IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-06
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00:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: if you give me a 10DM bill, i can tell you ;)
00:07:55 <__ln__> so the euro has finally lost its value
00:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> no. but the 10DM bill had Gauss and the formula for the normal distribution on it
00:10:01 <__ln__> i was kind of thinking of Gauss, but i thought he was on 100DM or something
00:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause>
00:11:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but on this image, the resolution is not high enough
00:13:13 <supermop_> the moire patterns on that forehead are a bit disconcerting
00:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the scanner's fault
00:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> this is a more high res image:
00:16:26 <supermop_> ok now i need a really good printer and a bunch of cotton paper
00:16:39 <supermop_> they still accept marks for euros right?
00:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but only at central banks
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00:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> traffic light in ulaan baator (capital of mongolia):
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00:47:53 <__ln__> great
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04:39:28 <z-MaTRiX> hey
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04:43:27 <Pawz> hello people
04:44:36 <Pawz> does anyone here have a copy of FIRS that works with the 32bbp + Extra zoom levels?
04:49:38 <Pawz> it's unfortunately difficult to find all the bits and pieces of things to get 'em all working together
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05:00:04 <planetmaker> Pawz: there's no reason FIRS should not work with 32bpp or extra zoom
05:00:14 <planetmaker> Unless of course, if that binary is too old
05:00:31 <planetmaker> where then FIRS 0.6.4 as from bananas should still work
05:00:36 <planetmaker> and good morning :-)
05:03:17 <Pawz> howdy :) It's not quite that it's not working, it's just that I've got this odd issue where I end up with duplicates of the road vehicles - like 2 regal busses (one 32bpp one not)
05:04:38 <planetmaker> which is totally unrelated to FIRS
05:04:56 <Pawz> is it? hm
05:05:08 <planetmaker> and probably rather related to something like "old vehicles, new cargos" Newgrf or similar
05:05:20 <Pawz> OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles perhaps?
05:05:29 <planetmaker> of course. FIRS is industries and cargos. Not vehicles
05:05:47 <Pawz> does FIRS update vehicles with the new cargo types ?
05:05:52 <planetmaker> no
05:06:13 <planetmaker> and never will
05:07:31 <Pawz> ok... but you need some vehicles to transport the new goods
05:08:35 <Pawz> so for example I grabbed the 'ECS & FIRS original vehicle set' grf, which seemed to do that
05:08:52 <planetmaker> yes, that'll be the newgrf which causes double vehicles
05:09:34 <Pawz> am I going about this the wrong way then?
05:09:54 <Pawz> or do I just have to give up on 32bpp
05:10:26 <Pawz> when it works, it looks amazing though
05:10:28 <planetmaker> I don't know that NewGRF. But I know only one vehicle set which provides vehicles in 32bpp
05:10:42 <planetmaker> which is grvts
05:10:53 <planetmaker> (not egrvts)
05:11:35 * Pawz cancels egrvts
05:11:36 <Pawz> heh
05:12:22 <Pawz> grvts doesn't show up as an online newgrf
05:12:28 <planetmaker> it isn't
05:12:29 <Elukka> sets that don't have 32bpp sprites should still work, just, well, it won't have 32bpp sprites
05:12:43 <planetmaker> and yes, the sets should ALL work
05:12:56 <planetmaker> just the sprites will show in the usual 8bpp
05:12:59 <Pawz> yeah, just the duplicated vehicles thing
05:13:19 <planetmaker> Pawz: that's the result of *one* vehicle NewGRF which does re-define the original vehicles
05:13:46 <Pawz> mhm, so I'm looking for a way to have FIRS cargos, on 32bpp trucks!
05:13:49 <planetmaker> did you try starting a new game without this ecs and firs original vehicle newgrf?
05:13:51 <Pawz> :)
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05:14:00 <planetmaker> Pawz: that does not exist
05:14:09 <mib_ji5sws> hey guys
05:14:12 <mib_ji5sws> i have a question...
05:14:18 <Pawz> hm. poop.
05:14:23 <planetmaker> neither FIRS is 32bpp nor are there vehicles with all those cargos in 32bpp
05:14:26 <mib_ji5sws> lets say I have a website. I can embed a youtube video in it.
05:14:35 <planetmaker> it all will work on 32bpp though
05:14:43 <planetmaker> just not use that many colours
05:14:49 <Pawz> yeah, I can get it working fine without the high res vehicles
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05:14:57 <mib_ji5sws> In fact, I could embed multiple youtube videos in it. So that if someone opened the original link, all of those youtube videos' views would increase by 1, correct?
05:15:09 <Elukka> incidentally, is higher resolution sprites a feature of 32bpp or extra zoom levels?
05:15:11 <mib_ji5sws> Is there anyway I can embed a website within another website?
05:15:16 <Pawz> extra zoom levels
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05:15:20 <Elukka> i don't mean actually zooming in more, just the 32bpp sprites seem to be much higher resolution
05:15:31 <Pawz> well, yeah they look nicer at standard zoom
05:15:42 <planetmaker> Elukka: it's a common mis-conception that 32bpp requires the extra-zoom binary or patch.
05:15:48 <planetmaker> normal openttd supports 32bpp
05:16:16 <Elukka> yeah i know
05:17:03 <Pawz> time to try the dev nightly 32bpp build
05:17:05 <Anwar> My question:
05:17:05 <Anwar> Hey guys. I can embed multiple videos to a site, so that if someone opens the site, the videos' views increase by one for every video. Is there any way I can embed a website into another website, so that if someone visits the original website, the embedded website is requested and displayed on it as well? Thanks.
05:17:14 <Pawz> since the standard one seems to have hardly anything in it
05:17:20 <Elukka>
05:17:21 <Elukka>
05:17:31 <Elukka> what i mean is the 32bpp sprite obviously has way more resolution
05:17:43 <Pawz> yeah it looks awesome
05:17:44 <Elukka> err, and i linked the same thing twice it seems :P
05:18:29 <Elukka> so... without extra zoom levels, would the 32bpp sprite look like that or would it be as pixelated as the 8 bit sprite+
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05:19:40 <Pawz> it would look a lot better
05:19:54 <Pawz> you can tell right away with the new sprites
05:21:10 <Pawz> I can post a screenshot somewhere if you like
05:24:53 <Pawz> of course now I've screwed up my copy somehow -_-
05:27:10 <Elukka> i know what it looks like with extra zoom levels, but i'm curious how it looks without it
05:27:15 <Elukka> guess i could just go try grvts
05:29:54 <Pawz> does anyone have a compilation pack of 32bit sprites somewhere?
05:30:30 <Pawz> I don't mean a perfectly complete one, just one that is 'everything currently made / in progress'
05:32:05 <Pawz> hmm wonder what happens if you unpack the sprite folder outta the tars
05:33:50 <Pawz> huh. lookit that it works. Guess that would solve issues with tars over writing each other. maybe.
05:34:36 <Pawz> whoever did the 32 bit menu did a great job
05:37:27 <planetmaker> zephyris probably ;-)
05:39:07 <Elukka> i would like to play with 32bpp, but it looks so out of place unless everything is 32bpp...
05:39:32 <Elukka> if there was a 32bpp base set i think grf artists would be much more inclined for making 32bpp sprites
05:40:20 <Pawz> I found a wiki entry about a 32bpp base set
05:40:32 <Pawz> But it didn't say much
05:40:51 <Elukka> as far as i know nobody's really making one
05:40:54 <Pawz> Is there somewhere that lists all the sprites in the game?
05:41:31 <Elukka> not sure
05:41:40 <Elukka> either way it'd be just shy of 7000 sprites to draw
05:42:00 <Pawz> tough part at the moment seems to be finding all the sprites already done
05:42:22 <Pawz> Wonder what the OpenGFX guys used
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05:43:18 <Elukka> well it was a well-concerted effort with fancy tracking tables and devzone stuff
05:43:40 <Elukka> i wish there was a 32bpp base set project but i don't feel inclined to make one :P
05:46:29 <Pawz> I'd be happy with someone who's got all the 32bpp sprites posting their data folder :)
05:47:18 <Pawz> I have yet to find any game even close to OpenTTD in terms of game mechanics
05:47:39 <Pawz> it's just that on 1920 x1200 it gets a little too small
05:48:21 <Elukka> i agree
05:48:51 <Elukka> even just an extra zoom level without new sprites would be nice
05:49:10 <Pawz> well, have you tried the extra zoom binaries?
05:49:12 <Elukka> sure, things would be more pixelated but whatever
05:49:25 <Elukka> from what i've seen the extra zoom level patch makes old sprites blurry
05:49:52 <Pawz> well, blurry / pixelated, similar effect
05:50:10 <Elukka> i dunno
05:50:11 <Elukka>
05:50:14 <Elukka> i'd much rather have that than blur
05:50:30 <Elukka> that's a normal resolution 8 bit sprite at 200% zoom
05:51:04 <Pawz> well, it's not quite blur
05:51:18 <Pawz> it's some kind of 'round off the edges' algorithm they've got going
05:51:33 <Elukka> there's different zoom algorithms... browsers tend to do the blurry thing, graphics programs dont'
05:51:43 <Elukka> i think the blur in extra zoom levels looks awful
05:54:16 <Terkhen> good morning
05:54:23 <Terkhen> Pawz:
05:54:36 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
05:54:56 <Pawz>
05:55:07 <planetmaker> Elukka: do you draw cets in 32bpp?
05:55:10 <Pawz> there you go Elukka that's at the next zoom level
05:55:32 <Elukka> planetmaker, nah
05:55:34 <Terkhen> 32bpp with 8bpp looks out of place, yes
05:57:45 <Pawz> terkhen that's pretty comprehensive!
05:58:03 <Elukka> humh. that doesn't have the kind of blur i thought it had
05:58:09 <Elukka> might be i've only seen ancient screenshots
05:58:43 <Pawz> you can see in there the difference the 32bpp makes
05:58:47 <Pawz> with proper zoom levels
05:58:54 <Elukka> yeah
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05:59:10 <Elukka> planetmaker, that file probably isn't indexed since it's just a WIP shot, but i draw using the palette
05:59:11 <Elukka>
05:59:13 <Elukka> that's the actual game version
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05:59:44 <Pawz> lol that page just made firefox crash
06:00:56 <Pawz> so, is there anyone still active who maintains those scripts Terkhen? How hard would it be to get the source and/or add a column for 32 bit?
06:03:12 <planetmaker> just use a slightly different link...
06:03:15 <Pawz> or is it just insane to think about organising 'em
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06:04:07 <planetmaker> but I'm not sure how up to date the 32bpp part is
06:04:25 <planetmaker> those people develop the stuff elsewhere
06:05:29 <Pawz> is that built from a repository somewhere?
06:06:57 <planetmaker> yes
06:07:20 <Pawz> same one as the jupix one?
06:07:45 <planetmaker> no :-) and ...
06:09:05 <planetmaker>
06:09:36 <planetmaker> not sure they use a vcs on jupix server really
06:10:01 <planetmaker> <-- I meant that :-)
06:10:10 <Pawz> yeah found that one :)
06:10:45 <planetmaker> <-- or that? Dunno :-)
06:10:46 <appe> i guess you didnt miss the news about steve jobs.
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06:11:05 <planetmaker> hard to miss
06:14:04 <Pawz> farkles, there's TWO wikis lol
06:15:26 <Pawz> it's like poking a bag that things keep falling out of
06:15:38 <Pawz> in a good way
06:15:45 <planetmaker> two wikis?
06:16:00 <planetmaker> hundrets! ;-)
06:16:16 <Pawz> well, there's the whole openTTD thing and then the openTTDCoop
06:16:35 <planetmaker> oh, sure
06:17:05 <planetmaker> but why shouldn't?
06:17:12 <planetmaker> it's two different things ;-)
06:17:24 <planetmaker> one for the game. And one for a particular gaming community ;-)
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06:20:07 <Pawz> and the gaming community hosts the graphics project for the game
06:20:45 <planetmaker> ah... well. you mean OpenGFX?
06:21:11 <planetmaker> yes. The DevZone evolved quite well :-)
06:22:07 <Pawz> well, colour me impressed all around :)
06:22:39 <planetmaker> Reason might be that it was easier for me to setup things on my server when I started working on the graphics project ;-)
06:23:06 <appe> propellerheads reason <3.
06:23:13 <peter1138> i guess when we 'adopted' opengfx, there was no particular need to move any of its working development process...
06:24:09 <Pawz> Is there perhaps more information than the standard openttd wiki for creating sprites?
06:24:22 <planetmaker> there are two more wikis ;-)
06:24:30 <Pawz> Like, say, a 3dsmax file with all the standard tiles... oh dear
06:24:44 <Pawz> you weren't kidding about the 'hundrets and hundrets' were you
06:24:45 <Pawz> lol
06:24:49 <peter1138> :D
06:25:02 <planetmaker> and or
06:25:05 <peter1138> i'm not sure why it's separate
06:25:24 <peter1138> possibly because the remaining ttdpatch user doesn't want newgrf to be too associated with openttd...
06:25:47 <planetmaker> well. NewGRF specs being separate makes sense. Somewhat
06:25:54 <Pawz> only one of those eh? :)
06:26:03 <planetmaker> no. all of those
06:26:14 <planetmaker> :-)
06:26:36 <Elukka> "TTD internally uses a 3D engine, which then uses an isometric projection to display graphics on a 2D screen."
06:26:39 <Elukka> it... runs a 3D engine?
06:26:41 <planetmaker> Pawz: and it proves usually quite helpful to look at existing newgrf projects
06:26:52 <Elukka> i suppose the graphics engine is 2D?
06:26:53 <planetmaker> you find many on the devzone again.
06:27:04 <planetmaker> it's pure 2D, Elukka. or 2.5D
06:27:06 <Elukka> or could you really just unlock the camera and move around in a (very flat) world?
06:27:08 <Elukka> i see
06:27:32 <Terkhen> Elukka: where did you find that text? :P
06:27:38 <Elukka>
06:27:57 <peter1138> some parts have 3D coordinates
06:28:05 <peter1138> that doesn't really make it a 3D engine
06:28:06 <planetmaker> hence 2.5D ;-)
06:28:23 <Elukka> yeah, i thought it was a 2D engine
06:28:28 <Elukka> i suppose the wiki is a bit wrong
06:28:29 <Terkhen> I wouldn't call an engine that uses bounding boxes "3D engine" :P
06:28:52 <planetmaker> o_O That was the last place I expected such statement
06:30:03 <Pawz> oddly enough I crossed paths with that page yesterday and thought the same thing
06:39:10 <Pawz> planetmaker is there a root page for that script with the 32bpp graphics?
06:39:59 <Pawz> I'm basically trying to find somewhere I can pick a sprite and 'upgrade' it to 32bpp
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06:41:11 <Terkhen> Pawz: <--- that is the thread of the may 32bpp project... I would prefer it if they were sprite-oriented instead of pack oriented, though
06:41:16 <Terkhen> s/may/main/
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06:42:39 <planetmaker> I still think the project might profit from using one repo. And just starting to use one license instead of many. And that's it.
06:42:52 <Pawz> Terken: Is that seperate from the project?
06:42:58 <Pawz> it seems scattered between a few places
06:43:52 <Terkhen> Pawz: I don't know much about the project, sorry
06:43:53 <planetmaker> Pawz: you found one of the things which hinder progress there ;-)
06:43:58 <Terkhen> but ^
06:45:00 <Pawz> ok.. then.. planetmaker.. what if someone were to say, grab all the stuff from the jupix repo and break it down by sprite and upload it to the 32bpp project?
06:45:11 <Terkhen> you will be hindered by different licenses
06:45:18 <planetmaker> I'd probably make an OpenGFX clone, call it OpenGFX-32bpp and bundle the 32bpp files on top
06:45:23 <planetmaker> in a new project
06:45:44 <planetmaker> and look for gpl sprites only
06:45:56 <Terkhen> I'd create a new project, with a license decided from the very beginning and start asking authors for their permission to relicense
06:46:03 <Terkhen> otherwise it will be a nightmare :P
06:46:08 <planetmaker> and I'm not exactly sure how it's organized on jupix' server
06:46:16 <Terkhen> note that I don't know if the current project has done that relicense task
06:47:31 <planetmaker> I just know there's still stuff with different licenses
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06:47:54 <planetmaker> but in which bundles or when and where... dunno
06:48:54 <planetmaker> Pawz: but in principle that's what one could do - as long as one minds the license of the graphics and only uses those which on may
06:49:49 <Pawz> Planetmaker: alright. Where do the images come from in that script you gave me ?
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06:51:44 <Pawz> since the only successful way to do this would be to have a proper repository that compared the base sprites to the 32bpp
06:52:02 <Pawz> which *looks* like what you've got already
06:52:47 <planetmaker> hm, I'd have said it comes from the 32bpp project
06:52:53 <planetmaker> but I wonder about the repo...
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06:55:15 <Pawz> is that seperate from what Jupix is doing?
06:55:36 <Pawz> That thread seems to indicate he's running some kind of 32bpp base conversion project
06:55:43 <planetmaker> I don't quite know
06:56:10 <Terkhen> that project is managed by GeekToo and IIRC he was the one updating the extra-zoom patch
06:56:27 <planetmaker> yes
06:58:00 <Pawz> ok so we're definitely talking two overlapping projects
06:58:17 <Pawz> the sprite based approach seems much cleaner though
06:59:35 <planetmaker> well, it's definitely at least in parts done by the same people iirc
06:59:48 <Terkhen> and IMO we need a project geared towars creating a 32bpp base set, not a project that aims to help with 32bpp pack distribution
07:00:09 <peter1138> last time i looked at 32bpp they were all distracted by ugly mismatching extra zoom sprites...
07:00:30 <Terkhen> yes, extra zoom could come later, once that a base set is working
07:00:37 <Terkhen> that would increase the interest in extra zoom
07:00:38 <planetmaker> yes, definitely
07:00:58 <Pawz> I suppose the difficulty there is that once you've got a 3d model rendered it's dead simple to make more zoom levels
07:01:00 <planetmaker> one big backdraw though: 32bpp cannot be distributed yet via bananas
07:01:10 <planetmaker> Pawz: probably
07:01:26 <peter1138> only because there's nothing to distribute yet, therefore it was never written...
07:01:35 <planetmaker> of course :-)
07:02:42 <planetmaker> someone got the download link for the current 32bpp sprites at hand?
07:02:48 <Pawz> har
07:02:53 <Pawz> that's what got me started on this
07:03:08 <Pawz> there IS no link for the current ones
07:03:12 <planetmaker> :-)
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07:03:26 <peter1138> if only i could draw...
07:03:39 <Pawz> I can draw
07:03:45 <Pawz> if I knew what I needed to draw
07:03:51 <peter1138> one other problem they have is they try to perfect every single sprite they do
07:04:09 <Pawz> hey you gotta admit the sprites they DO have look amazing
07:04:16 <peter1138> yes, individually
07:04:23 <planetmaker> but not all-together
07:04:38 <planetmaker> there's (also) different styles
07:05:32 <planetmaker> hm... with those sprites I have not even all ground tiles seem done... :S
07:05:44 <peter1138> open up opengfx to see what needs to be drawn :)
07:05:44 <planetmaker> looks ugly this way
07:06:33 <planetmaker> uh?
07:06:47 <planetmaker>
07:07:11 <peter1138> what happened there?
07:07:28 <planetmaker> I just use the 32bpp-anim blitter :-)
07:07:30 <planetmaker> Nothing more
07:07:44 <peter1138> oh right, unfinished 32bpp stuff :p
07:08:00 <planetmaker> and as such the 32bpp sprites which I could find. I got the pack from jupix site one? two? weeks ago
07:08:25 <peter1138> the roads look odd :S
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07:09:10 <planetmaker> <-- Pawz that's where I got the stuff and which is currently the official download link iirc
07:09:34 <Pawz> ^ yeah that link gives you 27 tars
07:09:40 <Pawz> well, compiled from 27
07:09:45 <peter1138> that's... ugh
07:09:53 <Pawz> the dev one is like 100+
07:10:57 <Pawz> and is about 65mb :)
07:11:46 <planetmaker> Pawz: but then, use that tar, see what is missing ingame and you know what needs drawing :-)
07:12:15 <planetmaker> and my 8bpp shores are nicer :-P
07:13:19 <planetmaker> (I dislike shores straight as a ruler)
07:13:51 <Pawz> Well, what stops me is that I *know* there's some more stuff out there (like fences!) that isn't showing up in the nightly dev build and I can't remember where the heck I found it in the first place
07:14:04 <Pawz> since at first I was like 'hey cool, I can make a fence, that's easy'
07:14:24 <Pawz> and then the organisation expedition began :)
07:14:42 <Pawz> Which brings me back to the question of where the heck are those nice sprites you show in your PHP script? :)
07:15:46 <Pawz> some of them exist here.. hmm
07:17:05 <planetmaker> :-) If I knew exactly, I'd have told you
07:18:02 <planetmaker> they are sure all part of *some* 32bpp pack
07:18:16 <planetmaker> probably even an extra-zoom pack as they're twice the required size
07:19:32 <Pawz> yeah plus the script has the extra zoom levels
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07:34:31 <Pawz> planetmaker: is there a root page for this script?
07:37:52 <planetmaker> not directly. I thought it was from the OpenGFX project. But that's slightly different
07:38:34 <Pawz> i think i found it!
07:38:36 <Pawz>
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07:40:50 <Ammler> those are not related, as I setup the php script, I imported some 32bpp tars, those were never updated
07:41:28 <Ammler> only the opengfx sprites are linked to nightly, the rest is static
07:41:44 <Ammler> (and maybe 3 years old)
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07:45:29 <planetmaker> Ammler: maybe we just start a 32bpp nightly? :-)
07:45:42 <planetmaker> All gpl, no frills, normal zoom only?
07:45:58 <Pawz> may as well add the option for all zoom levels eh
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07:46:34 <planetmaker> maybe
07:46:55 <planetmaker> but the zoom-levels patch as is has serious short-comings
07:47:06 <Ammler> planetmaker: baseset?
07:47:33 <planetmaker> Yes, sorta. Like take OpenGFX and put on 32bpp sprites where available
07:47:48 <planetmaker> and kinda use the 32bpp-extra for the extra grf
07:47:52 <Ammler> yes, but then we first should convert to nml
07:47:55 <planetmaker> yes
07:48:10 <planetmaker> we should indeed. Easier in that case
07:48:16 <Pawz> the patch may have shortcomings, but the core concept is a good one
07:48:33 <planetmaker> let's say: the idea: yes
07:48:36 <Ammler> well, nml is the only tool which supports 32bpp
07:48:43 <Ammler> so required imo
07:48:46 <planetmaker> yes. though there's pngcodec
07:48:58 <planetmaker> but doing it in NML is much nicer / easier and all
07:49:00 <Ammler> I would not call that a tool :-P
07:49:13 <planetmaker> it's a tool like nforenum and grfcodec
07:49:25 <planetmaker> it's the assembler for 32bpp where nml is the "c" ;-)
07:49:57 <planetmaker> so... would I need nml support for OpenGFX, eh?
07:50:08 <planetmaker> or we (first) start an NML branch for OpenGFX
07:50:16 <Ammler> well, it is not independent tool
07:50:18 <planetmaker> branch. Not repo
07:50:24 <Ammler> you need another script to run it
07:51:54 <Pawz> well, if I can help in any way.. ?
07:52:10 <Pawz> not sure how much work you're talking about that's all :)
07:52:39 <planetmaker> Pawz: that's talking about quite some work :-)
07:53:31 <Ammler> no chance to convert opengfx via script to nml?
07:53:33 <planetmaker> as it means a re-write of a base set
07:53:50 <planetmaker> Ammler: not entirely. But it could be done in large parts
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07:54:24 <planetmaker> it would fail where we use the templates
07:54:34 <planetmaker> which we do not do in most cases
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07:55:50 <Ammler> is the same tar able to have normal and ez sprites?
07:56:07 <Pawz> what *are* ez sprites?
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07:56:42 <Ammler> 32bpp are same size as 8bpp
07:56:54 <Ammler> 32bpp-ez have differen sizes
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07:58:15 <Pawz> the -ez ones use NML for correct positioning then?
07:58:24 <Ammler> the issue is because everyone thinks ez is the "normal" 32bpp, people still stay making 8bpp graphcis
07:59:00 <Ammler> instead making 32bpp right from start and not care about the very limited palette anymore
07:59:33 <peter1138> :S
07:59:35 <planetmaker> Pawz: probably not and they use nfo. But not sure
07:59:46 <planetmaker> or pngcodec
07:59:53 <planetmaker> nml is still a very new language
07:59:56 <Ammler> IMO, openttd should trash 8bpp and use 32bpp only
08:00:01 <planetmaker> nah
08:00:08 <planetmaker> 8bpp is still faster
08:00:27 <Ammler> you have proves?
08:00:35 <planetmaker> but newgrfs can meanwhile declare their preferred blitter. Thus... it's just about using it
08:00:46 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes. it could be easily proven
08:01:25 <Ammler> I thought it is just a bit more memory usage
08:01:46 <planetmaker> and thus needs more memory shuffling and updating. Thus it's slower :-)
08:01:49 <Ammler> which openttd has bascially none
08:01:59 <Pawz> well, maybe if you're running on 256mb of ram :)
08:02:14 <planetmaker> that's sufficient, Pawz for any openttd
08:02:25 <Ammler> Pawz: how much memory has a today phone?
08:02:47 <Pawz> no idea. are phone users a pretty big user base?
08:03:01 <Pawz> I'd think it'd be terribly painful to use the game on a phone.
08:03:16 <Ammler> don't think so, just think, those might be the only user which would suffer from more memory usage
08:03:24 <appe> bill evans is a god damn hero.
08:03:30 <Pawz> regardless, there's no point in dumping 8bit if you've got 'em all already
08:03:54 <Ammler> nah, you still need to support it
08:04:02 <Ammler> it is not like done
08:04:14 <Ammler> there is no opengfx 1.0 :-)
08:04:16 <Pawz> oh? I though OpenGFX had replaced all teh sprites
08:04:23 <planetmaker> it has
08:04:35 <planetmaker> we just didn't call it 1.0 for whatever reason
08:04:41 <Pawz> so that's not 'done'? :)
08:04:55 <planetmaker> toyland could use more climate-specific sprites
08:04:56 <Ammler> planetmaker: because it isn't done
08:04:59 <Pawz> you just want to add ice to your rivers don't you
08:05:11 <planetmaker> and some other things might need a slight overhaul to look better
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08:05:25 <planetmaker> Pawz: yes... but don't they have ice?
08:05:32 <planetmaker> or you want ice floating?
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08:05:41 <Pawz> floating ice that animates!
08:05:52 <planetmaker> no animation. Floating ice is feasible
08:06:08 <Pawz> I'd like 32bpp floating ice please.
08:06:08 <planetmaker> the buoy has floating ice around it, if above snow line ;-)
08:06:16 <Ammler> oh, isn't animation a bit issue on 32bpp, btw.?
08:06:28 <Ammler> or at least the action colors
08:06:29 <Pawz> apparently it's just not there?
08:06:36 <Pawz> I think the palette cycling doesn't work
08:06:48 <planetmaker> let's see
08:07:01 <Ammler> then we have a real reason not to drop 8bpp :-)
08:07:23 <Ammler> s/bit/big/
08:07:39 <Pawz> I'd call it a reason to add animating to 32bit
08:08:24 <norbert79> Ammler: Memory usage? That could be also an additional reason... Just saying.
08:08:34 <Ammler> norbert79: really?
08:08:53 <norbert79> Ammler: Well, I am thinking on machines which don't have a GPU included
08:08:55 <planetmaker> palette animation works
08:09:09 <planetmaker> norbert79: openttd needs not really a gui
08:09:13 <planetmaker> err... gpu
08:09:24 <Ammler> are there any benchmarks/stats avialable somewhere
08:09:26 <planetmaker> just some video memory
08:09:38 <norbert79> planetmaker: Exactly. 8 bit uses less of it...
08:09:50 <Ammler> I mean the difference needs to be damn huge as 8bpp uses no memory
08:09:53 <norbert79> if it is important still
08:10:03 <norbert79> Ammler: It uses, but not the system RAM
08:10:17 <norbert79> Memory isn't always RAM only :)
08:10:44 <planetmaker> Ammler: the amount of memory needed for graphics is about 4 times as big for 32bpp when compared to 8bpp
08:10:46 <Ammler> I see, and that is different from 8bpp to 32bpp?
08:10:49 <planetmaker> thus... it will be slower
08:11:17 <Ammler> planetmaker: thats sounds for me like you calculated 32/8 :-P
08:11:27 <planetmaker> bah. 32bpp coal mines are... in need of a serious overhaul
08:11:38 <planetmaker> coal pile looks like just a black dot
08:11:51 <planetmaker> no dust anywhere. Waaaay too clean for such mine
08:12:03 <planetmaker> newly kärcher'ed buildings...
08:12:20 <Pawz> how much of a process is it to get a standard png into the game?
08:12:59 <Ammler> does a today graphic card really take advance from 8bpp graphcis?
08:13:11 <Pawz> I don't know anything about making newgrfs or whatnot, but I can make some sprites
08:13:28 <Pawz> Ammler - it *may* IF the sprites are rendered through a 3d engine
08:13:36 <Pawz> which I doubt OTTD does
08:14:08 <Ammler> I really would like some stats/benchmarks which show difference from 8bpp to 32bpp
08:14:11 <Ammler> (no ez)
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08:14:49 <planetmaker> Pawz: in principle as much work as using on sprites, i.e. only slightly over getting a normal newgrf up and running
08:15:38 <norbert79> Pawz: I love the fact, that OpenTTD doesn't need any accelerated GPU to be able to work, so it can be ran even on very old machines too
08:15:57 <Pawz> norbert79: wasn't suggesting it should be otherwise :)
08:15:59 <norbert79> Pawz: Would be sad if it would be changed
08:16:14 <Pawz> just sayin' that it wouldn't use the GPU to do anything
08:16:35 <Ammler> norbert79: and that can't handle 32bpp?
08:17:25 <norbert79> Ammler: Well, very old GFX card cannot handle 32 bpp that fast, for example an S3 Virge might go well with it, while a plain S3 would suffer
08:17:55 <norbert79> Ammler: But these all are assumptions, since old games used to use 8bit, but that got 'projected' onto a 32 bit resolution
08:18:07 <norbert79> Ammler: So basically it looked better, but still all sprites were 8 bit
08:18:27 <Ammler> well, that 8bpp and 32bpp doesn't differ noticeable is also (my) assumption ;-)
08:18:48 <norbert79> Ammler: Memory usage... Still... more bpp, more memory needed
08:18:56 <Ammler> norbert79: 32bpp would not have any issue to render 8bpp, would it?
08:19:05 <norbert79> ?
08:19:21 <Ammler> norbert79: 4 times the memory from now would not be much more
08:19:27 <norbert79> That would make the CPU usage higher
08:19:28 <Ammler> it would still be below 100MB
08:19:30 <planetmaker> Ammler: 8bpp is mostly also faster with the (palette) animation
08:19:38 <planetmaker> which needs to be done quite differently for 32bpp
08:19:41 <Ammler> at max 200
08:19:49 <planetmaker> and palette animation is a core part of openttd graphics
08:19:50 <norbert79> Why to use 32 bit sprites and converting those back to 8 bit? Doesn't make sense
08:20:07 <V453000> well the main CPU melt that openttd makes is pathfinding and other not-drawing actions I suppose
08:20:26 <Ammler> norbert79: I meant using the 8bpp sprites and render with 32bpp
08:20:37 <V453000> so a slight increase in drawing might not be that drastical?
08:20:37 <Ammler> I guess, that is already that way, if you enable 32bpp
08:20:38 <planetmaker> V453000: not only. zooming out on a busy map uses significant amounts of cpu
08:20:44 <V453000> true
08:20:56 <norbert79> Ammler: Yes
08:20:58 <planetmaker> and look at the speed up for fast-forward you get for a full-screen window and a minimized window
08:21:21 <V453000> yes, didnt think about that
08:21:23 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: good thing i use a ViRGE/DX
08:21:24 <PeanutHorst> :p
08:21:26 <planetmaker> as all drawing and sprite update is on the cpu it's not negligible
08:21:36 <Ammler> maybe we should ask SmatZ to make some benchmarks
08:21:43 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: Lucky... I only could get a regular S3 back then... :)
08:21:51 <Ammler> I mean everyone here does just guess, nobody really knows :-)
08:21:52 <V453000> hm :) I am happy with 8bpp anyway :P
08:21:55 <Ammler> or can prove
08:21:58 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: it was way too expensive back then
08:22:17 <norbert79> Ammler: Can't prove what?
08:22:19 <peter1138> s3... *shudder*
08:22:27 <peter1138> V453000, yeah, that's the problem :)
08:22:33 <peter1138> well "problem"
08:22:36 <Ammler> norbert79: that dropping 8bpp blitter would slow down the game
08:22:52 <Ammler> (noticeable)
08:23:35 <norbert79> Ammler: Try it on older machines, you'll see using 32 bit... Besides, simple: create a BMP file, 640x480, save it in 32 bit and in 8 bit. Check filesizes
08:23:55 <Ammler> yesyes
08:24:06 <Ammler> that is obvious
08:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> man you guys talk waaay too much this early in the morning
08:24:16 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: i was joking - but I do have a Virge DX around here
08:24:19 <Terkhen> :P
08:24:26 <PeanutHorst> also an ATi RAGE IIc
08:24:26 <Ammler> of course it will differ, I meant "noticeable"
08:24:57 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Headaches? :)
08:25:31 <norbert79> Ammler: Even on my Intel 945 I can see huge difference, when using 32 bit, and fullscreen... It slows indeed down
08:25:32 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: I suggested to drop 8bpp, some people don't want :-P
08:26:32 <Ammler> norbert79: you run openttd? :-o
08:26:51 <norbert79> Ammler: Not right now, but home I use to play it with my son often in LAN
08:27:16 <Ammler> hehe
08:27:24 <Ammler> well, I meant the test you just did
08:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yeah, i came that far
08:27:41 <Ammler> or do you speak from memory?
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08:28:02 <norbert79> Ammler: Re-read my sentence, of course I am speaking about past experiences/tests
08:28:07 <norbert79> Ammler: :)
08:28:24 <Ammler> as all here do, nobody really knows :-)
08:28:55 <Ammler> maybe peter1138 does, but he is silent about this topic :-P
08:29:16 <peter1138> i am?
08:29:22 <peter1138> what is it know?
08:29:54 <peter1138> +i
08:30:02 <peter1138> obviously not english
08:30:11 <Ammler> would people notice, if openttd just drops 8bpp?
08:30:16 <norbert79> Ammler: Yes
08:30:42 <Ammler> :-)
08:30:44 <peter1138> someone would complain
08:30:48 <peter1138> possibly me ;)
08:30:56 <norbert79> and many hundred others too
08:31:14 <norbert79> tt-forums would die off from the slashdot effect
08:31:44 <Ammler> don't the mac users run openttd in 32bpp mode since ever?
08:32:05 <peter1138> i thinks o
08:33:11 <Ammler> planetmaker: I just think, you should also discuss this with your devs team, before we start a simple 32bpp opengfx clone
08:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> mac people are crazy anyway
08:33:29 <norbert79> I think that's a touchy topic today...
08:33:49 <peter1138> i don't think that's relevant
08:34:05 <Ammler> or well, we could call current opengfx 1.0 and continue on opengfx 2 with 32bpp :-)
08:34:32 <PeanutHorst> agree on that one
08:34:39 <peter1138> heh, i remember i posted a screenshot of 32bpp openttd once ;)
08:34:47 <PeanutHorst> or opengfx-ng (next gen)
08:34:48 <PeanutHorst> :p
08:34:51 <peter1138> it was 8bpp graphics but using the 32bpp blitter :p
08:35:06 * Ammler wonders if there will ever be 32bpp too few colors eihter?
08:35:25 <peter1138> well, it can't produce octarine
08:35:34 <PeanutHorst> ...
08:35:36 <PeanutHorst> nothing can.
08:35:36 <PeanutHorst> :)
08:35:48 <dihedral> oi
08:35:56 <Ammler> maybe we should make a kind of 1024bpp just to be sure
08:36:22 <PeanutHorst> ...
08:36:23 <peter1138> Ammler, some graphics cards can do 16 bits per channel (48bpp)
08:37:00 <norbert79> peter1138: Used to ran Half Life in that mode, when played on a Pentium 200 MMX, with an older GFX card
08:37:10 <peter1138> but i doubt that's necessary for gaming
08:37:15 <peter1138> norbert79, no, that's 16bpp
08:37:23 <norbert79> oh, wait, now I see
08:37:27 <norbert79> sorry
08:37:48 <norbert79> was confused with 16 bits/channel and with 16bpp
08:37:53 <peter1138> who thinks i should have a go at making antialiasing text with shadows look better? :p
08:38:01 <peter1138> -ing+ed
08:38:08 <norbert79> peter1138: I don't...
08:38:14 <planetmaker> 10:31 norbert79: tt-forums would die off from the slashdot effect <-- I'd not count on that
08:38:17 <peter1138> good call
08:38:24 <planetmaker> at least openttd website survived a slashdot already
08:38:40 <peter1138> it missed out on the opportunity to get notched :(
08:38:42 <norbert79> peter1138: I don't get it, OpenTTD was never about shiny bleed-edge graphics, it looks even after 17 years as good as it looked in 2011
08:38:45 <norbert79> I mean 1994
08:39:09 <Ammler> what does andy like about the ttd graphcis, the limited colors or the pixeling?
08:39:42 <planetmaker> Ammler: what discussion would starting a 32bpp OpenGFX clone need?
08:39:44 <norbert79> Ammler: Since when do you use a Personal Computer?
08:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you can pixel-push 32bpp graphics just as well
08:40:03 <Ammler> planetmaker: if we want to keep 8bpp opengfx
08:40:21 <Ammler> or simply "close" that and continue with 32bpp opengfx only
08:40:23 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Sure, but it's just not the same...
08:40:29 <planetmaker> I don't think it's an either-or question
08:40:46 <planetmaker> They could live along eachother, couldn't they?
08:40:53 <peter1138> yes
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08:41:08 <Terkhen> yup
08:41:09 <norbert79> Now I drop this conversdation and grab some food, I don't get it why it's such a rush dropping 8bpp, like all world would be depending on this...
08:41:20 <peter1138> norbert79, have you seen the text shadow with antialiased text on? :p
08:41:31 <peter1138> heh
08:41:34 <planetmaker> norbert79: I don't think anyone wants to really drop it here :-)
08:41:37 <Ammler> norbert79: there is no hurry :-P
08:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is that currently, if you go the 32bpp way, you have duplicate work with also providing 8bpp images
08:41:50 <peter1138> "rush"
08:41:51 <peter1138> hehe
08:41:54 <planetmaker> The only thing which is needed is easy 32bpp support. And graphics in 32bpp
08:41:55 <norbert79> peter1138: I do graphics, I know the difference for sure, but I just like OpenTTD as it looks, as it is now :)
08:42:41 <Ammler> norbert79: the question was just, if 8bpp has any advantage, which we didn't found any
08:42:43 <norbert79> peter1138: I go even further: Heores of Might and Magic started to suck, when they moved away from the good old looks, and even the 5th Episode or the 6th isn't the same either... I would have kept the 2D look as it was, and I still think HoMM3 is the best
08:42:57 <norbert79> Ammler: %s/any/many
08:43:09 <Ammler> all without prove :-P
08:43:10 <planetmaker> norbert79: fully agreed on HOMM
08:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not played any other than HoMM3
08:43:48 <planetmaker> Ammler: do the test: take a built-up psg. Measure cpu usage with both blitters and compare
08:43:52 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ever tried WoG, Wake of Gods called 3.5? It's a nice try, but I still don't like it...
08:43:58 <planetmaker> norbert79: no
08:43:59 <Ammler> I mean dropping 8bpp would not mean dropping 8bpp newgrfs
08:44:03 <planetmaker> don't even know that name
08:44:28 <planetmaker> Ammler: but then... why drop 8bpp?
08:44:31 <planetmaker> Any reason?
08:44:36 <norbert79> planetmaker: It's an extension to HoMM3, and there is also a project in place called: VCMI for HoMM
08:44:43 <Ammler> so you don't need to support it anymore
08:44:56 <planetmaker> it's a blitter which is there. So what?
08:44:58 <norbert79> planetmaker: Basically they try to do with HoMM3 the same what OpenTTD is for TTD
08:45:07 <planetmaker> ah
08:45:20 <planetmaker> I shall look at that. thanks
08:45:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: You are welcome
08:46:43 <Ammler> planetmaker: that's the point, you keep 8bpp in openttd, because it might have influence on psg (what's psg?)
08:47:43 <planetmaker> public server game? ;-)
08:48:30 <V453000> :-D
08:48:39 <planetmaker> I surely know I can play longer with 8bpp than with 32bpp blitter :-)
08:48:40 <Ammler> but you paused the game, I hope
08:48:43 <norbert79> Professional Service Gendre
08:48:56 <Ammler> planetmaker: I thought, you need to use 32bpp
08:49:08 <norbert79> Pretty Serious Game
08:49:10 <planetmaker> Ammler: no, I don't need to
08:49:15 <Ammler> so my guess, that osx users need 32bpp was wrong
08:49:16 <planetmaker> it's just the default
08:49:24 <planetmaker> but I don't use it usually
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08:49:58 <Ammler> why is it default?
08:50:10 <planetmaker> because there's hardware which has issues with 8bpp
08:50:26 <planetmaker> and the drivers obviously don't properly support that somewhere
08:50:31 <planetmaker> s/and/or/
08:51:50 <planetmaker> Ammler: and don't stop the game, but compare the very same game running
08:55:28 <Ammler> equal cpu usage, 4MB more useage for 32bpp
08:55:52 <Ammler> 35 instead 31, so 8bpp is really waste of your time
08:57:36 <Ammler> 9547 marcel 20 0 386m 44m 10m R 49 0.6 1:10.24 ./openttd -b 32bpp-anim
08:57:38 <Ammler> 9493 marcel 20 0 409m 40m 10m R 47 0.5 1:31.19 ./openttd
08:58:38 <V453000> why is it a waste?
08:58:52 <V453000> I mean ... what is that much worse with it
08:58:56 <Ammler> because as user I see no difference
08:59:38 <Ammler> V453000: you might got it wrong, droping 8bpp blitter would not mean you can't use the 8bpp newgrfs :-)
09:00:06 <V453000> probably :p
09:00:18 <V453000> just trying to understand
09:00:29 <Ammler> I mean, those 2 openttd looked exactly the same, I didn't use any 32bpp sprites
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09:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "no diffference" doesn't pass as "worse" around here
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09:03:01 <Ammler> hmm, did I use the word "worse"?
09:03:27 <Ammler> I just said, supporting 8bpp is waste of time
09:04:08 <Pawz> how about supporting a 32bpp repository that sorts things by sprite number
09:04:18 <Ammler> Pawz: just use nml
09:04:19 <Pawz> that wouldn't be a waste of time! ;)
09:04:43 <Ammler> nml does the numbering for you
09:04:47 <V453000> but why is 8bpp a waste of time :) Do you mean it is better to draw 32bpp sprites, or just that 32bpp should be used regardless of the sprites
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09:04:57 <Ammler> V453000: no
09:05:05 <Ammler> it is just waste of time for the devs here
09:05:09 <Pawz> just a question.. how bad does a 32bpp sprite look when run as 8b?
09:05:30 <planetmaker> it doesn't look
09:05:31 <Ammler> as openttd 32bpp can happily use the 8bpp sprites without any drawback
09:05:41 <planetmaker> vice versa: no difference
09:05:59 <V453000> I see, thanks
09:06:07 <Ammler> Pawz: we have some "ugly" 32bpp houses in opengfx
09:06:12 <planetmaker> Ammler: here consistently 32bpp uses a few % more CPU
09:06:15 <peter1138> has anyone tried it?
09:06:21 <planetmaker> like 2...5%
09:06:57 <Ammler> but as always with 32bpp it is wrongly also meant with ez
09:06:59 <planetmaker> and 5MB more ram (38 vs. 43)
09:07:08 <Ammler> and the houses might be ugly because those were for ez
09:07:50 <planetmaker> opengfx-8bpp needs less noisy houses, too
09:08:01 * planetmaker likes swedish-houses style
09:08:22 <peter1138> "someone" should do a complete set in sketchup ;)
09:08:44 <Ammler> V453000: you would still need to draw 8bpp, if you like to stay with retrolook
09:09:15 <V453000> well I mainly think that drawing in many more colours is much harder to do
09:09:36 <Ammler> but if 32bpp doesn't support animations, it is useless anyway
09:09:40 <V453000> maybe isnt, dont know
09:09:41 <planetmaker> Ammler: it does
09:09:55 <Ammler> planetmaker: palette animations
09:10:00 <peter1138> it does, but only palette animation
09:10:03 <planetmaker> it does
09:10:10 <Ammler> hmm - hmm
09:10:11 <planetmaker> hm, only palette animation?!
09:10:23 <appe> "swedish-houses style"?
09:10:31 <planetmaker> the rest has nothing to do with blitter
09:10:32 <Ammler> peter1138: might just said it wrong
09:10:34 <peter1138> as opposed to random changes within the sprite
09:10:35 <V453000> appe: newGRF
09:10:35 <planetmaker> the "normal" animation
09:10:50 <peter1138> which isn't anything special about 32pp
09:10:53 <peter1138> +b
09:10:54 <planetmaker> peter1138: what random changes?
09:11:10 <Pawz> isn't the 'normal' animation just a matter of flipping between sprites?
09:11:11 <planetmaker> appe: like the swedish-houses newgrf
09:11:20 <planetmaker> it's the nicest house newgrf around IMHO
09:11:27 <planetmaker> maybe next to ttrs
09:11:32 <peter1138> meh, *i* know what i mean :p
09:11:37 <planetmaker> but they're a bit different style
09:11:40 <appe> oh, ok
09:11:57 <peter1138> not sure if i've seen swedish houses
09:12:03 <peter1138> but TAI looks quite nice
09:12:22 <Ammler> does TAI have own graphics in the meantime?
09:12:36 <peter1138> always did
09:14:12 <peter1138> (yes, they're *very* *very* similar to the original graphics)
09:23:47 <Terkhen> :P
09:24:05 <Pawz> hey quick question
09:24:10 <Pawz> how do I swap blitters?
09:25:35 <planetmaker> by restarting openttd with another blitter :-)
09:25:59 <planetmaker> openttd -b blittername
09:26:01 <Pawz> by googling blitter & openttd to figure out the config
09:26:02 <Pawz> :)
09:26:22 <planetmaker> you know... you even got a readme
09:27:03 <Pawz> hey it animates my 32bpp stuff
09:27:19 <Pawz> well, the smoke on my power plant at least
09:28:10 <planetmaker> yes
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10:11:09 <peter1138> lull
10:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> your tongue is numb?
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10:26:15 <peter1138> yay, fancy antialiased text with shadows ;p
10:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't know, i only ever used the sprite font...
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10:28:24 <peter1138> hmm, 32bpp-anim still has the alpha bug
10:28:58 <Yexo> what alpha bug?
10:30:01 <Pawz> oh man changing the font size & type in the config makes it SO much easier to read
10:32:10 <Terkhen> yes :P
10:34:50 <Rubidium> Yexo: the one where animated colours don't propagate through transparent stuff
10:35:18 <peter1138> yexo, this one...
10:35:28 <Pawz> hey is there a way to change a group of vehicle's service times at the same time?
10:35:48 <peter1138> can't remember what caused it now :S
10:36:00 <Yexo> peter1138: what part of your image?
10:36:08 <peter1138> the text
10:36:19 <peter1138> it's meant to be antialiased
10:36:24 <Yexo> ah
10:36:34 <peter1138> it's not a font issue though, it's a rendering problem
10:36:48 <Yexo> that's a differnet problem than what rb mentioned, right?
10:36:52 <peter1138> think so
10:37:07 <Yexo> which font is that?
10:37:20 <peter1138> can't remember, it's old. i think it's arial
10:37:47 <peter1138> i'll get a current one
10:38:27 <peter1138>
10:38:33 <peter1138> bit clearer :)
10:38:51 <peter1138> (also demonstrates the nicer text shadow)
10:40:08 <peter1138> ((also we need kerning :p))
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10:43:03 <peter1138> only happens with 32bpp-anim, not the other 32bpp blitters
10:43:24 <Yexo> I can't reproduce it yet
10:44:45 <peter1138> happens less often with palette animation enabled, but still occurs
10:45:40 <b_jonas> aren't you taking the "newspaper" thing too seriously? just because openttd shows a "newspaper" doesn't mean text has to have press quality.
10:45:41 <Yexo> This is what I get, which looks fine
10:46:01 <peter1138> ok, make sure palette animation is off, then on the main menu, open up the newgrf settings window, then close it...
10:46:31 <Yexo> palette animation is the "full animation" buttin in game right?
10:46:33 <Yexo> that one was already off
10:46:36 <peter1138> yes
10:46:48 <Pawz> I'm sad I can't get 32bpp vehicles working with FIRS
10:46:54 <Yexo> opening and closing the newgrf window indeed reproduced it
10:53:41 <Terkhen> Pawz: why not?
10:54:06 <Pawz> Terkhen: because I can't find a newGRF that enables FIRS cargos without overwriting the 32bpp vehicles
10:54:18 <Terkhen> oh, I see
10:55:10 <peter1138> old wagons new cargos?
10:55:38 <Pawz> i'll give it a shot
10:58:34 <Pawz> aha! that works.. for trains
10:59:10 <Pawz> too bad there isn't another one for boats & trucks
11:02:30 <Pawz> although... hmm this Refit RV one looks like it works
11:02:32 <Pawz> cool
11:02:33 <Pawz> :)
11:03:23 <Pawz> took me half a week but I think I finally have a working 32bpp version that's reasonably playable
11:03:43 <b_jonas> Pawz: next challenge: get extra zoom playable too
11:03:52 <Pawz> It is :D
11:04:00 <Pawz> That's what I'm working with at least
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11:04:17 <planetmaker> b_jonas: the real challenge is to get openttd playable with only 32bpp
11:04:30 <Pawz> this looks incredible
11:04:45 <Pawz> amusing I note that the vehicle windows are done in 8bpp
11:06:49 <b_jonas> (or rotatable)
11:07:24 <Pawz> rotatable isn't necessary
11:07:51 <b_jonas> well, I'd settle with much less actually
11:07:57 <b_jonas> better transparency options
11:08:49 <b_jonas> namely: a way to hide smoke from power plants (preferably automatically done if you set industries to transparent),
11:09:22 <b_jonas> a way to somehow indicate trees without them covering everything (perhaps show them as tree stumps),
11:10:03 <b_jonas> a button on the transparency toolbar to hide fences around railway tracks (currently you need to turn "full detail" off),
11:10:07 <b_jonas> etc
11:10:26 <Pawz> I'd just prefer starting with 32bpp base set completely done :)
11:11:28 <peter1138> that'd be nice
11:12:00 <b_jonas> as for the vehicle windows, assume the camera is attached to the vehicle so it's of worse quality than the normal view which uses real TV cameras
11:12:41 <Pawz> heh it actually doesn't look bad
11:12:49 <Pawz> since it's at the standard zoom
11:13:56 <Pawz> hmm lol how do you tell a whole group of like 15 busses that they need to maintain themselves a little more often than once every 150 days
11:15:06 <appe> appe wants ipad compatible openttd, puh-leaze
11:15:22 <b_jonas> Pawz: sell all, recreate them with clone?
11:15:38 <Pawz> hmm was hoping there was something like shared orders
11:15:49 <Pawz> I guess I'll just insert a shared go to depot order
11:16:31 <b_jonas> that works too
11:18:09 <b_jonas> I should figure out how to best optimize the depots of my trains
11:18:55 <Pawz> I'm tempted to pack this entire openTTD folder up into a zip and post it on the forum
11:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's legally questional
11:20:17 <Pawz> is it?
11:20:27 <__ln__> it is.
11:20:38 <Yexo> there are several tar files for 32bpp (ez) that have no license file
11:20:47 <Yexo> which in effect means you're not allowed to redistribute them
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11:21:03 <norbert79> Yexo: Unless approval from original creator
11:21:05 <Pawz> well I'm not using any ez
11:21:09 <Pawz> tar files
11:21:24 <Pawz> what ez tar files? heh
11:21:33 <Pawz> are there more??
11:21:47 <Yexo> more than what?
11:21:53 <Yexo> did you look in jupix repository?
11:21:58 <norbert79> Pawz: You can only distribute material, for which you have the license included or got written approval from original creator.
11:22:07 <norbert79> Pawz: Just saying in general
11:22:48 <planetmaker> Pawz: posting sprites you have no permission to distribute, especially in our forums will not make you friends and you'll find that file or link thereto removed pretty quickly
11:23:12 <Pawz> *shrug* Just wanting to help people find all these graphics
11:23:38 <Pawz> so rehosting a tar is bad?
11:23:40 <planetmaker> Pawz: that's not the problem
11:23:50 <norbert79> Pawz: Well, what I do normally for myself is, that I download (almost) every possible NewGRF, and create one ZIP for my own use
11:23:50 <Yexo> Pawz: that depends on the license
11:23:51 <planetmaker> the problem is you *may not* distribute many of the sprites
11:23:52 <Pawz> (like the nightly jupix build)
11:24:00 <__ln__> however rehosting a tar does need a permission from the author (or license that permits it)
11:24:16 <planetmaker> or rather *must not*
11:24:23 <Yexo> A way to circumvent the problem is to create a list of links to the original locations instead of rehosting the file
11:24:36 <Yexo> that way if the original file is updated people will automatically download the updated file
11:24:40 <planetmaker> yes
11:25:04 <Pawz> I see why you want to make all the 32bpp stuff available under the same license -_-
11:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose we already have like 10 "lists of links" to 32bpp files, that are all somewhat unmaintained and outdated
11:25:39 <norbert79> Pawz: One license solves the problem. For example that's why I prefer Creative Commons, easy to modify the terms to your needs...
11:26:13 <norbert79> Pawz: Or GPL...
11:26:38 <Pawz> OpenTTD is GPL right?
11:26:49 <norbert79> Pawz: The engine yes
11:27:06 <norbert79> Pawz: So is Duke Nukem 3D, yet the GRP doesn't comes with it
11:27:16 <norbert79> Pawz: and Doom 3 by now afaik
11:27:31 <norbert79> Pawz: Seperate the engine from the graphics/music, etc
11:27:41 <Yexo> Pawz: we're already discussing including the relevant 32bpp sprites in the ogfx+ projects. For that we'll only use sprites with a gpl license
11:28:00 <Yexo> creating a list of files we could use for that would be very useful
11:28:14 <norbert79> Yexo: Easier to implement in OpenTTD, including forcing of releasing the source as well
11:29:00 <norbert79> Pawz: Look at the problem like a Website. You can download Drupal, but to make it look well, you need to work on it, make changes, new graphics, etc...
11:29:13 <Yexo> norbert79: I don't get that. What is easier to implement in OpenTTD?
11:29:25 <norbert79> Yexo: Using GPL... Sorry for the confusion
11:29:48 <norbert79> Yexo: I am just focusing on many things at the same time... :)
11:29:52 <planetmaker> indeed, that might be a good work :-)
11:29:56 <Yexo> how can you "implement" "using GP" ?
11:30:05 <Yexo> sorry, I just don't get it at all
11:30:05 <norbert79> Yexo: never mind, just void my last sentence...
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11:30:41 <planetmaker> Pawz: and are the projects
11:31:18 <norbert79> planetmaker: Will these both be included in OpenGFX?
11:31:24 <norbert79> planetmaker: later on...
11:31:26 <planetmaker> if you gather 32bpp gpl'ed (or cc-by) sprites and create an issue for them it will be helpful
11:31:38 <planetmaker> they're NewGRFs
11:31:56 <norbert79> planetmaker: I mean in the base package...
11:31:57 <planetmaker> but they share the vehicles. As such sprites can be used for the base set, too
11:31:59 <Yexo> norbert79: no, they're separate projects. They do share the look and file with opengfx, but that's all
11:32:34 <norbert79> Yexo: Well, it would be nice having them, since then you could just totally remove the need of using the original GRF-s
11:32:57 <planetmaker> err... you don't need any original grf, do you?
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11:33:30 <planetmaker> and there he goes ;-)
11:33:31 <norbert79> planetmaker: With OpenGFX no, but these two add even more to the game, doesn't it?
11:33:33 <norbert79> lol
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11:33:49 <norbert79> ah, back already
11:33:59 <planetmaker> norbert79: they enhance the vehicles such that they are usable with all industry newgrfs
11:34:05 <Pawz> closed the wrong window :P
11:34:08 <Yexo> yes, ogfx-trains and ogfx-rv add more cargo support and refitability to the original vehicles
11:34:17 <planetmaker> and add a bit extra sugar here and there
11:34:25 <norbert79> planetmaker: But ECS and FIRS do that already, don't they?
11:34:27 <Yexo> that part can never be included in the baseset
11:34:31 <Pawz> so how is that related to 32bpp?
11:34:40 <planetmaker> norbert79: they are industries. they don't change *any* vehicle
11:34:53 <Yexo> not directly. But your original problem was finding a vehicle set that works with 32bpp sprites
11:34:54 <norbert79> planetmaker: No, but still there is a possibility to refit, right?
11:34:56 <planetmaker> using firs w/o a vehicle newgrf will screw your game. same with ecs
11:34:58 <Yexo> we're trying to create one :)
11:35:11 <planetmaker> norbert79: no. They don't change any vehicle
11:35:14 <Pawz> ah i see
11:35:22 <Pawz> although 2 grfs work already :)
11:35:40 <norbert79> planetmaker: Hmm... Are you sure on that (more like a rethorical question)... I remember different...
11:35:41 <Yexo> those grfs are basically much better versions of "old wagons new cargoes"
11:35:44 <Pawz> 'old wagons new cargos' and 'refit default rvs'
11:36:16 <norbert79> planetmaker: I played ECS, and I can remember on changing trains, yet I am not sure on vehicles, that's true
11:36:33 <planetmaker> norbert79: you must have used train and rv grfs.
11:36:41 <planetmaker> or you would only be able to transport the default cargos
11:36:45 <norbert79> planetmaker: Probably, wasn't playing in single
11:37:53 <Pawz> aha! opengfx + trains works with 32bpps
11:38:06 <Pawz> why didn't you say so in the first place? lol
11:38:32 <planetmaker> I didn't know :-)
11:38:41 <Pawz> oh wait
11:38:44 <Pawz> it doesn't change the bus
11:38:45 <Pawz> dangit
11:38:53 <planetmaker> well. +trains only changes rail vehicles
11:38:54 <Pawz> the cargo trucks are 8bpp
11:38:58 <Pawz> yeah i got both
11:39:58 <Pawz> ok, so you're looking for gpl / similar 32bpp graphic sets
11:40:14 <Pawz> so you can include 'em by default in the +trains and rv's set?
11:40:33 <planetmaker> Pawz: yes, we need the 32bpp sprites which correspond to the rail and road vehicles as found in ogfx+trains and ogx+rv
11:40:38 <Yexo> exactly :)
11:40:55 <planetmaker> which would mostly be like the vehicles found in the base set
11:41:07 <norbert79> planetmaker: Any specific palette needs for creating 32bpp sprites?
11:41:25 <planetmaker> dunno
11:41:26 <Yexo> norbert79: no, it's 32bpp, not paletted images
11:41:40 <planetmaker> I'm not sure how CC and 2CC is handled
11:41:41 <Yexo> you only need a mask file with the default palette for the company colours
11:41:47 <norbert79> Yexo: I know, but some colours might be still have some specific needs, or does 32bpp uses alpha channels?
11:41:48 <planetmaker> that'll need some specific colours
11:41:53 <planetmaker> ah
11:42:06 <norbert79> Yexo: That's already a palette need in my definiton
11:42:07 <norbert79> :)
11:42:09 <Yexo> afaik 32bpp uses the alpha channels
11:42:20 <PeanutHorst> ...
11:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> afair 32bpp uses an overlay for company colours
11:42:22 <PeanutHorst> daaaaaaaaaamn
11:42:25 <PeanutHorst> i just set up a vactrain line
11:42:31 <PeanutHorst> daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn.
11:42:31 <norbert79> Yexo: Ok, so alpha channels then... Does this includes transparency, like PNG images use?
11:42:42 <Yexo> I think so
11:42:43 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: alpha IS transparency. so yes.
11:42:48 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: Not always...
11:43:02 <peter1138> hmm, weird, i didn't know that openttd "manually" drew shadows for small text of town names
11:43:06 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: have seen alpha's being handled only for 'transparency", but opacity handling lacked
11:43:16 <Yexo> norbert79: see
11:43:21 <norbert79> Yexo: Cheers
11:43:28 <PeanutHorst> norbert79: yes, that's 1-bit alpha
11:43:34 <PeanutHorst> also called bit mask
11:43:44 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: I know them, thank you...
11:44:11 <PeanutHorst> if it's 8-bit alpha, you're representing opacity, so in the context of 32bpp (8bpp of RGB + 8bpp alpha) it /is/ transparency
11:45:37 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: Ok, let me put this different: does 32bpp able make difference for one pixel if it's fully transparent or not, or is it only able to understand if a pixel is used at one point or not
11:45:55 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: I am asking if I have to consider the usagae and avoid specific colours
11:46:05 <norbert79> PeanutHorst: or the game is able to handle it like PNG files
11:47:26 <peter1138> basically we cheated
11:47:31 <peter1138> there's two images
11:47:39 <peter1138> one is fully 32bpp with 8bit alpha etc
11:47:44 <PeanutHorst> ah. well, I haven't got into making NewGRFs yet, so i'd say err to the side of caution until a dev tells you otherwise
11:47:55 <peter1138> the other contains an 8bpp image containing colours to be remapped
11:48:01 <norbert79> peter1138: I see
11:48:11 <peter1138> so you can use any colour in the 32bpp part
11:48:34 <norbert79> so basically for 8bit the palette (I guess Windows based) must stay
11:48:42 <peter1138> you're restricted to the original 8bpp palette for any remapped part, which is probably fine for normal-size sprites
11:48:52 <norbert79> Understood
11:49:42 <peter1138> of course, getting an image editor that supports paletted and nonpaletted layers might be tricky :)
11:50:16 <norbert79> GIMP
11:50:21 <norbert79> oh, wait
11:50:22 <norbert79> no
11:50:46 <norbert79> well, first the image is being crerated, then I simply converti it back to RGB
11:50:49 <norbert79> simple
11:50:57 <norbert79> after I applied the palette
11:51:08 <norbert79> not really a big deal
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11:57:24 <norbert79> peter1138: So if I understand you correctly such images are possible with generic image editing with 32bpp
11:57:25 <norbert79>
11:57:32 <norbert79> (white is transparency)
11:57:54 <norbert79> Basically an image with fully transparent and opacity
11:58:26 <norbert79> (Example usage: simulating brake rubber burns on airports, using as design element)
11:59:10 <norbert79> (Why 1? Becuase this was ONE example :)) )
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12:03:20 <Kogut> "Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) reported a data breach involving personally identifiable and protected health information (PII/PHI) impacting an estimated 4.9 million military clinic and hospital patients."
12:03:28 <Kogut> (data) "may include Social Security numbers, addresses and phone numbers, and some personal health data such as clinical notes, laboratory tests and prescriptions."
12:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... assume i use ply in the generate script, does that clash with the parsetab file from nmlc?
12:03:42 <Kogut> *The risk of harm to patients is judged to be low despite the data elements involved since retrieving the data on the tapes would require knowledge of and access to specific hardware and software and knowledge of the system and data structure.*
12:04:00 <norbert79> Kogut: The US Army?
12:04:43 <Kogut> yes
12:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Kogut: aka "we trust in security by obfuscation"?
12:04:45 <norbert79> Kogut: If yes, they release many standards of their own, including sometimes system specific things, and it also seems, that the human side isn't also well trained.
12:05:04 <Kogut>
12:05:06 <norbert79> Kogut: There are the ARTEP, FM's, etc, many different releases availlable
12:05:22 <norbert79> Kogut: it's not that impossible to do
12:05:49 <norbert79> Kogut: if one spends enough time understanding the structure, and how they work, it can be done within months/weeks
12:06:11 <Kogut> and bonus "The unfortunate event happened last month when the data was stolen from the car of a SAIC employee in San Antonio."
12:07:13 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: by default yes, but you can change the name of in your code
12:07:18 <norbert79> Kogut: Well, generals and admirals won't be happy...
12:07:37 <norbert79> Kogut: I think full disk encryption is in effect at the army too
12:07:47 <norbert79> Kogut: am suprised it was still to be accessed
12:07:52 <Kogut> "personal health data such as clinical notes, laboratory tests and prescriptions" <- I can imagine use of things like "general A is deadly allergic to foo food"
12:09:07 <Kogut> @Yexo - is it possible to group AIObject::DoCommand in way "do all or nothing"?
12:09:22 <Yexo> no
12:09:48 <Yexo> you could execute all of them is testmode, if all succeed execute all
12:12:00 <Kogut> Maybe it will be better create new command code, CMD_BUILD_RAIL_WAYPOINT_RECTANGLE
12:13:00 <Yexo> why? CmdBUildRailWaypoint can already build a multi-tile waypoint
12:14:11 <Kogut> Oh, now I see it. Thanks.
12:15:20 <Kogut> is it OK to use EnforcePrecondition in a loop?
12:15:36 <Kogut> @Yexo ^
12:15:59 <Yexo> could be, but most likely it can be used outisde it too
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12:17:39 <Yexo> Kogut: just remove the "@pre GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW || GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NW_SE" precondition for the rectangle function
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12:18:57 <Kogut> why?
12:19:20 <Kogut> it is still required to check tiles - all tiles in this case
12:19:28 <Yexo> to avoid the "precondition in a loop" problem
12:19:29 <Kogut> so I will do it in a loop
12:19:35 <Yexo> and the cmd will already check all tiles
12:19:40 <Yexo> no need to duplicate that check
12:19:45 <Kogut> OK
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12:28:41 <Kogut> width_between_tile_and_tile2 = abs(GetTileX(tile), GetTileX(tile2)) <- is it correct
12:29:38 <Yexo> add 1 to that
12:29:48 <Yexo> abs(5, 5) == 0
12:30:02 <Yexo> and the comma in the middle should be a minus
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12:33:06 <peter1138>
12:33:09 <peter1138>
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12:33:44 <Yexo> newshadow looks a lot better
12:35:04 <norbert79> aye, but I would use 60% of transparency maximally... it looks way to focused
12:35:14 <norbert79> less 'strong' would look nicer
12:35:14 <planetmaker> the new one is much clearer
12:35:27 <planetmaker> much less blurred
12:36:09 <planetmaker> in comparison the old one looks like badly jpg-compressed ;-)
12:36:10 <norbert79> looks a bit overused to me... I wouldn't set a shadow under each font, only for those, where focus is needed
12:36:42 <peter1138> norbert79, ttd's *always* had that shadow
12:37:05 <norbert79> never really seen it... :)
12:37:18 <peter1138> it's only not there for black text
12:37:22 <norbert79> maybe that's why it disturbs me a bit, because of neater resolution on the fonts :)
12:37:32 <peter1138> (oh, and it's only there on the middle-size text)
12:40:49 <norbert79> planetmaker: Possible using different shadow colour?
12:41:00 <norbert79> planetmaker: darker orange would look better...
12:41:07 <planetmaker> don't ask me, please
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12:41:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: Sorry...
12:42:48 <peter1138> dark orange shadow?
12:42:53 <norbert79> peter1138: Moment
12:43:04 <peter1138> i'm not going to change any text colours, heh
12:47:38 <norbert79> peter1138:
12:47:56 <norbert79> First: black shadow
12:47:58 <peter1138> on the title? lol
12:48:05 <norbert79> It was just a demonstration
12:48:07 <peter1138> i'm not doing anything with the title
12:48:18 <Yexo> the title are just sprites anyway, not "text"
12:48:25 <norbert79> Not the title, it's basically a demo of what I was thinking of
12:48:37 <norbert79> using not the black as shadow
12:49:42 <norbert79> Instead of 000000 I was using E9C030
12:50:00 <norbert79> Looks better for orange coloured text
12:50:09 <peter1138> heh
12:50:21 <peter1138> well, colour remaps still use palette entries
12:50:43 <norbert79> Even the 8bit palette has some nice colours... :)
12:50:51 <norbert79> not just black ;-)
12:51:24 <norbert79> unless the same shadow colour would be used everywhere
12:51:55 <peter1138> it is, yes
12:52:00 <norbert79> Dang
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13:48:45 <Timur> Hello
13:48:53 <planetmaker> hello
13:49:31 <Timur> I'm having some trouble with my town growth, and was wondering if someone could provide insight into why there's no growth.
13:50:08 <planetmaker> switched off maybe?
13:50:14 <Terkhen> we need more info :P
13:50:32 <Timur> I guessed so :P 2sec, I'll list it.
13:50:43 <planetmaker> it = provide savegame link ;-)
13:51:15 <Timur> Ah, ok. Where can I upload it?
13:53:08 <michi_cc> peter1138: Looks a lot better, commit it :)
13:54:18 <planetmaker> dunno... whereever one can upload stuff
13:55:05 <planetmaker> make sure that there are free roads near the town, so that it can expand
13:55:18 <Timur>
13:55:22 <Timur> There's my save.
13:55:22 <planetmaker> a town circled by rail usually has a very hard time to grow
13:55:32 <Kogut> why there's no growth. - you modified seed tile, under town name, right?
13:55:57 <Timur> The town only has rail on one side, the other three are free, and premade roads for growth.
13:56:18 <planetmaker> Kogut, town centre +- 2 tiles are searched for a road piece to start the search for growth from
13:56:53 <Timur> I have no idea what you guys are talking about :P
13:57:05 <Kogut> anyway, large station in central part can kill towngrowth
13:57:07 <planetmaker> the road piece under the town name
13:57:13 <planetmaker> in the centre of the town
13:57:17 <Kogut> and it easier to ask about single tile
13:58:00 <planetmaker> it's even easier to say "towns don't grow" ;-)
13:59:11 <planetmaker> hmpf... my openttd here lacks lzma. Which sucks
13:59:22 <Timur> Have anyone checked out my save?
13:59:54 <planetmaker> seems I can't load it right now for reasons which are not your fault
14:00:22 <Timur> I'm using OTTD 1.1.2 if it's any help.
14:00:53 <planetmaker> well. did you check the town growth setting?
14:01:05 <planetmaker> how long did you look / wait to observe growth?
14:01:20 <planetmaker> How well is the town serviced / how many stations within its vicinity?
14:01:36 <planetmaker> did you change either date or newgrfs?
14:01:55 <planetmaker> do you use the uk houses and industry grf?
14:02:14 <Timur> I started in 1976,and I'm in 2005 now.
14:02:22 <Yexo> Timur: see
14:02:26 <Timur> I use original everything :P
14:02:35 <Timur> Only names are different
14:02:39 <Yexo> building 5 stations instead of only 1 helps town growth
14:02:52 <Timur> I've read the wiki.
14:03:38 <Timur> The town has been receving steady passangers/water/food for alteast 10-20 years.
14:04:07 <PeanutHorst> Yexo: do they need to be actual seperate stations for that?
14:04:09 <Kogut> on my trunk openttd city is growing
14:04:16 <Yexo> PeanutHorst: yes
14:04:24 <PeanutHorst> Yexo: welp, i'm doomed
14:04:31 <peter1138> michi_cc, < another patch to be forgotten in the mists of time :p
14:04:38 <Timur> Its max size has been 3000, but then it decreases, and swings between 2000 and 3000.
14:05:09 <planetmaker> peter1138, then go for it...
14:05:34 <michi_cc> peter1138: Does it really need a setting? Just enable it unconditionally...
14:05:49 <planetmaker> uh, setting?
14:05:52 <peter1138> praps :p
14:06:16 <planetmaker> yeah. fancy stuff should be default :-)
14:06:24 <planetmaker> and then a setting like "ugly fonts"
14:06:48 <planetmaker> (i.e. I'm with michi, no setting needed)
14:06:58 <Kogut> @Timur - I added 5 serviced bus stations in city
14:07:06 <peter1138> k
14:07:29 <Timur> Kogut: Individual stations?
14:08:14 <Kogut> @Timur - yes
14:08:21 <Timur> Also, does it grow bigger?
14:08:22 <Kogut> 3,133
14:08:28 <Kogut> 3,200
14:08:49 <planetmaker> that's probably one house difference :-)
14:09:12 <Kogut> 3,300
14:09:30 <Kogut> @planetmaker "Its max size has been 3000, but then it decreases, and swings between 2000 and 3000."
14:09:42 <Belugas> hello
14:09:45 <Kogut> and 3,500
14:09:50 <Kogut> hi
14:10:08 <planetmaker> salut Belugas
14:10:38 <Timur> Sweet, in other older games I've managed to get a town up to 16k, and was confused to why this one wouldn't grow.
14:11:03 <planetmaker> Timur, make it a challange, grow it to one million ;-)
14:11:05 <PeanutHorst> woot, profit of £2,510,000 last year in openttd, i'm on the gravy maglev now :D
14:11:21 <Kogut> 4,100
14:11:49 <Kogut> 4,200 ande openttd is compiled
14:12:34 <Timur> Wow, I just added 4 stations, with a total of 5 in the town, and its grown to almost 3000 now :D
14:12:42 <Timur> Thanks guys!
14:13:01 <planetmaker> ;-)
14:13:04 <Timur> @planetmaker: Is it possible to get a million sized city?
14:13:12 <Kogut> @Timur - drop & load station are rather poor idea
14:13:24 <Timur> Whats that?
14:13:29 <planetmaker> download and look yourself ;-)
14:13:32 <Timur> hehe
14:13:37 <planetmaker> it's a savegame
14:13:49 <V453000> he :)
14:13:51 <Kogut> Your train are loading and unloading cargo on the same station
14:14:29 <Timur> Do i have that on any stations? I usually build from raw product -> industry
14:14:34 <Kogut> it is inefficient and can result in a deadlock
14:14:56 <Kogut> see station near food factory
14:15:08 <V453000> anything can result in a deadlock if you put it that way :)
14:15:30 <planetmaker> V453000, a one-way circle has a hard time to dead-lock ;-)
14:15:32 <Kogut> it is possible to have higher ratings with more full load trains
14:15:57 <Kogut> it is funny how AI can manage to produce deadlock
14:16:00 <Timur> I thought all my trains were "Stay untill fully loaded" ?
14:16:17 <Kogut> yes, but you can add more to have higher station rating
14:16:29 <Kogut> what will result in deadlock with your design
14:16:29 <Timur> I have no idea what that is.
14:16:35 <Kogut> deadlock?
14:16:41 <Timur> No, station rating
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14:16:52 <Timur> Isn
14:17:17 <Timur> Isn't deadlock just a traffic jam with the front trains stopped?
14:17:30 <Kogut> see station window and switch to rating (button on the bottom of the window)
14:17:38 <Kogut> @deadlock - yes
14:17:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: imagine a station with 3 platforms, 2 platforms are filled with loading food, only one is available for dropping off grain. now imagine a 3rd food train occupying that 3rd platform, no grain can ever be delivered anymore
14:17:53 <Kogut> better station rating -> more cargo -> more fun
14:18:21 <Timur> That little red/green bar?
14:19:01 <Kogut> population reached 5,600
14:19:17 <V453000> pm: I almost figured :P
14:19:18 <Timur> My foodfactory staion is based on perpetual delivery, so that there's almost always one train ready to go.
14:19:41 <Timur> My population is still just under 3k
14:20:10 <Kogut> well, create 5 bus stations add service (I use 20 busses) and fast forward
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14:20:22 <Kogut> 5,700 in 2012
14:20:25 <Timur> 20 busses? I have 3 :P
14:20:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: you can solve this situation with waypoints like here:,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png ore trains take the right waypoint (from their view), and can reach all 3 platforms, steel trains take the left waypoint and can only reach two platforms
14:21:01 <norbert79> Timur: For one city of 3 stations I always start 4 buses, with a delay to each station, the forth one is going always around
14:21:34 <planetmaker> V453000, see, almost. Now you know :-P
14:21:36 * planetmaker hugs V453000
14:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> => there can never be all 3 platforms occupied with steel trains
14:21:46 <norbert79> Timur: Sometimes I assign busses zones, where they can work
14:23:06 <Timur> @Eddi: Do you have one station for unloading and one for loading?
14:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: in this picture, no. it's a combined station, but with two separate entrances
14:23:59 <Timur> Thats what i meant :P
14:25:14 <Kogut> @Timur and 6,000 in 2014
14:25:35 <Timur> I've played OTTD for a while, but my building skills are poor :P
14:25:50 <Timur> I'm at 2641 in 2007
14:26:00 <Timur> which is down 200 for the last year
14:26:19 <PeanutHorst> ARGH
14:26:30 <PeanutHorst> why is there such a thing as an "impossible track combination" when you're laying diagonal?
14:26:39 <V453000> :P
14:26:57 <PeanutHorst> as an engineering feat, it's quite possible and rather efficient
14:27:19 <norbert79> Timur: Play more online games when OTTD-ing, you can learn a few tricks from other players too
14:27:53 <Timur> I usually just play with friends or alone, mostly just for fun and while watching movies.
14:27:57 <planetmaker> PeanutHorst, on slopes
14:30:02 <norbert79> Timur: Not much to learn from that then... :)))
14:30:15 <Timur> Hehe, yes, I know.
14:31:11 <norbert79> Timur: - I know, I might have overdone this, but still might be worth taking a look... Haven't play this scenario for a long time though :(
14:32:15 <Timur> Thats a bit out of my league :P
14:32:33 <Kogut> @Timur - and I plan to make in next two years AI that will be able to create your network. Sometimes. On easy settings. And then it will be one the best available.
14:32:44 <PeanutHorst> planetmaker: no, that's "land sloped in wrong direction"
14:32:57 <norbert79> Kogut: Well, I am curious, so keep it up... :)
14:32:59 <PeanutHorst> i'm talking about putting ... say... a maglev and a conventional rail side-by-side
14:33:03 <Timur> @Kogut, in 2008 my town has decreased a further 100, down to 2500
14:33:21 <norbert79> Timur: Interest rates... Check acceptance ratings
14:33:39 <Timur> Where do i check that?
14:33:49 <norbert79> Timur: Click one station, and check your ratings
14:34:23 <Timur> Just over 50% in my main town.
14:34:35 <norbert79> Such a pity noone broadcasts any games, anywhere... :)
14:35:29 <Kogut> Well, there is possibility to enter as spectator into multilayer game
14:35:48 <norbert79> Kogut: Sure, but many tend just playing for themselves
14:36:09 <norbert79> Kogut: And opening a multiplayer game with maximum 1 player allowed isn't very well solved either :)
14:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... query tool doesn't mention railtype
14:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> only speed limit
14:41:41 <norbert79> Love today's XKCD comic :)
14:41:44 <norbert79> Well done
14:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i get it...
14:43:29 <norbert79> The ball is like the hourglass in Windows
14:43:39 <norbert79> it looks like a flame if you look long enough on it
14:43:46 <norbert79> Since Steve Jobs passed away...
14:44:42 <Sacro> wtf
14:44:44 <Sacro> xkcd on a thursday
14:44:52 <norbert79> Sacro: Why not? :)
14:45:07 <Sacro> norbert79: quite
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14:45:08 <Timur> I guess its a special one, since Jobs passed.
14:45:45 <norbert79> Well, was expected... He resigned, his book was out...
14:46:00 <Timur> Yes, but there was hoping.
14:46:03 <norbert79> Sure
14:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd not have said hourglass, but rather the thingy that tells you youtube videos are buffering...
14:46:19 <norbert79> but since he got thinner with every year it started being obvious... :(
14:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but where do you see a flame?
14:46:45 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: never mind... Anyway, the thingy in youtube are circles in a circle form
14:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, round and turning...
14:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is this my fault or NuTrack's fault? ICE1 goes on very high speed rail and very low speed rail, but not on medium speed rail
14:48:08 <planetmaker> well, it's the "busy, please wait" cursor
14:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause> ICE1 with 14 middle wagons has 910 capacity and is 12.7 tiles long
14:50:21 <Timur> @Kogut: My town is still not growing as much as yours. It peaked at 3200, and now in 2010 its at 2900
14:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: then your bus service is not good enough
14:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: need to visit the stations more often
14:51:07 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Does the track for your ICE go near Enschede? ;-)
14:51:11 <Timur> I've got 5 stations in the city, and busses coming and going the entire time
14:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: what would my ICE do in the netherlands?
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14:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you meant Eschede)
14:52:11 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Oops, yes, typo
14:52:24 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Because that would explain why it goes that slow :)
14:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: i didn't say it goes slow
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14:53:23 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Lovely, I also misread you... I think I need a break for today...
14:53:31 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Had to re-read
14:54:48 <norbert79> See you all
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14:59:45 <Timur> Is there somewhere I can check out some very good networks, yet simple enought so that I can replicate it.
15:00:53 <planetmaker> good or simple? ;-)
15:01:07 <Timur> Better than the crap i have :P
15:03:36 <planetmaker> I can only offer good and not simple :-)
15:03:45 <planetmaker> just from the link I posted earlier.
15:03:49 <planetmaker> it has over 200 savegames
15:04:09 * Terkhen never *really* needed anything besides three way junctions and once a simple four way junction
15:04:31 <planetmaker> 4-way tend to get very bulky and complicated :-)
15:04:36 <planetmaker> often two 3-way are easier :-)
15:04:40 <Terkhen> yes, it is best to avoid them
15:04:45 <Terkhen> it was on a small map IIRC
15:04:57 <Terkhen> therefore the 4 way junction was small and it didn't work anyways
15:05:02 <planetmaker> especially when talking about tracks with LL_RR or more per direction :-)
15:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i can only offer aesthetic, neither good nor simple
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15:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: should we scrape 1lu of the ICE3 head, so a full ICE3 fits on exactly 6 tiles?
15:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 6 tiles = 6*32 = 196m, ICE3 length = 200m
15:12:25 <Timur> Yay! My town just reached 4k :)
15:12:56 <peter1138> m?
15:13:01 <peter1138> miles ;)
15:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> meters, obviously
15:13:11 <peter1138> 6*32 is 192, btw
15:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever
15:13:26 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that might be an idea
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15:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know whether it is achievable to fit a full ICE1 in 12 tiles, it's 10lu longer
15:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but 12 tiles sounds like a more sensible measure than 13 tiles
15:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> we need engines that are both dualheaded and articulated... providing the ICE1 as full articulated train is crazy
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15:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Timur: this was my latest network:,%205.%20Nov%201988.png (12MB)
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15:25:56 <supermop> good morning
15:27:17 <Timur> Well, I'm off. Thanks for the help guys.
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15:37:14 <b_jonas> I need three-way junctions, but I find it difficult to make them, because I have space constraints
15:37:47 <b_jonas> because I've generated the map with lots of industries and towns, everything is cramped
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15:43:44 <peter1138> heh, google searches for "cheats" instead of "cets"
15:44:01 <peter1138> but it doesn't tell you its done the substitution
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15:58:27 <Yexo> peter1138: it doesn't do that for me. I get "Child exploitation tracking system" and "copmuting and educational technology services" as results 1 and 2
15:58:54 * Prof_Frink copmutes Yexo
15:59:26 <peter1138> oh
15:59:32 <peter1138> oh "cets openttd"
16:00:21 <planetmaker> <-- peter1138
16:01:01 <Yexo> peter1138: at the bottom of the search results: "Tip: These results include the word "cheats". Show results that include only "cets"."
16:01:38 <planetmaker> bye for today
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16:04:15 <peter1138> is it normally at the bottom now?
16:04:22 <peter1138> it used to be at the top
16:04:40 <peter1138> i.e. Did you mean: openttd
16:04:47 <peter1138> which is still there if you misspell something. hmm.
16:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "did you mean: cheats" at the top for me
16:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "Centre for European and Transition Studies - University of Latvia"
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16:31:08 <peter1138> oh, it's you
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16:55:48 <Kogut> @Yexo - I finished my noai API patch, can you look at ?
16:56:04 <Yexo> - * @param keep_rail Whether to keep the rail after removal. <- why do you remove that line?
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16:56:21 <Yexo> the documentation of BuildRailWaypointTileRectangle is partly incomplete and partly wrong
16:56:30 <Yexo> * @pre IsRailTile(tile). <- that shouldn't be there
16:56:45 <Yexo> there should be something about requiring tile and tile2 to be in a straight line
16:56:59 <Yexo> ie either TileX(tile)==TileX(tile2) or TileY(tile)==TileY(tile)
16:57:17 <Yexo> you're using spaces instead of tabs for alignment
16:57:27 <Kogut> "- * @param keep_rail Whether to keep the rail after removal. <- why do you remove that line?" - it is fault of stupid diff generator
16:57:41 <Yexo> we have a nice template "swap" for swapping variables
16:57:44 <Kogut> "you're using spaces instead of tabs for alignment" - it is fault of forum
16:57:50 <Yexo> just call "swap(tile, tile2);" instead of doing it yourself
16:57:59 <Kogut> the documentation of BuildRailWaypointTileRectangle is partly incomplete and partly wrong <- I will fix it
16:58:09 <Yexo> if that's the case, please attach a diff isntead of including it in your forum post
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16:58:42 <Yexo> your check for swapping is too complicated
16:59:04 <Yexo> the line "if (tile > tile2) swap(tile, tile2);" is enough
16:59:40 <Yexo> you need to make sure that both width and height are < 15 before calling DoCommand
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17:06:03 <Kogut> should be fixed (except IsRailTile - it is again fault of stupid diff generator).
17:06:20 <Kogut> I will check new code with testAI and repost patch
17:06:42 <Kogut> @Yexo "5>..\src\ai\api\ai_rail.cpp(219) : error C3861: 'swap': identifier not found"
17:07:51 <Yexo> add #include "../../core/math_func.hpp" at the top
17:08:17 <Kogut> Swap is working
17:08:28 <Kogut> is it different function?
17:08:45 <Kogut> btw thanks for help
17:22:50 <Kogut> @Yexo also with "#include "../../core/math_func.hpp"" compiling resulted in 5>..\src\ai\api\ai_rail.cpp(220) : error C3861: 'swap': identifier not found
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17:24:15 <Yexo> the function in the stl is called "swap". OpenTTD has it's own version called "Swap"
17:24:52 <Wolf01> evenjobs
17:26:30 <Kogut> Swap changed behaviour of this function, with swap and mentioned include I am unable to compile
17:27:18 <Yexo> swap is from the stl, you'd have to include <algorithm> I think
17:27:34 <Yexo> math_func.hpp is already (indirectly) included or Swap wouldn't work either
17:29:18 <Kogut> and with my idiotic swap variable everything is working
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17:45:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r23007 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt:
17:45:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 52 changes by kazzie
17:46:41 <Kogut> @Yexo tile > tile2 is not the same as AIMap::GetTileY(tile)-AIMap::GetTileY(tile2)>0 || AIMap::GetTileX(tile)-AIMap::GetTileX(tile2>0)
17:47:31 <Yexo> actually it is (as long as tile and tile2 are in a straight line)
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18:01:59 <peter1138> heh, whatever happened to the openttdcoop ts server?
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18:05:33 <TWerkhoven> ts?
18:06:28 <Yexo> teamspeak?
18:06:38 <TWerkhoven> ah
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18:26:20 <Kogut> @Yexo - there is new version ( )
18:26:50 <Kogut> ooops, wrong file
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18:30:32 <Kogut> @Yexo - now I uploaded correct file
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18:31:58 <Yexo> EnforcePrecondition(false, abs(AIMap::GetTileX(tile)-AIMap::GetTileX(tile2)) < 15); <- space too much before "abs" and there have to be spaces around the minus
18:32:31 <Yexo> and I'm missing a precondition "TileX(tile) == TileX(tile2) || TileY(tile) == TileY(tile2)"
18:33:55 <Yexo> * @pre GetRailTracks(tile_in_rectangle) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW || GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NW_SE. <_ if you document it as @pre, it should give a PreconditoinError when it fails
18:34:03 <Yexo> you don't check for it in the function, so don't document it as @pre
18:34:12 <Kogut> OK
18:34:14 <Yexo> perhaps use @note or just put it in the description
18:34:31 <Yexo> * @exception AIError::ERR_FLAT_LAND_REQUIRED <- I don't think you can actually get that error
18:34:32 <Kogut> and I add abs(AIMap::GetTileY(tile) - AIMap::GetTileY(tile2)) < 15) as @pre
18:34:38 <Yexo> you should check which errors you can get and mention those
18:34:52 <Kogut> OK
18:35:12 <Yexo> there is still stray documentation changes for RemoveRailWaypointTileRectangle
18:37:15 <Kogut> So I should describe possible errors using @exception
18:37:20 <Rubidium> isn't it "can be built"?
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19:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling startup is faster in versions before the startup gui was introduced
19:10:43 <Alberth> the magic of a progress bar :)
19:16:29 <Rubidium> nah, the cost of progress
19:17:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r23008 /trunk/src/spriteloader/png.cpp: -Add: Palette detection and conversion for the M part of 32bpp sprites.
19:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause>
19:28:46 <Rubidium> :D
19:28:59 <Kogut> @Yexo - OK, now it should be better ( )
19:31:31 <Rubidium> + * @param tile One corner of the rectangle to clear.
19:31:36 <Rubidium> I hope you're not clearing them
19:31:47 <Rubidium> + * @pre width or rectangle == 1 || height of rectangle == 1
19:31:51 <Rubidium> s/or/of/
19:32:51 <Rubidium> then there's the inconsistency with ending lines of the documentation; always add a period
19:33:02 <Kogut> clear -> "cover with waypoints" (?)
19:33:02 <Rubidium> + * @return Whether the rail waypoint(s) has been/can be build or not.
19:33:13 <Rubidium> s/build/built/
19:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> how about a filter on the purchase list by model name?
19:34:10 <Rubidium> Kogut: sounds okay
19:35:15 <Rubidium> although I wonder whether it would, consistency wise, be better to mimic the station building API
19:35:29 <Kogut> <- reuploaded
19:35:33 <Rubidium> i.e. northern tile and then building X "platforms"
19:36:39 <Kogut> well, AFAIK it is supposed to mimic normal interface
19:37:00 <Rubidium> and "normal" refers to what?
19:37:09 <Kogut> used by humans
19:37:55 <Kogut> Yexo said that it also should include limitations, like width == 1 || height == 1
19:38:16 <Kogut> but I can change it
19:38:34 <Rubidium> well... I'm just wondering
19:39:07 <Rubidium> but the interface used by humans sets a begin point and then allows you to build N tiles perpendicular to the clicked tile
19:39:37 <Rubidium> which would be more like selecting a tile and then saying it's N wide (has N "platforms")
19:41:14 <Kogut> hm, maybe. I will ask Yexo
19:43:51 <Yexo> minicing the station interface sounds like a good idea
19:44:05 <Yexo> with the difference that the direction would be inferrred from the direction of the track
19:44:33 <Kogut> OK
19:45:36 <Kogut> so now we will have static bool BuildRailWaypointTileRectangle(TileIndex tile, int length, StationID waypoint_id);
19:45:50 <Rubidium> s/length/width/
19:47:59 <Kogut> maybe size?
19:49:37 <Yexo> size is too generic, it's really the width here, or num_platforms if you want to be really consistent with stations
19:49:47 <Yexo> but a waypoint doesn't really have "platforms"
19:50:18 <Kogut> num_waypoints?
19:50:48 <Yexo> it are not differnet waypoints
19:50:54 <Yexo> it's one waypoint with multiple ??
19:51:02 <Yexo> what for stations would be platforms
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19:53:23 <Kogut> num_gates (??)
19:53:23 <supermop_> hi
19:53:37 <Kogut> hi
19:53:49 <Yexo> ok for me
19:53:56 <Kogut> @Yexo - num_parts
19:53:57 <Yexo> if(tile<tile2)Swap(tile, tile2); <- missing some spaces
19:54:48 <Yexo> and it's the wrong way around
19:55:00 <Yexo> it's more logical to make sure that tile < tile2, so the check should be the other way around
19:55:12 <Kogut> if (tile < tile2) Swap(tile, tile2);
19:55:14 <Yexo> byte height = -(AIMap::GetTileY(tile2)-AIMap::GetTileY(tile))+1; <- also wrong
19:55:32 <Kogut> is it space friendly?
19:55:35 <Yexo> the maximum difference can't fit in a byte
19:55:58 <Kogut> anyway, now this will be deleted
19:56:00 <Yexo> it should be: int height = AIMap::GetTileY(tile2) - AIMap::GetTileY(tile) + 1;
19:56:25 <Kogut> as num_parts / num_gates is introduced
19:56:30 <Yexo> Kogut: see
19:56:50 <Kogut> and I think that num_parts is better, there are newgrf waypoints without gates
19:57:14 <Yexo> why not make it "width" as rb suggested?
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19:57:19 <Kogut> and anyway - is it doable to make BuildNewgrfWaypoint?
19:57:27 <Yexo> no
19:57:58 <Kogut> there are width and height in CmdBuildRailWaypoint function
19:58:10 <Kogut> and I prefer to avoid confusion
19:58:34 <Yexo> those are internal variables, you can rename those
19:58:41 <Kogut> as width from ai may turn out to be height in CmdBuildRailWaypoint function
19:58:46 <Yexo> the parameter names are more important as they are visible in the documentation
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20:00:47 <Kogut> is it ok to use int? I see uint32 everywhere
20:01:16 <__ln__> how long have you felt you see uint32? do they follow you?
20:01:28 <Yexo> yes, int it ok
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20:05:00 <Kogut> @__In__ It is coming!
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20:07:17 <Bjarni> GhostofKogut: 0x274EB831
20:07:24 <__ln__> Bjarni!
20:07:42 <Bjarni> I see.... the uint32 are really following him :p
20:08:00 <Bjarni> yeah I'm back home again
20:08:37 <Bjarni> and I have a travel story to tell you guys
20:08:47 <Bjarni> involving trains
20:08:53 * __ln__ prepares the popcorn
20:09:08 <Bjarni> I took a train from Hamburg towards Bremen
20:09:17 <Bjarni> during rush hour on a weekday
20:09:19 <Bjarni> it was packed
20:09:26 <Bjarni> and the locomotive broke down
20:09:28 <Bjarni> big time
20:09:45 <Bjarni> and blocked the westbound track between the two cities
20:09:55 <Bjarni> not good, specially not at a time like that
20:10:17 <Bjarni> we waited 10 minutes, then two repairguys showed up
20:10:25 <Bjarni> and fixed the locomotive in 15 minutes
20:10:57 <Bjarni> and the train could continue like nothing happened (just 25 minutes late)
20:11:32 <Bjarni> because of the magic of switching trains I ended up being 15 minutes late at my final destination :)
20:12:35 <Bjarni> I wonder how many places will send repaircrews to broken trains with such a short notice
20:12:40 <Bjarni> err
20:12:44 <Bjarni> *respondtime
20:12:50 <__ln__> you seem to have developed a positive habit to visit germany on a regular basis
20:12:51 <Sacro> Bjarni!
20:13:15 <Bjarni> Sacro!
20:13:22 <Bjarni> that wasn't fun
20:13:25 <Bjarni> Bjarni!
20:13:34 <Bjarni> not that much fun either
20:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: try that scenario again after there was 20cm of new snow that day :p
20:14:28 <Bjarni> <__ln__> you seem to have developed a positive habit to visit germany on a regular basis <--- well... when you have stuff to do, you go where it's has to be done
20:14:41 <GhostofKogut> <- YA version of patch
20:15:00 <Bjarni> I have yet to try a vacation in Germany
20:15:42 <GhostofKogut> after this change code etc is really better
20:15:48 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: it's actually strange. The weather was awesome this time. Sunny and between 20 and 29°C
20:15:54 <Bjarni> no wind
20:15:59 <Bjarni> for two weeks
20:16:04 <Sacro> @seen Bjarni
20:16:04 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 5 seconds ago: <Bjarni> for two weeks
20:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, was obscure weather :p
20:16:10 <Bjarni> and it turned bad and rainy on the day I left
20:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but today the wind started
20:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> typical fall-storms
20:17:38 <Bjarni> btw the locomotive which broke was a BR 146 (I think)
20:18:08 <Bjarni> Metronome... that company is actually interesting
20:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> obviously new engines break down more often than old ones :p
20:18:41 <Bjarni> they drive those big trains between Bremen, Hamburg, Uelzen and so on
20:18:59 <Bjarni> yet I found brand new Desiro DMUs in Metronome livery
20:19:08 <Bjarni> that puzzled me
20:19:26 <__ln__> metronom actually
20:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that might have been the new S-Bahn Bremen
20:19:34 <__ln__>
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20:20:15 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> that might have been the new S-Bahn Bremen <--- and they were parked in Soltau? I don't think so
20:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Metronom also manages some branch lines
20:20:46 <GhostofKogut> @Yexo - is it good moment to create a ticket for this patch?
20:21:01 <Bjarni> Metronom is partly owned by OHE, which is quite active in Soltau
20:21:11 <Bjarni> OHE = Ost Hannover Eisenbahn
20:22:22 <b_jonas> I wonder how complicated it would be to have an UI to allow doing train depot operations (sell whole, sell part, buy wagons, buy engine, refit, leave depot) while the train is not yet in the depot, in which case it will go to depot and then perform those operations;
20:22:41 <b_jonas> plus a way to repeat the same operations on multiple trains.
20:23:01 <Alberth> the UI is the simple part
20:23:12 <Bjarni> you mean kind of like a button on a train stating "goto depot and sell itself"?
20:23:15 <Alberth> the tricky part is the underlying command stuff
20:23:47 <b_jonas> Bjarni: yes, but not just sell but also more complicated commands, like renew to this engine (possibly multiple engines), or remove a passenger car and add a mail car instead.
20:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that is currently implemented is "stop in depot"
20:24:02 <Bjarni> I did something a bit like that for autoreplace
20:24:11 <Yexo> GhostofKogut: you might as wel keep updating your version in the forum
20:24:15 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: 'refit to x' also works
20:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, yes
20:24:24 <Bjarni> some actions are automated once a vehicle enters a depot
20:24:27 <Yexo> instead of posting there you could have created a ticket when you started
20:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: that plays into the idea of shunting, etc.
20:24:37 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: actually "send to servicing" is also implemented I think
20:24:57 <Bjarni> but to link a specific train to custom orders like that.... tricky
20:25:20 <b_jonas> Bjarni: NO NO, I don't want scheduled orders
20:25:32 <b_jonas> only manual commands executed _once_
20:25:32 <Bjarni> I know
20:25:54 <Bjarni> but you give the commands, the game stores them and executes them once they enters a depot
20:26:11 <b_jonas> Bjarni: yes, and also sends train to depot
20:26:17 <Bjarni> and those commands are linked to just one vehicle, not all vehicles of ID x
20:27:04 <Alberth> b_jonas: there have been several discussions, mostly in connection with groups, although you could consider them separate. See for a collection to start
20:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni:
20:27:38 <Alberth> of course, groups make it more complicated
20:27:48 <Bjarni> I have been wondering about the remove mail wagon issue a few times
20:28:02 <Bjarni> there is a reason why I didn't "just write it" ;)
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20:29:32 <b_jonas> I'd mostly such a feature this for renewing and for selling the whole vehicle
20:29:52 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: and as you can see Metronom doesn't send trains to Soltau. It's grayed out on that map, yet they were all parked there
20:30:01 <b_jonas> (obviously this would not be restricted to trains, it would make sense for all type of vehicles)
20:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: the map is from 2007, so maybe something changed
20:30:44 <Bjarni> DB operated the passengers, OHE operated the freight trains
20:31:37 <Bjarni> but I read something about Desiros driving between Soltau and Buchholz from november
20:31:43 <Bjarni> I just thought it should be DB
20:32:06 <Bjarni> but the only text on them was "Niedersachen"
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20:35:30 <Bjarni> <--- just like that one except "ist am Zug" wasn't there
20:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni:
20:35:51 <Bjarni> same yellow paint, the horse and letters were the same
20:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the horse is the sign of Niedersachsen
20:36:41 <Bjarni> I know
20:36:51 <Bjarni> I have seen it plenty of times
20:36:56 <Bjarni> on flags and stuff
20:37:09 <Bjarni> it's on plenty of houses too
20:37:12 <Bjarni> normal houses
20:37:17 <Bjarni> they add horses
20:39:15 <__ln__> i think Eddi's link from last night is relevant here:
20:40:04 <Bjarni> haha
20:40:06 <Bjarni> good one
20:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that's in the capital of mongolia :)
20:42:43 <Bjarni> red and blue
20:42:56 <Bjarni> Japan used to use blue instead of green
20:43:10 <Bjarni> they changed that, though it should still be possible to find blue trafficlights
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20:45:25 * Bjarni just looked at pictures
20:45:50 <Bjarni> the train in question does infact say LNVG
20:45:59 <Bjarni> with small letters
20:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: since Metronom only rented the locomotives, they also carry the LNVG colours
20:46:26 <appe> wordfeud?
20:49:11 <Elukka> "The Applied Levitation SPM Maglev system is inter-operable with steel rail tracks and would permit maglev vehicles and conventional trains to operate at the same time on the same right of way. MAN in Germany also designed a maglev system that worked with conventional rails, but it was never fully developed."
20:49:12 <Elukka> weird
20:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't sound that obscure...
20:51:46 <Bjarni> sounds reasonable to me
20:52:03 <Bjarni> it would even make trackplanning easier
20:52:40 <Bjarni> like in OTTD, a track could be maglev and electrified at the same time
20:52:55 <Bjarni> could solve some issues when moving from one system to another
20:53:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that exists already
20:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "universal railtype" and is available in the fruit storage of your trust
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21:04:18 <frosch123> night
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21:09:22 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause started talking about fruitcake and the channel died :p
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21:17:19 <__ln__> Bjarni: start talking about history
21:21:25 <Bjarni> hehe
21:21:44 <Bjarni> that's actually tricky to honour such a request
21:23:19 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: do you watch the vehiclevars patch building?
21:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that kinda became obsolete
21:23:39 <Ammler> last working version was r22990
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21:24:09 <Ammler> <-- error logs
21:24:38 <Ammler> well, then it might make sense to remove the repo
21:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, can you do that for me?
21:25:14 <Ammler> yep, I will
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21:42:15 <b_jonas> wait, so oil refineries have invisible squares and you need to cover those squares to accept mail?
21:42:19 <b_jonas> funny
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21:43:44 <b_jonas> so there's exactly one square in an oil rig that accepts mail, and exactly one that accepts passengers?
21:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> they're not invisible, just the rig is not fully covering these with graphics
21:45:50 <b_jonas> and apparently oil rigs only have two squares that accept oil
21:48:19 <b_jonas> apparently a power station also only has one square that accepts coal, and a saw mill has two squares accepting wood, but factories and steel mills accept cargo on all squares
21:48:55 <b_jonas> all this for compatibility with ttdpatch
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21:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> what has compatibility with ttdpatch to do with this?
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22:00:27 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: I presume that's why it works this way
22:00:40 <b_jonas> you know, savegame compatibility
22:00:44 <Wolf01> 'night
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22:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a genuine game feature... has nothing to do with compatibility
22:01:03 <Prof_Frink> b_jonas: Not ttdpatch. Not even TTD.
22:01:09 <b_jonas> back when openttd was started, developpers tried to make it very similar to ttd
22:01:21 <Prof_Frink> It's been like that since TT.
22:01:31 <Prof_Frink> Back when openttd was started it *was* ttd.
22:01:47 <b_jonas> it was a clone of ttd, yes
22:03:08 <glx> acceptance is exactly like in TTD
22:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: just because it was never changed, doesn't mean it is "for compatibility"
22:04:51 <Bjarni> I always found this feature quite annoying
22:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: make a GRF that changes it :)
22:05:23 <Bjarni> that would be annoying for me as well :p
22:05:35 <b_jonas> wasn't the fact that power stations accept part of Passenger even declared a bug at some point?
22:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> plenty of people have declared plenty of things
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22:07:06 <supermop_> people have to work at the power plant
22:07:10 <Bjarni> declarations by random people on the forum shouldn't be read as facts
22:07:12 <b_jonas> no wait, that's my mistake
22:07:21 <b_jonas> it was something different that was declared a bug
22:07:22 <b_jonas> sorr
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22:40:53 <Elukka>
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22:41:11 <Elukka> that center buffer looks almost like the classic HO couplers...
22:41:17 <Elukka> at a glance, anyhow
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22:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> not like any i have ever seen
22:45:47 <Elukka> hmm. it's the märklin coupler hooks it makes me think of
22:45:49 <Elukka> remove the two upper prongs
22:47:10 <Elukka> some older and cheaper locomotives came with (still do) with couplers that lack a loop
22:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i once had one of those, that only had a "proper" coupler at the tender
22:52:36 <Elukka> i'm shocked to find the old start set br 89 with coupler hooks actually has NEM sockets
22:56:50 <Bjarni> ahh the wonders of track maintenance
22:57:09 <Bjarni> there is something right outside with an idle diesel engine and it goes bum bum bum
22:57:15 <Bjarni> somewhat annoying
22:57:42 <Bjarni> I opened the window and the guys outside talked with each other and I could make out "it's too short" and stuff like that
22:57:50 <Bjarni> this might be a long night
22:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "Guest to waiter: Hey, my coffee is cold"
22:58:00 <Bjarni> I can skip even trying to sleep in this noise
22:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "waiter: well, if you want something warm, you should order a beer"
22:58:21 <Bjarni> hehe
22:58:47 <Bjarni> ohh... they started using a crane.. something happens
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22:58:49 <Bjarni> good
22:59:04 <Bjarni> the question is... for how long? :/
22:59:54 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> "waiter: well, if you want something warm, you should order a beer" <--- I have relatives who ages ago headed beer on the stove
23:00:09 <Bjarni> but it wasn't beer like the kind you can buy today
23:00:22 <Elukka>
23:00:26 <Bjarni> and it was several decades ago
23:00:27 <Elukka> that locomotive looks like it's giving you the finger
23:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: they have been depicted in asterix?
23:00:53 <Bjarni> lol
23:01:08 <Elukka>
23:01:17 <Elukka> i very much want to know how he painted the tracks... i can't get anything half as neat
23:01:22 <Bjarni> oh good. A petrol powered rotary saw for cutting rails
23:02:18 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: they have been depicted in asterix? <--- no but I think it did take place like in the 1930's
23:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: so someone built a model of a real life train crash? :p
23:02:45 <Elukka> yeah
23:03:01 <Elukka>
23:03:08 <Elukka> that's probably my favorite model railway i've seen
23:03:13 <Elukka> only on the internet sadly
23:03:20 <Bjarni> in Denmark resistance didn't want the Germans to use the Danish trains. At night they sneaked into the roundhouses in Copenhagen and set the engines to drive
23:03:35 <Bjarni> all the turntables ended up like that and all the engines were trapped inside
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23:04:09 <Bjarni> turned out to be efficient
23:04:32 <Elukka> the tracks, ballast and lighting are the greatest mysteries to me, on that site
23:04:57 <Elukka> the lighting looks so much like sunlight, it's probably one of the main factors why it looks so good
23:05:15 <Bjarni> photoshop :p
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23:06:11 <Bjarni> oh a diesel once ended up in a turntable pit in Copenhagen
23:06:21 <Elukka> photoshop won't do it
23:06:41 <Bjarni> somebody forgot to pull the mechanical brake before leaving and as the air went out of the brake system then.... you know :p
23:06:48 <Elukka> you can fix up the white balance, but a photo in bad lighting still doesn't look good no matter how much you photoshop it
23:07:55 <Bjarni> I know
23:07:59 <Bjarni> I was joking
23:08:06 <Bjarni> those photos look good
23:08:07 <Elukka> heh
23:08:13 <Elukka> i've been considering daylight lamps but i dunno how much they'd do
23:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "Freitag, der 7.Oktober 111"
23:12:36 <Bjarni> 111
23:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> y2k bug!!!
23:12:47 <b_jonas> where does it say that?
23:12:49 <Bjarni> damn timemachine fucked up again
23:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> on the page that Elukka posted
23:15:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "three in an office and one works. what is this?"
23:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "three public servants and one ventilator"
23:17:10 <Bjarni> I saw that ferry thing on Norwegian TV. People showed up on the harbours when they knew TV was coming (go figure)
23:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> what ferry thing?
23:17:59 <Bjarni> two girls were holding a big sign saying something like "we can't stay here all day. People would think we were public servants"
23:19:16 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> what ferry thing? <---
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23:19:46 <Bjarni> understanding Norwegian helps a bit :p
23:19:51 <z-MaTRiX> :)
23:19:54 <z-MaTRiX> clear;e=eval\ ;p=printf\ ;x="$e$p\$";u=USER;n=NAME;r=$(stty -g);stty raw -echo;read -sn1 -p \[$($x$u)@$(${x}HOST$n):~\]$\ ;a="The Matrix has you now $(grep $($x$u$n) /etc/passwd |awk -F: '{print $5}')...";while [ "$a" ];do $p\%c "$a";a=${a:1};sleep .$(($RANDOM*20));done;stty "$r";$p\\n
23:20:27 <Bjarni> basically it's a 134 hour video stream of a ferry going from A to B
23:20:48 <Bjarni> From Bergen along the coast almost all the way to Russia
23:22:11 <Bjarni> z-MaTRiX: I don't dare to enter that
23:22:23 <z-MaTRiX> ;>>
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23:22:31 <Bjarni> for some reason it tells me that you could take over my computer
23:22:37 <z-MaTRiX> looks little cryptic
23:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you must use encode() and stuff to make it more cryptic
23:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> waay too much plain text
23:24:30 <glx> especially the a part :)
23:24:39 <glx> it tells too much ;)
23:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "why are the chinese small and yellow?" "if they were big and yellow, they would be mail trucks"
23:25:41 <z-MaTRiX> hah you'r right
23:26:13 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: that one works better in countries with yellow mail trucks.... such as Germany
23:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (that probably only works in countries where the mail is yellow)
23:27:29 <Bjarni> oh dear. The politicians in Denmark are still debating
23:27:36 <Bjarni> they started at 9 or 10
23:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "the soothsayer meeting is cancelled due to unforseen events"
23:28:06 <Bjarni> meaning they have been debating for like 15 hours strait
23:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: are they done forming a govermnent yet?
23:28:29 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: haha... awesome way to lose customers :D
23:28:52 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: are they done forming a govermnent yet? <--- sort of... but it's wicked
23:29:24 <Bjarni> basically parlament has 179 seats, meaning majority is 90+ votes
23:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as it works better than in belgium :p
23:29:44 <Bjarni> the new government is basically just one party with like 15-20 seats
23:30:25 <Bjarni> with support for parties which wants the opposite politics
23:30:41 <Bjarni> meaning 2 or 3 parties goes against their own politics
23:31:22 <Bjarni> and those parties have declared they will not do a single thing of all the stuff they promised during the election campaign
23:32:06 <Elukka> bjarni: i followed the ferry stream
23:32:07 <Bjarni> btw there is something weird about the government thing
23:33:10 <Bjarni> when I was in Germany Bild wrote that the new government had canceled the new boarder control law and that people should no longer show passport to enter Denmark
23:33:14 <Bjarni> two issues:
23:33:26 <Bjarni> 1: the new government wasn't formed at the time
23:33:43 <Bjarni> 2: the law in question didn't force passport control
23:33:55 <Bjarni> oh and btw they haven't actually done anything yet
23:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> a major german politician once said something like "it is unfair to demand politicians after the election stick to what they promised before the election"
23:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Bild is not exactly the bright spot in investigative journalism :p
23:35:29 <Bjarni> but who informed them?
23:35:41 <Bjarni> I don't think they made it up themself
23:37:49 <Bjarni> btw even though that law is in effect right now I haven't actually seen any Danish custom workers or police at the border
23:37:56 <Bjarni> while in Germany...
23:38:13 <Bjarni> police has been present with 2-3 cars every time I arrived
23:38:34 <Bjarni> the police watched me board the ferry when I left the first time
23:38:51 <Bjarni> the 2nd time custom workers were on the train and questioned everybody
23:39:05 <Bjarni> they approached me twice
23:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "i haven't slept in days" - "aren't you really tired then?" - "no, i sleep well in nights"
23:41:18 <Bjarni> basically they were active all the way from Lübeck to Puttgarten. Two men for a single ICE-TD set (4 units)
23:41:39 <Bjarni> that's like 15 minutes for each car
23:41:56 <Bjarni> and the train was less than half full
23:43:51 <Bjarni> great statement from the new government
23:45:25 <Bjarni> "The voters showed they don't want politicians who does as they promise during their campaign. Please stop trying to do so" (said to the last government)
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23:47:33 <Bjarni> so basically she orders another party (political enemy) not to follow their political goals and not to do as they told the voters they wanted to do
23:48:17 <Bjarni> that would be like Gordon Brown telling Cameron that he should stop being honest with the people
23:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause> in berlin the first attempt at forming a government failed, because both parties insisted on doing as they campaigned ;)
23:48:37 <Bjarni> (I don't know if Cameron is honest or not. It was an example)
23:48:48 <Bjarni> and that's the problem
23:49:10 <Bjarni> here one party wants lower taxes, specially for high income people
23:49:27 <Bjarni> the communists totally refuse that
23:49:36 <Bjarni> yet they formed a government together
23:50:02 <Bjarni> the government is two days old now
23:50:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that was fun in the german 2005 elections: one party wanted to raise tax by 2%, the other party wanted to not raise the tax. the result was that they raised the tax by 3%
23:50:29 <Bjarni> they already lost a vote in parliament because disagree internally
23:50:59 <Bjarni> and today one party started talking about pulling their support from the government
23:51:24 <Bjarni> had they actually done that then the government would have been the shortest lived one in Denmark ever
23:51:27 <Bjarni> two days!
23:51:53 <Bjarni> but it will die soon.... most likely
23:52:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there were plenty of short-lived governments in germany from 1919 to 1933
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23:53:16 <Bjarni> one party talked about pulling their support. 3 parties made the agreement to form the government, but two of them has plenty of people who talks like they could pull support from their own party
23:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it was so bad that the president had to use a paragraph for emergency laws to pass legislation, because the parliament was hung
23:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (that was a major part in anti-democratic extremists gaining power)
23:54:47 <Bjarni> the communists and the burning of the Reichstag didn't help either
23:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but by then it was already too late
23:55:32 <Bjarni> in 1920 the Danish king fired the prime minister and forced a new election
23:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i think in the 15 years of the weimar republic, only one government managed to pass through a full 4 year term
23:56:02 <Bjarni> because the government had refused the offer to get Schleswig-Holstein back
23:56:22 <Bjarni> the allies offered it to Denmark because Germany lost and Germany needed a punishment
23:56:31 <Bjarni> the government said no
23:56:55 <Bjarni> the allies made a compromise where the people should vote which country they wanted to be with
23:57:36 <Bjarni> the Danish government went to Schleswig and made a campaign stating they were the government and that Denmark didn't want them. They wouldn't get the right to vote and stuff like that
23:57:47 <Bjarni> they voted to belong to Germany because of that
23:57:59 <Bjarni> and the king was furious because of this incident
23:58:08 <Bjarni> and so was the Danish polulation
23:58:30 <Bjarni> and the government lost big time in the following election
23:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting...
23:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but afaik a small part of schleswig was returned to denmark in that election
23:59:27 <Bjarni> the party which was behind this happens to be the party which gained the real power in the new government
23:59:33 <Bjarni> the current one