IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-15
00:10:51 <uktab> Can anyone tell me if there's a rotate screen button so I can see behind buildings etc. pls?
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00:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> use the X key to make buildings transparent
00:11:48 <uktab> Thanks Eddi :)
00:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (or Ctrl+X to have more settings)
00:12:22 <uktab> Thanks !
00:24:55 <uktab> why do my $ go down by 3 every second?
00:25:10 <uktab> vehicle running costs?
00:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that, yes. you can get a more detailed report when clicking on the money icon at the top
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00:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> whoa... another guy who plays this mysterious version 1.1.13
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00:43:26 <uktab> how can I flatten land to make my raiway track go through it ?
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00:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> with the landscape tool
00:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, too late
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06:40:41 <planetmaker> moin
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07:01:01 <Terkhen> good morning
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07:40:06 <Rubidium> Korenn: the town demands is in violation with GPL. It misses at least COPYING. You also ship regression which makes little to no sense for the end users
07:43:09 <Terkhen> use make bundle :)
07:44:01 <planetmaker> hm... all people notice concurrently :-P
07:44:55 <Alberth> with interleaving concurrency semantics, yeah :)
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07:54:50 * Arafangion peeks in.
07:55:31 <Arafangion> 64x64 maps are difficult.
07:56:01 <planetmaker> they are
07:56:10 <Arafangion> When one has every cargo transported, it seems there is little point to the game.
07:56:14 <planetmaker> unless you set running costs to virtually 0
07:56:27 <Arafangion> Oh, no, normal game. :)
07:56:39 <planetmaker> fund new industries. Grow towns. Transport more
07:56:49 <planetmaker> improve station rating. Get a score of 1000
07:57:00 <Arafangion> It's just in the year 2260, and my industries are going nuts with the amount of cargo they produce - I can't seem to tranport it all with my trains. :)
07:57:15 <Arafangion> planetmaker: Impossible to get a score of 1000, isn't it? (For these maps)
07:57:17 <planetmaker> so it's not yet "done" ;-)
07:57:18 <__ln__> fund the Apollo program and colonize the moon.
07:57:26 <__ln__> hmm, might not be possible.
07:57:45 <planetmaker> I haven't played for the score on 64**2 admittedly
07:57:49 <Rubidium> it's not impossible
07:57:56 <planetmaker> but it's a challenge
07:57:59 <Arafangion> Besides, my stations are 4-tiles in length (I don't have enough track room for longer), and I can't transport all the cargo!
07:58:07 <Rubidium> improbable is a better word ;)
07:58:18 <Arafangion> (I think I did 200 years ago, but then the industries conspired to produce more!)
07:58:44 <Arafangion> Rubidium: With such a small map, how would you get meet the 'profit' goal?
07:59:34 <Rubidium> with efficiency
08:00:01 <Rubidium> e.g. try to make money both ways
08:00:29 <Rubidium> time waiting to a bare minimum, while still maintaining station ratings
08:00:48 <Arafangion> How should I show a screenshot of the game?
08:01:01 <Arafangion> Getting the screenshot's easy, it's putting it "out there" that's not!
08:01:44 <Terkhen> use imagebin or some website like that
08:04:46 <Arafangion>
08:04:51 <Arafangion> That seems to do it.
08:05:24 <Arafangion> I'm not too sure about my intersection designs, but they seem to handle the load very well.
08:05:29 <Korenn> Arafangion: if you have the money, raise up all the sea to land level
08:05:41 <Korenn> that will allow more industry to appear
08:06:11 <Arafangion> Korenn: Interesting idea.
08:06:51 <Arafangion> Just raised half the land.
08:06:55 <Arafangion> I now have no money. :)
08:07:20 <Arafangion> That oilfield is new.
08:07:40 <Arafangion> I don't think Fardtown lakeside can handle any more trains, though.
08:08:04 * Arafangion puts in a new station between the power and oil refinery, pending more income.
08:09:42 * Arafangion doesn't think he will use ImageShack again, the images are blurry.
08:10:10 <Korenn> Rubidium: anything other than COPYING required?
08:10:50 <planetmaker> as said: language files are specific to a build
08:11:05 <Korenn> planetmaker: yeah, that comment of yours made no sense
08:11:08 <Korenn> but I already replied to it
08:11:18 <planetmaker> it doesn't make sense to distribute without
08:11:32 <Korenn> nobody ever implied that was the intent
08:11:34 <planetmaker> ... so you don't understand it, thus it doesn't make sense?
08:11:41 <Korenn> read the post please
08:11:47 <Arafangion> Isn't that the definition of "made no sense"?
08:12:22 * Lachie trudges in the door from work
08:12:37 <planetmaker> then learn to express yourself properly, Korenn
08:12:43 <Korenn> it's clear as day
08:12:48 <Korenn> you didn't read properly ;)
08:13:00 <Arafangion> I must say, I'm glad to have found this channel. :)
08:13:29 <planetmaker> thank you, I can read just fine. Your words are ambigeous at best, Korenn
08:13:47 <Arafangion> *ambigious.
08:14:12 <Korenn> I directly replied to a comment that Lord Aro made. You took it to be a comment to something else (I guess myself?). Not my fault.
08:14:17 <planetmaker> yes, mr smart***
08:14:54 <planetmaker> you replied to "missing lang files?" with "no I shouldn't use 'make bundle'" Oh right
08:15:12 <Lachie> Arafangion: since you're being pedantic, it's spelt ambiguous.
08:15:32 <Arafangion> Lachie: Ah, thanks. :/
08:15:33 <Korenn> right, so you a) didn't read the second sentence, b) didn't read the rest post before or bothered to read my comments in the OP.
08:15:46 <Korenn> since I had *just* posted a new zip wiht the lang files
08:15:56 <Korenn> and lord aro responded to taht
08:16:09 <Lachie> Arafangion: like to dish it out but can't take it back? :P
08:16:44 <Arafangion> Lachie: No, it's good to correct spelling and grammar. :) It's frustrating as heck when people don't do that.
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08:18:00 <planetmaker> Korenn: and still Lord Aro is totally right. ;-)
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08:18:15 <Korenn> I never said he wasn't.
08:18:18 <planetmaker> and the bundle I downloaded did not (yet) contain your (silently) updated thing
08:18:28 <Korenn> though I refuse to install MingW and fuck up my development environment again
08:18:32 <planetmaker> so how can I know you update something somewhere else when you don't say so?
08:18:40 <Arafangion> Korenn: You don't run your windows in a VM?
08:18:58 <Korenn> lol, no
08:19:03 <planetmaker> But I should remember to be quite sparingly with advice also in your case. It's obviously not welcome
08:19:07 <Korenn> planetmaker: <- how is that not saying?
08:19:28 <Arafangion> Korenn: Then messing up your environment is a concern, indeed. :)
08:19:48 <Korenn> advice given from not actually reading the thread isn't appreciated, that's correct.
08:19:56 <Korenn> since it tends to be out of context
08:19:58 <planetmaker> that's out of my screen when reading 'newest messages' ;-)
08:20:20 <planetmaker> good good. I'll just remember your name ;-)
08:20:21 <Korenn> but I'm adding the COPYING license now
08:20:49 <planetmaker> yes, do that. technically readme would need to go, too. As gpl requires credits ;-)
08:21:03 <planetmaker> and when you're at it: add the usual documentation a bundle ships with
08:21:50 <Korenn> I think technically the credits are already in the game itself
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08:22:08 <Korenn> but I'll add those too while I'm at it
08:24:26 <Terkhen> Korenn:
08:24:33 <Terkhen> that should be enough to run Makefile.msvc
08:24:44 <Arafangion> Korenn: What is it you're doing? Making a new win32 version?
08:25:00 <Korenn> Arafangion:
08:25:09 <Korenn> Terkhen: I'll have a look at that for next time
08:25:32 <Korenn> as long as make bundle doesn't also do a compile / link task
08:25:49 <Arafangion> Ah, interesting - that's similar to what some multiplayer servers require.
08:25:51 <Korenn> and the directories for the binaries all match exactly in win / linux
08:25:59 <Rubidium> if you use Makefile.msvc it doesn't do any compilation
08:26:09 <Terkhen> Makefile.msvc only creates a bundle
08:26:14 <Korenn> ok
08:26:18 <Arafangion> Made it much more enjoyable.
08:26:20 <Terkhen> over a source checkout compiled by MSVC
08:29:09 <Rubidium> and be aware that you have to pass PLATFORM=win32 (or PLATFORM=win64 for 64bits MSVC binaries) for it to work right
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08:30:27 <Rubidium> so, e.g. make -f Makefile.msvc PLATFORM=win32 bundle_zip (copies the objs/win32/release/openttd.exe to bin/openttd, then constructs the bundle and finally creates a .zip of it)
08:30:47 <Korenn> Rubidium: I'll add that to a post-build step, thanks
08:31:03 <Korenn> wait, 'creates a zip' ?
08:31:06 <Korenn> using what tool?
08:31:19 <Rubidium> zip
08:31:25 <Korenn> FileNotFound
08:31:27 <Korenn> ;)
08:31:40 <Rubidium> if you do just bundle (not bundle_zip) it only creates the bundle
08:31:47 <Korenn> ah ok :)
08:32:07 <Rubidium> though there are many other bundle_* "targets"
08:33:34 <Terkhen> it probably uses zip for bundle_zip:
08:33:55 <Korenn> Arafangion: yep, it does add to the fun. And this way, on our own server, we make all cargoes in FIRS useful and challenging to create :)
08:34:16 <Korenn> Terkhen: I'll just stick to creating the nonzipped bundle and use my own tools after
08:35:41 <Arafangion> Nice. :)
08:35:54 * Arafangion thinks it's absurd that windows doesn't have a convenient .zip implementation.
08:36:07 <planetmaker> it does.
08:36:10 <planetmaker> but not command-line
08:36:22 <Terkhen> it isn't convenient either
08:36:29 <planetmaker> :-D
08:36:48 <planetmaker> enough for the rare occasions I use windoze
08:37:05 <planetmaker> to zip a folder and be done
08:37:21 <Arafangion> planetmaker: It's not even accessible via .NET
08:40:00 <Korenn> the built-in zip is shite. I prefer third party tools like winrar or 7zip
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08:47:12 * Arafangion increases "station spread" because he can't join stations.
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08:50:19 <Korenn> Terkhen: nope, that make fails horribly
08:51:01 <Korenn> 'sed' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
08:51:01 <Korenn> The process tried to write to a nonexistent pipe.
08:51:01 <Korenn> 'AWK' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
08:51:01 <Korenn> 'cut' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
08:51:01 <Korenn> 'cp' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
08:54:28 <Arafangion> I think those are all provided as part of mingw, and other programs such as git.
08:55:12 <Terkhen> it does not fail horribly, you are missing more packages
08:55:16 <Terkhen> you can grab them from that same page
08:58:33 <Arafangion> Fascinating, one *can* have a crashed train in a depot.
08:58:43 <Terkhen> :P
08:59:26 <Arafangion> And those trains were over $13m each. :(
08:59:32 <Arafangion> Expensive mistake.
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09:01:21 <Elukka> it does make for amusing error messages
09:01:22 <Elukka>
09:02:59 <Arafangion> A bug!
09:03:05 <Arafangion> One should be able to sell them regardless.
09:03:18 <Arafangion> I sold my car for $100, for instance.
09:03:30 <__ln__> A good salesman would even sell a train that doesn't exist.
09:03:56 <Arafangion> __ln__: My car was a Hyundai, and I sold it to Ford. :)
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09:17:36 <peter1138> never mind that a slight nudge kills everyone and writes off the whole train
09:19:55 <Terkhen> oh, I misread "slight nuke"
09:20:36 <PeanutHorst> that would do it too
09:21:07 <planetmaker> :-D
09:22:53 * Arafangion wishes he had time to contribute to this game, it seems awesome.
09:23:37 <planetmaker> <-- peter1138 for your further testing
09:24:23 <planetmaker> you have time for what you take your time ;-)
09:25:39 <Arafangion> planetmaker: And right now it's about to be consumed by guacomole and more openttd playing. ;)
09:26:37 <Arafangion> The "GUI redevelopment" sounds intruguing.
09:30:15 <planetmaker> peter1138: and the arrows are now correct ;-)
09:30:18 <peter1138> heh
09:30:26 <peter1138> i'll take a look later
09:30:31 <planetmaker> I wonder though why the scrollbars use the text arrows and not the sprite arrows
09:30:43 <peter1138> raisins, hysterical ones
09:31:07 <planetmaker> the text arrows are differently aligned. And it shows at this size
09:31:13 <peter1138> one of my patches switches them so that alignment is better
09:31:16 <peter1138> so yeah
09:31:19 <planetmaker> :-)
09:31:31 <peter1138> makes it consistent with hscrollbars too
09:31:56 <planetmaker> yeah
09:33:02 <planetmaker> When I get the remaining sprites from Zephyris... we'd have a new version
09:44:38 <__ln__>
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09:51:10 <Arafangion> __ln__: That's nothing. :)
09:51:17 <Arafangion> __ln__: I've seen pictures of markets in vietnam, where...
09:51:25 <Arafangion> The market itself is on the train line, which is IN USE!
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09:52:44 <Arafangion> WHen the train comes, they lower the flaps, and move the food and baskets away from the line, although they clearly know excactly how big the train is.
09:52:59 <Arafangion> If anyone lowers the train carriage by say, 2", I'm sure hell would break loose!
09:53:16 <Terkhen> hi frosch123
09:53:27 <frosch123> morning terkhen :)
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10:00:28 <Rubidium> hi KenjiE20, regarding the admin protocol bugs. I can't find anything obviously wrong with the code at the server side for FS#4796 and FS#4803. Could you give me the code you've got to reproduce the issue?
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10:03:28 <KenjiE20> Rubidium: 4803 sems to be okay in trunk now
10:06:31 <planetmaker> but... did anything in the source change?
10:07:37 <Arafangion> Do you guys have a web interface for svn?
10:07:49 <KenjiE20> dunno, but stable 1.1.2 it manifests, in r22950 it doesn't
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10:12:20 <frosch123> Arafangion:
10:12:29 <frosch123>
10:12:38 <frosch123>
10:12:48 <frosch123> but is the best interface :)
10:12:48 <Rubidium> ;)
10:13:25 <Arafangion> Neat. :)
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10:19:32 <Wolf01> hello
10:22:53 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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10:39:28 <peter1138> git ftw
10:39:50 <peter1138> (cgit obviously, not the raw git-over-http interface)
10:40:00 <JVassie> thats what she said
10:40:39 <peter1138> actually, i don't think she did
10:41:19 <Terkhen> me neither :P
10:42:11 <planetmaker> so if neither she nor he said it, it must have said it.
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10:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> * Arafangion doesn't think he will use ImageShack again, the images are blurry <-- afair there is a checkbox "do not resize image" on upload
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11:02:12 <Terkhen> hmmmm...
11:02:51 <Terkhen> either I duplicate code, or I use a magic pointer for pointing to both towns and industries
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11:03:36 <frosch123> add a shared base class for town and industry?
11:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> template?
11:04:09 <Terkhen> hmmm... a new class just for a single method? it feels like too much just for this
11:04:28 <Terkhen> also, inheritance tends to affect performance
11:04:32 <frosch123> if you thing it remains with one method :p
11:04:41 <Terkhen> what else they could share?
11:04:55 <frosch123> everything which has to do with subsidies?
11:05:03 <frosch123> including load/save of that
11:06:01 <Terkhen> it feels like too much work just for two pointers
11:06:21 <frosch123> no idea what you want to do with them
11:06:39 <Terkhen> FindSubsidyCargoRoute uses two pointers to industry, src and dst
11:06:39 <frosch123> of course you can also just add a struct with one TownID and one IndustryID
11:06:46 <frosch123> and assert if both are assigned or whatever
11:07:05 <Terkhen> src and dst now can be of type town or industry
11:07:27 <Terkhen> hmm... I remember seeing such a struct for something else somewhere
11:07:28 <frosch123> then add src_town, src_ind, dst_town, dst_ind?
11:07:43 <Terkhen> yes, that would be duplicating code :P
11:08:01 <frosch123> well, what code? :p
11:08:15 * Terkhen goes back to finish the code
11:08:28 <Terkhen> right now I'm in the middle of it :P
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11:16:46 <Terkhen> SourceID, right :)
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11:23:45 <Terkhen> hmm... should we allow passenger subsidies with industry as a source?
11:24:17 <planetmaker> for ECS it makes sense
11:24:27 <planetmaker> for oil rigs? Not sure
11:24:29 <planetmaker> maybe
11:24:53 <Terkhen> true, I forgot about oil rigs
11:24:59 <Terkhen> right now there is a check to prevent it
11:25:04 <Terkhen> probably because of oil rigs
11:25:11 <andythenorth> bongiorno
11:25:27 <planetmaker> salve andy
11:25:51 <planetmaker> but subsidies for passengers to oil rigs might be fun tbh
11:26:35 <Terkhen> passenger subsidies to industries should be allowed IMO
11:26:46 <Terkhen> it only takes into account industry acceptance anyways, never industry tile acceptance
11:26:57 <Terkhen> so you will not get a subsidy for taking all the population of a town into a steel mill
11:26:58 <planetmaker> yes. I'd see no problem to get a subsidy to transport passengers to and from a remote oil rig
11:27:10 <planetmaker> :-D
11:27:19 <planetmaker> that's the case I'd be concerned about indeed
11:27:29 <planetmaker> but well. It's a museum steel mill
11:27:42 <planetmaker> with a popular and successful outreach manager
11:28:10 <frosch123> oilrigs do not process passengers either :)
11:28:17 <Terkhen> there was a steel mill on the Simpsons that accepted tourists...
11:28:36 <andythenorth> hmm
11:28:51 <planetmaker> Terkhen: our local steel mill offers also guided tours...
11:28:58 <Terkhen> :P
11:29:00 <planetmaker> and it's one of the biggest ones actually
11:29:01 <andythenorth> so...if you play with 'engines never expire' you'll end up with a lot of boats in FISH
11:29:02 <andythenorth> this is life
11:29:24 <planetmaker> that's life, yes
11:29:30 <frosch123> planetmaker: steelmills are not exactly "local"
11:29:35 <planetmaker> :-)
11:29:45 <planetmaker> frosch123: but Salzgitter is less than half an hour here
11:29:57 <planetmaker> and I can see it (at night) when they open the furnances
11:29:57 <frosch123> yeah, i was there as well :)
11:30:10 <Terkhen> and true, oil rigs do not accept passengers as an industry either
11:30:18 <Terkhen> so... no need to worry there :)
11:30:24 <planetmaker> don't they?
11:30:29 <planetmaker> I think they do
11:30:29 <Terkhen> nope
11:30:34 <Terkhen> check the industry chain
11:30:48 <planetmaker> hm. Interesting. So they just generate them?
11:30:50 <planetmaker> Curious
11:31:13 <Terkhen> they accept it because of their industry tiles too, but since subsidies only check industry acceptance/production, you will not get subsidies to deliver passengers there
11:31:17 <Terkhen> only to take them elsewhere
11:32:45 <frosch123> planetmaker: tile acceptance = station nearby accepts them; industry acceptance = industry processes the stuff
11:33:17 <Terkhen> hmm...
11:33:23 <planetmaker> Hm, but oil rigs produce passengers, do they?
11:33:43 <Terkhen> currently, the subsidy code limits cargo subsidies with a town destination to towns with a population greater than 900
11:33:48 <frosch123> yes they procude them, the tiles accept them, but it does not process passengers into oil
11:34:03 <Terkhen> does this makes sense, given that this also handles mail subsidies?
11:34:12 <planetmaker> :-D @ frosch123
11:34:13 <Terkhen> I wonder why it has a limit
11:34:24 <planetmaker> "Babyöl"
11:35:15 <Terkhen> what is that?
11:35:20 <planetmaker> Terkhen: presumably small villages don't accept much <whatever>
11:35:31 <planetmaker> baby oil
11:35:44 <planetmaker> olive oil
11:35:48 <Terkhen> hmm... but now I know exactly which cargos can be accepted by a given town
11:35:50 <planetmaker> crude oil
11:36:02 <planetmaker> which doesn't fit a pattern
11:36:07 <Terkhen> soylent oil
11:38:33 <frosch123> Terkhen: german has a way to combine two words into one which does the tell the direction of the implications between them. "dogsnack" might be a "snack for dogs", or a "snack consisting of dogs"; "babyoil" might be "oil for babies" or "oil made of babies".
11:38:48 <frosch123> s/the/not/
11:39:22 <Terkhen> I see :)
11:42:25 <planetmaker> in any case, the oil name you gave lead me to this link: :-d
11:42:43 <planetmaker> would win a crack pot price for sure
11:45:20 <Terkhen> heh
11:45:36 <Terkhen> I haven't read the book, I know the term from seeing lots of references :P
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11:46:26 <planetmaker> the book is well worth reading
11:47:39 <Terkhen> :)
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12:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> man this google spreadsheet is seriously memleaking
12:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> or it's firefox in general...
12:03:00 <Alberth> firefoxoil?
12:03:06 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: generally the number of bugs growth quadratically compared to the version number
12:03:27 <frosch123> so, consider the progess of firefox in the last year :)
12:03:52 <frosch123> ms otoh did it right from 2000 to 8
12:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
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12:06:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you need to use the google native client for google docs
12:06:04 <andythenorth> i.e. chrome
12:06:13 <andythenorth> it mem leaks horribly in FF and webkit
12:06:22 <andythenorth> webkit / safari /s
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12:06:36 <andythenorth> which is interesting, because chrome uses webkit afaik
12:06:39 <Terkhen> yes, it shouldn't
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12:26:11 <andythenorth> ok, so now I have 5 generations for one of the freighters in FISH
12:26:21 <andythenorth> each is a unique model so it can be replaced / upgraded
12:26:34 <andythenorth> the graphics for each will be different
12:26:38 <andythenorth> what else should change?
12:26:46 <andythenorth> speed? capacity? cost? running cost?
12:27:00 <andythenorth> linear improvement for each generation?
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12:35:41 <andythenorth> meh
12:35:47 <andythenorth> nobody cares apparently :D
12:37:46 <planetmaker> capacity should increase
12:37:56 <planetmaker> as with increased playing time industry output will be increased
12:38:24 <andythenorth> speed also
12:38:35 <andythenorth> I think it will just be slow and annoying from 1870-1900
12:38:38 <andythenorth> :)
12:42:13 <Pinkbeast> Keep 'em cheap early, it's hard enough to make money in 1870.
12:42:29 * andythenorth adds one ship that will fill 64 NARS 2 box cars :)
12:43:52 <Elukka> not sure about capacity increases
12:44:12 <Elukka> ships of all sizes will be needed at all times, though maybe not the biggest ones at the start
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12:45:34 <andythenorth> game needs progression
12:45:37 <andythenorth> otherwise it's boring
12:45:48 <andythenorth> even predictable linear progression is better than none
12:45:55 <Elukka> sure, but i don't think increasing capacity is necessarily the way to go
12:45:56 * andythenorth ponders regression - ships get smaller and slower :P
12:46:15 <andythenorth> Elukka: feel free to make suggestions
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12:47:42 <Elukka> speed is an obvious one, running costs too
12:48:03 <Elukka> i think capacity improvements should come in the sense of entire new lines of bigger ships, not new generations of existing ones
12:48:38 <andythenorth> so ships come in classes - relating to size
12:48:41 <Elukka> ie if a small freighter in 1900 carries 100 tonnes, a ship of the same size should still carry 100 tons in the year 2000
12:48:55 <andythenorth> for gameplay reasons? Or to match RL?
12:49:09 <Elukka> but in 2000 you can get humongous bulk freighters and container ships that simply didn't exist before
12:49:21 <Elukka> both
12:49:26 <Alberth> flying ships of course
12:49:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: they are zepellins :P
12:49:43 <andythenorth> or ekranoplan
12:50:05 <andythenorth> Elukka: it's a nice idea, but the upper size of ships in TTD is capped quite firmly
12:50:15 <Alberth> yeah, boats are obsolete, zeppelins are the future!
12:51:06 <andythenorth> so which way should costs go? Up? Down? Or level?
12:51:10 <Elukka> hmm
12:52:26 <Elukka> well by humongous i mean more the cargo capacity
12:53:43 <andythenorth> the biggest FISH ship will have 1408t, and is a large jump from the previous model which was 1080t
12:53:50 <andythenorth> it appears around 1997
12:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: same way as rockets are obsolete, and shuttles are the future?
12:58:01 <Alberth> nah, we'll have space elevators
12:58:24 <frosch123>
12:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we have wingsuit jumping, why would we need intergalactic travel? :p
13:05:28 <andythenorth> it would be nice if....instead of dicking around with prop 1B and some kind of pseudo bubble sort running only in my brain...
13:05:39 <andythenorth> ...there was just a newgrf prop which was a list structure of IDs
13:05:40 <andythenorth> :P
13:05:49 <andythenorth> (prop 1B is menu order for ships)
13:06:03 <andythenorth> hysterical raisins no doubt
13:07:50 <andythenorth> doesn't bloody work as expected either
13:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i agree
13:09:12 <andythenorth> so I have 5 vehicles gen1-gen5
13:09:29 <andythenorth> for hysterical raisins on my side the IDs are out of sequence
13:09:38 <andythenorth> I can't fix that and maintain savegame compatibility
13:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, i know the problem
13:09:53 <andythenorth> and I can't put them in the right order.
13:10:03 <andythenorth> 1B doesn't work as advertised
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13:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure you just did not read the advertisment right, but i'm equally sure that it's not a good way to handle things
13:11:53 <andythenorth> :)
13:12:28 <andythenorth> so the correct order would be (pseudo IDs): 02, 03, 04, 01, 05
13:12:41 <andythenorth> so prop 1B for 01 is set to 05
13:12:53 <andythenorth> for 04 it's set to 01 etc
13:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you that prop 1B is executed in the order that it appears in the grf
13:14:13 <andythenorth> ok
13:14:19 <andythenorth> so I have to put my code out of order :)
13:14:24 <andythenorth> this is going to be fun :o
13:14:37 * andythenorth will have to leave lots of comments behind
13:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause> only the parts that set 1B, not any other parts
13:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so basically after all your normal code, you handle prop 1B separately
13:15:59 <andythenorth> ach
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13:16:04 <andythenorth> I'll put it all in one include file
13:16:07 <andythenorth> that's quite logical
13:16:19 <andythenorth> like a list :P
13:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> pretty much :)
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13:21:36 <andythenorth> works
13:25:21 * andythenorth wants engines expire to be both true and false at once
13:25:45 <andythenorth> toggle in the buy menu?
13:25:49 <andythenorth> 'current models'
13:25:54 <andythenorth> 'historical models'
13:26:36 <Terkhen> new filter in the buy menu: vehicles newer than X
13:26:36 <Elukka> i'd love that
13:27:16 <Arafangion> I think historical engines should become progressively more expensive, if you want to be realistic. ;)
13:27:19 <andythenorth> Terkhen: just use the model life
13:27:50 <Elukka> considering historical engines are generally repaired and not built from scratch, i'm not so sure
13:34:36 <Arafangion> Elukka: Only if you kept them.
13:35:08 <Elukka> i wouldn't think that the locomotives you specifically built and used are literally the only ones in the ttd world
13:35:41 <Arafangion> Elukka: So, you want someone else's prized relic?
13:36:08 <Elukka> i'd just keep the expiry dates and original prices, honestly
13:36:44 <Arafangion> What about running expenses?
13:37:01 <Arafangion> Although I suppose that's very debatable.
13:38:09 <Elukka> keep them too because it's not like it's going to make a significant difference in game
13:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> some museum vehicles actually take over commercial transports
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13:48:44 <Danio> Can anyone tell me what I might be doing wrong here? Train 14 is just supposed to go to the station on the right, but is instead just looping around. The signals on the right are two-way path signals.
13:49:10 <Elukka>
13:49:13 <Elukka> cool locomotive
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13:49:56 <Elukka> danio: looks like you haven't electrified the station area
13:51:42 <Danio> Elukka: Yes! Thank you!
13:52:01 <Elukka> i do that all the time and spend a good while pondering what i did wrong :P
13:52:08 <Danio> xD
14:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> usually happens on overbuilding the station for me...
14:03:41 <Elukka>
14:03:45 <Elukka> had a go at weathering the cab
14:04:31 <Korenn> Elukka: looks cool, but you'll have to do the plastic bits at the bottom too
14:04:35 <Korenn> or nobody will notice
14:05:10 <Elukka> yeah
14:05:16 <Elukka> just haven't gotten around to it
14:05:39 <Korenn> do you usually paint them yourself? or just for detail?
14:06:15 <Elukka> i just weather them
14:07:52 <Elukka> i'm not confident enough with my skills to do any permanent weathering, so that's pastel chalk and mostly watercolor, of all things
14:07:58 <Elukka> i'm surprised watercolor worked out
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14:22:49 <Terkhen> bbl
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14:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: then check how it looks after 3 months, or 5 years :)
14:26:55 <Elukka> there probably won't be much left in 5 years
14:26:59 <Elukka> can always reapply it or use other methods
14:27:49 <Elukka> the main problem i can see is cleaning dust off it
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14:39:46 <Eddi|zuHause> use an air filter so dust doesn't gather :)
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15:47:30 <_maddy> to make industries increase production, is it better to always have train waiting at the station, or let some material pile up between pickups
15:48:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the former
15:48:43 <Elukka> i wish it wasn't so
15:48:55 <Elukka> it's a bit silly
15:49:23 <_maddy> so better rating means industry is always more likely to increase production? for some reason mine usually decreases if I keep trains waiting (probably just bad luck with randomness)
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15:49:47 <Elukka> better rating increases the chances of production increases, yes
15:50:05 <Ammler> Elukka: how would it be less silly?
15:50:32 <Elukka> why would an industry demand that there always be a train standing on the platform?
15:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> well, andythenorth could finalize the new firs supplies algorithm
15:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that would be less silly, combined with new station rating algorithm
15:50:55 <Ammler> for the industry, the cargo is gone
15:51:25 <Ammler> so that is definitively better
15:51:29 <Elukka> there's a new station rating algorythm?
15:51:37 <Elukka> ammler the whole system is a bit silly
15:51:45 <__ln__> Elukka: english only
15:52:01 <Elukka> huh?
15:52:58 <__ln__> Elukka: your spelling of 'algorythm' is not english.
15:53:06 <Elukka> ...that would be a typo, yes
15:53:28 <Elukka> it's not any other language either as far as i know
15:54:05 <Elukka> are you being serious
15:54:40 <__ln__> the topic is serious.
15:54:43 <Ammler> "english" isn't English either :-)
15:56:12 <Elukka> what the hell
15:56:43 <Elukka> 'english only' doesn't mean YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO TYPO WORDS, IT SOUNDS FOREIGN
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15:57:30 <Ammler> why should it allow to mistype?
15:58:06 <Elukka> what
15:58:16 <Ammler> anything
15:58:32 <Elukka> can you rephrase that sentence because the structure isn't really english
15:58:41 <Ammler> :-D
15:59:07 <__ln__> if the topic doesn't explicitly allow typos, they must be forbidden.
15:59:28 <planetmaker> New sentences start with a capital character
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15:59:39 <Elukka> Sentences end with a punctuation mark.
15:59:58 <planetmaker> , but my sentence wasn't finished. ;-)
16:00:04 <Elukka> ln you've got to be trolling
16:00:08 <Elukka> please tell me you're trolling
16:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Interpunctation does never start on the new line.
16:00:39 <planetmaker> ...not?
16:00:44 <planetmaker> ;-)
16:01:33 <andythenorth> the new algorythm is FIRS specific
16:01:56 <planetmaker> But Algol isn't FIRS-specific.
16:02:06 <Elukka> algol is a star!
16:02:17 <planetmaker> don't you say!
16:02:17 <Elukka> andy i'm okay with that since i'm gonna use FIRS :P
16:02:20 <Elukka> what's it do
16:02:53 <planetmaker> Elukka: actually... It's two stars to be precise ;-)
16:03:12 <Elukka> dammit!
16:03:13 <Elukka> you're right
16:03:51 <planetmaker> it's the prototype of the ... algol variables ;-)
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16:04:50 <Elukka> trivia: nu scorpii is likely a septuple star
16:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> algo'ol?
16:05:53 <Elukka> my brain is dispensing more trivia and wants to tell you that algol means 'the ghoul' which is a word originating from arabic
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16:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of words starting with al- are loanwords from arabic
16:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> especially spanish is full of those
16:06:32 <Elukka> they removed the 'al' from 'ghoul' in english
16:06:32 <Elukka> yeah
16:06:45 <Elukka> although there are alghouls in the witcher game :P
16:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> al is actually the arabic article
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16:07:17 <Elukka> yeah
16:07:21 <Elukka> they're the the ghouls
16:11:24 <planetmaker> رأس الغول let's spell it properly ;-)
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16:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's actually three stars
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16:16:28 <planetmaker> yes, just found out that, too
16:17:15 <Elukka> almost all of the non-boring star names are arabic
16:19:07 <Eddi|zuHause> well, lots of modern astronomy is based on arabic research...
16:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> after europe fell into the dark ages, the arabic world was the center of science
16:19:48 <planetmaker> yup. They were the maintainers of knowledge through the middle ages
16:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that was before europe revived itself and in turn the arabic world fell into a dark age...
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16:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but that may very well swing backwards over the next 100 years :)
16:22:54 <Elu> did i miss anything?
16:22:58 <Elu> my connection sucks at the moment
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16:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> @logs
16:23:03 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause:
16:23:14 <Elu> useful
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16:30:27 <Elu> Eddi|zuHause: do you have any reference for the length of prussian tank cars?
16:30:31 *** Elu is now known as Elukka
16:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Elu: not really
16:30:53 <Elukka> gonna do something that looks right then
16:45:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23030 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4796]: always show a chat message and send an admin packet when a new company is made
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16:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause> gnahh...
16:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> nml bails on "var[0x61, 0, 0xFFFFFFFF, date_of_last_service]" with "Variable parameter must be a constant number"
16:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> now i need to make a lookup table for variable names and their numbers to work around that...
17:00:39 <Alberth> you can also hack nml :)
17:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... it's even more complicated...
17:05:36 <Eddi|zuHause> since i have to mask out the right bits...
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17:15:52 <planetmaker> jo, this is nice. Variable 0x80 for canals seems to return height in increments of 1 instead of increments of 8 like all other variables which report tile height...
17:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the right time to switch it for all other variables :)
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17:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to the idea that you can append parameters to any variable, so i could write date_of_last_service(-1) and it expands to var61
17:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> ?
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18:42:35 <andythenorth> in the game - who pays the cost of loading/unloading ships?
18:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause> what cost?
18:52:30 <andythenorth> I am thinking about variable running cost for ships
18:52:45 <andythenorth> but the greatest cost of break-bulk shipping is cargo handling
18:52:53 <andythenorth> so do costs go up or down whilst loading/unloading?
18:57:30 <planetmaker> they're paid by the person paying the transport
18:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's a running cost callback. but unfortunately there is no variable for "is currently loading"
18:58:31 <Alberth> if you pay for loading, you have an incentive to minimize it
18:58:38 <planetmaker> they're transit items
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19:04:20 * andythenorth thinks ships are cheaper to run while loading
19:04:36 <andythenorth> either extend running cost cb, or just use speed as a proxy
19:04:50 <andythenorth> or don't bother with variable costs
19:04:53 <andythenorth> I reckon
19:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there would need to be a difference whether the ship is just sitting at the dock, or actually loaded something the last X ticks
19:08:58 <andythenorth> assuming shipper pays lading cost, both situations are same to me
19:09:21 <andythenorth> ship at dock = reduced crew, no fuel burnt
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19:19:55 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh... random action type 84 doesn't really fit into my schema...
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19:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh... i broke it :(
19:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause>
19:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> current cets with this patch:
19:29:00 <planetmaker> nice. Better post it to the bug tracker, though. Yexo and Hirundo seem to be afk
19:29:16 * Yexo is not afk anymore
19:29:21 <Yexo> anything important I missed today?
19:29:28 <planetmaker> not much.
19:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: a critical nml bug 5 minutes ago :)
19:29:43 <planetmaker> I wondered about the value range of var 0x80 of canals
19:30:00 <planetmaker> but those two things are mostly all
19:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess nobody was insane enough to use random action type 84 before...
19:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll open a ticket
19:30:38 <Elukka> what does cets need a patch for+
19:30:39 <Yexo> please do
19:30:40 <Elukka> *?
19:31:02 <Yexo> I know Hirundo did plan at some point to remove random_action completely and replace it by something slightly different
19:31:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that patch is a not-yet-checked-in modification
19:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i didn't want to check in something that is known to throw compiler errors
19:32:01 <Elukka> heh, i see
19:32:58 <Elukka> o_O
19:33:03 <Elukka> what's the baureihe A2?
19:33:05 <Elukka> looks really weird
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19:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause>
19:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks kinda disputed whether it was called "A2" or "AT3"
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19:45:08 <yrol> Greetings :o)
19:45:14 <PeanutHorst> geekings!
19:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause> greekings
19:46:14 <Elukka> i see it looks just as weird in real life
19:46:25 <yrol> i have a slight problem here with an AI that has autoreplaced its locomotives with a 1HP snowplough and thought i ask here if someone would know how to fix that
19:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yrol: look at the AI's thread in
19:47:33 <andythenorth> FISH ships will use CC hulls from 1870 onwards. Completely unrealistic. Should I care?
19:47:52 <Elukka> hmm.
19:48:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sails in CC :)
19:48:20 <andythenorth> no sailing ships
19:48:27 <yrol> Eddi|zuHause, hmmm ( makes looky looky sounds)
19:48:34 <Elukka> maybe you could find some way to include company colors without coloring the whole hull
19:48:45 <Elukka> but then i don't like company colors anyhow
19:50:00 <andythenorth> I'm doing it because I can't be arsed to redraw 8 angles on 2 large hulls
19:50:04 <yrol> so there is no immediate fix for my problem? cant u somehow take over the AI and reverse the replacement, or... save, then reload without the set that supplies that snowplough?
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19:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yrol: you can cheat yourself into the company
19:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yrol: but that may break more things that you fix
19:51:14 <yrol> because, frankly, if it cant be fixed ingame or so, my game is pretty much ruined as other AIs certainly also would do such replacement and thusly ruin the whole game
19:51:46 <yrol> nods i see. i have to start anew then, i think
19:52:01 <Yexo> yrol: it depends on which AI you use
19:52:17 <andythenorth> Elukka: you're still at the enthusiastic phase of spriting
19:52:17 <Yexo> if other companies are controlled by different AIs, only the one company you have now is ruined
19:52:21 <yrol> Yexo, let me check...
19:52:34 <andythenorth> rather than the, "oh, why did I start this task?" phase
19:52:35 <andythenorth> :D
19:53:02 <Elukka> i dunno
19:53:11 <Elukka> considering how slowly i get things done i might be in the second phase already :P
19:53:28 <andythenorth> I like drawing buildings, but vehicles are a massive chore
19:53:43 <andythenorth> I draw it, then I have to draw the other 7 angles :P
19:53:50 <Elukka> yeah since you have to draw the same thing many times
19:53:52 <andythenorth> any chance we could switch to a 3D engine?
19:54:20 <Elukka> ship sprites are big enough that it just might make a bit of sense to render a 3D model and overpaint it?
19:54:23 <Yexo> you could model the vehicles in a 3D program and render them?
19:54:33 <andythenorth> Elukka: that's how most of FISH is done
19:54:40 <Yexo> zephyris has done so with great success for grvts
19:54:43 <andythenorth> drawing hull shapes by hand is a no-go
19:54:50 <Elukka> heh, i see
19:55:05 <Elukka> i don't really see how it'd be of much use with road vehicles or trains though
19:55:10 <Elukka> i'd be interested in knowing zephyris' methods
19:55:28 <Yexo> he uses quite a few scripts all merged together
19:55:31 <yrol> Yexo, only the admiral AI did that, with all its trains ( some arent replaced yet, i guess, because all the other trains block the tracks with their snailish manners.
19:55:45 <Yexo> I have an (old) copy of them somewhere, but not sure if he'd like me to distribute that
19:55:50 <andythenorth> 3D pre-processor for nml?
19:56:35 <Yexo> that has nothing to do with nml. It could work the same way as that a lot of png files in the opengfx repo are automatically generated from gimp files (which nml can't read)
19:57:00 <andythenorth> ok
19:57:09 <andythenorth> so maybe part of the makefile framework...
19:57:17 <andythenorth> I was thinking it would happen at compile time :)
19:57:23 <andythenorth> of course, then it would take ages
19:57:42 <Elukka> the problem i'd have is how do you make a renderer make pixel arty stuff
19:57:46 <Yexo> as long as it's only done when the model files changes that doesn't matter
19:58:08 <andythenorth> Elukka: you'd need a very carefully tweaked renderer
19:58:23 <Elukka> even without any texturing, just having the shape would make things a lot faster
19:58:34 <Elukka> i haven't a clue how to tweak it like that :D
19:58:36 <Elukka> or where to start
19:58:43 <andythenorth> it would need a custom shader
19:58:49 <Elukka> that's way beyond me
19:58:59 <Elukka> all i can do is make models and pick some options and click 'render'
19:59:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, building OpenGFX from graphics source now takes indeed ages
20:00:07 <planetmaker> if you generate all pngs which are feasible to be generated
20:00:28 <planetmaker> any other method to generate graphics files could easily be included as well
20:00:53 <yrol> okies, thanks then. and big thanks for integrating the new station GUI in release :o)))
20:01:06 <planetmaker> e.g. for houses Zephyris has a nice ImageJ script collection
20:03:36 <andythenorth> now I have to do something about this :)
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20:22:48 <MNIM> dude, andy, are you gonna build that much?
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20:24:15 * andythenorth needs a coal sink in FIRS, like a power station or something :P
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20:36:05 <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
20:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> let houses built before 1970 accept coal
20:36:58 <Elukka> why not just have a power plant
20:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: because he removed them
20:37:22 <Elukka> i know, but i don't get why :D
20:40:07 <Rubidium> coal is dirty
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20:40:45 <Rubidium> it's so bad that it puts CO2 and nuclear material into the atmosphere ;)
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20:43:00 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23031 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#4804]: for the admin "bots" there was no distinction between bankruptcy and manual removal of companies even though the API suggested that
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20:46:10 <Elukka> coal's pretty bad, yes
20:46:17 <Elukka> it's a thing that's used though
20:47:00 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: were the cets templates hand drawn or rendered?
20:47:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I only need this since the ratings algorithm got changed...
20:47:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: hand drawn
20:47:37 <Elukka> hm
20:47:55 * andythenorth has a map full of insane amounts of cargo waiting
20:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: lower initial production :)
20:48:43 <andythenorth> it's not that high anyway
20:48:55 <andythenorth> supplies algorithm :P
20:49:20 <andythenorth> waiting on the maker of planets :)
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20:57:41 <Elukka> what kind of perspective does openttd use?
20:57:43 <Elukka> projection i mean
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20:58:32 <Elukka> dimetric?
20:58:56 <SpComb> isometric
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20:59:28 <Elukka> is it really?
21:00:25 <andythenorth> good night
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21:00:49 <SpComb> it does the whole 60° / 120° thing, iirc
21:02:21 <Elukka> hmm
21:03:07 <Elukka> well turns out i haven't a clue how i'd coerce kerkythea into actually rendering things with the right projection from the right angles
21:03:39 <Elukka> apparently someone's figured it out for blender though...
21:10:22 <Elukka> well, i guess i'll look into that tomorrow
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21:37:13 <Wolf01> 'night
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22:04:44 <__ln__> hmmm, i logged into my cell phone as root through ssh. maybe i should disable root logins.
22:06:31 <Terkhen> good night
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22:32:00 <z-MaTRiX> ;>>
22:32:26 <z-MaTRiX> __ln__<< maybe you should disable unencrypted dataflow in the newtork direction
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