IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-27
00:00:36 <supermop> hmm too hungry to think straight, ill have to try again after dinner
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00:49:57 <supermop> alright
00:50:04 <supermop> that seems to work
00:51:21 <supermop> can I make a grf from several small .nfo files rather than one long one that is tens of thousands of lines long?
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00:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes and no
00:57:21 <Eddi|zuHause> if you forgive the expression
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01:06:01 <supermop> hmm
01:06:12 <supermop> how do you mean?
01:11:52 <supermop> do i simply type a long list of nfo files into grfcodec?
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01:39:07 <supermop> is there a grfcodec readme somewhere?
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03:48:19 <supermop> how do i make grfcodec use nforenum?
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05:52:52 <Terkhen> good morning
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07:20:02 <dihedral> morning
07:21:48 <llugo> buon giorno
07:26:09 <appe> morning
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08:52:56 <llugo> from the wiki: The transportation of passengers between towns is necessary for the growth of a town in all climates.
08:53:35 <llugo> a city also grows when only transporting pax within the city, doesnt it?
08:54:52 <V453000> why dont you try in game :)
08:55:16 <V453000> but the answer is: as long as you have 5 serviced stations in town center (grey area), the town will grow well
08:55:25 <llugo> V453000: i'm at work
08:55:29 <V453000> :D
08:55:39 <V453000> then why do you study openttd when you are at work
08:55:46 <Markk> I do that as well.
08:55:46 <Markk> :/
08:55:50 <norbert79> Same here
08:55:55 <Markk> I occasionally play at work too.
08:56:01 <V453000> :D
08:56:09 <V453000> you have damn lucky jobs
08:56:12 <norbert79> I don't, but I don't feel like a robot focusing on work only
08:56:21 <norbert79> that's why I am here too
08:56:22 <llugo> V453000: wasn't 5 just the maximum of stations to have influence, i mean 2 or 3 stations within a town doesn't let it grow?
08:56:32 <V453000> it does
08:56:39 <V453000> but slowly :)
08:57:12 <V453000> just build a few bus stations in city center and it does wonders
08:58:08 <V453000> if you seek some further information on how to actually make a city network, you might want to skim through this
09:05:07 <llugo> *shudder* :P
09:09:41 <norbert79> Making cities larger must be also something in control. At some points some cities/towns are not to be spread too much, and sometimes it's for the best leaving them grow fast
09:09:52 <norbert79> depends on your goals
09:11:13 <appe> i usually box them in with rails
09:12:17 <appe> for some reason, they wont build past railways with 1 square distance signals
09:13:08 <Markk>
09:13:09 <Markk> oh
09:13:13 <Markk> I learned something new.
09:13:14 <Markk> :D
09:13:23 <Markk> V453000: Thanks alot for th elink!
09:13:23 <norbert79> appe: - I think I have already showed this one, but basically this layout was the only possibility allowing more trains coming to this town, because of the growth some areas grew too large leaving less space for more stations left.
09:13:26 <Markk> the link*
09:13:27 <Markk> :D
09:13:55 <norbert79> Markk: This doesn't make too much sense really...
09:14:04 <norbert79> Markk: Why not using full load?
09:14:43 <V453000> it does make a lot of sense :)
09:15:12 <norbert79> V453000: Sure, but takes tons of more clicking, than saying going to point A, full load, then go to E, then B full load, then E again...
09:15:18 <V453000> not really
09:15:29 <V453000> you can use a huge group of trains servicing many stations
09:15:36 <V453000> amount of clicking is about the same in the end
09:16:03 <norbert79> V453000: Yet still the commands are being going through, still, trains would go to A, B,C,D, and not random, right?
09:16:16 <norbert79> A-E, B-E, C-E...
09:16:20 <V453000> no, not random :) but there are ways how to do it
09:16:25 <appe> norbert79: that looks fantastic
09:16:33 <norbert79> appe: Thank you
09:16:40 <appe> norbert79: though, what use are the small stations?
09:16:48 <appe> the one square ones
09:16:51 <norbert79> passenger trains
09:16:53 <V453000> if you do this then trains choose any station and try to load there
09:16:56 <norbert79> wait
09:16:57 <V453000> could be enhanced in many ways
09:17:40 <norbert79> appe: The layout of the station has some eyecandy too. What is important is the first 6 lanes are for passengers, the 2 for cargo only
09:17:54 <appe> oh, ok
09:18:04 <appe> how does the small stations work with passenger trains?
09:18:23 <norbert79> check 2nd checkpoint, see the 3 lanes there?
09:18:33 <norbert79> Left is for exit only, 2 on the right for entry
09:18:37 <V453000> but if you need some even longer orders, make this for example :P
09:18:50 <norbert79> so basically: entry, buffer zone of 2+1, and the station itself
09:19:02 <norbert79> and a whole spereate track for cargo trains
09:19:03 <V453000> actually we once had even 255 order train group for passenger city network :)
09:19:28 <appe> neat
09:19:36 <appe> i wish my systems could work like that
09:19:44 <norbert79> V453000: Random primary? How is that to be selected?
09:19:46 <V453000> what stops them? :)
09:19:48 <appe> i have yet to discover pbs and more advanced route systems
09:19:50 <norbert79> appe: Took me some while.
09:20:02 <norbert79> appe: Also analyzed real networks too
09:20:13 <V453000> norbert79: the primary you select, it is for one primary station, but you just copy the orders an ajust one
09:20:51 <appe> norbert79: i love the enthusiasm.
09:20:52 <norbert79> V453000: I still have some issues understanding how the logic works with advanced routing-tables...
09:21:16 <norbert79> V453000: I even have an issue commanding one train which travels from A to B for accepting only 25% of the max cargo
09:21:27 <norbert79> V453000: It just ignores it and picks up whatever is there
09:21:31 <norbert79> and goes off
09:21:37 <appe> since i started using ECS industries, i have made lots of progress in the 'as much trains on as few rails as possible' area, though signals keep getting on my nerves
09:21:43 <V453000> it is possible to tell a train "load 25%" ?
09:21:49 <appe> so far, circle networks is the only thing i (can) use.
09:22:03 <norbert79> V453000: That should be the point with advanced routing, right? You can select cargo %
09:22:08 <V453000> not at all
09:22:13 <V453000> why would you do that
09:22:16 <V453000> you want trains full
09:22:24 <MNIM> no, you don't
09:22:26 <appe> that depends
09:22:32 <norbert79> V453000: Simply: not always, especially at start where I lack of money but want to keep high interest rates
09:22:42 <MNIM> you have four pickup stations on one route which you want to service all equally
09:22:54 <appe> let's say you have two neaby cities with 100 people waiting on each platform. with a 200 passenger train, loading 50% per station would be neat.
09:22:55 <MNIM> that's where you want to specify %s
09:23:03 <appe> and you would stabilize the growth of each city?
09:23:04 <appe> i guess..
09:23:05 <norbert79> appe: Here is a link to Hungarian rail-networks and drawings, if interested.
09:23:15 <appe> ah, thanks
09:23:16 <appe> ill have a look
09:23:23 <MNIM> otherwise you will service one too much and the other too little
09:23:31 <V453000> no I dont because if I have 4 stations I want to service all equally then it means that I expect that all 4 stations have the same amount of cargo inflow which means I threw my brain away
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09:24:10 <norbert79> appe: Some words are in Hungarian, and you might have some issues translating, but in general it gives you an idea :)
09:24:55 <norbert79> V453000: Interest rates need time, and just bloating a station with a train with 14 wagons, and attacking a coal mine with it where outpout is only 32 tons makes the whole a mess
09:25:15 <norbert79> V453000: yet if I have the money, I will buy all 14, but don't want to wait for all them getting full
09:25:19 <V453000> making trains with 14 wagons is questionable on its own
09:25:24 <norbert79> V453000: and manual control isn't reliable
09:25:30 <norbert79> V453000: Why?
09:26:03 <V453000> because you would need all curves to be long at least 8 tiles to prevent trains from slowing down, trains wait at primaries for ages, all constructions become gigantic in compare with shorter trains
09:26:18 <norbert79> V453000: I don't mind the need of slowing down
09:26:32 <V453000> really?
09:26:44 <norbert79> V453000: small trains do not make too much sense, long curves aren't realistic, or possible because of local needs
09:26:45 <norbert79> yes
09:27:10 <V453000> Why dont they make sense?
09:27:25 <V453000> building _anything_ is easier with them
09:27:27 <norbert79> because it's a waste of money then
09:27:36 <V453000> since when is openttd about money
09:27:36 <norbert79> Then I would simply use trucks
09:27:47 <norbert79> Are you serious with this question? :)
09:27:48 <V453000> after 1hour of play I have so much money that I cant even spen it
09:27:55 <V453000> is it about money then?
09:28:11 <norbert79> V453000: Doesn't seem you play often online, or challenge yourself on harder maps...
09:28:26 <V453000> I dont play singleplayer ever :)
09:28:38 <norbert79> V453000: Then your approach suprises me a lot...
09:28:49 <norbert79> but everyone's it's own
09:29:01 <V453000> well, tell me, what do you achieve by gaining -some- amount of money
09:29:19 <V453000> in compare with what do you achieve by developing your style of how you play an making it better an better
09:29:28 <V453000> I care about the lattter
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09:29:55 <norbert79> And I don't care at all, since if I create a nice nertwork, achivements are coming on their own...
09:29:56 <V453000> and trust me that in the end I make more money than you ever imagine
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09:30:30 <norbert79> So you are mainly for fasme and achivements... Being number 1... Being number 1 doesn't make automacially you the best network-creator
09:31:16 <norbert79> My goal is the network
09:31:23 <V453000> uhm
09:31:30 <norbert79> in equilibirum with the needs of all towns
09:31:31 <V453000> how could your goal be the network when you care about the money
09:31:46 <norbert79> Are you serious with these questions?
09:31:49 <MNIM> Hmmmh. this makes me wonder
09:31:50 <norbert79> Jesus
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09:32:06 <V453000> yes I am
09:32:16 <norbert79> V453000: - Go and figure
09:32:32 <V453000> because when I try to build something extremely complicated which demands hours to build and years to develop, I usually dont think about how much will it cost
09:32:33 <norbert79> I still have the feeling you are explcitily trying not to understand
09:32:49 <MNIM> when you've disabled towns building roads and you build 'em yourself, do you pay a lot for the maintenance of those town roads?
09:32:53 <V453000> yes I saw that, why
09:33:22 <V453000> MNIM: likely so
09:33:23 <norbert79> MNIM: Unfortunetally no, but I would be happy having that included in the game... Sorta Simcity method
09:33:30 <peter1138> there's no maintenance costs
09:33:33 <V453000> oh :)
09:33:50 <norbert79> MNIM: Same goes for every track/line/airport/etc
09:34:00 <norbert79> MNIM: I would be happy having the need of thinking about that
09:34:04 <MNIM> oh.
09:34:30 <MNIM> well, the main reason I ask is because Ive been avoiding building company roads for towns as much as possible because of that
09:34:47 <norbert79> MNIM: I prefer that method, so I can also control the growth a bit too
09:34:54 <MNIM> exactly, me too
09:35:14 <V453000> it is never a good idea to let the towns control it themselves :)
09:35:17 <norbert79> - Example of my controlled growth
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09:35:31 <norbert79> V453000: I again disagree. Since at the start you are depending on them
09:35:40 <norbert79> V453000: and if they say no-no to a station, you are hung
09:35:48 <V453000> what?
09:35:49 <norbert79> V453000: So the only option is to allow it grow
09:36:00 <V453000> well of course, allow, but not let it build roads
09:36:07 <MNIM> anyway, I would applaud having to pay maintenance costs for roads, rails and other infra, it'd be nice to have town take over those costs as soon as it's within the city
09:36:15 <MNIM> at least the roads
09:36:18 <norbert79> MNIM: Aye, I agree too
09:36:48 <norbert79> MNIM: and to make it even more evil: each town/city would have it's own maintanence tax.. :))
09:36:53 <V453000> so you would have 10 000 per year less .. what a disaster when you make 10M on trains?
09:37:04 <norbert79> MNIM: so smaller towns would ask for less money for maintenence, since being even happy having the roads
09:37:19 <MNIM> well, Im not thinking about tens of thousands
09:37:34 <V453000> the point still stands
09:37:50 <norbert79> V453000: Well, the more tracks/lines the more maintenence, so it won't be just 10.000... Trust me on the larger scale that would matter a lot
09:38:04 <MNIM> but yeah, by the 1960-s (starting in 1900) I have about 10-20m pure profit, which I instantly spend on funding cities and industries
09:38:04 <norbert79> V453000: If you ever have played Simcity, you would know :)
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09:38:19 <MNIM> I know I have
09:38:24 <MNIM> and still do sometimes :P
09:38:35 <norbert79> MNIM: Was sent for V453000 :)
09:38:41 <norbert79> MNIM: I know, that you have played it
09:38:51 <norbert79> MNIM: Otherwise you would never mention the possibility
09:39:14 <V453000> no I havent played sim city and I dont think it is anyhow similar to the possibilities that openttd offers
09:39:24 <norbert79> V453000: Think again... :)
09:39:27 <norbert79> V453000: Try it...
09:39:41 <norbert79> V453000: Doesn't hurt... You could even start with Simcity 2000
09:39:48 <norbert79> V453000: That would be a start
09:40:18 <V453000> no I dont care about some stupid sim city ... I am just thinking how exactly do maintenance costs influence your network. The only point I see is that it would make you need more trains on a track, which might get interesting
09:40:21 <appe> guys, how do i use the ECS industry grf's + the standard at the same time?
09:40:41 <MNIM> sim city does not have individual vehicle management, true, but infra management is a monster to reckon with in SC
09:40:51 <norbert79> V453000: hehhe, calling Simcity a stupid game doesn't make you look wiser. :) Sure, it influences a LOT
09:40:54 <MNIM> in fact, it's the biggest challenge of the whole game.
09:40:54 <appe> sim city is a worthless game.
09:41:03 <norbert79> Guys, seriuosly?
09:41:14 <norbert79> Come on.,. Guess you always just got bankrupt
09:41:17 <V453000> who cares about sim city, we are talking about openttd
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09:41:23 <norbert79> otherwise you would never say something like that
09:41:24 <appe> word.
09:41:24 <appe> :D
09:42:10 <norbert79> MNIM and myself do speak about Simcity..
09:42:30 <norbert79> and it indeed has ideas which would have it's right place in OpenTTD too
09:42:58 <norbert79> like you have maintenance costs for trains, why not for lines/tracks too? :)
09:44:13 <appe> that's true.
09:44:16 <peter1138> i think someone did a patch for it
09:44:27 <peter1138> many moons ago
09:44:31 <norbert79> peter1138: Why did it never got into core?
09:44:32 <appe> that would encourage perfecting rails
09:44:52 <norbert79> appe: Aye
09:44:52 <appe> though, i guess it should be abled as an option, if added to core
09:45:00 <norbert79> appe: Sure
09:45:11 <appe> id like that
09:45:15 <appe> id really like that
09:45:15 <TinoDidriksen> You get such a huge profit anyway. A lot of extra costs need to be added before it would make a noticable dent...
09:45:18 <norbert79> appe: But having that turned on would be the real fun :)
09:45:31 <norbert79> TinoDidriksen: Depends on the advanced settings...
09:45:50 <norbert79> TinoDidriksen: The game can be already set to a difficulty, where you cannot just get that ammount of money quick
09:46:11 <norbert79> TinoDidriksen: One more factor would just extend the challenge
09:46:14 <appe> TinoDidriksen: true. though, let's say you are playing a big map. we "newbies" tend to just leave unused railway empty. if a cost would be implied, the scale would (or could) significly hurt.
09:46:36 <norbert79> appe: Especially when those lanes are to be hard acessed
09:46:44 <norbert79> appe: Like in the middle of nowhere
09:46:57 <norbert79> appe: where there are no cities/towns nearby
09:47:00 <appe> yeah
09:47:07 <appe> make patch
09:47:09 <appe> naow
09:47:16 <appe> and gib me al yo moni
09:47:17 <norbert79> lol, wish I could :)
09:47:33 <norbert79> but I guess this would take much longer, than for anyone else :)
09:47:56 <norbert79> I couldn't even start a GRF well... got stuck at the first building... Lost interest, because of other priorities
09:48:17 <peter1138> of course you could
09:48:36 <appe> what id like would be an advanced setting to rail costs
09:48:46 <appe> "none, normal, realistic"
09:48:51 <peter1138> road costs
09:48:54 <appe> sure
09:48:55 <peter1138> canal costs
09:49:02 <peter1138> flightpath costs ;)
09:49:02 <V453000> I think japanese train set increases rail upkeep costs
09:49:05 <appe> sign costs
09:49:06 <appe> :D
09:49:13 <norbert79> costs=maintenance costs
09:49:23 <norbert79> Since you already pay it once when building it
09:49:23 <appe> for instance
09:49:26 <appe> a meter would be nice
09:49:37 <peter1138> V453000, what rail upkeep costs?
09:49:42 <appe> "you have x kilometers of railway = gazillions of dollars in cost"
09:49:55 <norbert79> and if the specific object is far from any industrial or town area, the cost would be higher. that could be achived by zones
09:50:18 <appe> speaking of zones
09:50:18 <norbert79> Like with the station allownce areas
09:50:39 <appe> i talked to this friend the other day. he works with intel, building schematics for cpus
09:50:52 <norbert79> oh, I see where this is going appe :)
09:51:06 <norbert79> network layouts, I guess
09:51:20 <appe> i couldnt go into details (since i dont know much about neither cpus nor openttd), but in discussion he told me that zones would actually be the best - and only - decent alternative to a multicore ttd.
09:51:35 <V453000> <norbert79> costs=maintenance costs <- absolutely not, when you pay a one-time-fee then you do not have to care about it at all. If you pay it periodically, you have to care if that line actually brings profit in total
09:51:41 <appe> the bigger map, the more zones
09:51:55 <appe> V453000: correct.
09:51:59 <appe> V453000: that also sounds more fun.
09:51:59 <norbert79> V453000: Ehm, what? Dude, train-tracks needed to be maintained
09:52:21 <peter1138> you're confusing "should" with "is"
09:53:17 <norbert79> V453000: You have some very interesting views on how logistics work... It's not just like laying down a track, and that's it...
09:53:33 <norbert79> V453000: Following your logic we could eliminate maintenance for trains too
09:53:36 <appe> what if costs only applied to rails that are driven on?
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09:53:52 <appe> that is, one time costs for every time a rail passes by.
09:53:57 <norbert79> appe: everything has to be maintanend
09:54:10 <norbert79> appe: Tracks, railways, tunnels, everything
09:54:17 <appe> sure
09:54:23 <appe> small, but in total big costs.
09:54:25 <appe> i like the idea
09:54:43 <V453000> as I said, making maintenance costs is a good thing whereas making tracks more expensive is stupid
09:54:47 <V453000> or cant you read norbert79 ?
09:54:48 <norbert79> appe: And if a certain time-age is being hit, and no maintenance is being done, the track would just disappear...
09:55:07 <appe> norbert79: :<
09:55:19 <norbert79> V453000: NuTracks method is kinda cool imo...
09:55:30 <appe> i guess thats good. that last part is a setting id un-tick, though..
09:55:34 <norbert79> V453000: I mean differntiating different tracks
09:55:44 <V453000> that is something different though
09:55:49 <norbert79> V453000: same goes for the trakcs/roads, etc
09:56:17 <norbert79> V453000: Sure, but the poin t is what I am trying to make, that every type of track would have it'"s own maintenance costs, but that's depending how far those are from towns/cities
09:56:29 <norbert79> V453000: you can quickly repair a track within a town
09:56:33 <V453000> depending on how far from cities? why?
09:56:45 <norbert79> but do the same with a track in the middle of nowhere
09:56:54 <V453000> ok, realism
09:56:59 <V453000> retarded
09:56:59 <norbert79> yeah, just a bit
09:57:23 <norbert79> pity you say so, especially in this language
09:57:54 <norbert79> I wish you would have played Simcity...
09:58:16 <V453000> well when you suggest solutions which have nothing related to gameplay and just adjust to be more "realistic", I have nothing to say than it is plain stupid
09:58:24 <norbert79> and I so miss this feature from OpenTTD, especially from a game, where logistic is all about
09:58:26 <V453000> yes, go play sim city, it is probably more realistic than openttd
09:58:58 <norbert79> V453000: I doubt that your aggressive attitude would fit here, and it seems you are likely the one just rejecting an idea, and offending chatters here. I think you have some issues.
09:59:13 <norbert79> V453000: I suggest you should back off.
09:59:42 <V453000> I am just saying that your idea lacks gameplay impact and does not make sense in that way
09:59:58 <V453000> why would you ever care how far your rails are from town
10:00:01 <norbert79> V453000: No, you are just panically rejecting it even before even thinking it through...
10:00:11 <V453000> okay..
10:00:13 <V453000> so tell me
10:00:19 <V453000> what effects does it have
10:00:26 <V453000> I build rails close to cities as possible, very interesting
10:00:30 <V453000> something else?
10:00:53 <norbert79> No, not anymore, have spent enough time. No point talking this idea with you further... What I can't understand is, why you feel offended and behave such bad against anyone?
10:01:10 <norbert79> I really would suggest for you calming down
10:01:26 <V453000> I am only asking you for reasons why do you suggest such nonsense :)
10:01:30 <V453000> nothing else
10:01:38 <V453000> which you obviously lack
10:01:49 <V453000> "it is realistic" is not a reason
10:01:50 <norbert79> Sorry dude, not talking to you any further, you blew this one already
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10:03:04 <V453000> well, shove it then :)
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11:40:16 <michi_cc> norbert79: Please test and tune/verify the new values in table/pricebase.h and table/railtypes.h.
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11:42:14 <norbert79> michi_cc: Not possible at this moment, can't compile nor test... What's this all about btw?
11:42:43 <norbert79> Lot of code, trying to understand :)
11:42:47 <michi_cc> maintenance for tracks/roads/canals etc
11:43:01 <norbert79> michi_cc: Oh, well done!
11:43:09 <norbert79> Sounds interesting...
11:43:45 <norbert79> Is it based on a regular cost, or something more detailed?
11:44:19 <michi_cc> If you do test, remember to turn it on in the advanced settings. The company details window gives more detailed information on the maintenance costs.
11:45:20 <norbert79> michi_cc: Sure, will try to take a look on it later! Will that work with recent stable (1.1.3) source code or m,ainly nightly only?
11:45:40 <Eddi|zuHause> patches are always nightly-only
11:45:52 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Cheers
11:46:08 <michi_cc> Number of trackbits/roadbits etc times a constant that varies by rail/road/etc type, which means a linear cost right now. Some kind of power law would probably be even better, but for that somebody other than me has to test the current values first.
11:46:26 <norbert79> michi_cc: I see, thank you for the explanation.
11:46:34 <michi_cc> Not much sense in tuning values purely on my gameplay :)
11:46:35 <norbert79> appe: Might be also something for you too
11:46:45 <appe> IM AWAKE
11:46:46 <appe> yes
11:46:46 <appe> oh
11:46:48 <appe> sorry, what?
11:46:50 <norbert79> :)
11:47:00 <norbert79> appe: Morning sunshine... Check backlog :)
11:47:16 <norbert79> <michi_cc> norbert79: Please test and tune/verify the new values in table/pricebase.h and table/railtypes.h.
11:47:29 <appe> fantastic
11:47:32 <appe> ill try it when i get home
11:47:45 <norbert79> MNIM: You might be interested in this too
11:51:47 <norbert79> michi_cc: Thank you for your offer, I am interested! Let's hope wife won't nag me
11:54:34 <MNIM> What does it do?
11:54:53 <norbert79> MNIM: The maintenance costs
11:54:58 <MNIM> ah
11:55:01 <norbert79> MNIM: What we were talking about before
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11:57:47 <MNIM> ah, yeah.
11:58:00 <MNIM> does it also take into count town roads?
11:59:10 <norbert79> michi_cc: copying MNIM's question, does it take all types into consideration?
11:59:14 <MNIM> it would be nice to have upon town growth have something check if a company-owned road now falls within a town zone and then change ownership
11:59:31 <norbert79> MNIM: From backlog: <michi_cc> Number of trackbits/roadbits etc times a constant that varies by rail/road/etc type, which means a linear cost right now. Some kind of power law would probably be even better, but for that somebody other than me has to test the current values first.
12:00:04 <norbert79> but it's great for a start
12:00:18 <MNIM> or, if a road is past a certain age, void company ownership
12:00:25 <michi_cc> It doesn't change current ownership behaviour.
12:02:31 <michi_cc> Losing ownership of roads to a town would be a different patch that shoudn't be mixed.
12:03:08 <norbert79> I would just go for the way of just losing the roads, like with age the roads would just hit a certain aging status, that they would just "fall apart"
12:03:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it could be part of roadtypes. when a town decides to "upgrade" a road, it might change ownership
12:03:55 <norbert79> what do you mean by 'upgrading", like placing concerete at it's side?
12:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
12:04:23 <norbert79> hmm, but that does happen way too often, when giving a town money for new buildings
12:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a fully thought through feature :p
12:05:19 <norbert79> Sure, I am also just imagning it :)
12:05:28 <norbert79> Playing with "what-if" :)
12:07:24 <MNIM> playing what if is the mother of all progress, isn't it?
12:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: here are my previous thoughts about town roads vs. roadtypes:
12:08:53 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I think Part 1 to part 3 can be done easy, NuTracks also has proven, that it is manageble
12:08:59 <norbert79> manageble
12:10:15 <norbert79> yet I would just use different roadtypes, not specify 'one way' roads... It's the materials matter, what they are coming from... Concrete is also missing
12:10:34 <norbert79> I like Part 2
12:11:18 <norbert79> Part 3... Well, agree partly, because we are the company owners, we are asked on building the connections between towns
12:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> part 3 is something similar to river generation
12:13:02 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Yet I think that should depend on the time-date the game starts. For example while a new game starts around 2010 you could imagine good connections, but around 1900 the roads should not be even there between towns
12:13:18 <Terkhen> maybe part 3 should take into account destinations; if many passengers want to travel between two towns, build a road between them to entice companies to establish new routes
12:13:45 <norbert79> Terkhen: Good thinking
12:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: i disagree. except motorways, most roads have existed for many centuries
12:14:16 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: You as German can also remember, that the first motorway in germany appeard in 1934
12:14:25 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: We all know the reason behind but still
12:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: even then, the plans were already at least a decade old
12:14:55 <norbert79> and in Hungary, there were no Motorways at all until the late 70's
12:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: but this is not about motorways
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12:15:52 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Sure, just wanted to point out an impoirtant point, yet this is also what I have mentioned. Even if there are roads between towns, they should be the gravel ones, or old dirt-tracks
12:16:18 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: But not all the twons are connected to each other...
12:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that can be adjusted by the roadtype grf
12:16:40 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Like ehwn two villages are connected, but only in one direction and one road only
12:16:51 <MNIM> eddi: something like that, yes, though Id propose a slight increase in speed
12:17:11 <MNIM> of course this should be adjustable by parameters.
12:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the most problematic about part 3 is probably creating a steiner-tree between towns.
12:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so 3 towns in a triangle do not neccessarily have 3 point-to-point roads, but instead they meet somewhere in the middle
12:19:19 <norbert79> depends also on the culture... Hungariasn roads tended to be centralized and radius like, where the capital was the main centre, and roads started into all directions. And there is the grid method too
12:19:32 <norbert79> Not always... sometimes they never meet at all
12:19:44 <norbert79> but just are being connected to each other in series by one road
12:20:33 <norbert79> depends also on the culture
12:20:42 <norbert79> like take the desert scenario
12:20:58 <norbert79> it's just mostly 1 road, which goes through several smaller towns
12:21:02 <norbert79> if there is a road at all
12:21:31 <Terkhen> NewGRF road types -> use dirt roads :P
12:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> callback 18 for roadtypes :)
12:22:48 <planetmaker> hehe
12:22:59 <planetmaker> available in openttd 2.0 or so ;-)
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12:25:09 <Terkhen> :P
12:25:40 <Eddi|zuHause> how do AIs handle railtypes currently?
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12:26:31 <appe> do you ever use the multiplayers?
12:26:47 <appe> i tried it back in the days when openttd was transport tycoon
12:26:51 <appe> it sucked, and i havent tried it since
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12:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i only play single player
12:30:30 <MNIM> hmmmmh.
12:30:41 <MNIM> I wish I could build bridges over stations sometimes
12:31:36 <llugo> I wish I could build stations on bridges sometimes :)
12:32:08 <norbert79> "Hey dude, I heard you like bridges..." :D
12:32:30 <norbert79> "So we built a bridge in your bridge, so you can station there"
12:34:40 <norbert79> Oh, sorry, it's "yo dawg"
12:37:06 <MNIM> it's true, though
12:38:12 <MNIM> it'd be nice to pull off something like amsterdam sloterdijk:
12:38:13 <MNIM>
12:39:04 <norbert79> MNIM: Neat.. But I thought there as NewGRF already out providing such
12:39:05 <llugo> well there is a station grf which tries to replicate this..
12:40:42 <llugo> mtss iirc
12:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> not exactly this, but Berlin main station
12:51:40 <appe> arent there lots of grf for real life stations?
12:51:45 <appe> id love to see that
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13:13:48 <erik1984> Hi all. Just a little thing in openttd that always confuses me: Where are the north, west, south and east on the map?
13:14:07 <erik1984> For example the top-right corner, what direction is that?
13:15:12 <planetmaker> where are North, East, South and West on a normal map?
13:16:13 <planetmaker> Same thing applies here, too. North is up
13:16:46 <peter1138> in minecraft, the sun rises from the north
13:17:14 <planetmaker> look at the right time and place and that's nothing to be surprised about
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13:19:53 <erik1984> So the tile with coordinates 1x1x0 is North-East?
13:20:06 <Elukka> is it really straight up?
13:20:08 <Elukka> diagonally
13:21:08 <Belugas> hi
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13:21:57 <Eddi|zuHause> erik1984: at what position is the 1x1 tile on the map?
13:21:59 <andythenorth>
13:23:16 <andythenorth> "I like trains"
13:24:52 <erik1984> Eddi: That's hard to tell because of the rotation however I would say top-right. or just top, depends on how you look at it :P
13:25:31 <MNIM> ...right
13:25:33 <Yexo> the source code has "north" defined as the top of your screen, "east" as right of the screen etc.
13:25:43 <Yexo> to tile 1x1 would be "north" / "top"
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13:28:58 <Elukka> andy, how odd
13:29:01 <Elukka> i ran into that just the other day
13:29:10 <Elukka>
13:30:45 * andythenorth is definitely north
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13:32:26 <Elukka> i assumed north would be the upper left for some reason
13:33:25 <appe>
13:33:30 <appe> yes/no? :|
13:33:50 <erik1984> Yexo: That makes sense if I look at how stations are named automatically.
13:34:44 <norbert79> appe: Ehm, not everyone of us has Spotify, or put it to public please
13:36:51 <appe> hold on.
13:37:37 <norbert79> appe: And the issue is, that Spotify is limited to Windows/Mac, and to some specific countries
13:37:51 <appe>
13:37:55 <appe> there we are
13:38:15 <norbert79> appe: thank you, real kind
13:39:11 <norbert79> love the directory structure :))
13:39:14 <norbert79> poo...
13:40:03 <appe> i think i should change that.
13:41:02 <norbert79> Advisable
13:41:08 <norbert79> :)
13:41:34 <appe> i started that to be able to easily dump stuff on the internet
13:42:18 <appe> though, when sending links to labels, etc, it was a revelation of kind when reading out the full path of:"
13:42:36 <appe> and people started asking "SFW?"
13:45:29 <Belugas> SFW? Stop Feeding whales?
13:46:40 <appe> exactly!
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13:48:17 <norbert79> appe: Hmm, Ambience... But did you walk around the local market? :D
13:48:36 <norbert79> Interesting guy at around 2:30
13:49:12 <norbert79> This reminds me a bit on Aural Planet
13:49:56 <appe> remember, this is 2009 ;)
13:50:05 <appe> for the new stuff, id suggest the link above.
13:50:11 <norbert79> sure I do, but 2009 was just like yesterday :)
13:50:24 <appe> back in the day, i used to walk around forests and cities with huge headphones and a recorder
13:50:34 <appe> add reverb, mix properly and eat with static.
13:57:11 <norbert79> Well, it was interesting...
13:57:51 <norbert79> What is the style you are following?
13:57:58 <norbert79> Ambience, chill-out?
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14:14:24 <erik1984> Yay, refitting all my trains to maglev... :( What's the best strategy for that?
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14:15:47 <MNIM> none, really
14:16:19 <norbert79> erik1984: Well, depends. On the network, ammount of stations, etc
14:16:41 <norbert79> erik1984: I normally do the transformation between stations, starting with the least complicated ones
14:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the best strategy is to not do it...
14:17:04 <norbert79> erik1984: Sometimes I just send every train to the service stations, transform a section, rebuild trains
14:17:12 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Unless you are brave :)
14:17:18 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: and love challenges
14:17:30 <appe> norbert79: the first one is not even music. most people refer to it as audio art.
14:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but if you really want to do it, use the universal railtype grf
14:17:40 <appe> norbert79: the second one is something idm-ish, i guess.
14:17:44 <norbert79> appe: I see
14:17:58 <norbert79> appe: Well, interesting concept... Ever tried to put these into pictures?
14:19:04 <norbert79> Hmm, might be interesting testing OpenTTD generic OpenTTD binaries under TinyCore Linux
14:19:58 <appe> norbert79: pictures? movies? :>
14:20:39 <erik1984> I have one big network so I can't (or it's hard to) convert individual parts without messing up traffic. So I do it all at once... just a lot of work especially because most trains have different orders. If they all have the same direction I could just build one maglev and clone it
14:20:43 <norbert79> appe: I am thinking more about putting these musical experessions into more pictures... Not really a movie/recording, but more like a morphing picture-slideshow like
14:21:08 <erik1984> On the other hand it could be worse, I don't have hundreds of trains.
14:24:31 <appe> norbert79: oh.
14:24:33 <appe> norbert79: please do
14:24:48 <norbert79> appe: No, I mean did you try something like this?
14:27:33 <Belugas> now... this is starting to get interesting. appe, do you have some recordings of those?
14:28:17 <Belugas> ho.. yes... you do..
14:28:43 <appe> norbert79: nope, never. i have my plans for video, but i havent really attempted anything
14:28:58 <appe> i have terabytes of sound art since i started 2003.
14:33:45 <norbert79> later
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14:52:47 <Elukka> i really don't get america
14:53:04 <Elukka> "hey wisconsin here's $800 million in federal funding for that high speed rail you probably want to build"
14:53:11 <Elukka> and wisconsin goes "NO, WE DON'T WANT YOUR TRAINS OR YOUR MONEY"
14:55:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it does make sense when you consider that federal funding (or withdrawal thereof) is the only real lever the federal government has over the individual state governments
14:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> like "if you lower legal drinking age we will cut your funding for motorways"
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15:02:38 <Elukka> it's interesting that they'd have funding for high speed rail in several states, just everyone goes "nope"
15:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody in the states goes by rail
15:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> except on commuter lines
15:03:43 <Elukka> yeah because they barely have any passenger trains
15:03:44 <Eddi|zuHause> every longer distance is done by planes
15:03:59 <__ln__> Elukka: that's not entirely true either
15:04:07 <Elukka> the northeast corridor is the one busy line
15:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, we went by train from new york to philadelphia
15:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and we got stuck right outside philadelphia because of signal damage
15:06:22 <__ln__> Elukka: it is possible to get from east to west by train, which is *a lot* of miles. so it's wrong to say they have "barely any" trains.
15:07:48 <Elukka> it's possible to go from madrid to beijing by train, doesn't mean that route is used much
15:12:36 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody suggested that
15:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody demands that either
15:13:19 <__ln__>
15:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the medium distances that are supposed to be the strong suit for trains. like anything up to 1000km
15:13:56 <__ln__> this 43-hour route from Chicago to Los Angeles could be interesting.
15:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: or you could fly in 4 hours, for 1/10th of the price
15:15:18 <Elukka> it's the regional flights that would make sense to replace with high speed rail for a bunch of reaosns
15:16:01 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: actually, if you book in advance, it's as little as ~$160
15:16:10 <Elukka> it'd have a good shot of being faster too due to all the post 9/11 crap at airports
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15:17:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: if trains in the US get any kind of market share, they'd get equally as much share of the 9/11 crap
15:18:15 <Elukka> dunno
15:18:19 <Elukka> they certainly haven't elsewhere
15:19:06 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: besides, i've flown SFO-Washington D.C. sitting in the very middle seat of a B777, and i can't say it was very *interesting* as far as seeing out of the windows is concerned.
15:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: you don't see anything out of an ICE window either, if it's enclosed within tunnels or noise-protection walls
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15:23:27 <Belugas> so... bottom line... drive your car and enjoy the scenery!
15:24:09 <Elukka> drive your car, consume all the oil, destroy the environment :P
15:24:48 <__ln__> the cars that i've driven didn't consume oil but gasoline
15:25:43 <Elukka> and what do you think that is made of?
15:27:06 <__ln__> it's not made of, it is purchased at gas stations obviously
15:27:35 <Belugas> choose : enjoy the scenery and pollute, or scrutinize the tunnels-walls-wings
15:28:04 <Elukka> yes, it's a natural resource that occurs within gas pumps
15:28:07 <Belugas> or even better... ride a bycicle
15:28:19 <Belugas> bicycle
15:28:32 <Elukka> i do travel more by car than i'd like
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15:32:01 <MNIM> actually, most trains, at least in europe, are effective at far shorter distances.
15:32:14 <MNIM> i, for an example, had to study in a dark and distant past.
15:32:43 <MNIM> with bus and train, I was there within the hour. half hour bus ride, half hour train.
15:32:58 <MNIM> with a car you'll need to factor in at least another half hour
15:34:46 <__ln__> i doubt that's possible here even in optimal circumstances
15:36:54 <MNIM> yeah, the NL is *the* most densely built country on the planet, so public transport has an advantage
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15:39:07 <__ln__> more like 20 mins by car, 60 minutes by public transport
15:39:25 <planetmaker> MNIM: that's untrue, if you consider the land which actually is available to cultivation
15:40:15 <Belugas> haaa... efficiency, speed, less time... where are the values like.. enjoying life, treasure the moment, capture the instant and make it yours...
15:40:36 <Belugas> and give me a double coffee,please...
15:41:17 <Elukka> when you're trying to get to work you want speed because you don't want to have to wake up at 6 am and get to home at 8 pm
15:43:21 <Eddi|zuHause> <__ln__> more like 20 mins by car, 60 minutes by public transport <-- that's pretty much my observation as well
15:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as you go outside the major cities, public transport is really inferior
15:43:51 <__ln__> Belugas: spending less time on work/school trips directly helps one spend more time enjoying life
15:45:10 <Belugas> well... you guyes were talking about long roads, 1000km and more...
15:45:42 <Belugas> i use the bus to get to work, 45 minutes, while in car, due to rush hours, it would taek me at least 1.5 hour
15:55:29 <MNIM> planetmaker: nope, not true.
15:55:57 <MNIM> for an example, two thirds of this whole country was no land before it humans meddled with it.
15:59:28 <MNIM> then, the 1/3rd that was there before, most of it is actually cultivated. what passes for 'nature' here is planted forest, dug-out creeks, artificially raised dunes, dug out peat areas. Our streams were first straightened with steam power, then made winding again with diesel power because straight streams contain less water than bendy ones.
16:01:04 <MNIM> the one 'mountain' we have (321m) is less than half of what it used to be, we dig it's sides for building materials. the remaining half is tunneled so much you could hide city in it.
16:02:31 <MNIM> in the netherlands you cannot get on a bike and disappear into a forest, only to find civilization again after having been lost for a whole day.
16:04:12 <planetmaker> my point. Thus the inhabitable land in Japan is more densely populated
16:04:13 <MNIM> most of our longer 'mountainbike trails' are 50% asphalt, since you can only put so much trail in a square mile of forest before you need to get on the road and drive another mile to find a new patch of trees.
16:05:39 <MNIM> mweh, japan has more inhabitable land, true
16:06:00 <planetmaker> in the Netherland everything is basically habitable
16:06:19 <MNIM> well, apart from the water, yes
16:06:52 <__ln__> what's wrong with water
16:07:26 <MNIM> there are some pieces that would prove to be a nightmare to build on, though, as the ground can be incredibly soft and shifty
16:07:41 <MNIM> __ln__: nothing. in fact, we build houses on it
16:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: actually i said medium distance. something around 100-1000km
16:13:43 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: that may not be medium in canada
16:13:57 <MNIM> that's long range over here :P
16:15:45 <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause, you have to agree it's a bit more than going-to-work distance ;)
16:16:06 <Belugas> althoug, 100km is indeed not a medium distance, it's rather.. small
16:16:24 <Belugas> half an hour?piece of cake :)
16:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: but only if you average on 200km/h :)
16:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> from here to berlin is 160km
16:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you usually calculate 2h on that trip
16:18:23 <MNIM> depends on what train you got, really.
16:19:19 <Belugas> oops.... right...
16:19:26 <MNIM> dutch trains easily go 160, but they go short distances and spend a lot time accelerating and decelerating
16:19:43 * Belugas should not do 3 things at the time...
16:20:40 <MNIM> they're usually still faster than cars at those distances, especially during rush hour
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16:27:03 <Elukka> the commuter EMUs here get up to 160 kph pretty fast
16:27:12 <Elukka> though lately i haven't seen them go that fast for whatever reason...
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17:25:43 <Wolf01> hello
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17:28:23 <IchGuckLive> hi all in the desert game what shoudt be prior to transport
17:30:38 <TinoDidriksen> Check the payment graphs.
17:31:13 <IchGuckLive> i did
17:31:38 <IchGuckLive> but production is very low of this high incomes
17:32:10 <IchGuckLive> i thought maybe connecting 2 large citys to own constand will be better
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17:45:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22964 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
17:45:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 59 changes by Parastais
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18:14:16 <Alberth> I usually do water or iron ore
18:14:28 <Alberth> not sure whether they are well paid though
18:14:40 <Alberth> diamonds also tend to be valuable :p
18:15:45 <Alberth> hmm, am I confusing arctic with tropical now?
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18:18:02 <Terkhen> you probably meant copper ore or OpenGFX+ Industries :P
18:18:25 <IchGuckLive> Alberth: thanks
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18:19:41 <Alberth> good point, this openttd is too complicated to remember properly :p
18:20:48 <Alberth> perhaps I should do less coding and more playing :)
18:23:05 <Terkhen> that's sometimes good for a change :P
18:23:32 <planetmaker> :-) quite
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18:24:42 * Terkhen is waiting for a YACD game :P
18:25:34 * Eddi|zuHause is waiting for a CETS game... err... wait... that's my job :p
18:25:53 <Terkhen> :)
18:26:03 <planetmaker> hehe
18:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i keep getting distracted
18:26:31 <Terkhen> that happens too :P
18:28:35 * Elukka is also waiting for a CETS game
18:28:40 * Elukka should also probably do things
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19:04:26 <andythenorth> hello
19:06:11 <Alberth> hihi
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19:16:05 <andythenorth> hmm
19:16:17 <andythenorth> did I just troll BROS?
19:16:21 <andythenorth> or is that an oxymoron
19:16:39 <appe> this is fantastic
19:16:41 <appe>
19:16:47 <appe> that's the top of an old table
19:16:51 <appe> i painted it white and black
19:16:55 <appe> and it just got sold
19:17:06 <appe> for a decent amount of money i didnt really earn
19:17:08 <andythenorth> he
19:17:14 <andythenorth> we bought some stuff like that for our office
19:17:22 <andythenorth> the price was out of proportion to the goodness
19:17:30 <andythenorth> make hay while the sun shines
19:17:33 <appe> the guy buying it thought it was special since it was un-perfect and old table
19:17:44 <andythenorth> and try not to get paid in € perhaps
19:17:44 <appe> i didnt really think anything, since im no artist.
19:17:51 <appe> hehe
19:17:57 * andythenorth shouldn't say that
19:18:01 <appe> trust me, i wont stop now
19:18:03 <Alberth> appe: there are lots of donation goals :p
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19:18:19 <appe> the worst thing that could happen is me - having them on my own walls, like it was intended
19:18:33 <andythenorth>
19:18:39 <appe> Alberth: ;)
19:19:18 <appe>
19:19:37 <appe> i have huge amounts of paint at home, wich i didnt really buy
19:19:57 <appe> and im thinking about buying big and old tables, take the top and paint it with the same colors
19:20:06 <appe> it should look decent in the apartment
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19:46:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: quite valid article
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20:21:50 <planetmaker> good night
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20:31:38 <Terkhen> good night planetmaker
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21:31:45 <Terkhen> good night
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21:49:13 <Wolf01> 'night all
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