IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-15
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00:10:51 <uktab> Can anyone tell me if there's a rotate screen button so I can see behind buildings etc. pls?
00:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> use the X key to make buildings transparent
00:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (or Ctrl+X to have more settings)
00:24:55 <uktab> why do my $ go down by 3 every second?
00:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that, yes. you can get a more detailed report when clicking on the money icon at the top
00:27:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
00:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> whoa... another guy who plays this mysterious version 1.1.13
00:43:26 <uktab> how can I flatten land to make my raiway track go through it ?
00:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> with the landscape tool
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07:40:06 <Rubidium> Korenn: the town demands win32.zip is in violation with GPL. It misses at least COPYING. You also ship regression which makes little to no sense for the end users
07:44:01 <planetmaker> hm... all people notice concurrently :-P
07:44:55 <Alberth> with interleaving concurrency semantics, yeah :)
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07:55:31 <Arafangion> 64x64 maps are difficult.
07:56:10 <Arafangion> When one has every cargo transported, it seems there is little point to the game.
07:56:14 <planetmaker> unless you set running costs to virtually 0
07:56:27 <Arafangion> Oh, no, normal game. :)
07:56:39 <planetmaker> fund new industries. Grow towns. Transport more
07:56:49 <planetmaker> improve station rating. Get a score of 1000
07:57:00 <Arafangion> It's just in the year 2260, and my industries are going nuts with the amount of cargo they produce - I can't seem to tranport it all with my trains. :)
07:57:15 <Arafangion> planetmaker: Impossible to get a score of 1000, isn't it? (For these maps)
07:57:17 <planetmaker> so it's not yet "done" ;-)
07:57:18 <__ln__> fund the Apollo program and colonize the moon.
07:57:26 <__ln__> hmm, might not be possible.
07:57:45 <planetmaker> I haven't played for the score on 64**2 admittedly
07:57:56 <planetmaker> but it's a challenge
07:57:59 <Arafangion> Besides, my stations are 4-tiles in length (I don't have enough track room for longer), and I can't transport all the cargo!
07:58:07 <Rubidium> improbable is a better word ;)
07:58:18 <Arafangion> (I think I did 200 years ago, but then the industries conspired to produce more!)
07:58:44 <Arafangion> Rubidium: With such a small map, how would you get meet the 'profit' goal?
08:00:01 <Rubidium> e.g. try to make money both ways
08:00:29 <Rubidium> time waiting to a bare minimum, while still maintaining station ratings
08:00:48 <Arafangion> How should I show a screenshot of the game?
08:01:01 <Arafangion> Getting the screenshot's easy, it's putting it "out there" that's not!
08:01:44 <Terkhen> use imagebin or some website like that
08:04:51 <Arafangion> That seems to do it.
08:05:24 <Arafangion> I'm not too sure about my intersection designs, but they seem to handle the load very well.
08:05:29 <Korenn> Arafangion: if you have the money, raise up all the sea to land level
08:05:41 <Korenn> that will allow more industry to appear
08:06:11 <Arafangion> Korenn: Interesting idea.
08:06:51 <Arafangion> Just raised half the land.
08:06:55 <Arafangion> I now have no money. :)
08:07:20 <Arafangion> That oilfield is new.
08:07:40 <Arafangion> I don't think Fardtown lakeside can handle any more trains, though.
08:08:04 * Arafangion puts in a new station between the power and oil refinery, pending more income.
08:09:42 * Arafangion doesn't think he will use ImageShack again, the images are blurry.
08:10:10 <Korenn> Rubidium: anything other than COPYING required?
08:10:50 <planetmaker> as said: language files are specific to a build
08:11:05 <Korenn> planetmaker: yeah, that comment of yours made no sense
08:11:08 <Korenn> but I already replied to it
08:11:18 <planetmaker> it doesn't make sense to distribute without
08:11:32 <Korenn> nobody ever implied that was the intent
08:11:34 <planetmaker> ... so you don't understand it, thus it doesn't make sense?
08:11:47 <Arafangion> Isn't that the definition of "made no sense"?
08:12:22 * Lachie trudges in the door from work
08:12:37 <planetmaker> then learn to express yourself properly, Korenn
08:12:48 <Korenn> you didn't read properly ;)
08:13:00 <Arafangion> I must say, I'm glad to have found this channel. :)
08:13:29 <planetmaker> thank you, I can read just fine. Your words are ambigeous at best, Korenn
08:14:12 <Korenn> I directly replied to a comment that Lord Aro made. You took it to be a comment to something else (I guess myself?). Not my fault.
08:14:54 <planetmaker> you replied to "missing lang files?" with "no I shouldn't use 'make bundle'" Oh right
08:15:12 <Lachie> Arafangion: since you're being pedantic, it's spelt ambiguous.
08:15:32 <Arafangion> Lachie: Ah, thanks. :/
08:15:33 <Korenn> right, so you a) didn't read the second sentence, b) didn't read the rest post before or bothered to read my comments in the OP.
08:15:46 <Korenn> since I had *just* posted a new zip wiht the lang files
08:15:56 <Korenn> and lord aro responded to taht
08:16:09 <Lachie> Arafangion: like to dish it out but can't take it back? :P
08:16:44 <Arafangion> Lachie: No, it's good to correct spelling and grammar. :) It's frustrating as heck when people don't do that.
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08:18:00 <planetmaker> Korenn: and still Lord Aro is totally right. ;-)
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08:18:15 <Korenn> I never said he wasn't.
08:18:18 <planetmaker> and the bundle I downloaded did not (yet) contain your (silently) updated thing
08:18:28 <Korenn> though I refuse to install MingW and fuck up my development environment again
08:18:32 <planetmaker> so how can I know you update something somewhere else when you don't say so?
08:18:40 <Arafangion> Korenn: You don't run your windows in a VM?
08:19:03 <planetmaker> But I should remember to be quite sparingly with advice also in your case. It's obviously not welcome
08:19:28 <Arafangion> Korenn: Then messing up your environment is a concern, indeed. :)
08:19:48 <Korenn> advice given from not actually reading the thread isn't appreciated, that's correct.
08:19:56 <Korenn> since it tends to be out of context
08:19:58 <planetmaker> that's out of my screen when reading 'newest messages' ;-)
08:20:20 <planetmaker> good good. I'll just remember your name ;-)
08:20:21 <Korenn> but I'm adding the COPYING license now
08:20:49 <planetmaker> yes, do that. technically readme would need to go, too. As gpl requires credits ;-)
08:21:03 <planetmaker> and when you're at it: add the usual documentation a bundle ships with
08:21:50 <Korenn> I think technically the credits are already in the game itself
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08:22:08 <Korenn> but I'll add those too while I'm at it
08:24:33 <Terkhen> that should be enough to run Makefile.msvc
08:24:44 <Arafangion> Korenn: What is it you're doing? Making a new win32 version?
08:25:09 <Korenn> Terkhen: I'll have a look at that for next time
08:25:32 <Korenn> as long as make bundle doesn't also do a compile / link task
08:25:49 <Arafangion> Ah, interesting - that's similar to what some multiplayer servers require.
08:25:51 <Korenn> and the directories for the binaries all match exactly in win / linux
08:25:59 <Rubidium> if you use Makefile.msvc it doesn't do any compilation
08:26:09 <Terkhen> Makefile.msvc only creates a bundle
08:26:18 <Arafangion> Made it much more enjoyable.
08:26:20 <Terkhen> over a source checkout compiled by MSVC
08:29:09 <Rubidium> and be aware that you have to pass PLATFORM=win32 (or PLATFORM=win64 for 64bits MSVC binaries) for it to work right
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08:30:27 <Rubidium> so, e.g. make -f Makefile.msvc PLATFORM=win32 bundle_zip (copies the objs/win32/release/openttd.exe to bin/openttd, then constructs the bundle and finally creates a .zip of it)
08:30:47 <Korenn> Rubidium: I'll add that to a post-build step, thanks
08:31:03 <Korenn> wait, 'creates a zip' ?
08:31:40 <Rubidium> if you do just bundle (not bundle_zip) it only creates the bundle
08:32:07 <Rubidium> though there are many other bundle_* "targets"
08:33:55 <Korenn> Arafangion: yep, it does add to the fun. And this way, on our own server, we make all cargoes in FIRS useful and challenging to create :)
08:34:16 <Korenn> Terkhen: I'll just stick to creating the nonzipped bundle and use my own tools after
08:35:54 * Arafangion thinks it's absurd that windows doesn't have a convenient .zip implementation.
08:36:10 <planetmaker> but not command-line
08:36:22 <Terkhen> it isn't convenient either
08:36:48 <planetmaker> enough for the rare occasions I use windoze
08:37:05 <planetmaker> to zip a folder and be done
08:37:21 <Arafangion> planetmaker: It's not even accessible via .NET
08:40:00 <Korenn> the built-in zip is shite. I prefer third party tools like winrar or 7zip
08:47:12 * Arafangion increases "station spread" because he can't join stations.
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08:50:19 <Korenn> Terkhen: nope, that make fails horribly
08:51:01 <Korenn> 'sed' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
08:51:01 <Korenn> The process tried to write to a nonexistent pipe.
08:51:01 <Korenn> 'AWK' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
08:51:01 <Korenn> 'cut' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
08:51:01 <Korenn> 'cp' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
08:54:28 <Arafangion> I think those are all provided as part of mingw, and other programs such as git.
08:55:12 <Terkhen> it does not fail horribly, you are missing more packages
08:55:16 <Terkhen> you can grab them from that same page
08:58:33 <Arafangion> Fascinating, one *can* have a crashed train in a depot.
08:59:26 <Arafangion> And those trains were over $13m each. :(
08:59:32 <Arafangion> Expensive mistake.
09:01:21 <Elukka> it does make for amusing error messages
09:03:05 <Arafangion> One should be able to sell them regardless.
09:03:18 <Arafangion> I sold my car for $100, for instance.
09:03:30 <__ln__> A good salesman would even sell a train that doesn't exist.
09:03:56 <Arafangion> __ln__: My car was a Hyundai, and I sold it to Ford. :)
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09:17:36 <peter1138> never mind that a slight nudge kills everyone and writes off the whole train
09:19:55 <Terkhen> oh, I misread "slight nuke"
09:20:36 <PeanutHorst> that would do it too
09:22:53 * Arafangion wishes he had time to contribute to this game, it seems awesome.
09:24:23 <planetmaker> you have time for what you take your time ;-)
09:25:39 <Arafangion> planetmaker: And right now it's about to be consumed by guacomole and more openttd playing. ;)
09:26:37 <Arafangion> The "GUI redevelopment" sounds intruguing.
09:30:15 <planetmaker> peter1138: and the arrows are now correct ;-)
09:30:26 <peter1138> i'll take a look later
09:30:31 <planetmaker> I wonder though why the scrollbars use the text arrows and not the sprite arrows
09:30:43 <peter1138> raisins, hysterical ones
09:31:07 <planetmaker> the text arrows are differently aligned. And it shows at this size
09:31:13 <peter1138> one of my patches switches them so that alignment is better
09:31:31 <peter1138> makes it consistent with hscrollbars too
09:33:02 <planetmaker> When I get the remaining sprites from Zephyris... we'd have a new version
09:51:10 <Arafangion> __ln__: That's nothing. :)
09:51:17 <Arafangion> __ln__: I've seen pictures of markets in vietnam, where...
09:51:25 <Arafangion> The market itself is on the train line, which is IN USE!
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09:52:44 <Arafangion> WHen the train comes, they lower the flaps, and move the food and baskets away from the line, although they clearly know excactly how big the train is.
09:52:59 <Arafangion> If anyone lowers the train carriage by say, 2", I'm sure hell would break loose!
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10:00:28 <Rubidium> hi KenjiE20, regarding the admin protocol bugs. I can't find anything obviously wrong with the code at the server side for FS#4796 and FS#4803. Could you give me the code you've got to reproduce the issue?
10:03:28 <KenjiE20> Rubidium: 4803 sems to be okay in trunk now
10:06:31 <planetmaker> but... did anything in the source change?
10:07:37 <Arafangion> Do you guys have a web interface for svn?
10:07:49 <KenjiE20> dunno, but stable 1.1.2 it manifests, in r22950 it doesn't
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10:12:20 <frosch123> Arafangion: hg.openttd.org
10:12:48 <frosch123> but hg.openttd.org is the best interface :)
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10:39:50 <peter1138> (cgit obviously, not the raw git-over-http interface)
10:40:39 <peter1138> actually, i don't think she did
10:42:11 <planetmaker> so if neither she nor he said it, it must have said it.
10:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> * Arafangion doesn't think he will use ImageShack again, the images are blurry <-- afair there is a checkbox "do not resize image" on upload
11:02:51 <Terkhen> either I duplicate code, or I use a magic pointer for pointing to both towns and industries
11:03:36 <frosch123> add a shared base class for town and industry?
11:04:09 <Terkhen> hmmm... a new class just for a single method? it feels like too much just for this
11:04:28 <Terkhen> also, inheritance tends to affect performance
11:04:32 <frosch123> if you thing it remains with one method :p
11:04:41 <Terkhen> what else they could share?
11:04:55 <frosch123> everything which has to do with subsidies?
11:05:03 <frosch123> including load/save of that
11:06:01 <Terkhen> it feels like too much work just for two pointers
11:06:21 <frosch123> no idea what you want to do with them
11:06:39 <Terkhen> FindSubsidyCargoRoute uses two pointers to industry, src and dst
11:06:39 <frosch123> of course you can also just add a struct with one TownID and one IndustryID
11:06:46 <frosch123> and assert if both are assigned or whatever
11:07:05 <Terkhen> src and dst now can be of type town or industry
11:07:27 <Terkhen> hmm... I remember seeing such a struct for something else somewhere
11:07:28 <frosch123> then add src_town, src_ind, dst_town, dst_ind?
11:07:43 <Terkhen> yes, that would be duplicating code :P
11:08:01 <frosch123> well, what code? :p
11:08:15 * Terkhen goes back to finish the code
11:08:28 <Terkhen> right now I'm in the middle of it :P
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11:23:45 <Terkhen> hmm... should we allow passenger subsidies with industry as a source?
11:24:17 <planetmaker> for ECS it makes sense
11:24:27 <planetmaker> for oil rigs? Not sure
11:24:53 <Terkhen> true, I forgot about oil rigs
11:24:59 <Terkhen> right now there is a check to prevent it
11:25:04 <Terkhen> probably because of oil rigs
11:25:51 <planetmaker> but subsidies for passengers to oil rigs might be fun tbh
11:26:35 <Terkhen> passenger subsidies to industries should be allowed IMO
11:26:46 <Terkhen> it only takes into account industry acceptance anyways, never industry tile acceptance
11:26:57 <Terkhen> so you will not get a subsidy for taking all the population of a town into a steel mill
11:26:58 <planetmaker> yes. I'd see no problem to get a subsidy to transport passengers to and from a remote oil rig
11:27:19 <planetmaker> that's the case I'd be concerned about indeed
11:27:29 <planetmaker> but well. It's a museum steel mill
11:27:42 <planetmaker> with a popular and successful outreach manager
11:28:10 <frosch123> oilrigs do not process passengers either :)
11:28:17 <Terkhen> there was a steel mill on the Simpsons that accepted tourists...
11:28:51 <planetmaker> Terkhen: our local steel mill offers also guided tours...
11:29:00 <planetmaker> and it's one of the biggest ones actually
11:29:01 <andythenorth> so...if you play with 'engines never expire' you'll end up with a lot of boats in FISH
11:29:30 <frosch123> planetmaker: steelmills are not exactly "local"
11:29:45 <planetmaker> frosch123: but Salzgitter is less than half an hour here
11:29:57 <planetmaker> and I can see it (at night) when they open the furnances
11:29:57 <frosch123> yeah, i was there as well :)
11:30:10 <Terkhen> and true, oil rigs do not accept passengers as an industry either
11:30:18 <Terkhen> so... no need to worry there :)
11:30:34 <Terkhen> check the industry chain
11:30:48 <planetmaker> hm. Interesting. So they just generate them?
11:31:13 <Terkhen> they accept it because of their industry tiles too, but since subsidies only check industry acceptance/production, you will not get subsidies to deliver passengers there
11:31:17 <Terkhen> only to take them elsewhere
11:32:45 <frosch123> planetmaker: tile acceptance = station nearby accepts them; industry acceptance = industry processes the stuff
11:33:23 <planetmaker> Hm, but oil rigs produce passengers, do they?
11:33:43 <Terkhen> currently, the subsidy code limits cargo subsidies with a town destination to towns with a population greater than 900
11:33:48 <frosch123> yes they procude them, the tiles accept them, but it does not process passengers into oil
11:34:03 <Terkhen> does this makes sense, given that this also handles mail subsidies?
11:34:13 <Terkhen> I wonder why it has a limit
11:35:20 <planetmaker> Terkhen: presumably small villages don't accept much <whatever>
11:35:48 <Terkhen> hmm... but now I know exactly which cargos can be accepted by a given town
11:36:02 <planetmaker> which doesn't fit a pattern
11:38:33 <frosch123> Terkhen: german has a way to combine two words into one which does the tell the direction of the implications between them. "dogsnack" might be a "snack for dogs", or a "snack consisting of dogs"; "babyoil" might be "oil for babies" or "oil made of babies".
11:42:43 <planetmaker> would win a crack pot price for sure
11:45:36 <Terkhen> I haven't read the book, I know the term from seeing lots of references :P
11:46:26 <planetmaker> the book is well worth reading
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12:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> man this google spreadsheet is seriously memleaking
12:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or it's firefox in general...
12:03:06 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: generally the number of bugs growth quadratically compared to the version number
12:03:27 <frosch123> so, consider the progess of firefox in the last year :)
12:03:52 <frosch123> ms otoh did it right from 2000 to 8
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12:06:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you need to use the google native client for google docs
12:06:13 <andythenorth> it mem leaks horribly in FF and webkit
12:06:22 <andythenorth> webkit / safari /s
12:06:36 <andythenorth> which is interesting, because chrome uses webkit afaik
12:26:11 <andythenorth> ok, so now I have 5 generations for one of the freighters in FISH
12:26:21 <andythenorth> each is a unique model so it can be replaced / upgraded
12:26:34 <andythenorth> the graphics for each will be different
12:26:38 <andythenorth> what else should change?
12:26:46 <andythenorth> speed? capacity? cost? running cost?
12:27:00 <andythenorth> linear improvement for each generation?
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12:35:47 <andythenorth> nobody cares apparently :D
12:37:46 <planetmaker> capacity should increase
12:37:56 <planetmaker> as with increased playing time industry output will be increased
12:38:35 <andythenorth> I think it will just be slow and annoying from 1870-1900
12:42:13 <Pinkbeast> Keep 'em cheap early, it's hard enough to make money in 1870.
12:42:29 * andythenorth adds one ship that will fill 64 NARS 2 box cars :)
12:43:52 <Elukka> not sure about capacity increases
12:44:12 <Elukka> ships of all sizes will be needed at all times, though maybe not the biggest ones at the start
12:45:34 <andythenorth> game needs progression
12:45:37 <andythenorth> otherwise it's boring
12:45:48 <andythenorth> even predictable linear progression is better than none
12:45:55 <Elukka> sure, but i don't think increasing capacity is necessarily the way to go
12:45:56 * andythenorth ponders regression - ships get smaller and slower :P
12:46:15 <andythenorth> Elukka: feel free to make suggestions
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12:47:42 <Elukka> speed is an obvious one, running costs too
12:48:03 <Elukka> i think capacity improvements should come in the sense of entire new lines of bigger ships, not new generations of existing ones
12:48:38 <andythenorth> so ships come in classes - relating to size
12:48:41 <Elukka> ie if a small freighter in 1900 carries 100 tonnes, a ship of the same size should still carry 100 tons in the year 2000
12:48:55 <andythenorth> for gameplay reasons? Or to match RL?
12:49:09 <Elukka> but in 2000 you can get humongous bulk freighters and container ships that simply didn't exist before
12:49:26 <Alberth> flying ships of course
12:49:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: they are zepellins :P
12:50:05 <andythenorth> Elukka: it's a nice idea, but the upper size of ships in TTD is capped quite firmly
12:50:15 <Alberth> yeah, boats are obsolete, zeppelins are the future!
12:51:06 <andythenorth> so which way should costs go? Up? Down? Or level?
12:52:26 <Elukka> well by humongous i mean more the cargo capacity
12:53:43 <andythenorth> the biggest FISH ship will have 1408t, and is a large jump from the previous model which was 1080t
12:53:50 <andythenorth> it appears around 1997
12:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: same way as rockets are obsolete, and shuttles are the future?
12:58:01 <Alberth> nah, we'll have space elevators
12:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we have wingsuit jumping, why would we need intergalactic travel? :p
13:05:28 <andythenorth> it would be nice if....instead of dicking around with prop 1B and some kind of pseudo bubble sort running only in my brain...
13:05:39 <andythenorth> ...there was just a newgrf prop which was a list structure of IDs
13:05:49 <andythenorth> (prop 1B is menu order for ships)
13:06:03 <andythenorth> hysterical raisins no doubt
13:07:50 <andythenorth> doesn't bloody work as expected either
13:09:12 <andythenorth> so I have 5 vehicles gen1-gen5
13:09:29 <andythenorth> for hysterical raisins on my side the IDs are out of sequence
13:09:38 <andythenorth> I can't fix that and maintain savegame compatibility
13:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, i know the problem
13:09:53 <andythenorth> and I can't put them in the right order.
13:10:03 <andythenorth> 1B doesn't work as advertised
13:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure you just did not read the advertisment right, but i'm equally sure that it's not a good way to handle things
13:12:28 <andythenorth> so the correct order would be (pseudo IDs): 02, 03, 04, 01, 05
13:12:41 <andythenorth> so prop 1B for 01 is set to 05
13:12:53 <andythenorth> for 04 it's set to 01 etc
13:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you that prop 1B is executed in the order that it appears in the grf
13:14:19 <andythenorth> so I have to put my code out of order :)
13:14:24 <andythenorth> this is going to be fun :o
13:14:37 * andythenorth will have to leave lots of comments behind
13:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause> only the parts that set 1B, not any other parts
13:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so basically after all your normal code, you handle prop 1B separately
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13:16:04 <andythenorth> I'll put it all in one include file
13:16:07 <andythenorth> that's quite logical
13:25:21 * andythenorth wants engines expire to be both true and false at once
13:25:45 <andythenorth> toggle in the buy menu?
13:25:49 <andythenorth> 'current models'
13:25:54 <andythenorth> 'historical models'
13:26:36 <Terkhen> new filter in the buy menu: vehicles newer than X
13:27:16 <Arafangion> I think historical engines should become progressively more expensive, if you want to be realistic. ;)
13:27:19 <andythenorth> Terkhen: just use the model life
13:27:50 <Elukka> considering historical engines are generally repaired and not built from scratch, i'm not so sure
13:34:36 <Arafangion> Elukka: Only if you kept them.
13:35:08 <Elukka> i wouldn't think that the locomotives you specifically built and used are literally the only ones in the ttd world
13:35:41 <Arafangion> Elukka: So, you want someone else's prized relic?
13:36:08 <Elukka> i'd just keep the expiry dates and original prices, honestly
13:36:44 <Arafangion> What about running expenses?
13:37:01 <Arafangion> Although I suppose that's very debatable.
13:38:09 <Elukka> keep them too because it's not like it's going to make a significant difference in game
13:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> some museum vehicles actually take over commercial transports
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13:48:44 <Danio> Can anyone tell me what I might be doing wrong here? http://minus.com/lWexVmGNTPSc0 Train 14 is just supposed to go to the station on the right, but is instead just looping around. The signals on the right are two-way path signals.
13:49:56 <Elukka> danio: looks like you haven't electrified the station area
13:51:42 <Danio> Elukka: Yes! Thank you!
13:52:01 <Elukka> i do that all the time and spend a good while pondering what i did wrong :P
14:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> usually happens on overbuilding the station for me...
14:03:45 <Elukka> had a go at weathering the cab
14:04:31 <Korenn> Elukka: looks cool, but you'll have to do the plastic bits at the bottom too
14:05:16 <Elukka> just haven't gotten around to it
14:05:39 <Korenn> do you usually paint them yourself? or just for detail?
14:07:52 <Elukka> i'm not confident enough with my skills to do any permanent weathering, so that's pastel chalk and mostly watercolor, of all things
14:07:58 <Elukka> i'm surprised watercolor worked out
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14:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: then check how it looks after 3 months, or 5 years :)
14:26:55 <Elukka> there probably won't be much left in 5 years
14:26:59 <Elukka> can always reapply it or use other methods
14:27:49 <Elukka> the main problem i can see is cleaning dust off it
14:39:46 <Eddi|zuHause> use an air filter so dust doesn't gather :)
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15:47:30 <_maddy> to make industries increase production, is it better to always have train waiting at the station, or let some material pile up between pickups
15:49:23 <_maddy> so better rating means industry is always more likely to increase production? for some reason mine usually decreases if I keep trains waiting (probably just bad luck with randomness)
15:49:47 <Elukka> better rating increases the chances of production increases, yes
15:50:05 <Ammler> Elukka: how would it be less silly?
15:50:32 <Elukka> why would an industry demand that there always be a train standing on the platform?
15:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> well, andythenorth could finalize the new firs supplies algorithm
15:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that would be less silly, combined with new station rating algorithm
15:50:55 <Ammler> for the industry, the cargo is gone
15:51:25 <Ammler> so that is definitively better
15:51:29 <Elukka> there's a new station rating algorythm?
15:51:37 <Elukka> ammler the whole system is a bit silly
15:52:58 <__ln__> Elukka: your spelling of 'algorythm' is not english.
15:53:06 <Elukka> ...that would be a typo, yes
15:53:28 <Elukka> it's not any other language either as far as i know
15:54:43 <Ammler> "english" isn't English either :-)
15:56:43 <Elukka> 'english only' doesn't mean YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO TYPO WORDS, IT SOUNDS FOREIGN
15:57:30 <Ammler> why should it allow to mistype?
15:58:32 <Elukka> can you rephrase that sentence because the structure isn't really english
15:59:07 <__ln__> if the topic doesn't explicitly allow typos, they must be forbidden.
15:59:28 <planetmaker> New sentences start with a capital character
15:59:39 <Elukka> Sentences end with a punctuation mark.
15:59:58 <planetmaker> , but my sentence wasn't finished. ;-)
16:00:04 <Elukka> ln you've got to be trolling
16:00:08 <Elukka> please tell me you're trolling
16:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Interpunctation does never start on the new line.
16:01:33 <andythenorth> the new algorythm is FIRS specific
16:01:56 <planetmaker> But Algol isn't FIRS-specific.
16:02:17 <Elukka> andy i'm okay with that since i'm gonna use FIRS :P
16:02:53 <planetmaker> Elukka: actually... It's two stars to be precise ;-)
16:03:51 <planetmaker> it's the prototype of the ... algol variables ;-)
16:04:50 <Elukka> trivia: nu scorpii is likely a septuple star
16:05:53 <Elukka> my brain is dispensing more trivia and wants to tell you that algol means 'the ghoul' which is a word originating from arabic
16:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of words starting with al- are loanwords from arabic
16:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> especially spanish is full of those
16:06:32 <Elukka> they removed the 'al' from 'ghoul' in english
16:06:45 <Elukka> although there are alghouls in the witcher game :P
16:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> al is actually the arabic article
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16:07:21 <Elukka> they're the the ghouls
16:11:24 <planetmaker> رأس الغول let's spell it properly ;-)
16:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's actually three stars
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16:16:28 <planetmaker> yes, just found out that, too
16:17:15 <Elukka> almost all of the non-boring star names are arabic
16:19:07 <Eddi|zuHause> well, lots of modern astronomy is based on arabic research...
16:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> after europe fell into the dark ages, the arabic world was the center of science
16:19:48 <planetmaker> yup. They were the maintainers of knowledge through the middle ages
16:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that was before europe revived itself and in turn the arabic world fell into a dark age...
16:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but that may very well swing backwards over the next 100 years :)
16:22:58 <Elu> my connection sucks at the moment
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16:30:27 <Elu> Eddi|zuHause: do you have any reference for the length of prussian tank cars?
16:30:53 <Elukka> gonna do something that looks right then
16:45:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23030 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4796]: always show a chat message and send an admin packet when a new company is made
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16:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> nml bails on "var[0x61, 0, 0xFFFFFFFF, date_of_last_service]" with "Variable parameter must be a constant number"
16:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> now i need to make a lookup table for variable names and their numbers to work around that...
17:00:39 <Alberth> you can also hack nml :)
17:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... it's even more complicated...
17:05:36 <Eddi|zuHause> since i have to mask out the right bits...
17:15:52 <planetmaker> jo, this is nice. Variable 0x80 for canals seems to return height in increments of 1 instead of increments of 8 like all other variables which report tile height...
17:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the right time to switch it for all other variables :)
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17:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to the idea that you can append parameters to any variable, so i could write date_of_last_service(-1) and it expands to var61
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18:42:35 <andythenorth> in the game - who pays the cost of loading/unloading ships?
18:52:30 <andythenorth> I am thinking about variable running cost for ships
18:52:45 <andythenorth> but the greatest cost of break-bulk shipping is cargo handling
18:52:53 <andythenorth> so do costs go up or down whilst loading/unloading?
18:57:30 <planetmaker> they're paid by the person paying the transport
18:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's a running cost callback. but unfortunately there is no variable for "is currently loading"
18:58:31 <Alberth> if you pay for loading, you have an incentive to minimize it
18:58:38 <planetmaker> they're transit items
19:04:20 * andythenorth thinks ships are cheaper to run while loading
19:04:36 <andythenorth> either extend running cost cb, or just use speed as a proxy
19:04:50 <andythenorth> or don't bother with variable costs
19:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there would need to be a difference whether the ship is just sitting at the dock, or actually loaded something the last X ticks
19:08:58 <andythenorth> assuming shipper pays lading cost, both situations are same to me
19:09:21 <andythenorth> ship at dock = reduced crew, no fuel burnt
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19:19:55 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh... random action type 84 doesn't really fit into my schema...
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19:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh... i broke it :(
19:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> current cets with this patch: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/random_switch.diff
19:29:00 <planetmaker> nice. Better post it to the bug tracker, though. Yexo and Hirundo seem to be afk
19:29:21 <Yexo> anything important I missed today?
19:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: a critical nml bug 5 minutes ago :)
19:29:43 <planetmaker> I wondered about the value range of var 0x80 of canals
19:30:00 <planetmaker> but those two things are mostly all
19:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess nobody was insane enough to use random action type 84 before...
19:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll open a ticket
19:30:38 <Elukka> what does cets need a patch for+
19:31:02 <Yexo> I know Hirundo did plan at some point to remove random_action completely and replace it by something slightly different
19:31:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that patch is a not-yet-checked-in modification
19:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i didn't want to check in something that is known to throw compiler errors
19:33:03 <Elukka> what's the baureihe A2?
19:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks kinda disputed whether it was called "A2" or "AT3"
19:46:14 <Elukka> i see it looks just as weird in real life
19:46:25 <yrol> i have a slight problem here with an AI that has autoreplaced its locomotives with a 1HP snowplough and thought i ask here if someone would know how to fix that
19:47:33 <andythenorth> FISH ships will use CC hulls from 1870 onwards. Completely unrealistic. Should I care?
19:48:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sails in CC :)
19:48:20 <andythenorth> no sailing ships
19:48:27 <yrol> Eddi|zuHause, hmmm ( makes looky looky sounds)
19:48:34 <Elukka> maybe you could find some way to include company colors without coloring the whole hull
19:48:45 <Elukka> but then i don't like company colors anyhow
19:50:00 <andythenorth> I'm doing it because I can't be arsed to redraw 8 angles on 2 large hulls
19:50:04 <yrol> so there is no immediate fix for my problem? cant u somehow take over the AI and reverse the replacement, or... save, then reload without the set that supplies that snowplough?
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19:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yrol: you can cheat yourself into the company
19:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yrol: but that may break more things that you fix
19:51:14 <yrol> because, frankly, if it cant be fixed ingame or so, my game is pretty much ruined as other AIs certainly also would do such replacement and thusly ruin the whole game
19:51:46 <yrol> nods i see. i have to start anew then, i think
19:52:01 <Yexo> yrol: it depends on which AI you use
19:52:17 <andythenorth> Elukka: you're still at the enthusiastic phase of spriting
19:52:17 <Yexo> if other companies are controlled by different AIs, only the one company you have now is ruined
19:52:34 <andythenorth> rather than the, "oh, why did I start this task?" phase
19:53:11 <Elukka> considering how slowly i get things done i might be in the second phase already :P
19:53:28 <andythenorth> I like drawing buildings, but vehicles are a massive chore
19:53:43 <andythenorth> I draw it, then I have to draw the other 7 angles :P
19:53:50 <Elukka> yeah since you have to draw the same thing many times
19:53:52 <andythenorth> any chance we could switch to a 3D engine?
19:54:20 <Elukka> ship sprites are big enough that it just might make a bit of sense to render a 3D model and overpaint it?
19:54:23 <Yexo> you could model the vehicles in a 3D program and render them?
19:54:33 <andythenorth> Elukka: that's how most of FISH is done
19:54:40 <Yexo> zephyris has done so with great success for grvts
19:54:43 <andythenorth> drawing hull shapes by hand is a no-go
19:55:05 <Elukka> i don't really see how it'd be of much use with road vehicles or trains though
19:55:10 <Elukka> i'd be interested in knowing zephyris' methods
19:55:28 <Yexo> he uses quite a few scripts all merged together
19:55:31 <yrol> Yexo, only the admiral AI did that, with all its trains ( some arent replaced yet, i guess, because all the other trains block the tracks with their snailish manners.
19:55:45 <Yexo> I have an (old) copy of them somewhere, but not sure if he'd like me to distribute that
19:55:50 <andythenorth> 3D pre-processor for nml?
19:56:35 <Yexo> that has nothing to do with nml. It could work the same way as that a lot of png files in the opengfx repo are automatically generated from gimp files (which nml can't read)
19:57:09 <andythenorth> so maybe part of the makefile framework...
19:57:17 <andythenorth> I was thinking it would happen at compile time :)
19:57:23 <andythenorth> of course, then it would take ages
19:57:42 <Elukka> the problem i'd have is how do you make a renderer make pixel arty stuff
19:57:46 <Yexo> as long as it's only done when the model files changes that doesn't matter
19:58:08 <andythenorth> Elukka: you'd need a very carefully tweaked renderer
19:58:23 <Elukka> even without any texturing, just having the shape would make things a lot faster
19:58:34 <Elukka> i haven't a clue how to tweak it like that :D
19:58:43 <andythenorth> it would need a custom shader
19:58:59 <Elukka> all i can do is make models and pick some options and click 'render'
19:59:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, building OpenGFX from graphics source now takes indeed ages
20:00:07 <planetmaker> if you generate all pngs which are feasible to be generated
20:00:28 <planetmaker> any other method to generate graphics files could easily be included as well
20:00:53 <yrol> okies, thanks then. and big thanks for integrating the new station GUI in release :o)))
20:01:06 <planetmaker> e.g. for houses Zephyris has a nice ImageJ script collection
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20:22:48 <MNIM> dude, andy, are you gonna build that much?
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20:24:15 * andythenorth needs a coal sink in FIRS, like a power station or something :P
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20:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> let houses built before 1970 accept coal
20:36:58 <Elukka> why not just have a power plant
20:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: because he removed them
20:37:22 <Elukka> i know, but i don't get why :D
20:40:45 <Rubidium> it's so bad that it puts CO2 and nuclear material into the atmosphere ;)
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20:43:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23031 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#4804]: for the admin "bots" there was no distinction between bankruptcy and manual removal of companies even though the API suggested that
20:46:10 <Elukka> coal's pretty bad, yes
20:46:17 <Elukka> it's a thing that's used though
20:47:00 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: were the cets templates hand drawn or rendered?
20:47:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I only need this since the ratings algorithm got changed...
20:47:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: hand drawn
20:47:55 * andythenorth has a map full of insane amounts of cargo waiting
20:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: lower initial production :)
20:48:43 <andythenorth> it's not that high anyway
20:48:55 <andythenorth> supplies algorithm :P
20:49:20 <andythenorth> waiting on the maker of planets :)
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20:57:41 <Elukka> what kind of perspective does openttd use?
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21:00:49 <SpComb> it does the whole 60° / 120° thing, iirc
21:03:07 <Elukka> well turns out i haven't a clue how i'd coerce kerkythea into actually rendering things with the right projection from the right angles
21:03:39 <Elukka> apparently someone's figured it out for blender though...
21:10:22 <Elukka> well, i guess i'll look into that tomorrow
22:04:44 <__ln__> hmmm, i logged into my cell phone as root through ssh. maybe i should disable root logins.
22:32:26 <z-MaTRiX> __ln__<< maybe you should disable unencrypted dataflow in the newtork direction
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