IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-29
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01:29:14 <Elukka> gonna need more trains; tracks
01:37:35 <Elukka> i wonder why the pathfinder is amazing right up to the point where depots are involved
01:37:46 <Elukka> then it craps out in every possible way
01:41:22 <Elukka> meticulously built network with not a single safe waiting position... autoreplace, and boom. 30 trains stuck
01:41:27 <Elukka> err, not a single unsafe position :D
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04:44:58 <GazTT> I'm new to this and wanted to ask if anyone has noticed that the trains over 450kmsPH go twice as fast as planes rated at 951kms per hour planes
04:48:00 <GazTT> new to chatting that is, not TTD
04:50:42 <Elukka> there's a setting to slow down planes
04:50:47 <Elukka> yours is probably set to 1/2 speed
04:50:53 <Elukka> you can set it to full if you like
04:50:57 <Elukka> advanced settings -> vehicles i believe
04:54:22 <GazTT> Wow, just changed that setting (1/4) and now they go like a bat out of hell, great, Thanks Elukka
04:54:48 <Elukka> i tend to keep it at 1/2 to balance them out a bit
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04:56:41 <GazTT> I've ust played a full 100yr game at the slow setting, probably would have doubled my 15.4 billion dollar game
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07:38:01 <appe> is the standard setting 1/2?
07:49:35 <appe> peter1138: you know what?
07:50:12 <appe> i have been listening to some of your and jean-francois work, and i really like it.
08:05:17 <dihedral> appe, you know what? you aint the only one :-
08:05:42 <peter1138> well, no, they didn't
08:06:03 <peter1138> hopefully Belugas will be back up and operational soon
08:09:45 <dihedral> ... oh my, what have you done to hime?
08:11:59 <appe> peter1138: we talked a bit about cooperating.
08:12:08 <appe> peter1138: he seems like the bees knees
08:15:22 <peter1138> dihedral, nudge nudge wink wink
08:15:43 <dihedral> peter1138, you beast :-P
08:17:12 <appe> peter1138: we wanted some of my audio material, and im thinking about asking him for his :)
08:38:20 <dihedral> that's lovely peter1138 :-D
09:00:06 <peter1138> bah, i need my organ bac
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09:15:33 <appe> i have been collecting electones since the dawn of time
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13:24:01 <Belugas> peter1138, so do I, so do I (getting functionnal)... I'm a bit frustrated. I only play like 1/2-1/2 hour a day, while kid is watching TV
13:24:06 <Belugas> man.. that's not a life!
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13:30:00 <Belugas> <appe> peter1138: he wanted some of my audio material, and im thinking about asking him for his :) <-- no problem :) just ask and i'll provide
13:30:32 <Belugas> if it's Bloody Time Zones, you'll have to have peter1138's agreement as well, but I doubt he'll refuse ;)
13:31:26 <Belugas> for bloody time zones, i have stereo tracks of both instruments separated. If it's my one stuff, i can give you all the tracks on waves used
13:32:28 <Belugas> dihedral, it's not peter1138 who did something to me, it's me who starves peter1138 from jamming, due to my basement reconstruction
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13:40:04 <Belugas> and tomorrow, the basement will get insulating foam injection!
13:40:15 <Belugas> that is a big step toward completion
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14:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i need makefile help
14:27:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i moved the tracking table, but now the makefile fails, and i don't know where to change stuff
14:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i changed scripts/Makefile.in, but i get only errors
14:30:19 <planetmaker> is it all checked-in or you got a patch?
14:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... wait, i think the errors are my fault
14:31:43 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't change two things at once ;)
14:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so... len('ä') is apparently 2
14:42:23 <planetmaker> utf-8 has len(ch): 1 for <128, 2 for < 2048 or so
14:42:45 <planetmaker> ä surely has not ASCII < 128
14:43:04 <__ln__> depending on charset..
14:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> len(u'ä') is 1, so i'm lacking a conversion function somewhere
14:43:24 <__ln__> there was the one where ascii-'{' was 'ä'
14:45:03 <planetmaker> __ln__: with utf-8 it does not depend on "charset"
14:45:15 <planetmaker> it's uniquely defined
14:46:08 <TinoDidriksen> Er, not really...you can get varations with NFD or NFC.
14:46:24 <TinoDidriksen> ä can be either ä or a+¨
14:53:44 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: why do you care about the length of strings in your script?
14:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: to print out an aligned table
15:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> solution: "codecs.open('file','r','utf8')"
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15:07:53 <Elukka> finished up the coal for my coal wagons
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16:52:25 <appe> peter1138, Belugas: neat.
16:52:47 <appe> Elukka: that is FANTASTIC!
16:55:23 <appe> it's been many years since i saw a decent real life hobby railway.
16:56:36 <Elukka> i think it needs terrain before it can be called decent :P
16:57:11 <Elukka> that's the plan but everyone has plans
16:57:12 <appe> my father used to have merklin-trains
16:57:17 <Elukka> question is if i can ever get it done
17:00:03 * TWerkhoven remembers his dad's old setup
17:00:16 <Elukka> i prefer the new stuff, they're much more detailed, run smoother and i'm a sucker for sounds
17:00:41 <TWerkhoven> he uses fishlines and handcrafted levers to remote control the switches
17:01:07 <Elukka> i have an old... maybe 1970's V200 with coaches from around the same time too
17:01:21 <TWerkhoven> dad and uncle had fleischmann though
17:01:22 <V453000> ooh model trains :O quite expensive hobby, isnt it
17:01:39 <Elukka> but then most hobbies are
17:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause> your coal mines don't look like they can make long trains ;)
17:01:57 <Elukka> i remember someone on a model train forum saying that if you think they're expensive, never get into photography
17:02:10 <TWerkhoven> unc had a couble of br01 steamers (no real steam though) but the engine was in the tender so the loc could be quite detailed
17:02:36 <Elukka> märklin still puts the motor in the locomotive these days
17:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i have a BR 41 (Reko) that has the engine in the tender. but it doesn't run very well
17:03:30 <TWerkhoven> depends on the loc with fleischman, dad has a few 6axle tenderlocs with the engine in the cab
17:03:33 <Elukka> eddi, i can't fit anything very long anywhere
17:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called H0, people
17:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> like you speak... Ha Null -> H0
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17:04:46 <Elukka> check out the mouseover text
17:06:17 <Elukka> technically... isn't it Half O
17:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's half of 0 scale!
17:08:12 <Elukka> anyway the way i figured the coal mines is that by shunting it's possible to assemble a train of ~8 short wagons
17:08:17 <Elukka> and there's some extra space too
17:08:56 <Elukka> i need to find a BR50 or some other general purpose steamer
17:09:20 <Belugas> appe, jsut say the name, and i'll deliver it (maybe not today though). of course, same pattern, make sure to include names if ever you release something :)
17:09:24 <Pinkbeast> A Black Five, wait, wrong country
17:10:21 <Pinkbeast> I wouldn't say there were a lot of Black Fives but I think at one point the NYMR preserved railway had three running...
17:12:56 <Elukka> black fives coupled to 7F's look odd in railworks
17:13:20 <Elukka> the black five's proportions look like they should be bigger in relation, but they aren't
17:13:40 <Elukka> the 7F meanwhile has a small locomotive's proportions making the black fives look kinda miniature
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17:17:33 <appe> Belugas: i wont release anything without you people listening to it first.
17:18:58 <Belugas> too bad you can't get your hands on the sources of Seven :S DOn't worry, I'll manage :)
17:22:09 <Elukka> that's not quite prussian!
17:22:15 <Elukka> bright colors are nice
17:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that should be "traffic red"
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17:25:28 <Eddi|zuHause> could use a litle more texture
17:25:55 <Elukka> i removed some i didn't think looked too good
17:26:35 <Elukka> are you thinking more detail or making what's there more pronounced?
17:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not quite sure what i'm thinking, but rather the latter
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17:32:38 <Elukka> it's too bad the roof on the real thing is a perfectly flat grey
17:32:57 * Alberth gives some green paint to Elukka
17:35:43 <Alberth> you want to paint the roof on the real thing with ink?
17:38:54 <Elukka> upper's new, lower old
17:39:06 <Elukka> how's it look? i think i prefer it but oberhümer's probably gonna say it's too textured :P
17:44:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda liked the wider door more
17:45:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22966 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt:
17:45:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 86 changes by kazzie
17:58:07 <Elukka> oh yeah i did inadverently make the door look narrower
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18:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> better, i think. could be a tad brighter maybe
18:08:03 <Elukka> hmm, why aren't we making 32bpp sprites?
18:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> we could, but we'd still have to provide 8bpp ones
18:09:32 <Terkhen> otherwise sprites would appear as black blocks (or whatever you use as placeholder) for the 99% of the people not using 32bpp
18:09:52 <Elukka> doesn't openttd come with 32bpp support by default now?
18:10:02 <Terkhen> yes, but to my knowledge it is disabled by default
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18:10:27 <Pinkbeast> And a single 32bpp sprite in an 8bpp world is going to look _really weird_.
18:11:07 <Elukka> it doesn't have to be any bigger in resolution than 8 bpp sprites, right?
18:11:13 <Elukka> i'd just use it to make subtler color adjustments
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18:11:30 <Pinkbeast> Trust me, it'll look horribly out of place.
18:11:48 <Elukka> i don't think the eye could notice that some wagon is halfway in between two colors on the 8 bpp palette
18:11:52 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd can't use any bigger sprites
18:12:20 <planetmaker> 32bpp is disabled by default on all OS except OSX
18:12:22 <Elukka> was it the extra zoom levels patch that had bigger sprites?
18:12:52 <planetmaker> Elukka: that's where 32bpp starts to fail: people immediately want zoom level
18:13:04 <Elukka> yeah but i'm not looking for that
18:14:42 <Elukka> gonna try a thing real quick
18:15:02 <Terkhen> I also think that it would look out of place... but I don't remember seeing a screenshot with 32bpp vehicles over a 8bpp landscape
18:15:26 <Elukka> i'm just photoshopping one
18:15:37 <Pinkbeast> Terkhen> I'm thinking back to some experiments the Simutrans people did.
18:15:37 <Rubidium> isn't a major issue with 32bpp the lack of palette animation?
18:16:19 <Terkhen> I don't know about those experiments
18:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: there's a 32bpp animated blitter, but i have no clue how that works
18:16:29 <Terkhen> in fact, I have only seen a few screenshots of simutrains, nothing else :P
18:16:40 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: IIRC it just animated the 8bpp palette stuff
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18:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't think we need a lot of palette animation in a trainset
18:17:16 <Pinkbeast> Terkhen> I don't remember the details, but I remember that a single 32bpp vehicle when the landscape is 8bpp (and buildings, other vehicles, etc) looks really weird. Horribly out of place.
18:17:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, just use real animation instead
18:17:30 <Pinkbeast> UKRS2 has those glowing fireboxes and spinning driving wheels, which are quite cute.
18:23:46 <Elukka> yes but a 32bpp sprite doesn't necessarily have to look any different to an 8 bit one, just it can have more colors, no?
18:23:52 <michi_cc> It might make sense to draw additional 32bpp sprites (not extra zoom though) right away were it actually makes a difference.
18:24:23 <michi_cc> For example if some specific livery just can't be mapped to the ottd palette
18:24:31 <Elukka> none of the vehicles here conform to the 8 bit palette, but i don't think they stand out
18:25:08 <michi_cc> We still need the 8bpp sprites first though.
18:25:18 <Pinkbeast> This is a very small screenshot with no other vehicles in, so not an entirely fair test.
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18:25:42 <Pinkbeast> ... and also, would that screenshot look any worse in the 8bpp palette?
18:26:14 <Pinkbeast> (Also, I dunno what it looks like in motion, but the locomotive seems to be hovering slightly)
18:26:32 <Elukka> it's not an actual screenshot i just threw it together in photoshop :D
18:26:56 <Elukka> the freight cars would be darker, the locomotive would be a different shade, the package car would have less detail
18:27:22 <Elukka> i'm not sure why we need 8 bpp sprites if we could make 32bpp in a manner that is style-compatible to the game
18:27:44 <Elukka> is it just that 32bpp is off by default?
18:27:49 <Pinkbeast> First you'd have to get 32bpp turned on by default
18:28:14 <Pinkbeast> And even now, not everyone's on a 32bpp display, especially with efforts to port OTTD to mobile devices
18:28:51 <Rubidium> if you want animation it is
18:29:27 <michi_cc> Yes, exactly that. 8bpp sprites are needed until most players have a hypothetical future OpenTTD version that turns 32bpp on automagically.
18:30:08 <Elukka> that the reason is not that it doesn't work or the game doesn't support it, but because an option is switched off by default
18:30:52 <Alberth> turning it on without a decent set of sprites is not so useful either imho
18:31:12 <Pinkbeast> Not all displays are 32bpp; as Terkhen says it's slower; so with the existing sprite base, where's the benefit in changing the default?
18:31:47 <Rubidium> not to mention it's bigger
18:32:09 <michi_cc> That option is config-file only in all current versions which means too complicated for 99% of all players. Either future versions use 32bpp by default or are extended to somehow detect a needed 32bpp blitter (maybe with action 14).
18:32:13 <Elukka> well, my phone's screen doesn't explode when i introduce 32 bit photos to it
18:32:31 <Terkhen> also, since there is no 32bpp base set, there is little gain in enabling it by default
18:32:53 <Terkhen> to my knowledge, your set would be only the second after eGRVTS with 32bpp support :P
18:33:12 <Elukka> what would be the problem of using it for a grf like CETS, and pointing out "hey you need to turn on 32bpp"?
18:33:22 <Elukka> in fact make the 8 bit sprites text that says TURN ON 32BPP YOU DUMMY:p
18:33:24 <andythenorth> the whole point of it is that it's 8 bit
18:33:40 <Terkhen> as long as it has a 8bpp fallback, none
18:34:02 <Terkhen> personally I wouldn't use the set if it forces me to enable 32bpp; OpenTTD runs slow enough in some games
18:34:41 <Elukka> can openttd's graphics really slow down any modern computer?
18:34:46 * Rubidium just mentions some berry that doesn't like 32bpp either
18:35:05 <Noldo> just get enough stuff on the map
18:35:18 <Pinkbeast> OTTD altogether can be slow on any modern computer; make the graphics slower and the whole thing is slower.
18:35:35 <Pinkbeast> ... and why shouldn't I be able to play on non-modern computers anyway?
18:35:46 <Elukka> surely if your CPU is too slow it doesn't matter if your GPU has to work a bit more?
18:36:10 <Rubidium> Elukka: your GPU doesn't do anything useful for OpenTTD
18:36:29 <Rubidium> *except* palette animation ;)
18:36:55 <Terkhen> you might want to check the ancient "opengl blitter" thread at the development subforum
18:37:09 <Terkhen> IIRC it wasn't faster
18:37:10 <Noldo> I think I have listened to this conversation before
18:37:16 <Elukka> i suppose i'm spoiled by 2D games that run a 3D engine and run a ten thousand sprites with no slowdown...
18:37:52 <Terkhen> Noldo: that happens a lot here, new people finding old discussions :P
18:38:16 <Rubidium> pff... opengl is slower (in the case of OpenTTD) due to the vast amount of sprites that are needed and so you're very often busy updating the sprites of the GPU
18:38:59 <Elukka> well, if it's all CPU that does explain why it's a concern
18:39:02 <Terkhen> IIRC the last time it was someone who was adamant that opengl would be faster, but not willing to write a line of code although he bragged that he could do it
18:39:17 <Noldo> should some ome drop the "uses only one core" bomb on him too
18:39:27 <Elukka> i'm well aware of that
18:39:33 <Elukka> anyway i'm not suggesting some all encompassing change to openttd
18:39:33 <Terkhen> nah, IIRC we already had that one a few days ago :P
18:39:45 <Elukka> i was puzzling why CETS does 8 instead of 32 bits
18:40:08 <Terkhen> Noldo: don't worry, expect a new one in a week or so
18:40:34 <Rubidium> but please... tell me why OpenTTD doesn't use multiple cores? ;)
18:41:09 <Pinkbeast> I remember last time we did this, resolving vehicle movement simultaneously opens a big can of worms, but not an impossible one...
18:41:09 <Terkhen> I need a multiple core related thread to point at for avoiding this topic :P
18:41:55 <Rubidium> like... I've got a lot of apples and it hasn't used any of their cores :(
18:42:07 <Noldo> random system plays a big part in the dificulty doesn't it?
18:42:08 <Elukka> a very functional, very smooth implementation of a GPU ran sprite based game
18:42:34 <Terkhen> Elukka: feel free to write a patch to demonstrate that it is faster, we would welcome it :P
18:42:58 <Elukka> i just wanted to provide an example of how another game does it
18:43:14 * andythenorth has a lot of apples
18:43:14 <Rubidium> Elukka: that doesn't look like it needs more than a few hundred sprites. OpenTTD uses thousands
18:43:33 <andythenorth> apples are for making cider
18:43:40 <andythenorth> or cidre, for the more francophone
18:43:42 <Elukka> 6000 spaceships is a number that's not rare in that game
18:43:52 <Elukka> each one is a sprite and then all of them shoot more sprites at each other
18:44:07 <Rubidium> yeah... they're mostly the same sprite
18:44:11 <planetmaker> Elukka: sprites as in unique graphics
18:44:48 <Rubidium> not to mention that OpenTTD rejects reality and substitutes its own; one where 11 pixels are less than 8 pixels
18:45:00 <andythenorth> does FIRS need a 'cider' cargo?
18:45:06 <andythenorth> I could translate it for the french
18:45:08 <Rubidium> which is very interesting w.r.t. bounding boxes
18:45:12 <Elukka> the sprites folder for this game appears to be 2500 files, though that includes things like menu items
18:45:22 <Pinkbeast> andy> And "drinking supplies", made from sand at a glassworks
18:45:32 <Alberth> andythenorth: you could do a alcohlics economy :)
18:45:40 <Terkhen> andythenorth: how is that different from alcohol? unless ^
18:45:57 * andythenorth doesn't like peanuts
18:45:59 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: what's your take on why CETS is 8 bpp instead of 32?
18:46:00 <andythenorth> pork scratchings
18:46:26 <andythenorth> 32bpp is an abomination
18:47:04 <Elukka> 32bpp just provides a wider variety of colors
18:47:58 <andythenorth> restricted palette = better
18:48:01 <Terkhen> I would like to try a 32bpp base set
18:48:02 <andythenorth> subjective argument
18:48:11 <andythenorth> no definitive win condition :(
18:48:13 <Terkhen> but I have no idea if I would like it or not :P
18:48:33 <Terkhen> 32bpp would be fun, NewGRF authors would be forced to draw everything twice :)
18:49:13 <planetmaker> people like Zephyris draw 32bpp and then convert down
18:49:36 <Terkhen> yes, he would not care
18:49:43 <Terkhen> pixel pushers, on the other hand...
18:50:56 <planetmaker> well, the 32bpp pack as is replaces many of the sprites already
18:51:03 <Elukka> or you just draw 32 bpp versions and leave the 8 bpp ones as blocks
18:51:08 <Elukka> not for a base set, for a grf
18:51:21 <planetmaker> would be ugly in MP
18:51:54 <Elukka> hmm yes i suppose others would have to have 32 bpp on too
18:52:07 <Elukka> does it affect existing 8 bpp sprites negatively (run them slower or something) simply to have 32 bpp on?
18:52:18 <Terkhen> planetmaker: but is it in a single pack that can be installed easily already?
18:53:35 <planetmaker> not quite sure. All it needs it just to put the tar(s) in the data dir and activate 32bpp
18:53:48 <planetmaker> it's more than a year ago, maybe two :-)
18:54:23 <Terkhen> until it is a single tar I'm not bothering with it again, it was confusing enough once :P
19:02:31 <Terkhen> I'm not sure if "pack of different things" is a good direction for development of a set of that size
19:03:00 <planetmaker> there's one nightly build... a bit further donw
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19:37:24 <andythenorth> my OS would trick the inattentive viewer into thinking ottd is MP aware
19:40:05 <andythenorth> multi-threaded / multi-core
19:40:48 <Alberth> but... it is, some things are being done in another thread afaik
19:44:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but it is... e.g. for auto-saves it uses another one
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20:46:50 <andythenorth> it's oh so quiet
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21:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the 32bpp support for nml like?
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21:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: so if you want to do 32bpp sprites, please go ahead, but please do provide an 8bpp conversion of those sprites
21:46:54 <Elukka> i think i'll stay with 8bpp then, because just converting them to the 8 bit palette isn't enough, would have to draw 2 versions
22:05:21 <peter1138> it's enough for compat
22:10:28 <planetmaker> Elukka: actually it'd be nice to have both, 32bpp and 8bpp
22:10:44 <planetmaker> and... maybe ask Zephyris on how he does the conversion with all his stuff
22:10:56 <planetmaker> he might know a trick or method or two ;-)
22:11:30 <Elukka> i think if we're gonna need 8bpp it's best to leave 32 until the thing is in a playable state
22:11:55 <Elukka> what i'd do is get a workable set of vehicles for every era, call that 1.0 and then expand
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22:26:27 <RainbowNines> Bonsoir, and all that.
22:28:01 <RainbowNines> do hope i haven't been winding you boys up with my cavalier amateur questions. how many dave w's does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
22:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> light bulbs are forbidden
22:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> man... no patience the guy...
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23:22:15 <Elukka> paint's a bit singed is all
23:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you get a destroyed vehicle in a depot?
23:28:18 <Elukka> it was somehow in the depot enough to be sold, but out enough to crash
23:28:33 <Elukka> my friend clicked the 'send all trains to servicing button'
23:28:39 <Elukka> turns out this will break the most meticulously crafted network
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