IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-08
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01:00:48 <Monarch1st> hi - anyone on tonite?
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01:15:28 <Elukka> yup
01:15:43 <Monarch1st> good!
01:16:03 <Monarch1st> got a question about a terminal station setup. do you have experience?
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01:16:27 <Elukka> only a bit!
01:16:48 <Monarch1st> well, you probably have more than me anyway
01:17:13 <Monarch1st> i set up an 'advanced 4-bay terminal' station
01:17:41 <Monarch1st> about 2/3 the way down the page
01:18:18 <Elukka> hmm, i've kept mine simpler :P
01:18:46 <Monarch1st> the problem is, the 3rd bay gets trains coming into it even if it is full
01:19:16 <Monarch1st> yeah, i used to have it simpler, but the city it serves is much too big now
01:20:07 <Elukka> hmm presignals (and maybe path singnals) should do it
01:20:14 <Elukka>
01:20:16 <Elukka> i ran this last i played
01:20:27 <Elukka> easier to build, uses much less space, though probably less efficient
01:22:37 <Monarch1st> good night thats complicated. and the advantage of this one is exiting trains dont interfere with entering ones.
01:23:01 <Elukka> yeah
01:23:03 <Monarch1st> and its only one-sided. i could put a ro-ro station in, but i'd have to destroy half the city to do it
01:23:48 <Monarch1st> do you know signals in-depth? seems to me the problem is the first signal to the right after the primary pre-signal after the entry bridge
01:25:35 <Monarch1st> i've tried a vertical-light signal, which is what it looks like in the wiki and causes this problem, and also horizontal-light signal which has its own problems
01:26:06 <Yexo> Monarch1st: it's a lot easier if you use path signals
01:26:19 <Yexo> just put a single path signal in front of the junction and no signals afterwards
01:27:09 <Monarch1st> hmm. ok. not familiar with path signals at all. i pull out this game about once a year and they're new since i last played. are they complicated? i haven't even mastered pre-signals yet
01:27:15 <Elukka> nah
01:27:19 <Elukka> path signals are the most
01:27:25 <Elukka> *most foolproof ones
01:27:26 <Yexo> if you want to use presignals the last signal before each platform should be an exit signal. The signal in front of the junction should be a presignal, all signals in between should be combo-signals
01:27:41 <Yexo> path signals are easier and if you use them you don't need any presignals at all
01:27:44 <Elukka> the rule of thumb these days is you use path signals everywhere unless you have a specific reason for using something else
01:27:52 <Yexo> unless you go for really advanced builds
01:28:55 <Monarch1st> ah, combo signals. how are they built? one-click is entry, right? two-clicks is exit? is three-clicks combo?
01:29:09 <Elukka> because my station uses path singnals, more than one train can enter and exit the station as long as their paths don't intersect
01:29:14 <Elukka> even though it's the same signal block
01:29:32 <Yexo> Monarch1st: yes
01:30:27 <Yexo> see
01:30:37 <Yexo> the example image uses two-way signals where it should use one-way ones
01:31:06 <Monarch1st> cool. i'll try the combo now while I read up on path. but before i start, can someone give me a one or two sentence idea what path signals are so i can hang the rest of my reading on?
01:31:46 <Yexo> "let the trains figure it all out"
01:32:33 <Monarch1st> that would be the goal, yes, but doesn't help me define what path signals are. that's how i think that pre-signals are as well
01:32:54 <Yexo> from the wiki: "There are two things you should know about this signal:
01:32:54 <Yexo> Place it only where trains can stop and wait without blocking junctions ;
01:32:54 <Yexo> This signal only works in one direction. In the other direction, it is either ignored or considered a one-way signal, depending on the signal path (see below). "
01:34:31 <Monarch1st> ok, but how does it differe from pre-signals?
01:36:06 <Monarch1st> (cool-the combo signal seems to work. its actually efficient now! excellent)
01:40:19 <Monarch1st> since it works, i'll go read up on path signals. and mark the wiki page.
01:40:21 <Monarch1st> thanks all!
01:40:22 <Elukka> "They act differently from block signals, in that they will allow more than one train to enter a signal block if they’re definitely not going to collide. On a straight bit of track, this means they act pretty much like block signals.
01:40:27 <Elukka> If there’s a complicated patch of track (two ways in, two ways out, for example) and two trains won’t use the same bit of track, they’ll show clear and let them both through at the same time."
01:40:58 <Monarch1st> ah. that helps. nice. very nice! thanks
01:41:06 <Elukka> they're really just better
01:41:39 <Monarch1st> does sound like it
01:43:30 <Elukka> in most situations they'll do the job of presignals too
01:44:13 <Elukka> and suppose you have a basic 2 track line with an X shaped switch between them
01:44:20 <Elukka> it'll let trains pass on the two lines if they're not going to cross to the other
01:44:22 <Elukka> block signals won't
01:45:24 <Monarch1st> that would be very nice. i've had that happen in long double-tracked lines
01:45:45 <Monarch1st> when would they *not* replace pre-signals?
01:47:39 <Elukka> i dunno, i just hear some people still use them somewhere :P
01:48:14 <Monarch1st> ha! i've got reading then
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05:25:35 <planetmaker> moin
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06:34:41 <pikka> mentlegen
06:35:29 <planetmaker> hi pikka
06:35:45 <pikka> hello planetmaker
06:36:09 <pikka> wie gehrts
06:36:39 <planetmaker> och, ganz gut. Und selbst? :-)
06:37:18 <pikka> bored at work. pretty much the only time I come on here... D;
06:37:29 <planetmaker> :-D
06:37:53 <planetmaker> don't sprite and drive! ;-)
06:38:05 <pikka> yes!
06:38:39 <pikka> I'm obviously not actually driving at the minute. :p
06:38:45 <planetmaker> hehe :-)
06:39:24 <planetmaker> Something I wondered about the other but didn't follow up whatsoever: do you still have sprites for water planes?
06:39:41 <pikka> did you see my feature request on flysp? :D
06:39:46 <pikka> yes I do
06:39:50 <planetmaker> iirc it should or could be feasible to already modify an existing airport such that it becomes a water airport
06:40:06 <planetmaker> uhm, no, not that I remember that FS task, but... :-)
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06:40:23 <pikka> there will be two water planes in av8 2.0, in fact
06:40:32 <planetmaker> planes so far could not distinguish it, yes, but... might be nice for those who know where to send which plan :-)
06:40:39 <planetmaker> which FS task?
06:40:48 <pikka> one added today
06:40:59 <pikka> something about inflation...
06:41:08 <planetmaker> oh
06:41:13 <planetmaker> no, hadn't seen it
06:41:51 <planetmaker> sounds feasible to me
06:41:59 <pikka> :D
06:42:13 <planetmaker> but it'd need others to (also) agree
06:42:21 <pikka> yes
06:42:24 <planetmaker> which are all still asleep :-P
06:42:38 <planetmaker> 8:40 on Saturday ;-)
06:42:39 <pikka> lazy people. :)
06:42:43 <planetmaker> tsk!
06:43:29 <pikka> :)
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06:43:40 <pikka> well, Saturday is Monday for me
06:43:53 <pikka> aww
06:44:39 <pikka> two rather underdressed young lasses just asked if I was their bus, and sadly I wasn't. :)
06:45:51 <planetmaker> :-D
06:46:01 <planetmaker> "underdressed". Nice word :-)
06:46:45 * planetmaker wonders how pikka looks like with 4 wheels etc... a nephew of thomas the tank engine? ;-)
06:47:08 <pikka> :D
06:47:24 <pikka> ok, if my bus was their bus.
06:47:34 <pikka> and it has 6 wheels!
06:47:43 <planetmaker> scnr ... hehe :-)
06:48:14 <planetmaker> but so it's not an articulated bus :-)
06:48:39 <pikka> it has two axles but 6 wheels
06:48:58 <pikka> there are 4 wheels on the rear axle
06:50:22 <planetmaker> yeah, most busses here (of those which are not articulated), have also 6 :-)
06:50:43 <pikka> to be precise
06:51:24 <planetmaker> looks very familiar except for the colouring :-)
06:51:42 <pikka> we also have tag buses, which have 8 wheels on 3 axles, and artics which have 10 wheels on 3 axles. :)
06:53:14 <planetmaker> hm... :-) 8 wheels on 3 axis only?
06:54:25 <pikka> steering axle at front with 2, drive axle with 4, another steering with 2. :)
06:55:21 <planetmaker> I wonder whether I've seen such bus already. Maybe I just don't recall
06:55:34 <planetmaker> and our local traffic company has no vehicle images :S
06:55:56 <planetmaker> except for the old trams which one can rent:
06:56:34 <pikka> ok! time to go! :o
06:56:46 <planetmaker> enjoy, pikka! :-)
07:02:08 <peter1138> ohhh
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07:17:02 <pikka> ohhhhhh
07:17:18 <pikka> hello peter
07:18:48 <peter1138> hello pikka <3
07:21:54 <Terkhen> good morning
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08:55:04 <ZirconiumX> Hello everyone.
08:55:15 <ZirconiumX> I found out what the problem was.
08:55:42 <ZirconiumX> Profile guided optimization
08:55:58 <ZirconiumX> the checksum appers to have been wrong
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10:10:14 <planetmaker> hm... google home view :-D
10:11:37 <peter1138> heh
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11:11:14 <Wolf01> hello
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11:17:24 <Pikka> what new sorcery is this?
11:18:03 <planetmaker> the difference between empty and full mouth?
11:19:42 <peter1138> hm
11:20:01 <peter1138> our gui scaling sucks :p
11:20:06 <peter1138> i mean, it's really good
11:20:11 <peter1138> way better than it wa
11:20:12 <peter1138> +s
11:20:23 <peter1138> but i'm trying to improve it :D
11:21:03 <planetmaker> it still has many rough edges, esp. when used with bigGUI grf
11:21:13 <peter1138> that's what i'm working with indeed
11:22:49 <planetmaker> :-)
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11:58:02 <peter1138> i want to avoid getting sprite sizes everywhere
11:58:11 <peter1138> which is currently what would be needed
11:58:54 <peter1138> some things assign *size directly, which thus ignores the minimum size
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12:49:48 <andythenorth> hola
12:51:29 <Pikka> bonsoir
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12:58:17 <andythenorth> monsieur le Pikka
12:58:22 <andythenorth> tres bon
12:58:29 <andythenorth> seulement anglais ici?
12:58:37 <Pikka> nein
12:58:45 <andythenorth> espanol?
12:58:49 <Pikka> oui
12:58:56 <andythenorth> hinglish?
12:59:03 <Pikka> hmaybe
12:59:03 <andythenorth> innit
12:59:16 <Pikka> innit though?
12:59:34 * andythenorth is pondering more lego trains, with more motors
12:59:47 <andythenorth> I had put them all away, but now the toddler likes them
12:59:54 <Pikka> oops
13:00:04 <andythenorth> his opinion is that 'more wagons is better'
13:00:46 <andythenorth> Terkhen:
13:00:47 <andythenorth> hola
13:00:57 <andythenorth> rv-wagons? :P :| :( :D
13:01:02 <andythenorth>
13:01:19 <Terkhen> andythenorth: currently I'm reworking subsidies
13:01:24 <andythenorth> :D
13:01:39 <andythenorth> that won't help get big trucks into the game, but well done :)
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13:04:21 <Terkhen> rv-wagons feels like too complex for what we would get
13:05:28 <Pikka> I've seen some interesting trucks in the city recently
13:05:43 <andythenorth> hmm
13:06:01 <Pikka> they're refurbishing one of the skyscrapers, which includes taking apart a massive concrete raised garden outside the front of it
13:06:02 <andythenorth> Terkhen: how about handling it via an improved system for refits instead?
13:06:20 <andythenorth> refitting to a certain length isn't optimal, but it's not bad
13:06:23 <Terkhen> improved how?
13:06:46 <Terkhen> to solve the autorenew/autoreplace issue?
13:07:15 <andythenorth> among other things
13:07:21 <andythenorth> also the length of the menu
13:07:31 <andythenorth> lets say I have a truck that has 1-4 trailers
13:07:35 <Terkhen> length should be fixed IIRC
13:07:36 <andythenorth> and 31 cargos in the game
13:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <-- i want RV wagons :)
13:08:54 <Kogut> @Terkhen What will be changed?
13:09:00 <andythenorth> that means maybe 124 menu entries :
13:09:02 <andythenorth> :)
13:09:07 <Alberth> Kogut: nobody knows
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13:09:37 <Terkhen> Kogut:
13:09:42 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: do it the other way around, and you have them :)
13:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <- "what is wrong with this picture" :p
13:10:48 <andythenorth> in a pathological case, I could also allow livery refits....
13:10:53 <andythenorth> for 1CC and 2CC
13:11:01 <andythenorth> so 248 menu entries...
13:11:04 <Terkhen> andythenorth: do you mean entries in the refit menu?
13:11:09 <andythenorth> yes
13:11:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the only thing wrong with that picture is that I don't have the lego parts to build that engine yet
13:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well... split the refit gui
13:11:29 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: movable tracks? :p
13:11:29 <Terkhen> the split refit gui would solve that
13:11:32 <andythenorth> +1
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13:19:37 <andythenorth> Terkhen: was the interaction between partial refit and cargo subtypes really horrible to deal with? I just tried to figure it out...
13:20:24 <Terkhen> I'm not sure what you mean
13:20:39 <Terkhen> partial refit had a problem with articulated vehicles
13:21:21 <andythenorth> that's what I mean
13:22:11 <Terkhen> the problem is that NewGRF vehicles do not expect their articulated parts to have different cargos or cargo subtypes
13:23:49 <Terkhen> I don't remember the details, frosch123 explained the problem to me and IIRC it is in the thread too
13:23:53 <andythenorth> that's what I was trying to puzzle out
13:24:12 <andythenorth> I am bored of waiting for a truck set and thinking I should start one soon
13:24:22 <andythenorth> but without rv-wagons or better refits, truck sets suck
13:27:38 <Terkhen> refitting articulated parts separatedly can't happen without (IIRC) big changes to the specs, so it is not going to happen
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13:45:13 <planetmaker> Kogot: <-- that's not appreciated
13:45:33 <planetmaker> Kogut: <-- that's not appreciated
13:45:36 <andythenorth> Pikka: I can haz testing
13:47:05 <Kogut> @planetmaker - OK, I switched to "Lorem ipsum"
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13:51:15 <Eddi|zuHause> does nml do constant-folding on "a=b" expressions yet?
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14:04:59 <andythenorth> Pikka: elvis rocks
14:05:13 <andythenorth> how amusing :)
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14:05:49 <Elukka> i went exploring some abandoned industrial spurs today
14:06:06 <Elukka> somehow it's a mix of finnish, british, and maybe belgian rail
14:06:19 <Elukka> some of it pretty old
14:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm getting crazy...
14:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm changing code
14:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but whatever i try, it always behaves the same way it did before...
14:08:43 <z-MaTRiX> hii
14:08:44 <z-MaTRiX> :)
14:09:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that typically means i'm changing the wrong line...
14:18:03 <Alberth> or a file in the wrong copy :)
14:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i now have the right sprite in the purchase menu ;)
14:21:55 <planetmaker> great :-)
14:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i still have problems with dependencies not honoured properly
14:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the only thing that works is changing
14:24:16 <Pikka> glad you like it, andy
14:24:39 <planetmaker> you're doing something entirely different than me.
14:24:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but neither any of the pnml file nor any other py file
14:24:51 <planetmaker> i.e it works as it should when I touch a pnml file
14:25:06 <planetmaker> the other py files... are probably not added anywhere to the deps
14:25:19 <planetmaker> they're customly added and need of course adding to deps separately
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14:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ok
14:25:31 <planetmaker> that is not nor can be made automatic
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14:25:54 <planetmaker> could contain that dep(s)
14:26:03 <planetmaker> result:
14:26:11 <planetmaker> lines like that will add the dependency
14:26:55 <planetmaker> if it is not given already by a rule itself
14:28:13 * planetmaker looks
14:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so i put this line in there:
14:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> scripts/ scripts/ scripts/ scripts/
14:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> or better:
14:29:32 <planetmaker> if needs changing when one of the three changes: yes
14:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> scripts/ scripts/*.py
14:29:38 <planetmaker> no
14:29:41 <planetmaker> that's invalid
14:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> generate needs re-executing when any of these files change
14:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> they're submodules
14:30:35 <planetmaker> but then the *result_file* of should depend on the other *.py
14:30:38 <planetmaker> not
14:30:53 <planetmaker> as would otherwise be re-build.
14:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> but that means duplicating
14:31:15 <planetmaker> no
14:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> can i put like
14:31:32 <planetmaker> which file is generated by
14:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> GENERATE=scripts/ scripts/ scripts/ scripts/
14:31:36 <planetmaker> or files
14:31:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and then replace other occurances of scripts/ by $GENERATE
14:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it currently appears twice
14:32:20 <planetmaker> $(GENERATE) != $GENERATE
14:32:27 <planetmaker> you want $(GENERATE)
14:32:32 <planetmaker> but yes, you can do that
14:32:35 <Eddi|zuHause> for engines.gnml and for *.lng
14:33:08 <planetmaker> I'll run a few more tests
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14:35:19 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, i'll commit this then
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14:39:37 <planetmaker> I'm not sure whether the 3rd occurance of which you ommited shouldn't be removed completely
14:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, yeah, that looks redundant
14:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> so redundant that i didn't even see it
14:40:54 <planetmaker> hide it in another commit ;-)
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14:41:56 <appe>
14:42:02 <appe> = me playing openttd :(
14:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you look eerily like bill murray
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14:47:42 * ZirconiumX hate Xcode's fancy autocomplete mode
14:47:47 <ZirconiumX> *hates
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15:17:39 * andythenorth needs some help figuring out trucks and refits
15:17:59 <andythenorth> is there a gameplay case that partial refitting of RVs would be useful?
15:18:13 <andythenorth> e.g. truck with two trailers, one liverstock, one milk?
15:18:24 <supermop> yes
15:18:44 <andythenorth> what's the case? Is it really essential?
15:18:52 <supermop> generic box truck carrying various goods/supplies
15:18:55 <andythenorth> (as it's not possible...probably )
15:18:56 <supermop> nope
15:18:58 * ZirconiumX agrees - but has not got the faintest idea what he's on about
15:19:11 <supermop> just cute for little city vans and trucks
15:19:32 <supermop> passenger car carrying one engineering supply in the trunk
15:19:45 <supermop> and four miners up front
15:20:14 <andythenorth> that's strictly two cargos on one vehicle.
15:20:18 <andythenorth> not going to happen :)
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15:21:00 <supermop> my subaru had a shadow
15:23:09 <supermop> why do you bring it up, andy?
15:23:25 <Terkhen> because of rv-wagons
15:23:28 <Terkhen> :P
15:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the cases where i usually need that are e.g transferring from seaport to factory
15:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: putting passengers and ENSP into one (articulated) vehicle is actually pretty easy
15:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the two articulated parts must have distinct cargo refit lists
15:25:42 <supermop> like a little blue impreza?
15:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> like an ET87 with two passenger steering cars and an engine with mail compartment
15:28:03 <supermop> if its possible might as well do it, but i am not sure how much i would need it apart from the novelty factor
15:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the ET87 in CETS can carry 100 passengers and 20 mail/10 goods/5 food
15:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the 100 passengers stays constant during refitting, and mai/goods/food you can refit freely
15:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (also alcohol, milk and fruit)
15:31:31 <supermop> so i was playing with aircraft last night, for the first time since tto
15:31:44 <supermop> i was losing one every 3 trips about
15:31:54 <supermop> and that is small planes at large airports
15:31:57 <planetmaker> don't send the big ones to a small airport
15:32:05 <supermop> see above
15:32:07 <planetmaker> :-)
15:32:32 <appe> <-
15:32:41 <supermop> i was using pikkas set, and sticking to only the planes that said 'small' as i had very low passenger volume
15:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you can turn off crashes
15:34:21 <supermop> yeah?
15:34:38 <supermop> i changed the thing in the cheat menu but it did not seem to help
15:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no, not that one
15:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there's another setting for "regular" crashes
15:35:12 <supermop> hmm
15:35:22 <supermop> in advanced settings?
15:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:36:11 <supermop> ok il take a look when i get home
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15:43:50 <openot> hello, need tip for the beginner
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15:45:24 <openot> i want to play with ai and use some advanced cargo routes
15:45:33 <openot> so i need tip
15:45:43 <LordAro> evening
15:45:47 <openot> hi
15:45:49 <planetmaker> hi
15:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> openot: and we're supposed to guess the question?
15:48:28 <openot> it's like that i can download from online content so i can start playing like beginner?
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15:49:21 <Kogut> yes
15:49:33 <Kogut> most ais are not very impressive
15:49:48 <openot> like i download game 10 min ago, found i need select some ai, some newgrf for more interesting routines and so on
15:50:18 <openot> but there are tons of everything in online to download
15:50:31 <Kogut> you can try game or two without newgrfs
15:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> AIs are automatically used after downloading, GRFs you have to activate after downloading in the NewGRF settings (but not all at once!)
15:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> many GRFs make stuff more complicated, so they're probably not suited for a beginner
15:51:28 <Kogut> especially train/industry newgrfs
15:52:20 <openot> maybe i can use some scenario for beginners and it's will contain grf and ai by itself?
15:52:25 <Alberth> hi LordAro
15:52:57 <Alberth> openot: I don't think there is much specially aimed at beginners
15:53:36 <Alberth> openot: Did you play TTD in the past, as most beginners are fine with playing without additions.
15:53:39 <planetmaker> openot: just take a random AI and a random map and you should be good
15:53:40 <Alberth> ?
15:54:07 <openot> ok, what AI is good to play with (by your opinion)?
15:54:47 <Alberth> depends on what you expectations from it. Personally, I always play without opponents
15:55:52 <Alberth> SimpleAI aims to mimic the old AI, there are also competitive AIs. There is a list of AIs at the wiki somewhere
15:55:52 <Kogut> I suggest NoCab or AdmiralAI
15:55:55 <LordAro> hi Alberth
15:56:16 <openot> ok thanks
15:56:18 <Kogut>
15:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> openot: just take all AIs, and let the game randomly choose them
15:57:28 <openot> oh, it's better with wiki :)
15:57:30 * Alberth wonders how to do such a thing with NewGRFs as well :p
15:57:53 <Alberth> openot: yep, there is much information there
15:58:10 <planetmaker> Alberth: via presets
15:58:45 <Alberth> "let the game randomly choose them"? :p
15:58:53 <planetmaker> though presets currently have one big backdraw: they store the version of the newgrfs. which usually is not what I want
16:01:07 <Alberth> we need newgrf dependency resolving, so I can load a newgrf and it automagically loads other ones that i need and like
16:03:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there are two problems with your suggestion for the two-part articulated RV solution
16:03:59 <andythenorth> 1. partial refit won't work, that's not bad in the case where lead vehicle is PAX-only, but fails for other cases
16:04:09 <andythenorth> 2. can't use drive-into roadstops
16:04:41 <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out which would be the most sane route of these 3, for a truck set
16:05:08 <andythenorth> 1. code it as per current spec allows, with each truck just having one trailer, or a fixed number, or very limited refits (like HEQS trams)
16:05:36 <andythenorth> 2. rv-wagons
16:05:40 <andythenorth> 3. don't do it
16:06:43 <Alberth> 4. use lego instead
16:07:14 <andythenorth> it's frustrating but totally resolvable
16:07:26 <andythenorth> rv-wagons would entirely solve it
16:07:47 <andythenorth> or a careful implementation using refits would be workable, with a few nasty pitfalls
16:08:55 <andythenorth> a nasty case is trucks that carry cargo and can haul trailers
16:09:19 <andythenorth> it's desirable to be able to route them to drive-into stops
16:09:26 <andythenorth> hmm
16:09:31 <andythenorth> perhaps that's what needs to be dropped
16:10:00 <andythenorth> who uses drive-into stations? For example, with HEQS, does anyone rely on routing the Mogs to those stops?
16:10:17 <supermop> ive been using them lately actually
16:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: offer the truck separately with trailer and without?
16:11:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's not horrible, but not at all nice
16:11:16 <andythenorth> it makes the buy menu suck
16:11:27 <andythenorth> I like egrvts, but the buy menu is way overcrowded
16:11:32 <openot> sorry, am i right, using ECS Basic(and other) vectors i'll get more advanced industries?
16:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> openot: yes, but they are very difficult
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16:13:12 <openot> i already play something like this with tddpatch few years ago
16:13:46 <Alberth> FIRS is another industry set
16:14:37 <andythenorth> FIAIS
16:14:49 <andythenorth> FIAIS Is Another Industry Set
16:14:54 <andythenorth> I'm bored of FIRS
16:14:59 <andythenorth> I'm starting again from scratch
16:16:17 <Alberth> :o
16:18:20 <Kogut> !
16:18:49 <openot> firs is in online content, - ok will try
16:19:44 <andythenorth> openot: get the latest beta release, it's way better
16:19:46 <andythenorth> I'll find a link
16:20:00 <andythenorth> openot:
16:20:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that won't work if he's playing stable
16:20:56 <andythenorth> oh yes
16:20:58 <andythenorth> how sad
16:22:08 <planetmaker> damn new technology ;-)
16:22:28 <andythenorth> should do it Chrome style
16:22:32 <andythenorth> no 'stable'
16:22:44 <peter1138> OpenTTD
16:22:45 <andythenorth> well kind of
16:22:47 <Alberth> everybody compiles trunk :)
16:22:58 <andythenorth> everybody compiles about 1 week behind trunk
16:23:05 <andythenorth> except for critical security failures
16:23:20 <andythenorth> how many critical security issues has ottd had?
16:23:26 <andythenorth> anything that could get your box owned?
16:23:38 <planetmaker> the box? difficult
16:23:47 <planetmaker> but maybe two, three
16:23:54 <Eddi|zuHause> call it
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16:24:50 <andythenorth>
16:25:03 <andythenorth> "The idea was to give people a blank window with an autoupdater. If they installed that, over time the blank window would grow into a browser"
16:25:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been several CVEs
16:27:24 <planetmaker> sure. But not all qualify as "take over the computer remotely"
16:31:59 <Ammler> andythenorth: you like how chrome does it?
16:32:07 <andythenorth> Ammler: I have no idea
16:32:10 <andythenorth> I have chrome
16:32:18 <andythenorth> I don't notice it doing anything
16:34:47 <Ammler> might be a good way for a single user system
16:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> we should separate the game engine from the gui, and in multiplayer synchronize it like newgrfs
16:40:36 <Ammler> what I hate on chrome was that it tells me how to browse the internet, I need to be able to rule that myself, so chrome survived around 5 mins on my pc
16:41:11 * andythenorth didn't notice
16:41:16 <andythenorth> chrome is my minor browser
16:41:34 <andythenorth> it's basically a GUI client for google docs and twitter
16:41:38 <andythenorth> I don't browse with it
16:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (that may also facilitate ingame update)
16:41:43 <Ammler> ah ok
16:42:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is it realistic to separate game and gui?
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16:43:02 <Ammler> well, openttd would also need to be able to connect with different versions
16:43:38 <Alberth> with separation you only have one game engine :)
16:43:41 <Ammler> else you will have a big mess with autoupdate and multiplayer
16:43:58 <supermop> which is your major browser?
16:44:48 <andythenorth> supermop: safari, which is stupid
16:44:58 <andythenorth> it memory leaks nearly as bad as ff
16:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: no, why? you'll have multiple game engines in downloaded_content, and if none of those matches the server you are joining, you download another
16:45:31 <supermop> i use opera, but i think just out of iconoclasm
16:45:36 <openot> FIRS looks like fun!
16:45:50 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: well, what would be the engine? Current openttd binary?
16:46:11 <Ammler> so you need to download 3MB almost everytime you join a server
16:46:30 <Ammler> because it most probably has a nother version
16:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not seeing the problem
16:48:36 <Eddi|zuHause> might want to introduce some kind of delta to the latest stable
16:49:43 <Ammler> there would still be something like a "latest stable"?
16:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause> sure
16:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> if only to mark a reference point for the deltas
16:52:24 <Alberth> my package manager computes and downloads binary deltas all by itself already
16:52:36 <Ammler> I disabled that here
16:53:06 <Ammler> I think, it is faster to download teh whole package than applying deltas ;-)
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16:54:28 <Ammler> there should be something like a min-size for delta packages
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17:02:26 <Ammler> majonaise
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17:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "schranke"
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17:24:14 <Kogut> Ooo, somebody changed graphs, now it it is possible to notice all colours
17:25:11 <Kogut> now we only need extending coverage to 100 years
17:31:40 <Rubidium> Ammler: it can't be the current binary; you really won't fancy a S390 binary on your x86 machine
17:32:13 <Rubidium> the only solution I see is using some sort of intermediate language for the core
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17:59:09 <Alberth> jvm!
18:02:39 <peter1138> openttd in java?
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18:19:40 <appe> bill o rielly is a got damn terrorist.
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19:00:04 <andythenorth> he
19:00:09 <andythenorth> giant airports
19:00:17 <supermop_> how giant?
19:00:25 <andythenorth> in the ottd dev forum
19:00:28 <andythenorth> *big*
19:00:50 <supermop_> just got back from lunch on a different computer, coworker is hogging the desk with the imac
19:00:58 <supermop_> ok ill check it
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19:01:17 <b_jonas> link?
19:02:24 <b_jonas> ah:
19:04:29 <supermop_> hmm not how i'd lay them out but impressive
19:08:29 <b_jonas> the circle one seems unrealistic. how do people and cargo get there?
19:09:26 <Alberth> by underground metro
19:09:39 <b_jonas> Alberth: no way. people want to park there.
19:10:13 <Alberth> but.. they don't even park in city centers
19:11:26 <b_jonas> they do, here :-)
19:14:13 <supermop_> park on the tarmac
19:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how do we want to handle company-specific livery?
19:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: e.g. take the E94, after 1950, there are 3 different liveries to choose from: DB (green, black wheels), DR (green, red wheels) and ÖBB (red, black wheels)
19:22:51 <planetmaker> I assume a simple recolour won't do for the many different companies?
19:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd assume separate images
19:23:08 <planetmaker> as the pattern would have to differ
19:23:32 <planetmaker> so, ^^ that's with the different patterns the colouring would have to have the only option
19:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but i need some way to technically distinguish that for different parameter settings
19:24:03 <planetmaker> uhm... how do you mean?
19:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the varaction2 check
19:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> for when someone has "mix", "core DB", "core ALL" or stuff selected
19:25:30 <planetmaker> what livery would an engine get if "core all" is selected and it could have DB or DR livery concurrently?
19:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> for example
19:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause> random?
19:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> DB trumps all?
19:26:13 <planetmaker> livery refit?
19:26:29 <planetmaker> with initial random selection?
19:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> livery refit is tricky for engines
19:26:48 <planetmaker> yes... :S
19:26:53 <planetmaker> then random
19:27:04 <planetmaker> otherwise one could have selected a branch
19:28:16 <planetmaker> alternatively one could introduce yet another parameter. But I'm not sure I'd like that
19:28:33 <planetmaker> like "preferred livery"
19:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. so in the tracking table we write like "epoch3:(DB:img1,DR:img2,ÖBB:img3)", and depending on parameter we make different switches
19:29:08 <planetmaker> sounds like the way to go
19:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i can work with that...
19:30:54 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: how are livery changes not by epoch but by date handled?
19:31:17 <planetmaker> i.e. the re-colouring of IR to IC or so
19:31:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: currently i have put date_of_last_service, but we could introduce a parameter for "recolour liveries: {immediately, on service, on purchase}
19:31:36 <planetmaker> or do we just move that to epoch changes?
19:32:03 <planetmaker> ah. yes, good. date_of_last_service is excellent
19:32:22 <planetmaker> more parameters there are for later to keep people happy then
19:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it just won't be possible to recolour anything before 1920
19:33:28 <planetmaker> and far in the future
19:33:41 <planetmaker> I thought of adding a new var which counts from 0
19:33:58 <planetmaker> as this 1920 base kinda sucks in this respect
19:34:49 <planetmaker> I guess I should actually write that patch :-P
19:34:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't found any reason yet why before 1920 is needed, but go ahead :)
19:35:07 <planetmaker> prussia, saxony or so?
19:35:31 <planetmaker> but it also fails for games which last long
19:35:51 <planetmaker> though this concept to automatically change on service for this time interval is also ok. indeed
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19:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as nml can transparently detect by context, whether date() macros have to expand to 1920-based or 0-based, i'm fine with it
19:36:58 <planetmaker> not sure they can
19:37:01 <planetmaker> but possibly
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19:39:55 <beboj_> hi
19:40:05 <beboj_> is it possible to play via android
19:40:10 <beboj_> multiplayer
19:40:11 <beboj_> ?
19:40:23 <Alberth> nope, not even single player
19:40:31 <beboj_> single is possible
19:40:41 <beboj_> pelya ported it
19:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> beboj_: that port has not been done by us, so we don't know
19:41:06 <Alberth> maybe you should ask pelya
19:41:13 <beboj_> kk
19:41:58 <b_jonas> how large a display do you have for your android device?
19:42:04 <beboj_> 7"
19:42:11 <beboj_> its very nice
19:45:45 <PeanutHorst> ... damn, i read that in the wrong order
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19:54:26 <Alberth> PeanutHorst: chats usually don't top-post :)
19:55:20 <Terkhen> hmmm... those airports are really huge
19:58:00 <Eddi|zuHause> realistic airports would be 256 tiles
19:58:11 <Terkhen> :P
19:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> damn... forgot to put "" around it... i do that always...
20:04:16 <andythenorth> hmm
20:04:28 <andythenorth> truck set - is that even on enough wish lists?
20:04:33 <andythenorth> or is it kind of done?
20:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: nobody has sensible truck sets... eGRVTS is weird, GermanRV is "under development" for years, ...
20:05:42 <supermop_> long trucks are too long
20:05:46 <andythenorth> why is egrvts weird?
20:05:53 <supermop_> i like it
20:06:07 <andythenorth> I ask so I can avoid 'weird'
20:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for example it doesn't allow me to turn on "only horse-drawn vehicles" or "only trucks"
20:06:28 <andythenorth> v2 might
20:06:33 <andythenorth> did you request it? :)
20:06:38 <supermop_> id prefer a few tweaks though - not a fan of every late game tram being 4 cars long and 2 floors
20:06:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i really haven'T actually played with it more than 2 years :)
20:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm pretty sure i did request it :p
20:07:04 <andythenorth> I use it in nearly every game
20:07:04 <supermop_> didn't 404 drawn new busses for it?
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20:07:16 <andythenorth> but because it's 'generic', it does feel 'generic'
20:07:35 <andythenorth> can't complain about that, it's what it says on the box :P
20:07:43 <supermop_> i like the concept of 2-3 types of vehicle in each generation
20:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd much rather prefer a "european truck set" based on real trucks
20:07:53 <supermop_> i think that is something to strive for
20:10:23 <andythenorth> world trucks is quite easy
20:10:56 <andythenorth> I can figure out how to do world trucks, and allow segmentation into regions to suit the current game
20:11:04 <supermop_> didn't you start a truck set a couple years ago?
20:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the "progress" on this page doesn't look promising at all:
20:11:09 <andythenorth> I have the name :P
20:11:19 <andythenorth> what I can't figure out is how to make building trucks a good experience
20:11:34 <andythenorth> basically building RVs can suck. Building trains does not
20:11:37 <supermop_> i think 2cc set is aiming to have regions
20:11:52 <supermop_> id say dont over thing it, keep it simple
20:12:15 <supermop_> no need to include every american semi release in 2008, etc
20:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause> when basing on real trucks, you'll have lots of overlapping models with similar timeframe and similar stats
20:12:44 <PeanutHorst> i wish i could model in blender
20:12:46 <supermop_> stick to the egrvts model, for each era and region a few distinct types
20:12:54 <PeanutHorst> i havi have many ideas for train negrfs
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20:13:18 <supermop_> if scania and mercedes made two models essentially the same, pick the better looking one
20:13:33 <Kogut> eGRVTS is way too blury/cartoonish/ugly/unrealistic/generic/strange
20:13:38 <andythenorth> trucks are remarkably easy
20:13:52 <andythenorth> most european cabover trucks will look identical at ttd scale
20:13:57 <supermop_> i like the cartoonish part - doesnt distract me from the train
20:14:05 <andythenorth> most US conventional trucks will look identical at ttd scale
20:14:10 <supermop_> yep
20:14:15 <andythenorth> australia uses european and us trucks
20:14:21 <andythenorth> as does south america and africa
20:14:26 <TWerkhoven[l]> and roadtrains
20:14:26 <Kogut> I really like german vehicles
20:14:38 <supermop_> japanese trucks are essentially the same but better decorated?
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20:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be difference in development in western and eastern europe
20:15:00 <supermop_> just have a couple cab types in each generation
20:15:21 <andythenorth> for US trucks, the outline hasn't changed since about 1950
20:15:39 <supermop_> well they are more streamlined - sleeper cabs etc
20:15:45 <andythenorth> a little yes
20:15:45 <supermop_> but at tt scale
20:15:49 <andythenorth> but at tt scale...
20:15:52 <supermop_> not sure if it shows
20:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i was once standing and a traffic light, and thought "WTF, japan?" when looking at the truck behind me, until i realized that it was mirrored and said "PL" and not "JP" :p
20:16:37 <supermop_> we do have flush nosed cabs though
20:17:02 <PeanutHorst> i'll flush YOUR nose
20:17:02 <supermop_> just allow lots of vanity running lights on us cabs
20:17:15 <andythenorth> flush nosed?
20:17:36 <supermop_> flat, like a european or japanese truck
20:17:48 <andythenorth> cabover
20:17:57 <supermop_> and volvo makes non flat cabs that they sell in the US
20:18:01 <andythenorth> we have conventionals in europe
20:18:13 <andythenorth> volvo took over white and freightliner iirc
20:18:15 <supermop_> volvo being quite popular here with drivers
20:18:29 <supermop_> freightliner is still a brand
20:18:44 <supermop_> US drivers typically own their cabs
20:18:50 <andythenorth> russian trucks
20:18:51 <supermop_> companies own the trailers
20:19:42 <supermop_> so US style cabs could have random color?
20:21:00 <andythenorth> 2CC I would think
20:22:06 <supermop_> but no need to include different brands
20:22:32 <andythenorth> I'll do them like HEQS - made up names
20:22:32 <andythenorth>
20:22:38 <andythenorth> ^ my favourite ad
20:22:41 <supermop_> also include those tiny cabs they use around ports for moving trailers and containers
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20:30:17 <supermop_> there should be an industry set comprising pickles, tea, coffee, fish beer, liquor, chocolate,
20:30:39 <supermop_> i guess realistically you'd need hemp, opium, and tobacco in there too
20:30:56 <supermop_> but id be happy to do without those in tt land
20:31:25 <supermop_> salt as a raw material
20:31:42 <andythenorth> supermop:,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&biw=1132&bih=684&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi
20:32:28 <supermop_> yeah: great for transfers, piglets, etc
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20:47:51 <Terkhen> good night
20:57:07 <andythenorth> good night
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21:04:07 <Kogut> good night
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21:25:07 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone fluent in python-magic? i need a curried version of a function like f(a,b): return a+b. so i can do g=f(a); h=g(b)
21:27:41 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: and?
21:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "please tell me how to do it"?
21:28:27 <b_jonas> you just write def f(a): \n\tdef g(b):\n\t\treturn a+b\n\treturn g\n
21:30:18 <b_jonas> there's also a shortcut for simpler cases: def f(a): \n\treturn lambda b: a+b
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21:31:06 <b_jonas> you want to create this python function f from python code, (as opposed to from C code), right?
21:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> hmm...
21:34:58 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: that, but I personally find the lambda-based solution clearer
21:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: like "g = lambda b: f(a,b)"?
21:36:15 <valhallasw> yes
21:36:47 <valhallasw> that has a disadvantage though...
21:36:58 <valhallasw> the value of a is retrieved at time of execution
21:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah
21:37:12 <valhallasw> so maybe partial /is/ clearer
21:37:16 <__ln__> b_jonas: actually, 4 spaces rather than a tab is the preferred indentation for python.
21:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: you know a way to teach kate to do 4-spaces indentation in .py files, and tab in all other files?
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21:44:46 <b_jonas> __ln__: okay
21:46:24 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: unfortunately not.
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22:47:21 <frosch123> night
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23:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause>
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23:59:58 <Wolf01> 'night