IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-21
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06:35:26 <norbert79> Moin moin planetmaker
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07:14:44 <norbert79> It's a to-do list handler, with online functions and synchronizing, and available to almsot all OS
07:15:28 <norbert79> planetmaker: I guess this is a "not interested"
07:15:50 <appe> i like waking up phrases containing both "development" and "german".
07:17:12 <planetmaker> indeed, thanks. I don't need yet another app for managing time. I actually need none
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07:18:03 <norbert79> planetmaker: Just wanted to show you, I know you guys have lot to do, was just an idea, since it comes with synchronizing features
07:18:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
07:18:08 <appe> by the way, i fail to see any swedish train grf up there
07:18:10 <planetmaker> my phone is sufficient to keep track of important things
07:18:21 <planetmaker> which also synchronized ;-)
07:18:33 <planetmaker> appe: look harder
07:18:35 <norbert79> planetmaker: Alright, I understand, didn't want to push, just show :)
07:18:44 <norbert79> Morning dihedral :)
07:18:47 <appe> i have some decent photos of the swedish x61, x14 and NC trains, and i cant find them in the content?
07:19:17 <norbert79> appe: I have some terrific pictures on Iveco Stralis, MAN and DAF trucks, but fail to see the content in the GRF'S? :)
07:19:35 <appe> i mean, i wish to contribute if no such thing exists, that is.
07:19:55 <norbert79> Well, there are lot of documentations available
07:20:10 <norbert79> Hmm, wait.. first get grfcodec
07:20:12 <appe> i have no concept of how it's done
07:20:24 <norbert79> that's the tool for extracting or packing GRF files
07:20:30 <norbert79> sure, check OpenTTD development pages
07:20:49 <planetmaker> for writing I'd nowadays much rather suggest nml
07:20:52 <norbert79> yet I also started to develop on my own, yet never finished, but at least I can give you a start to that
07:21:10 <norbert79> planetmaker: I still see to struggle with NML... But that's maybe just my problem only
07:21:11 <appe> i would like to get the real swedish trains (with the right company colors)
07:21:29 <appe> grey x2k, white, red and yellow x14/61/x
07:21:31 <planetmaker> I've little idea about the current SwedishTrain set
07:21:40 <appe> norbert79: excellent, thank you.
07:22:12 <panna> appe: we need x11 too :)
07:22:30 <panna> if there's not one allready
07:22:48 <norbert79> appe: Here my first test-pictures in TT-Forums. Never got there finishing even one building _-_ :(
07:23:24 <appe> norbert79: would you mind pasting that link in pm?
07:23:51 <appe> planetmaker: ill check it out.
07:23:51 <pjpe> those buildings look kinda fullbright
07:24:11 <norbert79> pjpe: This is how the old block-houses used to look like...
07:24:23 <pjpe> i mean no shading or anything
07:24:39 <norbert79> pjpe: No, it hasn't got any shadow, but I never said it was finished.
07:24:51 <appe> hm, i havent yet discoverd a grf with new city buildings
07:24:56 <norbert79> pjpe: But the building texture is based on real photo, just minaturized
07:27:07 <norbert79> Jeez, this headache is killing me
07:27:15 <pjpe> some of those look full bright too
07:27:31 <norbert79> pjpe: Might be your monitor then :))
07:28:51 <norbert79> I have spent some time analyzing the block houses in Hungary, which was weird, cause some was based on French standard, many Swedish and lots of Soviet
07:29:14 <norbert79> and since we are Hungary, some have been a bit redesigned
07:29:55 <b_jonas> to make a Hungarian houses set, you'll need a way in openttd that houses get progressively ruinier in time
07:30:18 <norbert79> b_jonas: Actually my idea was using a time-limit, so after 2005 houses get renovated
07:30:27 <norbert79> b_jonas: but meanwhile yes, some additions would appear
07:30:29 <planetmaker> b_jonas: that exists
07:30:39 <norbert79> b_jonas: like side-ads, and GSM antennas on top
07:30:56 <appe> norbert79: coffee, fresh air, naked women and fat food.
07:30:57 <pjpe> watch as your cities crumble as time goes on
07:31:05 <appe> norbert79: is the solution to your dire situation, my good sir.
07:31:33 <b_jonas> norbert79: yes, but only the office blocks would be renovated, plus some inner city houses would get renovated from the outside but still very bad from the inside (so they wouldn't accept much mail and goods)
07:31:37 <norbert79> appe: Fat food, present. Naked women, have one at home, that's enoughj for me :) Fresh air, yeah, good thinking. Coffee, nah :)
07:31:53 <b_jonas> the other houses need to keep getting worse until they completely self-destruct
07:32:08 <norbert79> b_jonas: I doubt playing around with that would make too much sense, the game itself doesn't consider the circumstances that real either
07:32:23 <norbert79> Besides, OpenTTD is no Simcity, despite the idea is good :)
07:32:32 <appe> our employees are horrible with painkillers
07:32:47 <b_jonas> oh, and of course towns would like building all kinds of houses to river banks where they soon get flooded
07:32:53 <appe> and ive developed a ass whipe attitude towards it
07:33:17 <norbert79> b_jonas: Ehm, look, this isn't about simulating all kind of things, not even mentioning flooding doesn't only ocur in Hungary, despite the myths :)
07:33:52 <b_jonas> I don't think it's _only_ in Hungary
07:33:52 <norbert79> b_jonas: Also not to forget, that this needs lots of drawing and lots of coding too... If you feel joining, I would feel charmed. :)
07:34:17 <norbert79> b_jonas: Yes, but going into that much of details would just make the progress go slower, and there won't be too much visible of it within the game
07:34:27 <norbert79> b_jonas: So no need to overkill :)
07:34:35 <b_jonas> and of course, I don't want a realistic simulator
07:35:08 <norbert79> Good morning Terkhen
07:38:42 <norbert79> and I wonder, how can an application become 82 MB big, while extracted it's just around 74 MB...
07:48:25 <appe> i was wondering about some irregularities in big openttd games
07:49:00 <Terkhen> what kind of irregularities?
07:49:13 <appe> for some reason, it doesnt cache much data in the ram. when i play a big map (where my computer starts to struggle) it reads more from the hard drive then the ram.
07:49:22 <appe> i guess there is some logic behind that.
07:49:38 * planetmaker compresses random noise. Seems compression is good, if ration < 1 ;-)
07:49:48 <Terkhen> hmm... to my knowledge everything is stored in RAM
07:50:27 <planetmaker> for a running OpenTTD? I'm quite sure of that.
07:50:32 <planetmaker> would be insane, if not
07:50:33 <Terkhen> savegames are essentially snapshots of the game state in that moment
07:51:25 <appe> how much ram does a normal ottd game use? are we speaking in ten or hundreds?
07:51:52 <appe> since i could never see it jump over 100MB, but the hard drive read was at >30MB/minute.
07:52:03 <appe> wich halted when the game was paused.
07:52:19 <norbert79> How often you save your company?
07:52:26 <norbert79> I mean every month? 2? 6 months?
07:52:50 <Terkhen> @calc 2048 * 2048 * 72
07:53:07 <Terkhen> that only for terrain (in bits)
07:53:12 <DorpsGek> norbert79: 3.14159265359
07:53:14 <appe> norbert79: standard setting, i guess.
07:53:19 <appe> havent changed the autosave
07:53:25 <pjpe> a 1024 by 1024 map should be 9 mb in memory if each tile is 9 bytes
07:53:45 <Terkhen> even playing a 2048 x 1024 map would result in a big improvement
07:54:34 <appe> the size of the map doesnt really effect the hard drive read as much as the "information" does.
07:54:42 <appe> moving trains, displaying data, etc.
07:54:50 <appe> using the map is horrendous
07:55:03 <Terkhen> sorry, using the map for what?
07:57:23 <appe> zooming out the map with the vechicle view on makes my laptop go boom.
07:57:44 <pjpe> you have to draw just so much more
07:58:19 <norbert79> appe: Ever thought about the possibility, that your graphic card driver would have some issues? I used to have similar issues, but since moved to ubuntu Lucid, the Intel driver works fine.
07:59:14 <norbert79> What laptop you are using, what GFX card does it have? Some older laptops might have issues, like older Pentium 3 or 4 laptops
07:59:54 <pjpe> turn off full animation and full detail
07:59:57 <pjpe> and maybe hide buildings
08:00:20 <norbert79> and I would also check the hard-drive's fragmentation too
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08:07:47 <Elukka> british locomotives in a DB red
08:08:25 <norbert79> Looks like Schenker bought it and recoloured based on the german DB standard
08:09:13 <Elukka> they bought a company and rebranded it as DB Schenker Rail UK, at some point
08:09:29 <appe> norbert79: i guess thats possible. ill try the same savegame on a new pc today.
08:09:38 <planetmaker> hm... funny how lifestock on CHIP stations is displayed as crates ;-)
08:09:47 <norbert79> appe: sure, do so... Since I doubt it's related directly to the game.
08:22:58 <Elukka> animal treatment in ttd world is appalling
08:26:21 <Elukka> joke, read planetmaker's line :P
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08:28:37 <norbert79> well, we all end up in a box anyway... :)
08:29:00 <norbert79> some in a more expensive box, some don't :)
08:31:06 <norbert79> V453000: A basket I see there? :))
08:31:19 <norbert79> hard to identify the object :)
08:32:04 <norbert79> I see the animal's head, but the basket it's in is a bit hard to id :)
08:32:20 <V453000> well, that is .. a wagon :D
08:32:40 <norbert79> lol, the animal riding a wagon.. Nice :)
08:43:38 <planetmaker> V453000: I get more and more the feeling that the preferred climate really should be toyland ;-)
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08:44:43 <V453000> well, maglev indeed is ... weird
08:44:52 <V453000> I hope to make the rail vehicles more sane
08:44:59 <V453000> (not by much though :P)
08:48:24 <V453000> because who cares really about base set dependance, on team servers players choose as a team and on stable-ish servers, one mostly looks at his stuff so chooses appropriately
08:51:55 <norbert79> I realized yesterday why I don't like the Toyland Scenery that much in *TTD... One can get easily lost within the scenery.
08:52:30 <V453000> matter of getting used to really
08:52:32 <pjpe> toyland has nice buildings
08:52:34 <peter1138> also it makes your eyes bleed
08:52:37 <V453000> I have no problems with toyland nowadays
08:52:41 <pjpe> (in the original sprites)
08:52:45 <pjpe> but completely shit landscape
08:52:55 <norbert79> I dilike the 'trees'
08:53:17 <pjpe> but the damn grid they have in default sprites
08:53:28 <pjpe> it's like one of those optical illusion epiosodes
08:53:32 <pjpe> that you have to play with
08:53:35 <norbert79> My eyes just hurt from the trees
08:53:49 <pjpe> and then when you have the trees with the weird square grid things
08:54:05 <norbert79> pjpe: Hah, guess you never loved the alpha-channel grid using GIMP then :)
08:54:31 <norbert79> where the transparent things are the ones with the blocks :)
08:59:20 <b_jonas> luckily that's configurable
08:59:24 <V453000> dont know, I consider TTD toyland a masterpiece in its originality :)
08:59:33 <V453000> and after playing it for some time it gets feasible
09:00:12 <norbert79> V453000: Sure, but I have some issues with some of the graphics, and it lacks lot's of 'vehicles' :)
09:00:23 <norbert79> there are only 3 planes available after 2050
09:00:50 <norbert79> Yet I would imagine tons of variations, like the flying train from Back to the Future :))
09:02:32 <Elukka> <norbert79> pjpe: Hah, guess you never loved the alpha-channel grid using GIMP then :)
09:02:54 <Elukka> photoshop might do it too? dunno, if it did i swiftly changed it
09:07:51 <Terkhen> A NewGRF extending toyland would be nice
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09:09:37 <dihedral> extending it to a temperate landscape
09:09:53 <dihedral> uh - how about an ascii landscape?
09:10:24 <Terkhen> no, extending toyland itself :P
09:11:10 <norbert79> dihedral: Geeky idea
09:11:32 <dihedral> i still like the ascii star wars telnet server ^^
09:12:04 <peter1138> whatever happened to the "comic" set?
09:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> a serious case of reallife
09:12:28 <Terkhen> development halted IIRC
09:13:25 <dihedral> peter1138, that would be with planetmaker
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09:14:30 <XknarfieX> I hope someone can give me some advise!
09:14:40 <XknarfieX> I have a problem with my dedicated server...
09:15:15 <b_jonas> Terkhen: ins't there already one? like changing toyland to moon or mars or something, keeping the industry chain but renaming it
09:15:43 <XknarfieX> Its running on a linux server, and I change the permissions to 777 for openttd.cfg so that the server can write it (to generate a new map every time)
09:16:02 <XknarfieX> but for some reason it's coming up with the same map every time I restart the server...
09:16:12 <Terkhen> b_jonas: that removes toyland, I'm talking about something to improve it
09:16:21 <Terkhen> more vehicles and so on
09:16:41 <Terkhen> XknarfieX: what command do you use for starting the server?
09:16:59 <b_jonas> so you want quite the opposite: keep the style of skin for toyland but change the playability to something like temperate?
09:19:06 <Terkhen> b_jonas: kind of, it does not need to be identical to temperate... just as diverse as temperate, but still true to toyland style
09:20:08 <Terkhen> XknarfieX: hmm... I'm not sure but I think that should be regenerating the seed every time
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09:21:16 <XknarfieX> Terkhen: It's pretty strange, because I have 3 instances running on the same server, and the other 2 instances are running just fine with the map regenerating every time!
09:21:37 <Terkhen> all of them use the same openttd.cfg file?
09:21:40 <XknarfieX> Terkhen: tried to copy the config file from the other instances, but still doesn't work
09:21:52 <XknarfieX> Terkhen: 3 seperate
09:22:20 <XknarfieX> very strange, but it looks like the openttd instance saves the openttd.cfg and in that process changes the file permissions to read only
09:22:47 <planetmaker> I'm sure openttd doesn't change file permissions
09:23:10 <XknarfieX> even not when the server itself writes back the openttd.cfg file?
09:23:13 <planetmaker> does it, by chance, use a different cfg - maybe in another path of the different search pathes
09:23:39 <planetmaker> sure, the server rewrites the cfg, but...
09:23:53 <XknarfieX> planetmaker: no, it uses the right path since I don't have any other files with that server name in it!
09:23:53 <b_jonas> well, I don't know, I kind of agree with pjpe in that the graphics is kind of distracting. both the ttd and the ottd graphics.
09:24:00 <b_jonas> but then, I haven't played that much with it.
09:24:20 *** XknarfieX is now known as X-Frank-X
09:24:42 <Terkhen> I would use openttd -c to be sure
09:25:03 <X-Frank-X> Terken: ok, will try that one
09:25:11 <X-Frank-X> I can also see the -x option
09:25:20 <planetmaker> X-Frank-X: where's that cfg relative to the binary?
09:25:25 <X-Frank-X> maybe have to try that one... just thought maybe you guys had this before!
09:25:38 <X-Frank-X> Planetmaker: In the same directory as the binary
09:26:05 <planetmaker> but as it doesn't happen with your other installs it must be something very specific to that one install
09:26:19 <X-Frank-X> pretty frustrating :-P
09:26:27 <planetmaker> find out the difference
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09:26:58 <planetmaker> differently called? different versions? etc
09:27:13 <X-Frank-X> I just tried to start all over... recompile it from the start with the --enable-dedicated option and fill the directory of the first server from step 1
09:27:31 <planetmaker> "fill the directory"?
09:27:36 <X-Frank-X> but strangly enough the permissions still get changed
09:27:48 <X-Frank-X> yeah, I mean the graphic files, data dir, gm dir, etc.
09:28:09 <planetmaker> why not use the global dir? ~/.openttd ?
09:28:21 <X-Frank-X> because I was troubleshooting ;-)
09:28:59 <X-Frank-X> anyway, appreciate your help, thanks... will try to find out the differences!
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09:35:26 <panna> i want to pave the moon. is there a map for that?
09:41:47 <appe> i was wondering, how come we can't generate map of (near) any given size?
09:42:12 <appe> a ten by ten thousand map would be fantastic.
09:42:59 <peter1138> there's a patch for it
09:43:11 <peter1138> it's still limited to powers of 2 though, of course
09:43:47 <appe> peter1138: sounds logical.
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09:46:24 <planetmaker> @calc 10000*10000*9 / 1024**3
09:46:24 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.838190317154
09:46:49 <planetmaker> ^ map size scales badly ;-)
09:47:19 <planetmaker> 838 MByte for a 10k**2 map...
09:47:36 <peter1138> @calc 2048*2048*9/1024**3
09:47:36 <DorpsGek> peter1138: 0.03515625
09:47:55 <appe> ah, i didnt really consider the scale of things
09:48:11 <appe> i was kind of hoping it to be linear
09:48:16 <peter1138> and that's just the map, let alone town & industry information
09:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably get problems around 3GB
09:48:33 * peter1138 pokes Eddi|zuHause with a 64bit system
09:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> linear in number of tiles
09:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> means quadratic in map edge length
09:49:31 <appe> how does openttd handle stuff that arent monitored?
09:49:48 <peter1138> openttd is not minecraft ;)
09:50:17 <planetmaker> :-D Vehicles stop moving immediately, if not watched.
09:50:22 <planetmaker> Great concept. Lazy drivers
09:50:34 <peter1138> industries stop consuming/producing
09:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> implement openttd in a minecraft world. you already have rails
09:50:36 <appe> that is, stuff thats running (ten million trains, for instance) but is not activly seen on the monitor
09:50:56 <peter1138> it's just... not drawn...
09:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: if you close your eyes, does the world stop turning?
09:51:25 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: of course not. im talking about stuff being processed to what power.
09:51:55 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: stuff in the real world is always processed without my eyes, on a computer it isnt (or doesnt have to be).
09:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: it is not drawn. everything else is still calculated
09:52:10 <appe> and dont get me started on schrdinger effects.
09:52:22 <V453000> or would you like to make money only from the trains that you see arriving? :D
09:53:08 <appe> though, with that in mind i guess a ten by ten thousand map would not be that evil to a decent computer.
09:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> take the bigger maps patch, and start an 8kx8k map with lots of ECS industries
09:54:19 <appe> "This patch enable to play on maps up to 262144 high and up to 262144 wide, although not that large in both dimensions at once."
09:54:20 <V453000> it will definitely be evil for you though :) I get lost in 1x1k
09:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> then click on fast forward, and see what happens
09:54:24 <peter1138> although you can only go for 8192 or 16384
09:54:40 <V453000> ecs takes more CPU Eddi|zuHause ?
09:55:01 <peter1138> yes, it doesn't more stuff
09:55:12 <appe> @calc 262144*262144*9 / 1024**3
09:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it's supposed to have gotten better over the past years...
09:55:40 <peter1138> yes, it does more stuff
09:55:54 <peter1138> but then most newgrf stuff causes more stuff to happen
09:56:04 <peter1138> funky station graphics? slows you down
09:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: but last time i tried, a 2kx2k map was unplayable even without any vehicles
09:56:21 <peter1138> especially those variables that do loops
09:56:30 <appe> oh shit. why on earth havent i found this earlier.
09:57:06 <V453000> I guess that isnt even funny :D
09:57:14 <appe> you guys keep suprising me.
09:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: problem with "modern computers" is they are multicore, and openttd is not (really) multithreaded, so having a computer less than 5 years old doesn't offer any improvement anymore
10:09:44 <planetmaker> those who make openttd somewhat supporting multicore win an award
10:09:57 <planetmaker> while keeping multiplayer capability that is
10:10:39 <norbert79> And the award will be being able playing the game on multicore :))
10:10:45 <Terkhen> and keeping the code understandable :P
10:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, one idea could be to introduce "countries", each having a (rectangular, power-of-2 sized) map piece assigned
10:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> then each "country" could run on one core, like any current game. and special pieces to allow vehicles travelling between countries
10:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> kinda like SC4 cities, only that all cities actually run in parallel
10:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and synchronized
10:13:21 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: For that I think using larger timescales would be necessary.
10:13:28 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Game is already fast
10:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: no, total size of the map needn't be different. just instead of a 512x1024 map you could have 8 256x256 maps
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10:16:54 <norbert79> Spritesets for OpenTTD >= 1.1.4 (r22923) ?
10:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: that versioning seems wrong. it should say "> 1.2.0 alpha (rxxxx)"
10:18:16 <Terkhen> yes, I don't think that r22923-r22925 should be backported
10:18:34 <norbert79> Not using nightly, so you are all probably right :)
10:18:50 <Terkhen> specially because to my knowledge no NewGRF is using r22925 already
10:20:26 <planetmaker> Terkhen: it's about r22918
10:20:32 <planetmaker> which should IMHO be backported
10:20:42 <planetmaker> so, yes wrong version
10:21:13 <Terkhen> I agree, r22918 should be backported
10:21:48 <norbert79> what's so special about 22918?
10:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd log 22918
10:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 22918
10:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: not really
10:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: it's for things that do special stuff with the sprite on the map, that look weird if it's also done in the vehicle list. e.g. planes taking off, vehicles tilting, other stuff
10:25:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: or "invisible engines" being made visible in the gui
10:25:55 <Terkhen> hmm... I'm not understanding what it does then :P
10:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> currently a newgrf can provide special sprites for the depot window, and for the purchase window, but not for other guis like vehicle details or vehicle lists
10:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so vehicles that display special sprites like av8 planes taking off change their sprites both on the map and in the gui
10:27:36 <planetmaker> ok, I was stupid... I used a grfID which obviously I used before ;-)
10:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's easier than one thinks at first ;)
10:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: use gui.newgrf_show_old_versions (or similar) setting
10:28:57 <planetmaker> but using another grfID made it visible
10:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, but then it shouldn't matter. as long as the md5sum is different, it should show up
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10:30:51 <planetmaker> yes, so I thought, too...
10:30:55 <planetmaker> it's a bit mysterious
10:43:08 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: i know, and that sucks. my i5 copes well with openttd, but when the maps get bigger and bigger..
10:43:25 <appe> i fail to see why openttd isnt already multicore
10:43:52 <Elukka> turns out it's really hard to convert something to multicore after it's done
10:43:52 <peter1138> same reason most games aren't
10:44:05 <Elukka> most commercial games these days certainly are
10:44:53 <Elukka> but i've never seen multithreading being patched into a game
10:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause> most modern games that support multicore have been rewritten from scratch, instead of using a 17 year old game engine
10:45:54 <appe> i guess it would involve to much reconstruction for it to be worth it - at least at the moment.
10:46:07 <appe> maybe it's time to ditch the game engine, then?
10:46:11 <Terkhen> either they are completely rewritten or use multicore only for non core stuff
10:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> there was one attempt at making multicore support in the past
10:46:23 <planetmaker> it should be possible to skip an action0, shouldn't it?
10:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the result was 20% speed improvement on multi core systems
10:46:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and 10% speed loss on single core
10:47:08 <Terkhen> how was it implemented?
10:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, i was not involved
10:47:44 <Elukka> <appe> maybe it's time to ditch the game engine, then?
10:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly Rubidium or TrueBrain would know
10:47:48 <Elukka> who's gonna code a new one?
10:47:56 <peter1138> it could probably be done quite well if it wasn't for network play...
10:48:11 <planetmaker> network play is the culprit
10:49:08 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I know of no such thing :)
10:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember the english lesson when we learned the word "dunno"... even the bad students quickly picked it up :)
10:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: you wouldn't remember your own nick if it wasn't written down next to each of your lines :p
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10:50:11 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: who am I again?
10:50:17 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, but then darkvater got confused and always wrote "donnu" instead :)
10:50:23 <peter1138> TrueBrain, you are TrueLight
10:50:53 <peter1138> your main task in openttd is to annoy tron
10:51:01 <peter1138> (it's a simple task, mind you)
10:51:15 <TrueBrain> ah; I always thought he was there to annoy me; there it went wrong
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10:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: anyway, if you want to try a multicore approach, try something like this: 1) change the architecture of the game so instead of foreach(vehicle) { pathfinder(); move() } it does foreach(vehicle) { pathfinder }; foreach(vehicle){move}, 2) spawn a thread for each pathfinder call, lock write access to the map during this time. if all pathfinder threads resolved, do the movement.
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10:59:49 * andythenorth ponders unifying iron ore and bauxite
10:59:53 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and then what if 2 entries move through a red light?
10:59:57 <andythenorth> could have an 'ore mine'
11:00:03 <andythenorth> producing 'metal ore'
11:00:16 <Terkhen> andythenorth: read the logs :P
11:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: movement is not parallelised
11:00:23 <Terkhen> bauxite was introduced because the metal chain was boring
11:00:37 <andythenorth> in ECS? Or FIRS?
11:00:38 <appe> i actually though you were talking chemistry :(
11:00:38 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: so red lights are caught at that point
11:00:41 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: even so; one of the two cant move; so what does he do
11:00:51 <Terkhen> and it has a different role than iron ore, at least in FIRS
11:00:52 <planetmaker> unifying that leads to the road at which end we have 'primary stuff' and 'secondary stuff'
11:00:55 <andythenorth> there's also a time offset
11:01:01 <andythenorth> bauxite is C20th
11:01:09 <andythenorth> iron ore is 'all time'
11:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: one pseudo-random will stop.
11:01:21 <andythenorth> so you get a new chain to service
11:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that is not different to the current behaviour
11:01:24 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: my point being, I like your idea, but there are some corner cases to clean up for that ;)
11:01:34 <TrueBrain> it is fully deterministic atm Eddi|zuHause :)
11:01:38 <Terkhen> I never play really old games
11:01:40 <TrueBrain> the Train with the lowest ID gest through
11:01:50 * andythenorth will now go back to work :P
11:01:51 <TrueBrain> it is the reason 1 train can be waiting FOR EVER at a block
11:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: yes, but that is outside the scope of this patch
11:02:19 <Terkhen> this guy is getting more complicated to talk with over time :P
11:02:47 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: no, it is inside. Not the red light issue, but the fact that 2 trains have a path through it :)
11:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: the problem is, by the time he gets back, he has made up his mind :p
11:02:53 <TrueBrain> you will have to solve that first ;)
11:03:05 <Terkhen> and in a random way usually
11:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: without hearing the arguments you would have brought up
11:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that is unsolvable unless you implement the concept of a "signal block", which can then act as an arbiter
11:04:01 <planetmaker> @base 10 16 22918
11:04:53 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: now you are talking code with me, and im sorry to say - that's jiberish to me :)
11:04:56 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: it doesnt have to be solved as such, but it has to be protected if you paralize it ;)
11:05:16 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: as movement is not parallelised, it's a non-issue
11:05:30 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I am afraid if you look at the current code, it would kinda disagree ;)
11:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: hence point 1) :)
11:06:06 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and which is what I am saying: some corner cases to take care of :)
11:11:22 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, my point was that it a) requires some major architectural restructuring, and b) even then only touches a very small part of the game, so performance gain would be limited.
11:11:52 <TrueBrain> and in time it will just run into the same issue
11:11:57 <TrueBrain> just at a bigger number
11:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the "countries" idea might be more viable. you have some depot-like structure at map borders that makes sure that the vehicle can be transfered from one country to the other without race conditions occuring
11:16:12 <Eddi|zuHause> if you keep the current map structure, you would have a stripe of 2 void tiles between countries, which can make sure you have no effects like catchment areas that overlap the border
11:16:30 <TrueBrain> catchment area is a bit bigger than 2 :P
11:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you can cancel out search on void tiles
11:16:47 <TrueBrain> but head-to-head patch solves those things already :P
11:16:58 <appe> i guess that's a good idea, since it's rather hard to fill up 256x256 with stuff that (so badly) affects a single core on a new cpu.
11:17:05 <appe> that will also make the game economical
11:17:15 <appe> since most cores will never max out
11:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what is currently done already, otherwise you'd get catchment area at the opposite map border
11:19:24 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: ah, you want vehicles leaving one openttd games and entering another game?
11:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: basically yes
11:19:40 <b_jonas> still, how would routing work?
11:19:56 <TrueBrain> hihi, I still have an MMO concept for OpenTTD :P Lolz :)
11:19:59 <b_jonas> would you have to explicitly add the border as a waypoint?
11:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: pathfinder ends on the map border, the transfer point would have to be an explicit order
11:20:22 <b_jonas> it's probably still very hard to implement
11:20:34 <b_jonas> but at least theoretically sounds possible
11:21:17 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: anyway, just know that multicore kills every multiplayer game; less and less clients will be able to keep up with the server, when they run out of cores when the server doesnt :P
11:21:33 <b_jonas> would also allow some cheats I guess
11:21:52 <TrueBrain> (Already happens btw, when CPU MHz runs out :P)
11:22:41 <peter1138> peak cpu, just like peak oil
11:23:57 <panna> don't worry, we've got plenty of cpu's
11:24:27 <TrueBrain> plural of cpu is cpus, not cpu's. :P
11:24:36 <appe> why on earth arent the prices of goods tied to real time stock market values?
11:24:46 <appe> that would be fantastic on a europa map
11:26:03 <panna> pcs aren't realtime :PpPpp
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11:27:06 <appe> "dont ship coal from france, they went bear all night".
11:28:29 <Elukka> would you want to have to reorder your trains all the time?
11:29:12 <Elukka> truebrain, does openttd run peer to peer or server/client?
11:29:25 <TrueBrain> how would that make sense?
11:29:42 <Elukka> i was going to say peer to peer games usually seem to run at the speed of the slowest peer, but then i realized i don't even know which architecture it uses
11:30:01 <TrueBrain> I know of no games that use p2p as their network infastructure
11:30:20 <TrueBrain> (none that work anyway)
11:32:09 <Elukka> hunh. i thought a lot of games do
11:32:16 <TrueBrain> please do name me one :)
11:32:22 <Elukka> how else does it work so that the original host can leave and the game keeps going?
11:32:52 <Elukka> a fair amount of games can do that
11:32:54 <TrueBrain> the only games that support migration these days is CoD (most known I guess). It works by recollecting the information of the clients and making 1 client a server
11:33:27 <Elukka> i could have misunderstood it, then
11:33:30 <TrueBrain> it is also a really crappy method btw; dont know if you played these CoD versions :)
11:33:50 <TrueBrain> randomly you are moved to antoher server, network bandwidth shit issues .. ugh ..
11:34:08 <TrueBrain> I miss dedicated servers in those games :)
11:34:19 <TrueBrain> Elukka: problem with the p2p concept is both bandwidth, and validation
11:34:30 <Elukka> nope, but i've played multiple games where it doesn't make any difference if the host leaves, it just continues seamlessly
11:34:49 <Elukka> (nope to having not played CoD)
11:34:56 <Elukka> homeworld 2 pops to mind
11:35:10 <TrueBrain> CoD is one of the bigger tittles that tried this method. I so badly hope they never do it again ... it sucks
11:35:19 <TrueBrain> the same as: you are thrown in a server we say you will play on
11:35:19 <Elukka> actually... most RTS games
11:35:24 <TrueBrain> ffs, I just want to join a server of my liking!
11:35:41 <Elukka> "All of Relic's games have been peer to peer networking models (the original Homeworld 2 was apparently Client Server based, but most of that code was thrown out)."
11:36:24 <TrueBrain> I truly wonder what their idea of p2p is ..
11:36:36 <TrueBrain> the problem is, what if you have a modified client in your midst
11:36:49 <TrueBrain> what movement is real?
11:36:52 <Elukka> in practice it's easy to tell if one player is host or if it's peer to peer
11:36:55 <TrueBrain> does client A now see unit B at place C, or D?
11:36:56 <Elukka> because the host will have 0 ping
11:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the first problem is (not) open ports
11:37:15 <Elukka> i dunno how it's validated, seems to work though
11:37:25 <TrueBrain> so I know of games that tried the p2p concept, but they all failed so freakinglish hard
11:37:55 <TrueBrain> then again, for years I could cheat the Valve anti cheat mechanisms :p Hell, I am the reason they implemented some checks :D (ghehe)
11:37:58 <Elukka> 'all of relic's games' certainly didn't
11:38:29 <TrueBrain> that they might use 'peer to peer' (lets leave in the middle how they interperter that term), doesnt mean it works ;)
11:39:09 <TrueBrain> anyway, to come back to the concept of it: we have seen a big movement towards client-abused-as-host (in p2p or s/c models), but slowly more games are moving away from this again
11:39:14 <Elukka> "Despite these limitations this model naturally suits RTS games and it still lives on today in games like “Command and Conquer”, “Age of Empires” and “Starcraft”."
11:39:17 <TrueBrain> it is concidered to be VERY annoying by players
11:39:17 <Elukka> those games also all work :P
11:39:30 <TrueBrain> Starcraft doesnt use p2p for sure
11:40:02 <TrueBrain> (the fact you have to click Start Host and Join Host, gives that away)
11:40:05 <Elukka> i didn't think much any RTS used server/client
11:40:10 <Elukka> well, world in conflict does
11:40:20 <b_jonas> TrueBrain: isn't that because startcraft is optimized for just two players?
11:40:30 <TrueBrain> most of these games are :)
11:40:34 <Elukka> someone has to create a game room and others have to join it, doesn't matter what the underlying code does to network it
11:40:49 <Elukka> every game that uses peer to peer networking still has a "host game" button
11:40:57 <TrueBrain> Elukka: what some of thse games have is 'autosense' server. They figure out who will be best to host it
11:41:05 <Elukka> and i'm pretty sure CoD is server/client
11:41:08 <Elukka> they just took control away from the player
11:41:20 <TrueBrain> Elukka: I am 100% sure CoD is S/C
11:41:23 <TrueBrain> I told you that already
11:41:27 <TrueBrain> they use migration techniques
11:41:32 <TrueBrain> to move the host when the host goes down
11:41:36 <TrueBrain> which is the worst idea ever
11:41:50 <TrueBrain> then again CoD is just to get money from you, not to invent the industry (like CoD1 did)
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11:42:15 <Elukka> this paper says starcraft uses peer to peer
11:42:18 <TrueBrain> (as seriously, BlackOps costs 60 euro, + 15 euro per 4 maps, and there are 5 packs now ... 135 euro for a game + 20 maps? REALLY?!)
11:42:38 <norbert79> TrueBrain: A bargain, isn't it? :)
11:42:50 <TrueBrain> that people buy it, I don't understand
11:42:55 <TrueBrain> in the old days maps were FREE
11:43:00 <TrueBrain> I had 1000 maps to play on
11:43:04 <norbert79> I am also for freedom, being able to create own stuff and such
11:43:17 <Elukka> and starcraf is so popular if it was possible to cheat through its peer to peer networking it'd have been done years ago
11:43:20 <TrueBrain> Elukka: and here is a conflict in the term p2p. That is not p2p. That is peer to peer, sure, but has nothing to do with distribution. It is a client/client model (2 players)
11:43:21 <peter1138> i loved making wads
11:43:25 <norbert79> Doom introduced that, yet I was a BUILD-er with Duke Nukem and Shadow Warrior
11:43:29 <peter1138> but damn that compiler thingy was slow :)
11:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i really hate games where you cannot create random maps
11:43:45 <Elukka> what's your definition of p2p?
11:43:52 <TrueBrain> Elukka: p2p suggests distribution over clients
11:43:54 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Take your mouse, close yolur eyes, do stuff, and be suprised! :)
11:44:00 <TrueBrain> no server, a cloud of clients, all interconnected with their closest
11:44:04 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: There you go, random map!
11:44:05 <TrueBrain> Torrent as the biggest example
11:44:14 <peter1138> technically openttd could handle server switching
11:44:16 <TrueBrain> Starcraft is a basic client/client model
11:44:17 <Elukka> in these games there is no server hosting the game
11:44:24 <TrueBrain> they are all servers
11:44:29 <peter1138> all clients should have exactly the same game state, after all
11:44:29 <TrueBrain> and there is the difference in concept
11:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the worms 3d random maps were all weird
11:44:38 <TrueBrain> peter1138: ghehe; yes :P
11:44:39 <peter1138> but it would still be S/C with switching
11:44:40 <Elukka> they're all servers or all clients... isn't that pretty much what p2p means
11:44:48 <TrueBrain> peter1138: indeed, S/C migration. Ugh :P
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11:44:58 <TrueBrain> by definition, no :) But this is the problem with these terms
11:45:02 <TrueBrain> they changed a lot over the last few years
11:45:17 <TrueBrain> client/client models can not grow beyond 4 clients
11:45:21 <peter1138> they probably mean "p2p" as in "without a dedicated server"
11:45:25 <TrueBrain> after that, it becomes .... not smart :)
11:45:33 <TrueBrain> as all clients are connected to all clients
11:45:39 <TrueBrain> imagine a game of 255 (OpenTTD) clients connected
11:45:43 <Elukka> homeworld 2 did 6 players
11:45:43 <TrueBrain> 255 open ports to all 255 other players
11:45:50 <TrueBrain> 6 is streching it, it really is
11:46:08 <TrueBrain> several issues with client/client model: you _all_ need an open port in your firewall
11:46:09 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: fancy automatic network topologies
11:46:14 <TrueBrain> which is a huge issue for many home users
11:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> like hypercubes and such
11:46:25 <TrueBrain> this can be solved by having 1 client open ports to the other
11:46:29 <norbert79> What about p2p gameplay for openttd? Where the whole game acts like a torrent client, and the main server is the tracker
11:46:30 <TrueBrain> but at least 49% of the clients require that
11:46:38 <peter1138> l4d's lobby system was a pita
11:46:45 <TrueBrain> norbert79: well, that is the normal concept of the term p2p these days
11:46:52 <TrueBrain> which has nothing to do with client/client models
11:47:00 <norbert79> TrueBrain: No, that has been overruled by DHT too
11:47:08 <TrueBrain> Elukka: so reading back Elukka, I guess we started off wrong with the different definition of that term (which I also tried to point out to you :))
11:47:17 <TrueBrain> DHT is still p2p :)
11:47:20 <TrueBrain> just without server ;)
11:47:26 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Sure, but not centralized anymore
11:47:26 <TrueBrain> (well, no central server)
11:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> DHT is just a p2p-tracker :p
11:47:36 <Elukka> well, i used the definition that's generally used in gaming context :P
11:47:37 <TrueBrain> more in the idea of what is it call
11:47:45 <TrueBrain> Elukka: for the last 5 years, no more
11:47:50 <norbert79> Edonkey was centralized
11:47:51 <TrueBrain> it is an old term, nowedays called client/client
11:48:04 <TrueBrain> norbert79: doesnt have to be :)
11:48:08 <TrueBrain> also searches 'the cloud'
11:48:30 <TrueBrain> Elukka: but still, imagine OpenTTD being client/client
11:48:34 <TrueBrain> you are on a map with 16 other players
11:48:38 <TrueBrain> you have 16 outgoing connections
11:48:41 <TrueBrain> you are all talking to eachother
11:48:46 <TrueBrain> what a waste of bandwidth, CPU, ..
11:48:51 <Elukka> which one is best for openttd is something i won't try to argue :P
11:49:02 <TrueBrain> well, you did ask if we were client/client or server/client
11:49:02 <peter1138> who would provide the clock?
11:49:10 <TrueBrain> peter1138: they all have the same state ;)
11:49:26 <peter1138> sure, but currently the server provides the clock
11:49:31 <peter1138> unless they all provide a clock
11:49:34 <TrueBrain> sure; but doesn't have to be ;)
11:49:37 <peter1138> which wouldn't make seense
11:49:44 <TrueBrain> so client/clent would be possible; but ugh, please dont :P
11:49:45 <peter1138> unless you desync them all :D
11:50:10 <TrueBrain> Elukka: but there are other reasons not to use client/client. Validation is another issue (again). Who to trust?
11:50:15 <TrueBrain> now a server does the filtering
11:50:25 <TrueBrain> and you can trust a server in general (or you dont, but it is up to you)
11:50:30 <TrueBrain> otherwise you have to validate every client that connects
11:50:31 <Elukka> i don't know how validation is handled in cleint/client games, just that it works :D
11:50:41 <TrueBrain> if I say: I move to tile B
11:50:43 <TrueBrain> and you say the same
11:50:58 <Elukka> hmm. going back to where we started, why would multicore be a problem for openttd's server/client architecture?
11:51:02 <TrueBrain> there are collision protocols for that, sure, but ugh
11:51:17 <TrueBrain> Elukka: your server has 8 cores
11:51:24 <TrueBrain> good luck joining a game with 5000 trains
11:51:46 <peter1138> lies, my laptop has 4 cores
11:51:54 <TrueBrain> I am not talking about yours per
11:51:56 <TrueBrain> I am not talking about yours peter1138
11:51:58 <norbert79> Mine has only 1 :( but it's shiny!
11:51:59 <TrueBrain> I talked about Elukka's :P
11:52:14 <Markk> My phone has a dualcore CPU.
11:52:26 <Elukka> my phone only has one 800 mhz core :(
11:52:26 <TrueBrain> Markk: it even has a few more CPUs in there :P
11:52:37 <TrueBrain> Elukka: I promise you it has at least 2 more cores :P
11:52:53 <Elukka> well it does have a graphics processing unit
11:53:05 <TrueBrain> it has a core specially to handle mobile traffic
11:53:30 <Elukka> but that 800 mhz cpu is what's relevant if i were to, say, download openttd to my phone
11:53:49 <TrueBrain> to download we can argue about :P
11:53:51 <peter1138> you can't play openttd on a phone
11:54:00 <peter1138> all the screens are way too tiny
11:54:01 <norbert79> If you have x86 support
11:54:05 <Markk> If you really, really want too.
11:54:07 <Elukka> there's an android port
11:54:09 <Markk> peter1138: HDMI out ftw?
11:54:10 <norbert79> well, some has 640x480
11:54:15 <TrueBrain> peter1138: ipad? :P
11:54:16 <peter1138> that's not *on* the phone :)
11:54:20 <Elukka> whether it's practical is another question :P
11:54:21 <TrueBrain> (is it a phone? :P)
11:54:27 <peter1138> norbert79, yes, my old htc exec is 640x480. it's still TOO SMALL
11:54:30 <Markk> norbert79: My old phone has 800*480
11:54:32 <TWerkhoven> openttd will run on my phone, but the phone's too slow
11:54:48 <norbert79> Markk, peter1138: Well since OpenTTD comes with 640x480 in default, it should be enough, right? :)
11:54:48 <peter1138> norbert79, x86 support for what? :S
11:54:58 <peter1138> sure, you can fit the pixels on
11:55:06 <peter1138> but you can't *play* it
11:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: how do you get openttd onto an i* device, if it can't be part of the app store?
11:55:09 <Elukka> i know fancier phones are more expensive
11:55:10 <norbert79> Elukka: So does my old Eee :D
11:55:16 <Elukka> fancier phones have better screens*
11:55:19 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I did not jailbreak my apple hardware
11:55:29 <b_jonas> so what? if you can play ttdpatch on 640x480 then why couldn't you play ottd as well?
11:55:35 <norbert79> peter1138: I used to play on 800x480, worked well, it was just the gfx driver causing an issue
11:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> bäh, three people with dark blue nicks talking at once is evil
11:56:15 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I agree
11:56:17 <Elukka> back when computers used 640x480, your screen was what, 15 inches
11:56:17 <TrueBrain> want me to kick one?
11:56:26 <Elukka> phone screens might be the same resolution but it's like 3-4 inches
11:56:30 <Elukka> much less screen space
11:56:33 <norbert79> Elukka: Aye... Used to mainly play in 320x200/240
11:56:51 <norbert79> Elukka: Sure, but that's where touchscreen comes in
11:56:57 <norbert79> Elukka: and a nice little pointer
11:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i played TT on a 9" laptop screen, was fine :)
11:58:40 <peter1138> openttd on a 3" 640x480 display is *not* playable :p
11:58:51 <Elukka> i dunno how well a pointer would work with capacitive touchscreens
11:58:53 <norbert79> 3''... Well, agree on that :)
11:58:59 <Elukka> i guess they make special ones for them?
12:00:56 <peter1138> (shame the IBM T221s didn't catch on)
12:01:11 <peter1138> 3840x2400 on a 22" montiro
12:01:29 <peter1138> openttd would be rather small there
12:02:02 <norbert79> peter1138: Sure, and I am lost, when looking for 1 train :D
12:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> just enable double zoom... err... wait...
12:02:20 <peter1138> ^ that regular 80x24 xterm is a bit lost :P
12:02:29 <norbert79> peter1138: Crazy... :D
12:02:37 <Elukka> i don't get why 1920x1080 was picked as the gold standard max resolution for everything
12:02:46 <Elukka> anything higher is really expensive specialty products
12:02:47 <TrueBrain> something to do with fullHD? :P
12:02:50 <norbert79> peter1138: Mine is a 6734-LB1... 17col, just fine
12:03:12 <norbert79> Elukka: because some idiot thought using these 'standards' would do the trick...
12:03:28 <norbert79> Elukka: Long live analouge...
12:03:49 <Elukka> digital seems flat out better to me though :P
12:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> man, with two sleeping cats around, how can one not fall asleep?!?
12:03:58 <Elukka> too bad everything here is still standard definition
12:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> i don't get why 1920x1080 was picked as the gold standard max resolution for everything <-- it was a way for the screen industry to get out of moore's law
12:06:41 <Elukka> digital HDTVs, yet everything is transmitted at SD...
12:07:54 <peter1138> cos it's non-square :D
12:08:13 <Elukka> i just wish the resolution wasn't 20 years in the past
12:08:15 <TrueBrain> at least you know your history ;)
12:08:32 <TrueBrain> drawing a circle back then was challlenging
12:08:36 <peter1138> i remember thinking that games couldn't possibly run at 640x480
12:08:41 <peter1138> cos the interface wasn't fast enough!
12:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what's non-square about 16:10 with 1680x1050?
12:08:58 <peter1138> (16 bit ISA was quite limiting)
12:09:18 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, nothing
12:09:20 <norbert79> Hmm, my good old AWE 64 ISA in my old 486...
12:09:26 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, 320x200, on the other hand...
12:09:31 <norbert79> Maybe I shall again hook up the oldie again
12:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> how did my isa card then handle 1024x768?
12:10:07 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Slow... S3 (generic) couldn't barely refresh in Duke 3D. Where S3 Savage was quite ok
12:10:16 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, full screen moving image? sure...
12:10:40 <Eddi|zuHause> theoretically it also supported 1280x1024, but my screen couldn't handle that
12:11:06 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: My screen was a 14'' CRT... It could only handle 640x480 ok. 800x600 was running only on 50 hz
12:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that is one seriously weird resolution
12:11:09 <peter1138> 16bit ISA being limited to ~ 16MB/s
12:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> why not 1280x960, like any sane 4:3 display would use?
12:11:48 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: because 5:4 is more comfortable
12:12:18 <peter1138> 360x240 and the like
12:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: and that is why we have 16:9 nowadays?
12:12:28 <peter1138> 360x400 if it was a really odd game
12:12:39 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: And that is why I still have a 5:4 LCD :)
12:12:44 <peter1138> we have 16:9 now because someone decided that widescreen was better
12:13:01 <norbert79> Aye, movies came with widescreen, because thats more "realistic"
12:13:09 <norbert79> so people started using desktops on that resolution
12:13:15 <norbert79> and some bloke started calling it HD...
12:13:21 <peter1138> i don't actually mind widescreen
12:13:28 <peter1138> but the stupid 1080 height :S
12:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i find widescreen way more comfortable
12:13:49 <peter1138> there are some higher resolutions, but only on massive screens
12:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know how i ever lived without
12:13:55 <norbert79> Well, if I would own a 16:9, I would rather use it on 9:16, since I am reading more, than watching movies.
12:14:19 <peter1138> my 16:10 can be rotated
12:14:27 <peter1138> but the pixel alignment feels wrong
12:14:37 <norbert79> peter1138: Lucky for you, the only good thing on that, since it 'emultes' newspaper
12:14:54 <peter1138> hmm, £1000 for a T221
12:16:09 <norbert79> Besides, I think 16:9 for coding is the worst resolution ever, unless 9:16
12:18:28 <norbert79> I wonder how playable OpenTTD would be on 9:16 or 10:16
12:19:21 <Markk> I have two 1920*1080 (16:9) screens besides eachother.
12:19:46 <Markk> (That I play OpenTTD on that is)
12:19:50 <norbert79> That would be way too much space for me
12:20:09 <SpComb> 10:16 is enough to loose a window somewhere
12:20:10 <norbert79> I can't even handle two virtual screens on Linux... it's just too much.
12:20:15 <SpComb> the vertical distance is more than one's used to
12:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> two 16:9 screens on top of each other?
12:22:22 <Eddi|zuHause> my graphics card can only handle one digital output
12:22:35 <Elukka> widescreen is nicer just because of the ways our eyes are arranged on our heads
12:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> DVI+VGA or HDNI+VGA
12:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes it problematic for dual screen
12:23:59 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: widescreen portrait
12:24:03 <norbert79> Two 16:9 each side is just useful if some plays a simulator game, like plane simulator or car/truck simulation
12:24:13 <norbert79> otherwise it's just useless
12:24:21 <Markk> Should be three screen.
12:24:37 <Markk> But my workstation can't handle three screens. :/
12:24:51 <b_jonas> norbert79: I thought it was useful for architects and other engineers who would otherwise draw designs on very large tables
12:25:17 <norbert79> b_jonas: never done CAD work, yet in the past they could also manage without widescreen, didn't they? ;-))
12:25:24 <norbert79> b_jonas: Anyway, probably
12:26:02 <planetmaker> I guess they managed with double screen ;-)
12:26:22 <b_jonas> norbert79: I don't know, I'm not an engineer
12:26:56 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, if we think about it, mainframes are to be handled with two montiors at start: primary console, and regular secondary login console :)
12:26:59 <b_jonas> basicaly I use a 16:10 screen because if you want a large TFT the only ones you can buy are 10:16 or 9:16 ratio
12:27:13 <norbert79> planetmaker: So from this perspective, it's in use sonce the 1960's :)
12:27:14 <planetmaker> norbert79: but they're not made for CAD
12:27:32 <planetmaker> For CAD you had something like SGI Onyx or so. And they came with 2x 24" already in 1998
12:27:53 <norbert79> planetmaker: No, they weren't. Yes, probably, pity SGI never managed to survive
12:28:12 <planetmaker> was a cool machine ;-)
12:28:23 <b_jonas> I thought they still survive as a software manufacturer, right?
12:28:27 <planetmaker> And I wondered why the same code I wrote on that produced oom on my PC at home :-P
12:28:32 <norbert79> back in the 90's, they were way overhead of regular PC's
12:28:57 <norbert79> planetmaker: Thanks to SGI we have OpenGL too
12:28:59 <planetmaker> and then I did the memory math :-)
12:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you quickly lose track of such stuff :p
12:30:31 <norbert79> Markk: When does the nharwal bacon?
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12:32:25 <norbert79> Markk: Don't you get lost within so much space? I see, that you mainly use the left side only.
12:33:10 <Markk> So I have OMT (our ticket system) and Excel at the left screen and IRC, Firefox etc. on the right screen.
12:33:19 <Markk> An ye, outlook at the left screen as well.
12:33:30 <Markk> But I would really need another screen.
12:33:43 <b_jonas> work on one screen, play on another screen?
12:33:54 <Markk> I played on both screens before. :)
12:34:28 <b_jonas> ah, so you want work on one screen, play on two screens, and the screen with work facing to the door so it's the only one the boss can see?
12:34:54 <Markk> When i play I play on both screens.
12:35:01 <Markk> I can't always play like.
12:35:18 <Markk> I did that during the summer when we had 2 tickets a day like.
12:36:08 <b_jonas> you know, I can believe you
12:36:16 <b_jonas> because when I first bought this large screen, I couldn't use it
12:36:25 <b_jonas> I didn't understand what I could do with so much an area
12:36:36 <b_jonas> now I know and I have difficulty working on smaller screens
12:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like buying a new HD and thinking "how could i ever fill this with data?"
12:37:18 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: exactly
12:37:21 <Markk> The normal screens that you get when you start here is one 22" 1680*1050 (16:10) screen.
12:37:23 <b_jonas> and now I want a bigger hard disk
12:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember this thinking when i got a new 420MB(!) disk to expand the 80MB i already had
12:38:08 <Markk> So I talked to my boss (whom is my teamleaders boss as well) who accepted my request for two 22" 1920*1080 screens.
12:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> now i have like 5TB filled
12:38:35 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: 420 MB... Conner disk, right?
12:38:37 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: Haha, ye, same here when I bought a 250GB hard drive back in 2005.
12:38:44 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Had the same, if yes
12:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: i'm fairly sure it was a Western Digital
12:39:12 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: how much of that 5 TB is movies?
12:39:32 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I see, well WD was much better quality back then. Mine was CONNER
12:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: about 90%. some of it uncut tv recordings
12:40:57 <norbert79> I have even trouble organizing my 100 GB of own stuff. Almost 60 Gb are games, 12 GB of Music, and rest books and army material :)
12:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have 1TB movie archive, 2.5TB series archive, and 1TB unsorted recordings
12:41:04 <norbert79> rest is all different
12:41:18 <Eddi|zuHause> games get pretty large as well nowadays
12:41:42 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Indeed.
12:42:12 <norbert79> yet for some I don't understand the need of 10-15 GB?
12:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't even have any HD stuff yet
12:42:19 <norbert79> Especially for single player games... Why?
12:42:49 <norbert79> Heh... Not impressed if doesn't improve gameplay.
12:43:11 <norbert79> like spotting a sniper rifle, because the sun reflected from the optic
12:44:06 <norbert79> But even physics are weird in recent games too. The best physics used was by Carmageddon 2
12:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it's crazy how fast Civ V suddenly gets, when you switch to the strategic map :p
12:45:44 <norbert79> The best graphic/story/physics balanced game I have played was Max Payne 1 and 2...
12:46:07 <norbert79> While 1 had no real physics, the mood and the story gave that plus
12:46:17 <norbert79> despite single only
12:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody develops good story/gameplay anymore. everything is fancy graphics.
12:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> look at how many balance tweaks Civ V got over the past year
12:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like they never playtested it before...
12:48:03 <norbert79> Aye, that's why we are all fans of OpenTTD. But regarding simulations, there is also less to offer. Atragon has some good ones, yet I love SCS's German Truck Simulator
12:50:10 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: What about Amnesia, The dark Descent ;-) ?
12:50:16 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Ever tried it? :D
12:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what genre that even is
12:50:41 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Try it ;-)
12:51:12 <norbert79> Horror, but from the less bloody type :)
12:51:40 <norbert79> it goes under your skin
12:51:49 <norbert79> and your only task is to survive
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13:21:58 <norbert79> How are you today Belugas ?
13:26:46 <Belugas> still sick, still busy, still alive ;)
13:29:16 <norbert79> Minor headache, too short sleep during night
13:38:00 <Belugas> that's the season , i guess :)
13:55:28 <Belugas> #She comes out like a white shadow
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14:44:45 <norbert79> Going 127.0.0.1... Finally.. Later everyone!
14:44:49 *** norbert79 has left #openttd
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14:48:52 <Matthias> Hello, is it possible to delet your uploaded files on bananas?
14:49:37 <Terkhen> why do you want to delete them?
14:50:24 <Matthias> I can't rename it so i have to delet it and upload it with another name again...
14:51:35 <Terkhen> I would upload the file with the new name instead of updating the old one; if the old file were deleted it wouldn't be possible to find it for loading old savegames and so on
14:52:24 <Matthias> but they have the same grf_id and the same content...
14:52:38 <Terkhen> sorry, I don't know what would happen in that case
14:52:56 <Terkhen> maybe a new name is a change big enough to warrant a new grfid
14:53:33 <TrueBrain> it is; no 1 grfid should have 2 names
14:53:39 <TrueBrain> kinda defeats the purpose of everything :)
14:54:29 <TrueBrain> in fact, no 2 uploads should have the same grfid
14:54:31 <planetmaker> what kind of name change, Matthias?
14:54:35 <Matthias> then the old "ghost"-set will exist forever :D
14:55:15 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: Renaming a NewGRF should usually not matter much, should it?
14:55:18 <Matthias> Do you know TARS and DACH?
14:55:20 <Matthias> And do you know "Yoshi"? (That's me!)
14:55:33 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: means clients download 2 grfs with the same ID
14:55:43 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: same grf, re-named is the issue
14:56:02 <planetmaker> i.e. version 1.0 "Blue trains only". version 1.1 "Blue and red train set"
14:56:29 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: that also gets a new grfID, does it not?
14:56:53 <planetmaker> It's 100% compatible just a few more trains?
14:56:57 <planetmaker> Never got a new grfID
14:57:06 <Matthias> The grf was named TARS (Total Alpine Replacement Set) but now its DACH (D-CH-A tripoint set)!
14:57:07 <TrueBrain> hmm, if it just extends it is possible
14:57:18 <planetmaker> Nowadays it shouldn't. We have NewGRF version for that via action14
14:57:19 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: it only increases confusion :)
14:57:41 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: that's why renaming a set as shown in online content should be feasible
14:57:50 <planetmaker> a set might grow. Or have typo
14:57:53 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: that is exactly why it should not :)
14:58:14 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: wrong ;-)
14:58:15 <TrueBrain> the idea of the whole BaNaNaS is: once uploaded, always uploaded. With that name, that version, that GRFID
14:58:26 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: it's not about changing an existing _file
14:58:32 <planetmaker> it's about what is displayed
14:58:41 <planetmaker> when browsing online content
14:58:44 <TrueBrain> so make it a new grf, the system doesnt care :)
14:58:59 <planetmaker> it does. the grfID would need changing
14:59:07 <planetmaker> I'm afraid you miss the issue at hand
14:59:13 <TrueBrain> and I think you miss the issue :)
14:59:25 <TrueBrain> client A downloads grf B with ID C
14:59:29 <TrueBrain> you rename it, and B becomes D
14:59:32 <TrueBrain> client A downloads grf D with ID C
14:59:38 <TrueBrain> so now he has 2 grf files with the same ID
14:59:41 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: _existing_ content is NOT my issue
14:59:55 <TrueBrain> for a new upload, you can give a new name
15:00:01 <planetmaker> But when I want to update a set, the name might change.
15:00:05 <planetmaker> And that exactly I CANNOT
15:00:08 <TrueBrain> renaming by definition is always about existing information :)
15:00:11 <planetmaker> I can only change the name in the grf
15:00:15 <planetmaker> but not what bananas tells us
15:00:28 <Rubidium> planetmaker: as far as I am aware you get the option to "change" the name when uploading a new version
15:00:39 <planetmaker> i.e. OpenGFX+Airports is still called airportsplus
15:00:42 <planetmaker> And a normal user can't change that
15:00:59 <planetmaker> Same with the some other set which got the version in the name. No way to rectify that
15:01:04 <Rubidium> once it's uploaded, then it shouldn't change name anymore as it is the filename as well
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15:01:06 <TrueBrain> existing uploads should never be changed; not even by admins
15:01:25 <Rubidium> planetmaker: then that should be fixed I'd say
15:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Matthias: what you should do is disable downloading of the old grf for all versions, and then upload the new version with new name.
15:02:33 <Rubidium> though I seem to remember more should be fixed some day
15:02:39 <V453000> pm: where can I get a firs nightly with the changed supplying mechanism? 2604 from bundles/firs seems not to include that
15:02:59 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: whch is completely by design (documents)
15:03:03 <planetmaker> it's not finished written yet
15:03:26 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: I'm afraid that's bad.
15:03:34 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I see no reason why the name can't be changed for a new version
15:03:58 <TrueBrain> when BaNaNaS was designed, that was one of the requirements in fact :)
15:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: requirements can change
15:04:21 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that for sure :)
15:04:29 <Rubidium> ghehe... where's that requirements document?
15:04:36 <TrueBrain> the reasoning is simple: a grfID should be identiable by its name
15:04:49 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you really wan tme to look that up? :P it was written down for a change :)
15:04:53 <planetmaker> grfID should suffice
15:04:59 <TrueBrain> as there was some debate about some elements
15:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> why would that be necessary?
15:05:21 <Rubidium> but I guess it's just ambiguously worded designs
15:05:23 <TrueBrain> because back then there was quiet a nice naming schema some people had :P
15:05:53 <TrueBrain> basically it has to do with uniqueness
15:06:08 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: but this way I never could rectify a typo, as if I wrote "Sweaty Rails" by accident as opposed to "Swedish Rails"
15:06:12 <TrueBrain> atm BaNaNaS has this approach: a grfID can only exist once in the database for any name+version
15:06:15 <planetmaker> and only noticed after uploading the first version
15:06:42 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: the solution is a new grfID and a new upload; that has been from start (and always has been used in the beginning. I can't speak from after that, as I didnt track that :P)
15:06:45 <planetmaker> it would be sweaty rails for all eternity - or I'd have to break savegame compatibility for no good reason
15:07:24 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: One single NewGRF never changed grfID. Unless it was totally incompatible to the previous versions
15:07:25 <Rubidium> I'd reckon the requirement is worded like: "after uploading the name can't be changed"
15:07:26 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: btw, bold assumptions on your part ;)
15:07:59 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: no, it is worded like: a name should be bind to a grfID, unique and global
15:08:14 <TrueBrain> (in less fancy words, but I hav eot look it up to give you an exact quote :P)
15:08:30 <TrueBrain> anyway, it is over very low relevance how things were 5 years ago
15:08:36 <TrueBrain> in fact, of 0 relevance :)
15:08:54 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: how about adding a(n additional) name for each version?
15:08:54 <TrueBrain> all I can tel you: it is by design, as we wanted to force a single name for a grf over time
15:08:57 <planetmaker> ok, can we just agree that the design and requirement at that point is not ideal (anymore) and should be revised there?
15:09:18 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: many things within BaNaNaS have to be revised
15:09:25 <planetmaker> grdID unique - of course. But there are good reasons the name bound to it could change
15:09:27 <TrueBrain> for example, if a version action exist, it should be used ;)
15:09:45 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: the idea was to avoid people changing the name every upload, for every version
15:09:45 <planetmaker> that's advanced class ;-)
15:09:53 <planetmaker> I understand that
15:09:59 <TrueBrain> that was the idea behind it, and that is what isimplemented. All I can say about it :)
15:10:07 <TrueBrain> changing it .. well .. we have been over that many times before :)
15:10:08 <planetmaker> but the reverse conclusion "don't ever allow" is not good either
15:10:24 <TrueBrain> it is a result of such constraint :) I am sure nobody considered it back then
15:10:28 <planetmaker> so, for now: could we change it on a single-intervention basis?
15:10:37 <planetmaker> for where it really is needed?
15:11:01 <planetmaker> I mean just editing the name in the DB or so :-)
15:11:11 <TrueBrain> you cannot (and never should want to) rename an existing entry
15:11:13 <TrueBrain> so that is not possible
15:11:17 <planetmaker> I didn't dare to dig there too deep in fear of breaking something
15:11:46 <TrueBrain> your only options are to allow editing of th ename field during uploading, but I am afraid there are a few hard constraints on it during upload
15:11:58 <TrueBrain> (I believe it does a query on the name to fetch relative parents)
15:12:03 <planetmaker> hm, I feared that answer
15:12:14 <planetmaker> it should query grfID
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15:12:21 <TrueBrain> so, as with any software, to change a constraints of a design document is hard, to say the least
15:12:59 <TrueBrain> so we come back to the same old story: write a freaking replacement :)
15:13:24 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS was both written in a hurry as written with little knowledge of the domain (as it was new and well, it was said to never kick off)
15:13:43 <TrueBrain> nowedays I wonder if a user downloads grfs manually :P
15:13:49 <TrueBrain> that would be a nice survey ... :)
15:14:10 <planetmaker> Matthias: so the short answer is: no, it's not possible. For anyone
15:14:43 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: btw, if such change would be made, it has to be considered carefully to dont get a renegade of names
15:14:50 <TrueBrain> something like moderator approval or something
15:15:04 <Matthias> so i have to leave the old ones there and make an new upload with a new grfid?
15:15:04 <planetmaker> we don't have that now either, do we?
15:15:23 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: no; that is wha tI am saying, you would want that :)
15:15:26 <planetmaker> Matthias: or keep the name
15:15:37 <TrueBrain> the abuse of the version field is already laughable at best
15:16:12 <planetmaker> hm... I guess some versions are interesting, but well?
15:16:43 <TrueBrain> "zeta for bananas" <- version string :D
15:17:14 <dihedral> PreAlpha 3.1 <- i like this one too
15:17:34 <planetmaker> People have fun(k/n)y version schemes
15:17:47 <Matthias> and you can't delete content?
15:18:18 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: the only 'sane' solution I see is to force the version action, and make sure grfid+version is always unique
15:18:32 <TrueBrain> then you can lose the constraint on the name much easier
15:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "renaming" of GRFs without GRF-ID change has happened even before BaNaNaS was invented
15:19:14 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yes it has :)
15:19:29 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I cleaned up my dev-space, I sure hope not :P
15:19:32 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: the version action should be part of any sane newgrf, yes
15:19:42 <TrueBrain> a 404 page, how nice :)
15:19:55 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the name changed from "DBSet" (version <= 0.5) to "DBSetXL" (version > 0.5)
15:20:15 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: is that the worst you can do? :D
15:20:26 <dihedral> ha! no wonder i used to look for the DBSet for ages
15:21:50 <TrueBrain> Matthias: no, you cannot delete content from BaNaNaS.
15:22:06 <TrueBrain> you can, however, make it non-public, as in: it wont show in the content lists
15:22:15 <TrueBrain> it will always be fetchable from the storage
15:22:21 <Matthias> and the admin not, too?
15:22:23 <Matthias> (who is the "admin"?)
15:22:35 <planetmaker> Matthias: you talked to the creator of bananans ;-)
15:22:51 <TrueBrain> any developer can strictly seen do it, but they can also just relay such information just fine :)
15:23:12 <TrueBrain> but by policy we never delete stuff
15:23:20 <TrueBrain> (unless there is a violation of some kind)
15:23:28 <TrueBrain> people uploading copyrighted shit ;)
15:23:41 <TrueBrain> well, even these are not deleted, but made hidden, and marked as: BAD BAD BAD GRF :P
15:23:42 <planetmaker> yeah. Making it unavailable would suffice
15:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Matthias: imagine someone who created a game with your uploaded version, now you change the name (and thus the md5sum), now people cannot continue their game, if you delete the grf
15:24:24 <TrueBrain> nicely worded Eddi|zuHause
15:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> note that all this could have been prevented if the name of the grf hadn't been decided 5 minutes before the release :)
15:26:46 <TrueBrain> a new name has to give a mismatch in md5 in any case, so :P
15:26:46 <planetmaker> Matthias: what is now the name on bananas? TARS?
15:26:50 <TrueBrain> yuo need to change something silly :D
15:26:52 <planetmaker> Just keep it. It's good enough
15:27:30 <Matthias> <planetmaker>TARS, yes...
15:27:50 <Matthias> and as you know of tt-ms now it's DACh
15:28:00 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: btw, better idea for renmaing might be aliasing, and only having one of the two public. Just as idea ;)
15:28:01 <planetmaker> It's ambitious - so what :-) See it as options :-)
15:28:21 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: that would work, too. But just two? ;-)
15:28:49 * TrueBrain hugs planetmaker back; you are such a cuty :P
15:29:37 <Matthias> ok... i 'll try something... bye
15:30:31 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: curious, is the version action a number or a string?
15:31:05 <planetmaker> well. OpenTTD will (by default) only display the highest one
15:31:09 <planetmaker> you could use it erratically
15:31:22 <TrueBrain> yeah, but so OpenTTD 'forces' ascending versioning
15:31:37 <TrueBrain> it was always one of those things that annoyed me :)
15:31:42 <planetmaker> yup. And there's a 'min compatible version', too. Same properties
15:31:56 <planetmaker> Thus bananans could (and probably should) then take care of that, too
15:32:07 <planetmaker> and offer several versions, if needed ;-)
15:32:19 <planetmaker> bnananananananananananaaassss
15:32:27 <TrueBrain> worst name ever, I still love it :)
15:32:38 <planetmaker> it's a good one :-)
15:32:46 <planetmaker> every monkey grabs a banana
15:33:45 <TrueBrain> next step for BaNaNaS is to name the files based on their grfid+version
15:33:48 <TrueBrain> solves all problems :D
15:34:08 <TrueBrain> (then everything else is meta-data and can be freely changed when-ever)
15:34:35 <planetmaker> md5sum is more unique :-)
15:35:32 <TrueBrain> I can proof you wrong there, but for the common sense, yeah, lets use that :D
15:35:48 <TrueBrain> it seriously would be better, system-wise. Just horrible for any human trying to look at those directories :)
15:36:10 <planetmaker> yes, quite. Thus one could combine it
15:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> would be very evil if someone generated a grf with same md5sum :p
15:36:43 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yup; it would :)
15:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i should try that in CETS :)
15:37:27 <TrueBrain> its funny, the database is prepared for multi-author; I wonder where that went wrong .. I believe in the frontend ..
15:38:10 <planetmaker> lack of motivation? ;-)
15:38:20 <TrueBrain> I remember there was an issue; I just cant remember what
15:38:30 <planetmaker> like "first let's test run this" - and provisional things last an eternity. We all know
15:38:54 <TrueBrain> there is also a karma system in the database
15:39:04 <TrueBrain> which was meant to allow self-moderation within BaNaNaS
15:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like an awfully wrong way to do things
15:39:38 <TrueBrain> back then it was 'hot'
15:42:22 <TrueBrain> out of the 4.2k old users, only 0.5k ever merged their account; the rest are still dangling :P
15:44:05 <planetmaker> huch? That low quota?
15:44:16 <TrueBrain> I was expecting a higher number myself
15:44:56 <TrueBrain> we now have 5k users in the new setup
15:45:19 <TrueBrain> too bad we store no data to track users, what they do and how often they return ..
15:45:25 <TrueBrain> darn is, why do we throw away logs! :P
15:45:31 <planetmaker> :-) Ok that's more than before. Maybe there's a certain number which just created a new acount
15:45:46 <TrueBrain> many did, as they couldnt' remember their passwords :P
15:46:40 <TrueBrain> anyway, all this talk about BaNaNaS, why is nobody stepping up to make a new piece of software for it?
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16:15:13 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: as manythings, it's already advanced class ;-)
16:15:36 <planetmaker> DB 310 and webdesign 301 or so
16:17:07 <Elukka> the scale should be right
16:17:19 <Elukka> it's about 2000 times the radius of the sun
16:20:26 <appe> you see the rails to the right?
16:20:52 <appe> i want the trains to go to the left, then right, then left, and so on.
16:21:07 <appe> and i cant really get the signals to work properly. got tip?
16:22:06 <planetmaker> appe: search the coop wiki for logic network
16:24:41 <KenjiE20> oddly, I don't think we have any image examples, they're in saved games =/
16:25:07 <planetmaker> that'd be unfortunate then. In the blog maybe?
16:26:13 <V453000> you want flipflop I suppose
16:26:30 <KenjiE20> that would be the obvious one
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16:29:58 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: for sure we should have people who have had that class ...
16:31:56 <KenjiE20> but did they also pass Advanced Effort 101? :p
16:32:42 <TrueBrain> guess I should spend some time moving django to his new place ... I think he will like that a lot
16:39:12 <planetmaker> Rubidium: could you please push OpenGFX to the mirrors?
16:39:36 <TrueBrain> add a redstone torch next to the piston; should work
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16:57:13 <glx> TrueBrain: sticky or not ?
16:57:26 <TrueBrain> I am out of slimes, so ..
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17:16:56 <LordAro> anyone else think that monoid has potential as a future developer?
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17:18:20 <LordAro> what perfect timing :)
17:18:29 <LordAro> (i logged in 4 mins ago)
17:19:38 <LordAro> you see monoid's comments on readme patch?
17:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: you don't get to be brightest star on the night sky for no reason...
17:20:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: although it's probably more difficult to see the further north you are
17:21:06 <LordAro> Alberth: i implemented his suggestions, then i got planetmaker's bug :)
17:21:45 <Alberth> give me a minute to read :)
17:22:16 <planetmaker> I haven't really read the patch or what may cause it. But it's persistent, the last lines are always truncated. And it seems to me they're just not displayed.
17:22:31 <planetmaker> i.e. the scrolling is stopped to early in a false assumption on the length
17:22:47 <planetmaker> of the _displayed_ pixel heigth. I might be totally wrong, though
17:23:02 <planetmaker> but the lowest line just shows the upper two pixels of a text line
17:23:19 <LordAro> yeah, i changed the scrollbar length 'setting' to monoid's suggestion, and got your bug. never saw it before though
17:23:36 <LordAro> (while on standard font, original_winodws gfx)
17:24:28 <planetmaker> LordAro: I got that bug prior to him commenting
17:25:04 <LordAro> yeah, which made me think that it could potentially be an os problem
17:25:55 <planetmaker> all this drawing-stuff is abstracted away from any OS call
17:26:17 <LordAro> planetmaker: yeah, but i wasn't seeing the problem, so i was busy overthiinking things
17:27:45 <Alberth> I'd be surprised if osx and linux are different, yet every other window works
17:28:27 <LordAro> well, unless there's someproblem to do with ogfx/original_windows, i don't know
17:29:06 <Alberth> did you try with the originally posted version too (assuming that version was used by pm)
17:29:39 <planetmaker> I think I have the original one
17:30:12 <LordAro> i hadn't changed anyting since i uploaded it
17:30:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22949 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt: -Fix [FS#4784]: Locale categories LC_NUMERIC and LC_MONETARY of cy_GB are identical to en_GB.
17:32:40 <Alberth> bleh, it rebuilds everything
17:33:12 <planetmaker> not quite 100%... 70% or so
17:33:40 <LordAro> but then, so does every 'update from web translator'
17:34:59 * LordAro remembers to upload new patch to fs
17:35:25 <Rubidium> what does an update from WT?
17:35:50 <LordAro> 'rebuilds everything'
17:37:07 <Rubidium> the only language that would trigger lots of rebuilding is english.txt, which isn't managed by the WT
17:37:16 <LordAro> rebuilds as in i have to recompile completely
17:37:29 <Rubidium> what the WT commits just requires rebuilding the language files and it's done
17:38:13 <Rubidium> even then, only changes to english.txt that change the string names (add/remove/modify) trigger rebuilding (of everything that includes tables/strings.h)
17:38:22 <Rubidium> so it doesn't even trigger a full rebuild at all
17:38:34 <Rubidium> many files are very rarely recompiled
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22950 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt russian.txt welsh.txt):
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 119 changes by Parastais
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 19 changes by akasoft, perk11
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 2 changes by kazzie
17:50:06 <Alberth> LordAro: confirmed the bug
17:51:47 <Alberth> I can mostly read readme files :p
17:52:44 <Alberth> is the window supposed to be a whole number of lines exactly?
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17:56:33 * LordAro goes back to linux pc
17:56:50 <LordAro> thanks for that, although i sort of was aware of it :)
17:57:08 *** LordAro is now known as Aro|afk
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18:16:42 <peter1138> hmm, netbook + linux not so good
18:16:57 <peter1138> temp sensor thinks it's 26.8°C all the time
18:17:03 <peter1138> hence is doesn't power on the fan
18:17:13 <peter1138> hence it'll probably cook itself before long :S
18:17:20 <TWerkhoven> only sensor available?
18:17:49 <peter1138> normally these things are automatically controlled by the bios anyway :S
18:18:20 <peter1138> "Aspire One by default commonly doesn't manage Fan speed correctly, resulting in a very noisy AA0. Solution:
18:18:31 <peter1138> except it's not on at all!
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18:18:39 <TWerkhoven> at least its quiet
18:23:34 <Rubidium> peter1138: it's better than a fan/temp combination that speed up the lower the temperature gets (and subsequently slow down when it gets hotter)
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18:46:37 <peter1138> hmm, coretemp says 40°C
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18:50:41 <frosch123> teatemp says about 100°C
18:52:31 <frosch123> ok, it was still water when measuring :)
18:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it meant 100°F
18:53:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: why should one use a scale with only one useful reference point?
18:53:47 <frosch123> you need at least two reference points for a linear scale
18:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that, or the first derivate at the reference point
18:54:49 <frosch123> it does not matter in which point you take the derivate :p
18:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you'd have a second reference point -> contradiction
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19:14:56 <peter1138> hmm, openttd on FF gets it to 60°C
19:15:19 <peter1138> think the fan is on but very slow
19:15:40 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
19:19:36 <peter1138> "Excitement! Run for your life" is nirvana
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20:07:23 <Hinrik> I have an airport whose catchment area includes houses from towns A and B. According to the station name, the airport is in town. Will an advertising campaign in town B have any effect on the amount of cargo I get at the airport?
20:09:01 <TWerkhoven[l]> as long as the town-B houses within the catchment area produce at least a full (8/8) passenger, i'd think so
20:14:30 <Rubidium> advertising campaigns only have effect with X tiles from the city center
20:14:43 <Rubidium> (X can be found in the wiki)
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20:28:34 <Hirundo> There is no such thing as full (8/8) or partial production, only acceptance is counted as n/8
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21:58:00 <Elukka> perhaps a long shot, but nobody would happen to have compiled a recent cargodist windows binary, would they?
21:58:24 <Elukka> i have openttd withdrawal symptoms
22:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you did it once, the next time is really trivial
22:04:19 <Elukka> it's probably easier if you have any programming experience at all
22:20:11 <SpComb> it's fine if it all goes well
22:20:17 <SpComb> but if you have to debug something..
22:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> which should not be necessary if you stick to applying the patch to the same revision it was written for
22:26:08 <Elukka> well, it seems like a bit more effort to go through than i'm willing to essentially install a mod to a game
22:58:42 <__ln__> "In Thüringen sind zwei Güterzüge zusammengeprallt - dabei soll mindestens ein mit Benzin gefüllter Kesselwagen explodiert sein."
23:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you get real time news about train accidents or something?
23:00:52 *** z-MaTRiX has joined #openttd
23:01:44 <__ln__> ummm.. sort of, from #elsewhere where someone apparently monitors news sources
23:04:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i used to travel on that route quite frequently a few years ago
23:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a major passenger route, but pretty high cargo route
23:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there are two major east-west routes in thüringen, the so called "Thüringer Bahn" from Halle/Leipzig via Weimar, Erfurt, Eisenach to Bebra (further to Fulda and Frankfurt (M)) connecting most of the major cities is mostly used for passenger traffic
23:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and the "Halle-Kasseler Eisenbahn", which connects fewer large cities is mostly free for freight traffic
23:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the accident happened on the latter
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