IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-30
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07:48:57 <Terkhen> hello to you too, planetmaker
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10:38:05 <TrueBrain> right; all OpenTTD services should be back to normal; let me know if it is not :)
10:39:14 <erik1984> TrueBrain: I can confirm BaNaNas is working again
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10:40:03 <TrueBrain> thank you, but I have little interest what is working ;) More interested in if things are not ;)
10:40:37 <MNIM> isn't that the same thing?
10:41:01 <TrueBrain> true == false in your world? :)
10:42:47 <MNIM> no, if (working=true) then you know failure==false since working==(-false)
10:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you clearly have never been in a lecture on decidability
10:43:29 <TrueBrain> okay, feel free to name all OpenTTD services and mark them as true
10:43:42 <TrueBrain> I rather assume all are true, and just mark them if they are not
10:43:46 <MNIM> that's another question :P
10:43:52 <TrueBrain> no, that is not a question
10:44:01 <TrueBrain> you say they are the same thing, nto me
10:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> or one where you have 9-state logic
10:46:14 <planetmaker> it's all fuzzy anyway ;-)
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10:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> now DorpsGek is not not working
10:47:29 <MNIM> nah, that's just him being crazy like a proper village nutter
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11:06:05 <erik1984> TrueBrain: Ok I get the hint, I will NOT tell you that the website is up again :P
11:07:15 <TrueBrain> don't push me today ;) I am grumpy because my morning was not spend watching Big Bang Theory
11:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> was a weird episode anyway...
11:12:57 <planetmaker> oh... season 5 is there :-)
11:13:01 * planetmaker goes watching :-P
11:13:09 <planetmaker> still lunch break anyway ;-)
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11:16:10 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... need a better system to represent articulation...
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12:16:37 <TrueBrain> ugh; had to ban an IP from our network because he was running wget over all possible server IDs. Let it be clear that in no way that is acceptable behavoir ...
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12:20:18 <z-MaTRiX> back from nomansland
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12:24:28 <dihedral> hmmm - my wget loop is failing ...
12:24:32 <dihedral> just kidding TrueBrain :-D
12:25:01 <TrueBrain> dihedral: well, someone is saying that right now :)
13:08:57 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD's MySQL is down for a while; there is corruption in an archive table due to the power outage earlier tihis morning, and MySQL refuses to correct the issue
13:16:08 <planetmaker> in what way, Eddi|zuHause?
13:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> either give him access, or explain to him why he shouldn't have it?
13:16:49 <planetmaker> just as (additional) document(ation)
13:17:12 <planetmaker> oh, you mean on google?
13:19:16 <planetmaker> I assume giving him edit rights is ok with you, yes, Eddi|zuHause?
13:32:19 <planetmaker> @topic add -1 Content service currently offline
13:32:19 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.1.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | -1 Content service currently offline (planetmaker)"
13:32:41 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o planetmaker
13:32:49 *** planetmaker changes topic to "1.1.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | Content service currently offline (planetmaker)"
13:33:08 *** planetmaker changes topic to "1.1.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | Content service currently offline"
13:33:40 <z-MaTRiX> does this mean the multiplayer does not work either?
13:33:43 <TrueBrain> anything using MySQL does not reply
13:34:12 <Terkhen> yes, servers seems down too
13:34:12 *** planetmaker changes topic to "1.1.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | Web service partially offline"
13:34:41 <z-MaTRiX> aham so actually everybody is playing on openttd.org
13:35:00 <planetmaker> z-MaTRiX: if you know your server you can connect no problem
13:35:40 <planetmaker> hehe. That's what coop has for the !ip command in IRC :-)
13:35:52 <z-MaTRiX> thats a good feature
13:36:29 <planetmaker> you just need the server name (and port). That's all
13:36:44 <planetmaker> like stable.openttdcoop.org:3979
13:36:48 <TrueBrain> MySQL seriously is by far the worst DB engine; as long as it works, it works. But if anything is outside the parameter of working, it fails HARD
13:36:53 <z-MaTRiX> but if only i can connect to a server thats boring
13:37:23 <planetmaker> z-MaTRiX: you can connect to every server. Your OpenTTD usually remembers the last server you connected to
13:37:38 <z-MaTRiX> but only the last one
13:38:02 <z-MaTRiX> it could have been cached
13:38:44 <planetmaker> well... that's usually pointless
13:38:48 <z-MaTRiX> in a simple textfile for example, 1 server in a line
13:39:00 <planetmaker> that's what is done in the cfg
13:39:56 <z-MaTRiX> so i can add favorite servers by click to it in the list?
13:41:13 <planetmaker> z-MaTRiX: the server list is volatile. So... you'd save a lot of dead servers
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13:52:09 <TrueBrain> okay; it seems I managed to recover the MySQL table
13:52:15 <TrueBrain> so everything should be back up and running
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14:23:16 <TrueBrain> I wonder if anyone here is from TUDelft which wrote a wget batch script to run every day at 0800 CEST ... /me looks suspisios
14:34:38 <dihedral> why on earth mus a client have nagios version2 ... :-(
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14:53:39 <TrueBrain> z-MaTRiX: if you ask, you don't know. It is that easy :)
14:58:16 <z-MaTRiX> though i could help with bash
15:05:11 <TrueBrain> z-MaTRiX: it is not about writing, it is about being written and used, in an abusive way :)
15:05:45 <TrueBrain> mind the "wrote" in my sentence original sentence :) I wasnt asking for help ;)
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18:01:07 <__ln__> anyone from north korea?
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18:06:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22967 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
18:06:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:06:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 56 changes by Parastais
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19:10:40 * andythenorth is a feedback whore
19:10:45 <andythenorth> anyone tried latest HEQS?
19:11:24 * Alberth supresses the urge to check for anyones presence
19:12:01 <Alberth> I haven't played a game in months
19:13:41 <andythenorth> it's worth playing one once a year
19:13:46 <andythenorth> to remind yourself
19:15:11 <Elukka> i was going to try the new HEQS but forgot to download it for my current game
19:15:28 * andythenorth resists urge to troll the "why don't you port to Unreal engine" thread :P
19:15:38 <andythenorth> Elukka: add it to your running game :)
19:15:58 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but... we're going to have one in 6 months; he basically promised that, didn't he?
19:16:17 <Elukka> wait, unreal engine what.
19:16:21 <andythenorth> I thought he promised you'd do it
19:16:44 <andythenorth> does it support locking the camera to a fixed angle and focal length? :P
19:17:04 <planetmaker> nah, OpenTTD as ego-shooter ;-)
19:17:08 <andythenorth> and does it also allow for adjusting perspective to isometric
19:17:11 <Alberth> that sounds like a worthwhile feature to add :)
19:17:20 <Elukka> it very likely can do that too
19:17:29 <andythenorth> in which case, let's port it
19:17:29 <Elukka> i don't see any reason an openttd-like game wouldn't work on unreal, but... why?
19:17:38 <andythenorth> because we've been told to?
19:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> because of graphics card support!
19:18:00 <Rubidium> andythenorth: if you know moving OpenTTD to Unreal's engine takes only 6 months, then you must have intimate knowledge of both OpenTTD and the Unreal engine. As such you are the one that has to do it
19:18:01 <peter1138> unreal engine? what?
19:18:01 <Elukka> to be honest i do suspect it'd render the graphics ten times faster :p
19:18:39 <andythenorth> it was tempting to troll the thread
19:18:50 * andythenorth has good and bad months for trolling / flaming
19:18:57 <planetmaker> it would be worthwhile from the point that then graphics would run on the graphics card. But... it'd not be sprites then ;-)
19:19:00 <Rubidium> I doubt that... OpenTTD doesn't render, so it can't be ten times faster
19:19:01 <Alberth> instead you trolled here :)
19:19:07 <andythenorth> some months I am all like, 'be nice you mean developers'. Other months....
19:19:46 <Elukka> i think unreal could do sprites perfectly well
19:19:57 <Elukka> kinda funny that someone seriously suggested it though
19:20:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been many crazy suggestions over time...
19:20:24 <Alberth> everybody is happy to suggest things they don't have to do
19:20:30 <andythenorth> it's interesting that the world is so full of smart people who miss the point
19:20:44 <Elukka> still it's not a new idea to run a sprite based game on a 3D engine
19:20:47 <andythenorth> if the world's smart people missed the point less, it would be a better world
19:20:49 <Elukka> that's mostly what's done these days i think
19:21:09 <Alberth> andythenorth: but it would be so boring :p
19:21:27 <Elukka> <@Alberth> everybody is happy to suggest things they don't have to do
19:21:32 <Elukka> if they shouldn't why have a suggestion forum?
19:21:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: it's not like there's a shortage of interesting problems to solve
19:22:03 <andythenorth> where all the missing (odd) socks are
19:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the smart/lazy people's default response is rejection because a) they're lazy, and b) the other person could be stupid/active, which means they'd be wasting their time
19:22:23 <planetmaker> it would be interesting to port one of the scale2/scale3 algorithms to OpenTTD
19:22:43 <planetmaker> and thus finally start solving the "everything is so small" complaints
19:22:54 <Elukka> i think a much better answer to suggestions like that is "we don't have the inclination/time to do it or it's not worthwhile"
19:23:03 <Elukka> rather than saying "do it yourself lol" to everything
19:23:03 <andythenorth> planetmaker: they're surprisingly effective
19:23:16 <andythenorth> zeph found one that seemed to be optimised for pixel art iirc
19:23:24 <planetmaker> yes, that's what I mean
19:23:31 <planetmaker> I was not joking :-)
19:23:56 <Alberth> Elukka: that implies we understand the suggestion, which we may not
19:24:13 <andythenorth> supermop_: do you need help sorting your nfo out?
19:24:19 <andythenorth> station nfo is not the easiest imho
19:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: we did have that
19:24:50 <andythenorth> scale 2x looks ok
19:24:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but then someone decided to revamp the blitter
19:25:15 <andythenorth> I am unconvinced by scale 4x
19:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there was a patch implementing several different scaling methods
19:25:20 <Alberth> andythenorth: but we have so many small parts that together form a sprite
19:25:22 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it was not the scale2x thing, just nearest neighbour for some operating system that most of the devs not even use
19:25:34 <supermop_> station support in nml
19:25:39 <supermop_> that would be sweet
19:25:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: there was a better patch than that
19:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that even worked on linux
19:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it might have been in miniin
19:26:04 <andythenorth> what is the status of station support in nml?
19:26:13 <planetmaker> must be many years and versions ago ;-)
19:26:36 <andythenorth> but is it on someone's todo list?
19:26:45 <planetmaker> it's on NML's todo list
19:26:49 <andythenorth> yexo was coding chips to remind himself how they work...
19:27:02 <Rubidium> Elukka: if someone claims that X can be solved in Y months, then I would assume the person to have enough knowledge about the subject to be able to make that estimate. As such that person is on the top of the list of people who can solve the issue
19:27:14 <Rubidium> (and you should use the best person for the job)
19:27:30 <andythenorth> stations in nfo are definitely squirrely
19:27:37 <andythenorth> I barely understand the CHIPS code
19:28:43 <supermop_> i was waiting for it, but eventually figured i had no idea when it would show up, and was tired of making fun, detailed 24hr eyecandy games without my own grf in them
19:29:01 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: can't find any trace of such a feature in MiniIN
19:29:32 <Elukka> he was saying 'i think this is a good idea and the openttd team is good enough to get it done in a reasonable time'
19:29:38 <Elukka> not claiming he can do it in 6 months
19:29:42 <supermop_> was never able to get a coder
19:30:17 <Rubidium> Elukka: he claims it can be done in 6 months: "it wouldn't take but 6 months to really get something out that works"
19:31:20 <Elukka> ...preceded by "The openttd development team is very competant.."
19:31:37 <supermop_> i also want to do a bridge set as proof of concept to ask for more bridge features, so i feel like i need to be proactive
19:34:41 <Elukka> it really seems silly to answer 'do it yourself' in the suggestion forum
19:34:54 <Elukka> if they were inclined to do so they'd be posting in the dev forum
19:35:08 <Elukka> if it's not okay to suggest but not do it then there shouldn't be a suggestion forum
19:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: it's actually the graphics development forum
19:36:07 <Rubidium> Elukka: if you make claims about the "easiness" of something, regardless of where you claim it, you should be able to back up that claim
19:36:11 <Elukka> it's still an attitude that seems to pervade most suggestion threads
19:36:50 <Rubidium> if the question was: "why don't you use one of the X, Y, Z engines?", then the answer would have been completely different
19:37:31 <Rubidium> it's the (it's easy to do) attitude of the maker of the "suggestion" that triggers the "do it yourself" attitude (at least for me)
19:37:40 <Elukka> or you could take it as a compliment... he said it would be doable because the openttd devs are very capable
19:38:25 <Alberth> he has no idea of our capabilities imho, at least /me is completely clueless about 3D engines
19:39:36 <Rubidium> a sniper might be very capable, but I doubt he will win in hand-to-hand combat
19:40:01 <Rubidium> likewise someone working on 2D stuff and algorithms might have no clue about 3D (engines)
19:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> a sniper is useless if he doesn't have a partner who watches his back
19:41:08 <Elukka> then surely a reply saying that would be more constructive :)
19:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it's so easy to sneak up on a sniper from behind
19:42:14 <Rubidium> Elukka: you can deduce that from my statement
19:43:24 <Alberth> Elukka: he obviously did not look for previous discussions, or he would not have posted in this way
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19:45:47 <planetmaker> Elukka: it's certainly right, there are possibly more cozy ways to tell him. But where's the line between ignorance and arrogance?
19:48:45 <Terkhen> where is that thread? I don't see it
20:24:12 * planetmaker is not sharp-eyed ;)
20:25:20 <andythenorth> I didn't ship them yet
20:25:24 <andythenorth> I was holding them back
20:25:33 <andythenorth> gameplay is more interesting when there is 'new'
20:26:04 <andythenorth> wondering if I should ship them soon
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20:29:50 <Rubidium> andythenorth: procrastinator soon? ;)
20:29:53 <Elukka> these seem like they'd double as narrow gauge
20:30:16 <andythenorth> next few weeks / month soon
20:30:23 <andythenorth> Elukka: they're industrial narrow gauge
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21:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> a few things are not quite right yet, it seems
21:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so... wagons i do tomorrow...
21:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> open issues: alignment, capacity, construction period, liveries, loading stages
21:14:07 <Elukka> there might be a goods wagon by tomorrow
21:14:47 <Elukka> how do loading stages fit into a template?
21:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> make a second image
21:17:57 <supermop_> what are you making eddi?
21:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> you haven't seen the slightest glimpse of it yet from that picture :)
21:19:25 <supermop_> I've heard you talking about articulated things, so I am guessing its bendy things on rails
21:20:48 <Elukka> long, rigid carriages :p
21:21:26 <supermop_> Ha, surely you're joking mr. zu hause
21:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever seen me joking?
21:21:53 <supermop_> although i've heard you talking about tile length vehicles as well...
21:22:08 <supermop_> which i whole heartedly support
21:22:28 <Elukka> i think with our scale the longest coaches are going to be just under a tile?
21:22:56 <Elukka> still nearly double the length of usual ones
21:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> 60% longer than normal
21:23:20 <Elukka> shorter coaches are the length of normal ttd long coaches
21:24:07 <planetmaker> Elukka: do you use photoshop or gimp for drawing?
21:24:21 <Elukka> don't think it'd matter much though
21:24:29 <Elukka> long as it has layers...
21:24:30 <planetmaker> it might matter for cargo wagons
21:24:49 <planetmaker> we can use photoshop files directly
21:24:55 <planetmaker> you then don't need to export stuff ;-)
21:25:09 <planetmaker> they just need names without whitespace
21:26:00 <planetmaker> gimp can read it. And the makefile can extract the layers and write the pngs from that
21:26:04 <Elukka> photoshop is dumb and can't do layers in indexed color images so i'm not sure of the utility
21:26:54 <planetmaker> but... if the whole image is indexed the layers surely are, too?
21:27:02 <planetmaker> how would they not?
21:27:31 <Elukka> it forces you to flatten layers when converting to indexed and doesn't let you make any new ones
21:28:24 <planetmaker> but then it doesn't sound useful to use psd directly
21:28:38 <planetmaker> but I thought I mention it :-)
21:29:17 <supermop_> do you guys think I should wait for nml stations before proceeding any further?
21:29:26 <Elukka> photoshop really ought to be able to do it..
21:29:43 <planetmaker> supermop_: it's up to you... whether you want to dive into the nfo there or have some patience
21:30:01 <planetmaker> you surely could start with drawing sprites
21:30:11 <supermop_> all the sprites are done
21:30:15 <planetmaker> or maybe with coding them as NewObjects for a starter or so. Oh...
21:30:21 <supermop_> have been for about a year
21:31:00 <planetmaker> that's tough then :-)
21:31:10 <planetmaker> you could write the NML-part of stations :-P
21:31:22 <supermop_> what does that mean?
21:31:52 <planetmaker> what I meant with "nml part of stations"? Patch NML such that it can write stations
21:32:07 <planetmaker> but it's not the easiest of things, I think
21:32:30 <Eddi|zuHause> someone needs to recode mtss... that is a pain to explain people how to use it...
21:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> no, not mlss, mtss
21:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually tried your grf yet
21:33:48 <supermop_> i am sure that if i could patch nml, I would be able to write better nfo
21:34:38 <supermop_> well i tried to add more stuff and then there were some bugs due to that, and the nfo was tens of thousands of lines long already so i gave up and started over
21:34:55 <supermop_> dont bother with it for the time being
21:44:48 <supermop_> I am actually removing sprites from the project because some of the special tiles did not add much and are just cluttering the menu
21:45:13 <supermop_> also I thing the roundhouse and yards should be a separate grf
21:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> why separate grfs? you can easily make separate categories within the same grf
22:03:48 <supermop_> that stuff might make more sense as new objects
22:04:45 <supermop_> also it is a bit different in function to the core idea of hiding complex depot areas within a fake locomotive shop
22:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you can do newobjects in nml :)
22:06:40 <supermop_> so splitting everything off that does not have to have a train driving through it could make my life a lot easier
22:15:51 <michi_cc> Hmm, CETS grf is already over 22k (pseudo) sprites. Maybe NML has to get smarter in the future so we stay inside the 64k limit :p
22:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that's one of the things i worry about
22:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> we have not yet cut up the >8lu wagons to avoid glitches, and we don't have loading stages, etc. so sprite numbers might still increase significantly
22:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause> how troublesome is raising this 64k limit? :)
22:18:35 <michi_cc> All Action 0 which are conditional on the same params could merge into one for example (well, up to the 64kb per sprite limit of course)
22:19:07 <michi_cc> That would be GRFv2 then (not to be confused with NFOv2).
22:19:17 <michi_cc> I.e. a new container format.
22:19:20 <supermop_> could nml split a grf into modules that are each under the limit?
22:20:02 <michi_cc> Even if it could, that would mean the player has to load each GRF separately.
22:20:44 <Eddi|zuHause> we could manually split the grf into one per company. but we wanted to avoid that
22:22:22 <Eddi|zuHause> or one per epoch
22:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> since we autogenerate 99% of the code, that should be easily done
22:24:59 <michi_cc> I didn't look at all pseudo sprites, but I wouldn't be surprised that due to the autogeneration a lot of the Action 2 stuff is very similar or identical. NML would need to learn to eliminate duplicates then (or maybe get support for GRF procedure calls).
22:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i need to look up on procedure calls anyway
22:28:07 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Commit #3098 please :) The GRF is big enough already
22:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't looked at that yet...
22:29:30 <Eddi|zuHause> makefile business is planetmaker's field
22:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> or you commit it...
22:31:48 <planetmaker> I plan to add it in the upcoming makefile update
22:32:33 <planetmaker> or let's say: I added it already as default to the makefile framework
22:32:57 <planetmaker> But I want to finish the refactoring
22:33:17 <planetmaker> if it's really urgent.. then commit it now
22:48:46 <michi_cc> Hmm, NML creates quite a lot of Act9/ActD (like 15 actions) for each "climates_available: (...) ? ALL_CLIMATES : NO_CLIMATE;" line, I wonder if that couldn't be done smarter.
23:48:45 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, that'd possibly free a few thousand sprites
23:50:41 <michi_cc> It still duplicates identical conditions though
23:53:34 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD seems to ignore any total sprite counts BTW, so it's only Patch and whatever other tools that might break. This means we can ignore the limit in practice I guess, even if performance will suffer the larger it gets.
continue to next day ⏵
