IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-13
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05:51:01 <Terkhen> good morning
05:53:44 <Lachie> hey guys, I'm encountering an error with a GRF file I'm coding that I've never seen before
05:54:15 <planetmaker> moin
05:54:17 <Lachie> "read past end of pseudo-sprite"
05:54:37 <planetmaker> it's an nfo syntax error or an nml bug
05:55:16 <planetmaker> i.e. one sprite should for syntactical reasons be longer than it is
05:55:17 <Lachie> I figured as much. Have the specifications changed? I had no issue running it the last time I worked on it (would have been over a year ago, mind you)
05:55:49 <planetmaker> No, they didn't change. But OpenTTD might complain more verbosely about incorrect NewGRFs
05:56:25 <Lachie> hmm. I would have thought renum would pick up this sort of things
05:56:44 <planetmaker> one would think so, yes
05:57:04 <Lachie> cheers anyway. Is there any way to get it to be more specific about the error? back in the day TTDP would give you a sprite number and a bit more info
05:57:29 <planetmaker> -d grf=X where X could go up from 1 ... 9. I'd start with 1
05:57:36 <planetmaker> openttd -d grf=1
05:57:55 <Lachie> alright, I'll give it a try
05:58:34 <planetmaker> indeed I wonder why it doesn't give the sprite number right away.
05:59:10 <planetmaker> which renum do you use, Lachie? Make sure you use a 5.x
06:01:13 <Lachie> oh wow. I'm wildly out of date. Will get to on to that promptly.
06:02:59 <planetmaker> get it from
06:03:16 <planetmaker> (nforenum and grfcodec are now one package)
06:03:22 <planetmaker> but still two programmes
06:03:47 <planetmaker> thus usage didn't change
06:06:23 <Lachie> hum
06:06:51 <Lachie> new version hasn't changed anything. The debug window doesn't give any extra information
06:08:03 <Lachie> though interestingly enough it has loaded a single engine from the grf.
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06:11:50 <appe> morning
06:12:34 <Lachie> okay, excellent, seems to have pointed me in the direction of what I need to know
06:17:52 <planetmaker> good :-)
06:18:12 <planetmaker> often it's a property used with an invalid length
06:18:35 <planetmaker> and moin appe
06:20:35 <Lachie> yeah indeed, and it's been so long since I've written NFO that I've almost forgotten how to read it! But found the bugger.
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06:28:52 * planetmaker nowadays recommends writing NewGRFs in NML ;-)
06:35:44 <Lachie> planetmaker: given my repeated failings at writing any sort of coding language other than NFO, I somehow doubt it would work.
06:36:51 <Lachie> would also prefer not to rewrite 2000 lines of NFO in NML xD
06:37:49 <planetmaker> can only make it simpler ;-)
06:38:12 <Lachie> is it possible to convert between them yet? Last time I checked it couldn't be done
06:38:15 * planetmaker has done so with 20000 lines :-P
06:38:58 <planetmaker> this time it can't be done automatically either.
06:39:15 <Lachie> planetmaker: it's taken me 7 years to write these 2000 lines, mind you :P
06:40:02 <planetmaker> see. That's why ;-)
06:40:29 <Terkhen> rewriting is usually not an option, unless the conversion script works for you and you are willing to fix the resulting code
06:41:00 <planetmaker> sadly yes
06:43:37 <planetmaker> though I'd probably do that for any NewGRF where I want to do more than a few small bug fixes
06:43:57 <planetmaker> already adding the parameters to TTRS kinda was quite annoying
06:44:03 <planetmaker> *parameter gui
06:44:23 <Terkhen> but that's because we are willing to fix the resulting code :P
06:44:46 <Terkhen> it is a lot of work
06:44:55 <planetmaker> yes, it is
06:45:41 <planetmaker> though we managed to convert opengfx from nfo to nml in less than two weeks ;-)
06:46:06 <planetmaker> but that's mostly easy nfo
06:46:09 <planetmaker> or was
06:46:16 <Terkhen> :P
06:46:26 <Lachie> still a huge file regardless, I can respect that
06:47:35 <planetmaker> I consider the last two weeks an investment into the future :-)
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07:43:03 <DDR_> What's the difference between nfo and nml? Is there some page I can read about it?
07:44:05 <planetmaker> "what's the difference between assembler and C?" is the same type of question. Read
07:44:46 <dihedral> good morning
07:44:51 <planetmaker> hi dihedral
07:45:16 * planetmaker must always resist the urge to write "Heidi" instead ;-)
07:46:05 <planetmaker>
07:49:36 <dihedral> pffft
07:49:38 <DDR_> Great book, that. ^_^
07:50:10 <dihedral> why germans want to pronounce the nick like the german word 'die' i do not know
07:50:50 <dihedral> in my ears it sounds more like a german pronounced 'dai'
07:50:57 <planetmaker> I know :-)
07:51:04 <dihedral> so not fair ^^
07:51:41 <planetmaker> but that doesn't stop me 'hearing' "Heidi" I write "Hi dih..."
07:51:48 <dihedral> it was terrible being in a german css clan once with that nick - i hated being on teamspeak :-D
07:51:55 <dihedral> :-D
07:51:57 <planetmaker> see ;-)
07:52:03 <dihedral> lol
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07:52:44 <planetmaker> I would pronounce it (in de pronounciation) as "daihidrael" but as "die"
07:53:31 <norbert79> Morning all
07:53:52 <norbert79> Teamspeak... Bah.. Mumble for the win :)
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07:55:09 <DDR_> Dear lord..
08:00:37 <norbert79> <planetmaker> -> this reminds me always on the Bullyparade and on the "Heidi" scenes... :)
08:01:23 <norbert79> "Großvater, Großvater" "Ja, Heidi?" :)
08:01:36 <planetmaker> hehe
08:02:50 <norbert79> I wonder how dihedral would look with hair locks :) (Hope it's the right word)
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08:12:15 <DDR_> Maybe 'dreadlocks'?
08:12:39 <Ammler> dihedral: change your nick to dehidral :-)
08:13:00 <dihedral> urgs
08:13:48 <dihedral> dieder :-P
08:13:51 <dihedral> yuck
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08:15:12 <norbert79> DDR_: Nah, Heidi would have looked silly as being a rasta... :D
08:16:10 <dihedral> dread locks ;-)
08:16:20 <dihedral> similar to dead lock
08:18:17 <DDR_> Heh.
08:18:47 <z-MaTRiX> [100907] celltech I will admit I'm running a 2.7ghz with only 512mb ram
08:18:48 <z-MaTRiX> [100915] celltech I'm too lazy and cheap to upgrade
08:20:18 <norbert79> Hmm, PS3 also has only 512 MB of RAM
08:20:24 <norbert79> so considering this...
08:20:26 <norbert79> :)
08:20:40 <z-MaTRiX> ;>
08:21:05 <z-MaTRiX> i had 5112mb on w98 and xp, but thee vectorgraphic performance wasnt too cool
08:21:09 <z-MaTRiX> *512
08:21:20 <dihedral> :-D
08:21:25 <norbert79> 5112 MB and Windows 98... Niccce :)
08:21:30 <z-MaTRiX> it was more usable with 768MB and kindof ok with 1GB
08:21:49 <z-MaTRiX> its only my keyboard repeat rate ;/
08:22:22 <z-MaTRiX> pushes key in after an instant
08:22:22 <norbert79> I used or still use a GB big HDD in my 486. Plain Bios can't see in full, DOS neither, yet Linux can. Has 40MB of RAM, have to cut off 8, when starting Simcity 2000 :D
08:22:31 <norbert79> 8 GB
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08:22:50 <norbert79> (486 can handle HDD up to 4 GB or 6, can't recall)
08:24:11 <z-MaTRiX> ;/
08:24:19 <z-MaTRiX> i only remember the 32GB bios bug
08:24:43 <norbert79> Well, 486's couldn't handle big HDD using DOS or Windows 98
08:24:54 <norbert79> but thje funny thing: Linux can use all the sapce
08:24:55 <norbert79> space
08:25:07 <z-MaTRiX> well i had a pentium II cpu with 40GB hdd
08:25:19 <z-MaTRiX> and a 486 is 32 bit also
08:25:26 <z-MaTRiX> with FPU
08:25:37 <norbert79> sure, mine was AMD 5x86-133 Mhz
08:25:40 <norbert79> is
08:25:44 <norbert79> cause I still have it
08:26:10 <z-MaTRiX> so the 486 board has a 8GB bug in hdd controller?
08:26:16 <norbert79> probably
08:26:40 <norbert79> I see also remarks when booting Slackware kernel telling, that BIOS cannot see HDD in full, working around of it
08:26:43 <z-MaTRiX> i believe the motherboard has the limit on memory too
08:26:51 <norbert79> sure, 64 MB
08:26:56 <z-MaTRiX> you cant put in 1GB edo modules ...
08:26:59 <z-MaTRiX> <;
08:27:06 <norbert79> no, not really possible :))
08:27:13 <norbert79> besides mine aren't EDO :)
08:27:19 <norbert79> don't ask me what type, but sure not EDO
08:27:26 <PeanutHorst> mine could theoretically take 160MB
08:27:26 <norbert79> cause I tried them
08:27:38 <PeanutHorst> unless they've made 256MB 72-pin modules by now
08:27:39 <z-MaTRiX> SD ram ?
08:27:49 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: probably FPM
08:27:53 <z-MaTRiX> sd in 486 sounds new
08:27:54 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: Probably..
08:28:10 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: But I have 2 16MB big modules, and my old two 4 MB
08:28:28 <norbert79> inside
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08:28:39 <norbert79> And AWE 64... Heh, haters gonna hate :)
08:29:14 <z-MaTRiX> soon i'll upgrade my system too
08:29:45 <z-MaTRiX> phenom 2 x2 or x4, 4GB+ ddr3 @ 1333MHz
08:29:56 <z-MaTRiX> i'll set /tmp on ramfs
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08:30:33 <z-MaTRiX> and i wontneed any swap :)
08:30:45 <peter1138> ...
08:30:51 <norbert79> SWAP is always necessary, unfortunetally
08:31:03 <norbert79> and in Linux without swap you cannot hibernate
08:31:06 <z-MaTRiX> dont tellme i need swap with 8GB ram
08:31:20 <norbert79> z-MaTRiX: Depends what you are running
08:31:24 <z-MaTRiX> never used more than 2GB
08:31:38 <norbert79> I would still make some measurements first
08:31:49 <peter1138> i need swap with 4GB RAM
08:32:12 <z-MaTRiX> ;/
08:32:15 <norbert79> and /tmp on RAMFS is also kind of risky
08:32:26 <peter1138> not needed it with 6GB
08:32:33 <peter1138> though it's still there
08:32:34 <norbert79> and in Linux you would need at LEAST the size of your RAM for setting as SWAP
08:32:36 <peter1138> why is it risky?
08:32:51 <peter1138> /tmp tmpfs is going to be default at some point
08:33:04 <norbert79> peter1138: Some spcific files are stored in /tmp, in case for RAM error it could affect the functionality or working of important running applications
08:33:17 <norbert79> sure, but not /tmp in ramfs
08:33:21 <z-MaTRiX> well yes, tmpfs writes to swap if ram is getting full
08:33:29 <z-MaTRiX> ramfs wont
08:33:44 <norbert79> I would still store temporary files into temporary hard-disk space
08:33:47 <peter1138> hm
08:34:05 <norbert79> yet of course I always think in server-like situations...
08:34:18 <z-MaTRiX> norbert79<< i have seen guys putting /tmp on encrypted volume with random password on boot
08:34:31 <norbert79> Mine is full encrypted using LVM :)
08:34:32 <z-MaTRiX> also they used to delete everything on it at boot
08:34:48 <norbert79> sure, every distro does that, unless application defines otherwise
08:34:57 <norbert79> I use some which actively use /tmp
08:34:58 <z-MaTRiX> though redhat plas lol with it
08:35:04 <z-MaTRiX> plays
08:35:09 <norbert79> lot
08:35:15 <z-MaTRiX> lets system store rootkits in /tmp
08:35:34 <norbert79> if a rootkit gets to your system, it won't get bothered by /tmp :)
08:35:43 <norbert79> it will just screw yours up bad
08:36:18 <peter1138> hmm, run /tmp is on tmpfs for ages
08:36:21 <norbert79> Talking about UNIX, Dennis M Ritchie passed away :(
08:36:25 <peter1138> it's /var/run etc that's moving to tmpfs too
08:37:12 <z-MaTRiX> would be nice if they make default "noatime" everywhere
08:37:19 <norbert79> peter1138: Yeah, I am very 'happy' about that... Damn stupid, that will break tons of different distros when distupgrading... Or if it doesn't, it will sure cause some headaches. I already made a ~run on my /
08:37:29 <z-MaTRiX> itsa lol
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08:38:42 <norbert79> Yet it sure serves more purpose than when having 'cdrom' in root... That wasn't funny either
08:38:58 <norbert79> and still isn't
08:39:13 <peter1138> yeah, that's... why?
08:39:24 <peter1138> and initrd/vmlinuz, for that matter
08:39:39 <peter1138> nobody uses those any more
08:39:53 <norbert79> I still prefer it
08:40:05 <norbert79> Never liked monolitic kernels
08:40:17 <z-MaTRiX> btw im considering to install a linux from scratch
08:40:40 <norbert79> z-MaTRiX: You don't have any girlfriend... And if you start with it, you will never have
08:40:46 <peter1138> eh? what does monolithic kernels have to do with it?
08:40:49 <z-MaTRiX> ahaha
08:40:49 <norbert79> it will take THAT ammount of time from your life :)
08:41:11 <z-MaTRiX> i write a bashscript for it
08:41:24 <norbert79> peter1138: How would you access an encrypted drive without initrd?
08:41:31 <norbert79> z-MaTRiX: Even worse then :D
08:41:40 <peter1138> norbert79, no reason for it to be in /
08:41:46 <peter1138> in /boot, yes...
08:41:48 <norbert79> peter1138: Oh, that
08:42:01 <peter1138> and they are in /boot
08:42:01 <norbert79> peter1138: Well, yes, but because of old UNIX compatibility
08:42:22 <norbert79> peter1138: and if you have no boot because it's not needed, having them in / is much easier
08:42:28 <norbert79> BSD's still use / for that
08:42:39 <norbert79> at least OpenBSD 3.4 did
08:42:49 <z-MaTRiX> clear;e=eval\ ;p=printf\ ;x="$e$p\$";u=USER;n=NAME;r=$(stty -g);stty raw -echo;read -sn1 -p \[$($x$u)@$(${x}HOST$n):~\]$\ ;a="The Matrix has you now $(grep $($x$u$n) /etc/passwd |awk -F: '{print $5}')...";while [ "$a" ];do $p\%c "$a";a=${a:1};sleep .$(($RANDOM*20));done;stty "$r";$p\\n
08:42:52 <z-MaTRiX> :)
08:43:24 <norbert79> it lists your /etc/passwd... so?
08:43:35 <norbert79> like passwords would be still there :)
08:43:37 <z-MaTRiX> not exactly
08:44:08 <norbert79> well, it modifies a bit too, but decent systems do backups of /etc/passwd ;-)
08:44:29 <z-MaTRiX> still cold
08:44:40 <norbert79> not in a mood for analysis, just tell
08:44:48 <norbert79> haven't eaten yet anything today
08:44:58 <z-MaTRiX> yeah sounds familiar
08:45:04 <z-MaTRiX> will go in a few mins too
08:45:22 <z-MaTRiX> well you can run it to test, its a bashscript
08:45:33 <norbert79> yeah, right... lol
08:45:47 <norbert79> not in a mood for chroot-ing it
08:45:55 <norbert79> so don't test me, just tell :)
08:46:25 <norbert79> (btw it was obvious of BASH... KSH uses partly some points different)
08:46:26 <z-MaTRiX> that'd not make it cool anymore
08:46:39 <norbert79> alright then don't... I am off eating
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08:46:59 <z-MaTRiX> btw
08:47:16 <z-MaTRiX> clear;e=eval\ ;p=printf\ ;x="$e$p\$";u=USER;n=NAME;r=$(stty -g);stty raw -echo;read -sn1 -p \[$($x$u)@$(${x}HOST$n):~\]$\ ;while read -n1 a;do $p \\$($p '%03o' $(($($p'%d' "'"$($p'%c' "$a")"")-1)));sleep .$(($RANDOM*2));done< <($p\%q 'Uif!Nbusjy!ibt!zpv!'"$($p'%s' "$(grep $($x$u$n) /etc/passwd |awk -F: '{print $5}')" | while read -n1 y;do $p'%c' "$($p\\$($p'%03o' $(($($p'%d' "'$($p'%c' "$y")")+1))))";
08:47:30 <z-MaTRiX> done;)"'///');stty "$r";$p\\n
08:47:35 <z-MaTRiX> here it is more obscured
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08:53:49 <Elukka> today i learned that there is an entire line of HO scale couples in the act of boinking
08:54:11 <Elukka> an interesting detail for a layout, i suppose
08:55:10 <Korenn> Elukka: time to model up a brothel? :P
08:55:35 <Elukka> well there's enough different ones to make it work
08:58:44 <PeanutHorst> ...
08:59:00 <PeanutHorst> yeah this is why I'm not into scale modelling.
08:59:18 <Elukka> sexy, sexy scale modelling
08:59:29 <PeanutHorst> ... you're not helping your case.
09:00:26 <Elukka> okay, how about simply awesome modelling?
09:00:26 <Elukka>
09:00:28 <Elukka> (not mine)
09:02:46 <Korenn> I used to be impressed with model railroad builders, until I met warhammer players. those guys are nuts :P
09:03:22 <Elukka> i've done some warhammer
09:03:48 <Elukka> i contend there are more insane model railroaders
09:03:50 <Korenn> I did too. until I found out that I couldn't be arsed with all the detail for single figures
09:04:00 <Elukka>
09:04:02 <Korenn> possibly, never met them
09:04:08 <norbert79> Elukka: The Konditorei looks lovely
09:04:20 <Elukka> i wish i had the skill
09:04:23 <norbert79> Elukka: Wow to the second one too
09:04:28 <norbert79> It takes patience
09:04:32 <Elukka> HO figures are a lot smaller than warhammer figures too :P
09:04:34 <norbert79> use to do maquettes
09:04:53 <peter1138> that last one almost doesn't look like a model
09:05:05 <norbert79> peter1138: Agree
09:05:05 <peter1138> the figures are obvious
09:05:09 <peter1138> and the shadows are too crisp
09:05:18 <norbert79> peter1138: But it is a model
09:05:28 <peter1138> norbert79, exactly...
09:05:44 <norbert79> Thats the amazing part :)
09:05:55 <peter1138> tbh
09:05:55 <Elukka> my extent of scratchbuilding so far... kinda messy but i think it'll do for an old worn down building
09:06:01 <peter1138> i looked at the second one first
09:06:08 <peter1138> it wasn't until i looked at the first one that i realised :p
09:06:32 <norbert79> Elukka: Now that's a challenge
09:07:11 <Korenn> that's pretty cool. But personally I rather put my creativity into making digital stuff - that way it can be used more than just once :)
09:07:29 <Elukka> i do digital too :P
09:07:39 <norbert79> Korenn: If you do real stuff and then digital or the opposite, the one helps always the other
09:07:46 <Korenn> nowadays you could model that wall in digital and have it 3d printed
09:07:51 <norbert79> Korenn: Since it's the tool different, not the topic
09:08:06 <Elukka> 3D printing has issues
09:08:20 <Elukka> i've yet to see any affordable 3D printing service that has good enough quality
09:08:26 <Elukka> plus even then it's expensive
09:08:40 <Korenn> norbert79: sure, but the results aren't usable in the same way. if I model a wall like that in Blender it will take about the same amount of time, but I can spawn the wall in my games thousands of times, and use it in lots of projects.
09:08:53 <norbert79> I have seen one recording, which provides good 3d quality, but it sure is expensive
09:08:59 <Elukka> yes but your wall doesn't actually exist in the physical world :P
09:09:00 <Korenn> while as a physical thing you only have the one
09:09:13 <Korenn> Elukka: unless you have it printed :)
09:09:22 <norbert79> Korenn: Sure, but achiving the same effect, like a busted wall is being done the same way, or can be done
09:09:32 <Korenn> though ofcourse
09:09:43 <Korenn> if you're talking 3d printer, one should also include 3d scanner
09:09:49 <Korenn> which would allow the reverse
09:09:55 <Korenn> but is a bit broken still, in practice
09:09:56 <Elukka> i'd love to just 3D model stuff and have it printed
09:10:03 <Elukka> the technology isn't quite there yet, though
09:10:11 <norbert79> not true
09:10:14 <Elukka>
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09:10:17 <Elukka> when a print looks like that...
09:10:17 <Korenn> Elukka: we use
09:10:22 <norbert79> I have seen one company doing 3d printing on a business level
09:10:31 <Elukka> yeah i know shapeways
09:10:45 <Korenn> they do metal too
09:10:51 <Elukka> of course if you're enough of a madman you can still make out of that
09:10:56 <Korenn> and with a little bit of filing, it looks really awesome
09:10:58 <Elukka> yeah they do and its humongously expensive
09:11:19 <norbert79> or you take the time and make it on your own using real materials :)
09:11:37 <norbert79> like good ol' times
09:11:49 <norbert79> buying steel, forming it...
09:12:13 <Elukka> i considered using shapeways but didn't figure any real use for it
09:12:14 <Elukka> modeling wise
09:12:33 <norbert79> Elukka: One example, if you are a Sci-Fi fan you can get easily different accessories through them
09:12:41 <norbert79> Elukka: Like a communicator in Star Trek
09:12:58 <Elukka> i also considered printing some of my 3D spaceships for fun :P
09:13:04 <Elukka> but too expensive, not good enough looking
09:13:15 <norbert79> why not printing it part by part?
09:13:20 <norbert79> and then assemble it
09:13:22 <norbert79> :)
09:13:28 <Elukka> it's still not gonna be any cheaper or look any better
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09:13:44 <norbert79> well, not sure on the look side
09:13:49 <norbert79> but sure on the expensive part
09:15:32 <Elukka> they charge by volume of material used
09:15:50 <Elukka> doesn't matter how complex the model is
09:16:40 <Elukka> kinda curious now how much wall sections and stuff like that would cost though
09:16:47 <Elukka> and if there's some way to smooth out the grain
09:17:15 <norbert79> 3D printing is nice when building maquettes
09:17:33 <norbert79> easier regaining lost parts
09:17:51 <norbert79> where in the past you had to buy the whole box to get what was missing
09:18:04 <norbert79> and creating the parts wasn't cheap either
09:18:14 <norbert79> or take Lego
09:18:23 <norbert79> well, maybe Lego is not a good example
09:18:28 <norbert79> but you get the idea
09:20:17 <Elukka> huh. shapeways has improved since last i looked
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11:08:09 <norbert79> this is a quiet day
11:21:27 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, this is one of the most active mornings das in the past year or so
11:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> -das
11:32:12 <planetmaker> the bricks on the model are all wrong: they'd usually be shifted 25 ... 50% against the ones in the next row
11:32:40 <planetmaker> and... this referred to a very old comment in this channel...
11:32:55 <planetmaker> note to self: scroll down
11:32:58 <peter1138> heh
11:34:11 <Elukka> yeah, it's just doing that would add several hours to it
11:34:16 <Elukka> assuming you mean the thing i did
11:34:40 <planetmaker> yes, I do
11:34:56 <Elukka> it'd just take too long
11:35:04 <peter1138> but look better
11:35:11 <peter1138> unless you want it to look like tiles
11:35:23 <Elukka> it already takes bloody hours
11:35:24 <planetmaker> it'd look a lot better
11:35:37 <Elukka> now imagine carving every single less than 1 mm tall brick
11:35:38 <Elukka> separately
11:35:47 <Elukka> thousands of them
11:36:07 <Elukka> i'm sure better methods exist, i just don't know of them
11:38:19 <planetmaker> Elukka: don't carve each. But carve horizontal lines and then add vertical ones
11:38:35 <Elukka> every vertical line separately if the bricks are to be displaced
11:38:50 <planetmaker> ?
11:39:31 <planetmaker> but yes, you'd carve a bit. but... hours?
11:39:45 <Elukka> it sure would take a while
11:39:56 <norbert79> Worth knowing how it would look
11:40:36 <Elukka> it really would need another method of doing it
11:41:07 <Elukka> i count that one wall would require approximately 1600 individual vertical lines
11:41:51 <Elukka> vs. 40 or so for the 'tile-like' bricks
11:43:22 <planetmaker> well. carving dashed lines is not that bad as carving completely independent ones
11:43:56 <Elukka> seems very difficult to carve them accurately enough as a dashed line
11:44:12 <Elukka> remember, the tiles are like 2.5 mm wide, 1 mm high
11:44:39 <planetmaker> then create a wire-mesh which you imprint on it
11:45:58 <Elukka> hmm
11:46:51 <Elukka> i'm looking into premade products at the moment
11:47:08 <Elukka> i really need a better wall material too
11:47:24 <Elukka> what i've been using is a kind of a... hard cardboard? kind of thing
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11:52:57 <Elukka>
11:53:03 <Elukka> the best looking self made model brick building i've ever seen
11:53:23 <peter1138> impressive
11:54:03 <planetmaker> quite
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11:55:00 <Elukka> it only takes a few decades' experience and a lot of esoteric tools and substances :P
11:55:40 <norbert79> Elukka: is that your work?
11:55:45 <Elukka> no :D
11:55:58 <norbert79> Damn looks sexy
11:56:11 <norbert79> best work so far I have ever seen
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12:08:36 <Elukka>
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12:33:10 <peter1138> ALL THE LADIES
12:33:46 <norbert79> GET INTO THE KITCHEN!
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12:34:23 <norbert79> lol? :)
12:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> how about using actual bricks? :p
12:39:23 <Eddi|zuHause> saves you carving any lines :p
12:39:32 <PeanutHorst> ALL THE SINGLE LADIES
12:40:51 <norbert79> ...damn you PeanutHorst, have no good idea because of "SINGLE"
12:41:10 <norbert79> without it it was easier :)
12:41:19 <peter1138>
12:43:55 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: it goes "IF YOU LIKED IT THEN YOU SHOULDA PUT A RING ON IT"
12:44:19 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: Life is never that easy or simple, I know that ;-)
12:44:35 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: It's not like buying an iPhone ;-)
12:45:34 <PeanutHorst> trust is like an iPhone screen... once you break it ...
12:45:44 <PeanutHorst> it's time to buy a new iPhone, on a two-year contract :>
12:45:50 <norbert79> lol
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13:53:46 <appe> android.
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14:13:50 <norbert79> Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god... Boardwalk Empire Season 2 is out, and I almost missed the first three episodes...
14:15:15 <planetmaker> you have sooo my pity
14:15:52 <norbert79> planetmaker: Thank you, let me give you a hug...
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14:30:06 <dihedral> urgs
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15:50:17 <Terkhen> hmm... I suppose it is okay to hardcode CT_PASSENGERS for passenger subsidies, since houses are "hardcoded" to produce passengers too
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16:00:48 <dihedral> unless of course you start creating different types of passengers
16:01:19 <dihedral> of... different ... ethnical ... backgrounds....
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16:02:45 <b_jonas> dihedral: not of different ethnical backgrounds, but of different financial backgrounds
16:02:57 <dihedral> hehe
16:03:06 <b_jonas> managers is a new cargo type that pays more than passengers but less of them fit to a vehicle
16:03:15 <b_jonas> they travel on first class
16:03:32 <b_jonas> so passengers are split to managers and tourists
16:05:19 <Terkhen> the only difference is that "passengers" subsidies are more frequent than any other
16:05:29 <Terkhen> hmm... OpenTTD does not scale the amount of subtitles to map size :O
16:05:47 <Terkhen> should it?
16:07:41 <Terkhen> err, s/subtitles/subsidies/
16:08:10 <Elukka> hmm
16:08:13 <Terkhen> now it's quite obvious what I'm planning to do when I get tired of coding
16:08:33 <Elukka> is there already an option for the amount of subsidies?
16:08:37 <Elukka> frequency i mean
16:08:38 <Terkhen> nope
16:08:46 <Elukka> i think that may be better than scaling it to map size
16:09:02 <Terkhen> why not both?
16:09:07 <Elukka> well, sure
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16:10:01 <b_jonas> why not scale it by the number of industries and towns instead?
16:10:47 <Elukka> well i just wouldn't want subsidies to be popping up left and right everywhere just because i'm playing a big map
16:11:26 <Terkhen> b_jonas: because that would be more complicated
16:11:41 <Terkhen> for that, IMO a manual option to tweak the amount would be better
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16:12:36 <b_jonas> how about just scaling with the expected number of industries and towns, computed from the map size multiplied by the difficult options setting the number of towns/industries?
16:13:35 <Terkhen> sorry, what?
16:13:47 <Terkhen> isn't the expected number what the difficulty says?
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16:14:32 <b_jonas> Terkhen: I think the expected number is that product. With the same difficulty settings, you get more industries on a larger map.
16:14:47 <Terkhen> ah, I misunderstood you
16:14:57 <Terkhen> IMO you don't need to complicate things that much
16:16:12 <Terkhen> since subsidies have low base probability anyways, you will not notice small changes
16:18:02 <b_jonas> but then Elukka has a point too: more subsidies might mean more messages (though I have them hidden in the message settings)
16:18:39 <Terkhen> that could be solved with a global parameter that affects the amount regardless of size
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17:48:33 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: did you make magic pink work or figure out a new way for wagon loads yet?
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18:04:25 <Terkhen> currently, subsidy code tries to establish a passenger subsidy by choosing two towns at random, and if that fail they choose a random cargo from a random industry
18:05:16 <Terkhen> I wonder what would be the best way to decide source and destination if we consider that towns can produce and accept anything, opposed to produce only passengers and accept only TE_FOOD and TE_GOODS cargos
18:05:47 <Terkhen> I'm thinking on letting the passenger part as it stands now (they should be more common anyways)
18:06:22 <Terkhen> after that, choose a random cargo and look for appropiate source/destination
18:06:34 <Terkhen> but I think that the random cargo idea is not a good one
18:06:36 <Terkhen> hmmm
18:09:12 <Pinkbeast> Couldn't it start by picking a random unserviced industry or town?
18:10:58 <Terkhen> if you choose a random industry or town, you will end up with too much mail subsidies
18:11:17 <Terkhen> although... maybe that's not a bad thing
18:11:35 <Pinkbeast> And defining an unserviced town is tricky especially in cargodist/YACD worlds.
18:12:08 <Pinkbeast> However, I have one passenger here waiting to go to the pub, so I must leave it here.
18:12:11 <Terkhen> that part of the code is already taken care of
18:12:32 <Terkhen> see you
18:16:15 <Alberth> perhaps try to distribute the subsidies evenly over the map?
18:17:05 <Alberth> (by picking a 'good' towns, then deciding what cargo it has/needs?)
18:17:19 <Terkhen> hmm... it should do that, yes
18:17:22 <Terkhen> it would be nice
18:17:33 <Terkhen> but I still need a way to get a good random source
18:17:51 <Terkhen> the current code just chooses two random industries and if they are not close enough it tries again :P
18:18:14 <Terkhen> maybe I should just give a % chance of town/industry source, it's simple
18:18:51 <Terkhen> then it could pick up a source that is far enough from existing subsidy sources
18:19:26 <b_jonas> why would you want to distribute them evenly on the map?
18:19:34 <Alberth> yeah, don't make it complicated sounds like a good idea
18:22:03 <Terkhen> b_jonas: sometimes I get three subsidies with the same source, that's not very useful
18:22:12 <Terkhen> hmm... or maybe it was same destination, I don't remember
18:22:26 <b_jonas> same destination shouldn't be a problem
18:22:43 <Terkhen> no, but it is boring :P
18:22:44 <b_jonas> same source same cargo type is not very useful, so maybe you want to check that, yes
18:23:51 <b_jonas> make an interface for AI scripts to choose subsidies and leave it to the AI developers to come up with interesting or evil AIs. :-)
18:24:22 <Terkhen> that's a job for a future goal framework
18:24:31 <Terkhen> which I have no intention to code :P
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18:50:01 <Alberth> b_jonas: except players don't make subsidy offers to other players
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18:59:21 <b_jonas> Alberth: sure, it would be more like a GRF thingy
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19:00:37 * Alberth is pretty sure you don't want to code subsidy offers in NFO either :p
19:00:39 <appe>
19:00:40 <appe> <3
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19:25:24 <andythenorth> efening
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19:26:32 <supermop> hello andy
19:28:35 <Alberth> hi andy
19:29:44 <Elukka>
19:29:46 <Elukka> china 2003
19:29:48 <Elukka> pretty awesome
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21:18:57 <DDR_> Hi; can anyone recommend a server with an interesting industrial chain (maybe ECS?) and some people on it?
21:21:06 <Terkhen> good night
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21:47:23 <Monarch1st> hi all
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21:48:36 <Monarch1st> i'm making my own scenario, but i want to delete one of the newgrf files that was inherited from the main program. how do i do that?
21:50:16 <Chris_Booth> hi Monarch1st
21:50:26 <Chris_Booth> you need to edit your openttd.cfg file
21:50:51 <Chris_Booth> it though it not recomended to remove a GRF once it is loaded
21:50:58 <Chris_Booth> as this can cause openttd to crash
21:51:36 <Monarch1st> you mean i have to dump my scenario, and all the work that has gone into it, and start it over?
21:52:27 <Chris_Booth> not realy I am just warning you
21:52:41 <Chris_Booth> you need to change this setting in your openttd.cfg though
21:52:43 <Chris_Booth> scenario_developer = true
21:52:49 <Chris_Booth> yours will be set to false
21:53:08 <Monarch1st> ahh, whew.
21:53:24 <Chris_Booth> but if it is something like a town GRF or an industry GRF it will crash unless you remove all objects in that group
21:53:43 <Chris_Booth> openttd.cfg will be in the share directory
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21:53:55 <Chris_Booth> and you need to edit it with a simple text editor
21:53:59 <Monarch1st> ha! bout 10 secs ahead of me
21:54:22 <Chris_Booth> you will also need to close your game
21:54:29 <Monarch1st> wait. it doesnt have a share directory
21:54:33 <Chris_Booth> or you can type that setting into the games built in consol
21:54:35 <Monarch1st> game already closed
21:54:54 <Chris_Booth> Monarch1st: what OS are you using?
21:55:12 <Monarch1st> win xp pro
21:55:30 <Chris_Booth> then it will be in you my documents folder
21:55:41 <Chris_Booth> my docs/openttd
21:55:45 <Chris_Booth> and use notepad
21:57:39 <Monarch1st> there we go ...
21:57:45 <Chris_Booth> good good
21:57:59 <Chris_Booth> now you will notice a new 'new grf' list
21:58:45 <Monarch1st> woohoo!
21:59:04 <Monarch1st> cool beans, to see if it makes a difference
21:59:11 <Monarch1st> thanks very much!
21:59:43 <Chris_Booth> np
21:59:49 <Chris_Booth> be careful though
21:59:57 <Chris_Booth> and remeber to turn it off again
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22:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: did you make magic pink work or figure out a new way for wagon loads yet? <-- magic pink works. now we need to devise some appropriate recolour maps for black/grey/yellow/red/...
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