IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-22
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07:50:44 <norbert79> morning dihidrogene-monoxide :)
07:51:11 <dihedral> i am not sure i consider that a compliment :-P
07:51:27 <norbert79> Well, water is cool. Without water there is no life.
07:52:06 <dihedral> but the name only suits a human to 90% :-P
07:52:26 <norbert79> but it keeps thing flowing :)
07:54:39 <norbert79> ...oook, I guess referring to the huge ammount of water in the ocean won't help here either...
07:55:01 <norbert79> Damn, I wanted to make a more intelligent line, and still failed. :)
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07:57:17 <appe> 21:52 < norbert79> Well, water is cool. Without water there is no life.
07:57:18 <appe> 21:53 < norbert79> nor openttd
07:57:35 <appe> and so, norbert took his ten two commandments and led the jews to freedom.
07:58:07 <norbert79> Sounds like a police-code
07:58:35 <norbert79> appe: 9:53pm over there? Australia?
07:59:13 <norbert79> Your clock is set wrong then :)
07:59:42 <norbert79> you mixed up the am/pm possibly
08:00:11 <appe> this is what happens when you ssh trough server, trough server, trough server.
08:00:28 <norbert79> yeah, you time-travle
08:00:43 <appe> with a 1,21 gigawatt psu
08:01:44 <norbert79> appe: Cool, get me some laced shoes when you will come back, it will be much cheaper in the future for sure :)
08:01:58 <dihedral> appe, that should be enough to run at least irssi
08:02:01 <norbert79> but you could also say hi to Mr. Spock when going a bit further
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08:03:37 <norbert79> I wonder if the doc ever considered the fact entering into a wall with the DeLorean while time-travel, since there was no guarantee, that there won't be a building, when traveling through time at the same spot.
08:06:20 <appe> well, when he travel back in time, that's (relatively) easy to control.
08:06:33 <norbert79> Sliders was cool, it was the first tv-series, which was closer to current theories about time, and it was also a good demonstration of the relative theory of Einstein. (They travelled through the same few hours/days all over and over again, but in different dimensions, yet they aged)
08:07:10 <norbert79> typo everything! :)
08:07:47 <appe> am i using the word correctly up there?
08:07:58 <appe> i really need to work on my english spelling, and grammar
08:08:18 <appe> im swedish, im supposed to speak better english then english peopel.
08:09:26 <norbert79> I am Hungarian, and speaking German and English, yet even I have issues, and when I get in shape with German, my English starts fading, and then it goes all around, I start working on English, then my German suffers... :)
08:09:56 <appe> wait what, it's thursday?
08:10:23 <appe> i really need to stop working like this
08:10:30 <norbert79> 22nd of September, 2011, Thursday
08:11:13 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: What's so scary about bridge action0s?
08:17:41 <planetmaker> bridges are not fully NewGRF-implemented yet
08:18:07 <planetmaker> but adding an action0 'max_height' should still be no issue
08:31:26 <appe> i think i missed out badly on this grf thing
08:31:54 <appe> i actually thought all usable grf were housed in the online content menu.
08:36:42 <planetmaker> and the remaining 10% is not their due to stubborn authors
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09:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: people will want action 1/2/3 support and stuff, it's something a heightlevel patch should not bother with...
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09:25:30 <norbert79> I need a bit more sleep
09:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i managed to get a 1.7 in my AI exam!
09:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know how...
09:26:51 <norbert79> AI exam? Well, congratulations!
09:27:07 <norbert79> 1.7 is a well done note
09:27:38 <__ln__> is the scale 1..5, 1 is best?
09:27:46 <norbert79> In the German one, yes
09:27:58 <norbert79> In Hungary it's just the opposite
09:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> actually it's 1..4 and failed
09:28:23 <__ln__> 1..5, 5 is best. (well, technically 0..5, 0 is fail)
09:28:43 <norbert79> we have no 0... It's full enough being blamed by a 1 :)
09:29:25 <norbert79> Which school you are attending Eddi|zuHause ?
09:29:29 <__ln__> failures are not usually expressed as 0, no
09:29:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the Martin Luther university of halle-wittenberg
09:30:14 <norbert79> Oh, nice, yet coming from the name I wouldn't have expected technical related topics :)
09:31:56 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: "Zentrum für Ingenieurwissenschaften", am I right?
09:32:02 <b_jonas> failures are written as 1 but are either counted as 0 in formulas or is handled specially
09:32:07 <b_jonas> or is treated as -infty
09:32:13 <b_jonas> depends on the application
09:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i am studying computer science
09:32:20 <__ln__> strange that a modern day university can be named after such a person
09:32:35 <b_jonas> __ln__: why? it's all politics
09:32:39 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Just browsing through the Uni webpage. __ln__ : Why?
09:32:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the university is over 500 years old
09:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and martin luther is a very famous and influential person around here...
09:33:23 <__ln__> because Luther has written a book called "On the Jews and Their Lies". (i haven't read it, dunno if it's any good)
09:33:31 <norbert79> And it's not the old DDR era, where all the universities and colleges had to be renamed...
09:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that's not really what he is famous for. but admittedly that has been abused in nazi times
09:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but so has wagner
09:34:56 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: No wonder really.
09:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and they're still playing wagner nowadays
09:35:21 <norbert79> Except for some German tunes, like the Horst-Wessel Lied
09:35:47 <norbert79> But we have also some portions of culture, which get or got abused often :(
09:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> except the israelis, they have some kind of trouble admitting publicly that wagner made good music
09:36:12 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Politics... :)
09:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a huge outcry recently where an israelian orchestra wanted to perform on the wagner-festspiele in bayreuth
09:37:00 <norbert79> __ln__: Hard, and touchy topics are such, and despite for many cases, where things are either black or white, still the world isn't
09:37:15 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Damn it, it's just music for Pete's sake
09:37:23 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I will never understand such people
09:37:37 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: There is no text, just classical music...
09:38:07 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: It's not like some black goth flick with texts about death and such...
09:38:30 <norbert79> Wagner is Wagner, period.
09:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: anyway, it would be really silly to reject luther's influence on germany by reducing him to that one book.
09:40:09 <norbert79> __ln__: Just think about it, views of one can change. Even to worse or better, or just different. Why to reject someone because he had a view of something at one period of a time? Shouldn't be the actions of one being judged by?
09:41:39 <norbert79> Despite if I am thinking on good things, like flowers, but keep stepping on your toe, and not saying sorry it still makes me a moron... :)
09:42:07 <MNIM> Eddi: quite probably because wagner supported nazism, was anti-zionistic and a huge promoter of Aryanism.
09:42:33 <MNIM> you can imagine most Israeli don't really like him for that
09:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: even bad people write good music
09:42:54 <MNIM> hitler made pretty decent paintings.
09:43:06 <Eddi|zuHause> charlie sheen makes funny comedy.
09:43:08 <MNIM> don't see 'em exhibited anywhere, though
09:43:17 <MNIM> eddi: now /that/ is debatable
09:43:21 <norbert79> MNIM: Despite nazism didn't start in the 30's I doubt this might be true in it's current form. Think about it, Martin Luther was born in 1483! WAY before any nazism present...
09:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but really he's a terrible person
09:43:53 <MNIM> norbert79... don't really see where luther came in the story?
09:44:06 <norbert79> MNIM: Where, the whole conversation started from it :)
09:44:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 1483 was even before the concept of "nationality" came around
09:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> really napoleon laid the foundation of nationalism in germany.
09:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it quite bite him in the arse afterwards
09:44:43 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Well, sorta
09:45:02 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: The real thing started much later, in it's that form
09:45:09 <MNIM> true. gotta love versailles, don't we.
09:45:11 <peter1138> hmm, i wonder what i did with my ambisonics patch
09:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: stop the on-topic talk!
09:45:44 <norbert79> peter1138: DUCK! :)
09:46:20 <norbert79> no, I mean duck, the movement :)
09:46:31 <peter1138> i did it based on screen position
09:47:04 <Elukka> it's amazing how long many universities have been around
09:47:13 <peter1138> so there's no vertical position
09:47:39 <Elukka> and they tend to have had continually occupied and maintained buildings through all that time
09:47:40 <norbert79> peter1138: Bah, you should use your imagination more often :)
09:47:45 <Elukka> medieval buildings that aren't ruins are a cool thing
09:48:04 <MNIM> medieval buildings that are ruins still can be a cool thing >.>
09:48:09 <norbert79> and afdter each war, we kept them rebuilding
09:48:23 <norbert79> well, not all of course
09:48:31 <peter1138> i assumed the viewpoint is in the sky
09:48:32 <Eddi|zuHause> not really that many medieval buildings around in the university
09:48:37 <peter1138> therefore everything is below you
09:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: what if the creep sneaks up on you from behind?
09:49:21 <peter1138> this is not minecraft :(
09:49:43 <peter1138> hmm, minecraft with special audio. actually it already is, i think.
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09:51:55 <Elukka> MNIM: yes, but surely intact buildings are even better :P
09:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the university buildings are more 1700-ish, so not really medieval
09:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> other buildings are more modern
09:53:08 <MNIM> elukka: true, but sadly, some of the most awesome buildings don't come in that variety any more
09:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the building where the computer science department is located is a 1920/30's barracks building
09:54:02 <Elukka> i think there's still late medieval buildings at some universities
09:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> originally used by a german air division, later by the russian occupation
09:54:17 <Elukka> guild halls are another type of building that's often preserved
09:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause> structurally renewed after the russians left in the 1990's
09:54:57 <Elukka> "Mob Quad, in Merton College, Oxford. This group of buildings was constructed in three phases and concluded in c. 1315"
09:55:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a funny story: the walls in the building are so thick that no sane WLAN could be set up
09:55:45 <MNIM> they look awesome, but it must be hell to work with a laptop there
09:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> then they switched to frequencies that are reserved for military use
09:56:06 <MNIM> anyway, that's not *too* special
09:56:13 <MNIM> I mean, no sane wlan in my house either
09:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and since then they worry that the americans could detect the use of these frequencies, and their maps showing that it's in a russian barracks territory
09:56:37 <MNIM> and that's a 70/80s house, not a medieval one
09:57:02 <Elukka> my wlan suprisingly works a fair distance outside
09:57:37 <MNIM> oh, ours does too, as long as a clear line of sight is maintained
09:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the usual distance? 300m-ish?
09:57:56 <MNIM> but as soon as you need to cross a wall, or worse, a ceiling *boom* no network
09:58:25 <MNIM> there's a school network some 200m away that I can get at better quality than mine
09:58:43 <MNIM> and that network is hidden behind a retirement home!
09:58:44 <Elukka> mine's your average cheap wlan router that sits on the third floor
09:58:49 <Elukka> works... 50ish meters outside
09:59:46 <MNIM> ours sits on the first floor in the meter cupboard
10:00:30 <MNIM> right next to a solid brick staircase with walls 30cm thick, below a strengthened concrete ceiling
10:01:40 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: if you got 1.7, what's the resolution of that scale?
10:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: .0, .3 and .7
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10:02:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's N, N+0.3 or N-0.3
10:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so in this case 2-0.3
10:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> where 1-0.3 or 4+0.3 are illegal values
10:04:38 <__ln__> our scale is {1,2,3,4,5}, nothing else
10:05:18 <__ln__> earlier we had {1,1+,1½,2-,2,2+,2½,3-,3}
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10:36:08 <appe> bah, always the exciting chemistry talk that turned out to be programing
12:29:00 <Eddi|zuHause> where did you read chemistry?!?
12:31:12 <appe> a quick look at "< Eddi|zuHause> it's N, N+0.3 or N-0.3" though we were discussin nitrogen eletron configuration.
12:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> did you know that freudian slips work for reading as well? :)
12:41:44 <appe> ill take electron configuration over ..imperial illegal scale resolution values..?
12:49:43 <__ln__> appe: since when are course grades "programming"?
12:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> when the course is "introduction to artificial intelligence"?
12:54:19 <__ln__> i've taken that course too
12:54:24 <Eddi|zuHause> although there was quite little programming involved. but programming in prolog drove some people seriously crazy :p
12:54:25 <norbert79> had something similar... Wasn't really exciting, since based on outdated information
12:54:28 <__ln__> did you have the green book?
12:54:48 <Eddi|zuHause> we did not have any green book
12:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that written by gaddafi?
12:55:01 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: The same method is still used over there too? Christ, I thought... LOL
12:55:29 <Terkhen> just the mention of prolog gives me a headache
12:55:33 <norbert79> Rather the green book, than the green mile
12:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hey, prolog is funny :)
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12:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> actually it's both, because the interpreter had some hitchhiker references :)
12:57:00 <norbert79> and Ubuntu has a Prolog compiler listed in the repos...
12:57:05 <appe> __ln__: since the time i didnt know what on earth course grades are ;).
12:58:35 <Terkhen> prolog is completely alien to my way of thinking :P
13:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> actually you can easily make an almost-imperative program in prolog ;)
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13:04:11 <planetmaker> but you need to jump over many bear traps and through many rings
13:05:23 <Terkhen> and huge headaches :P
13:05:48 <planetmaker> but it was well-suited for writing a selection programme for the choice of courses, room-assignment etc in secondary school :-P
13:06:59 <norbert79> I think Prolog just hurts real programming skills. It's typical French: differs from everything.
13:08:07 <planetmaker> that in itself is hardly hurtful
13:08:50 <norbert79> Well, it's like teaching BASIC in 2011. It helps at least giving some idea about programing, but doubt it would be something useful to learn.
13:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "BT's copper cables have a material value of 50 billion pounds, on the stock market, BT has a value of 20 billion pounds. so the "service" of BT is worth -30 billion pounds"
13:09:54 <SpComb> 'cept how much ripping those up would cost, mh
13:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: sometimes learning a language like prolog or haskell can completely change your view about coding in "normal" languages
13:10:18 * SpComb wonders if residual value of copper > value of new fibre
13:10:34 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Right, but this is also a bit risky, since it can lead you to some completly false track, or improve your skills.
13:10:46 <orudge> SpComb: rip them all up and profit!
13:10:54 <orudge> (rip them up and replace them with fibre, that is)
13:11:46 <Pinkbeast> ... what if you account for fibre being less likely to be nicked by the chavousie?
13:12:08 <orudge> Pinkbeast: alas, they're stupid enough not to realise that fibre isn't copper, or so it seems
13:12:20 <orudge> at least in the UK, there are often reports of fibre cable breaks due to people trying to nick it
13:12:35 <orudge> without realising that it's basically worthless
13:12:38 <Pinkbeast> But the more fibre you install, the less true that will be.
13:12:49 <orudge> if you go about educating the thieves, maybe ;)
13:12:51 <norbert79> orudge: So does it happen in Hungary too. Last time some main line was cut by some morons, total loss of Internet around one area of Hungary.
13:13:18 <Pinkbeast> Even without education - in the extreme case where, say, there is _never_ copper to be found, even chavs will figure it out
13:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: that's a case of bad topology
13:14:59 <Elukka> i remember an ICE-3 crashed with a freight train in the netherlands a while back due to thieves snagging some copper from the track circuit, then rewiring it so that everything looks like it works
13:15:07 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Those, who look for copper can be very ingenious finding the weak points, and then realizing no gain
13:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: aren't there supposed to be axle counters for this?
13:16:21 <norbert79> Elukka: In Hungary some copper-thieves rewired some power circuits, but then after a failure in the system the electician company eON also did some repairs, so they switched everything back, causing an overload in the systems. A block of flats lost their electrical gadgets
13:16:38 <Elukka> eddi, don't know about the details
13:17:16 <Elukka> it makes me wonder how easy that sort of thing would be to sabotage for most damage, were someone so inclined
13:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that's a case of security-relevant infrastructure not being redundant enough
13:17:32 <Elukka> why hijack a plane if you can just make trains crash on their own
13:17:39 <norbert79> Elukka: it wasn't by the mistake of eON, actually it turned out, that the theives put the system to a different circuit causing the overload peak.
13:17:59 <norbert79> Elukka: Well, think on Spain 2005. Wasn't pleasent...
13:18:24 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Securing a system in the wide-open is much more difficult, than in-doors
13:18:43 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Especially when we talk about copper-thieves
13:18:54 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: afaik the DB has regular problems with such
13:19:13 <SpComb> one of these days something it going to cause the cell phone networks to break (a proper CME event?) and then people will realize why we once had landlines
13:19:42 <norbert79> SpComb: According to EU law there is a minimum requirement of land-phones to be present in every town.
13:19:48 <orudge> SpComb: landlines are for ADSL, clearly!
13:19:49 <norbert79> SpComb: If I can recall well
13:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> copper theft occures fairly regularly, i suppose
13:20:48 <Elukka> CMEs can very well hurt the electric grid as a whole too
13:20:52 <norbert79> Well, yet there are already land-lines present, which are based on the recent VoIP techniques too. I wonder how reliable those would be in case of a catastrophic event.
13:20:53 <Elukka> landlines could die too
13:21:31 <Elukka> "Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases even shocking telegraph operators.[6] Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire.[7] Some telegraph systems appeared to continue to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.[8]"
13:21:37 <norbert79> back to old-school: Turn-phones :)
13:21:41 <SpComb> or someone breaks 3G chipers or whatever
13:22:17 * SpComb doesn't know where he'd find a landline
13:22:33 <Elukka> our power grids are another thing that seem to me like they're not nearly redundant enough
13:22:54 <Elukka> *civilization halts for a week*
13:23:10 <norbert79> would be interesting to see...
13:23:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the german power grid is said to be seriously underdeveloped
13:23:16 <norbert79> security would be the first problem
13:23:33 <norbert79> as soon the power is out, looting starts
13:24:08 * SpComb doesn't know what he'd do if he lost internet access for a week
13:24:10 <SpComb> don't even have a radio :)
13:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and with the "energy revolution" about to come, wind power is mainly generated in the north, while highest power consumption is happening in the south
13:24:34 <Elukka> not necessarily, there was a big power outage in a couple states in the US a few weeks back and i didn't hear of any looting
13:24:38 <norbert79> SpComb: Easy to try. Don't turn on your PC for a week
13:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't you like legally required to own a radio? :)
13:24:50 <Elukka> though it didn't last for a day
13:24:58 <SpComb> norbert79: phone counts
13:24:58 <norbert79> Elukka: US... That's the main point here :))
13:25:37 <norbert79> Elukka: Imagine the same around a different place, where the police-force is much weaker
13:25:48 <SpComb> and said big power outage in south california was apparently caused by some worker doing some maintenance work wrong :)
13:26:04 <SpComb> tripping some big power line and then chain-reacting to the entire state
13:26:19 <Elukka> it's amazing it's possible for one person to brick the the power grid by mistake
13:26:31 <SpComb> or rather, one failure to cascade
13:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: nah, those are "strategic" power outages so the power companies can present a reason why they need more money
13:26:48 <SpComb> I thought those ended with enron :)
13:27:02 <norbert79> Elukka: Since outsourcing, everything can happen. Just think on the "big-thumb" term coming from the financial sector
13:27:10 <SpComb> although I've heard some really bizarre stories about californian energy utility privtization
13:27:28 <SpComb> the regulations caused it to become some kind of self-feeding loop of madness
13:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> california, the land of neo-liberal ultra-capitalism
13:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> where the govenment is useless enough that nobody actually cares that they have no money
13:29:22 <norbert79> I doubt this is limited to CA/US only :)
13:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> but when an unimportant-in-the-grand-scheme country like greece runs out of money over here, all hell breaks loose
13:33:52 <Elukka> i like how our economy is built so that if it's not growing fast enough , it's in crisis
13:34:17 <Elukka> you'd think it'd be in crisis when it's shrinking
13:34:30 <Elukka> but no, it's in crisis when the rate at which it is growing is slowing down
13:34:40 <Pinkbeast> ... the minor detail that endless growth in a finite space is clearly impossible seems to have escaped us
13:35:22 <Elukka> it's either growing ever faster or crashing
13:35:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no stable state in nature
13:35:56 <Eddi|zuHause> things are growing until they fall apart
13:36:18 <Pinkbeast> I really do find this remarkable. We know perfectly well what happens when you put two bunnies in a big field of grass; you have more and more bunnies until all the grass is eaten, and then most of the bunnies die. But let the economy grow like the bunnies and it'll all be fine.
13:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the question is how often that happens
13:36:35 <Elukka> usually in nature that will result in some sort of state that is stable in the long term
13:37:28 <Elukka> take that time when organisms figured out how to photosynthesize
13:37:51 <Elukka> oxygen content in the atmosphere increased catastrophically and killed most everything
13:38:24 <Elukka> but then it settled down to around 20% oxygen
13:38:32 <Elukka> it fluctuates but it's stable enough to stay around roughly that number
13:38:40 <Eddi|zuHause> high oxygen level increases chance of a catastrophic fire outbreak
13:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: but this fluctuation is the important part. natural systems are not clean sinus curves, like biology lessons suggest. it's growth until something triggers, and then it falls apart fast
13:42:48 <Elukka> sure, but it can keep going for a billion years or two
13:42:54 <Elukka> our market economy seems rather more precarious
13:44:36 <Pinkbeast> A billion years> er but not without constant catastrophic events. Even good old Triceratops only made it to 3 million.
13:46:20 <Elukka> yeah but the atmosphere is still breathable
13:46:25 <Elukka> and in fact dinosaurs are still flying about :P
13:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> oxygen levels have high correlation with ice ages, so 100.000-ish years is probably a more accurate frequency
13:47:21 <Pinkbeast> The atmosphere is still breathable> if you'll accept that as meaning nothing too bad has happened, the market economy hasn't collapsed because we still use money. :-)
13:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> my optical mouse has somehow problems with black surfaces
13:50:26 * Pinkbeast remembers the old Sun optical mice that only worked on a metal mousemat with a specific grid pattern
13:50:38 <Elukka> hmm. new railworks tomorrow
13:50:51 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> That was my thought too.
13:50:57 <Elukka> it doesn't seem to have what i so much wish it would, though... new playable content
13:51:30 <Pinkbeast> I'm really hoping they've made at least some interface improvements
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13:52:27 <Pinkbeast> In particular, it would be really nice if user-controllable junctions were shown in the F4 track guide, to avoid the usual problem where you basically have to guess where you're expected to start controlling the points.
13:53:01 <Elukka> i'd hope there was an easier way to identify tracks too
13:53:26 <Elukka> "Go to Templecombe Upper Yard 7"
13:53:36 <Elukka> have fun counting tracks and figuring out which label is which track
13:54:11 <Elukka> do tell me if you happen to find any interesting routes/scenarios
13:54:14 <Pinkbeast> Also to see the driver and fireman's controls _at the same time_
13:54:45 <Pinkbeast> UK train sim have quite a lot of download stuff, some of which is quite good, but they charge a once-off fee for access (not a lot IIRC
13:55:34 <Elukka> any particular ones to recommend? i remember browsing it once upon a time but didn't find much that's very finished
13:55:59 <Elukka> and sometimes i wish there was something else than UK stuff for a change, though i'll take what i can right now
13:56:08 <Pinkbeast> Hard to say, I haven't played since er about the time they announced Railworks 3
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13:58:34 <Elukka> as for the official payware, i wish they'd make more complete expansion packs rather than mostly separate locomotives and stuff
13:59:30 <Pinkbeast> Complete new areas I think represent a vast amount of work... do you have a version with Newcastle-York included?
14:00:31 <Pinkbeast> I confess, I'd really like to see the North York Moors Railway in Railworks.
14:05:48 <Elukka> i do have newcastle-york
14:06:02 <Elukka> the black 5 scenario was pretty great
14:06:17 <Pinkbeast> Career Mode added a lot of scenarios, albeit with that silly scoring system.
14:06:47 <Elukka> luckily the scoring doesn't really matter
14:08:01 <Elukka> complete new routes are indeed a vast amount of work, but if they can make nearly a dozen routes for the game they can make one for an expansion pack
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15:08:28 <George> Compatibility question
15:09:31 <George> If the GRF, that is the new version of the other GRF, and has the same ID, defines other layouts on the industry ID, what bugs may it lead to?
15:11:03 <planetmaker> Easy solution: Just keep the layout but de-activate it (and use dummy graphics, if you want to remove / change the associated graphics)
15:11:06 <George> I want to understand, should I change the GRF ID in case I replace layots for the industry, or I can leave the GRFID uncanged?
15:11:19 <planetmaker> no, just increase the min_compatible version
15:11:31 <planetmaker> or... make the layout unavailable for building
15:11:36 <planetmaker> Then it's 100% safe
15:13:10 <planetmaker> A grfID change is (for OpenTTD) not necessary anymore
15:13:17 <planetmaker> even for incompatible changes
15:13:44 <planetmaker> if via action14 the min_compatible_version is set to where it was changed
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15:15:54 <planetmaker> check callback 0x28, variable 86 for the layout
15:17:00 <planetmaker> and make it easy for you to display just a plain concrete tile for each tile of that layout (no lengthy whatever :-) )
15:17:35 <planetmaker> I'm not 100% positive whether something worse will happen than wrong graphics, if you change an existing layout
15:18:07 <planetmaker> Last time I did that, it worked for me in a test game, but... results looked funky
15:18:09 <George> do I need any check for layout if I set Minimal compatible GRF version
15:18:31 <planetmaker> No. Then you made sure one cannot update a savegame to that new version and you don't have to worry
15:18:44 <planetmaker> It's like a new grfID in pre-action14 times
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15:19:22 <planetmaker> btw, set the min compatible version after you set the version
15:19:45 <planetmaker> otherwise it will be ignored
15:20:03 <planetmaker> set as in sequence to define it in the sprite(s)
15:20:34 <planetmaker> possibly the NewGRF wiki needs to mention that... I just stumbled over it the other day
15:20:56 <George> I, found that on the wiki
15:20:57 <planetmaker> no, wiki already states it
15:21:32 <George> Ok. I think I'll simply set the min version
15:21:49 <planetmaker> yup, increase the version by one and set the min version to the same
15:23:04 <George> Thank you. Just do not want to spend time on all this all code support.
15:23:33 <planetmaker> :-) You're always welcome
15:24:18 <planetmaker> And understandable. I'd do the same if I were you, I guess :-)
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15:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> now the change-newgrfs-in-running-game gui only needs to mention whether you are upgrading to a compatible or incompatible version of the grf
15:43:31 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, as you can't upgrade without removing...
15:44:04 <planetmaker> and the load gui will tell you, should you overwrite your NewGRF. It will fail to load a game with 'missing NewGRF', if the min_compatible_version is incompatible to what was used before
15:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yeah, frosch tried to make a patch for upgrading, but something held back that development...
15:45:37 <planetmaker> probably the fact that 'compatibility information' in principle cannot be trusted
15:46:21 <planetmaker> it would just be a way to replace one NewGRF by another which would need the same warning as is required now
15:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> actually that was before action 14
15:53:02 <Eddi|zuHause> when you added a grf with same id, it would ask you whether you want to replace the one you already have on the list
15:54:23 <planetmaker> I can't remember that functionality :-)
15:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> because it was never really implemented ;)
15:56:52 <planetmaker> ah, you mean only that patch allowed that? Ok :-)
15:57:13 <planetmaker> it probably still would make sense. E.g. with scenario_developer active
15:57:32 <planetmaker> but... I'll wait for the new scenario format with that ;-)
15:57:58 <planetmaker> which will allow update also for incompatible... thought that comes with a cost, too
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16:16:16 <Terkhen> at least there he's only taking over the senate
16:16:29 <planetmaker> it's the German parliament actually...
16:17:08 <Terkhen> I know, what I mean is that a month ago it seemed as if he took over the entire country here
16:17:21 <Sacro> why does "if 'written' in line:" not work?
16:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> he's earning quite a bit of resistance over here
16:18:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: depends on what you want it to do
16:19:24 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that one is awesome :P
16:19:41 <Sacro> because I wanted line[0]
16:19:43 <planetmaker> it's one of my favourites, yes :-)
16:20:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: so your variable is misnamed, should be "lines"?
16:21:44 <Sacro> no, items is an array of lines
16:22:52 <Terkhen> 28 disciples disliked this video
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17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22951 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt latvian.txt unfinished/basque.txt welsh.txt):
17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: basque - 25 changes by HerrBasque
17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by Snail_
17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 104 changes by Parastais
17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 187 changes by kazzie
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19:00:27 <Elukka> hey, some libertarians want to build their own randian paradise on an artificial island
19:00:30 <Elukka> "Details says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."
19:00:48 <Elukka> one could say the project will sink, perhaps literally
19:01:27 <Rubidium> Elukka: pff, just stop all government agencies for a few days
19:05:24 <Elukka> seems to me an artificial habitat will require more regulation, not less
19:05:48 <__ln__> is everyone very upset by what finland and dutchland did?
19:06:54 <Elukka> i haven't been able to bring myself to care yet
19:08:40 <__ln__> the local news says it caused rage all around europe.
19:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> anything specific that they did do?
19:09:53 <__ln__> prevented Bulgaria and Romania from joining the schengen area.
19:09:59 <Elukka> prevented romanian and bulgaria from joining the schengen agreement
19:17:03 <Elukka> "rage all around europe" sounds like a rather huge overstatement
19:18:50 <Elukka> title says a thing, article doesn't actually talk about it at all
19:19:31 <Alberth> nobody reads large pieces of text :p
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20:17:43 <__ln__> Good news everyone, the speed of light has finally been exceeded!
20:19:37 <Elukka> someone else put it better
20:19:39 <Elukka> "Even the scientists who ran this experiment are being incredibly skeptical of the results, requesting as much outside verification as possible, and so should you. The implications would be astounding but let's wait and see it go through the proper merit review before you get too excited."
20:22:29 <Elukka> it'd be helpful if you could send a beam of light on the same path and measure if it took the same time
20:22:37 <Elukka> if it did, it wouldn't be going faster than light
20:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> beams of light usually don't travel at light speed
20:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, there are substances where a beam of light is so slow, you could overtake it on a bike :p
20:27:23 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: can you ride a bike in such substances?
20:27:34 <Elukka> yes but what they're talking about is obviously speed of light in vacuum
20:27:42 <Eddi|zuHause> probably not, but i think it was a liquid
20:27:53 <Elukka> they just go through entire planets and don't give a crap
20:27:54 <b_jonas> also, is that horizontal? you can go faster on a bike downhill
20:28:43 <__ln__> Elukka: As far as I know there is not much vacuum between France and Italy.
20:29:02 <Elukka> i would assume they're capable of accounting for that
20:29:08 <SpComb> did they rememeber to take earth curvature into account? :)
20:29:35 <__ln__> earth is flat, why would there be a curve
20:29:49 <Elukka> you calculate how long it would take to traverse the distance at c
20:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: obviously, the earth is curved to the inside. look at your shoes. the most worn down places are the front and the back, so earth must be concave
20:31:35 <Yexo> "Alleen backup geluid is gevonden". <- what kind of translations is that?
20:32:20 <Rubidium> Yexo: the one that makes me refuse to use software translated to Dutch if I can
20:32:50 <Yexo> but openttd decided to start with dutch automatically
20:32:55 <Yexo> even though my windows install is english
20:33:19 * Rubidium blames ... whoever wrote that bit of code
20:33:49 <__ln__> i think i did, though it was modified by glx before commit.
20:34:37 <devilsadvocate> 60 nanoseconds, 17 nanoseconds. Maybe the GPS satellites were out of whack. Maybe their calculations misses some floating point precision related truncation. Maybe someone forgot to sync to an atomic clock, and maybe there is a 'flaw' in NTP that doesnt allow it to sync down to 60 _nanoseconds_. For comparison, typical and gates take about 10-20 ns to switch
20:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> bug: language detection is too intelligent!
20:34:51 <__ln__> but the whole automatic language selection thing was done with the approval of Tron, you can't argue with that.
20:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't argue with tron because he's not here... obviously
20:37:48 <Elukka> maybe they accounted for all of that but there's some as-yet-unfound relativistic effect with the earth's gravitational field
20:38:35 <Elukka> which is why they're going "well this is odd, take a look at this to see if you can make sense of it" rather than "WE BROKE THE SPEED OF LIGHT" which is what most of the media is saying
20:39:53 <Rubidium> what is the speed of light anyway? What is the point of reference?
20:41:32 <glx> Yexo: openttd uses what windows tells
20:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: it's probably the same as the "we found a new natural force" type of articles from a few months ago
20:41:50 <Yexo> glx: sure, but I can't find the windows setting
20:42:03 <Rubidium> earth is moving with a few hundred km per second through space, so... some light on one side of the earth would arrive 2000 km/s faster than at the other side
20:42:12 <Elukka> it doesn't matter where you are or at what speed relative to anything you're traveling, speed of light is always c from your perspective
20:42:20 <Yexo> display and input language are set to english, only format is set to dutch
20:43:22 <Prof_Frink> Rubidium: The speed of light is slightly faster than the speed at which ones brain melts when trying to understand relativity or quantum.
20:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: maybe there are system-settings and user-settings?
20:43:32 <Yexo> there are, all have the same value
20:43:49 <Elukka> light travels at c relative to everything
20:44:08 <Elukka> doesn't matter if you're standing still or in a starship moving at 0.99c, it still looks like it goes at c to you
20:44:20 <Elukka> don't ask me how, scary maths are involved
20:44:31 <b_jonas> oh wait, there's an obligatory link for that:
20:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: understanding 7 dimensional physics is simple. you just imagine it as arbitrary-dimensional and then view 7 as a special case
20:45:11 <b_jonas> look under "Speed of Light"
20:45:50 <Elukka> relativity makes very little intuitive sense
20:46:03 <glx> Yexo: regional parameters maybe
20:46:41 <Prof_Frink> Elukka: And if you have 2 spaceships on a head-on collision course at 0.99c each, the closing speed is somehow still less than c.
20:47:26 <Rubidium> so they see eachother coming! ;)
20:47:59 <b_jonas> Rubidium: of course they see each other. they have Sensors. those can detect anything.
20:48:39 <Elukka> well spaceships are pretty easy to detect
20:48:50 <__ln__> unless they're cloaked
20:49:02 <Elukka> it's a serious possibility that if aliens were flying around in our stellar neighborhood we would be capable of detecting them with current technology
20:49:09 <Elukka> their starships, even if they are lightyears away
20:49:21 <Elukka> space is so empty it's a very sensor-friendly environment
20:49:25 <appe> i guess this is the channel for discussing the OPERA experiment ;)
20:49:41 <appe> im hoping for a round-off error ;)
20:49:44 <Elukka> cloaking doesn't work!
20:50:11 <Prof_Frink> Tell that to the Klingons behind you.
20:50:44 <b_jonas> appe: which one is that? the gravity wave detectors on satellites?
20:51:04 <Elukka> i invested a few bucks in an IR sensor and shot them way before they got to do anything, frink
20:51:04 <appe> the OPERA experiment is the gran sasso > geneva neutrino experiment
20:51:21 <b_jonas> you know, two satellites far of each other sending laser beams and measuring how their phase changes to detect very tiny movement
20:51:41 <appe> where they (according to ereditato) measured the 69 nanosecond difference.
20:52:36 <Elukka> that's what spawned this discussion
20:54:15 <appe> i have been following the main particle acellerator for some years now. it suprises me that i didnt already know about the OPERA results.
20:56:22 <Elukka> on a more openttd note, a friend wanted to try compiling it with cargodist for me and to maybe play some multi
20:56:34 <Elukka> apparently it's quite hard and the guide on the wiki doesn't really work
20:56:58 <Elukka> he's trying to cross compile to windows on linux
20:57:07 <b_jonas> cross compiling is always hard
20:57:15 <b_jonas> you shouldn't expect the openttd wiki to guide you there
20:57:26 <Elukka> okay so what way of compiling openttd isn't hard
20:57:54 <Elukka> but last time i asked people said it's hard on windows but a breeze on linux
20:58:11 <b_jonas> I never tried on windows
20:58:27 <b_jonas> but cross-compiling from linux to windows can't be easier than native compiling on windows
20:58:37 <Elukka> so when people say it's easy to compile, it means it's easy to compile a linux binary on linux :P
20:58:54 <Yexo> Elukka: it's easy to compile a windows binary on windows
20:59:07 <Elukka> "Nothing out of the ordinary needs to be done for OpenTTD, just a few options need to be set in Makefile.config. Everthing else should be left unset / set as the default:"
20:59:16 <Elukka> apparently it's not really told what is supposed to be set there
20:59:50 <b_jonas> Elukka: also, these days you need libxz if you want to see the splash screen scenario
20:59:59 <b_jonas> um, wait, it's not called libxz
21:00:04 <b_jonas> whatever that decompression library is
21:00:14 <b_jonas> but if you don't need the splash screen, you don't need it
21:00:15 <Elukka> well, i suppose that's secondary to the game itself working
21:01:09 <Elukka> so, anyone happen to know what that 'nothing out of the ordinary' that needs to be done is?
21:01:38 <b_jonas> Elukka: you don't need to set anything if it works that way
21:01:40 <Rubidium> b_jonas: it's equally hard, or harder, to cross compile a windows binary
21:01:50 <b_jonas> you need to change settings if it doesn't work or doesn't work the way you want
21:02:22 <Rubidium> the point is that you need to perform the same steps as you would on windows (install mingw32, compile the libraries and such) with the added difficulty of having to separate native linux and windows libraries
21:02:31 <Rubidium> (and possibly headers as well)
21:02:35 <Elukka> he got it to build a linux version
21:02:38 <Elukka> just not a windows one
21:02:39 <b_jonas> Rubidium: yes, that's what I said, right?
21:03:31 <Rubidium> hmm, guess I highlighted the wrong one... it's too late already
21:04:02 <Rubidium> even then, install MSVC2008 express and then use the given libraries really isn't that hard
21:04:27 <Rubidium> what makes it hard is thinking you follow it by the letter, but somehow don't quite follow it by the letter
21:04:50 <Elukka> this guy trying to do it is way more experienced than me, i wouldn't have a chance
21:04:54 <Rubidium> (and possibly the fact that people think the wiki is outdated and change the old directx sdk link to the newest directx sdk)
21:05:26 <Rubidium> though I agree getting the required stuff for native compiling on Linux is a lot easier
21:06:30 <Elukka> it seems he's done everything according to the guide except the unexplained 'nothing out of the ordinary' parts, and can't get it to compile a windows binary
21:06:33 <Rubidium> but installing the native toolchain on Windows is significantly easier than installing an OSX toolchain on linux
21:07:37 <Elukka> just needs to know what has to be done with the makefile
21:08:10 <planetmaker> That's probably one of the most difficult things, Rubidium :-)
21:08:18 <planetmaker> when it comes to compiling
21:08:34 <planetmaker> (or many might easily do that)
21:08:45 <Rubidium> cross compiling OpenTTD to DOS is definitely easier
21:10:23 <Elukka> "the step that's failing on the guide is the 'Nothing out of the ordinary needs to be done for OpenTTD, just a few options need to be set in Makefile.config.'"
21:10:26 <Elukka> "there is no makefile.config or I'm dumb and don't know how to get one"
21:11:02 <Rubidium> Elukka: which guide is that?
21:11:24 <Rubidium> the one that says: valid for versions before r77xx?
21:11:27 <glx> we droped Makefile.config a very long time ago
21:11:42 <Elukka> well, people said to follow guides on the wiki
21:11:46 <Rubidium> Elukka: that's so horridly ancient
21:11:47 <Elukka> are there more recent ones?
21:12:01 <Rubidium> Elukka: follow the wiki for the native builds
21:12:05 <glx> usual ./configure --host --build
21:12:41 <Elukka> the wiki for native builds?
21:12:58 <Rubidium> ./configure --host=i386-mingw32msvc (for starters)
21:13:19 <Rubidium> it'll probably fail horribly as it tries to pick up native libraries
21:13:41 <Rubidium> Elukka: cross compiling isn't documented as it works like it works for most applications
21:14:40 <Elukka> then i would say it's rather misleading to present 'follow the guides on the wiki' as the solution to compiling
21:15:06 <planetmaker> Elukka: cross-compiling is nothing one usually needs nor does
21:15:07 <Rubidium> it is to compiling, but it isn't to *cross*-compiling
21:15:10 <Terkhen> Elukka: I meant of course the native build options
21:15:16 <Terkhen> I also mentioned specifically MinGW and MSVC
21:15:51 <Elukka> people also mentioned how compiling it is much easier on linux and how in fact i should just go install linux :)
21:15:56 <Terkhen> if you know how to use consoles, follow the MinGW tutorial
21:16:03 <planetmaker> you're basically demanding like "if you can read, why can't you read this old-egyptian?!"
21:16:08 <Terkhen> I updated the tutorial a few weeks ago
21:16:46 <Yexo> the vs2008 tutorial is also still uptodate
21:16:50 <__ln__> Elukka: compiling is also pretty straight-forward on Mac.
21:18:13 <Elukka> there isn't anything on the wiki guide indicating it's outdated
21:18:16 <Terkhen> btw, is Openttd doing something special to get line numbers on MSVC stack traces?
21:18:22 <Elukka> the cross compiling one i mean
21:19:20 <Terkhen> it's a wiki, someone just updated the article with a big "outdated" sign :)
21:21:03 <Rubidium> Terkhen: you mean those in crash.log?
21:21:14 <Rubidium> see os/windows/crashlog_win.cpp
21:21:33 <Terkhen> I meant the ones in the stacktrace from MSVC
21:22:21 <Terkhen> so, the pdb should include all of that information?
21:22:45 <Terkhen> thanks, then I must be doing something wrong :)
21:22:48 <glx> except it's in an external file
21:23:29 <glx> you just need to have openttd.exe and openttd.pdb in the same place
21:24:13 <glx> and pdb must be created at the same time as exe
21:25:06 <glx> that's why we store pdb next to exe in binaries ;)
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21:57:37 <appe> i was thinking about this neutrino thingy
21:57:54 <appe> we measure neutrino mass from supernovas
21:58:33 <appe> judging by the standard length between earth and supernovas, we should be able to detect neutrinos several years before supernova accurs, if neutrinos were moving faster then light.
21:59:00 <appe> but we dont, the neutrino "tops" corelates to the photons from the supernova
21:59:06 <__ln__> appe: plural: supernovae
21:59:21 <appe> my science is better then my english, i guess.
21:59:40 <appe> or as someone put it earlier today: typo thursday.
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22:12:17 <Elukka> okay, so the supernovae we're staring at with our telescopes are millions of light years away
22:12:46 <Elukka> if neutrinos were to travel a bit faster than light, so that there's noticeable gap at a distance of hundreds of kilometers... there should be a huge gap at millions of light years
22:12:47 <devilsadvocate> you have my respect
22:12:50 <Elukka> yet obviously there isn't
22:14:03 <appe> according to the experiment, a 10.000 light year supernova would have neutrino charges detected >4 years before the actual blast
22:14:48 <appe> yet, we can measure (read: sudbury neutrino observatory) neutrino charges, and even use them to determine energy and positions of exploding stars
22:17:19 <appe> at the same time, this is something we can measure ourselves
22:17:53 <appe> normal particle acellerators would have gone bonkers years ago.
22:19:26 <Elukka> we've picked up neutrinos from a supernova 6 million light years away in another galaxy
22:19:34 <Elukka> so there should have been quite the gap
22:23:10 <Elukka> ...they'd have arrived way before we started to observe neutrinos
22:23:15 <appe> since there arent any released peer reviewed paper on this yet, im asuming something might be wrong.
22:23:32 <appe> what we talk about above here is absolute clear to any particle physicist
22:23:48 <Elukka> we haven't observed a single supernova in our galaxy
22:23:59 <Elukka> well we have but wiki says the latest was in the 17th century
22:24:23 <appe> we dont have to. the neutrino we detect today is enough the make out the position and energy of a given supernova, even before we observe the photons.
22:24:42 <appe> so it's quite safe to say we already know the given speed of the given neutrino :)
22:25:05 <appe> what actually interests me more is what kind of neutrino they created
22:25:49 <appe> as far as i know, crasching hydrogen core protons on a graphite target makes electron neutrino with masses smaller then two electron volts
22:25:56 <Elukka> but in the hypothetical scenario that they do indeed move faster than light, supernova observations doesn't necessarily rule it out
22:26:31 <appe> a supernova might create tauon-neutrinos with <18MeV.
22:26:57 <appe> and: huge difference in mass = huge difference in terms of relativity.
22:27:14 <Elukka> if they can't figure this out, they should repeat the experiment in vacuum...
22:27:15 <appe> Elukka: well, no. that's the issue.
22:27:31 <Elukka> seems likely they'll figure it out somehow though
22:27:45 <appe> the OPERA test was 4*15000 collisions with the same amount of neutrino "bunch tops".
22:28:29 <Elukka> problem with this is you can't send photons on the same path to see if they travel at a slower speed?
22:28:36 <appe> even if im as sceptical as the claim is bold - im very excited. these are real CERN people with real CERN gear, and they usually doesnt mock shit around.
22:28:38 <Elukka> that wasn't supposed to be a question
22:28:44 <Elukka> accidental question mark
22:29:26 <appe> you actually can. if you have particle acellerator with a tauon neutrino gun, you can compare the two side by side.
22:29:52 <appe> and we have the technology to build it right now
22:30:04 <appe> we also have the technology to build an orion star ship
22:30:24 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
22:32:58 <Elukka> i meant they can't currently repeat the experiment with light, since light doesn't very well travel through a few hundred kilometers of rock
22:33:34 <Elukka> and orion is kinda weak and slow for a starship :P
22:34:02 <Elukka> (it's very telling of just how much energy a real starship would need when a load full of nuclear bombs is insufficient)
22:34:47 <appe> why use rock when you can use an acellerator? luckely, we have long enough been able to detect photons in such a way, that removing the numbers created from the (not so perfect) vakuum of the acellerator, we can run it, examin it and theoreticly compare it with the data from the neutrino.
22:35:22 <appe> Elukka: well, the orion project was indeed a thing of the past. people had to put their nukes somewhere. :P
22:35:50 <appe> to quote carl sagan: "dear mr. president. i have a perfect place for you to store your missiles. wink."
22:36:13 <Elukka> it remains the most powerful spacecraft engine we could build
22:37:21 <Elukka> probably will for a good long while
22:37:52 <Elukka> there aren't many engines that provide both high thrust and specific impulse (fuel efficiency essentially)
22:38:27 <Elukka> ion engines provide maybe a thousandth or less of orion's thrust at around the same specific impulse
22:38:44 <MNIM> a thousandth may be overstating the ion engine
22:38:50 <MNIM> a millionth, more like it
22:39:24 <Elukka> we have engines with excellent thrust but really crappy specific impulse (chemical rockets)
22:39:34 <Elukka> and engines with excellent specific impulse but really crappy thrust (ion)
22:39:49 <MNIM> ion engines (currently) have a horrible trust/weight ratio
22:40:17 <Elukka> the type of engine just doesn't provide for much thrust
22:41:08 <Elukka> we could also build nuclear thermal rockets which, very roughly, have half a chemical rocket's thrust but double its specific impulse
22:41:13 <Elukka> there's also VASIMR of course
22:41:28 <Elukka> which should generate rather more useful amounts of thrust than ion engines at a comparable specific impulse
22:41:34 <MNIM> currently, at this very moment, the best compromise between trust/weight/specific impulse is a LOX+LOH engine
22:42:02 <Elukka> depends, kerosene is usually better for launch vehicle first stages
22:42:08 <__ln__> not thrust by any chance
22:42:29 <MNIM> ehh, depends how you look at it.
22:42:52 <MNIM> kerosene simply has less energy/unit of fuel
22:43:03 <Elukka> yes but it's way denser
22:43:14 <devilsadvocate> ion propulsion is more useful in vaccum
22:43:15 <MNIM> exactly, that's the major difference.
22:43:31 <Elukka> devil, it doesn't even work outside vacuum
22:43:51 <devilsadvocate> Elukka: it does
22:44:01 <Elukka> well, it doesn't provide any useful amount of thrust in anything but vacuum
22:44:02 <devilsadvocate> its just that nothing would actually move
22:44:04 <MNIM> but training a fly to push against the rocket will provide more thrust
22:45:10 <devilsadvocate> but for deep space propulsion, hooking up ion accelerators to the spacecraft is right now the best bet for a reasonable propulsion system
22:45:39 <Elukka> i think nuclear thermal or VASIMR are the best bets
22:45:39 <MNIM> the key here is *deep* space
22:45:55 <Elukka> nuclear thermal if you want something you can be sure works
22:46:10 <devilsadvocate> you still need an ejectable mass
22:46:20 <Elukka> yeah, usually hydrogen
22:46:23 <MNIM> uhhh, I doubt thermonuclear rockets will ever be man-rated
22:46:45 <Elukka> they built a flight-ready upper stage nuclear thermal rocket for the Saturn V
22:46:49 <devilsadvocate> thermal may not provide sufficient thrust for a reasonable mass
22:46:49 <Elukka> it was just never flown
22:46:55 <MNIM> well, did you read over that past few times that we mentioned /thermonuclear/?
22:47:04 <MNIM> that's hardly an argument, elukka.
22:47:11 <Elukka> nuclear thermal rockets are simply a reactor that heats a working mass
22:47:25 <MNIM> they've built thermonuclear trains and aircraft!
22:47:39 <Elukka> devilsadvocate, thrust to weight ratios of 30 or so have been achieved
22:47:51 <devilsadvocate> Elukka: 'heating' things to speed them up isnt as efficient as accelerating them
22:48:07 <Pinkbeast> Surely for trains it is easier to leave the nuclear reactor besides the railway line
22:48:09 <Elukka> aerojet says LOX can be injected in a kind of afterburner at the cost of some isp, increasing thrust by at least 50%
22:48:15 <devilsadvocate> to accelerate them, you may ultimately end up using a nuclear reactor as the power source
22:48:23 <devilsadvocate> but thermal acceleration is just, meh
22:48:36 <Elukka> a nuclear thermal rocket is a nuclear reactor that heats a working mass that is expelled out the nozzle
22:49:03 <Pinkbeast> I don't see why a thermonuclear rocket couldn't be man-rated
22:49:05 <appe> exploding yourself away is not really an option for deep space
22:49:06 <devilsadvocate> it has like the suckiest efficiencies you can come up with
22:49:10 <Elukka> it has the second most thrust right after chemical rockets
22:49:24 <appe> exploding yourself into orbit and continuing on ion propulsion is the key, if you ask me.
22:49:30 <devilsadvocate> and for it to last, you need a shitload of mass
22:49:33 <Elukka> i wouldn't call a thrust to weight ratio of 30 and a specific impulse of 1000 seconds very crummy
22:49:33 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> er so why not chemical rockets then?
22:49:44 <devilsadvocate> and then you need more fuel to move the fule
22:49:48 <Elukka> because a nuclear thermal rocket has more than double the specific impulse, pinkbeast
22:50:02 <appe> i guess you are talking about exothermic reactive fuel when you say "chemical rockets"?
22:50:15 <Pinkbeast> How long will it be before I mention Project Orion oh wait
22:50:28 <Elukka> the discussion started with orion :P
22:50:36 <devilsadvocate> Elukka: i'm not talking about a single shot, i'm talking about something that you can turn on and off for extended period of time
22:50:39 <appe> the discussion started with neutrino :(
22:50:45 <Elukka> NTRs aren't single shot
22:51:07 <devilsadvocate> its much easier and more efficient to try to accelerate ions than to heat everything up
22:51:07 <Pinkbeast> Have we had "Supporters of Project Orion felt that it had potential for cheap interplanetary travel, but it lost political approval over concerns with fallout from its propulsion.", which must be roughly the dryest sentence on Wikipedia
22:51:21 <Elukka> you're just heating up propellant that's piped through the reactor
22:52:54 <Elukka> project orion and nuclear thermal are entirely different
22:53:11 <Elukka> at any rate, any fast deep space propulsion system will involve a nuclear reactor
22:53:15 <devilsadvocate> and the generally isotropic nature of thermal modes means you end up losing energy
22:53:18 <Elukka> be it VASIMR or an actual nuclear rocket
22:53:39 <Elukka> it's still more than doubly as efficient as a chemical rocket
22:53:42 <devilsadvocate> sure, you need some energy source
22:53:53 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> entirely different> I know, I'm just babbling
22:54:04 <Pinkbeast> How deep is the "deep space" you are envisaging?
22:55:10 <Elukka> say for a mars mission
22:55:42 <Pinkbeast> Orion makes getting to Mars easy. :-)
22:55:45 <Elukka> devilsadvocate, note that a nuclear thermal rocket doesn't generate electricity, so the thermal power of the reactor isn't wasted
22:56:11 * Pinkbeast and Wednesday saw George Dyson interview Freeman Dyson about it; they wanted to sent a manned mission to Jupiter.
22:56:21 <Elukka> at any rate, the numbers work out
22:56:33 <Elukka> it's good enough to be useful
22:57:43 <Elukka> timberwind nuclear thermal rocket specs
22:57:59 <Elukka> developed by the US department of energy, of all things
22:58:31 <appe> that's actually a life's goal
22:59:20 <Elukka> timberwind could be good enough to be used on a launch vehicle
22:59:36 <Pinkbeast> Even if I believed in a shiny Larry Niven technological future where growth continues forever I would be pleasantly surprised if a Dyson sphere was built in a timeframe where the builders were recognisably human.
22:59:51 <Elukka> and in space it has enough thrust to make use of the oberth effect in contrast to low thrust engines like VASIMR
23:00:05 <Pinkbeast> ... pleasantly surprised other than being long dead. :-)
23:00:28 <Pinkbeast> PS, Elukka, _when_ tomorrow do you think they're releasing Railworks 3?
23:00:38 <appe> the thing is, we will never need a dyson sphere
23:00:57 <Elukka> the launcher says 1 am UK time, so... an hour-ish?
23:02:00 <Elukka> the soviets did some things with nuclear rockets too
23:02:02 <Pinkbeast> Hmmmm. I suspect Heather will not be overly enchanted if I tell her to stay home tonight.
23:02:08 <Elukka> i don't think it got as far as the american versions though
23:02:26 <Elukka> steam just started updating at this second
23:06:18 <Elukka> hey, steam is fast for a change
23:06:28 <Elukka> won't take more than an hour or so to download
23:09:19 * Pinkbeast throws the switch marked "rei", see you in a bit...
23:22:11 <z-MaTRiX> howcome fullscreen is broken on linux in 1.1.1 ?
23:22:29 <z-MaTRiX> the top of the picture is screwed
23:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> don't report bugs for 1.1.1
23:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause> update to 1.1.3 and check whether it still exists
23:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (although i presume that to be a problem specific to your system)
23:25:17 <z-MaTRiX> ah okay anyway the 1.05 has it too
23:25:26 <z-MaTRiX> there is something with the video mode
23:26:28 <z-MaTRiX> now the whole X11 went crazy
23:30:12 <Elukka> guy trying to compile a windows binary on linux would like to know if /configure --host=i486-mingw32 suffices for cross compilation
23:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> what's preventing you from compiling on windows?
23:34:15 <z-MaTRiX> changed the x11 frequency to 60-75-85hz then back to 75hz and its normal again, the lines gone... what can cause this?
23:34:28 <Elukka> i don't have the knowhow to compile, he started doing it on linux on the assumption it was easier
23:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: nothing in openttd can cause this
23:34:49 <z-MaTRiX> was thinking about some wrong mode setting in SDL
23:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: it's either your screen, or your graphics driver
23:35:09 <Elukka> glx: any idea what more is needed?
23:35:16 <Yexo> Elukka: compiling on windows for windows is definitely easier than compiling on linux for windows
23:35:24 <Yexo> compiling on linux for linux is even easier
23:35:37 <glx> you need to cross compile required libs
23:35:58 <glx> then pass the path to cross-compiled libs to configure
23:36:16 <z-MaTRiX> yeah for linux, just uncompress, then ./configure --enable-debug=3 --without-liblzo2
23:36:21 <glx> it's way easier to compile natively on windows
23:38:01 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> not to add to the tide, but I just followed the instructions on the wiki to compile natively on Windows and it Just Worked (tm)
23:44:38 <z-MaTRiX> someone working on generalization?
23:44:51 <z-MaTRiX> right now there are many version games being hosted
23:45:28 <z-MaTRiX> į already have 5 versiont compiled
continue to next day ⏵
