IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-14
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06:46:27 <Korenn> Terkhen: w00t, did I read the backlog right, you worked on the subsidies patch?
06:48:55 <Terkhen> it's kind of finished
06:49:06 <Terkhen> I only need to modify the subsidies themselves
06:49:11 <Terkhen> but all the prerrequisites are done
06:56:34 <Korenn> you discounted picking high producing unserviced industries and generating a subsidy from that?
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06:58:09 <Terkhen> I have not discounted anything... but after a night's rest I'm wondering if I'm trying to do too much with a single patch; maybe it should just fix the choosing of all possible sources and destinations without the current artificial restrictions
06:58:21 <Terkhen> a different patch could take care of better choosing of subsidies
06:58:42 <Korenn> or it could even simply recreate the old behaviour first
06:58:54 <Terkhen> the new patch would take into account distance, production and anything else that is considered
06:59:13 <Terkhen> yes, that's what I meant... old behavior except that it does not use TE to make assumptions about destination
06:59:34 <Terkhen> as a result of that assumption, we don't have mail subsidies for example
06:59:42 <Terkhen> I never noticed until I checked the code, but there is a FS task about it
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07:03:28 <Terkhen> good morning norbert79
07:21:35 <Korenn> Terkhen: eventually, subsidies could be used to stimulate building industry chains: generate subsidies to ship secondary or tertiary cargo that isn't being created yet, with a much longer running / completion time
07:22:48 <Terkhen> Korenn: makes sense, more reasons to keep it separate from what I'm doing now as it does not seem as simple as I thought first
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08:58:34 <b_jonas> Korenn: I don't seed why you'd need subsidies for that. The way goods pays a lot already stimulates building industry chains.
08:59:22 <b_jonas> Also, an industry chain when you transmit from multiple primary industries to a single factory lets you have a single secondary industry that produces more, which alone lets you have more efficient train lines.
09:01:04 <Terkhen> that's one of the arguments against making subisides more complex: they are usually ignored by everyone
09:02:34 <b_jonas> maybe if they were active for more than one year, that would help
09:03:30 <b_jonas> also, perhaps they should specify only one of the source and the destination
09:03:38 <b_jonas> but I'm not so sure about this latetr
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09:04:39 <Terkhen> sounds complicated :)
09:05:30 <b_jonas> making them all last four years wouldn't be too complicated
09:06:18 <norbert79> b_jonas: Aye... I also started ignoring susidaries, because the compensation given was useless. It would be nice gaining more support from local towns when winning a subsidary...
09:06:19 <Ammler> Brianetta: openttdcoop.ppcis.org is dead :'-(
09:08:29 <norbert79> b_jonas: Just think about it: You are being asked for a road to make. What you get: You have to build the road, you have to start the buses, you have to make everything, and for that you get a bonus of 3.5% for each transfer... Very "charming" especially for smaller towns
09:09:16 <norbert79> and you are also limited on placing the stations, because one wrong move, and your rating will fall down into the dumps
09:09:44 <b_jonas> yep, I'm more careful with stations these days
09:10:13 <b_jonas> sometimes I build a 2x6 passenger station in a town before I start to terraform nearby, just so that I can restore my reputation later
09:10:21 <norbert79> so the compensation should be rethought in my opinion
09:10:31 <b_jonas> or build small passenger service buses or trains just to increase rep
09:11:17 <b_jonas> but I like that, town reps do make the game more interesting
09:11:24 <norbert79> in the end you will end up regaining the money within 5-10 years, where the bonus is being payed for a year
09:11:49 <norbert79> so no wonder everyone is ignoring subsidaries
09:12:15 <b_jonas> in fact, for most of the buses the big win is not how much the bus gains now but how it makes the city grow so you can make large airports to it
09:12:33 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
09:13:01 <norbert79> b_jonas: Sure, but this only limits the usage of subsidaries
09:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> IMHO, subsidies should be tied into a scriptable goals framework
09:16:20 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Creating different types of subs this way?
09:16:28 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Like giving specific bonuses
09:16:52 <norbert79> that would make sense
09:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> or some tutorial-like behaviour like "first, pick these two cities and introduce a passenger service"
09:17:33 <Terkhen> yes, I also think that changes of the level you are suggesting should go into a goal framework
09:17:43 <Terkhen> I just want to fix "vanilla" subsidies a bit
09:18:04 <norbert79> if it doesn't modifies original behaviour, unless set through advanced options
09:18:55 <b_jonas> Increase them to four years!
09:19:51 <Terkhen> subsidy duration and maximum distance between source and destination could be easily turned into advanced settings
09:20:02 <Terkhen> but we have too many advanced settings already :P
09:20:30 <planetmaker> Newgrf-interface :-P
09:20:53 <planetmaker> as town variables
09:20:56 <Terkhen> we should just make a huge NewGRF engine and let users build their own game
09:21:36 <norbert79> lol, Terkhen, I think players would actually like it :) Yet it sounds indeed good, since it almost takes ages for one configuring adabvnced options and NewGRF settings for making a specific game :)
09:22:04 <Terkhen> maybe they should be openttd.cfg only options
09:22:05 <norbert79> like if I want to start a US transport scenario with FIRS for example...
09:22:30 <norbert79> Terkhen: Nah, hiding everything in openttd.cfg is not really good neither...
09:22:39 <norbert79> Terkhen: What about a seperate option for this?
09:22:52 <Terkhen> IMO it is advanced enough, like the pathfinder settings
09:22:54 <norbert79> or having the settings divided into tabs
09:23:04 <norbert79> and not just listed
09:23:29 <Terkhen> IIRC *someone* had a project to fix setting display once and for all
09:23:45 <Terkhen> I wonder what happened :P
09:23:50 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why do I have the feeling you are talking about yourself? :)
09:23:58 <Terkhen> I don't know, it wasn't me
09:24:15 <Terkhen> if it was me, "lazyness" would be what happened
09:24:26 <Terkhen> I wouldn't need to wonder much :P
09:26:12 <planetmaker> "once and for all"?
09:26:18 <planetmaker> is there such solution anywhere?
09:26:46 <norbert79> Well, a Firefox kind of a look (Tabs on top, options listed, and divided by lines) would be ok
09:27:05 <norbert79> just a different view
09:27:18 <planetmaker> that's what we had before ;-)
09:27:37 <norbert79> Guess you need to reimplement it, since it's easy getting lost :)
09:27:42 <Terkhen> we need an advanced setting to decide how to display advanced settings
09:27:49 <Terkhen> because I prefer what we have now to tabs :P
09:28:03 <planetmaker> I prefer the current view, too
09:28:07 <planetmaker> we'd have too many tabs
09:28:22 <norbert79> Only the main categories would be needed in tabs
09:28:28 <planetmaker> yes. Did you count them?
09:28:36 <planetmaker> And try to put their names next to eachother?
09:28:47 <planetmaker> it'd be wider than my screen
09:29:06 <norbert79> why not using icons instead of the names? :)
09:29:47 <norbert79> and only make the names visible when hovering over them with the mouse
09:29:52 <planetmaker> I still don't see the advantage over current view even now
09:30:04 <planetmaker> you just hide everything except the category by clicking the (+)
09:30:11 <Terkhen> you need to know what the icons mean then
09:30:20 <Terkhen> might be clear for "vehicles" not so clear for "interface"
09:30:26 <norbert79> Terkhen: "<norbert79> and only make the names visible when hovering over them with the mouse"
09:30:32 <norbert79> Like with the main tools
09:30:52 <planetmaker> norbert79: but where's then the difference to now?
09:31:02 <norbert79> It would be less confusing...
09:31:02 <Terkhen> advanced options are complex enough already to force the user to look at tooltips just for category types
09:31:16 <planetmaker> the tree view gives you all opions quickly accessible. nicely structured
09:31:18 <Brianetta> Ammler: ppcis.org is dead.
09:31:18 <norbert79> The density of the information is too much for me despite (+) and (-)
09:31:33 <norbert79> it's just too thick
09:31:51 <planetmaker> that's why it's "advanced" options
09:31:54 <planetmaker> normally not needed
09:32:20 <planetmaker> there was the idea to introduce different "levels" of 'advanced' which shows more or less options
09:32:23 <norbert79> Considering how much plus the game already has, Advanced options is being part of "MUST"
09:32:30 <Terkhen> now that I remember, there was a big post about completely remaking all options GUI at the forums
09:35:17 <norbert79> Terkhen: Got link to that?
09:35:26 <norbert79> I would like to go through of it
09:36:39 <b_jonas> planetmaker: rather then different levels, I think there should be different sets of defaults, possibly savable, and at least two sets of defaults distributed with ottd: namely a ttd/ttdp-compatibility, and a modern set.
09:36:50 <b_jonas> the modern set could change in every release.
09:37:27 <b_jonas> the problem is, historically many advanced settings default to compatibility, which doesn't help new players (unfamiliar with ttd and ottd) too much.
09:38:04 <planetmaker> that is changed from time to time ;-)
09:38:13 <norbert79> b_jonas: And since too many options already it makes them just confused, which soon can make the mood to go away for creating new servers
09:38:33 <planetmaker> openttd doesn't behave so much as TTD anymore with its default settings
09:38:45 <norbert79> b_jonas: and then they go back to CoD and forget about TTD and OpenTTD :)
09:39:02 <Terkhen> norbert79: nope, sorry
09:39:16 <norbert79> Terkhen: Did you had any entry written there?
09:39:16 <planetmaker> norbert79: you don't need to change any settings...
09:39:24 <planetmaker> it works usually out-of-box
09:39:32 <Rubidium> creating new servers? Please not ;)
09:39:41 <b_jonas> planetmaker: even if the defaults change, that don't give a player like me an easy way to upgrade the changed options to modern
09:39:43 <planetmaker> creating new players?
09:39:47 <Rubidium> people already "complain" that they can't find a populated server
09:39:52 <norbert79> Rubidium: Can't master keep up with the current ones? :))
09:39:54 <Terkhen> yes, we should focus on creating new players
09:39:57 <planetmaker> b_jonas: it does: delete openttd.cfg
09:39:59 <b_jonas> should I just delete my config file to let openttd restore the new ones?
09:40:16 <b_jonas> and then diff3 my settings like I do with my editor config files :-)
09:40:31 <b_jonas> hmm, I might try that
09:40:39 <Rubidium> norbert79: there are ~220 servers and ~110 clients
09:40:43 <planetmaker> b_jonas: newgrf presets and setting presets as "downloadable items" would make sense
09:40:49 <norbert79> Rubidium: That's a bad ratio...
09:41:05 <planetmaker> newgrf presets need a way to work without the exact newgrf version, though
09:41:09 <Rubidium> norbert79: and rarely *ever* does the ratio get about 1:1 (i.e. more clients than servers)
09:41:10 <Terkhen> setting presets would be nice, yes
09:41:13 <b_jonas> maybe I'm too unixy, but I don't get the point of all these "downloadable items" stuff
09:41:21 <Rubidium> which is why adding more servers is not a good thing to do
09:41:28 <b_jonas> can't you just make those presents just plain files so I can download them with a browser?
09:41:39 <norbert79> Rubidium: Would be worth thinking about how that could happen...
09:41:40 <b_jonas> same way as you can download AIs as files too
09:41:41 <Terkhen> you can download them with a browser too if you want to
09:41:51 <planetmaker> b_jonas: "downloadable item" as in "online content download -> select 'this setting' -> click 'download' -> done"
09:42:00 <peter1138> yeah, hardly any players, considering ottd's supposedly a popular game
09:42:08 <peter1138> i'm guessing it's not
09:42:13 <Terkhen> or "update all my content", or "download all the content I need to run this particular savegame"
09:42:34 <planetmaker> well, settings are never required for a particular savegame ;-)
09:42:35 <b_jonas> Terkhen: hmm, possible
09:42:36 <Terkhen> which, considering the amount of content, are awesome options
09:42:44 <Terkhen> oh, I was talking about downloadable content
09:42:49 <norbert79> peter1138: Well, Steve Jobs could make a very small mp3 player sell for the 5 times actually is worth, and it has pretty nice attraction.. :)
09:43:02 <peter1138> so we have to sell ottd?
09:43:04 <Terkhen> IMO OpenTTD is mainly played as single player
09:43:16 <peter1138> how do you know that?
09:43:16 <Rubidium> norbert79: servers are too easy too set up and there aren't enough costs to make running an empty server unfeasible
09:43:26 <norbert79> peter1138: Not really, but making more adverts to that would attract probably more players. Take a look on Angry Birds for example
09:43:41 * peter1138 tries in #minecraft ;p
09:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... any chance that openttd could display the savegame's game version string, even though it's currently viewed in an invalid version?
09:44:16 <Terkhen> is that stored somewhere?
09:44:17 <norbert79> Rubidium: That's not a problem, the problem is the ammount of players...
09:44:20 <b_jonas> planetmaker: settings are never required for a particular savegame? this channel has recently told me that I should disable realistic acceleration to make the horse-drawn carriages from eGRVTS work (otherwise they go with 1 km/h only).
09:44:25 <planetmaker> 116 people playing
09:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: it should be in the game log
09:44:42 <norbert79> Rubidium: But think about it: this only means, that only those players are finding OpenTTD interesting, who spend the time even creating a server
09:44:54 <Rubidium> norbert79: lots of servers are unmanaged, meaning that someone can easily mess up the joy for others
09:45:02 <planetmaker> b_jonas: yes. But the game 'works' without. And the setting "realistic accel for RV yes/no" is stored in the savegame.
09:45:11 <planetmaker> And using a different setting preset won't change your savegame either
09:45:22 <b_jonas> norbert79: what? I find openttd interesting but I've not created a server.
09:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> like, if some kind of developer setting is activated, show a button "show gamelog" in the load window
09:45:36 <norbert79> Rubidium: Not really... I think OpenTTD is even better mnanaged than COD2 is. Every addon is available online, no need for spending too much time breaking your head for understanding how it works.
09:45:47 <Rubidium> which is why so many servers are basically not populated *ever*, besides for someone trying and getting pissed off by some annoying other player that loves trashing other people's fun
09:45:52 <norbert79> b_jonas: But the game would need more of such :)
09:45:59 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: sounds useful
09:46:44 <b_jonas> in fact, shouldn't most new players learn in single player first before they join to servers?
09:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: i don't see how that would be a requirement
09:47:16 <planetmaker> hm... popularity contest: display the total playing-hours on a server averaged over a month ;-)
09:47:21 <planetmaker> could be faked then easily
09:47:40 <planetmaker> b_jonas: mostly I didn't
09:47:42 <Terkhen> if the server is taken care off and it has a nice community, new players could learn there too
09:47:56 <b_jonas> norbert79: the problem is, the addons are available from the online window, but they're not easily available in any other way, such as directly from http, especailly if you want source and if you don't ask the irc channel about where everything is hidden.
09:47:57 <planetmaker> after one, two games I started playing online. And nearly only do so
09:48:17 <planetmaker> b_jonas: the readme of them could tell you
09:48:24 <norbert79> Rubidium: I just don't know, maybe this game is just for specific players only, but what is for sure, that Angry Bird (despite it's pretty easy gameplay) got more attraction, than OpenTTD, where OpenTTD is much more...
09:48:31 <Terkhen> planetmaker: you would be surprised by the amount of FPS game servers that list a false max_players - 1 amount of connected players :P
09:48:44 <norbert79> b_jonas: I agree partly, since many release the GRF's in FOrums only
09:48:44 <b_jonas> planetmaker: they should.
09:48:49 <Terkhen> and that's because Angry Birds is more "casual"
09:48:53 <b_jonas> planetmaker: often, even the license conditions aren't included in the binary dist
09:49:15 <planetmaker> norbert79: which important grfs were released forum-only?
09:49:30 <planetmaker> except by a single person?
09:49:39 <b_jonas> Terkhen: yep, for the GRFs, but why isn't there a clear link from the openttd server and from this topic
09:49:42 <Terkhen> (every addon available through the online content of course)
09:49:46 <b_jonas> Terkhen: and the AIs are in a different place I think
09:49:56 <Terkhen> no, AIs are there too
09:50:12 <Terkhen> and if you want ingame links... you need to come up with a good multiplatform way to open browsers from OpenTTD
09:50:25 <norbert79> planetmaker: Can't come up with an exact example, but take screewnshots, where someone starts a game starting in 1800. It looks awesome, releases the GRF list (a list in HTML format or plain text would be useful), and when I start to do the same, I find, that 75% of the content is only available, and importants were missing
09:50:37 <b_jonas> Terkhen: if you really want them, I'll look at how to do taht
09:50:55 <Terkhen> it's something I would love to have, yes
09:51:08 <b_jonas> wait, I'll write that up
09:51:13 <norbert79> planetmaker: I think restricting releases of GRF's in Bananas only would help a bit... or releases of GRF lists, which can be copy-pasted into openTTD.cfg
09:51:47 <norbert79> planetmaker: So one can just start playing using the same scenario/mood/...
09:51:49 <Terkhen> people can release NewGRF files as they want to... it's not something we can (and IMO should) control
09:51:54 <planetmaker> err? why would that help and how could that be faciliated?
09:51:55 <b_jonas> still, I'd like an easy link to bananas from the openttd homepage, and a link to source and terms of copying in the binary dist of most grfs
09:52:13 <planetmaker> and yes, why should we even attempt to control newgrf development?
09:52:30 <Terkhen> b_jonas: LordAro was working in a patch for displaying the README files of downloadable content
09:53:03 <Terkhen> hmmm... he hasn't been in this channel for a while
09:53:12 <norbert79> planetmaker: One example: go inside any screenshots page, and you will see often some cool pictures. Now normally noone starts with listing exactly what GRF's one has used. I would be happy having a quote from the openttd.cfg where I cxan see the files he used, or somehow able to click a file, which automatically downloads all necessary GRF files... Or something.
09:53:33 <norbert79> planetmaker: Let me find an example
09:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> people can release NewGRF files as they want to... it's not something we can (and IMO should) control <-- actually we should, just to make MB's worst nightmares come true :p
09:53:45 <Terkhen> norbert79: you can get that list... as long as the png file was saved using the ingame screenshot option and not modified later
09:53:51 <b_jonas> ah yes, the screenshots page is hopelessly obsolate
09:54:17 * Terkhen appoints Eddi|zuHause as the leader of the future OpenTTD Thought Police
09:54:26 <planetmaker> norbert79: osie is your friend, if it's a screenshot made ingame
09:54:49 <norbert79> Terkhen: Ok, I will just show you an example... SOme people use 10-25 GRF's art the same time, and no options are listed either. I would be happy having a .grf_list for example, which would include all GRF's to be used, including options listed too, like an scn file
09:55:01 <Terkhen> norbert79: that's what osie does
09:55:02 <Eddi|zuHause> more image viewers should have builtin metadata viewers...
09:55:08 <Terkhen> I'm not sure about the options, though
09:55:15 <Terkhen> maybe we should have an online version of osie
09:55:22 <planetmaker> it's all written in the png header of screenshots
09:55:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: See? I wsn't aware of this, unless I don't mention... See, this is why this game scares people away. Many functions must be hunted for
09:55:42 <planetmaker> I don't see how that scares people
09:55:46 <norbert79> planetmaker: Now you shared this with me, now I know...
09:55:57 <planetmaker> I don't know any other game where a screenshot lists the used add-ons or mods
09:56:07 <Terkhen> well, we have a wiki :)
09:56:15 <planetmaker> nor actually any other game which has such convenient tool as osie
09:56:20 <Rubidium> hmm... the advanced settings having too many settings and too dense on information, and then complaining that the game doesn't provide enough?
09:56:39 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ok, generic way of a user: user finds game, is happy starts playing. Sees new possibilites starts asking. He checks servers, gets confused by many options. Wants to try new things, he gets let down because noone wants to implement in main, but 'use GRF'.. then comes the GRF hell...
09:57:11 <Terkhen> norbert79: what should we do to fix that?
09:57:27 <norbert79> Terkhen: That needs more thinking, I can't answer this for you in 5 minutes...
09:57:28 <planetmaker> grfs are just downloaded via online content. Easy as pie. Activate those grfs which you like. Easy as pie, too
09:57:28 <Terkhen> and "implement in main" is not an option
09:57:59 <Terkhen> I don't know how to solve it either, besides "fix the wiki" :)
09:58:00 <Rubidium> ah, so OpenTTD should out of the box provide *all* imaginable trains, wagons and features in a single game?
09:58:06 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ok, did you ever got through all the GRF's? Bananas is very tight on info, downloader is a bit easier, but still gives you not much info...
09:58:23 <planetmaker> norbert79: probably I went through all grfs, yes
09:58:40 <norbert79> planetmaker: You did... But generic users won't
09:59:08 <planetmaker> each grf is an add-on written by another user to faciliate a different effect
09:59:13 <Terkhen> they can ask for NewGRF suggestions at the forums, many do that
09:59:16 <planetmaker> how could it in principle be simpliefied?
09:59:23 <Terkhen> or ask here (which is what I did)
09:59:37 <planetmaker> different people have different tastes of what constitutes a good selection, chocie or everything
09:59:52 <Rubidium> good luck finding a large part of them though
09:59:54 <norbert79> Guys, don't you get it? You always tell why I am wrong, and why something is good as it is, you never rerally consider possibilites, or think through criticism... See, this is also one thing which is something I find problematic.
10:00:25 <Terkhen> what I try to point is: "I don't know how to make it better, do you?"
10:00:38 <Terkhen> because I honestly don't
10:00:45 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why shall one MUST be involved with development if coming up with ideas?
10:01:09 <norbert79> If someone comes up with something: go and make a NewGRf
10:01:11 <Terkhen> that's what I'm asking for... ideas to solve the issues you mention
10:01:19 <norbert79> if someone would like to add: go and make a GRF
10:01:32 <norbert79> it's always the same
10:01:55 <Terkhen> I'm a bit lost, I think that you changed the conversation topic :)
10:02:10 <Terkhen> anyways, what should be implemented ingame instead of using a NewGRF in your opinion?
10:02:11 <Rubidium> really? If it makes sense to implement it as a GRF then yes, it should be a GRF. Not yet another setting.
10:02:26 <norbert79> See? Again: It is as good as it is...
10:02:44 <Rubidium> huh? Why should we implement German trains?
10:02:55 <Rubidium> why should that become a setting?
10:03:12 <Rubidium> instead of "downloadable content"?
10:03:13 <planetmaker> it's a setting. In the newgrf menu ;-)
10:03:29 <Terkhen> norbert79: sorry, but I need an example
10:03:33 <norbert79> I give up.. The problem is, that you never really try to think through, and you mainly never answeer a question, but ask back.. This is the annoying part.
10:03:38 <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, if you wait a bit
10:04:35 <Terkhen> I ask back because telling us random ideas and expect us to develop the idea itself taking into account every problem and then coding it is IMO not fair with our work
10:04:46 <norbert79> You are the developers, not me
10:04:50 <norbert79> why are you suprised?
10:05:09 <Terkhen> but you know enough about the game to participate in discussions about new options
10:05:37 <norbert79> Terkhen: But generic users don't, and if they even try to get involved, they always end up being forced creating a GRF...
10:05:49 <Terkhen> hmm... that's a screenshot thread, what does it have to do with "whenever I ask something, I get told to do a NewGRF"?
10:05:52 <norbert79> anyway, one problem: check the picture listing all the GRF's
10:06:11 <norbert79> now try to get all of these.. I failed
10:06:35 <Terkhen> that means that some NewGRF authors refuse to distribute their NewGRFs via bananas
10:06:49 <Terkhen> or that the user is using unreleased versions of NewGRFs
10:07:01 <Terkhen> what can be we do about that?
10:07:02 <norbert79> See, just one idea: it would be much nicer having an option file exceprt including parameters, so one can just click the list, and this GRF list would be added
10:07:10 <norbert79> if present in Bananas
10:07:14 <planetmaker> norbert79: so. Now, how can the _game_ or _we_ help to make it easier to explain where *someone* got *his* newgrfs for *his* game on his *private* computer?
10:07:16 <Terkhen> download the savegame, try to load it
10:07:22 <Terkhen> it will tell you that some files are missing
10:07:35 <Terkhen> and give you the option to check if those files are present in the online content
10:07:39 <norbert79> Terkhen: Oh, right.. Vry attractive method :)
10:07:56 <norbert79> but sure, it's easier that way, but other methods would be more welcome as well
10:08:09 * planetmaker sometimes does, peter1138
10:08:14 <peter1138> i remember darkvater didn't like the idea o_O
10:08:26 <planetmaker> but I'd like them to allow 'update to newest version'
10:08:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: Like in other games not only Bananas could be used for transferring GRF? :)
10:08:33 <peter1138> planetmaker, yeah, that's my gripe ;)
10:08:33 <norbert79> planetmaker: but through the server as well?
10:08:43 <Terkhen> norbert79: some NewGRF authors oppose to that
10:09:01 <planetmaker> that was not feasible to agree upon
10:09:06 <norbert79> Then they should not enable this for their servers
10:09:11 <Terkhen> how can we know if we are authorised to distribute their NewGRFs that way
10:09:35 <planetmaker> no, it's a copyright issue
10:09:40 <Terkhen> yes, it's a copyright issue
10:09:44 <norbert79> It would be just easier making an option: allow transfer of GRF's.. Yes or no
10:09:46 <peter1138> newgrf authors don't tend to host servers
10:09:46 <planetmaker> we must not distribute something we are not allowed to
10:09:56 <Terkhen> if someone says "this NewGRF cannot be distributed unless from my homepage"
10:10:03 <peter1138> other people host servers, and the newgrf authors have no control over that
10:10:04 <Terkhen> we are violating the license
10:10:05 <norbert79> it should be the responsibility of the hoster what he distributes or what he doesn't
10:10:19 <norbert79> And see, I am again let down on a very basic idea
10:10:31 <norbert79> getting it why the game has only limited attraction?
10:10:40 <Terkhen> because we respect copyright?
10:10:45 <planetmaker> yeah, we're a bunch of evils who barely thought about anything related to this game and just rebuff great ideas
10:10:52 <Terkhen> in this case, there is nothing we can do
10:10:57 <Terkhen> the author of the NewGRF decides
10:11:09 <Terkhen> that's why only the original author can upload stuff to bananas
10:11:24 <norbert79> Yeah, makes no sense. If he doesn't want one thing made redistributable, he dowsxn't release it in Banans
10:11:32 <norbert79> but this way noone will play his GRF, right?
10:11:43 <norbert79> and if one still has it on a server, one cannot joinm
10:11:48 <Terkhen> we can agree that such behavior makes no sense :)
10:11:51 <norbert79> so only a few elits are able to do so
10:11:54 <planetmaker> norbert79: except those 5 people who post a screenshot
10:12:02 <planetmaker> and then you come and complain that that newgrf is not found
10:12:09 <norbert79> lol.. Makes so much sense. Enable download makes the same
10:12:25 <Terkhen> norbert79: we would only be able to enable download if the authors authorised us to do that
10:12:26 <norbert79> In case for SWAT 4 if one doesn't want distribute maps, it disables the option. Problem solved
10:12:30 <Terkhen> and that's what bananas does
10:12:34 <norbert79> that makes no sense.
10:12:53 <norbert79> I will give up, thgis is leadiong nowehere, you don1t even take the time thinking this through..
10:12:56 <Terkhen> I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm saying that's how copyright works
10:13:17 <Lachie> are we secretly talking about mb?
10:13:27 <Rubidium> norbert79: having NewGRFs downloaded from the game server makes sense, but it's a gigantic legal/copyright bear trap which we want to avoid
10:13:34 <Terkhen> why should I think it through if I know for certain that some NewGRF authors would demand that their NewGRFs are not distributed this way and we have no way to know which ones we can distribute and which ones we can't¿
10:13:50 <Terkhen> it is not feasible, because of the way copyright and people work
10:14:00 <planetmaker> Terkhen: technically it's not our problem if *some* server distributes newgrfs
10:14:05 <planetmaker> it's the server's responsibility
10:14:07 <Rubidium> norbert79: especially, if we violate copyright of the NewGRFs then we have no way to claim that others breaking OpenTTD's copyright should stop doing so
10:14:12 <norbert79> Rubidium: Ok, very easy example: if one author doesn't want a GRF distributed but it stil got it distributed, why would OpenTTD devs care? It's the responsilbity of the hoster, not the developers...
10:14:30 <planetmaker> still, the online content could only be successful because we imposed this limit at that time
10:14:31 <Terkhen> you are using the master server to access that server
10:14:33 <norbert79> Rubidium: This is just being paranoid, not pre-cautious
10:14:34 <Rubidium> norbert79: remember Napster, the Pirate Bay and such?
10:14:50 <Terkhen> so we are the ones who facilitate distribution of content
10:14:51 <Rubidium> norbert79: they are taken down because they facilitate illegal downloading
10:15:13 <norbert79> Ok, I guess you missed a few years, because PB works well, and these are just not so good examples
10:15:26 <norbert79> it's more a question of who owns the repsonsibiltiy
10:15:34 <Terkhen> PB has been jumping from another country to another, and has been closed momentarily a few times already
10:15:45 * planetmaker goes back to rather *creating* online content
10:15:47 <norbert79> Terkhen: Still up and working, but lets put that aside
10:16:47 <norbert79> One thing is for sure: until you don't enable GRF transfer throiugh servers, the GRF issue will stay, and poeple won't get attracted by it...
10:16:59 <b_jonas> so wait, are there actually people that create GRFs but don't want to distribute it freely?
10:17:08 <planetmaker> norbert79: reality contradicts your statement
10:17:09 <norbert79> b_jonas: Yes... Makes sense, huh?
10:17:10 <b_jonas> are they waiting for Chris Sawyer to buy those GRFs for the next game?
10:17:26 <norbert79> planetmaker: 110 players for 220 servers... Are you sure?
10:17:43 <Terkhen> norbert79: the only feasible solution I can think for your problem is a filter in the multiplayer server list... "do not display servers that include NewGRFs from outside online content"
10:17:45 <planetmaker> norbert79: that's independent of newgrfs
10:17:58 <norbert79> planetmaker: You think...
10:18:13 <Rubidium> "Servers registered as on 2011-10-14 10:18:00 UTC. There are 114 clients, 194 IPv4 servers and 30 IPv6 servers.
10:18:15 <norbert79> Terkhen: That could be a solution. Not the best, maybe really something not preferable, but a solution.
10:18:26 <planetmaker> norbert79: no, I know the ratio of servers / players prior to introduction of online content, too
10:18:32 <Rubidium> 114 clients vs 224 servers
10:18:34 <b_jonas> as in, they want to limit their distribution? or they're just lazy to bundle it up in such a way that they're downloadable from online content?
10:18:40 <planetmaker> and the ratio of servers / newgrf-servers
10:19:00 <Lachie> could ofcourse introduce an Action 08 switch to define whether or not it can be transferred in that manner, but that would probably be going a very long way about it.
10:19:10 <Terkhen> the other solution is: "convince EVERY NewGRF author to change their mind and release their NewGRFs on bananas"
10:19:23 <planetmaker> not going to happen :-)
10:19:24 <norbert79> planetmaker: Take UT99 for example.. it has a few hundred servers but tousands online... Why? Because online content is spread through servers too. YOu connect, get what you need, you enjoy it.. Period. and if was something the creator didn't want to spread must blame the one whom he shared it with
10:19:34 <planetmaker> as I'll always have my private built of my newgrfs :-P
10:19:49 <norbert79> planetmaker: It's not UT99-s fault if someone was dumb enough spreading something...
10:19:59 <Terkhen> or "make changes to the NewGRF specs so everyone must agree to some terms such as allowing distribution" which would split the community
10:20:20 <norbert79> Plain option: allow GRF transfer through servers: On/Off... problem solved.
10:20:41 <b_jonas> I don't want to restrict GRF authors to release their GRFs freely, I'd just like to understand the motivation
10:20:43 <norbert79> The same way many mainstream games do as well
10:21:05 <Terkhen> norbert79: we allow distribution of content already... if someone wants to make their server private by including NewGRFs that are not on bananas, it's their loss
10:21:24 <norbert79> Terkhen: Why forcing Bananas? Why not allowing it as an additional option?
10:21:51 <norbert79> and cxopyright will stay still in force
10:21:51 <Terkhen> because some content authors would oppose to that way of distribution
10:22:03 <Terkhen> and their copyright explicitly says so
10:22:03 <norbert79> The turn of GRF distribution through servers
10:22:12 <norbert79> and rest will be still available through Bananas
10:22:23 <norbert79> problem solved again
10:22:30 <Terkhen> how can they turn off GRF distribution?
10:22:39 <norbert79> if they don't want get his stuff distriuted, they shall not send it to anyone as first step
10:22:46 <norbert79> it's like sharing private erotical photos
10:22:53 <norbert79> if you don't want to get them seen
10:22:54 <Rubidium> norbert79: there's a legal issue with that; those "mainstream" games did it from the start, so all content created for it knew of the "requirement" for redistributability. For OpenTTD there has not been such "requirement" and as such we can't (legally) force it on NewGRFs released way before OpenTTD distributing NewGRFs got implemented
10:23:14 <Terkhen> exactly, we would need to assume "all old NewGRFs are not distributable"
10:23:19 <norbert79> 220 vs 110 players... I am just saying...
10:23:22 <Terkhen> which would solve... nothing
10:23:25 <planetmaker> new action14 entry ;-)
10:23:36 <norbert79> yeah, could be done
10:23:37 <Terkhen> new NewGRFs are already on bananas usually
10:23:43 <Terkhen> and we can't fix the old ones
10:23:53 <norbert79> planetmaker: But making action14 work you must be able to distribute it through servers :)
10:23:54 <Lachie> planetmaker: what I meant when I was saying an Action08 switch :P
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10:24:11 <norbert79> planetmaker: and it still can be hacked ;-))
10:24:26 <planetmaker> Lachie: action8 can't be changed much. Action14 is better
10:24:40 <planetmaker> and targeted for such use
10:24:41 <Lachie> norbert79: if it's "hacked" that's out of the hands of the dev team anyway
10:25:15 <planetmaker> a hacked newgrf fortunately differs from the original one ;-)
10:28:38 <Lachie> I'll admit I've never even heard of Action14
10:28:53 <Terkhen> it's a recent addition
10:28:55 <Lachie> though, the last time I seriously coded was when TTDP was still undisputed champion.
10:28:58 <planetmaker> Lachie: you should read up on it :-)
10:29:08 <planetmaker> Very useful. And should be part of any new release really
10:29:30 <planetmaker> it adds those info which action8 cannot add ;-)
10:29:49 <planetmaker> like version, min_compatible_version, palette,...
10:30:08 <Lachie> so it's like an extension of an Action8?
10:30:09 <planetmaker> parameter descriptions
10:30:19 <Lachie> interesting, will have to look that up pronto
10:30:38 <planetmaker> it's a multi-purpose one actually. But most existing standard extensions target to provide additional info on the newgrf
10:30:44 <Terkhen> yes, parameter descriptions are awesome :)
10:30:58 <Terkhen> I wasn't able to start with NewGRFs until that
10:31:01 <planetmaker> newgrfs w/o action14 parameter descriptions kinda suck ;-)
10:31:40 <b_jonas> I mean, it's not only the terms of copying that are missing from binary grf dists: some of them say "see info about parameters in the README", but that README is not distributed with the binary
10:31:50 <Lachie> aggressive marketting there. haha.
10:31:57 <Lachie> planetmaker: already found it. reading up
10:32:03 <planetmaker> b_jonas: the readme is - or can be - distributed
10:32:10 <planetmaker> it's just nicely in the tar you got
10:32:22 <planetmaker> if the readme is NOT provided, then it's the fault of the author
10:32:38 <planetmaker> as s/he go the chance to add it to the thing bananas distributes
10:32:38 <b_jonas> planetmaker: I have checked the tar
10:32:45 <b_jonas> planetmaker: and yes, it is the fault of the author
10:33:09 <planetmaker> hm... colour depth :-)
10:33:44 <Terkhen> b_jonas: regarding our previous discussion, IMO a readme viewer and allowing to click on http links from inside OpenTTD would fix most of it :)
10:34:05 <planetmaker> the readme viewer would be highly welcome
10:34:08 <Terkhen> displaying parameters already fixed part of the issues
10:34:27 <planetmaker> it's 80% of the way. But not 100% ;-)
10:34:38 <planetmaker> but then there are always new destinations to reach
10:35:35 <b_jonas> Terkhen: yep, unless you also want to play ottd without net connectivity
10:35:55 <Lachie> oh derp, we're not even using version 6 anymore. awkward.
10:35:56 <b_jonas> in which case it's better to also distribute the html docs in the tarball too
10:36:18 <Terkhen> hmm... but the readme viewer would do more or less the same thing
10:37:10 <b_jonas> look, like I said, I would not like a readme viewer
10:37:10 <planetmaker> Lachie: version7 certainly is older than 3 years
10:37:18 <b_jonas> I'm a unix guy, I want ONE utility to do everything
10:37:22 <b_jonas> one editor, one html viewer
10:37:27 <b_jonas> and this one can be replaced by the user
10:37:38 <b_jonas> so ottd shouldn't impose a viewer on me
10:37:42 <b_jonas> it should be supplied by me
10:37:43 <planetmaker> hm... don't want unix guys one separate tool for every separate task?
10:37:47 <b_jonas> so opening in a browser is better
10:37:54 <planetmaker> k, mis-understood you, I guess :-)
10:37:54 <b_jonas> planetmaker: no, I want a few tools that do everything
10:38:08 <planetmaker> really? that's not unix-y
10:38:12 <b_jonas> planetmaker: a single editor that I customize and that I use to edit everything, including programs in any language or any configuration
10:38:27 <Lachie> planetmaker: see what I mean when I said it's been an age since I last took a serious look at this code.
10:38:28 <Terkhen> but the readme viewer wouldn't be an editor... it would be just a wall of text with a scrollbar
10:38:35 <b_jonas> I guess I'm quite unclear here
10:39:11 <planetmaker> b_jonas: unix is like all things like awk, less, vi, patch, ... all separate programmes
10:39:30 <planetmaker> anyway, besides the point here ;-)
10:40:13 <Terkhen> oh, I missed vi in your list... that does way more than a single thing :P
10:42:44 <planetmaker> yes. But I can't live without on *nix ;-)
10:43:02 <planetmaker> nor actually without it on osx ;-)
10:44:22 <Lachie> okay, is it just me or is the overall look of how an Action14 should be set out completely different than other actions. I'm seeing literal strings everywhere
10:47:16 <b_jonas> I find vim as my second choice of editor, for I can use it (even with its default settings) on any system if my first choice isn't yet installed. Vim is available almost everywhere luckily.
10:48:01 <b_jonas> Some parts of vim is a very good idea
10:48:07 <b_jonas> I should steal them to my config
10:48:14 <b_jonas> but some other parts are very distracting
10:49:10 <Terkhen> when I started with linux I found it confusing for me, a novice accustomed to windows, so I used gedit and nano instead
10:49:15 <Yexo> Lachie: it's a bit different, it uses DWORDS as labels. Depending on the value of a dword it can be nicely represented as string
10:50:13 <Yexo> and it was designed to be extensible while maintaining backwards compatibility
10:50:24 <Yexo> ehm, forward compatibility rather
10:53:54 <Lachie> ah. I'm just looking at it like, this is... different
10:54:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23028 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix: when using a gender choice list there was still a value popped twice from the newgrf textstack
10:55:43 <b_jonas> Terkhen: that much is true, the basics of emacs are easier to learn for someone accustomed to wordstar-like editors
10:57:24 <peter1138> what? no... vim... all the way
11:09:16 <norbert79> I am lazy, I prefer Gedit, but I too use vim when doing something special
11:09:39 <norbert79> or Notepad++ in Windows
11:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> using DWORDs as labels is common practice. just look at the GRFID
11:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... elegant or hacky? "__repr__ = lambda self: 'Tree(%r, %s)'%(self.value, ', '.join(map(repr, self.children)))"
11:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or one step further: __repr__ = lambda self: '%s(%r, %s)'%(self.__class__.__name__, self.value, ', '.join(map(repr, self.children)))
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11:21:00 <Lachie> random, stupid question. How does one count the amount of bytes when there are strings involved?
11:21:57 <planetmaker> as long as it's ascii: count the characters
11:22:11 <planetmaker> but newgrfs are better numbered by nforenum
11:22:19 <Lachie> yeah, just leave it for renum to do
11:27:08 <Lachie> interesting, my Action14 ridiculously broke the GRF. #LearningExperiences
11:27:45 <Yexo> in which way did it brake it?
11:28:11 <Yexo> openttd should ignore an invalid action14
11:28:24 <Lachie> I'm not even sure what it's done.
11:29:03 <Lachie> the first time I tried running ottd it came with an error before the game even loaded. Invalid GRF or something of the sort
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11:29:16 <Lachie> on subsequent openings of the game it's not even present
11:29:27 <Lachie> (the GRF in the NewGRF Settings dialogue, I mean)
11:29:35 <Yexo> start the game with "-d grf=5" and look at the console output
11:30:27 <planetmaker> Lachie: but nforenum did not complain about anything?
11:32:07 <Lachie> doesn't appear to have
11:32:26 <Lachie> linter failure on sprite 1.
11:32:43 <planetmaker> Lachie: care to just paste your code somewhere?
11:35:50 <Lachie> yeah, I'll just have a quick sniff around first to make sure I'm not embarrassing myself (more than likely)
11:42:04 <Lachie> eh, at this point I'm willing to brandish my stupidity to all. Give us a sec.
11:48:35 <planetmaker> instead of D and 8
11:49:32 <Lachie> I'm taking this is something to do with my charset?
11:50:03 <planetmaker> no. It's a literal letter. Not a hex :-)
11:50:07 <planetmaker> And you#re not an idiot
11:51:39 <Lachie> cheers, I'll give it a go now
11:55:36 <Lachie> alright. Loads in OpenTTD now, nforenum is still throwing up a linter failure on that sprite however?
11:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> misses a 00 at the end?
11:58:27 <Lachie> does it? looks fine to m?
11:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> one 00 for the action 14, one 00 for the INFO, one 00 for each entry
11:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, "B" entries don't get 00's
12:01:05 <Lachie> ah okay. It's working with them on there anyway.
12:02:37 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: i suggest adding a "Suitable for:" field identifying the intended role of locomotives, a la NARS2
12:02:53 <Yexo> Lachie: it doesn't "work just fine" with those 00s
12:03:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: yes. but i didn't look at newgrf supplied descriptions yet
12:03:23 <Yexo> what happens is that the 00 after the PALS line is read instead of the "B" on the second line for the type of the next one
12:03:39 <Yexo> since "type" is 0, that means the end of the current "C" block
12:03:49 <Elukka> hmm, should i work on sprites or physical models :P
12:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: did you make magic pink work or figure out a new way for wagon loads yet? <-- magic pink works. now we need to devise some appropriate recolour maps for black/grey/yellow/red/...
12:03:55 <Yexo> since that's the original (first) "C" block in this action, processing is stopped there
12:04:33 <Elukka> i'll go make a magic-pink loaded version of the open wagon then
12:04:58 <Elukka> hm. i think we'll need empty, half load, full load?
12:05:03 <Yexo> why are you using magic pink and not the company colours?
12:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: to avoid colours that might actually be used on the wagon
12:05:34 <Lachie> alright, pulled them out
12:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: recolouring is for cargo (coal, sand, grain, ore, ...)
12:06:39 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: right. If you still want to recolour both magic pink and company colours you'll have to create your own recolour sprites that incorporate both
12:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: do as many loading stages as you like
12:06:52 <Yexo> so num_magic_pink_recolours * num_company_colours sprites
12:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, that will be no problem to autogenerate :)
12:07:20 <Lachie> thank you for the help guys.
12:07:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: just another nested for loop :)
12:07:38 * Yexo imagines 1500 odd recolour sprites
12:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: GermanRV does that :)
12:08:21 <Yexo> if you go there you'll now find the opengfx source code a nice guide
12:08:35 <Yexo> it's not scripted in there, but that would be easy to do
12:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: for CETS i programmed maybe 500 LOCs, yet it contains 27000 sprites :)
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12:15:57 <peter1138> but there's a sprite limit of 16384!
12:16:23 <norbert79> hah, cheated then :)
12:17:30 <peter1138> Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation?
12:18:37 <planetmaker> peter1138: but... openttd loads that grf just fine (last time I checked)
12:22:09 <peter1138> are you that young? :)
12:22:27 <peter1138> i though everyone knew the sprite limit quote :(
12:22:54 <planetmaker> sorry, I didn't recognize it being a quote ;-)
12:23:27 <Yexo> I did, so it's nothing to do with the time of being here
12:24:41 <Yexo> it's actually _very_ old
12:27:36 <norbert79> "Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation?" Lol
12:29:41 <peter1138> i like the people replying that there's no sprite limit
12:29:47 <peter1138> when there blatantly was
12:30:15 <peter1138> but it's rather higher
12:30:40 <norbert79> that will be enough for a while :)
12:31:14 <peter1138> i left a byte for any miscellaneous flags that we might need
12:31:59 <peter1138> i think you'd probably run out memory before getting anywhere near that limit though
12:32:09 <planetmaker> it needs a few newgrfs to actually fill that ;-9
12:32:21 <norbert79> probably, but considering current memory use of current PC's :)
12:32:30 <peter1138> old limit was 2**14, with 2 bits for flags
12:32:44 <norbert79> planetmaker: Noone thought that every day PC's would need several gigabytes of RAM :)
12:32:56 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, 10-15 years ago
12:33:00 <Yexo> also note that that limit is only for real sprites. You can have as many pseudo sprites in grfs as you want
12:33:32 <Yexo> "real sprites" = graphics and also recolour sprites in this case
12:33:42 <Yexo> ttdpatch doesn't have a 2**24 limit either
12:33:53 <planetmaker> oh, no. recolour sprites count, too?
12:34:03 <planetmaker> @calc factorial(192)
12:34:03 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'factorial' is not a defined function.
12:34:05 <peter1138> yes, shocking isn't it
12:34:09 <planetmaker> @calc factor(192)
12:34:09 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'factor' is not a defined function.
12:34:14 <peter1138> and! the landscape sprites too!
12:34:20 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
12:34:22 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
12:34:36 <peter1138> planetmaker, what are you trying to work out there?
12:34:45 <DorpsGek> norbert79: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
12:34:50 <planetmaker> peter1138: amount of possible recolour sprites which make sense
12:35:08 <norbert79> that's why you guys use ** instead of regular ^
12:35:14 <peter1138> eh, well you can map any of the 256 values to any of the other 256 values
12:35:14 <Yexo> planetmaker: that would be 255!, not 192!
12:35:26 <Yexo> assuming you never remap color 0
12:35:28 <norbert79> glx: Python changes everything :P :)
12:35:55 <planetmaker> Yexo: I wanted to ignore the pink for now... but 192 or so was the number probably w/o any action colours
12:36:00 <peter1138> ^ doesn't mean power in C either
12:36:15 <Yexo> but pink is certainly valid, given that eddi is already using it (or will be soon) in cets
12:36:17 <norbert79> peter1138: but in regular calculators :)
12:36:35 <norbert79> peter1138: and many place elsewhere too
12:36:42 <Yexo> there are 12 pink colors in the dos palette
12:36:43 <planetmaker> I didn't quite understand why pink is used, though. But well :-)
12:37:06 <Yexo> they want to recolour the cargo, but don't want to use colors for the cargo that might be used for the actual wagons
12:37:09 <peter1138> because it's obvious
12:37:18 <Yexo> since that means they'd recolor parts of the wagon too
12:37:23 <norbert79> glx: Google is also using ^ ;-) :D I know... It's just I am used to ^ :)
12:37:34 <Yexo> norbert79: google understands both
12:37:43 <norbert79> Yexo: Let me see...
12:38:48 <norbert79> Pity Google can't do Algebra :)
12:39:32 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: how do you plan to layer the wagon and cargo sprites to a single sprite?
12:39:38 <planetmaker> wolfram alpha can
12:39:52 <norbert79> planetmaker: I heard about it, never got deep into it
12:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that's for the artists to figure out
12:41:07 <planetmaker> Yexo: I'd assume using a layered graphics file is relatively easy, isn't it?
12:41:38 <norbert79> planetmaker: Thanks for the tip, now I know which website to block from my son, so he makes his math on his own :DD
12:43:27 <planetmaker> it's easy to use really :-)
12:43:32 <norbert79> oh god, I hope my son never discovers it, unless he is finished with elementary school :)
12:43:39 <norbert79> planetmaker: Exactly, that's the problem :D
12:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically mathematica in your browser
12:45:40 <norbert79> planetmaker: Does it also details how to solve the equation, or just tells you the result only?
12:46:38 <norbert79> Pressed random, it gave "Japan military strength"
12:46:43 <norbert79> and it solved it :D
12:48:12 <planetmaker> it gives you steps for taking derivative or integrals
12:48:37 <norbert79> and it also can create specific things like a barcode... Cool
12:48:39 <planetmaker> with verbose explanation why the step is valid
12:49:07 <planetmaker> and click "show steps"
12:49:44 <norbert79> planetmaker: This site MUST be banned for my son, otherwise he will never do anything on his own :)
12:50:39 <Yexo> if he only used the site he'll simply fail his exams since he doesn't understand anything of it
12:50:45 <Yexo> I fail to see how banning the site helps
12:51:08 <norbert79> Yexo: Got children? :)
12:51:44 <norbert79> You will understand it then :)
12:52:00 <norbert79> trust me, some sites shall not be shown.. yet :)
12:52:18 <norbert79> it's like telling the end of a story right at the start :)
12:54:42 <Elukka> what a weird locomotive...
12:55:03 <norbert79> looks like a military train
12:55:14 <Elukka> it's not armored, it's streamlined
12:55:52 <Elukka> which also look way too modern for the 30's
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12:57:48 <Elukka> a moon rocket on rails
12:58:36 <norbert79> But the one train you showed from Wikipedia lookks also nice
12:58:53 <norbert79> Talking about the 30's, Baordwalk Empire Season 2 episode 1 was nice
12:59:19 <norbert79> but let's focus on these loco-motives :)
12:59:19 <Elukka> i don't get how the vehicle transporting the rocket works
12:59:30 <Elukka> it looks like it moves on two sets of rails
12:59:43 <Elukka> you can see the locomotives there
13:00:00 <norbert79> 1 wouldn't be able transporting it
13:00:13 <norbert79> I guess it's siimilar to when moving a house
13:00:54 <Elukka> shame the rocket never worked...
13:01:13 <norbert79> I feel pity for the Soviet Buran
13:01:28 <norbert79> where the Space Shuttle was successful, Buran never flew
13:01:36 <Elukka> i'm more sorry for the energia (buran's carrier rocket)
13:01:37 <norbert79> despite it had some better ideas
13:01:41 <Elukka> shuttles were always a bad idea
13:01:49 <norbert79> I am for the Buran :)
13:01:52 <Elukka> buran was just a better engineered bad idea
13:02:16 <norbert79> well, Buran or the Shuttle is still better, than rockets
13:02:20 <Elukka> sure, it flew well, but shuttles have serious cost and safety issues
13:02:24 <norbert79> it gives you much more possibilties
13:02:50 <norbert79> Without the Shuttle Hubble would be busted fast
13:03:16 <Elukka> because it was specifically built to be maintained by the shuttle
13:03:22 <Elukka> no reason a capsule couldn't do it were it designed so
13:03:42 <norbert79> like having no arms to hold things? :)
13:04:00 <Elukka> it could dock into it were a docking port provided
13:04:04 <norbert79> Ok, the method what 2001 Space Odessay had could be a solution
13:04:22 <norbert79> I liked the Pod idea
13:04:56 <norbert79> And what do you think about the last Enterprise?
13:05:17 <Elukka> the only reason the buran was built was because some soviet higher ups who knew nothing about spacecraft thought the american shuttle could be some kind of nuclear bomber and wanted a vehicle with similar capabilities made
13:05:30 <Elukka> now the rocket engineers knew how ludicrous that was, and likely also knew that a shuttle wasn't such a great idea
13:05:40 <Elukka> so they built the carrier rocket so that it didn't have to fly with buran
13:05:44 <Elukka> it could loft any payload
13:05:49 <norbert79> Elukka: The Buran's plans were started where the cold war was pretty intensse
13:06:24 <norbert79> well, the soviet planes have never been designed for high end, but for reliability, they always solved such issues having much stronger engines
13:06:32 <norbert79> Take a look at Su-27 for example
13:06:43 <Elukka> what's that got to do with anything?
13:06:53 <norbert79> the similar idea was used for the Buran too
13:07:05 <norbert79> it's a bit heavier, who cares, lets put a bigger rocket below it
13:07:22 <Elukka> the buran didn't even carry engines besides small maneuvering thrusters, though
13:07:31 <Elukka> and the carrier rocket used more efficient liquid rockets in comparison to the american one
13:07:45 <norbert79> See? Still better then :D
13:07:56 <norbert79> Anyway, what do you think about recent Enterprise?
13:08:18 <Elukka> well it's not a spacecraft
13:08:21 <Elukka> it's a high altitude airplane
13:08:38 <norbert79> Well, the U-2 was same, yet very close to the top
13:08:46 <Elukka> not anywhere close to orbit
13:08:53 <Elukka> either U-2 or anything virgin does
13:09:10 <Elukka> the main problem with reaching orbit isn't altitude, it's comparatively easy to do that
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13:09:21 <norbert79> Elukka: Sure, but the first Enterprise Shuttle didn't leave to the orbit neither :)
13:09:23 <Elukka> the real challenge is gaining the required 8 km/s velocity
13:10:08 <Elukka> but the shuttle was always designed to be an orbital vehicle..
13:10:13 <norbert79> Elukka: I know, but still it would be nice if they still could manage it
13:10:18 <Elukka> yeah but they won't :P
13:10:26 <Elukka> it's not what they're trying to do currently
13:10:41 <norbert79> well, something must replace the shuttles...
13:10:52 <norbert79> rockets are nice, but a 50 years old technology
13:10:57 <norbert79> and very limited use
13:11:02 <Elukka> here's the replacement
13:11:19 <Elukka> spaceplanes are not inherently better or more advanced, they just look prettier
13:11:21 <norbert79> back to the roots...
13:11:25 <Elukka> in all our experience so far they're worse
13:12:15 <norbert79> Guess Elite 2 style of spaceflying is still just a dream, and will stay so for the next 50 years then
13:12:25 <Elukka> and if virgin were to try orbital spaceflight, they'd have to design a whole new vehicle from scratch
13:12:31 <Elukka> anything they've done so far is simply not built for it
13:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> which also look way too modern for the 30's <-- streamlining was "in" in the late 30's
13:13:05 <Elukka> yes, norbert, but not because of rockets
13:14:06 <norbert79> Well, if we look at this this way, the US still using the same old thinking, like what they gathered after 1945... It's like getting stuck with the same idea :)
13:14:12 <Elukka> the shuttle was not a revolutionary advancement in spaceflight, it was a sidestep to a nasty, murky bog
13:14:22 <Elukka> in which nasa has been stuck for the past three decades
13:14:23 <norbert79> Falcon 9 is not reusable neither, the space shuttles were at least
13:14:44 <norbert79> not that they would have done that way, but money was only spent for that only
13:14:47 <Elukka> falcon 9 is designed to be fully reusable
13:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: the "reusable" parts of a shuttle are like 15-20%
13:15:14 <Elukka> well the shuttle does reuse the orbiter itself and the solid booster casings
13:15:26 <norbert79> Elukka: Well, according to the page you shared it shows totally the opposite
13:15:29 <Elukka> this is where we realize that reusability isn't necessarily cheaper than building new components...
13:15:57 <Elukka> the current version of falcon 9 is not reusable, but the vehicle is designed with reusability in mind and they're working on that
13:16:12 <Terkhen> designed for future features :)
13:16:25 <norbert79> Sounds like Windows Vista :))
13:16:35 <Elukka> it's also easier to make a two stage rocket reusable than it is to make a spaceplane reusable
13:17:07 <Elukka> because the bulk of the rocket consists of the first stage, and it never reaches orbital speed or altitude
13:17:14 <Elukka> so it experiences much milder reentry heating
13:17:17 <norbert79> I think the focus should be on new engines... Rockets is way more the sidestep for me, than the shuttles...
13:17:40 <norbert79> and yes, reentry is a huge problem
13:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: shuttles did not reach the intended 90 starts per year, so they were a failure
13:18:07 <Elukka> there are basically two kinds of new engines that are possible
13:18:16 <Elukka> airbreathing engines, which are of questionable use... most likely not worth it
13:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (that'd be twice a week)
13:18:20 <Elukka> and nuclear engines which have their own issues
13:18:31 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: 90 was never really possible in my opinion, I don't know how has set that stupid limit
13:19:12 <Elukka> what's wrong with rocket engines, anyhow?
13:19:33 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: well if you want any sensible commercial activity, it must come to such high frequencies eventually
13:19:34 <Terkhen> we should build a space elevator
13:19:49 <Elukka> that's like saying "bullets are outdated"
13:19:57 <norbert79> Terkhen: Yeah, have seen those ideas... And against what would you fix that? Against the moon? :))
13:20:06 <norbert79> Elukka: Apples against grapes :)
13:20:06 <Terkhen> they are, I want my lasers and floating cars
13:20:14 <Elukka> but they're not outdated
13:20:33 <Terkhen> norbert79: a counter weight IIRC
13:20:47 <Elukka> here's spacex's eventual plan for the falcon 9
13:20:49 <dihedral> can you not use fruit that does not highlight me?
13:20:54 <norbert79> Using rockets for space-exploration mission is just a way saying: sorry, we failed to imporve what we could gather from the Germans in 1945
13:21:11 <Elukka> sorry but that's just wrong
13:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: obviously the end of the space elevator needs to be a point in geostationary orbit
13:21:54 <Elukka> rockets work, they are simple, they have the capability of being cheap if enough are being built and launched
13:21:56 <Elukka> what's wrong with them?
13:22:05 <Terkhen> they are not cool anymore
13:22:08 <norbert79> reusability, flexiblity
13:22:16 <Elukka> they can be made reusable
13:22:18 <Terkhen> and they are expensive :P
13:22:38 <Elukka> indeed they are easier to make reusable than a shuttle
13:22:46 <Elukka> not sure what you mean by flexibility
13:23:22 <norbert79> Basically you have no control on the reentry, almost nothing, shuttles could at least fly like airplanes
13:24:15 <Elukka> why's that particularly important?
13:24:27 <Elukka> it's perfectly possible to precision land on a small pad with a capsule
13:24:31 <norbert79> well, it sucks landing in the ocean, if something occurs :)
13:24:57 <Elukka> soyuz has been landing on land for the past four decades
13:24:57 <norbert79> not possible to make corrective maneuvers
13:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not much ocean in kasachstan :p
13:25:26 <norbert79> I think I am really familiar with russian space exploration, we had to learn them in elementary school back then :)
13:25:32 <Elukka> and just to illustrate how wasteful the shuttle is...
13:25:41 <Elukka> the shuttle stack could either launch 20 tonnes of payload and a shuttle
13:25:46 <Elukka> or it could just launch 100 tonnes of payload
13:25:50 <Elukka> the former is also more costly
13:26:16 <norbert79> ok, how much can a rocket launch with crew? :)
13:26:34 <Elukka> depends on how large you want to make the rocket
13:26:41 <Elukka> soyuz launches 3 people, spacex dragon launches 7
13:27:03 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of 'launches'
13:27:12 <norbert79> see? So it's basically much more expensive, since you have to design the rocket based on the payload, and not the opposite
13:27:32 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 39 weeks, 0 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Celestar> hahah
13:27:34 <Elukka> you have to design a spaceplane based on the payloads it will fly just the same
13:27:41 <planetmaker> you can buy it. But you'll not get a 100% promise of delivery ;-)
13:28:26 <Elukka> also, a falcon 9 with dragon costs about $60 million to launch
13:28:31 <planetmaker> norbert79: rockets are not designed 'based on payload' in a more detailed level than cars 'designed based on payload'
13:28:31 <Elukka> a space shuttle... perhaps $750 million
13:28:55 <Elukka> amusingly falcon 9 cost less to design from scratch than a shuttle costs to launch once
13:29:14 <norbert79> Elukka: I would also count the design, acceptence costs and administartive costs to that, it will sure end up much more, than 60 :)
13:29:30 <Elukka> you could go ahead and make a contract with them for that price
13:29:37 <Elukka> and it would actually be launched
13:30:11 <Elukka> they publish prices for customers on their website
13:30:42 <norbert79> Yes, the plain launch cost
13:30:45 <Elukka> of course that includes profits, so the actual costs are less than that
13:30:48 <norbert79> not the other costs included
13:30:55 <planetmaker> which other, norbert79?
13:31:09 <norbert79> if a payload needs the modification of the rocket for example
13:31:12 <Elukka> um, that has all costs and profit for the company included
13:31:27 <Elukka> "Custom fairings are available at incremental cost."
13:31:27 <peter1138> anyone good with mobile phones?
13:31:30 <planetmaker> norbert79: you won't simply get that
13:31:56 <planetmaker> and a custom-car also costs custom amounts of money.
13:31:59 <planetmaker> I see no issue there
13:32:13 <norbert79> you never do with anything normally :P
13:32:14 <planetmaker> as basically all satellites can be launched by off-the-shelf rockets
13:32:16 <Elukka> it's not that a specific payload needs a different rocket
13:32:30 <Elukka> this is basically the same that a car is designed for a max payload of 5 people
13:32:46 <norbert79> Elukka: One example: goverment sats
13:33:04 <Elukka> what special modification would they require?
13:33:05 <norbert79> that needs additional costs and admin work
13:33:11 <norbert79> No idea, I have never worked for them :)
13:33:19 <norbert79> but considering how such work
13:33:24 <norbert79> I can imagine lots of things
13:33:36 <Elukka> um. they provide launch services and rockets, they don't build the satellites
13:33:38 <Elukka> that's up to the customer
13:33:57 <planetmaker> yeah. They're nothing special. Just another satellite
13:33:57 <norbert79> sure, but that comes with the final expenses
13:34:08 <planetmaker> norbert79: that's not transport costs
13:34:16 * Belugas is good at dialing wth mobile phone, peter1138. as well as listening to music, but that's pretty much it ;)
13:34:33 <planetmaker> hehe @ Belugas and also hello @ Belugas
13:34:37 <Belugas> speaking of music... time to load JudasPriest
13:34:47 <Belugas> hello sir planetmaker :)
13:35:29 <Elukka> i'm still not sure how these mysterious extra costs apply to rockets but not spaceplanes
13:35:33 <planetmaker> norbert79: you can simply face it: but rockets are not build specifically for a payload but the other way around
13:35:38 <Elukka> a spaceplane is simply a rocket with wings, landing gear and other unneeded crap :P
13:36:25 <Elukka> yeah rockets are simply built to loft a certain amount of mass into orbit
13:36:29 <norbert79> planetmaker: With not much of use really
13:36:37 <Elukka> the rocket doesn't care if that mass is a weather satellite, a top secret spy sat, or a bunch of astronauts
13:37:05 <planetmaker> norbert79: you've never filled out any spec requirement forms for rocket lifts, did you?
13:37:13 <planetmaker> and spec conformance filesß
13:37:43 <norbert79> planetmaker: Tell me just one thing rockets can do, for which Space Shuttles were not capable of...
13:37:55 <Elukka> and if your payload masses too much, you buy a bigger rocket
13:37:57 <planetmaker> a space shuttle is just a rocket...
13:38:11 <planetmaker> basically the space shuttle was payload for a rocket
13:38:18 <planetmaker> it only happend to be a quite powerful 3rd stage
13:38:20 <Elukka> that itself carries a smaller payload
13:38:28 <peter1138> xperia mini pro looks quite nice but apparently the battery only lasts a day, if you're lucky
13:38:29 <norbert79> So was the Me-163 too, still was used as a fighter
13:38:47 <planetmaker> norbert79: the space shuttle had about the aerodynamics of a brick!
13:38:48 <Elukka> norbert: tell me one significant thing shuttles can do that rockets can't
13:39:02 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I wish my brick would fly that smooth :)
13:39:18 <norbert79> Elukka: In space maintenance, and repair
13:39:34 <Elukka> the russians have been happily assembling space station sections in space without any shuttles
13:39:43 <Elukka> and maintaining that station too
13:39:48 <planetmaker> sojus do that happily longer than the space shuttle exists
13:40:08 <norbert79> Elukka: I wouldn't really compare the ISS with the MIR (RIP)
13:40:30 <Elukka> did you know the core modules of the ISS were launched with russian proton rockets?
13:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: what's the difference between ISS and MIR?
13:41:04 <norbert79> Elukka: Well, if you will come aware of any missions, which would involve in-sapce maintenance of something in space and not on ISS using rockets, tell me
13:41:14 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: ISS has been partially assembled and supplied by soyus capsules as well
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13:41:52 <Elukka> well it's the progress freighters (which are a variant of soyuz) that supply it and proton rockets that build it
13:42:30 <Pinkbeast> For some reason this is all reminding me of the OTTD+500 nut
13:42:41 <Elukka> norbert: there currently isn't anything in space besides the ISS that needs or is built for maintenance
13:42:50 <Elukka> oh, sorry, there's tiangong now
13:43:55 <planetmaker> hm, is there already hayabusa2?
13:44:42 <Elukka> the shuttle is funny in that it's really built upside down
13:44:58 <Elukka> it carries a massively bloated reusable upper stage that uses up 75% of the vehicle's payload
13:45:11 <Elukka> while normally upper stages are light and cheap
13:45:20 <Elukka> it'd really make sense to make a reusable first stage than an upper stage
13:45:28 <Pinkbeast> Also it's a bit twisted by the requirements of the Cold War...
13:46:00 <Elukka> built to do everything, does everything... at a humongous cost
13:46:01 <norbert79> Elukka: Makes sense, but you forget, that all, what must be used in space must stay with on top.. No wonmder on the 75% then
13:46:23 <Elukka> what's used in space is generally called 'the payload'
13:50:16 <norbert79> Yet this fact still doesn't make rockets more advanced for me...
13:51:24 <norbert79> If you want to do more, you will need something like the Saturn 5 :)
13:54:58 <Elukka> something of its size, yes
13:55:29 <Elukka> it'd be convenient though not absolutely necessary for space station building, lunar and mars missions, stuff like that
13:55:44 <planetmaker> you need an elevator ;-)
13:56:00 <Elukka> i'm not that convinced elevators are a plausible near term solution
13:56:01 <planetmaker> it's less 'lol' than one might think
13:56:16 <planetmaker> but not near-term indeed
13:56:24 <Elukka> there's also non obvious issues when one falls down to earth
13:56:27 <planetmaker> it misses about a factor of 10 in tensile strength
13:56:34 <norbert79> Elukka: Just wanted to mention
13:56:43 <Elukka> it'll break down in the atmosphere... and now you have potentially very harmful carbon nanotube dust in everyone's lungs
13:56:48 <norbert79> Elukka: I wouldn't be happy having one huge piece of metal in my room
13:57:42 <planetmaker> you didn't read the novel 'foundations of paradise'?
13:57:45 <Terkhen> only 10? I thought it was at least 100 or 1000 :)
13:58:22 <Elukka> i think some reasonable study ended with the conclusion that space elevators used on the scale of the space launch market today would end up with similar costs as rockets currently
13:58:27 <Elukka> in terms of $/kg to orbit
13:58:31 <planetmaker> iirc you can currently get near the factor of 10
13:58:44 <peter1138> let's remove 32bpp support
13:58:55 <peter1138> nobody uses it, it's just cruft that bloats ottd
13:58:55 <Pinkbeast> If you're lucky it'll break down in the atmosphere, if not it wraps itself around the Equator like a very strongly worded note from the Grim Reaper "to whom it may concern"
13:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause> are there actual studies on what forces are put onto a space elevator located on the equator?
13:59:34 <Elukka> it's not really a concern that it'd wrap around the earth and physically break things
13:59:38 <Elukka> it'd break up into a fine dust on reentry
13:59:47 <Terkhen> peter1138: maybe that's what is needed to get a reaction from the people that use it :P
13:59:48 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> Depends (obviously) on what it is made of.
14:00:04 <Elukka> well carbon nanotubes would do that, and they're pretty much the strongest theoretical substance and the only one that would work
14:00:24 <Pinkbeast> Eddi> Yes, that's a simple sum if you know the strength/mass ratio and desired safety margin
14:00:46 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: sure, those exist
14:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: i don't think "simple sum" quite cuts it
14:01:07 <peter1138> although those osx users...
14:01:25 <Terkhen> yeah, it worked back then, let's do the same for 32bpp
14:02:53 <Terkhen> I read about space elevators first on an ancient physics book
14:03:11 <Terkhen> it even says "printed in the soviet union, 197?" or something like that
14:03:25 <Pinkbeast> I was reading some early Charles Sheffield SF about them which is very odd these days because he has to start each book by expositing what one is.
14:10:43 <Korenn> hm. I've got egrvts 1.4 on trunk, but I have no road vehicles available...
14:12:43 <Korenn> I guess it might be clashing with another grf. I'll try turning some off
14:13:11 <Terkhen> let's make a space elevator NewGRF
14:14:18 <Korenn> it may be an ancient version, by accident
14:15:52 <Korenn> it was grvts instead of eGRVTS
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14:21:25 <Korenn> bah, now it's av8 that's refusing to work
14:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what i imagine to be a big problem, besides holding the structure in place, is the power generated by lowering the cabin, which would normally be the reentry heat.
14:22:54 <planetmaker> Korenn: the author thinks that you need to set a parameter when you use the default 'enable multiple engine sets'
14:23:10 <Elukka> it need not have much reentry heating
14:23:38 <Elukka> it does go down slow, but it still has huge lateral velocity..
14:24:12 <Elukka> i wager it's manageable, just takes more mass
14:24:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: normally the lateral velocity increases on descent, but the cable will prevent that, issuing large lateral force on the cable
14:24:40 <Korenn> planetmaker: ah, so it's my stupidity. that figures! :)
14:25:01 <Elukka> the galileo probe survived a 250 g deceleration on jupiter reentry, intact
14:25:04 <planetmaker> not yours. IMHO requiring that parameter is stupid.
14:25:12 <planetmaker> it should work with and without that adv. setting
14:25:27 <Elukka> i think space elevators are probably more useful on planets/moons smaller than earth
14:25:35 <planetmaker> I doubt there are any by that time, Korenn ;-)
14:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 1900-ish could be some early zeppelins
14:27:03 <Korenn> no, first one is 1911, apparently
14:27:32 <Elukka> i wish we'd still build zeppelins in real life
14:27:38 <Elukka> not sure of practical use, but dammit they're cool
14:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause> google for cargo lifter
14:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but that kinda monstrously failed :p
14:29:48 <Korenn> and promotional blimps, ofcourse
14:30:15 <Eddi|zuHause> blimps are no zeppelins
14:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> blimps are zeppelin-shaped balloons
14:33:18 <Elukka> yeah i mean good old fashioned huge explodey zeppelins
14:33:21 <Elukka> without the explosions
14:34:03 <Korenn> problem is that with helium the lift is just too low
14:34:24 <Korenn> needs hydrogen to get the proper lift to carry stuff.
14:34:29 <Terkhen> use them in an atmosphere without oxygen
14:35:16 <Elukka> they would work marvelously on venus :P
14:35:27 <Elukka> my guess is hydrogen could be manageable today
14:35:41 <Eddi|zuHause> in sulphuric acid atmosphere? :p
14:36:09 <Terkhen> the upper capes of the atmosphere don't have sulphuric acid IIRC
14:36:20 <Elukka> even just normal air is a potent lifting gas there
14:36:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: earth's atmosphere is mostly just N2...
14:36:58 <Elukka> well wiki says venus' is 96.5% co2 and 3.5% nitrogen
14:37:10 <Elukka> with other trace gases, of course
14:37:39 <Elukka> venus has a layer with a nice temperature and a nice atmospheric pressure
14:37:41 <Elukka> and air is a lifting gas
14:37:45 <Elukka> are you thinking what i'm thinking?
14:37:52 <Elukka> (i am thinking cloud city)
14:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but how are we going to get the flamingos green'?
14:38:35 <Terkhen> I read about cloud cities in venus in a futuristic RPG setting already :P
14:39:01 <Elukka> i think it's geoffrey landis who came up with the idea
14:39:04 <Elukka> or at least refined it
14:39:41 <Elukka> also, while the gas giants are wholly inconvenient places to live on (in?)
14:39:50 <Elukka> i discovered that parts of saturn are surprisingly non-terrible
14:40:26 <Elukka> if you go down a few hundred kilometers you'll get 20 c temperatures, a... well, not a nice atmospheric pressure, but less than what submarines have to endure
14:40:30 <Elukka> and the gravity is very near 1 g
14:40:37 <APTX> during some weekend trip?
14:41:16 <Elukka> it's not at all an useful place, unless you're mining helium-3
14:42:41 <Korenn> Elukka: you mean Lando? :P
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14:44:21 <Elukka> i drew that once, based on some NASA design for he-3 harvesters
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15:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: gravity is fairly irrelevant if you're not on a solid surface
15:07:43 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're in an orbit, you are weightless, no matter what gravity
15:08:16 <planetmaker> mind the gravity gradient
15:09:50 <Korenn> Eddi|zuHause: wut? by that logic, you'd stay in the air if you jump
15:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Korenn: what makes you think jumping up makes you enter an orbit?
15:10:44 <Korenn> Oh, orbit. But he wasn't talking about orbits
15:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well... i don't know any sensible way to float in a He-3 atmosphere, so the only other option would be aerodynamics, which i have trouble imagining
15:23:40 <Elukka> there are asteroids where you could reach orbit by jumping :P
15:24:09 <Elukka> it's still much easier to build a space elevator for a smaller body
15:24:14 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: depends on the density of the He-3, though I'd imagine a vacuum would do the trick ;)
15:24:15 <Elukka> less gravity, shorter, much less tensile strength required
15:24:32 <Elukka> oh we weren't talking about space elevators anymore
15:25:49 <Elukka> in a gas giant's atmosphere gravity is very relevant cause you're not on orbit
15:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> might it be possible to teach towns to build houses adjacent to bridge heads, like they would on normal roads?
16:08:03 <Terkhen> IIRC they check for MP_ROAD
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16:14:21 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: don't towns typically build bridges over water, so the square adjacent to bridge head is usually a coast square?
16:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: towns build houses on coast squares
16:16:28 <b_jonas> could I abuse that? towns seem so permissive about removing houses (as opposed to about building stations) that it could be cheaper to destroy such a house than to destroy a coast square
16:17:00 <b_jonas> apparently it's not _clearing_ a coast square that's expensive
16:17:04 <b_jonas> but building the terrace
16:17:24 <b_jonas> and I don't think I can reuse the terrace a town has built
16:37:27 <Terkhen> b_jonas: now towns also build bridges over rivers/canals
16:39:11 <b_jonas> but they don't build bridges over, say, diagonal railway tracks, right?
16:39:15 <b_jonas> that's my responsibility
16:40:49 <planetmaker> I guess they don't. Indeed
16:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but even next to manual bridges, they should build houses
16:51:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23029 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp): -Fix: [NewGRF] support for cases in strings was broken
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17:29:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
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18:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "if (DistanceFromEdge(tile) == 0) return false;" <-- wouldn't it be easier to check for MP_VOID?
18:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> (or am i reading this check wrong?)
18:07:37 <planetmaker> void tiles are not on all borders
18:07:46 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
18:10:07 <SmatZ> at least with "build at map edges" patch disabled
18:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but on those other borders there are water tiles
18:10:30 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: there can be buoy or oil rig tiles as well
18:10:37 <SmatZ> (if that matters in that case)
18:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> this is town growth code, and i assume it will bail out way before that
18:15:38 <Alberth> you can have land at the borders too
18:15:57 * andythenorth has had less ttd time recently
18:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: no, that has certainly never been possible
18:17:40 <Alberth> sure? you can generate a map without water, and void tiles are not at all borders (as pm already said)
18:18:19 <Rubidium> Alberth: either there is MP_VOID or there is MP_WATER at x = 0 or y = 0
18:18:36 <Rubidium> at the southern edge it is always MP_VOID
18:18:51 <Rubidium> (where I said MP_WATER I might mean "watery tile")
18:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: when land map edges are allowed, there is an additional row of void tiles
18:20:18 <Alberth> that will need to be the case, otherwise the statement by rb fails :)
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18:21:42 <Alberth> although I have so far failed to understand why this difficult construct, just void tiles around all edges surely would be easier
18:22:06 <Rubidium> Alberth: hysterical raisins
18:22:52 <Alberth> as in, the original game did do it this way? wow
18:23:07 <Rubidium> it had water at the edges, which is always at level 0
18:23:21 <Rubidium> and the void at the bottom is so the water tiles can determine their slope easily
18:23:22 <SmatZ> it just wrapped around from 0 to 255, where it found MP_VOID :)
18:23:58 <Alberth> and void tiles prevented ships getting routed from one edge to the opposite one :)
18:23:59 <andythenorth> more FIRS translations
18:24:01 <frosch123> though i wonder whether it also wrapped around from 0 to 65535 to find void
18:24:07 <frosch123> evening everyone :)
18:24:09 <Rubidium> as it needs the tile at +(0,1) +(1,0) and +(1,1) to determine the slope
18:32:00 <andythenorth> time for more boats?
18:36:28 <Eddi|zuHause> 19th century sailboats!
18:37:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't get the town growth code...
18:39:12 <Terkhen> it is a huge mess IIRC :P
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18:48:19 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie
18:51:53 * Rubidium pokes dihedral with FS#4796, FS#4803 and FS#4804. I hope it doesn't hurt too much ;)
19:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> how annoying would it be to have DorpsGek react on every "FS#xyz" with the appropriate link?
19:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yeah, that kinda defeats the point :p
19:02:21 <frosch123> hmm, it appends it at the end :o
19:02:32 <planetmaker> the pointy stick gets sharper, eh? :-)
19:03:03 <frosch123> it just puts the http stuff to the front :p
19:03:17 <frosch123> i hoped it would do something smart :p
19:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yay for input validation :p
19:06:30 <frosch123> hmm, he does not talking with himself :p
19:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> scripts like that usually don't work on outgoing text
19:07:16 <frosch123> also might be bad when using the command to talk :p
19:19:11 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie
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19:23:17 * andythenorth is watching British train videos
19:23:25 <andythenorth> british trains are so crappy
19:25:07 <supermop_> 125s are amazing pieces of product design
19:25:48 <supermop_> also partial to 158s but I know I won't find too many confederates there
19:29:00 <supermop_> yeah pentagram is sweet
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19:37:46 <supermop_> platner was also part of that i think
19:38:04 <supermop_> good 20th C british design
19:43:27 * andythenorth needs to nom nom something
19:45:35 <supermop_> english cheese is the best cheese, and yarg is the best english cheese
20:03:02 *** Biolunar_ has joined #openttd
20:09:10 <supermop_> i wonder why more prolific industrial designers have not taken up train design
20:09:31 <supermop_> i would like to see a naoto fukusawa shinkansen
20:14:41 <Lachie> supermop_: being good at one doesn't necessarily mean being good at another, really. Both can be damned hard if you're only used to the other
20:19:37 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
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21:08:07 <andythenorth> sometimes it's quiet
21:08:14 <andythenorth> sometimes that means stuff is being worked on
21:09:10 *** Phoenix_the_II has joined #openttd
21:13:04 <V453000> sometimes it means it is friday pub night :P
21:17:58 <andythenorth> the design of small sea-going coasters didn't change much since the 1900s
21:18:01 <andythenorth> less to draw for me :P
21:20:44 <V453000> what is a sea-going coaster?
21:20:49 <V453000> I guess some ship, but .. :)
21:21:38 <andythenorth> it's a small ship that goes to sea...near the coast :)
21:21:50 <andythenorth> might be an oxymoron :)
21:23:49 * andythenorth is plotting to fix the 'FISH has all ships same since 1870'
21:23:53 <andythenorth> good night planetmaker
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22:04:15 <uktab> Can anybody help me find a 'missing' graphics set please. I downloaded openttd and copied files to the data folder (I have Linux mint) but when I type openttd it says 'Failed to find a graphics set' :(
22:04:42 <frosch123> it might be in your package manager
22:05:09 <frosch123> what files did you copy to which data folder?
22:05:12 <uktab> Ah ha - I dl'd all the 'open' packages but mite have forgot to install them... duh!
22:06:09 <uktab> I got Opengfx-0.3.7 and openmsx-0.3.1-source then opensfx-0.2.3-source
22:06:28 <uktab> All that's inside are grf fis etc.
22:06:44 <frosch123> do you want to build from source?
22:07:09 <frosch123> but you said you downloaded the source
22:07:43 <uktab> The files I was told to download had the words 'source' in them ?
22:09:10 <frosch123> anyway, you need some ogfx*.grf and openttd.obg
22:09:19 <frosch123> put them in ~/.openttd/data
22:09:48 <frosch123> s/openttd.obg/sopengfx.obg/
22:10:24 <uktab> There were .grf files in the opengfx folder which I copied to that data folder
22:11:10 <frosch123> next put the .cat and .obs of opensfx also in that folder
22:11:22 <frosch123> then start openttd --help and expect it to list the base sets
22:12:39 <uktab> Ok - In the data folder are lots of ogfx*.grf files but in the original folder I got themfrom there is no *.cat file
22:13:00 <frosch123> .cat is opensfx, not gfx
22:13:29 <uktab> I copied everything from all 3 folders to the data folder, but no cat file
22:13:36 <frosch123> opensfx.cat and opensfx.obs
22:13:50 <frosch123> well, you said above that you downloaded the source of opensfx
22:13:54 <frosch123> download the real thing
22:14:23 <uktab> Thanks - didn't realise there were more than 1 version. Only started using linux yesterday.
22:15:16 <Yexo> ultimately it's the same file though
22:15:53 <frosch123> yeah, i never remember what is hosted where :)
22:16:07 <frosch123> after all you only need to install it manually once
22:16:23 <frosch123> updates are easier :)
22:16:27 <Yexo> openttd has mirrors of all basesets
22:16:49 <uktab> Thanx for being patient. I used to use DOS so Linux looks familiar, except the commands are new to me
22:17:40 <uktab> I got the zip thanx. Shall I extract it straight to the data folder?
22:18:20 <Yexo> it's easiest to ignore it completely, just make sure you have opengfx
22:18:30 <Yexo> than you should be able to start the game and download the other ones in there
22:18:51 <Yexo> if you want to install it manually: opensfx goes in the data folder, openmsx in the gm/ folder
22:19:13 <frosch123> you need to install opensfx manually
22:19:21 <frosch123> msx can be downloaded ingame
22:19:30 <frosch123> or do we bundle nosounds?
22:19:32 <Yexo> isn't nosound bundled with openttd?
22:19:44 <frosch123> not that i am aware of :s
22:19:48 <uktab> It says I don't have permission to extract archives in the folder :(
22:20:10 <Yexo> which folder are you trying to extract it in?
22:20:19 <Yexo> no_sound.obs in the the repo
22:20:30 <Yexo> gm is for openmsx, but where is that?
22:20:41 <Yexo> should be ~/.openttd/gm/
22:21:04 <frosch123> allright, if nosound.obs is bundled... uktab: you should be able to start ottd now
22:21:21 <frosch123> if opengfx is installed you can get the rest easier in game
22:22:31 <uktab> You said to download opensfx? I need to download opengfx now?
22:23:47 <frosch123> when you copied those grf and the obg you installed opengfx
22:24:00 <frosch123> you can get opensfx and openmsx also ingame
22:24:09 <frosch123> try "openttd" now :)
22:24:52 <uktab> failed to find a graphics set. See section 4.1 of readme.txt
22:25:15 <uktab> will re-download opngfx from bundles site
22:25:44 <frosch123> what version of openttd did you download btw?
22:26:28 <uktab> 1.1.3-inux-ubuntu-natty-i386.deb
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22:26:41 <uktab> closest to Mint I could finf
22:26:59 <frosch123> ok, well, then it should work...
22:27:16 <uktab> I'll get the opengfx now
22:27:41 <frosch123> does "openttd --help" mention any trace of opengfx?
22:27:48 <uktab> Wish linux had drag n drop ;)
22:29:30 <uktab> @froschl32 : no mention at all. It says 5 missing graphics sets
22:32:27 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie
22:32:35 <uktab> @Yexo - that's the zip I already dl'd. This time I extract to which folder? Data?
22:33:18 <Yexo> ~ is short for your home directory, note the dot in ".openttd"
22:34:55 <uktab> When I click 'extract' and navigate to 'games' - You don't have the right permissions..."
22:35:25 <Yexo> who said you had to navigate to "games"?
22:36:08 <Yexo> you navigate to your home folder (which is ~), than into ".openttd" (with the dot, you might ahve to turn on "view hidden files"), than into "data"
22:36:14 <uktab> \share\games\openttd\data
22:36:17 <Yexo> create those if they don't exist yet
22:36:39 <Yexo> that is a global directory, you need root privileges to write there
22:37:45 <uktab> I clicked the 'home' icon in the Extract manager
22:38:46 <uktab> The folder could not b created
22:39:20 <Yexo> can you open a console window?
22:40:07 <Yexo> than "pwd"<enter>, what is the output?
22:40:38 <Yexo> it should be "/home/<your_user_name>"
22:41:16 <Yexo> ok, type "mkdir .openttd"<enter>
22:42:24 <frosch123> did you extract the grf to a file named ".openttd" instead of a directory?
22:42:33 <Yexo> wait, when you clicked on "home" in extract manager, where did you end up?
22:42:44 <Yexo> in "/" or in "/home/username" ?
22:43:06 <uktab> The icons at the top were 'home' and in that it said 'nina'
22:44:34 <uktab> from left to right - 'type a file name', 'file system', 'home','nina'
22:45:23 <Yexo> can you navigate to "/home/username/.openttd" ?
22:45:52 <uktab> That folder doesn't show up in the list
22:46:03 <frosch123> that might be hidden, try "cd .openttd" in the console
22:46:33 <uktab> yep - console lets me in
22:46:49 <frosch123> and then "cd data"?
22:47:02 <uktab> no such file ordirectory
22:47:44 <Yexo> where is opengfx zip file?
22:48:26 <Yexo> so now do "mv ~/Downloads/opengfx-0.3.7-all.zip ."
22:48:40 <uktab> from inside 'data' folder
22:49:15 <Yexo> after that "unzip opengfx-0.3.7-all.zip"
22:51:51 <uktab> Opengfx zip isn't there. It's in the temp folder now?
22:52:19 <Yexo> just put every command exactly as I wrote it in the terminal
22:53:12 <uktab> I did but I thought it was in Downloads - that's where I tell Firefox to download to, but it wasn't there, it was in 'tmp'so console coudn't find it
22:53:52 <Yexo> than download it again and make sure it's in Downloads now
22:54:12 <Yexo> did you by chance select "open" instead of "save" in firefox?
22:54:56 <Yexo> firefox will only put it in Downlaods/ if you chose "save"
22:55:16 <uktab> Should have realised from my windows days!
22:55:17 <Yexo> the safer option is to save a file first, than open it from the downloads folder. That way you know exactly where it is
22:56:33 <uktab> missing file operand - let me scroll back up and see if I missed something
22:57:00 <Yexo> final dot in the mv command
22:57:56 <Yexo> it's "mv <file_to_move> <target_directory>"
22:58:03 <Yexo> a single dot means "current directory"
22:58:26 <uktab> Got it! Thanx. Now I extract?
22:58:37 <Yexo> yes, that's what the unzip command is for
22:58:58 <uktab> Forgot to scroll... had a long day! ;)
22:59:49 <uktab> k - gonna try openttd ...
23:00:43 <frosch123> now select "check online content"
23:00:49 <uktab> Thanx froschl32 and yexo :)
23:00:55 <frosch123> and get "opensfx", "openmsx" and "admiralai"
23:01:02 <uktab> and anyone else who helped.
23:01:04 <frosch123> ignore the rest for now
23:01:09 <Yexo> and good night to everyone
23:01:22 <frosch123> too much fancy stuff is too confusing in the beginning :)
23:01:58 <uktab> I don't like making Microsft rich but it would be nice to have drag and drop in linux...!
23:02:16 <frosch123> actually there is drag&drop :)
23:02:31 <frosch123> no idea what you are using when you do not have it
23:03:08 <frosch123> well, the console is an advancted tool which does not require drag&drop
23:03:37 <frosch123> we only told you to use it, because it is easier to tell you what to type, than where to click
23:05:34 <uktab> I just want my sister to be able to play on that linux computer. Her laptop broke and she couldn't afford a Windows machine so I toldher to get a LInux one.
23:06:01 <uktab> I'm trying to get it working before I give it back to her!
23:08:47 <uktab> Is there a speed control for the game?
23:09:19 <frosch123> there is fast forward and pause
23:09:35 <frosch123> and the change date cheat
23:10:24 <uktab> ok - Sorry - I've never played this b4 but I heard it was good. I remember simcity and theme hospital had speed controls
23:10:53 <uktab> seems as if the days are going up every second!
23:18:56 <Eddi|zuHause> a day is roughly 2.22 seconds
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