IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-09
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00:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> how come there are so many first-post people on the forum today?
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01:45:37 <Monarch1st> i've got a couple questions if there's anyone here...
01:46:59 <Monarch1st> after loading, a red box pops up that says enable multiple newgrf engine sets - how do i do that?
01:48:01 <Monarch1st> and 2 - are there any engine sets, i guess, that extend further back? i'd like to play with engines around the time of the transcontinental railroad
01:48:10 <Monarch1st> (or even further really but this for now)
01:49:29 <Monarch1st> (say 1830 for the first intercity rail line)
02:11:06 <lugo> there's an advanced setting for that
02:11:55 <lugo> NARS2 starts about 1850 or so
02:18:48 <Monarch1st> nars2 - is it in newgrf? i dont remember seeing it
02:20:03 <lugo> yep should be avaulable through online content
02:21:30 <Monarch1st> i dont see a nars2 - is the name expanded in the list perhaps?
02:22:52 <Monarch1st> ah ha - i see a nars1, and a narvw
02:23:41 <Monarch1st> and its probably going to ask to 'enable multiple engine sets'
02:24:01 <lugo> there's an advanced setting for that
02:24:21 <Monarch1st> where is it found?
02:25:08 <lugo> can't remember, there are so many..
02:26:02 <Monarch1st> yeah, i know. hundreds at least
02:32:38 <Monarch1st> ahhh...that might be it
02:33:17 <Monarch1st> nother question if you dont mind - how do you add newgrf files to a savegame?
02:34:39 <Monarch1st> it doesnt look like you can, at least its not obvious in the newgrf settings
02:35:22 <Monarch1st> but i like this map. is there a way to find the seed so i can generate it again?
02:53:21 <Azdin> Anyone running any new servers?
03:02:38 <Monarch1st> i dont think theres anyone else here, at least not that reads it.
03:02:48 <Monarch1st> and i dont know much about new servers
03:02:57 <Monarch1st> do you know some about the newgrf files?
03:04:47 <Monarch1st> let me ask just in case...
03:05:02 <Monarch1st> can do you add newgrf files to a savegame?
03:05:06 <Monarch1st> it doesnt look like you can, at least its not obvious in the newgrf settings
03:05:12 <Monarch1st> but i like this map. is there a way to find the seed so i can generate it again?
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09:37:01 <planetmaker> oh, and hello Terkhen
09:37:30 <planetmaker> bonjour, andythenorth
09:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> soo... how do i do randomness...
09:38:08 <planetmaker> currently with a random_switch(... )
09:39:03 <planetmaker> we're somewhat discussing to replace that by a normal switch with variable 5F instead to keep things more in line
09:45:47 <planetmaker> hm... all those dependencies... conditional whether nml is there or gimp is there... hilarious for opengfx
09:46:08 <planetmaker> I should introduce a configure script possibly
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11:08:22 <Korenn> any devs / contributors around who could help point me in the right direction?
11:08:38 <Korenn> I'm writing a patch that adds some town vars, and now I want it to gracefully load older save games
11:08:51 <Korenn> but I have no clue where in the code that stuff is
11:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> in the saveload/ directory
11:09:23 <Korenn> I've got it saving / loading in the sl_town bit
11:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> first step is to bump SAVEGAME_VERSION
11:09:26 <Korenn> but not reading old stuff
11:09:33 <Korenn> that's already done ;)
11:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> in the sl_town bit you likely have min version and stuff
11:10:18 <frosch123> the SL_COND_xxx macros take a minimum and maximum savegame version which contain the data
11:10:32 <Korenn> frosch123: I have that for the patch setting itself
11:10:43 <Korenn> does that also work for variables in the Town struct?
11:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Korenn: no, that's independent
11:10:56 <frosch123> if you need to initialise or convert stuff from old savegames, add that to AfterLoad()
11:11:01 <Alberth> src/saveload/afterload.cpp, function AfterLoadGame() <-- here you adapt for the new savegame version
11:11:22 <Korenn> but how does it handle loading the old version before?
11:11:23 <frosch123> if you do nothing, everything is zero by default
11:11:39 <Korenn> the old version doesn't match the expected chunk setup
11:11:55 <Alberth> the version is in the file
11:12:12 <Alberth> so it loads the old file with SLD_COND macros that state what's in it
11:12:30 <b_jonas> how do you figure out how much a factory or refinery really produces? their production is so variable and you only get to see one month's production in the window.
11:12:41 <b_jonas> do you just check it out in several months?
11:12:56 <Alberth> Korenn: then it calls AfterLoad() where you can change the data to the new version
11:13:20 <Korenn> right. and since zero is fine for my default, I wouldn't need any actual stuff there
11:13:25 <planetmaker> b_jonas: it really produced that in the last month what it tells you.
11:13:33 <frosch123> b_jonas: build some vehicles, then check the industry directory every few months
11:13:34 <Korenn> I'll go look at the SLD_COND stuff then :)
11:13:38 <frosch123> sort it by "percent transported"
11:13:40 <planetmaker> so no need to figure out anything...
11:14:25 <b_jonas> planetmaker: yep, but as I bring input to it from far, production varies a lot
11:14:27 <planetmaker> but yes, you can look each month
11:14:50 <Alberth> Korenn: it may be useful to look at a changeset where the savegame version got changed as an example
11:15:07 <Korenn> right, I'll go look at the svn logs :)
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11:16:14 <Alberth> Korenn: saveload.cpp has a looooong list of revision numbers :p
11:17:07 <Korenn> hm, the last one is for the rivers, but that only bumps the savegame version without changing any other saveload stuff. that seems wrong :P
11:18:04 <b_jonas> Korenn: perhaps some new river tiles were added
11:18:58 <Alberth> Korenn: settings.ini was changed
11:19:15 <Korenn> and that generates a file
11:19:21 <Korenn> that takes some getting used to :)
11:20:53 <Alberth> you normally modify the .exe directly?
11:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause> why does that take getting used to? i do that all the time :p
11:25:21 <Korenn> generating source files isn't exactly the most common of programming practices. So the .ini is not yet on my radar as 'code' :)
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11:25:38 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2954.54545455
11:26:01 <Korenn> thanks Alberth, Eddi|zuHause!
11:26:09 <frosch123> hmm, in 2954 years we run out of savegame versions :s
11:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i thought there was a limit of 256 in the code?
11:26:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (not sure why that is there)
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11:28:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r23013 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Doc: Add a note about the savegame version used in the 1.1 branch.
11:28:55 <frosch123> though we are behind schedule for 1.1.2 :p
11:29:37 <frosch123> only 3 savegame bumps in 1.2.0 so far, while there should be 22 till branching
11:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd is clearly dying
11:31:00 <Alberth> next branch in 44 months :)
11:31:53 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 58.6666666667
11:31:58 <frosch123> branching was in february :)
11:32:18 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I have that idea about the forums, it seems very quiet there, or is it just me?
11:32:27 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 50.6666666667
11:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> we need a solution for the 99km/h problem
11:33:21 <planetmaker> it's usually around now the most quiet time of the year iirc, Alberth
11:33:30 <planetmaker> semester just starts / started ;-)
11:33:51 <Alberth> oh, everybody is hard at work :)
11:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: there were a bunch of new people in the forum over the past few days
11:34:02 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: Round(speed/5) * 5
11:34:17 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: don't display the speed
11:34:23 <Alberth> it makes no sense anyway
11:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it's still displayed in purchase menu and stuff
11:34:54 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: also Round(power/50) * 50
11:35:10 * Alberth distributes black 'censored' stickers to all
11:35:46 <planetmaker> hm... how nice. A spammer complained in his spam message about not being able to login into the grfspec wiki
11:35:50 <planetmaker> I guess: "good so"
11:36:26 <frosch123> [13:30] <Eddi|zuHause> openttd is clearly dying <- otoh we are following the trend. democracy is also dying
11:36:26 <Alberth> I think he copied some text from another message, eg PaulC
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11:38:00 <planetmaker> openttd dies... too many developers programme (new)grfs ;-)
11:44:38 <Korenn> my patch is almost done, and I'm trying to get it to the right code standard. should be interesting enough to poke some people alive ;)
11:44:57 <Korenn> even if it's only to yell 'god no that's awfully coded'
12:10:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: openttd is clearly dying
12:10:52 <andythenorth> that will always be true, until there's no-one around to say it
12:11:29 <Alberth> someone will be here :)
12:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause> in analogy to the "the world ends" prophecies?
12:11:41 <andythenorth> probably just DorpsGek
12:11:59 <andythenorth> just that the destiny of all things that live is to die
12:12:07 <andythenorth> 'dying from the day they were born' etc
12:12:33 <andythenorth> every commit is one commit closer to the final commit
12:13:00 <planetmaker> and thus world ends. Amen.
12:14:11 <Alberth> what about pre-birth commits?
12:14:41 <andythenorth> so, is ottd suffering the same forums problem as mature newgrfs?
12:14:56 <andythenorth> i.e. it's pretty good, there's no big bugs, and no big new projects to discuss?
12:15:03 <andythenorth> so there's no discussion
12:15:16 <andythenorth> and most of the issues/ideas that come up can be filed under 'same old crap'
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12:17:15 <valhallasw> and probably not really up to date, either
12:18:14 <Alberth> and contains a lot of stuff that is out of scope of the goal, or useless
12:20:22 <andythenorth> are there any goals big at the moment really?
12:20:32 <andythenorth> looks like some quiet work is being done on grf-topia
12:20:40 <andythenorth> YACD looks promising, but is quiet
12:20:55 <planetmaker> and killed cargodist
12:20:57 <andythenorth> there's no other big projects in play
12:21:03 <andythenorth> nml is a big project
12:21:17 <Alberth> grf airports is also quiet
12:21:20 <planetmaker> there's scenario re-write, there's more heightlevels
12:22:01 <Ammler> hehe, maybe you can convince fonso to maintain yacd :-)
12:22:12 <andythenorth> airports is stuck entirely isn't it?
12:22:16 <planetmaker> Alberth: I hoped for your patch with airports ;-)
12:22:20 <andythenorth> airports / newstations
12:22:28 <andythenorth> RoadTypes is not happening
12:22:39 <planetmaker> there are the ideas of roadtypes, bridgeheads, tunnel heads
12:22:52 <andythenorth> it's why I mentioned auto-updater yesterday
12:23:10 <andythenorth> bananas isn't broken enough for anyone to bother fixing it
12:23:13 <Alberth> planetmaker: I had no big plans, mostly just small steps in the right direction
12:23:17 <planetmaker> all-climate. "new maptype"
12:23:40 <Alberth> planetmaker: such as removal of the wait loop
12:24:05 <Ammler> andythenorth: did you really try to work on the current bananas or did tb speak you away from that?
12:24:07 <planetmaker> I see :-) - but what would an airport do w/o holding pattern?
12:24:13 <planetmaker> would planes stop and queue?
12:24:28 <Alberth> planetmaker: it has one, but not in the aitrport state machine
12:24:38 <Ammler> because bananas from scratch seems not happen, but it really needs improvments
12:24:54 <Alberth> so you can have aircrafts holding while you change the airport
12:25:21 <planetmaker> ah. That'd be useful
12:25:56 <planetmaker> yeah... bananas is another site which could need work
12:26:06 <planetmaker> many things to take care of :-)
12:26:22 <Alberth> translations for all newgrfs
12:26:36 <planetmaker> yes, also a nice project
12:26:44 <planetmaker> readme from ingame :-)
12:26:54 <Alberth> we should make #openttd-suggestions :p
12:27:18 <planetmaker> well. But maybe we should make a "wanted features" list
12:27:29 <Alberth> did you try the readme patch? I find the text-layout very bad
12:27:39 <planetmaker> Thus if someone feels like "dunno what I shall do" s/he could dive into it
12:27:40 <Alberth> no idea how to fix it
12:27:43 <peter1138> planetmaker, we used to have one of those
12:27:53 <peter1138> planetmaker, it was called the "roadmap" that people used to randomly update
12:27:56 <planetmaker> peter1138: yes... but seems abandoned. where?
12:29:29 <peter1138> dunno, i was being silly. it being a roadmap with unplanned features on it...
12:30:19 <LordAro> [13:27:29] <@Alberth> did you try the readme patch? I find the text-layout very bad <-- i think its just a case of "you write your readme to support ottd" not the other way round
12:31:30 <Alberth> sure, but how do you make a list of features then?
12:32:21 <planetmaker> it probably shouldn't use a proportional font in that case.
12:32:26 <planetmaker> Which is a big problem :-)
12:34:49 <Alberth> yeah, either a mono-spaced font, or some tabbing-like indenting to text-columns. Neither is exactly simple
12:38:34 <Alberth> the latter would mean you store the starting offset + column-number of each word. At the next line, check whether it starts with spaces, such that its first non-space is also the start of a word at the line above. Then use that starting offset
12:39:29 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes, neither is really simple :-(
12:40:39 * Alberth ponders doing some detection beforehand to simplify it
12:46:42 <b_jonas> or just have the GRF authors link to other files from the Readme, say html files people will view with a browser.
12:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> use SET_X for alignment! :p
12:50:13 <Eddi|zuHause> question: shall i attempt cargo-specific graphics and cargo-specific recolouring now, or shall i attempt slicing long vehicle sprites into shorter sections (to avoid glitches)?
12:50:32 <planetmaker> b_jonas: and you give us the code to reliably call the user's preferred browser on all supported OS?
12:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is we have no cargo specific graphics to play with yet
12:51:12 <planetmaker> the first thing is relatively simple, the 2nd probably more effort
12:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> syntax might be something like: "cargo:(COAL:recolour(bulk,black),SAND|GRAIN:recolour(bulk,yellow))"
12:57:42 <planetmaker> what's the "bulk" in that list?
12:57:46 <planetmaker> it seems not needed
12:57:49 <LordAro> Alberth/planetmaker: i haven't noticed too much of an issue when testing myself
12:59:53 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "bulk" is a graphics file name, like "A_O_5_bulk.png"
13:05:14 <andythenorth> Ammler: I started thinking about bananas, but without a collaborator who is good at web backends...I'd be out of my depth
13:06:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: here's how I made a feature list :D
13:07:06 <andythenorth> I should update that
13:07:09 <andythenorth> some of it is done
13:08:08 <V453000> is there anything special in how is the total train weight counted? When I read what the depot information on wagons/engines says, and count it, it ends up being totally different from the "real" weight when I actually build the train and see the info of the train on total weight
13:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: articulated parts?
13:09:29 <V453000> both unloaded and loaded, the counted values dont match
13:09:31 <planetmaker> callback for different weight with different cargo?
13:09:58 <planetmaker> or different weight when it's Friday 13 and the engine coloured red?
13:10:19 <planetmaker> except when it's a leap year, of course ;-)
13:10:21 <andythenorth> weight multiplier?
13:10:44 <andythenorth> who actually did advanced action 2 tile layouts?
13:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> or when Halloween and Friday, 13th fall on the same day. In April.
13:11:47 <V453000> for example, I have a gondola which says it is empty (22t) and a centerbeam wagon which also says 22t. When I made a train consisting of two BR182s from DB set and added 8 wagons to each, the gondola one has 368t in total, the centerbeam has 346 in total
13:13:18 <peter1138> hmm, don't even have the dbset around any more :(
13:13:39 * peter1138 mumbles about bananas
13:13:47 <V453000> hm, one of them is correct
13:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "Paniertes Schweineschnitzel aus Putenbrust"
13:17:31 <V453000> hm :( the errors happen with various train sets
13:18:07 <planetmaker> purchase list info can differ from bought vehicle
13:18:17 <planetmaker> it's up to the newgrf to do the right thing
13:18:46 <peter1138> don't think dbset does anything like that
13:19:34 <V453000> planetmaker: so basically the depot values do not have to match with running train?
13:19:50 <peter1138> new vehicle values, no
13:20:07 <planetmaker> peter1138: couldn't a train alter it there via cb36 either?
13:20:51 <andythenorth> a suggestion that died: fields around industries
13:21:04 <andythenorth> maybe via new objects, 'planted' by industry
13:21:08 <peter1138> Born_Acorn! newfields!
13:21:56 <Korenn> oooo, storage fields around factories
13:22:21 <andythenorth> smoke for ships is stuck in limbo right now
13:22:34 <andythenorth> it's slightly done, but mostly unusable
13:22:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'd not consider the idea died. But it's an idea come too early
13:23:13 <planetmaker> which form my pov is a difference :-)
13:24:47 <andythenorth> something else: vehicles in vehicles
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13:26:25 <andythenorth> cargo containers
13:26:37 <andythenorth> lots of fun things to do :)
13:27:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> Born_Acorn! newfields! <-- what happenet to him, actually?
13:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause> he never says anything anymore
13:32:15 <andythenorth> planetmaker: FIRS is waiting on a new stable ottd before we can release 0.7.x ?
13:34:40 <planetmaker> doesn't mean we can't do anything...
13:37:32 <Korenn> magical kingdom climate? transport wizards and treasure? ;)
13:39:00 <supermop> i am totally unaware of most new features as i am still playing chills patch pack
13:39:49 <Korenn> supermop: isn't that pretty outdated by now?
13:41:29 <supermop> not unless you draw them yourself
13:41:53 <supermop> and it cannot load a save from nightly, so no real way to get them
13:42:16 <Korenn> ofcourse it can't - no support whatsoever, so that wouldn't make sense :)
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13:43:49 <Elukka> go finish firs, all of it, so i can make that scenario i dream of making with it :p
13:44:12 <andythenorth> my motivation to work on it is currently low
13:44:21 <andythenorth> I'm not demoralised, just not inspired
13:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: now's the right time to work on economies
13:45:00 <andythenorth> because it's now in nml, I'm much less inclined to work on the code
13:45:07 <V453000> hm this is sad :( the vehicle purchase infos tend to be so wrong in so many cases
13:45:09 <andythenorth> I'm kind of limited to drawing these days
13:46:05 <andythenorth> but I don't know nml, and I no longer know the FIRS codebase either
13:46:24 <andythenorth> so I'm trying to work on a massive codebase, that doesn't work like it did for the last 2 years, in a language I don't know
13:46:46 <LordAro> why did you convert it then?
13:47:13 <andythenorth> because grfcodec doesn't support advanced tile layouts
13:47:29 <andythenorth> and to gain maintainability
13:48:02 <andythenorth> it was the correct thing to do, but has the side effect that I no longer develop code for FIRS
13:48:22 <andythenorth> so FIRS development depends on the goodwill of other people
13:48:36 <Korenn> andythenorth: but NML is so much easier than NFO ;)
13:48:54 <andythenorth> it's considerably more complex in my opinion
13:49:23 <andythenorth> it's a more familiar syntax compared to other high level languages, but it's a lot less explicit
13:49:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: your problem is you jump from highly-templated nfo to even more-highly templated NML
13:50:13 <planetmaker> half of firs was and is meta-programmed
13:50:43 <planetmaker> and the complexity of the templates firs uses now is considerably higher than before
13:50:53 <andythenorth> it wasn't in a good state before nml either. It's just that the meta-programming was mostly mine
13:51:03 <supermop> a 'yard' rail type would be neat
13:51:05 <andythenorth> or it was explained to me by those who did it
13:51:35 <andythenorth> but still I find nml magical
13:51:41 <supermop> maybe ill work on that
13:51:59 <andythenorth> too many years of nfo
13:52:01 <planetmaker> "any sufficiently sophisticated technology is not distinguishable from magic" ;-)
13:52:38 <andythenorth> +1 to that as well
13:52:45 <Elukka> firs is the best damn thing to happen to ottd for a good while to me
13:53:30 <planetmaker> programming it can eat loads of time, too ;-)
13:53:40 <planetmaker> I guess I spent a few weeks on the conversion
13:53:51 <planetmaker> and re-templating
13:56:07 <andythenorth> maybe FIRS is just too big
13:56:30 <planetmaker> it's just not a project to be done in a month or a few months
13:56:55 <andythenorth> the amount of work remaining is overwhelming, and I'd like to get some of it gone
13:57:19 <planetmaker> then stop to care about stable openttd
13:57:31 <andythenorth> oh, wrt release you mean?
13:57:35 <andythenorth> I'm not bothered about that
13:57:41 <andythenorth> we don't need to release currently
13:58:01 <planetmaker> it's not about 'need' or 'should'. It's about the psychological impatch. On you ;-)
13:58:01 <andythenorth> we can release 0.8.0 or such to bananas when stable has caught up
13:58:23 <andythenorth> or we can implement what you said in your recent ticket
13:58:47 <V453000> is it compatible with trunk?
13:59:07 <andythenorth> because then stable users won't be able to download FIRS
13:59:09 <planetmaker> V453000: you can download always the nightly
13:59:19 <planetmaker> that's how much was done
13:59:21 <andythenorth> there is a FIRS release, it's just bundle server only
13:59:48 <andythenorth> changing the grfID is usually Just A Bad Idea
13:59:56 <V453000> but we could for example use it on public server without making mess with adding extra newgrfs etc
13:59:59 <planetmaker> V453000: it's a bananas restriction: only one version is active concurrently
14:00:10 <planetmaker> thus if put on bananas stable users have no firs anymore at all
14:00:29 <andythenorth> then we lose FIRS users, or they think it has died
14:00:55 <V453000> or they download newer openttd :P
14:01:04 <andythenorth> so options include: don't worry about it for now; fix bananas; push for new stable ottd release; split versions + offer both on bananas
14:01:08 <V453000> and well ... how soon is a new stable arriving? :)
14:01:39 <planetmaker> after all a pikka-release cycle is not the worst either
14:01:40 <planetmaker> there's no-one who released more frequently new newgrf versions than you, andythenorth
14:02:14 <planetmaker> currently I'm personally fine with "wait for stable ottd"
14:02:27 <planetmaker> I need to gather some new drive to address some firs issues, too ;-)
14:02:39 <andythenorth> or we could do something else entirely for a bit
14:02:51 <andythenorth> I could add new steam trams to HEQS for example
14:02:54 <andythenorth> or start a truck set
14:02:58 <supermop> bush field new airports for supplies?
14:03:09 <andythenorth> truck set has valid side issues for ottd trunk
14:03:11 <frosch123> he, "wait for stable version" of the software is imo one of the reasons ttdp died :p
14:03:24 <andythenorth> 'auto-updater ftw' ©
14:03:34 <andythenorth> stable software is dangerous
14:03:53 <andythenorth> one of my commercial products is stalling because we now have 'stable' user base
14:04:02 <Alberth> stay away from debian?
14:04:13 <andythenorth> we can't easily update + change deployments, so adding new features is getting stuck in molasses
14:04:30 <V453000> andythenorth: just tell me if you had an irresistible urge to draw some trains :P
14:04:39 <andythenorth> if I did, they'd go in HEQS :)
14:04:51 <andythenorth> other things we could do: fix ship smoke (smoke generally)
14:04:58 <andythenorth> then I'll implement that in FISH
14:05:21 <andythenorth> or I could just work on CHIPS, which is fun, I can mostly do on mine own, and has zero blockers :P
14:05:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you increasingly have "issues" like "I'd do, if..."
14:05:47 <andythenorth> I used to just 'do'
14:06:49 <planetmaker> yeah. You explored thoroughly the boundaries of current newgrf capabilities in several areas
14:07:08 <planetmaker> the problem are now: the boundaries don't move that fast anymore as you can explore ;-)
14:07:14 <andythenorth> the truck set bothers me :P
14:07:18 <andythenorth> I want nice trucks
14:07:25 <andythenorth> but the current RV situation is poor
14:07:32 <andythenorth> at least for articulated vehicles
14:07:43 <andythenorth> and I think it's maybe resolvable
14:07:50 <planetmaker> "articulated" is something which could generally be generalized ;-)
14:08:00 <planetmaker> many issues are resolvable...
14:08:06 <andythenorth> possibly it's even fine with just a few small tweaks and some decisions to not care about others
14:08:47 <andythenorth> maybe I should write some spec for a set, with options :)
14:09:05 <planetmaker> meta-programme it like cets
14:09:16 <planetmaker> one can hardly meta-programme more that that ;-)
14:09:40 <planetmaker> input: spreadsheet + a few python scripts. Output: grf
14:10:28 <planetmaker> you configured https
14:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yeah, it's pretty genious, isn't it? :)
14:11:00 <planetmaker> it's great stuff, yes :-)
14:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you find some time, read through the .py files, and tell me how self-documenting it is (or where it needs more comments)
14:17:35 <planetmaker> ok, will do. Remind me again, if I haven't done so within "proper" time
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14:34:17 <Korenn> andythenorth: does FISH have introduction dates set yet?
14:34:47 <Pinkbeast> Last I looked it did, but still often absurd ones.
14:35:09 <andythenorth> Korenn: mostly not
14:35:22 <andythenorth> well more accurately - mostly absurd ones
14:35:50 <Korenn> I'm currently using a somewhat older version, and the fact that most ships are available from 1870 or earlier is a bit of a shame
14:35:58 <Pinkbeast> It struck me when a bunch of diesel ships appeared in 18something and I thought to myself "huh, when was the diesel engine invented?" :-)
14:36:59 <andythenorth> why are there no steam ships? :P
14:37:15 <Pinkbeast> Sailing Ships has one or two in, does it not?
14:37:41 <andythenorth> FISH has one steam ship
14:38:03 <andythenorth> I'm not doing more at the moment because (1) I lost my collaborator (DanMacK) (2) no smoke
14:38:16 <andythenorth> specifically the ideas at the end
14:39:20 <supermop> looks good, still reading it
14:39:50 * V453000 likes No real world models.
14:40:16 <supermop> i like pushing for wagons
14:40:30 <Pinkbeast> I know this is different to eGRVTS but it's still kind of the same.
14:40:54 <Pinkbeast> start rv-wagons - yes please, although I ain't proposing to do the work so what do I get to say?
14:41:09 <Pinkbeast> I cannot remember the last time I placed a drive-into road stop
14:41:28 <supermop> i llike the idea of a couple fake brads
14:41:49 <supermop> two us brands, two EU brands?
14:42:38 <supermop> really big russian trucks based on icbm TELs should be in heqs anyway
14:43:08 <supermop> japanese trucks count as the same as eu for this set?
14:43:44 <andythenorth> japanese trucks made minimal impact in us + eu
14:43:59 <andythenorth> so my knowledge is limited
14:44:08 <supermop> we get a lot of rigid body hino and mitsubishi here
14:45:05 <supermop> id say minimal impact in us trailers but market dominance for rigid trucks in urban and industrial areas
14:45:27 <supermop> maybe that means they dont belong in what sounds like an over the road set
14:47:22 <supermop> ant this in every generation:also wh
14:48:28 <Elukka> andythenorth: i'd have some stat difference between the two brands that isn't negated by playing with breakdowns off
14:49:01 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> I think that is suggested - after all one has maximum speed, power, capacity, running cost, purchase cost to play with.
14:49:54 <andythenorth> supermop: I have one of those - near enough
14:50:22 <supermop> piaggio ape +rv wagons
14:53:00 <andythenorth> supermop: in India you get piaggio and bajaj with fifth-wheel trailers
14:53:46 <supermop> a great case for rv wagons right there
14:54:42 <supermop> also, horse would make more sense if you just multihead a few Clydesdales then put whatever you want behind
14:55:03 <supermop> ctrl click to have the horse walk backwards
14:55:47 <andythenorth> supermop: it makes more sense yes
14:55:55 <andythenorth> but waiting for perfection makes no sense :)
14:56:09 <b_jonas> horse-drawn trains are tricky because you want depot visits that replace the horse without the whole train entering
14:56:13 <andythenorth> I think this is me jumping off and saying "rv-wagons isn't going to happen forseeably"
14:56:20 <andythenorth> so I need to design a set around limitations
14:56:26 <andythenorth> which is a fun thing to do in some ways
14:56:34 <Pinkbeast> Simutrans has horse and cart as separate units, doesn't it?
14:56:48 <supermop> bandit should still be viable without wagons
14:57:14 <b_jonas> what happens if the UFO abducts the horse?
14:58:00 <supermop> rigid truck, trailer truck, and two-trailer truck, all refittable to anything
14:58:32 <andythenorth> and no rigids with pup?
14:58:37 <supermop> 5 trailer road trains might not make sense in tt
14:58:43 <Pinkbeast> Urrr. At least liquid tankers and refrigerated lorries are surely separate things not refittable to each other
14:58:54 <andythenorth> its only a body swap
14:59:05 <supermop> in this case refit reads as swap the trailer
14:59:22 <Pinkbeast> Even for rigid bodies?
14:59:45 <supermop> rigid truck chassis are pretty easy to mount anything to
14:59:52 <Pinkbeast> I guess absent rv-wagons it's best to turn a blind eye to any gripes with that. :-)
15:00:20 <supermop> id second andy's suggestion of free refits of trailers, small token cost to refit a body
15:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> google docs is obviously no perfect piece of software either...
15:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause> as in: i can't access it right now...
15:00:59 <supermop> perfect is the enemy of the good
15:01:16 <andythenorth> if I ditch rigid + trailer, then it's only two 'types'
15:01:30 <andythenorth> as an articulated truck with one trailer could also be a b-train, a triple etc
15:01:43 <andythenorth> would need a better subtypes gui though
15:01:51 <supermop> id keep it simple for now
15:03:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: assume split refit gui comes sooner or later
15:04:38 <supermop> yeah get a simple grf out now as something fun to do
15:05:41 <supermop> nml - good practice?
15:06:04 <supermop> unaware of rv stuff in nfo not implemented in nml
15:06:26 <supermop> as to drive through stops
15:06:48 <supermop> i'd handle it as with egrvts but with a disclaimer
15:07:09 <andythenorth> I could just prevent all bandit vehicles using drive-into stops
15:07:16 <Pinkbeast> Who _does_ use drive-into stops anyway?
15:07:22 <supermop> drive intos are still useful for a station that has 1-3 trucks visiting
15:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: they're better when you do "full load"
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15:07:38 <Pinkbeast> Huh, all the world is not like me, who knew. :-)
15:07:51 <supermop> as then it takes up less room and doesnt block the street
15:08:05 <andythenorth> if I ban drive-into use, then the confusion is reduced
15:08:07 <Pinkbeast> I always do do "full load" for non-pax/mail cargoes except maybe FIRS supplies
15:08:47 <andythenorth> if I upgrade HEQS now to ban drive-into, people will get used to it
15:08:48 <Pinkbeast> I guess it's because I use trams where possible so don't really even consider drive-into designs with other RVs
15:09:03 <andythenorth> could we remove drive-into?
15:09:04 <supermop> i don't know if their are many people unaware/upset that articulated vehicles cant use drive into
15:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: 3-axle coaches now in
15:10:07 <supermop> just have them only accessible to rigid trucks
15:10:11 <Elukka> i just noticed i did a tiny mistake with the sprite, and the 2nd class version's going to be up very soon since i noticed there's no significant difference (besides color, that is)
15:10:18 <andythenorth> supermop: well they are already
15:10:27 <andythenorth> but I could give every rigid truck a trailer
15:10:34 <andythenorth> thereby preventing them using drive-into
15:10:40 <supermop> i would miss that functionality
15:11:00 <Elukka> i swear no matter how many times i look a sprite over after i finish it, some mistake will slip in
15:11:11 <supermop> what would be the case for doing that over using a tractor with two trailers?
15:11:30 <Elukka> the 4th class one i'm gonna do some reworking on
15:11:43 <andythenorth> supermop: not much case
15:11:52 <supermop> i'm not sure it would be worth losing the drive into bays
15:11:59 <andythenorth> it would be more interesting if partial refit was possible
15:12:18 <supermop> as eddi said, assume it will come eventually
15:12:42 <andythenorth> partial refit might not
15:12:55 <andythenorth> but if it does, it doesn't change the newgrf
15:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> split != partial
15:13:53 <andythenorth> partial refit of articulated appears quite blocked
15:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> could introduce some special flag to the articulated callback, like "here be new wagon". then you'd have like a 2-layer articulation, and can handle that second layer like individual wagons in the gui
15:15:03 <supermop> i think you have enough in your spec for a good start
15:15:31 <supermop> its too early to be harping over these specific case hurdles
15:17:15 <Eddi|zuHause> take the Henschel-Wegmann-Zug of CETS, it currently has an articulation like: [Engine, dummy, Mail wagon, dummy, dummy, (Middle wagon, dummy, dummy)x3, End wagon, dummy, dummy]
15:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that causes it to be shown as one big unit in the train gui, instead of the usual individual wagons
15:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if i could layer the articulation, i could do it like: [[Engine, dummy],[Mail wagon, dummy dummy],[Middle wagon, dummy, dummy]x3,[End wagon, dummy, dummy]]
15:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and the gui would know when to start a new line
15:18:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this sounds plausible ish
15:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and the refit gui could allow selecting these individual parts
15:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> we need a new articulation anyway, for IDs > 128
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15:20:08 <andythenorth> this is true also
15:20:12 <andythenorth> where is the roadmap :P
15:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> open question: how to "hide" a sub-chain when refitting to fewer wagons?
15:21:26 <andythenorth> the problem with clever hacks is....
15:22:59 <andythenorth> ....they stack up complexity :)
15:23:07 <Elukka> hm. might be an idea to have both brown and grey roofed variant of the three axle coaches
15:24:15 <Elukka> good god my early attempts are atrocious
15:24:28 <Elukka> at least i've gotten somewhere these past few weeks...
15:25:26 <supermop> heqs trucks were named after mountains?
15:31:27 <supermop> would you rather name the brrands or the models in bandit?
15:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: so, could you post your updates _before_ i hit commit? :)
15:32:02 <Elukka> you should probably just let me fumble for a few minutes when i upload something :P
15:32:25 <supermop> brands could be named after NA or european regions/locations
15:32:34 <supermop> regions are bigger than mountains
15:33:53 <supermop> cahokia would bbe a good us brand name
15:34:45 <andythenorth> watersheds, mountain ranges, indian ranges etc would be good names
15:35:04 <supermop> was a centrally located civilization, that engaged in serious trading with other groups as far away as both costs
15:35:19 <supermop> fits the essence of over road trucking
15:35:45 <supermop> not sure if Cahokia or Cahokian is better
15:36:03 <andythenorth> where was it located?
15:36:12 <andythenorth> it's not the easiest name to read :)
15:36:21 <andythenorth> quite often I name things that are one-step removed
15:36:43 <andythenorth> like hydrofoil, built in a certain city, named after the tributary of the major river
15:36:45 <supermop> american bottom region - confluence of Missouri and Mississippi
15:37:00 <andythenorth> Missouri is not bad for a truck mfr
15:37:02 <andythenorth> nor is Confluence
15:37:09 <andythenorth> maybe Confluence sucks
15:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Confluence = Koblenz
15:37:50 <supermop> it was on the opposite bank from modern st louis - which became an important city for european overland transport in the 19th century
15:38:03 <Eddi|zuHause> (german city, located at the confluence of Mosel and Rhein)
15:38:17 <andythenorth> maybe name all the mfrs after confluence points
15:38:20 <supermop> that is white people traveling the major trails in wagons
15:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so... someone wanted to teach me about recolouring
15:39:02 <supermop> so its a location that has been important for transport for thousands of years
15:39:33 <supermop> and its a native name so its clearly distinguishable from a european brand
15:40:25 <supermop> confluence might sound too much like a boat company
15:41:41 <supermop> I guess you will want vaguely German and vaguely Scandinavian names too
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15:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: applying a recolour mask to a real sprite
15:42:26 <supermop> Valby is a good fake volvo,
15:42:48 <supermop> but the only think in valby is the carlsberg/tuborg brewery
15:43:01 <andythenorth> tuborg was a truck mfr I think
15:43:04 <andythenorth> or maybe it's a beer :P
15:43:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: trust me, you don't want to draw graphics for each bulk cargo individually ;)
15:43:10 <andythenorth> terberg mfrs trucks
15:43:53 <Elukka> hm. so you draw one bulk cargo and you do magic to recolor it to the rest
15:44:01 <supermop> obviously the scania region is taken already
15:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: yep. probably in magic company colour blue or something
15:44:41 <andythenorth> better to dig to another level of abstraction :)
15:45:02 <andythenorth> what's the main town for, e.g. Mercedes truck production?
15:45:17 <andythenorth> in fact, Mercedes is covered already by HEQS: Gmund
15:45:42 <supermop> lots of good names there
15:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: trucks are probably produced at a different place than cars
15:46:27 <supermop> gottenburg is too literal for volvo i think
15:47:16 <andythenorth> supermop: find a suburb of gottenburg
15:47:26 <andythenorth> or a street near volvo HQ
15:47:31 <andythenorth> it's easter eggs :)
15:47:35 <supermop> hmm how about dalarna
15:47:53 <supermop> different province but thats where those red horses come from
15:48:07 * andythenorth experiments with actually playing ottd
15:48:18 <Elukka> it's a pretty good game!
15:48:37 <Elukka> could also big some nearby town for the truck name
15:49:01 <supermop> thats an awesome truck name right there
15:51:18 * andythenorth can't be bothered to type ummlaut :)
15:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> am i stupid? all "examples" of recolour sprites only say how to define one... not where to use it...
15:51:34 <Eddi|zuHause> am i overlooking something trivial?
15:51:36 <supermop> supposedly represents odin's horse
15:52:05 <Elukka> Tuve sounds nice and short to me, kinda like Volvo
15:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a stupid suggestion that i probably shouldn't say before 23:00 :p
15:53:28 <Rubidium> just get the ikea catalogue for scandinavianish names
15:53:35 <andythenorth> trollhattan is nice
15:54:34 <supermop> shit its 80 degrees outside and here i am at my computer
15:54:43 <supermop> im off to be in the sun
15:55:12 <supermop> home you have fun with the trucks!
15:56:00 * andythenorth also toddles off to other things
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16:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so really, who DOES know how recolouring is done?
16:22:39 <Elukka> did the door open sprite for the closed goods car
16:29:16 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: what's the problem? it's just a mapping from {0..255} to {0..255}
16:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'm asking how to apply it
16:29:58 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how do i say "remap this sprite with this map"
16:30:18 <frosch123> there is some stupid callback
16:30:25 <frosch123> with weird return values
16:31:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's what i suspected, but i can't find it
16:31:32 <Elukka> hm, cattle car's another easy sprite
16:31:39 <Elukka> just a modification of the existing one
16:33:38 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: colour_mapping
16:33:46 <planetmaker> and purchase_colour_mapping
16:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the car i noted in the tracking table isn't really for cattle, more for smaller animals like pigs, sheep, geese
16:35:42 <Elukka> hmm yeah that's what i meant
16:35:47 <Elukka> cattle isn't the word i wanted :P
16:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah something like that
16:37:17 <Elukka> hmm wonder what the ends look like
16:37:32 <Elukka> same as the sides i guess
16:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say same as the normal closed wagon
16:39:23 <Elukka> i have a model, not of the same car but the construction of the body is practically identical, and the ends have the openings too
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17:45:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r23014 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt:
17:45:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 3 changes by kazzie
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18:24:35 <planetmaker> thank you Eddi|zuHause, for saying that wrt the 'curious bug'
18:24:50 <planetmaker> I had to restrain myself ;-)
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18:30:37 <Eddi|zuHause> conspiracy theory of the day: "the 'federal trojan' incident caused minister of interior Friedrichs to flee to Kabul"
18:32:35 <Rubidium> looks like the prototypical "I changed the NewGRF(s)" effect, and as such it's not a bug
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19:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i think separate column for recolouring is better
19:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> with similar syntax
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20:06:13 <appe> guys, i have been working with mailroom and printing before, and ill say; the ECS industry printing works does not look like printing works usually do.
20:06:53 <George> appe: Would you draw a better one?
20:08:47 <appe> no, and its not the quality of the structure that's the problem. it just doesnt look like printing works do.
20:09:06 <appe> ill be happy to contribute with a more acurate picture.
20:09:45 <andythenorth> so I'd say George is 100% accurate :)
20:16:20 <George> appe> ill be happy to contribute with a more acurate picture. <- well, in that case a task to draw a better graphics would have low priority in case good photos are provided.
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20:26:02 <appe> George: i guess i can fix that.
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