IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-23
00:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that won't ever change
00:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> you will never be able to join a server that does not run the exact same version as you are
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00:14:20 <z-MaTRiX> 2 perl instances hung while compiling openttd 1.1.3
00:14:29 <z-MaTRiX> at linking binary
00:15:17 <z-MaTRiX> Linux 3.0.3-rt12 #12 SMP PREEMPT RT Fri Sep 2 19:05:55 CEST 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
00:17:15 <z-MaTRiX> ok then į reboot
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06:49:10 <norbert79> Morning
06:54:36 * norbert79 is listening to Madeon - Pop Culture @ [320kbps]
06:56:45 <norbert79> eh
06:56:58 <norbert79> I thought I haven't got this autmatically enabled
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07:20:03 <planetmaker> moin
07:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause>!/search?q=%23mundaneneutrinoexplanations
07:30:10 <Terkhen> good morning
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07:39:51 <appe> w!
07:53:23 <norbert79> Gesundheit appe! Morning planetmaker, Eddi|zuHause, Terkhen
07:57:05 <appe> :)
07:57:12 <appe> how is the realm doing?
07:57:38 <appe> flourishing with potatoes and plague?
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08:08:37 <Markk> Goedemorgen
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08:23:30 <dihedral> morningses
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11:59:25 <Markk> Gutentag.
11:59:31 <Markk> With a space in between.
12:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Mr. Gutentag is a character in family guy
12:00:14 <Markk> Is "Zahltag" deprecated or is it still in use?
12:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's generally understood
12:00:38 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, a very nice old man. ;)
12:00:51 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Mkay
12:01:00 <Markk> Is there a "newer" or a more modern word for it.
12:01:14 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
12:01:23 <Markk> Like, could you say: "Yay, Zahltag und Freitag!"?
12:04:39 <appe> halt! hammerzeit!
12:04:41 * appe dances
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12:12:15 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Hah, just realized you watch the translated version of Family Guy... Well, the English is still funnier :)
12:12:39 <norbert79> Dho you lihke pohpschtickles? :)
12:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: no, he's called that in the english version
12:12:46 <appe> <- good reading.
12:13:06 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Which series? Can't recall the character, despite seen all...
12:13:13 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I mean which episode
12:13:19 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: The puppetmaker?
12:13:30 <Markk> Yes
12:13:41 <Markk> The old nazi camp guard.
12:13:51 <norbert79> Markk: I that one. He didn't last long :) Loved the fight-scene :DD
12:13:57 <Markk> :D
12:14:28 <norbert79> Yet calling Falco a German, well, that was a tiny bit of an insult ;-)
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12:16:11 <MNIM> to the germans, or falco?
12:16:21 <norbert79> For me, cause I love Falco
12:16:23 <norbert79> :)
12:16:27 <MNIM> ...ah
12:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> can't really call that german what he speaks in his songs :p
12:19:11 <norbert79> Falco - Der Komissar
12:19:18 <norbert79> Well
12:19:34 <norbert79> Chriss replies to his singing: Taht was the most German thing I have ever done
12:19:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know
12:20:06 <norbert79> And yes, he speaks the exact lines, but with a terrible fake German accent :)
12:22:02 <norbert79> he wouldn't even try... I really find pity seeing movies, where a german character is played by one, who's look nor the talk gets even close to the real thing. Like Tom Cruise... :)
12:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> there are really worse things than that scene
12:23:49 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Let's not get Family Guy that serious. Besides, at least Germans are there to be seen, not many countries or people coming from specific countries are mentioned there anyway.
12:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there was another scene (not sure which episode) where they mention an excerpt of the Struwwelpeter :)
12:25:00 * norbert79 thinks through all 9 seasons... Please wait...
12:25:49 <Eddi|zuHause> "In der achten Staffel der US-amerikanischen Zeichentrickserie "Family Guy" (Folge: "Business Guy") wurde "Die Geschichte vom Daumenlutscher" in Form einer für die Serie typischen Zwischensequenz parodiert"
12:26:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r22952 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix: properly limit the length of strings in a choice list
12:27:17 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause:
12:27:30 <norbert79> Indeed
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12:29:44 <norbert79> I never could really understand Wikipedia's policy. The episode with the time-travel, where Steview and Brian go back in time to 1939.09.01, there is a reference to 99 Luftballon in the bunker scene. Now even though that was obvious for everyone who watched the show, and it got also included in the entry, it got removed all the time, because no other website was mentioning it, than Like if it would depend on it.
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12:33:04 <Brianetta> norbert79: It's easy to understand Wikipedia's policy. Its just not easy to understand all the harebrained interpretations of it.
12:33:05 <appe> norbert79: jeez, i didn't know that!
12:34:00 <norbert79> appe: If sarcasm or not, has all the data, even those, which Wikipedia rejected.
12:34:39 <norbert79> Brianetta: I just simply gave up Wikipedia, almost trying avoiding it, there is still no good alternative to it.
12:35:29 <Brianetta> conservapedia (:
12:35:36 <Brianetta> PLEASE don't take that as a recommendation
12:35:48 <Brianetta> or, in fact, anything other than a bad joke
12:35:51 <norbert79> I had a hunch, that smiley might have a value :)
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12:38:12 <Elukka> conservapedia is glorious
12:38:19 <Elukka> amazingly deluded and insane
12:39:45 <norbert79> Elukka: Unprecise too, just reading the entry on Hungary... Already found some incorrect points.
12:40:25 <norbert79> and it lacks a huge ammount of information
12:40:44 <Elukka> well their focus is on their fundamentalist religion
12:41:41 <Sacro> Morning Brianetta (:
12:45:31 <norbert79> Elukka: Oh my god, the Hungarian Army's logo is taken from a '5 second webpage' site, done by someone, and is about a fictious material, which has nothing to do with real life. Trustworthy site my ...
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12:46:00 <norbert79> Elukka: - Huge, damn huge fail here
12:46:38 <Elukka> try reading the article on, say, evolution :D
12:46:48 <norbert79> Elukka: I can imagine...
12:46:58 <norbert79> Elukka: Let's read something about your country.
12:47:04 <norbert79> Elukka: I am curious
12:48:32 <norbert79> Elukka: Not suprised, limited as hell...
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12:50:21 <Elukka> their articles on things not related to their politics or religion are mostly just weak but not really terrible
12:51:15 <Elukka> also they call everything they dislike liberal
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12:51:39 <norbert79> like mathematics? :) Becuase things related to History, their knowledge seems to be way below the elemntary school system.
12:51:39 <Elukka> evolution? liberal! geology? liberal as hell
12:51:43 <Elukka> healthcare? gosh darned liberal
12:52:10 <Elukka> well see the school system is liberal too so they don't go to school
12:52:12 <Elukka> (not even kidding)
12:52:28 <norbert79> *facepalm* Tell me please you are kidding...
12:52:36 <Elukka> they love homeschooling
12:52:55 <norbert79> Remarks me to the Duggert Family... Wait, let me show you:
12:53:14 <norbert79> Duggar
12:53:16 <norbert79>
12:53:46 <Elukka> ...
12:54:41 <norbert79> And their favorite:
12:55:18 <norbert79> Lovely people prasising some non-existent things. Worse even, than Star Trek fans ( me ;-) )
12:56:44 <norbert79> Alright, let's stop this rant, everyone belives in whatever would like to, until it doesn't hurt anyone else's finance or beliefs
12:57:57 <norbert79> I think we are getting bit unfair, if we keep this up...
12:59:38 <Elukka> they can believe what they will but when they start trying to dictate social policy and the morality of others through their religion, we have a problem
13:00:02 <norbert79> Sure, but many "religious" groups do that too, and that should stop, I agree
13:00:27 <norbert79> "South Park" did a quite nice summary on the cons and pros on home-schooling.
13:03:15 <Elukka> for these people it's just a method of brainwashing their kids
13:03:27 <Elukka> making sure they don't even hear of anything else
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13:08:05 <Belugas> hello
13:09:10 <peter1138> hi
13:10:31 <Belugas> hi you sir :)
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13:51:04 <dihedral> owen - feeling any better?
13:57:54 <orudge`> dihedral: in what way? In terms of my cold, a little
13:58:06 <dihedral> yes - that was what i meant :-)
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14:12:41 <Elukka> Pinkbeast: lighting improvements in ts2012 are quite significant, but performance for me is atrocious on high settings and antialiasing doesn't work
14:13:35 <Elukka> have you tried it yet?
14:16:43 <Elukka>
14:16:50 <Elukka> off tyne yard, certainly looks better than it used to
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15:38:54 <Elukka>
15:38:58 <Elukka> sciencing about them neutrinos
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15:44:42 <Rubidium> looks like a pretty boring after presentation discussion
15:45:49 <Elukka> i can't make any sense of it
15:48:30 <Elukka>
15:48:50 <Elukka> if this is the newer start screen, why am i still getting the old arctic one?
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15:59:19 <Rubidium> you're not using the 1.1 branch (or any of its derivatives)
15:59:44 <fjb> Moin
16:00:25 <Rubidium> though... it makes me wonder, why does this experiment prove that neutrinos can go faster than light?
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16:01:11 <Rubidium> wasn't space warped? Maybe the distance is (for whatever reason) shorter than they expect with the current model
16:01:59 <Rubidium> i.e. maybe it proves something resembling a wormhole
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16:04:20 <Elukka> i don't see how that'd do anythign with wormholes
16:04:29 <Elukka> some unaccounted for or undiscovered relativistic effect could do it though
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16:04:54 <Elukka> it doesn't really prove anything goes faster than light, that's just the media's take on thing
16:05:14 <Elukka> CERN is saying something more like "we dunno what's up with these results" and inviting other scientists to check them
16:05:40 <Rubidium> the neutrino enters wormhole and leaves it a couple of kilometers later in less time than it would if it were travelling at c
16:06:58 <Rubidium> so there's just a 20 km wormhole somewhere in that 730 km ;)
16:07:51 <__ln__> Rubidium: time to book your flights to Oslo
16:08:33 <Elukka> yeah i don't think wormholes are involved :P
16:08:56 <__ln__> correction: Stockholm, not Oslo
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16:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't they promise to create wormholes at CERN? :)
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16:18:42 <Elukka> i don't think so
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16:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that was a joke obviously. playing on all these world-end prophecies for when they switched on LHC
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16:38:06 <__ln__> in any case better check often
16:38:29 <Elukka> they have webcams too
16:38:29 <Elukka>
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17:35:10 <Alberth> hi
17:36:55 <Wolf01> hello
17:37:35 <planetmaker> hm... neutrinos faster than light?
17:37:45 <planetmaker> hello Alberth, hello wolf
17:38:34 <Alberth> didn't you know? very useful for sending fast messages :)
17:39:44 <planetmaker> travelling at warp 1.000025
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17:40:09 <planetmaker> but at 6sigma
17:40:53 <planetmaker> conclusion: we measured it. We took into account everything we know. And we're left with wtf?!
17:40:57 <peter1138> measurement error
17:41:00 <planetmaker> Please tell us where we did something wrong
17:41:05 <planetmaker> peter1138: over three years?
17:41:10 <Elukka> that's essentially what they're saying
17:41:20 <Elukka> the media on the other hand is going NEUTRINOS MOVE FASTER THAN LIGHT!!
17:41:34 <planetmaker> that's what they write in their abstract
17:41:38 <planetmaker> and that's what they measure
17:41:40 <Elukka> there's the thing that we picked up neutrinos from this supernova in the 80's
17:41:48 <Elukka> if CERN's numbers were right they should have arrived 4 years earlier
17:41:48 <planetmaker> yes. 1987a
17:42:13 <planetmaker> hm... 4 years?
17:42:35 <Alberth> Elukka: just because some cars travel fast, it does not mean all cars are fast
17:42:52 <planetmaker> @calc 80000 * 1.000025
17:42:52 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 80002
17:42:57 <planetmaker> @calc 80000 * 0.000025
17:42:57 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2
17:43:02 <planetmaker> well. or 2 ;-)
17:43:26 <Alberth> but it is pretty interesting nonetheless :)
17:43:31 <planetmaker> if I remember the small magelanic cloud to be 80k LY distant from here
17:43:41 <Elukka> more like 160k
17:43:45 <Elukka> so more like 4 :P
17:43:51 <planetmaker> :-)
17:44:52 <Rubidium> see... a wormhole is a much better explanation
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17:45:31 <planetmaker> hm... probably they also considered the different depth in the gravitational potential of Earth slowing down clocks differently
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22953 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt latvian.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 13 changes by Parastais
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17:47:02 <fjb> Or they forgot to unload the fast_neutrino.grf.
17:47:41 <planetmaker> or the velocity of light is simply wrong ;-)
17:48:05 <planetmaker> though that'd be laughable... time can be measured up to 10**-15...
17:48:11 <Alberth> or the GPS was broken when measuring the distance :)
17:48:30 <planetmaker> :-D
17:48:42 <planetmaker> well, but they measure positions continuously
17:48:59 <planetmaker> they show a graph of the drift of their observation sites over the years.
17:49:10 <planetmaker> even with a jump attributed to the Aqulia earthquake
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17:49:28 <Alberth> ie absurdly accurate :D
17:50:09 <planetmaker> cm to mm. Typical accuracy of differential GPS
17:50:24 <Rubidium> planetmaker: how can the velocity of light be wrong?
17:50:34 <planetmaker> It can't. It's defined ;-)
17:51:03 <Rubidium> "The metre is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1⁄299 792 458 of a second"
17:51:33 <planetmaker> yes, the meter is actually a derived unit from the speed of light
17:51:41 <planetmaker> and the time unit
17:53:03 <planetmaker> which makes sense. Nothing is more accurately measurable than time
17:53:32 <andythenorth> it's problematic to check though :P
17:53:41 <planetmaker> hm, no?
17:54:07 <planetmaker> all you need is a photo-detector and a log-in amplifier
17:54:07 <andythenorth> you don't know if the measuring rod changes length :P
17:54:20 <andythenorth> poincarre iirc
17:55:05 <planetmaker> ?
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17:56:27 <planetmaker> Alberth: they think they got the baselength accurate to 20cm
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18:37:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: (iirc) it's perfectly plausible in relativity that the geometry causes the length of the measuring rod to vary
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18:37:58 <andythenorth> my philosophy of physics is too hazy too explain it though :P
18:38:30 <Alberth> just don't travel that fast, it saves you from a lot of trouble :p
18:38:44 <andythenorth> draw a line on a balloon, then inflate the balloon a little is basically the best metaphor for it
18:39:00 <andythenorth> the line gets longer, but If you're on the surface, it's the same length
18:40:41 <andythenorth>
18:40:47 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but distances are not measured with a rod. But by travel time of light ;-)
18:40:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22954 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Allow Action4 to change text IDs 0x00D1 to 0x00E0 for feature 48.
18:41:19 <andythenorth> there's another thought experiment which proves you can't trust the speed of light to be invariant
18:41:25 <andythenorth> I forget the details :(
18:42:00 <planetmaker> Also... the length contraction is only apparent, not real. For the experiment in question all no relativistic relative velocities need to be considered.
18:42:16 <andythenorth> but which geometry is 'real'?
18:42:21 <andythenorth> real is a localised concept
18:42:25 <andythenorth> meh
18:42:47 <Alberth> andythenorth: you just get headaches from it :p
18:42:52 <andythenorth> I was never good at maths to really understand it, but I get the basics
18:42:53 <planetmaker> nah :-) The laws of physics are the same everywhere
18:43:01 <andythenorth> hmm
18:43:05 <andythenorth> that's contentious
18:43:13 <andythenorth> anyway, they are at least consistent in ttd :P
18:43:42 <andythenorth> although a 'gravitational anomaly' might be an amusing new disaster
18:44:04 <Rubidium> that's called a mine subsidence, isn't it?
18:44:22 <andythenorth> I was thinking of pulling trains back down slopes
18:45:13 <Alberth> negative gravity is disabled :)
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19:05:05 <__ln__> Wolf01: are you prepared for debris?
19:06:17 <Wolf01> I'm waiting with my arms towards the sky
19:07:15 <Prof_Frink> Wolf01: Do it right.
19:07:34 <Wolf01> ahaha
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19:15:52 <planetmaker> hm, debian has a nice "i now shut down" sound
19:17:33 <planetmaker> nice... and the update resulted in kernel panic :S
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19:23:19 <frosch123> faulty boot loader?
19:25:14 <planetmaker> hm... no. A cold restart made it now come up. Just the reboot requested after the update/grade failed. Strange
19:25:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22955 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix: guard from reading outside the silly name list
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19:27:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22956 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Codechange: Enhance TEXTID_TO_STRINGID() with an assert_compile().
19:27:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22957 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp saveload/strings_sl.cpp strings_type.h): -Codechange: SPECSTR_PLAYERNAME is actually the company name, which is derived from the town name + ' Transport'. So make sure the last constant is in sync with the town name table
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19:36:14 <Elukka> hokay. got a new cargodist binary, finally
19:36:27 <andythenorth> you europeans should insist on better canals in-game
19:36:36 <andythenorth> they're not nearly big enough :P
19:36:47 <Elukka> andythenorth: this is built against r22941, but FIRS refuses to run stating it needs r22780 or newer
19:36:51 <Elukka> any idea what's going on?
19:38:32 <planetmaker> you probably did not update it properly
19:38:43 <planetmaker> faking the revision won't do it
19:39:35 <planetmaker> it works with trunk after all :-)
19:39:58 <Terkhen> :)
19:40:44 <Elukka> update what?
19:41:15 <planetmaker> the source code?
19:41:21 <Elukka> err, i see
19:42:29 <planetmaker> newgrfs check the newgrf version
19:43:50 <Elukka> it certainly is r22941, patched with cargodist for the same
19:43:53 <Elukka> how would one update it properly?
19:45:28 <planetmaker> well. It works with trunk. So obviously the culprit is somewhere in your update procedure of that patch
19:45:37 <planetmaker> where there... hard to tell
19:48:13 <Rubidium> or compiling without a proper source repository
19:48:22 <Elukka> it's actually a friend compiling it who has way more experience with this sort of thing than i do, though he hasn't done openttd before
19:48:26 <planetmaker> oh, yes
19:48:31 <Elukka> would the game still run and work in that case?
19:48:56 <planetmaker> newgrf versions only get right automatically when compiled from a source repository.
19:49:20 <planetmaker> using the tar'ed source usually sucks. Especially in these cases
19:49:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22958 /trunk/src/saveload/ (company_sl.cpp town_sl.cpp): -Fix [FS#4778]: the savegame description and loading of savegames would crash with savegames from a patched stable (which didn't bump the savegame version)
19:49:52 <planetmaker> ok, so it's even 2nd hand info. Well. He should come here himself.
19:50:00 <planetmaker> 2nd hand too much info get lost
19:50:50 <planetmaker> but first he should use revision control software :-)
19:50:57 <Elukka>;a=commit;h=bc1fc20e9cafc0cb20511d5ca5ab560ec2ccf5d7
19:51:02 <Elukka> the source was from the snapshot link there
19:52:33 <planetmaker> he should use svn, hg or git
19:52:41 <planetmaker> Not the source download as tar ball
19:53:49 <Rubidium> planetmaker: actually, with the proper source tarball the right(ish) thing is done as well
19:54:02 <planetmaker> also newgrf version?
19:54:19 <planetmaker> now that you mentioned it, I recall having that issue (long) ago
19:54:27 <planetmaker> I guess I never since compiled an openttd tar ball
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19:55:06 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it's relatively recent
19:55:27 <planetmaker> ok, then my experience is outdated
19:55:50 <planetmaker> still I can't recommend to compile from tar balls ;-)
19:56:01 <Rubidium> that's definitely true
19:56:39 <Elukka> i see
19:56:40 <Elukka> thanks
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20:06:52 <Elukka>
20:06:56 <Elukka> unrelatedly, a neutrino detector
20:07:03 <andythenorth> planetmaker: find the forest? what forest?
20:07:16 <andythenorth> :P
20:07:29 <planetmaker> yeah :-)
20:07:39 <planetmaker> trust me, it's in the middle of the screen
20:07:47 <SpComb> I like the smiley-faces down at the bottom
20:07:57 <andythenorth> ctrl-x for trees :P
20:08:09 <planetmaker> well. I attached that screen, too, didn't I?
20:08:10 * andythenorth usually has trees off, so hadn't noticed that issue before
20:08:34 <andythenorth> the tree bases is a nice idea, but might be a pita
20:08:52 <planetmaker> oh, FooBar did that for OpenGFX. It's not that difficult to achieve actually
20:09:09 <planetmaker> and it's a nice idea and looks quite good
20:09:22 <planetmaker> iirc TTD base set might do similar
20:09:48 <Elukka> happy little neutrino sensors
20:09:58 <SpComb>
20:11:07 <planetmaker> the most difficult thing probably is to draw the tree bases such that it looks good with different kind of trees :-)
20:11:25 <planetmaker> but it could just be black spots or so.... like for houses
20:11:46 <planetmaker> and... actually I thought of adding some wood trails to the forests, andy
20:11:56 <planetmaker> let me dig...
20:12:48 <SpComb>
20:16:16 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I wondered about a ground tile overlay
20:16:20 <andythenorth> fence it off :P
20:16:30 <planetmaker> :-D
20:16:31 <andythenorth> in the uk plantations are fenced
20:16:41 <andythenorth> less so in north america, scandanavia..
20:16:42 <planetmaker> fences don't suit it IMHO. It's a forest. Not a plantation
20:16:46 <andythenorth> that would be a lot of fence
20:17:08 <andythenorth> draw a moose
20:17:52 <planetmaker> hm... I only find a screenshot of the dirt _road_, not the trail:
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20:20:04 <planetmaker> smaller, with sprites similar to this:
20:21:02 <planetmaker> hm... I only find a screenshot of the dirt _road_, not the trail: <-- shouldn't you have seen that ;-)
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20:22:07 <planetmaker> right...
20:22:48 <andythenorth> we shipped roadtypes?
20:22:50 <andythenorth> :
20:23:01 <planetmaker> :-)
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20:23:42 <planetmaker> It's just something which I can draw ;-)
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20:29:29 * andythenorth -> bed
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20:38:11 <Elukka> friend tries to compile openttd, ends up cutting himself with beer bottle cap (by accident, supposedly)
20:38:13 <Elukka> coincidence?
20:39:59 <Terkhen> I don't see the relation :P
20:41:16 <DDR> Elukka: The game has rejected him.
20:41:33 <DDR> Or: Bad luck, ow.
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20:53:39 <Elukka>
20:53:42 <Elukka> tyne yard certainly is big
21:16:09 <DDR> Elukka: What game?
21:16:21 <Elukka> railworks
21:16:35 <Elukka> or train simulator 2012 which i guess is what they call it now
21:22:20 <DDR> Thanks.
21:31:11 <Elukka> sleepytime
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21:37:14 <planetmaker> good night
21:47:38 <Terkhen> good night planetmaker
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23:15:59 <Terkhen> good night