IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-07
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00:00:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's very fair to compare parties with their equivalent 90 years ago
00:00:47 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> but afaik a small part of schleswig was returned to denmark in that election <--- Actually Germany stole land north of Schleswig and that land was returned because it people voted for Denmark
00:01:15 <Bjarni> it was (and is) so full of Danes that they didn't want to campaign for Germany there. It would be Danish nomatter what
00:02:49 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's very fair to compare parties with their equivalent 90 years ago <--- not true. The party in question still wants to remove the king
00:03:14 <Bjarni> or in absence of a king, the queen
00:06:17 <Bjarni> Europe in the years between WW1 and WW2 (1915-1939) <--- the internet is not the most trustworthy source of historical facts
00:06:44 <Bjarni> WW1 ended on the 11/11 at 11 O'clock in 1918
00:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "What is white, long, lives in Himalaya and speaks italian?"
00:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "what does an unemployed physicist say to one who has a job?"
00:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> "cola and big mac please"
01:49:48 <z-MaTRiX> clear;e=eval\ ;p=printf\ ;x="$e$p\$";u=USER;n=NAME;r=$(stty -g);stty raw -echo;read -sn1 -p \[$($x$u)@$(${x}HOST$n):~\]$\ ;while read -n1 a;do $p \\$($p '%03o' $(($($p'%d' "'"$($p'%c' "$a")"")-1)));sleep .$(($RANDOM*2));done< <($p\%q 'Uif!Nbusjy!ibt!zpv!'"$($p'%s' "$(grep $($x$u$n) /etc/passwd |awk -F: '{print $5}')" | while read -n1 y;do $p'%c' "$($p\\$($p'%03o' $(($($p'%d' "'$($p'%c' "$y")")+1))))";done;)"'///');stty "$r";$p\\n
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05:22:17 <Azdin> I used to recall there being a way to list servers in OpenTTD
05:24:34 <Elukka> click multiplayer on the main menu, on top of that there's a dropdown menu, pick internet (not lan)
05:24:52 <Elukka> then press find server
05:25:07 <Elukka> which version do you have?
05:25:34 <Elukka> hmm. not hugely ancient
05:29:24 <Azdin> Is there a new-ish openttd game I can connect to?
05:45:12 <Elukka> there's a huge amount of servers up
05:45:26 <Elukka> you should still see them even if you have the wrong version
05:46:52 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: you there?
05:49:06 <Elukka> i was going to draw the door open version of the goods car but it occurred to me i have no idea what the floor material is so i don't know what color to make it
05:50:01 <Elukka> i also assume only / and \ versions are needed
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06:14:16 <Azdin> Nah, the list isn't showing up at all
06:23:28 <peter1138> it's working for me
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07:11:07 <Elukka> a 3 lu wagon sure looks weird on the diagonals..
07:12:56 <Elukka> the end is longer than the side
07:37:54 <Kogut> @Terkhen Is it trunkable to increase maximum size of AI log? There are AI crashes with incomplete reports as window was too small
07:38:33 <Terkhen> I have never worked with AI at all, besides making some changes with a lot of help :P
07:38:58 <Kogut> Main problem is that AI log is limited to 80 lines
07:39:09 <Terkhen> the patch does not look wrong to me, but you should ask someone else or upload to flyspray
07:40:20 <Kogut> @Yexo Is it trunkable to increase maximum size of AI log? There are AI crashes with incomplete reports as window was too small - patch is trivial ( http://pastebin.com/R31eirsR )
07:49:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23009 /trunk/src/ (fontcache.cpp fontcache.h gfx.cpp): -Change: Improve appearance of antialiased text with shadow.
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07:50:58 <planetmaker> Kogut: I think the issue tracker is a good place and easier to find than IRC log :-)
07:51:21 <Kogut> well, I thought he is online
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07:51:57 <planetmaker> the nick is online 24/7. He personally certainly not ;-)
07:53:38 <V453000> how do you know he isnt :P
07:54:05 <planetmaker> V453000: I could look whether he's attached to our bouncer ;-)
07:56:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23010 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Add [FS#4797]: Support company colour for the airports' jetways (zeroeight)
07:58:22 <planetmaker> for adding it to the bug tracker. :-)
07:59:58 <norbert79> haven't been on tt-forums, are spammers still an issue? :)
08:00:16 <norbert79> ...and I got that already answered... Found one already
08:00:25 <norbert79> Kogut: Yeah, just seen it...
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08:11:37 <norbert79> Kogut: Good question... Besides, user might go through settings first, instead of complaining...
08:12:27 <Elukka> a pretty new locomotive, for a change
08:12:40 <norbert79> Elukka: You own one of these? :)))
08:15:56 <Elukka> i think most modern locomotives look like nondescript boxes
08:17:08 <norbert79> Well, there is the Flirt, there is the ICE...
08:17:17 <norbert79> won't call them as 'boxes'
08:17:39 <Elukka> technically, they're multiple units and thus don't have a locomotive :P
08:17:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23011 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4791]: When the last used server is deleted from the list also clear the last used server if it is the same (monoid)
08:18:26 <norbert79> Elukka: You see these also often in Hungary too
08:18:48 <Elukka> yeah we've got a bunch
08:20:07 <norbert79> Bo-2-2-2-Bo means 2 wheels besides each other or 1-1 each side?
08:23:54 <norbert79> Elukka: I thought you are familiar with this, since you are such a huge train fan... :)
08:24:16 <Elukka> well, i'm not hugely knowledgeable
08:25:09 <peter1138> O-O o-o o-o o-o O-O
08:25:46 <norbert79> I thought 2 would mean oo-oo
08:26:33 <b_jonas> all those chemistry symbols
08:26:40 <Markk> hm, wheels between the bogies?
08:27:12 <norbert79> and I-O-I would be a Tie Fighter
08:27:54 <peter1138> norbert79, no point in listing wheels on either side of the vehicle
08:28:00 <peter1138> it's unlikely to be different
08:28:14 <norbert79> peter1138: Understand, thank you
08:28:21 <peter1138> of course, there's the Whyte system which does ;p
08:28:34 <norbert79> peter1138: Don't make me confused... :)
08:29:27 <norbert79> Well, in my childhood locomotives were just 1-1
08:29:56 <b_jonas> 4-6-2 sounds like either the _name_ of a locomotive, or a football tactics
08:30:17 <norbert79> b_jonas: Won't be football (soccer), since that would mean 12 players :)
08:30:33 <b_jonas> sure, it just sounds like
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08:30:40 <b_jonas> maybe some related game
08:30:52 <peter1138> difficult to have an odd number of wheels...
08:30:54 <planetmaker> b_jonas: if you play football with 4-6-2 tactic you're not playing football ;-)
08:31:14 <norbert79> Even for Baseball that would be too much
08:31:15 <peter1138> 2-1 <- 2cv with a wheel off
08:31:17 <b_jonas> I know, it has to sum to 10 in football
08:31:27 <planetmaker> or you bribed the referee
08:32:04 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, 22 would been in 1990 possible, when DDR and BDR got merged... :))
08:32:52 <Elukka> whyte notation is the only wheel arrangement thing i can make sense of
08:33:25 <norbert79> it's shorter, but not always very informative
08:33:38 <norbert79> I prefer something like the Bo-2-2-2-Bo like
08:33:50 <norbert79> Type included, while numbers represent regular wheels
08:34:47 <peter1138> whyte is okay for steam
08:35:45 <peter1138> the driving wheels are implied, which is no use for the wheel arrangement on diesels & electrics
08:37:09 <b_jonas> you sound like the adults in the Little Prince with all these numbers: “I've seen a 2-6-0.” “How beautiful!”
08:37:09 <peter1138> Elukka, it's a simple substitution... A=1, B=2, etc ;)
08:39:06 <peter1138> i'm looking at locomotive wheel arrangements
08:39:10 <peter1138> instead of working :p
08:39:37 <norbert79> peter1138: It's a Friday...
08:39:47 <norbert79> peter1138: At least you have an excuse then
09:08:29 <appe> jazz tip of the day: abbey lincoln
09:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> [07.10.2011 07:50] <Elukka> i also assume only / and \ versions are needed <-- no, the train may be longer than the platform, so all views might be needed
09:11:43 <Elukka> any idea if it should have a brown or grey floor?
09:15:12 <Eddi|zuHause> rather make it grey
09:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> should make for better contrast
09:15:42 <Elukka> well it'll be more visible that way
09:18:47 <norbert79> (The difference of plain animated GIF's based on recording and these are, that only just a small portion of the actual animation moves, making it partly still-life, and moving)
09:21:06 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Wanted to share this with someone... And you were active :)
09:21:24 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: and you are at home all the time :P
09:26:13 <peter1138> so temporal photoshops...
09:28:50 <norbert79> peter1138: Well, basically animated GIF's, but just different
09:29:59 <Kogut> Well, screenshots on openttd mainpage are not very interesting
09:30:24 <Kogut> what about openttdcoop/newgrf stuff
09:30:37 <norbert79> Kogut: There is a screenshot page at main site, I was merely thinking about placing one such there
09:30:54 <norbert79> Kogut: Oh, sorry, you are on a different topic
09:32:23 <planetmaker> what about that, Kogut?
09:33:23 <norbert79> looks nice imo, I like this new concept
09:38:19 <Eddi|zuHause> for years i have asked to change that image
09:38:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and the text is stupid
09:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and a blatant lie
09:39:00 <Eddi|zuHause> because the screenshot is actually from before 0.5
09:39:23 <planetmaker> so, any suggestions for a replacement?
09:39:33 <norbert79> planetmaker: Why not making a contest?
09:39:37 <norbert79> planetmaker: in the forums...
09:39:47 <norbert79> planetmaker: 1.1.3 has no screenshots at all
09:40:03 <Kogut> or reuse somrthing from title competition
09:40:12 <Kogut> everything will be better
09:40:22 <planetmaker> we only go by the x in the 1.x.y versioning scheme
09:40:22 <Kogut> including AI constructed railways
09:40:23 <norbert79> Only requirement would be using either OpenGFX or Original graphics and no NewGRFs
09:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what speaks against making that text just read "user screenshots"?
09:41:40 <norbert79> Why not telling: Screenshots?
09:41:48 <norbert79> Basically if you reuse title competition shots
09:41:53 <norbert79> that's still fro the game
09:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> why restrict to title competition?
09:42:36 <norbert79> Didn't, but it's the easiest
09:42:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes no sense
09:42:49 <norbert79> You already got the screenshots from them
09:43:18 <planetmaker> why easy? One could argue to take a vanilla OpenTTD there, but I'm not entirely sure it should be a requirement. It's at least not for the screenshots behind that 'main' image
09:43:57 <norbert79> planetmaker: Wasn't trying to be strict or limiting, jsut saying, that the time spent on them would be much shorter if you would use existing resources
09:44:51 <norbert79> And I also uploaded some shots on my Deviantart page too
09:45:07 <norbert79> I would be happy sending those to the collection, well, not every each of it
09:45:22 <planetmaker> well. There's zillion screenshots in zillions*100 places
09:45:31 <norbert79> plantain: Sure, that's true
09:45:31 <planetmaker> It's about having a good selection
09:45:56 <planetmaker> What's there now is mostly screenshots which people send to us via e-mail from time to time
09:46:15 <planetmaker> And last time it was updated was last December when I went through that years worth of screenshot e-mails
09:46:21 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, you can still do similar, like with the Title competition
09:46:46 <norbert79> and leave the voting on the registered users of tt-forums
09:46:47 <planetmaker> yes. Or you do that competition Like 10 best from the 1.1.x series :-)
09:47:06 <planetmaker> I'll be happy to put them there then
09:47:29 <norbert79> There is still the option leaving the voting up to the community
09:47:33 <planetmaker> the number is negotiable
09:47:46 <planetmaker> yes, then go, organize that competition and that vote :-)
09:48:12 <norbert79> well, will do that, after I have taken care of my 2 children and my wife this evening, will do that in 5 minutes ;-)
09:48:26 <norbert79> You are the master of the Forums, not me :)
09:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still not sure what you need a vote for
09:49:07 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: People send in pictures, then we get a list, and people can vote on their favorites, at the end you will have the first 10 which will be then put into the screenshot folder
09:49:08 <planetmaker> it should also show different facettes of the game
09:49:37 <norbert79> You can still overrule the end-result...
09:49:39 <planetmaker> a vote might just get a list of the nicest 10 shots of stations in a more or less similar style
09:49:56 <planetmaker> an interesting entry might also be to show parts of the GUI (as the nightly screenshot I prepared back then)
09:50:15 <norbert79> Well, you cannot find this out, until you try...
09:50:20 <planetmaker> it's about showing the game and its bredth of options. Not (only) about the
09:50:24 <Kogut> maybe categories: "realistic", junctions, large stations, ais
09:50:29 <norbert79> Might be, that you won't be the only one wanting to show it
09:50:32 <planetmaker> "best building" (or realistic)
09:51:56 <Kogut> interface, realistic, effective, newgrf overdose, ships, landscape
09:52:07 <norbert79> well, there are only 2 choices: either the admins cherry pick all they want, or they leave this on the community, and let them upload and decide which is good and which isn't...
09:52:12 <planetmaker> such categories might be a good thing indeed
09:53:10 <Kogut> interface, realistic, effective, newgrf overdose, ships, landscape +ais? (I am biased, it may be uniteresting)
09:53:33 <norbert79> realistic = "realistic view" or "realism"
09:53:45 <planetmaker> how would AIs look different from just more companies (unless the UI for them is shown)?
09:53:59 <norbert79> planetmaker: What vehicles/trains they use, building style
09:54:21 <norbert79> Yet because of the variety I doubt it would be interesting
09:54:31 <norbert79> and some can just "cheat" on it
09:54:50 <norbert79> Modifying a layout made by the AI, making it look better, than in reality
09:54:58 <norbert79> just for the screenshot
09:56:10 <norbert79> then we should drop the category of AI...
09:56:30 <Kogut> I may be interesting to show that AI is able to build sth
09:56:44 <norbert79> Kogut: Told you, that can be cheated on...
09:56:52 <planetmaker> hm... so "interface", "landscape", "construction", "traffic" ?
09:57:07 <norbert79> You might would like to add NewGRF
09:57:08 <Kogut> for example - ChooChoo is able to build interesting things
09:59:01 <norbert79> Kogut: Sure, but lets imagine I would like to include a shot of mine, I use ChooChoo, but correct some minor mistakes made by the AI, to make it look better. Then it will be seen by one trying the game for first time, choosing the same AI, and then it shows something different then
09:59:33 <norbert79> On the other hand, a not so advanced AI is being shown on a shot, but since Screenshots age too, it might send a false message
09:59:43 <norbert79> since AI's are also under development all the time
10:00:44 <planetmaker> norbert79: alternatively you can just select a committee to be the judge on the screenshots. ;-)
10:01:15 <norbert79> planetmaker: Sure, but let's just avoid making an AI look bad... :)
10:01:39 <planetmaker> or like: ask for submissions of screenshots. then sort them into categories. And put these categories to vote
10:02:01 <planetmaker> like 1 of this category. top 3 of this. top 2 of this etc
10:02:05 <norbert79> planetmaker: That's also a solution, but I would go for an 'automated' method, where users upload the shots themselves
10:02:10 <planetmaker> might work best to get a broad distribution of things
10:02:28 <planetmaker> yes, thus first gather submissions
10:02:56 <Kogut> I am trying to produce nice ChooChoo screen, without cheating
10:03:08 <planetmaker> I think categorizing them not by the user but by someone with the right categories in mind to get a broad distribution of what's possible might be best :-)
10:03:44 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, that portion is hard to do, easier would be telling: if a picture uploaded does not represent it's category it will be automatically dropped...
10:04:03 <planetmaker> norbert79: that's psychologically worse, though :-)
10:04:21 <norbert79> planetmaker: Sure, but also enforce users choosing the right category :)
10:04:45 <norbert79> and in case of doubt, just use the closest one of the categories
10:04:55 <planetmaker> norbert79: but you could still add a category when screenshots lend itself to a new or split one :-)
10:04:57 <Kogut> fla area, multiple towns and industries
10:05:13 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: And I just got Glenn Miller's collection with me :D
10:05:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (very well known melody in germany :))
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10:07:26 <norbert79> planetmaker: Now I am more thinking about the technical side... Guess plain upload screen with selectable categories would be enough, and each categpry would have it's own folder, but would drop anything, than JPG, GIF or PNG or PCX
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10:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> err... outright reject anything but png!
10:16:28 <planetmaker> norbert79: or a simple forum thread for starters
10:16:37 <planetmaker> and make it png only
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12:09:19 <planetmaker> now. *that's* interesting ;-)
12:09:27 <Terkhen> yeah, it changed my life
12:09:35 <planetmaker> and I should consider to switch my baker
12:09:56 <planetmaker> it just happened the 2nd time I got back too little change
12:10:08 <planetmaker> luckily I noticed in time
12:10:46 <Terkhen> math is complicated when you use it to give someone money :P
12:11:18 <planetmaker> I always wonder how much people who're not good with doing some quick math are ripped off
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12:12:45 <planetmaker> paying 5.43 instead of 4.43 is quite a high margin ;-)
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13:04:31 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: While reading I just received an update to tzdata
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13:27:24 <Terkhen> hmm... is there a NewGRF example of houses producing something different than passengers or mail anywhere? I spotted something fishy in OpenTTD code and I need a test grf
13:28:15 <Terkhen> oooh, the code makes sense now, but I still need the example
13:28:29 <Terkhen> planetmaker: yes, the more it abuses the house production callback the better :P
13:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> how do houses produce tourists?
13:29:53 <Terkhen> using that callback, I suppose
13:30:13 <Terkhen> so ECS houses produce tourists?
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13:31:43 <Terkhen> ok, I'll test with them for now... I'll make the really crazy test NewGRF later
13:32:13 <norbert79> Terkhen: Havent played ECS for a while but I can remember tourists
13:32:26 <norbert79> and one whole building dedicated to it
13:32:30 <Eddi|zuHause> TTRS houses with ECS tourist vector
13:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but i haven't played that combination very much at all
13:33:26 <appe> you guys use excel alot?
13:33:37 <norbert79> appe: I am more using Libreoffice
13:42:54 <norbert79> appe: Yet if that helps, maybe I could help
13:52:32 <appe> i dont think it will, since i fixed it.
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15:44:37 <norbert79> Wish you all a pleasent weekend!
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17:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... date_of_last_service is apparently wrong for wagons/articulated parts
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17:59:32 <planetmaker> Kogut: do you have an AI for me wrt FS#4798 which produces that long crash log?
18:00:44 <planetmaker> (or maybe a savegame with an AI which triggers it)
18:02:38 <planetmaker> is that the on on bananas?
18:04:21 <Kogut> and AIAI crashed with sth similar (during development)
18:04:45 <Kogut> so it is possible that it will crash again
18:05:41 <Kogut> and debug info reported by random person on ttdforums will be useless
18:06:06 <planetmaker> I understand the problem. But I still have no way to reproduce it ;-)
18:06:27 <Kogut> crash ai with more than 80 variables
18:06:57 <planetmaker> and my question was: which is that? Where do I get that?
18:07:28 <Kogut> openttd will print why game crashed, location of crash (very important) and 80 variables (not so important).
18:07:35 <Kogut> AI log is limited to 80 lines
18:07:57 <planetmaker> yes, that's clear.
18:08:13 <Kogut> I can create AI that will declare 80 variables and then perform 0/0 operation
18:08:41 <planetmaker> so... no such AI exists right now?
18:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Kogut: what planetmaker means is: "please give me an AI file that deterministically crashes by doing steps X, Y and Z"
18:10:51 <planetmaker> well, if it doesn't exist... for this case it might then be a bit much work. Though it'd help me see the problem solved
18:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so... need inspiration how to do purchase list sprite selection
18:13:16 <planetmaker> what's the issue there, Eddi|zuHause?
18:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: certain vehicle-specific variables are not available there
18:13:57 <planetmaker> yes... do we need them and why?
18:14:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so i need a separate selection path
18:14:17 <planetmaker> Hm... do we have already the different list view sprites for vehicles?
18:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: currently we have selection by date_of_last_service
18:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> since 10 minutes or so :)
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18:17:53 <Kogut> @Planetmaker - in 1.1.3 this AI crashes without message what happened (as openttd prints over 80 variables)
18:19:12 <Kogut> In real example AI crashed from FindBrakeVan executed from BuildTrain executed from BuildRailwayConnection from ...
18:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Kogut: might that be helped if openttd wrote an ai_crash.log file?
18:21:46 <planetmaker> that would indeed be a very helpful and nice addition
18:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and an ai_debug.log if a (to be introduced) ai_developer setting is introduced?
18:22:01 <planetmaker> that exists already
18:22:05 <planetmaker> ai_developer or so
18:22:30 <Kogut> no, as I have patched version and it will require additional problems with average users reporting ai bugs
18:23:10 <Kogut> yes, sometimes people report crashes of AIs
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18:24:43 <planetmaker> yes. I was asking you: are you interested in writing a patch which will create an ai_crash.log upon an AI crash
18:25:32 <Kogut> I think it is better to keep ai crashlogs in one place
18:25:33 <planetmaker> because a 400 lines screenshot starts to become a pain
18:25:51 <planetmaker> no one wants to take 10 screenshots
18:27:04 <Kogut> maybe proper solution is to move important info (location of crash and what caused it) to bottom?
18:27:59 <Alberth> and you trust average joe to understand what info is important?
18:28:09 <Yexo> that's very hard, since that would mean diving in the squirrel code
18:29:04 <Kogut> but now even uploading entire crashlog is useless (sometimes)
18:29:12 * planetmaker finds it very intuitive to just gather *crash*log and post that
18:29:43 <planetmaker> Kogut: we're not talking about the length. Just about getting the information in a user-friendly way
18:29:58 <planetmaker> as report-likelyness decreases, if the user has to do too much
18:30:00 <Kogut> Is it possible to open crashlogfile on AI crash, in way similar to AILog window?
18:30:40 <Kogut> Is it problem similar to clickable URLs?
18:30:44 <planetmaker> Kogut: I also don't say to remove that from the AI debug window. Just additionally to write that backlog into a file upon crash
18:31:21 <Terkhen> so it can be checked without having to take a screenshot
18:31:27 <planetmaker> as screenshots are a pain for scroll-windows. Getting a file is dead easy
18:31:46 <planetmaker> especially on like 13" screens or so
18:31:57 <Kogut> typical user is unable to put grf in proper folder :)
18:32:21 <planetmaker> Tell the user it is found in his openttd data foler
18:32:27 <planetmaker> people find crash reports
18:32:31 <planetmaker> you gotta trust that
18:32:59 <planetmaker> did you ever read the normal openttd crash window? It also tells you which files to get from where
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18:35:28 <Kogut> I am not sure whatever it will be better
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18:38:16 <Yexo> coding style for brackets near if/else
18:39:06 <Yexo> you could avoid the very long line by adding "uint p1 = ...;" above it, same for p2
18:39:54 <Yexo> we don't have a hard limit on line length, but 350 columns is a bit over the top
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18:49:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23012 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_log.cpp: -Fix [FS#4798]: AI backlog was to short to fully display the backtrace of some AI crashes (Kogut)
18:55:07 <Yexo> @pre size < 15 <- make that and the line following it this; @pre 0 < size <= 15
18:56:16 <Yexo> @note GetRailTracks(tile_in_rectangle) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW || GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NW_SE <- that one is pointless
18:56:34 <Yexo> it's implied by the next line and the @pre a few lines before
18:57:09 <Yexo> (TileIndex tile, int width, StationID waypoint_id); <- now do you want to call it "width" or "size"
18:57:11 <Yexo> pick one and stay with it
18:57:34 <Yexo> @return Whether the rail waypoint(s) <- it's singular
18:58:44 <Kogut> "@return Whether the rail waypoint(s) <- it's singular" - and?
18:59:21 <Yexo> just write "the rail waypoint"
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19:01:13 <Yexo> adding it to ai_changelog.hpp
19:05:22 <planetmaker> salut andythenorth
19:07:09 <Kogut> @Yexo - +#include "../../core/math_func.hpp" is probably useless (leftover of swaps), I will remove it
19:07:51 <Yexo> tab too much on closing bracker after the else
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19:09:38 <Kogut> @Yexo, patch in post updated, maybe now it is OK
19:10:11 <Yexo> you need to update your checkout
19:11:10 <Yexo> if(GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW){ <- should be if (GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW) { spaces between "if" and "(" and ")" and "{"
19:11:34 * andythenorth is cross with BROS again
19:12:35 <andythenorth> one day a mod will tell me to stop bullying them :P
19:13:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I gave up. They're back to square one as of two years ago
19:13:42 <andythenorth> but I have to live in this country and witness the efforts of thousands of these half-wits
19:13:57 <andythenorth> BROS people are symptomatic of (some) technical British people
19:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with incompetent people: they're in the vast majority
19:14:56 <andythenorth> but the europeans on this forum are a lot less dumb
19:15:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you haven't seen the german forum :p
19:15:33 <planetmaker> nah. There's just a significant amount more continental than islanders
19:15:33 <Kogut> maybe on this forum we have typical sample of brits
19:15:43 <andythenorth> the non-native-english speakers here are self-filtered
19:15:52 <andythenorth> they're smart enough to converse at high level in english :P
19:16:11 <planetmaker> and we have sufficient positive examples. The ratio is the same ;-)
19:16:18 <planetmaker> just absolut numbers of course not
19:16:27 <andythenorth> so idiocy in engineering is not limited to the uk?
19:16:44 <andythenorth> another myth punctured :P
19:16:47 <michi_cc> The not-so-smart people remain at tt-ms :p
19:17:27 <andythenorth> which country is the best at engineering?
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19:17:50 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Belugas
19:18:04 <MNIM> hey, if you know the answer, why do you ask the question?
19:18:21 <Prof_Frink> MNIM: Hydro are German. This alone excludes them.
19:19:14 <Prof_Frink> People you don't want to be thinking about when you're in an aeroplane.
19:19:49 <MNIM> ...i fail to see the link between engineering, hydros, customers and airplanes.
19:20:10 <Prof_Frink> Hydro are an aero engineering company.
19:20:22 <Prof_Frink> We do work for them.
19:22:48 <Kogut> @Yexo - after battle with tortoiseSVN merger I created new version of patch
19:23:38 <Kogut> @andythenorth - why India
19:26:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: today I heard it is called 'bike shedding'. It is the fact that time spent on items is inverse proportional to its importance
19:26:14 <weirdy> I was just wondering, is there any specific reason why there is no feature akin to TTDp's Enhanced tunnel entrances?
19:26:44 <planetmaker> you didn't write a patch for it
19:27:03 <Alberth> how are they enhanced?
19:27:11 <planetmaker> a patch which solves all the rough edges of that feature
19:27:25 <Alberth> that would be enhanced indeed :p
19:27:28 <planetmaker> Alberth: allowing to build rail on a tunnel entrance
19:27:40 <andythenorth> Alberth awesome thanks
19:27:53 <andythenorth> I can use that as business buzzword crap next week :P
19:28:00 <Alberth> planetmaker: I suspected as much :)
19:28:03 <andythenorth> I shall use that at work :)
19:28:07 <Kogut> so it will look ridiculous with standard graphics
19:28:08 <weirdy> What happened to the custom bridgeheads patch too?
19:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> enhanced tunnels is closely related to custom bridgeheads
19:28:23 <Kogut> pathfinder problems AFAIK
19:28:38 <planetmaker> nice Alberth. Now I learnt a new phrase / word :-)
19:29:04 <Alberth> weirdy: we like the enhanced tunnels, but only if sufficiently generalized (eg stations/roads/etc on tunnel entrances too)
19:29:53 <weirdy> ah, that would complicate things I can imagine
19:30:23 <Alberth> which is probably why it is not in OpenTTD
19:30:42 <weirdy> So if I want it in I'll need to write a personal patch?
19:30:45 <andythenorth> someone showed that the enhanced tunnels have a horrible edge case
19:30:49 <andythenorth> can't remember it
19:31:20 <Alberth> weirdy: you are free to publish it if you want :)
19:31:27 * weirdy gets back to building moar bridges
19:32:28 <andythenorth> what do I call slopes like 4 and 8 in tileh.png?
19:32:40 <planetmaker> weirdy: patches can readily be published. We accept good solutions gladly
19:32:49 <andythenorth> anyway, I would like tunnels that can start / end on those type of tiles
19:33:14 <Kogut> and underground constructions!
19:33:25 <andythenorth> and signals everywhere!
19:34:40 <weirdy> So if I made a patch for basic enhanced tunnels that didn't unclude every type of tile under the sun, it may still be added to the trunk if the patch was up to scratch?
19:36:15 <Alberth> assuming you are not going to support the void tile-type, you will always have a subset of tile types supported :p
19:36:31 <Kogut> @Yexo - can you check it?
19:38:58 <weirdy> Now I just need to learn how to make a patch...
19:40:00 <Alberth> theoretically, you can write a patch-file, although in practice, changing the source code and let the VCS generate a diff is easier.
19:40:46 <Kogut> so, is it possible to commit it to trunk?
19:41:54 <michi_cc> Why am I even arguing with mb?
19:42:16 <Yexo> Kogut: yes, after I've tested it. which I'm not going to do right now
19:42:49 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: common newbie mistake :p
19:42:58 <Kogut> OK, (I tested it with AI but maybe I missed sth)
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19:58:28 <andythenorth> michi_cc: arguing with mb is a gravitational thing
19:58:40 <andythenorth> you can try and fight it, but it's inevitable
20:00:11 <Rubidium> michi_cc: because you like arguing in German?
20:01:47 <andythenorth> are german arguments relatively precise? Or do they suffer word collision + meaning ambiguity like english arguments?
20:01:56 <andythenorth> meaning ambiguity is more common
20:02:22 <andythenorth> in tests, 46% of english arguments can be distilled down to pissy semantics
20:04:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: word collision and meaning ambiguity are possibly rarer than in english, but some people have the amazing ability to twist your words around to mean the complete opposite :p
20:04:53 <michi_cc> German arguments might be more precise, but as people like selective reading and deliberate misunderstanding too much, in the end there's probably no difference.
20:05:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, MB has mastered both these skills very well :)
20:12:35 <andythenorth> I don't believe he does it deliberately
20:12:44 <andythenorth> I can't believe he is just trolling people :)
20:15:56 <supermop_> why does he have such influence? no disrespect intended - just wondering...
20:15:57 <frosch123> i started searching for mental handicaps which fit his symptoms, but did not succeed so far
20:16:42 <frosch123> i don't think he is trolling intetionally, he really believes what he says
20:16:56 <andythenorth> supermop_: he's actually quite good at keeping some things in line
20:17:26 <andythenorth> he may just be on the spectrum. he's likely not the only one around here...
20:18:16 <supermop_> hmm. is Josef not involved with anything anymore?
20:18:43 <frosch123> supermop_: mb does not have any influence
20:18:48 <frosch123> at least not that i noticed
20:18:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there's no one in this channel who blatantly accuses others of things they don't do while arguing the next minute he didn't say so
20:19:11 <frosch123> josef left in 2007 (or 2008?)
20:19:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: ECS labels
20:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> he's one of those guys who have been around for a very long time, and had significant influence while the community was <10 people
20:19:37 <andythenorth> plus I listen to him when he happens to be right
20:19:50 <andythenorth> of course, that's for *my* definition of right :P
20:22:16 <frosch123> well, he learned nfo by trial and error. so over the years he learned a lot about ttdp due to it working along the lines "try it, it might work". but today there are enough people who can read sourcecode and just tell you what is happening, without much trying
20:22:43 <frosch123> now his knowledge is at best half-baked and wrong in the details
20:24:11 <supermop_> i guess i missed out on a lot of history by going straight from playing tto to 0.6.x
20:24:28 <PeanutHorst> you also missed a lot of insanity
20:24:28 <planetmaker> supermop_: yes, that's when 2/3 of that history was already written ;-)
20:24:32 <PeanutHorst> \dodged a bullet, so to speak
20:24:43 <planetmaker> and that's where that "influence" comes from
20:24:47 <supermop_> i still find the trenches on the monorail tracks to be foreign
20:25:19 <andythenorth> supermop_: they make for *stupid* road crossings :P
20:25:23 <andythenorth> I tried to fix them
20:25:37 <supermop_> in tto monorail could not cross road
20:25:43 <planetmaker> that's a difficult thing :-)
20:25:52 <planetmaker> supermop_: you can re-define monorail and disallow it ;-)
20:25:53 <supermop_> did have a nice beam bridge though
20:26:20 <supermop_> don't think its not on my list (of ideas i barely understand how to execute)
20:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: start with something easy: a grf that forbids monorail on road crossings
20:27:19 <supermop_> I would love an alweg style monorail, available in the 60s with relatively slow trains
20:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that's something along the lines of 3-5 loc
20:28:10 <supermop_> ive even drawn graphics for a hitachi train similar to the Tama monorail
20:28:55 <supermop_> the trench does have the benefit of being able to convincingly have platforms at the same height as for maglev and steel rail
20:29:06 <frosch123> hmm, in 10 months newgrf turn 10, which is also about when ttdp could be considered dead for 5 years
20:29:44 <supermop_> but i want to code other things first
20:29:52 <supermop_> and it takes me a long time
20:38:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: 5 years :O
20:39:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: depends when you consider it like that. i decided the use the point where patchman effectively left
20:41:08 <andythenorth> when I started playing this game, it seemed patch was default :)
20:42:57 <frosch123> well, when i joined newgrf specs were basically implemented in ottd, i only did some polishing
20:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause> when i joined, newgrf support in openttd was still seriously lacking
20:44:47 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. neither elrails nor stations worked
20:45:20 <frosch123> august 2002: first newgrf feature; july 2007: second last commit of patchman; april 2008: release of ottd 0.6.0 basically catching up with newgrf; today is october 2011
20:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause> oh and the buggy PBS were in trunk, blocking a release
20:46:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's when it started playing ottd, because i thought it was an update to ttdp :p
20:47:13 * andythenorth couldn't play ttdp anyway due to mac issues
20:47:22 <planetmaker> but... yes, I looked around that time at it as I didn't want to go through the pain to run ttdp through wine or dosbox
20:47:23 <peter1138> i remember when newstations was my massive uncommitted patch...
20:48:01 <planetmaker> I was with 0.4.8 a bit disappointed though... 0.5.3 was much better :-)
20:48:13 * frosch123 played ttdp 2.0 for about a year, then switched to ottd 0.4.0.1 when looking for a new version of ttdp
20:48:15 <TWerkhoven> [21:46:08] <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's when it started playing ottd, because i thought it was an update to ttdp :p <-- sounds familiar actually
20:48:58 <Elukka> when i started playing i remember ttdp was the one that got new features first
20:49:04 <Elukka> still preferred ottd for various reasons
20:49:19 <peter1138> --- station_cmd.c (revision 3070)
20:49:23 <peter1138> newstations1.diff ;)
20:49:55 <andythenorth> peter1138 remember when your massive uncommitted roadtypes patch went in?
20:50:05 <peter1138> andythenorth, that isn't massive
20:51:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i very sporadically played TTDPatch, i think it was 1.6 or 1.7 when i first found it
20:51:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the next time i played openttd 0.4.0 (without .1)
20:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and then half a year later i played nightlies
20:52:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and it was bad enough that it made me join here
20:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> PBS and newgrf troubles
20:53:14 <supermop_> i joined here because i had no idea how to make a fenced yard tile
20:53:41 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you played ottd 0.4.0 without 0.0.0.1? that was only around for 6 days :p
20:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> like a week later i couldn't join servers anymore, so i updated
20:56:42 <peter1138> + // THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG
20:56:47 <peter1138> well, at least i knew it...
20:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember a comment like: "TODO: doesn't work -- WHAT doesn't work?"
20:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it was there for years :)
21:00:24 <peter1138> i remember there being a point in doing newstations where i realised that the newgrf support was majorly hacked up just for vehicles
21:01:30 <frosch123> maybe also the reason, why stations are actually the most-incomplete grf-feature in ottd
21:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember you complaining about how the first newgrf support was hacked in to manage specific grfs, not something remotely generic
21:01:43 <frosch123> noone uses the stuff anyway
21:01:56 * andythenorth doesn't understand how to code stations. I've outsourced that to y*xo
21:02:11 <peter1138> frosch123, i don't remember it being too incomplete
21:02:21 <andythenorth> it's complete enough
21:02:23 <frosch123> were random triggers ever implemented?
21:02:24 <andythenorth> just a bit bonkers
21:02:48 <peter1138> but then nobody ever used it
21:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> something about delivery stats was still missing last time i checked
21:02:59 <andythenorth> ISR uses animation :)
21:03:40 <frosch123> peter1138: animation is implemented yet, but i never found a trace of random triggers
21:03:40 <peter1138> station animation is where TileArea came from
21:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but the only GRF that makes use of those is unreleased by you know who
21:04:24 <frosch123> random bits are only randomised on building stations
21:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> which actually brings me back to a suggestion i had: instead of currently waiting cargo, effects should be based on average throughput per month
21:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> ISR has beautiful cargo piles, but they never show, because stations must always be empty
21:07:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not with FIRS new station algorithm :D
21:08:09 <frosch123> peter1138: random triggers are definitely not implemented for stations
21:08:12 <andythenorth> I usually have around 1,000t waiting at primaries
21:08:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i never actually tested that :)
21:08:21 <andythenorth> total game changer :)
21:08:32 <frosch123> but noone ever complained about it missing :p
21:08:34 <andythenorth> should have been done *years* ago :P
21:08:42 <andythenorth> ^ station rating, not random trigger
21:20:56 <appe> =IF(Diagram!B18>70%;"";"Adressfil har ntt 70% bearbetning. Se ver alternativa listor fr samma projekt!")
21:21:13 <appe> does this feel right to you? :)
21:29:35 <supermop_> show waiting cargo on platforms in proportion to station rating rather than actual amount waiting I think is what he is suggesting?
21:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> make the station rating so it does not drop immediately when no train is waiting, so cargo has a chance to pile up
21:39:02 <Elukka> that sounds amazingly sensible
21:39:53 <supermop_> Yexo, do you want hand drawn 32bpp or rendered?
21:40:07 <supermop_> seems it would be best to stick to one or the other
21:46:25 <Yexo> there are not so many sprites available currently, so for now I'm mor than happy with any sprites at all
21:47:13 <supermop_> which chunk might be most manageable for one to take on himself?
21:48:19 <Yexo> there are a lot of train engines and wagons that have models already, they just need to be rendered for normal zoom
21:50:01 <supermop_> on the thing for airports
21:50:39 <supermop_> it mentions a seaplane port - would this be able to use extant water tiles or would one need to draw those?
21:50:55 <Yexo> there is no seaplane port available currently
21:51:05 <Yexo> nor will there in the near future
21:51:11 <Yexo> so there are no sprites needed for it right now
21:51:14 <frosch123> are there ogfx+bridges?
21:51:25 <Yexo> nml doesn't support bridges yet :p
21:51:49 <supermop_> if someone draws bridges does that help nudge it along?
21:52:08 <frosch123> i think the tubular bridge was one of the first 32bpp sprites in ottd using alpha
21:52:09 <supermop_> and what would be desired for '+' bridges
21:52:31 <frosch123> but i think it was never really released
21:52:44 <supermop_> ogfx+ ideally would add to, not replace default bridges
21:53:01 <supermop_> but currently we do not have a 'bridge types' feature
21:53:04 <frosch123> that's still not possible :)
21:53:47 <frosch123> since most stuff in ogfx+vehicles is company coloured, i guess you might improve it most by adding an alpha channel
21:53:53 <supermop_> so it seems like ogfx+ bridges is more dependent on allowing more bridges in ottd than allowing brides in nml
21:54:23 <frosch123> supermop_: with ogfx+bridges i meant adding real transparency for the covered bridges
21:57:36 <supermop_> for a glass bridge?
21:57:57 <frosch123> the tubular bridges
21:58:30 <frosch123> the catenary might also profit from some anti-aliasing
22:16:24 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: have any references of prussian freight cars handy?
22:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> other than the ones i posted into the ticket?
22:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that i know for sure is that the colour practically never changed
22:17:46 <Elukka> would they have had the same colo- oh okay
22:18:34 <Elukka> it turns out a 3 lu wagon looks kinda weird
22:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> other than tank wagons, which were privately owned and had no universal colour scheme, and refrigerated wagons, which were usually white
22:19:23 <Elukka> what do you want me to color the tank cars?
22:19:35 <Elukka> a bunch of different color schemes could be interesting
22:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yellow is a good start
22:25:21 <Elukka> started that last night
22:25:34 <weirdy> I have another question
22:27:37 <weirdy> What's the best way to play a game with multiple companies?
22:28:13 <supermop_> add an idle ai and cheat to switch between them?
22:28:27 <Elukka> and also a 3 axle compartment coach... a lot of copypasting from the 4 axle ones :P
22:28:27 <supermop_> im doing that at the moment
22:28:32 <weirdy> Wouldn't a server be better?
22:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks pretty good
22:29:10 <supermop_> if you want to play with other people, yes
22:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> use IdleAI and the company cheat, or start a local multiplayer game and use the company menu to switch companies
23:21:29 <appe> judging by the cars, thats not yesterday
23:22:09 <Elukka> shanghai has a slightly better one
23:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that M-Bahn was more a subway-replacement than a tram-replacement
23:38:00 <Elukka> well, some sort of city transit
23:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it kinda fell victim to the reunification
23:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> part of the testing track was on a discontinued subway line, which had to be reopened. and it was considered too expensive to convert the whole network
23:41:33 <Elukka> i suppose all that technology was/is still more expensive than the maintenance of traditional rail vehicles
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23:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if you noticed this, but berlin is hopelessly out of money. like they had banks bursting 10 years before they burst in the rest of the world...
continue to next day ⏵
