 2x is nice, i have to say
10:35:27 <peter1138> 4x is useles
10:35:28 <peter1138> +s
10:35:51 <Celestar> you use double/quad resolution sprites?
10:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause> automatic upscaling of existing sprites
10:38:26 <peter1138> upscaling of sprites yeah
10:38:31 <peter1138> for 8bpp anyway
10:38:34 <peter1138> didn't bother for 32bpp :p
10:38:46 <peter1138> actually, not true
10:38:55 <peter1138> upscaling of sprites from grfs
10:38:58 <peter1138> not upscaling of sprites from pngs
10:39:48 <Terkhen> bbl
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10:41:40 <Celestar> peter1138: speaking of which, would high-res sprites be theoretically supported?
10:41:46 <peter1138> yes they are
10:41:51 <peter1138> (but not from grfs)
10:42:09 <peter1138>
10:42:27 <Celestar> that looks quad-ish?
10:42:29 <peter1138> the colour's wrong because the sprites are for the 32bpp-ez branch
10:42:33 <peter1138> that's 4x, yes
10:42:39 <Celestar> hm.
10:42:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23211 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: Invalidate build vehicle window when changing the setting for wagon speed limits
10:42:55 <Celestar> any plans for higher-res grfs?
10:42:59 <peter1138> no
10:43:14 <planetmaker> they'd show up, if we supported it
10:43:20 <planetmaker> maybe not too quickly, though
10:43:34 <peter1138> but grf sprites are limited to 64KB
10:44:11 <peter1138> without compression, a basic 4x ground tile is 32KB
10:44:13 <planetmaker> ah, yes. Not within the grf.
10:44:19 <planetmaker> The 32bpp method is fine enough :-)
10:44:22 <peter1138> in anycase, pngs work
10:44:24 <planetmaker> Just tar everything and done
10:44:37 <Celestar> I guess people would be all over it ...
10:44:47 <planetmaker> Celestar: maybe. Maybe not
10:45:57 <planetmaker> Celestar:
10:46:15 <planetmaker> ^^ doesn't look overly promising. And one couldn't make it (32bpp, not EZ) easier actually...
10:46:49 <Celestar> planetmaker: don't get it?
10:47:24 <planetmaker> see the abundant response to "please give us 32bpp sprites, we'll code them"?
10:47:46 <peter1138> lol
10:48:24 <peter1138> maybe the people who'd do a consistent set aren't interested because it's just a patch?
10:48:36 <Celestar> not sure
10:48:39 <planetmaker> peter1138: that request there is not for a patch
10:48:45 <planetmaker> those newgrfs would work in trunk
10:48:46 <peter1138> planetmaker, to be fair, there's no response after zephyris posted his sprites
10:48:53 <planetmaker> peter1138: exactly.
10:49:05 <peter1138> planetmaker, response from yexo i mean
10:49:19 <planetmaker> and zephyris drew those sprites years ago
10:49:25 <peter1138> someone provided sprites, and we did nothing with them
10:49:29 <planetmaker> they're the source of the existing 8bpp opengfx sprites
10:49:42 <planetmaker> eh?
10:50:02 <peter1138> what's the confusion?
10:50:21 <planetmaker> you mean we didn't yet use Zephyris' sprites is the reason for the zero-response otherwise?
10:50:43 <peter1138> no, we didn't yet reply to him posting his sprites
10:51:10 <planetmaker> that's right :-)
10:51:14 <dihedral> hello
10:51:17 <peter1138> o_O
10:51:31 <planetmaker> maybe we should ;-)
10:51:34 <peter1138> exactly
10:51:37 <peter1138> someone™ ;)
10:51:41 <dihedral> lol
10:52:25 <peter1138> anyway
10:52:48 * andythenorth would do a 4x EZ set
10:52:57 <andythenorth> after all, I have batch in photoshop :P
10:53:01 <peter1138> if EZ was in trunk, do we think there'd be any chance someone will make a proper coherent set?
10:53:06 <andythenorth> I would
10:53:23 <peter1138> someone who wasn't interested before because it was just a patch
10:53:33 <andythenorth> open photoshop -> batch [open file, magnify x4, save file]
10:53:35 <andythenorth> :p
10:53:36 <peter1138> (a barely working patch at that)
10:53:41 <peter1138> andythenorth, you suck :p
10:53:42 <andythenorth> hmm
10:53:52 <peter1138> gimp all the way ;)
10:54:04 <andythenorth> why? I've just increased the amount of bandwidth bananas needs, surely that's good?
10:54:05 <planetmaker> now, there's the reply :-P
10:54:12 <andythenorth> gimp sucks
10:54:24 <andythenorth> hmm, I'd probably have to change all my bounding boxes
10:54:25 <peter1138> planetmaker, cool :D
10:54:33 <peter1138> andythenorth, why?
10:54:42 <andythenorth> bigger sprites on the spritesheet?
10:54:58 <planetmaker> err, how does the graphics programme relate to the sprite size?
10:55:15 * andythenorth clearly misunderstands how EZ would be added
10:55:21 <peter1138> planetmaker, interlaced conversations :)
10:55:29 <planetmaker> yeah :-P
10:55:35 <planetmaker> we should add a 3rd layer
10:55:41 <andythenorth> you can't handle interlacing? You're clearly not married
10:55:50 <planetmaker> :-)
10:55:52 <andythenorth> 3rd layer = married with children
10:56:10 <peter1138> Celestar, have you got any cliff sprites yet?
10:56:23 <planetmaker> iirc frosch looked at it yesternight
10:56:27 <peter1138> wallyweb's suggestion looks good
10:56:37 <peter1138> (i think that's 4 convos now :D)
10:56:41 <andythenorth> awesome
10:56:51 <andythenorth> I was just about to mention WW's class proposal
10:57:02 <andythenorth> why has no-one pointed out in the thread that I am smoking crack with my response?
10:57:09 <peter1138> planetmaker, of course, if we go with my EZ patches, then those sprites will be useless :(
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10:57:30 <andythenorth> built in obsolecense
10:57:37 <peter1138> andythenorth, i read it as sarcasm
10:57:46 <andythenorth> more neutral than that
10:58:02 <Celestar> peter1138: nope. I _hope_ I can recycle the foundation ones for now
10:58:10 <andythenorth> I don't want to upset WW :(
10:58:17 <andythenorth> I already drove his coder away :(
10:58:23 <peter1138> heh
10:58:33 <peter1138> yeah, nice that you got the blame for that
10:58:38 <andythenorth> I blame Eddi|zuHause
10:58:48 <peter1138> your unfinished set keeps changing? gosh!
10:59:04 <peter1138> (how often anyway :S)
10:59:06 <planetmaker> peter1138: why would Zeph's sprites be useless, if EZ would be added (in whatever way)?
10:59:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you screwed up
10:59:26 <andythenorth> you're supposed to ask forgiveness later, not in advance
10:59:34 <peter1138> planetmaker, not entirely useless. just the wrong size
10:59:42 * Celestar is wondering where his decoded trg1r.grf went
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11:01:53 <planetmaker> peter1138: sure. But those sprites were never meant as EZ. So, yes...
11:02:43 <planetmaker> Celestar:
11:02:47 <planetmaker> ^^ there ;-)
11:03:00 <Celestar> aha :)
11:04:12 <Celestar> stupid line
11:04:16 <Celestar> loads 3 sprites per second
11:05:15 <planetmaker> slow connection?
11:05:23 <planetmaker> well, you can select the sprites to show
11:05:34 <peter1138> heh
11:05:37 <peter1138> that's a lot of sprites
11:05:39 <Celestar> it SAIS 7.2 MBit HSDPA+
11:05:55 <Celestar> it feels like 5 carrier pigeons per minute, 3 of which are shot down
11:05:58 <planetmaker> 5000 is a bit too much. It's around 4800 in that file
11:06:15 <planetmaker> but it should stop when there's no more sprites to read ;-)
11:07:55 <Celestar> planetmaker: what are the 4 "sprite columns" I'm seeing?
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11:10:14 <planetmaker> opengfx, ttd, and some (old) EZ
11:11:30 <planetmaker> or swapped. FF seems to have corrupted my system. bbiab
11:11:38 <Celestar> lol
11:11:48 <Celestar> scrolling that page is slow shit.
11:14:20 <frosch123> planetmaker: i was about to fix the glitches with foundations on steep slopes
11:14:28 <frosch123> which only happen with ogfx
11:14:49 <frosch123> some of the ogfx foundations have "too much stuff"
11:16:40 <planetmaker> oh, I see, frosch123 :-)
11:16:50 <planetmaker> I didn't yet notice, tbh
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11:17:27 * Celestar thinks that reusing existing sprites will suck
11:17:31 <frosch123> nor did i, but i stumbled over some pics in the backlogs (by peter iirc)
11:17:38 <planetmaker> I guess creating a gimp with the front-side foundations and proper overlay would be simplest
11:17:51 <planetmaker> though not a 5-minute task either
11:17:54 <Celestar> yeah
11:18:09 <planetmaker> And I seem to have loads of these easy-but-not-5-minute tasks with opengfx sprites...
11:18:20 <planetmaker> at least when trying to generate them from gimp sources properly ;-)
11:18:46 <peter1138> frosch123, ah, that's an opengfx issue? heh
11:18:54 <andythenorth> do you need graphics for cliffs? I am missing part of the convo
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11:20:37 <MNIM> ehh. wrong server
11:20:50 <Celestar> andythenorth: yeah I will.
11:21:08 * andythenorth will be offline for several months in that case :P
11:21:17 <andythenorth> do you know what's needed yet?
11:21:23 <planetmaker> not yet, andythenorth. It was about current OpenGFX foundations having glitches
11:21:26 <Celestar> 8 sprites alltogether iirc.
11:21:30 <planetmaker> though... they might be needed ^
11:21:40 <Celestar> if they are "loopable" :P
11:21:40 <andythenorth> send me a reminder when you need them
11:21:48 <Celestar> andythenorth: will do
11:21:50 <andythenorth> I'll then gripe for 6 weeks, then they'll be done :P
11:23:37 <Celestar> for testing, a "brown box" will be fine :P
11:23:42 <Celestar> or brown wall
11:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather have cliffs as rocky/grey
11:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> opposed to the brown foundations
11:34:50 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: "test"
11:35:04 <Celestar> i.e. you will have a uniform brown (or grey) rectangle :P
11:35:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'll just make a snap decision, then commit it ;)
11:35:33 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: best thing would really be to make MP_CLIFF
11:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: i have a feeling you need more bits for tiletype :p
11:38:59 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: there are already 8 now :P
11:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: so, you have an MP_CLEAR marking the tile below the cliff, and an MP_CLIFF storing the Direction of the wall, and for the two ends of the wall the height above ground?
11:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly more than one MP_CLIFF
11:39:40 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: so far, I have nothing but a bunch of illegible sheets of paper with notes :P
11:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> for each side of the tile
11:40:19 <Celestar> I don'T see a "tile below the cliff" yet.
11:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the tile on the lower end of the cliff
11:40:39 <Celestar> apart from cliffed halftiles, which have been postponed :P
11:40:54 <Celestar> that's .. another tile :P
11:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> as opposed to the upper end, with foundations
11:41:33 <Celestar> a foundation is but a cliff of a non MP_CLEAR tile, isn't it?
11:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it might make more sense wrt drawing order etc
11:41:44 <planetmaker> Celestar: you might find code for them in rail_cmd.cpp where the half-tile foundations are - to my taste - hacked in.
11:42:06 <Celestar> planetmaker: I see what you mean.
11:42:20 <Celestar> planetmaker: my idea is to (code-wise) remove foundations altogether.
11:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: there may be gameplay differences between cliffs and foundations
11:42:36 <Celestar> planetmaker: and make them a "subset" of cliffs.
11:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. cheaper
11:42:48 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but that's just a bit in MP_FOUNDATION
11:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and automatically placed/destroyed
11:43:16 <Celestar> yep
11:43:32 <Celestar> but from a map point of view, it's the same thing.
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11:44:02 * andythenorth adventures in wikipedia
11:44:30 <andythenorth> "corner case" to "counterfactual history" via just one intermediate node
11:44:47 <Celestar> rofl
11:45:16 <Celestar> hm...
11:45:27 <Celestar> "Raise Land" doesn't actually ... raise land.
11:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not feeling well with wallyweb hijacking my thread. with some unintelligible babble that nobody actually understands
11:46:09 <Celestar> "Raise Land", "Level Land", "Lower Land" are actually one and the same thing. just with a different reference.
11:46:15 <andythenorth> which thread?
11:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> well, not "my thread" but "the thread where we discuss my proposal"
11:46:58 <andythenorth> he
11:47:09 <andythenorth> I shouldn't encourage him :)
11:47:21 <andythenorth> you never know, he might be onto something
11:47:33 <andythenorth> even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day etc etc
11:47:51 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: my plan was to post a list of the sane things we have actually decided
11:47:59 <andythenorth> but I can't really double-post :|
11:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> he can't divide between the technical specification and the user's manual.
11:48:07 <Celestar> also...except for the edge tiles of the selection, all three functions will level the tile (slope == SLOPE_FLAT)
11:48:15 * Celestar starts over with a new set of assumptions.
11:48:24 * andythenorth doesn't like appending new replies to old posts, with different topic
11:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: i always found the behaviour of raise and lower weird
11:49:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I posted a summary last night, var 0x40, 0x41, set a spec for uses of classes (vehicle sets conform or fail the spec) etc
11:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> raise/lower should imho preserve the shape of the landscape, just add 1 level
11:49:18 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: the question is, what would be less weird. preserve the landscale?
11:49:21 <Celestar> lol
11:49:22 <Celestar> ok.
11:50:29 <Celestar> the question is, what would others say if I did that :D
11:50:46 <andythenorth> they'd say "why can't I change newgrfs in game"
11:51:48 <Celestar> the whole code creeps me out
11:52:00 <andythenorth> they'd also say "I want underground metro"
11:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's actually feasible with the new scheme
11:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> we should call it "yet another map array" :p
11:53:25 <andythenorth> grr
11:53:28 <andythenorth> underground sucks
11:53:33 <Celestar> andythenorth: that is kind of the whole point :P
11:53:44 <andythenorth> I figured that might be the next step :P
11:53:46 <peter1138> underground industries!
11:54:01 <andythenorth>
11:54:03 <peter1138> openminecrafttycoon
11:54:18 <andythenorth>
11:54:35 <andythenorth> peter1138: ^^ I think that brings about a singularity
11:54:44 <andythenorth> especially if you 'make it in facebook'
11:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> we should have more intermediate heightlevels
11:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> currently 1 heightlevel is 8 pixels, we should also have 4 and 12 pixel slopes
11:55:33 <Celestar> *cough*scope creep*cough*
11:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> 12px required for tunnel entrances
11:55:52 <planetmaker> uhm... what would it change to insert more slopes?
11:56:16 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: you mean ... cliff tunnel entrances?
11:56:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: that as well, but that's not what i mean
11:57:09 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I don't see 12px tunnel entrances as a hard requirement
11:57:15 <peter1138> Slope would become very complicated
11:57:26 <planetmaker> it'd break too much and too many assumptions
11:57:50 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: well we could first only allow tunnels at 16px cliffs :P
11:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but it'd make it more *dreaded-r-word*
11:58:05 <planetmaker> :-)
11:58:12 <Celestar> the .. what?
11:59:21 <andythenorth> he means "take away the joy of playing with a toy, in favour of basing it on the collective hallucination known as the real world" :P
11:59:42 <andythenorth> toys compress stuff, so should ottd :P
12:00:15 * andythenorth will now stop with the amateur philosophy
12:00:15 <Celestar> so does a compressor :P
12:02:48 <andythenorth> hmm
12:03:00 * andythenorth might have a solution to stop trams lying in the buy menu
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12:16:11 <b_jonas> great
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12:26:51 <z-MaTRiX> hey-ho
12:26:52 <z-MaTRiX> :)
12:26:56 <z-MaTRiX> This is Eternity
12:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you're evil, now i have this tune stuck in my head
12:27:36 <z-MaTRiX> ;>>
12:28:05 <z-MaTRiX> but its cool no?
12:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no
12:28:49 <z-MaTRiX> ok here's some lighter Anastasia vs. Dumonde-Fly to the sky
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13:37:57 <Celestar> hmm
13:38:05 <Celestar> steeper slopes would make rack railways useful :D
13:40:12 <MNIM> rack railways?
13:44:02 <Celestar> ?
13:44:19 <MNIM> what are rack railways?
13:45:48 <peter1138> steep hills
13:45:51 <peter1138> very specific
13:46:01 <planetmaker> cogwheel rails
13:46:09 <MNIM> oh.
13:46:13 <peter1138> Celestar, doesn't need steeper slopes
13:46:16 <MNIM> yeah, that'd be cool.
13:46:31 <Celestar> acronym finder SVP GSM
13:46:31 <peter1138> Celestar, i managed to get trains going 1mph up a short 2-tile slope :S
13:46:41 <Celestar> rofl
13:46:58 <MNIM> I managed to do that with five-tile trains too.
13:47:08 <Celestar> http://lmgtfy/?q=Rack+Railway
13:47:13 <Celestar>
13:47:52 <MNIM> I mean, with fourteen-tile trains I know to use smooth slopes or double locs (or both), but a single loc should suffice fore a five-tile, right?
14:08:30 <Celestar> well.
14:08:31 <Celestar> depends.
14:08:41 <Celestar> how much is a standard ottd slope?
14:08:57 <Celestar> 2%?
14:09:00 <Celestar> 1%?
14:10:14 <Elukka> it represents every possible slope
14:10:22 <Elukka> isn't that adjustable now anyway, though
14:10:39 <Sacro> Yep
14:10:41 <MNIM> well, I think it's 5% with realistic acceleration?
14:10:57 <Celestar> yeah.
14:10:57 <Celestar> but for computing dynamics, you need to assume something.
14:10:59 <V453000> I do not think he means the setting but the actual volume of the hill
14:11:02 <Celestar> where I think 2% is possible.
14:11:03 <Celestar> 5%?!
14:11:23 <Celestar> 5% is a total shitload.
14:11:29 <MNIM> for trains?
14:11:30 <MNIM> yes.
14:11:41 <Celestar> for main lines it's nearly unheard of.
14:11:46 <MNIM> for cars, operating on the same slope, that's a woozy
14:12:01 <Celestar> normal main lines are usually limited to 2 - 2.5% tops.
14:12:12 <MNIM> what's the slope for an average railway viaduct?
14:12:25 <Celestar> only Frankfurt-Cologne has 4% slope.
14:12:45 <Celestar> that's the reason why only the ICE-3 trains can use it.
14:13:20 <MNIM> why, are they the only ones powerful enough?
14:13:24 <Celestar> yeah.
14:13:33 <Celestar> 450tons full, 8MW sustained power.
14:13:41 <Celestar> I guess the temporary power is slightly higher.
14:13:56 <Celestar> a full-length train thus has 16MW.
14:15:19 <Celestar> but to compare: on the 6.2km long slope of 1.8% in the Irlahülltunnel, an ICE3 usually uses about 25km/h of speed under optimial circumstances.
14:15:37 <Celestar> just those 4%-sections on Frankfurt-Cologne are rather shortish.
14:15:47 <Celestar> s/uses/loses
14:16:31 <Celestar> and btw: I don't think most cars would be able to sustain 300km/h on a 4% slope :P
14:18:03 <glx> and they start to fly when they pass the top ?
14:18:37 <Celestar> cars a fucking heavy :P
14:18:40 <Celestar> are*
14:18:55 <Belugas> hello
14:19:04 <Celestar> hey Belugas \o
14:19:57 <Belugas> sir Celestar :)
14:21:57 <TGYoshi> Any of you a little knowing about NAT and stuff?
14:22:47 <TGYoshi> Since I want to run some kind of server, not related to openttd, listening on port 5000, while the data travels to the router from port 6000.
14:25:44 <Noldo> what do you have running on the router
14:27:34 <TGYoshi> Err, some default firmware called H220N
14:29:07 <planetmaker> hi Belugas :-)
14:29:25 <peter1138> you can do that with NAT
14:29:28 <Noldo> it may or may not have some portforwarding features and they may or may not be well documented
14:29:40 <peter1138> whether your implementation allows you to is another matter
14:30:02 <peter1138> 3%
14:30:11 <peter1138> the default train slope is 3%
14:30:23 <peter1138> it's something like 5 or 7% for road vehicles, i can't remember
14:30:33 <peter1138> ttdpatches track slopes are 5%
14:30:44 <MNIM> That's kinda silly, they're still the same slops :S
14:31:49 <Belugas> hi planetmaker :)
14:32:03 <Xaroth> afternoon
14:34:25 <Celestar> 5%
14:34:36 <Celestar> no friggen freight train makes 5%
14:34:51 <peter1138> don't forget freight-weight 4+ :D
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14:38:30 <TGYoshi> Errrr, I had a blue screen
14:38:44 <TGYoshi> Hard disk fault, yay
14:44:09 <Xaroth> sucks to be your hard drive then :P
14:57:10 <andythenorth> Celestar: rack railways go *up* the new cliffs no?
14:57:26 <andythenorth> also...funiculars, but they're a tram type, not a train type in game
14:57:27 <andythenorth> :P
14:58:59 <peter1138> hmm?
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15:00:45 * andythenorth is inventing stuff that doesn't exist
15:01:38 <andythenorth> someone once showed me why we can't have rail stations on certain slopes (trains cascade up/down a vertical foundation)
15:01:51 <peter1138> ok
15:01:53 <andythenorth> allow that for trams on cliffs :)
15:01:55 <peter1138> that's...
15:02:04 <peter1138> that's bollocks :)
15:02:20 <andythenorth> bollocks as in it didn't happen? :o
15:02:24 <Xaroth> and when peter1138 sais it's bollocks.. it absolutely is.. bollocks.
15:02:26 <peter1138> reason you can't have rail stations on slopes: nobody's coded it.
15:02:27 <andythenorth> he
15:02:36 <peter1138> i probably have a patch for it...
15:02:38 <andythenorth> they didn't say it wasn't possible :)
15:02:43 <peter1138> you'd need new graphics of course
15:02:55 <peter1138> that's hardly a hurdle these days without custom grfs
15:03:21 <Xaroth> peter1138: the question more would be, why isn't it in trunk yet :P
15:03:30 <peter1138> i don't think i do really :p
15:03:42 <peter1138> i had one for stations with curves, which is arguably more work
15:04:15 <Xaroth> what would be funny tho, is that if you load a train to more than it can pull, while on a sloped station.. it should go down-hill
15:04:26 <Xaroth> would make interesting strategies for rail-planning
15:04:36 <peter1138> it wouldn't
15:04:48 <peter1138> trains can't go backwards :D
15:05:04 <Xaroth> I'm sure you can make a patch for that :)
15:05:22 <peter1138> an underpowered train will always move
15:05:26 <TrueBrain> the legend words of peter1138 ... 'I have a patch for it' :D
15:05:28 <peter1138> just very slowly
15:05:39 <andythenorth> btw I don't mean stations that follow the contour, I mean a station tile with foundations. You can't do that where the direction of rail is perpendicular to line of slope.
15:05:45 <peter1138> TrueBrain, most of my patches are published too
15:05:54 <peter1138> nothing to stop someone™ taking them up ;)
15:06:17 <peter1138> andythenorth, oh
15:06:22 <TrueBrain> and I hope you also remember I have a patch to solve all bugs ;)
15:06:26 <peter1138> andythenorth, it would conflict with stations on slopes ;)
15:06:29 <peter1138> TrueBrain, yes :)
15:06:31 <andythenorth> ha
15:06:36 <Celestar> andythenorth: a rack railway is not going up a cliff :P
15:06:36 <Celestar> because a cliff is vertical
15:06:36 <Celestar> a rack railway cannot go vertical :P
15:06:46 <peter1138> that's a lift
15:06:47 <Celestar> because if it did, we'd call it "elevator"
15:07:00 * andythenorth just offers ideas to the crowd :P
15:07:04 <andythenorth> some live, most die
15:07:21 <peter1138> multistop docks did you say?
15:07:22 <Celestar> standard rack railway systems are limited to about 25% slope before the cog is pushed out of the rack.
15:07:27 <MNIM> evolution at its finest, no?
15:07:37 <peter1138> Celestar, you're a master of multistop aren't you? :D
15:07:47 <peter1138> although i gather it's changed a lot since then, heh
15:08:04 <andythenorth> funicular then?
15:08:07 <andythenorth> still a lift really
15:08:10 <andythenorth> if it's vertical
15:08:12 <peter1138> funiculars are bit too specialized imho
15:08:14 <andythenorth> lifts?
15:08:25 <andythenorth> pipelines!
15:08:37 <Celestar> peter1138: yeah.. I was the one who committed the crime :P
15:08:38 <andythenorth> I think I solved pipelines with an AI and vehicles that cost £0 to run
15:08:43 <andythenorth> except I didn't code it:P
15:09:06 <peter1138> pipelines are easy
15:09:36 <Celestar> peter1138: actually, it hasn't changed much
15:10:07 <peter1138> slot reservation is different
15:10:09 * andythenorth thinks the whole "pipelines aren't in scope for the game" thing is bollocks
15:10:17 <andythenorth> pipelines are transport
15:10:32 <andythenorth> and if you were only allowed to route them above ground, they're challenging
15:10:55 <Celestar> peter1138: yeah, that was changed about 12340 times :P
15:10:58 <andythenorth> and if you wanted to go upslope and had to build an extra 1 or 2 tile pump station next to the pipeline, that would be more challenging again :P
15:11:00 <peter1138> :D :D
15:11:00 <Celestar> peter1138: it kind of works
15:11:09 <peter1138> anyway, yeah, i do want mutlistop docks
15:11:21 * andythenorth would like mutlistop docks too
15:11:30 <andythenorth> and whacky racers
15:11:31 <peter1138> though when i say that, some people immediately think that means that ships will be able to collide as well, heh
15:12:36 <Celestar> peter1138: I'd first like to have colliding ships :)
15:13:15 <peter1138> i think that'd be nice
15:13:25 <peter1138> but it's not a prerequisite :)
15:14:53 <andythenorth> colliding ships :(
15:15:15 <andythenorth> you will destroy my ~ oo capacity shipping routes :(
15:16:15 <Celestar> rofl
15:16:30 <peter1138> :D
15:16:40 <peter1138> ships with quantum queuing? :p
15:17:12 <MNIM> What's with the quantum, actually?
15:17:31 <MNIM> doesn't seem like there's a lot of quantum mechanics in this game
15:17:36 <andythenorth> I read that as quantum aging :(
15:17:41 <andythenorth> something wrong with my eyes
15:17:43 <andythenorth> or my brain
15:17:49 <andythenorth> or the wires between the two
15:17:55 <peter1138> MNIM, have you seen it?
15:18:03 <andythenorth> MNIM: took me a while to figure it out :P
15:18:05 <peter1138> andythenorth, you have two brains?
15:18:17 <andythenorth> peter1138: I'm not sure, I can't count too well
15:18:28 <andythenorth> I may have 10 brains
15:18:33 <andythenorth> more likely 1 though
15:21:31 <Celestar> what the fuck is wrong with these end to end testers ....
15:21:34 <Celestar> got a mail
15:21:57 <Celestar> "[ record is discarded and I don't know why. .... Please isolate the error message ]"
15:22:08 <Celestar> he posted a screen shot with the mail.
15:22:34 <Celestar> "Record XXXXX discarded: Called number and calling number are identcal"
15:22:59 <Celestar> I'm THIS close to making a screenshot, drawing a red circle around the message and label it "here it is"
15:23:56 <peter1138> dbg: [sprite] Tried to load gui sprite #723 as a normal sprite. Probable cause: NewGRF interference
15:24:00 <peter1138> hmm
15:24:01 <peter1138> i'm doing something wrong :p
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15:43:46 <Sacro> hmm, if I do _virsh = $(locate -l1 virsh), how do I then call virsh?
15:47:56 <Sacro> ah, $_virsh
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15:51:30 <planetmaker> what do you try, peter1138?
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16:04:53 <peter1138> nothing, that's output with my EZ patch
16:05:29 <peter1138> which i'm going to rewrite, possibly tonight.
16:05:55 <andythenorth> I am going to rewrite my tram code :P
16:05:57 <andythenorth> tonight
16:10:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23212 /trunk/src/group_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4834] (r22980): Deleting groups did not update statistics of DEFAULT group.
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16:10:27 <LordAro> evening
16:20:13 <planetmaker> hi LordAro
16:21:12 <LordAro> shall i complain about the lack of build for 32bpp-ez now?
16:23:34 <planetmaker> no idea ;-)
16:23:37 * peter1138 reviews the other EZ patch
16:23:49 <planetmaker> LordAro: for which exact repo?
16:23:57 <peter1138> it's still... urgh
16:24:22 <LordAro> planetmaker: 32bpp-ez-patches, the builds are usually published in 32bpp-ez
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16:27:21 <peter1138>
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16:27:30 <peter1138> ^ hmm, i could always make that look optional... heh
16:27:44 <peter1138> < prefer that myself
16:28:57 <Elukka> i see my wagon
16:29:12 <andythenorth> peter1138: ez8 < that one. Shippety ship!
16:29:21 <Rubidium> peter1138: those 32bpp sprites look ugly! ;)
16:29:40 <andythenorth> I see my tractor
16:29:44 <Elukka> :D
16:30:02 <andythenorth>
16:30:37 <planetmaker> it has too small GUI for that zoom :-P
16:32:29 <Mazur> Does aynone know a webpage with a good small NAND gate in openttd tracks?
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16:35:46 <peter1138> planetmaker, slightly
16:35:59 <peter1138> planetmaker, as i said though, biggui is a bit too large :)
16:36:14 <peter1138> Mazur, they're signals, not logic gates :S
16:36:18 <andythenorth> I should redraw the gui?
16:36:28 <andythenorth> kind of like my sometimes-day-job :P
16:36:45 <peter1138> actually biggui might be okay with 2x zoom too :)
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16:46:12 <Mazur> peter1138, whatever. I need seomthing that turns green if and only if two other lines show green sigs.
16:47:21 <Mazur> I'm sure I will come up with something if I think long and hard enough, but why reinvent the wheel?
16:58:26 <michi_cc> Mazur:
17:00:28 <Mazur> michi_cc, yes, I know, but that would lead to three NOTs and an AND, and I'm sure there mut be simpler solution.
17:01:23 <TWerkhoven> what about the actual or-gate thats there? remember 0=green and 1=red
17:02:57 <Mazur> Oh. totally overlooked that.
17:03:09 * Mazur thwaps himself hard on the face.
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17:28:25 <andythenorth> bah
17:28:36 <andythenorth> nobody has pointed out how insane my suggestions to ww are :P
17:28:41 * andythenorth is disappointed
17:32:29 <Xaroth> your suggestions are insane
17:35:29 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if your suggestions are insane enough, most people will assume that they don't know enough to comment and say nothing
17:37:56 <andythenorth> yeah, but now I can't reply in the thread without breaking double-post rule :|
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17:40:30 <Terkhen> "I'm sorry for the double post but..."
17:43:21 <LordAro> edit your previous post ;)
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18:45:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23213 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt italian.txt russian.txt):
18:45:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by Wowanxm
18:45:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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18:55:14 <Wolf01> evenink
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18:58:05 <andythenorth> didn't Wolf01 have a patch for RV stops on slopes?
18:58:30 <Wolf01> yes, I had it a long time ago
18:58:52 <andythenorth> might have been interesting?
18:59:10 <andythenorth> train stations on slopes is questionable. RV stops is valid imo
19:00:13 <glx> I remember seeing train stations on slope
19:00:24 <glx> looked ugly :)
19:01:04 <Wolf01> the graphics must be changed
19:03:44 <b_jonas> what would you have next, depots on slopes where the workers have to risk their lives every day because the badly wedged trains can start to roll while they're repairing them?
19:04:24 <andythenorth> might stations on curves work?
19:05:05 <Wolf01> stations on bridges
19:05:07 <b_jonas> wait, maybe that could be allowed up to, say, 1900
19:05:19 <b_jonas> or some such fixed dat
19:05:34 <b_jonas> then union workers decided that depots on slopes don't work anymore
19:06:31 <b_jonas> andythenorth: do you mean stations with turns in the tracks?
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19:07:57 <andythenorth> yup
19:08:39 <b_jonas> that's tricky because it would require lots of new graphics
19:08:51 <b_jonas> I'm not sure whether it should be allowed mechanically
19:08:52 <andythenorth> not necessarily
19:09:00 <andythenorth> could just do / \ angles, allow a turn
19:09:42 <b_jonas> or even allow diagonal stations but not turns
19:10:05 <andythenorth> currently my idea is possible, but (a) the pathfinder might not like it (b) load time penalty would apply for trains being overlength
19:11:49 <b_jonas> and then you'd want two-level railway stations
19:12:08 <b_jonas> with platforms both on ground level and a tunnel or bridge
19:12:26 <Rubidium> pff... two-level is boring
19:12:48 <Rubidium> N-level is the way to go
19:13:53 <b_jonas> also ground under sea level -- I think that's quite easy to implement, you just need to add graphics for sloped sea tiles, and a mechanism that when all four tiles around a corner is flooded by sea then that corner is raised to ground level
19:24:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23214 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: for base media sets pass the "search in tars" parameter to determine what to do
19:33:51 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how about a name for the cargo schema? :) ECS gets conflated with ECS
19:34:21 <Rubidium> NoCS
19:34:32 <andythenorth> NewECS
19:34:40 <Rubidium> YACS
19:34:56 <andythenorth> ^ and we have a winner
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19:36:06 <appe> :O
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19:39:19 <peter1138> graphics for stations on curves already exist
19:41:20 <peter1138> < sprite sorting ;(
19:42:40 <andythenorth> ! bridges over stations
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19:43:39 <frosch123> implement a z buffer :p
19:44:16 <peter1138> :)
19:44:43 <peter1138> then you would even need sprite sorting ;)
19:45:48 <andythenorth> bridges over stations isn't a code problem is it? It's just impossible without an extra layer of madness limiting station height?
19:47:01 <peter1138> the patch is tiny actually
19:47:17 <peter1138> well it was
19:47:23 <peter1138> r9829 :p
19:47:33 <peter1138> although it's not complete
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19:51:14 * andythenorth needs to rework the silly trams :P
19:51:14 *** pjpe has joined #openttd
19:51:22 <andythenorth> but first: baby duties
19:56:04 <Belugas> buwhahahha!!
19:56:10 <Belugas> you asked for it!
19:56:23 <Belugas> peter1138, cool way to go :)
19:56:31 <appe> trams?
19:56:33 <appe> :<
20:00:52 <andythenorth> trams
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20:04:28 <LordAro> bye all
20:04:31 *** LordAro has quit IRC
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20:06:04 <Belugas> naaa.. baby...
20:06:10 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:06:29 <Belugas> hi ... "daddy"the north
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20:08:44 <andythenorth> bath time
20:09:00 <andythenorth> this laptop is not waterproof
20:09:21 <Belugas> :)
20:10:33 <andythenorth> who will be #400 to download latest HEQS? :P
20:10:59 <andythenorth> $someone
20:11:19 <andythenorth> hmm
20:11:28 <andythenorth> some kind of live download display would be cool
20:11:32 <andythenorth> maps and whatnot
20:11:39 *** pjpe has joined #openttd
20:11:45 <andythenorth> "OpenTTD ops control"
20:12:31 <andythenorth> and a big red button for something
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20:32:13 <b_jonas> ah, I like big red buttons
20:32:30 <b_jonas>
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20:38:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23215 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp command_func.h command_type.h): -Codechange: stricter type safety for CommandFlags
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20:54:56 <andythenorth> better newgrf vehicle smoke - that would need new props or a cb, not grfv8?
20:55:30 <planetmaker> that's feasible by those means, yes
20:55:33 <planetmaker> either or
20:55:45 <frosch123> just delete "grfv8" from your dictionary :p
20:59:20 * andythenorth rm "grfv8"
21:01:31 <andythenorth> is there anything I can do to prompt better smoke?
21:01:36 <andythenorth> other than actually burning stuff?
21:01:41 <andythenorth> wasn't a lack of spec the issue?
21:01:55 <andythenorth> and when we tried to make a spec, didn't it expand horribly to 'newgrf everything'
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21:22:44 <andythenorth> @calc 25000 - 23215
21:22:44 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1785
21:23:53 <planetmaker> that's still a bit to go ;-)
21:24:11 <planetmaker> @calc 23215/6
21:24:11 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 3869.16666667
21:25:26 <andythenorth> do small commits :P
21:25:40 <andythenorth> try and get lots of translations?
21:25:50 <planetmaker> that'll be only 1/day
21:25:51 <V453000> the readme in game is very nice! :)
21:26:11 <andythenorth> \o/
21:26:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: /me is hoping on at least one commit about props 0x40 and 0x41 :P
21:26:30 <V453000> might be nice to allow some basic formatting though, like yellow text etc.
21:28:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23216 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: introduce the concept of having different tar lists
21:30:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23217 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: introduce the concept of scanning only in a limited set of sub directories
21:32:12 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23218 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Codechange: prepare code for a separate base set directory
21:32:43 <planetmaker> \o/
21:33:32 <Terkhen> :)
21:34:28 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23219 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Change: different directories for basesets and newgrfs. So data to baseset or newgrf, and gm to baseset
21:35:14 <z-MaTRiX> what will be the end of all this? ;/
21:35:29 <andythenorth> "it will be done"
21:36:29 <z-MaTRiX> i believe it will never be done
21:36:44 <z-MaTRiX> those never-ending patches
21:38:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23220 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Change: move the baseset files to their new location
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21:39:11 <Terkhen> for it to stop you need at least two things:
21:39:25 <Terkhen> a) Stop Moore's law
21:39:26 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23221 /trunk/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: update the documentation and installers regarding the new directories
21:39:32 <Terkhen> b) Stop people from desiring new features
21:39:37 <Terkhen> oh, and:
21:39:40 <Terkhen> c) Make coding for OpenTTD boring
21:39:57 <planetmaker> err, what?
21:40:22 <Terkhen> response to "what will be the end of commits"
21:40:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23222 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: reduce tar scanning calls to the bare minimum
21:41:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23223 /trunk/src/table/ (misc_settings.ini settings.ini): -Codechange: store the last newgrf count in the misc section
21:41:40 * planetmaker missed that question ;-)
21:41:56 * andythenorth awaits r23332
21:42:02 * andythenorth has stupid numerology issues
21:42:56 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23224 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp settings.cpp settings_func.h): -Codechange: first load the config file partially so we can push scanning AIs to later in the process (when the GUI is showing the progress bar)
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21:48:02 <peter1138> coolcool
21:48:54 <Wolf01> 'night
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21:51:46 <andythenorth> bah
21:52:00 <andythenorth> still nobody has replied to say how stupid my reply to ww is about cargos :P
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21:58:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23225 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix: create the newgrf/baseset/ai directories in the personal directory so the user has some clue where to place the different files
21:58:53 <Rubidium> there... 10 closer to r25k
21:59:38 <Terkhen> :)
21:59:59 <andythenorth> ha
21:59:59 <planetmaker> :-)
22:06:45 * andythenorth is 1 commit closer to HEQS r25k :P
22:07:08 <andythenorth> only another 24287 to go
22:08:00 <planetmaker> :-)
22:09:30 * andythenorth fixed the stupid lies about tram capacity
22:09:34 <andythenorth> that had been bugging me
22:12:12 <andythenorth> good night
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22:15:19 <Terkhen> good night
22:16:40 <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen. And good luck tomorrow :-)
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22:34:05 <planetmaker> good night
22:40:36 <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> "I'm sorry for the double post but..." <-- imho that phrase is even more annoying than a double post in itself
22:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: have you solved static-grfs-in-the-main-menu thing yet?
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23:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause> GUI feature: remember sizes for each window class
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23:20:33 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause:
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23:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: so you've been holding back on this for one and a half years now...
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23:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> what was also missing last time i played was remembering stickyness of toolbars
23:27:10 <Eddi|zuHause> when i switch from rail toolbar to road toolbar, the stickyness is forgotten
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23:30:26 <Belugas> there was someone who mentionned (reagrding that patch) that source code was wrong on something
23:30:38 <Belugas> I don't remember what or who
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23:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a good deal of specifics :p
23:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "Weeds renewed for eighth season"
23:33:28 <Eddi|zuHause> eightth?
23:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> how the hell is that written?
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