IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-16
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07:16:40 <Rubidium> SpComb: the game is actually dimetric (or near isometric)
07:20:22 <Rubidium> a flat tile is 64 pixels wide and 32 high, which means there is a 2:1 ratio between x and y -> arctan 0.5 ~= 27°
07:20:52 <peter1138> yeah, proper isometric isn't convenient with square pixels
07:21:06 <Rubidium> -> 180 - 2*27 = 126 which isn't quite 120° yet
07:21:43 <Rubidium> @calc 180 - 2*arctan(0.5)
07:21:43 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Error: 'arctan' is not a defined function.
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08:45:43 <Lachie> what's the go Terkhen?
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08:58:21 <Lachie> hey dudes, how do I reverse the direction of an engine in the consist (not the first engine)? Control isn't working. Simply tells me it cant reverse the direction
08:59:32 <Bolt_> I think I found a defect in the trunk
08:59:55 <Bolt_> my AI cannot place signs in the trunk. it can in 1.1.3 tag
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09:01:39 <Bolt_> AISign.BuildSign(AIMap.GetTileIndex(2,2),"Test Message");
09:02:12 <Korenn> Lachie: try ctrl or shift ;)
09:02:54 <Lachie> read the line again :P
09:03:03 <Terkhen> Lachie: IIRC now NewGRFs have to explicitly say if they want the engines to be reversible or not
09:03:13 <Terkhen> it's a relatively recent change
09:04:43 <planetmaker> what Terkhen says ^^
09:06:19 <Lachie> all these NewGRF changes... fuu
09:06:51 <SmatZ> Bolt_: do you have signs enabled?
09:07:09 <SmatZ> I think you have to enable showing of other companies' signs
09:07:12 <Bolt__> the player can add the signs.
09:07:21 <planetmaker> yes, but do _you_ see them?
09:07:31 * Bolt__ is searching for the setting
09:07:33 <planetmaker> there's a new transparency option
09:08:00 <Lachie> so where does the Prop go?
09:08:00 <planetmaker> it was actually introduced so that AIs can happily spam debug signs but normal playing is not "harmed" by it ;-)
09:10:11 <Lachie> excellent. Thank you planetmaker :)
09:12:02 <Lachie> it's a little confusing catching up on all these changes
09:12:19 <Bolt__> thanks SmatZ. I found the setting!!.
09:14:16 <planetmaker> mostly it's only additions, Lachie ;-)
09:14:41 <planetmaker> though this can be considered a change. Technically the behaviour was previously undefined or under-specified ;-)
09:21:51 <Bolt__> I have created a patch to the game to allow the variable - _ops_till_suspend from sqvm.h available to the AI script. it is very useful for performance tuning the AI
09:23:04 <Bolt__> how best to make this change available?
09:23:54 <planetmaker> forums, if you want general feedback, or our bug tracker, if you think it's "done" and can be included without (much) discussions and changes
09:24:04 <planetmaker> or you could start by showing us the diff here ;-)
09:25:26 <Terkhen> I don't know much about AI code, but IIRC they had their number of operations limited to prevent them from using all the cpu... doesn't letting them change that value defeats the point?
09:26:17 <planetmaker> was it about having AIs change that value? I didn't understand it that way
09:27:14 <Terkhen> maybe I'm the confused one :P
09:27:48 <planetmaker> I concur, that the AI changing that value IMHO is not a thing we want. having it read the value - why not?
09:28:40 <Terkhen> oh, reading should be okay, yes :)
09:28:46 <planetmaker> Principially possible is a patch which allows AIs to change the ticks to suspend in a controlled fashion, a small corridor
09:29:11 <planetmaker> which has to average out on the long run. But that might be too complicated ;-)
09:30:48 <planetmaker> hm... I think the palette animation between ttdviewer and OpenTTD differs :S
09:31:41 <Bolt__> the patch is to allow reading of the OpCode current state for the tick. that is all
09:32:26 <Bolt__> changing the opCode limit within the AI would be a bad idea. but allow the reading of the current state allows for some interesting re-designed AI.
09:32:53 <planetmaker> That's conceptually fine :-)
09:33:22 <Alberth> a good entry point for doing much pre-mature optimization ;)
09:33:28 <Bolt__> the .patch file generated to TortoiseSVN is 4kb
09:33:59 <planetmaker> paste.openttdcoop.org
09:34:01 <Bolt__> indeed. but also understanding how the squirrel code works.
09:34:45 <Alberth> Bolt__: but even then, you are optimizing for the current squirrel implementation, which may change in time
09:36:29 <Bolt__> Alberth - you are correct,
09:38:35 <Alberth> you are a little careless with empty lines
09:39:01 <Bolt__> true. it is my forage into the openTTD code base. My first change!
09:39:39 <Alberth> line 82 breaks the alignment of the table
09:40:59 <planetmaker> the functions miss the doxygen
09:41:08 <Alberth> yeah, it's a quite good patch
09:41:41 <Bolt__> when you make an action in the game, you forfeit all your opcodes for that tick. by knowing the op codes remaining, it should be possible to do useful work in the tick before performing the game action. ( or so my theory goes)
09:41:58 <Alberth> planetmaker: the AI code has slightly different conventions than the other code (to complicate matters)
09:42:00 <Bolt__> I noticed that the train AI spend a lot of time in construction..
09:42:25 <planetmaker> Alberth: might be. I hardly ventured in that code region
09:43:07 <Alberth> but it looks like in ai/ai_instance.hpp that you need more doxymentayion indeed.
09:43:39 <Bolt__> would you like me to update the patch to include the specially formatted comments?
09:43:54 <Alberth> sure, it's your patch
09:44:04 <Terkhen> that would be nice :)
09:44:07 <planetmaker> Alberth: but where are functions then documented?
09:44:33 <planetmaker> I mean... you're the code correctness police, not me. But...
09:44:47 <Alberth> Bolt__: I am not sure how managable dynamically changing work is, it sounds like it would complicate the squirrel code a lot
09:45:51 <Bolt__> yeah, perhaps. but it sounds like a fun challenge for me.
09:45:54 <Alberth> planetmaker: in the *.h files rather than in the *.cpp files. I believe we should fix that some day
09:47:15 <Alberth> Bolt__: perhaps it is wise to first open a topic in the NoAI forum about it? It gives you and other authors a chance to try it, and see how it works.
09:48:20 <planetmaker> but yes, generally looks very nice
09:48:30 <Alberth> I am a bit worried that people will only use it for doing premature optimization with it
09:48:58 <planetmaker> well, can't be helped
09:49:17 <planetmaker> that's the AI authors' responsibility
09:49:40 <planetmaker> with newgrfs I'm also responsible as author that it looks and works ok ;-)
09:50:18 <planetmaker> (and not to optimize an industry set to produce and accept stuff for all industries :-P )
09:51:00 <Alberth> but... no industry yet accepts 'things' and 'stuff' :p
09:51:14 <planetmaker> OpenTTD-simple: one industry which produces stuff and accepts stuff. And one generic vehicle per type which transports stuff ;-)
09:51:24 <planetmaker> and then only one type of house where "stuff" lives in :-P
09:51:28 <planetmaker> welcome to cylon world
09:51:52 <Alberth> would be great for kids :)
09:53:37 <Alberth> preferably big stuff in nice primary colours :)
09:54:24 <Bolt__> btw, I love the game. since I played the original LONG time ago.
09:55:58 <planetmaker> I guess that's why we're here ;-)
09:56:21 <planetmaker> Alberth: that idea actually is that simple it's even feasible to make such scenario in a quite reasonable amount of time
09:56:28 <Bolt__> In terms of pre-mature optimisation, knowing how to write more efficient code from the start, will help me to write AI that is far faster.
09:57:00 <planetmaker> Some AIs are not really fast, thinking of AIs which take literally (game)years to start doing anything
09:57:38 <Bolt__> for instance. using list.valuate() uses 50% less opCodes that a foreach loop
09:58:17 <planetmaker> Bolt__: maybe you find a place (in the wiki?) to elaborate on this?
09:58:28 <planetmaker> Other less experienced AI authors might profit from it
09:58:48 <Bolt__> I am not an experience AI author. I am just tinkering.
09:59:00 <Bolt__> reading the docs. absorbing, reading others code to learn.
10:04:08 <Alberth> there's enough information to last a life time :)
10:06:12 <planetmaker> only one lifetime? ;-)
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10:09:40 <Bolt__> Ill post something into the forums and wiki. with code examples. give me a few days to compile it for human consumption
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10:12:43 <planetmaker> hm... I think we have a regression with palette animation
10:12:55 <planetmaker> the light house's animation differs between trunk and 1.0.5
10:13:00 <planetmaker> in 1.0.5 it's still correct
10:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks very american
10:23:18 <Bolt__> trying to create an account in the tt-forums.net. I get the error 'One or more of the fields entered was marked as spam' what does that mean?
10:23:57 <Bolt__> could it be that it does not like the @gmail.com email address?
10:24:30 <planetmaker> iirc that e-mail address is ok
10:25:29 <Bolt__> tt-forums.net - » Why can’t I register?
10:25:31 <Bolt__> It is possible the website owner has banned your IP address or disallowed the username you are attempting to register. The website owner could have also disabled registration to prevent new visitors from signing up. Contact a board administrator for assistance.
10:31:09 <Bolt__> worked it out. that error was the websites way of saying 'that username is already in use'
10:34:08 <orudge> Bolt__: what username are you trying to use?
10:34:17 <orudge> or were you trying to use?
10:35:03 <Bolt__> i created 'bolt12345' as a test.
10:35:25 <Bolt__> i have since changed its email address to a@gmail.com so I can create another account.
10:35:39 <Bolt__> since I now know what the error means.
10:40:57 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: this is the weirdest thing
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11:48:12 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23032 /trunk/src/table/palette_convert.h: -Fix (r14224, r22419): Palette conversion windows to DOS for light house / stadium animated colour was mixed up
11:49:36 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: what does r14224 have to do with it? :)
11:49:50 <planetmaker> that's where the palette was actually defined and where it originally went wrong
11:49:52 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by truebrain :: r14224 /trunk (5 files) (2008-09-02 15:34:38 UTC)
11:49:53 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Fix: copy Makefile.bundle too to your working dir, so you don't need to run ./configure in the root of OpenTTD
11:51:03 <planetmaker> nasty type or bit flip in memory between looking up and typing the ci message ;-)
11:51:23 <TrueBrain> bit flip, I am sure :)
12:09:31 <Elukka> why did they have to scrap the V19...
12:09:47 <Elukka> it was damaged during ww2, then repaired, then grabbed by the americans, tested in virginia, scrapped
12:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: because the americans had no use for it
12:10:12 <Eddi|zuHause> diesel traction was the future
12:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and "V19" was not the official name anyway
12:11:43 * MNIM looks for steam turbine engines en steam-electrics
12:11:56 <Elukka> not the br 03, but i think the br 05 (which looks very similar streamlined) looks better without streamlining
12:12:10 <Elukka> those are some huge driving wheels
12:13:37 <MNIM> drive wheels in excess of 2m weren't uncommon, or so Ive heard
12:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the BR 05 and BR 61 (and resulting from that the 18 201) have the largest wheel diameters in germany, 2300mm
12:21:14 <b_jonas> how about in ancient China?
12:21:48 <Elukka> the great railways of ancient china?
12:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt ancient china ever was part of germany
12:22:04 <b_jonas> Elukka: ships, not railways
12:22:17 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: you sure?
12:22:25 <Elukka> we were talking of steam locomotives
12:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: they never teach these things in school!!
12:22:52 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: we should sue them!
12:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> history of germany is such a neglected topic!
12:22:58 <b_jonas> you mentioned large wheels so I thought of ships
12:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: and the pictures of steam engines didn't put you off?
12:23:38 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, all I learnt about germany is that they dig great holes on the beach, and stole my bike
12:24:12 <b_jonas> well I just heared "drive wheels in excess of 2m weren't uncommon"
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12:26:16 <b_jonas> in here, the transportation museum has a large ship's engine connected to two paddle wheels exhibited outdoors a bit farther from the museum. every kid climbs on them, despite the signs.
12:27:40 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: too far? Awwhh
12:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: sorry, not quite awake yet
12:28:15 <b_jonas> well, some trains are also exhibited
12:28:24 <b_jonas> I should visit that museum again some times
12:29:01 <b_jonas> though I have another museum queued first
12:29:36 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe Tuesdy afternoon
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12:36:09 <TrueBrain> the reasons I hate Windows: I upload something via VirtualBox on Windows in a Linux guest with 10 MB/s (well, 11, but who is counting)
12:36:23 <TrueBrain> I open WinSCP, I upload the same file on the Windows host system to the remote .... 746 KB/s ..
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12:37:27 <Alberth> ie WinSCP is horribly bad programmed?
12:39:03 <Alberth> given the size of the OS, P(windows is badly programmed) = 1
13:02:43 <TinoDidriksen> Use rsync instead of WinSCP...
13:04:27 <b_jonas> or download stuff on http
13:05:29 <Alberth> very likely TB is not downloading stuff from the internets
13:07:50 <b_jonas> sure, but I mean, when I want to move a large file on LAN to a windows machine, I often do it by putting it on a HTTP server on one machine and load it from the windows machine
13:08:04 <b_jonas> it doesn't have to do anything with the internet
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13:22:26 <Alberth> lol, that is one silly work-around :)
13:23:59 <Terkhen> you can access files on any computer in a LAN by writing \\ip and using that computer credentials
13:24:18 <Terkhen> unless the computer is configured differently
13:26:57 <peter1138> yeah, cos we all use windows
13:31:40 <Arafangion> I'm going to assume a very open definition for "configured differently".
13:33:04 <Terkhen> I was talking about avoiding that silly work around on windows
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13:34:08 <Arafangion> Well, most file transfer methods are pretty sucky for large files.
13:34:27 <Arafangion> Except, perhaps, http and ftp, sadly.
13:34:30 <peter1138> floppy disks especially so
13:35:09 <b_jonas> truck filled with hard disks?
13:35:13 <TWerkhoven> null-modem cable ?
13:35:39 <b_jonas> ah, people still call serial cables that? fun
13:35:42 <peter1138> i copied doom wads with a serial cable
13:35:57 <Arafangion> peter1138: Those aren't a large file, surely?
13:35:57 <Alberth> b_jonas: truck filled with tapes works very well
13:35:59 <b_jonas> I used those much more than modems
13:36:06 <b_jonas> serial cables that is
13:36:28 * Alberth uses serial UTP nowadays :p
13:36:46 <b_jonas> tape reader to telex through modem to tape punch?
13:36:55 <Arafangion> I like to use SSH - keep it simple.
13:36:55 <peter1138> Arafangion, 14MB was very large back then
13:37:05 <b_jonas> yeah, I used floppies too, back when they worked
13:37:17 <b_jonas> running between two rooms swapping three floppies
13:37:18 <Arafangion> Alas, ssh is pretty crappy with resumption, so b_jonas's suggestion is a respectable workaround.
13:37:49 <peter1138> and i still remember when the encryption overhead presented quite a bottleneck
13:38:08 <Arafangion> There's a fork of openssh actually, tuned for performance.
13:38:26 <Arafangion> One option is indeed to disable encryption.
13:38:29 <b_jonas> I still don't understand why you call it a workaround
13:38:35 <b_jonas> http is for downloading stuff
13:38:41 <b_jonas> how the hell is it a workaround?
13:38:49 <peter1138> *hyper text transport protocol*
13:38:55 <peter1138> yeah, perfect for downloading files
13:39:03 <b_jonas> who cares about the name?
13:39:04 <Terkhen> because an http server is not intended to share files on a LAN, although it can be used for it
13:39:23 <b_jonas> I'm using rsync for local copying stuff too, when it's neither remote nor synchronizing anything
13:39:48 <Alberth> copy a file on a LAN? let's start a server first. How is that not weird?
13:40:05 <b_jonas> Alberth: start? it's already on when I turn on the machine
13:40:27 <b_jonas> all I need is give a file to it and it's shared
13:40:37 <Alberth> why do you run http servers at random machines?
13:40:47 <peter1138> to copy files around :)
13:40:47 <b_jonas> Alberth: who said random machines
13:40:55 <b_jonas> I use this to copy files from my machine to other machines, at home
13:41:03 <b_jonas> it's not a random machine
13:41:24 <Alberth> so how do you copy it back from your other machine then?
13:41:36 <andythenorth> why is this weird?
13:41:42 <andythenorth> it's as good as any other route
13:41:44 <b_jonas> samba if the other one is a widows machine
13:41:52 <Arafangion> http can handle push as well as pull.
13:41:58 <andythenorth> some ready-to-go NAS boxes do this
13:42:02 <b_jonas> it doesn't happen as often
13:42:09 <Arafangion> http is actually very flexible.
13:42:25 <b_jonas> Arafangion: I know, but it doesn't help
13:42:28 <andythenorth> I've done it for cross-platform sharing
13:42:36 <andythenorth> now I'd probably just use Dropbox
13:42:40 <b_jonas> the point is that I can do anything with my own machine I want, but I don't want to install stuff on the other machine
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13:42:59 <b_jonas> I can use http because at least a simple http client is always available on whatever other machine I want to copy to
13:44:16 <Arafangion> It's also astonisingly trivial to write yourself.
13:44:36 <b_jonas> that's also why when I'm doing this I often put files to a zip archive
13:44:43 <b_jonas> because the other machine will always have a zip decompressor
13:45:15 <b_jonas> that reminds me, am I the only person to have used double-zip? as in, zip files without compression, then zip that zip file with compression.
13:45:32 <b_jonas> so that files aren't just compressed individually like zip does.
13:45:39 <Arafangion> b_jonas: That's sensible.
13:45:48 <Terkhen> isn't that what tar.gz supposedly does?
13:45:52 <Arafangion> b_jonas: But windows's default crappy zip doesn't do that.
13:45:58 <Arafangion> Terkhen: More or less, yes.
13:46:10 <Terkhen> and yes, I never use Windows zip implementation, I instal 7z or winrar
13:46:29 <Arafangion> The hot new kid is lzma, I believe.
13:47:11 <b_jonas> actually it's xz which is the new version of lzma compressing better and with a cooler sounding name
13:47:26 <b_jonas> it's not like it's better than some older compressors, but somehow it's managed to spread
13:47:47 <b_jonas> I've been finding xz-compressed tarballs everywhere on the net before computers even started to have xz decompressor
13:48:11 <b_jonas> (luckily there's usually a gzip-compressed copy next to it, just like in many places that distribute bzip2-compressed tarballs)
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13:50:58 <Arafangion> I used to be crazy about compression. Now I just like gzip. It's a sensible balanace.
13:51:09 <Arafangion> And more importantly, doesn't tax my Atom D525 too hashly.
13:51:48 <Arafangion> Which is what I play OpenTTD on. :)
13:52:06 <b_jonas> to show the current state of art in compression
13:52:36 <b_jonas> though that works only if you only care for size, not for speed or memory use of compression of decompression
13:55:16 <Arafangion> Yeah, well memory's cheap these days - but speed is not.
14:07:38 <Alberth> but it is all multi-core nowadays
14:45:04 <Rubidium> yeah, xz/lzma can compress the savegames 10 to 15% better than they do at the moment with default settings
14:53:34 <frosch123> multi-core is nice. finally something can make good use of mutexes :p
14:54:47 <TrueBrain> best argument ever :D
14:55:46 <Alberth> almost infinite new opportunities to create nice non-reproducable bugs :p
14:55:51 <frosch123> i think semaphores are popular in this channel :p
14:56:28 <Alberth> nah, we just need more people :)
14:57:01 <Alberth> like #python, 700+ people chatting :)
14:57:47 <Alberth> mostly, but sometimes you get 4 discussions concurrently :)
15:00:14 <Korenn> Dommel was awesome, dutch stories but drawn by a japanese studio
15:03:15 <Korenn> Alberth: I was expecting a picture of beer :P
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15:29:25 <Terkhen> yay, I lost an hour because I confused the arguments of HasBit
15:32:14 <Terkhen> now I need a houses NewGRF that produces / accepts strange stuff
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16:22:52 <b_jonas> What's your experience with plastic glass frames? Is their material really better than it used to be a decade ago?
16:30:03 <Ammler> b_jonas: which newgrf?
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16:40:07 <b_jonas> Ammler: huh? in real life
16:40:54 <Ammler> real life is off topic here :-)
16:41:02 <__ln__> real life *is* a newgrf.
16:41:36 <Alberth> any form of 'real' is off-topic :p
16:41:57 <b_jonas> Ammler: there are railroad modelers here, I think they know all about plastics
16:42:05 <Alberth> most often in the form of 'realistic' :)
16:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> since when is this channel _not_ off topic?
16:47:37 <TrueBrain> who are you talking to? :P
16:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm praying to the almighty root
16:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
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17:04:08 <MNIM> Wait, we have somebody who knows the river dommel?
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17:26:38 <Rubidium> MNIM: I'd argue you ought to know it when you work so close to it
17:27:21 <MNIM> I thought alberth was german, actually.
17:31:24 * Rubidium wonders whether having been to Germany counts
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17:44:10 <Alberth> MNIM: why do you think so?
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17:51:44 <Alberth> it's just that several people have that idea, and I'd like to know why
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17:52:42 <Rubidium> "Frisians, the medieval and modern ethnic group inhabiting Frisia, a region on the western coasts of Germany [...]"
17:54:52 <Elukka> electric steam locomotive
17:54:57 <Alberth> Oh, I am German after all :p
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17:55:31 <Rubidium> the joys of selective quotations ;)
17:55:50 <frosch123> western coast of germany?
17:56:19 <planetmaker> Alberth: you have a strong dialect then :-P
17:56:24 <TWerkhoven> theres a tiny bit of it
17:57:07 <Alberth> planetmaker: hoho, Frisian is a real language! (not that I speak it though :) )
17:57:26 <planetmaker> yeah, I know. Officially acknowledged minority or so, right?
17:57:46 <Alberth> something like that :)
17:57:52 <frosch123> frisian is incomplete :p
17:58:04 * planetmaker should play in Frisian
17:58:12 <planetmaker> maybe I learn something ;-)
17:58:21 <Rubidium> it's such a minority language that it even has a 2 letter ISO 639 code
17:58:23 <TWerkhoven> theres a frisian translation?
17:58:53 <TWerkhoven> the benefits of opensource
17:58:54 <Alberth> frosch123: unfortunately, I can only understand it
17:58:54 <frosch123> it's not packaged in the nightly as it is too incomplete
17:59:05 <frosch123> 1047 missing strings
17:59:39 <frosch123> around 4000 strings per language
18:00:29 <Rubidium> Schwyzerdütsch doesn't even have a 2 letter ISO 639 code
18:01:53 <frosch123> frisian is spoken by 400.000 people according to wiki
18:02:08 <b_jonas> Rubidium: how about a three letter code?
18:02:30 <b_jonas> wait, let me look that up
18:02:33 <Rubidium> if a language has a 2 letter code, it has a 3 letter one as well
18:02:56 <b_jonas> I mean Schwyzerdütsch
18:03:18 <planetmaker> hm... in the context of iso 639 the word "macrolanguage" has an interesting meaning
18:04:11 <b_jonas> it seems Schwyzerdütsch has a three-letter iso639 code: gsw
18:04:45 <Rubidium> Dutch as well: dut and nld
18:05:28 <Rubidium> or ger/deu for German and fre/fra for French, yet English only has eng
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18:12:28 <z-MaTRiX> some new construction limits in-game?
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18:13:33 <planetmaker> z-MaTRiX: not that I'm aware of. Did you find a server which employs some?
18:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so if every language has a 3-letter code based on the english name, and one based on its native name. is there any wonder that both are the same for english?
18:13:59 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: not every language
18:14:10 <planetmaker> Servers can limit bulldoze / terraform for clients
18:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: ok, then fiddle "usually" and "most" into that sentence :)
18:15:20 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: Frisian = Frysk/fresk/friisk/frasch/Fräisk, and has fry as 3 letter code
18:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> was fri already taken?
18:16:19 <z-MaTRiX> Frisian Dew thats a nice flower
18:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> "Frisians, the medieval and modern ethnic group inhabiting Frisia, a region on the western coasts of Germany [...]" <-- that's not totally wrong, given "West Frisia", "East Frisia" and "North Frisia", 2 out of 3 are part of germany
18:21:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: coast of western germany != western coast of germany
18:21:42 <planetmaker> I think it can be understood both ways and both is correct
18:22:04 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that may depend on where you are standing :)
18:22:14 <frosch123> well, western coast would fit around 1400
18:23:11 * TWerkhoven wonders how many ppl are here from current-day friesland in the NL
18:23:53 <Rubidium> from as in "currently living" or "born in"? In both cases I'd say at least one
18:24:21 <TWerkhoven> i was born there, but moved to scotland 5 years ago
18:25:04 <TWerkhoven> and have since been mistaken for portugese, irish, german, spanish and english
18:25:30 <Rubidium> then I'd say resp. at least 1 and at least 3
18:25:45 <Rubidium> though I'd have guess you can from Utrecht (the province) ;)
18:28:19 <TWerkhoven> ah yes, forgot about that one
18:32:41 <TWerkhoven> never even been there though
18:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that reminds me... i never even asked where "Borstel" actually was...
18:38:38 <Rubidium> which of the two? ;)
18:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> as in "Ingo von"
18:40:49 <planetmaker> that depends, Eddi|zuHause
18:42:01 <Rubidium> ghehe... one is 127 km, the other 254 km from Braunschweig
18:42:07 <planetmaker> it's a common place name in North Western Germany with variations of *borstel and *bostel
18:42:33 <planetmaker> and has no relation to the Dutch word of "borstel" ;-)
18:42:54 <planetmaker> it derives from buar stell
18:43:02 <planetmaker> ethymologically speaking
18:45:19 <planetmaker> there's no exact town or village which I could point you to, though
18:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "(Stand: Kommunalwahl am 9. September 2001)" <- that page probably needs an update
18:50:56 <planetmaker> but the first mentioning of that place coincides with how far back I can roughly trace my name
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19:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i think one of my calculations was too evil: nmlc: "src/templates/gfx_templates.pnml", line 47: Real sprite paramater 'xsize' out of range 1..65535, encountered -18
19:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but if nmlc would tell me the include chain, it'd help tremendously actually figuring out _where_
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19:53:03 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23033 /trunk/src/music_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4776]: the last custom playlist items went lost when the files in the .obm are not contiguous
19:56:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23034 /trunk/src/music_gui.cpp: -Fix: make sure the custom playlists are 0 terminated
19:59:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23035 /trunk/src/music_gui.cpp: -Fix (r23034): compile failure
20:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... when was the last "compile before commit" commit?
20:01:09 <Terkhen> I made one of those months ago IIRC
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20:01:51 <Terkhen> code, compile, fix something that was forgotten, commit without compiling again
20:02:00 <Terkhen> hi LordAro and andythenorth
20:02:01 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: compile in the right directory before commit ;)
20:02:15 <Terkhen> does it have gnome 2?
20:02:39 <LordAro> and unity, unfortunately
20:03:11 <Terkhen> it feels as if I'm in a phone
20:03:15 <LordAro> 11.04 decided that unity wouldn't run on my pc, 11.10 decided it would, but my icons went missing, so i switched back
20:03:31 <LordAro> i like to know what programs i've got installed, not have to search for them
20:04:08 <LordAro> or at least, that was my impression of it
20:04:12 <Terkhen> I wonder if anyone did a serious fork of gnome2 already
20:04:26 * Rubidium wonders how much win something is that is said to be "the latest of everything" when it ships with an OpenTTD of over 13 months old...
20:05:33 <LordAro> "checking libtimidity... not found" and i'm getting sort of "bitty" music from ottd
20:05:45 <LordAro> libtimidity is installed, i've checked
20:05:47 <Terkhen> heh, it does not include a 1.1.x?
20:06:04 <LordAro> sound effects are fine
20:06:49 <LordAro> and its the same with 1.1.0
20:07:29 <Terkhen> I don't know, check the readme, I remember something about music
20:07:35 <Terkhen> I never use it anyways
20:07:52 <Rubidium> if it sounds wrong, then timdity is broken... not OpenTTD ;)
20:08:06 <Terkhen> I vaguely remember some problems with timidity back when I used ubuntu
20:08:29 <LordAro> it was fine with 11.04
20:09:05 <Rubidium> LordAro: I'd argue you don't have libtimidity installed
20:11:06 <LordAro> oh, my icons just went missing again - not unity's fault :)
20:12:37 * Rubidium ponders changing from Debian unstable to Ubuntu stable for the extra thrill of having lots of brokeness ;)
20:12:53 <Terkhen> hmm... I'll need to rethink my subsidies patch, you barely get any industry subsidies at all
20:14:00 <Terkhen> it's fun until something breaks
20:16:14 <LordAro> unless... libtimidity is not timidity
20:16:28 <Rubidium> have you read my link?
20:16:47 <Rubidium> it's a bug report about timidity not providing libtimidity
20:18:03 <Rubidium> as libtimidity is a separate project (I think some sort of ancient fork of timidity)
20:18:17 <Terkhen> confusing name then :P
20:23:52 <LordAro> hmm, how do you add new programs to ubuntu repos?
20:23:59 <LordAro> i can find nothing on the interwebs
20:24:09 <Terkhen> get them on debian first and wait? :P
20:25:14 * LordAro keeps pondering changing to debian
20:26:14 <Terkhen> when I think about changing distributions, I install them on a virtual machine first
20:26:21 <Terkhen> then I can play a bit and know for sure if I like them or not
20:27:13 <LordAro> i did that, but never get around to using it :)
20:34:05 <Alberth> just install the new distribution :)
20:34:48 <Alberth> you're missing a 'hey'
20:35:41 <heyhey> lol just started playing openttd, found the channel, happy to see there's a place to chat about it
20:36:33 <Alberth> actually other topics dominate the channel, but discussions about openttd are fine too :)
20:37:17 <heyhey> cool, my wife is not happy I found this game though, like once you get a game going it's hard to stop for a couple of hours
20:37:46 <heyhey> is there a list of like tested patches out there, I was on the forums but it's really hard to sort what's good and not buggy
20:39:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "couple of hours"? did you mean "couple of days"? :p
20:39:09 <Rubidium> I'd argue that most if not all of the good and not buggy patches are already in OpenTTD
20:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause> your best bet about semi-useful patches is a patchpack, but there hasn't been one in the past few months
20:41:18 <heyhey> ok, I just downloaded a bunch from within the game too, just wanted some more maps and modern vehicles
20:42:10 <Eddi|zuHause> those are NewGRFs, not patches
20:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> important difference
20:42:51 <heyhey> ok, my mistake, I was referring to that then..
20:43:52 * Terkhen likes OpenGFX+ sets, but those don't change much
20:44:18 <heyhey> can I get firs/heqs within the download content of within the game?
20:44:32 <Pinkbeast> It does seem a pity that every patchpack person starts with a few really nice ones, expands to something the size of the Moon, and burns out.
20:44:57 <heyhey> ya, looking for one geared with vehicles
20:45:18 <Terkhen> I kept mine reasonably small until I abandoned it for obvious reasons :P
20:45:31 <Pinkbeast> heyhey> You still seem to be a bit confused between patchpacks and newgrfs
20:45:56 <andythenorth> heyhey: the latest FIRS also needs a nightly build of the game (not the 'release')
20:46:13 <Terkhen> hey, don't start confusing him already :P
20:46:26 <heyhey> ya I get confused easily already
20:46:54 <andythenorth> I forgot that FIRS needed the nightly until after I posted the link :P
20:47:15 <heyhey> ya I like the newgrfs you can just click install right within the game
20:47:23 <Terkhen> heyhey: the newest FIRS (with a lot of new nice stuff) requires a version of OpenTTD that still hasn't been released (called a nightly)
20:47:33 <Terkhen> but you can find a previous version on the online content that works fine too
20:47:47 <Terkhen> to start with the game you don't need bleeding edge :)
20:48:11 <Terkhen> if you use a industry NewGRF such as FIRS, you also need vehicle NewGRFs
20:48:12 <heyhey> nah I just want some updated planes/vehicles/trains that sort of thing, like that goes into futuristic stuff as well
20:48:28 <Terkhen> because the old vehicles won't be able to carry the new cargos
20:49:51 <heyhey> ya this is the one I had installed av8 for planes, going to look for some more
20:49:59 <Terkhen> for ships I like FISH, for vehicles, eGRVTS + HEQS, for planes av8
20:50:09 <Terkhen> of course that's just my personal opinion :)
20:50:15 * Terkhen does not have a favourite train set
20:50:32 <Pinkbeast> For trains is a trickier one but I would gently suggest URKS1 for people who don't know what they want
20:50:59 <heyhey> is anyone as old as me in here? i'm 32 and playing a game like this lol my wife thinks I'm nuts
20:51:31 <Pinkbeast> You're younger than me, at the very least.
20:51:44 <Terkhen> older than me, but I usually feel young here
20:52:27 <heyhey> also, terk, is there a good AI that is able to use those grfs or no?
20:52:51 <heyhey> I added some AIs, but like even after 10 years, they just sit there having done nothing
20:53:06 <heyhey> or some start then just stop building a bit into it
20:53:30 <Pinkbeast> NoCAB is most likely to muddle through random grf selections (but just clogs all the roads up with vehicles 90% of the time).
20:53:35 <Terkhen> I usually play alone or multiplayer
20:53:40 <Pinkbeast> AdmiralAI sometimes does well, sometimes chokes.
20:53:47 <Terkhen> but I know that many AIs require a lot of time to plan what to do
20:54:25 <Pinkbeast> trAIns, Choo Choo, and "Denver and Rio Grande" all sometimes manage to build working railway operations.
20:54:28 <Yexo> heyhey: I'm aware of at least one 72 year old person playing openttd
20:54:49 <peter1138> Belugas is not that old
20:55:18 <heyhey> ok, so then I can tell my wife a lot of older guys are playing too and I'm not that out of my mind
20:55:37 <Pinkbeast> I doubt they are all "guys" either
20:55:44 <andythenorth> heyhey: younger than me
20:55:54 <andythenorth> I played the original in 1994 :P
20:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i think 32 fits right into the main target group, the group of people who played this game in the mid 90's as kids
20:56:39 <heyhey> ya, honestly I love these games, are there any new ones in development, I know Cities in motion or XL wasn'tt oo good
21:00:58 <LordAro> Alberth (and a few others) started freerct a few weeks ago - it'll be several months before there's anything useable, however
21:02:41 <Elukka> heyhey: i don't really know of any
21:02:56 <Elukka> i still want a replacement for sim city 4 too but nobody's made a better citybuilder so far
21:03:00 <heyhey> ya, they don't make games like they used to now
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21:03:56 <Pinkbeast> And Sim City (2-4) are pretty badly stuck in the American "everybody drives" mentality
21:04:12 <Pinkbeast> ... let alone trying to set up a city where nobody drives
21:04:35 <Elukka> public transport has worked pretty well in my towns
21:04:45 <Elukka> might be due to the expansion pack, might be due to mods, dunno
21:05:21 <Elukka> vanilla sim city is like a bizarre mix of america and china, really :P
21:05:32 <Elukka> america for the aesthetics, china because it's the only place where modern cities just spring out of nothing like that
21:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there are some mods which change the penalties for using transports
21:18:55 <yrol> Does someone here know what "openttd plus" is? i am trying out the latest ( v13.5) build of chills patchpack and get an errormessage about that grf producing an error/missing and searched a bit around and it seems to be some addon, yet i dont know where to find it.
21:20:40 <Terkhen> I don't know what is openttd plus, but if you have a problem with a patchpack you should ask at the patchpack thread
21:20:55 <Terkhen> the patchpack author will know how to help you better than us :)
21:21:11 <Yexo> IIRC "openttd plus" is some random grf that tries to fix some already fixed problems or so
21:21:20 <yrol> Yes, sadky, Chill seems to have left.
21:21:51 <yrol> ah, i wonder how it got into the requirements for the build, it wasnt in my .cfg file
21:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> chills patchpack requires some additional base GRFs
21:23:03 <Elukka> i think chill mentioned he's busy with moving and other such real life things but is interested in continuing with the patch pack later when he has more time
21:23:13 <yrol> can a build, at first start edit the openttd.cfg and include a grf? it seems so, as now i have that grf in the list
21:23:30 <Yexo> yrol: it's a broken newgrf (it says it uses nfo version 1)
21:23:52 <Terkhen> yrol: a build can do anything, that's why the best place to ask is the patchpack thread itself
21:23:57 <Yexo> older versions of openttd didn't check that version, more recent versions like chills patachpack do and simply don't load these grfs
21:24:03 <Terkhen> but I don't think that chills patchpack includes a broken newgrf on purpose
21:24:30 <Yexo> are you sure the message was about that grf missing/
21:24:36 <Yexo> and when did you get that message?
21:24:38 <V453000> you mean TD DP+ trains?
21:25:21 <V453000> yes that is incompatible with new OpenTTDs :)
21:25:46 <LordAro> it annoyed me so much i deleted it :)
21:25:50 <V453000> well it did not bring anything interesting in the game anyway
21:26:11 <LordAro> in fact, can someone change it's database things on bananas? limit it to 1.0.x
21:27:07 <yrol> yexo, i am using chills patchpack v13.5 with the v1.2.0.2253 build and get a "ignoring invalid newgrf:openttd plus\ottdpp.grf, incompatible version to this openttd version"-error. it jsut made me wonder because i have not included ( as it is not in the repository of the ingame newgrf-list.
21:27:31 <Yexo> yrol: do you get that message in the console?
21:27:41 <LordAro> that's more a warning rather than an error
21:28:56 <yrol> yexo, no, in a separate window right afer starting the exe ( win xp sp3 32 bit ) i can click OK and apperently its not a big showstopper...then though i get a nasty second popup about a missing "flat_blacktiles.grf" which then crashes the ( still starting, no GUI shown ) game.
21:30:19 <yrol> and that one i dont even have in the grf-list
21:31:02 <peter1138> you get the error if the file is in your newgrf directories
21:31:41 <peter1138> it's picked up during the scan to see what newgrfs are available
21:31:50 <peter1138> basically, ignore it
21:32:18 <Eddi|zuHause> flat_blacktiles errors you get when you don't follow the installation instructions
21:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and the other error is fairly certainly because the grf is in your .cfg
21:39:37 <yrol> peter1138, this warning: "ignoring invalid newgrf:openttd plus\ottdpp.grf, incompatible version to this openttd version"
21:40:21 <yrol> hm, i found now some files that i should have downloaded and installed and did that.
21:45:31 <yrol> woohoo :o) after some more renaming, it works now, thanks for the help.
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22:03:20 <peter1138> yrol, yeah, that's the warning i was talking about
22:05:15 <yrol> peter1138, it vanished after i started the game once and exited it again ( as usual )
22:05:42 <yrol> hm, out of curiousity, not to beg... why do useful and neat features like the copy patch do not make it into trunk?
22:06:32 <yrol> is it because it is too buggy or because it is seen as too.. uhm... easy to build then things?
22:08:09 <Ammler> the former, but the latter is also true :-)
22:11:53 <yrol> but would not including such features make the game more open to newbies who maybe are a bit overwhelmed by (in this case ) the whole station and tracks-building with all the signals and stuff? or... do you not want new players who aint able to cope with the depth of the game as it is?
22:13:51 <Yexo> yrol: there have certainly been discussions about whether or not we'd want such a patch at all
22:14:11 <Yexo> but so far there has not even a decent patch be created, so starting the discussion again is quite useless
22:14:39 <Ammler> I don't think such a feature would be useful for a newbie
22:15:21 <Ammler> it could be useful to make boring test cases
22:17:08 <yrol> Yexo, "there have certainly been discussions" i can imagine that. I looked around the wiki and the design-example for stations, junctions and the like are... well... crazy.With having the copy paste patch in trunk, it ertainly would be easier for players to re-create them and by that perhaps only copy stuff, instead of -learn- how it all works, resulting in less sophisticated palyers.
22:18:50 <Yexo> it's not so much about that (I honestly couldn't care less how sophesticated the players are). There are however some "problems" of how and when to allow it in multiplayer
22:19:40 <Yexo> and I always doubt the usefulness for almost all junctions, since as soon as you play even on "normal" terrain roughness you won't be able to paste most of the time due to height level differences
22:20:45 <yrol> right, i always play on the most flat terain possible ( chills patchpackallows even more flat) and it wojuld need major landscaping ( and fund ) to realize many of the more complicated designs
22:22:44 <Yexo> maybe half the "complicated" designs on the wiki are not good at all
22:24:36 <yrol> i think they have their use in a "build"-environment, you know, like... creating artful installations, i can not really imagine them being useful to build ( although they may have their use as finished designs )
22:25:03 <yrol> ( on a 12000x12000 map winjks )
22:25:51 <b_jonas> Yexo: the problem is, most of the designs on the wiki are from the era before path-signals
22:25:57 <yrol> still, hats off to the designers of those designs
22:26:11 <b_jonas> I'd like guides for how to use designs with path signals
22:26:22 <Yexo> b_jonas: even without path signals most are not that good
22:26:48 <Yexo> for junctions or for stations?
22:26:59 <b_jonas> Yexo: both, and also for depots
22:27:20 <Yexo> I don't think anything has changed for depots
22:27:45 <Yexo> for junctions and stations; build rail like before, replace entry signal by path signal, remove all combo and exit signals. That should work in most cases
22:27:49 <b_jonas> depots might not have changed much but there's very few guidance about them on the wiki
22:28:16 <b_jonas> and sometimes you want depots next to stations or junctions so if that is a good design that should be shown in the designs for junctions and signals
22:28:22 <Yexo> it really depends on your playstyle and settings
22:28:33 <b_jonas> a mo, let me parse that
22:28:40 <Yexo> I always play with breakdowns off so I don't care about depots
22:29:06 <b_jonas> so you say I should always remove all the exit signals? for both ro-ro and terminus stations?
22:29:22 <yrol> there is replacing though, so depot placement has -some- importance
22:29:48 <b_jonas> as for "like before", I couldn't build good networks before
22:29:53 <Yexo> yrol: true, but for that I usually just place depots directly connected to my rail somewhere
22:30:17 <yrol> Yexo, hm, temporary Depots?
22:30:56 <Yexo> not temporary, but I just don't care about make small sidelines for depots so trains don't block the rail as long when they come out
22:31:04 <Yexo> since they only go in for replacements it doesn't matter so much
22:32:16 <yrol> Oh, this daylength patch is great! finally not so muchstress anymore
22:32:25 <b_jonas> I didn't know I should rea the openttdcoop wiki even if I don't play on their server
22:32:47 <Yexo> a lot of the information on the wiki is useful for all players
22:34:08 <b_jonas> I will look at it later
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