IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-20
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04:27:01 <Terkhen> good morning
04:36:54 <Elukka> morning
04:39:18 <Terkhen> hi Elukka
04:47:04 <pjpe> apparently my university ranks 10th in the world for computer science
04:47:10 <pjpe> beating out yale, princeton, cornell and mcgill
04:47:12 <pjpe> among others
04:47:13 <pjpe> B]
04:51:44 <Elukka>
04:51:50 <Elukka> those goods cars are so quaint
04:53:34 <Rubidium> pjpe: I wonder the degree of the person who made that list; that person can't even write "Netherlands" correctly
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04:56:38 <pjpe> you don't even know what list i'm talking about!!
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04:58:03 <Rubidium> I have my suspicions ;)
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06:45:03 <Diablo-D3> you know
06:45:37 <pjpe> yes i do
06:45:49 <Diablo-D3> I wonder why there isnt an order to tell a train to leave the station when another one arrives
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07:03:28 <norbert79> Morning
07:05:00 <Terkhen> hi norbert79
07:05:18 <norbert79> Morning Terkhen
07:09:14 <planetmaker> moin
07:09:23 <dihedral> moin pm
07:11:31 <norbert79> moin guys :)
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07:23:30 <Terkhen> good morning planetmaker and dihedral
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07:44:44 <Jabol> Hello.
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08:09:19 <plantain> How can I speed up time on my server?
08:09:55 <Diablo-D3> do the time warp again.
08:10:07 <plantain> ...
08:13:34 <Terkhen> plantain: do you mean making years shorter or improving performance?
08:13:57 <plantain> shorter years
08:14:10 <Terkhen> there is no way to do that AFAIK
08:14:13 <plantain> I want games to take a few hours tops
08:14:25 <Terkhen> the daylength patches I know can only make years larger
08:14:41 <Terkhen> you might want to start them in a later date then
08:15:12 <pjpe> sounds like time for somebody to make a patch
08:15:14 <pjpe> and that somebody is
08:15:16 <pjpe> not me called it
08:16:05 <Ammler> plantain: just define start year later and end year earlier
08:16:33 <Ammler> 10 years are around 2 hours
08:18:31 <plantain> so why is it possible in single player but not multiplayer?
08:18:45 <Ammler> oh, you mean fast forward?
08:18:56 <peter1138> ending a sentence with "with". bad?
08:20:06 <Terkhen> plantain: because then the slower clients would not be able to keep up with the server and would get disconnected
08:20:21 <plantain> yes AMmler
08:22:12 <pjpe> you MIGHT be able to make a newgrf that
08:22:15 <pjpe> makes trains run faster
08:22:20 <pjpe> make industries output more
08:22:24 <pjpe> make everything cost less
08:22:25 <pjpe> and so on
08:22:32 <pjpe> to simulate the effects of time going by faster
08:22:40 <Terkhen> note that if the savegame has grown complex enough and some of the clients have an old computer this disconnection issue might happen even without fast forward :P
08:23:38 <pjpe> and the person who writes that newgrf is
08:23:39 <pjpe> not me
08:24:49 <norbert79> Then take a ticket, and stay in line... :)
08:25:25 <norbert79> anyway, I already think time is even faster, than it should be... Why making it much faster? It's not a RTS game, it's about building, not playing beehive
08:27:12 <plantain> for LAN events where you are time limited
08:28:05 <Diablo-D3> well this is weird
08:28:12 <Diablo-D3> I cant find opengfx+ landscape in the list
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08:29:52 <norbert79> pjpe's requests were btw not such, which would need a seperate NewGRF, but a bit of tuning on the game's settings
08:30:18 <norbert79> and when done, there is no need fasten up time
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08:33:20 <norbert79> Typo day as I smell...
08:35:33 * dihedral is on a dihet :-P
08:36:30 <norbert79> Well played, sir... :)
08:39:20 <dihedral> :-)
08:40:12 <dihedral> it did make me chuckle ;-)
08:40:48 <norbert79> :)) Damn, this rainy smudgy day brings me down, lucky I have my old Guns and Roses collection with me. How is the weather over there?
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08:49:50 <andythenorth> morning
08:50:01 <Diablo-D3> HAY ANDY
08:50:09 <norbert79> Morning andythesouth
08:50:17 <Diablo-D3> I think I summoned you
08:50:35 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: why cant we have gigantic ship sprites
08:50:51 <andythenorth> because it's not how the game works
08:52:38 <Diablo-D3> but but but giant cargo ships :<
08:54:23 <andythenorth> but but but I want a pony :P
08:54:34 <andythenorth> it's not made that way
08:59:03 <planetmaker> <Diablo-D3> [10:28:12] I cant find opengfx+ landscape in the list <-- you can only find it in the list, if you use a recent enough nightly
08:59:17 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: erk, but its still safe to add manually?
08:59:26 <planetmaker> yes it's safe
08:59:40 <planetmaker> it will gently tell you that you need a recent nightly to use it
09:00:01 <norbert79> yet it will work partially
09:00:12 <norbert79> loved the changes...
09:00:23 <planetmaker> "work partially"?
09:00:29 <norbert79> well, the grass changed
09:00:45 <norbert79> wasn't diving into it that deep
09:00:58 <norbert79> but that was sure some nice eyecandy
09:01:08 <norbert79> Oh, wait, I used regular OpenGFX
09:01:12 <planetmaker> ogfx+landscape has the same grass as the normal OpenGFX - just by default without grid
09:01:26 <Diablo-D3> Im going to try this this time: 2cc, av8, chips, dwe newobjects and stations, egrvts, firs, fish, heqs, isr, lv4, marico, ogfx+ landscape and trees, tbrs
09:01:29 <norbert79> I see, well, still, liked it
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09:01:56 <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, you don't need the ogfx+trees anymore... they're included in OpenGFX
09:02:10 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: all of the trees?
09:02:24 * norbert79 gets his pendrive and moves trees to obsolete
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09:05:23 <Diablo-D3> so, Ive dumped ttrs and nutracks and the snow grfs
09:06:01 <norbert79> planetmaker: So from OpenGFX-0.3.5.tar, OpenGFX_BigGUI-1.tar, OpenGFX_Industries-0.3.4.tar, OpenGFX_Landscape-0.2.2.tar, OpenGFX_Road_Vehicles-0.2.0.tar, OpenGFX_Trains-0.2.5.tar, OpenGFX_Trees-0.2.2.tar (Obsolete) only the trees is obselete, right?
09:06:57 <Diablo-D3> road vehicles kinda sucks
09:07:04 <Diablo-D3> all it does is make additional classes of the same vehicles
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09:18:33 <planetmaker> yes, trees are mostly obsolete. They might make some sense in tropic, I'm not sure about that version, though
09:18:46 <planetmaker> Landscape IIRC has a little bit newer version 0.2.3
09:18:54 <planetmaker> and RV also, 0.3.1
09:19:07 <Diablo-D3> landscape has snow blending and seasonal snow lines
09:19:16 <Diablo-D3> which honestly should be built into openttd
09:19:30 <planetmaker> snow-blending?
09:19:41 <planetmaker> it doesn't do anything fancy there
09:20:44 <Diablo-D3> someone in here said it did
09:20:59 <Diablo-D3> btw, snow blending as in having a half snow tile between grass and snow
09:21:24 <norbert79> planetmaker: Hmm, weird, Bananas didn't offer any download for those two
09:21:24 <Diablo-D3> smooth snow transition does it as a stand alone grf
09:22:51 <peter1138> adding things as default tends to mess up other things
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09:28:31 <Diablo-D3> which set has the most train engines?
09:29:40 <Elukka> possibly 2cc
09:30:49 <Diablo-D3> huh, really?
09:30:52 <Diablo-D3> I wonder what I did wrong then
09:30:59 <Diablo-D3> 2cc didnt have that many engines
09:31:24 <V453000> 2cc set has endless engines, but many of them arent too useful
09:31:33 <Diablo-D3> wtf then
09:31:46 <Diablo-D3> maybe nutracks was fucking it up, Ive removed it but havent started a new game yet
09:35:23 <Elukka> i started a game in 1940 and 2cc had more engines available then than most sets have as a whole
09:35:42 <Diablo-D3> which version of 2cc are you using?
09:36:30 <Elukka> some nightly
09:36:34 <norbert79> Hah, Eye of the Gnome is incapable of handling the PNG file created by grfcodec, because it's too long (11808 pixels), yet Gnome can make a preview of the picture :))
09:36:51 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: erm, last time I noticed eye of gnome has been looooooong since thrown out
09:37:01 <MNIM> norbert79: lack of ram?
09:37:06 <norbert79> MNIM: Doubt...
09:37:11 <Diablo-D3> has eog even been updated to gtk2 yet?
09:37:12 <norbert79> MNIM: Will test it with JPEG.
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09:37:24 <Diablo-D3> and gdkpixbuf is a pile of shit too
09:38:37 <norbert79> MNIM: After resaving it with GIMP it works fine. Must be something with the encoding while running grfcodec...
09:38:49 <norbert79> MNIM: Not a huge issue, I was just wondering.
09:39:00 <Diablo-D3> erm, doesnt grfcodec just use libpng?
09:39:25 <planetmaker> norbert79, both versions should be available from bananas, possibly only with a recent nightly...
09:39:49 <planetmaker>
09:39:52 <norbert79> planetmaker: Yes, already updated my pack, I was wondering why I cannot see it
09:39:58 <norbert79> planetmaker: thank you though :)
09:39:59 <planetmaker> it worked for me :-) ah, ok
09:40:11 <planetmaker> I wonder though whether ogfx+rv has such limit...
09:41:00 <norbert79> It seems grfcodec nightly 828 has some issues with the encoding of the PNG file, or it might be something else, maybe some encodings aren't supported by default within my EOG
09:41:12 <Diablo-D3>
09:41:15 <Diablo-D3> do want!
09:41:24 <Terkhen> OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles uses a nightly feature, but if you use it in stables it will just disable that feature
09:41:32 <Terkhen> it's possible in this case because it is something minor
09:41:41 <Terkhen> with big stuff you usually can't :P
09:43:54 <planetmaker> one could... but at so much extra cost in coding time I didn't consider it worth for ogfx+landscape :-)
09:44:06 <Terkhen> yes :)
09:44:10 <planetmaker> and... if people want bleeding-edge NewGRFs they gotta use bleeding-edge nightlies :-)
09:44:33 <planetmaker> (we need testers after all :-P )
09:45:02 <Diablo-D3> hrm you know
09:45:10 <Diablo-D3> why cant I just lower the land a lot farther than sea level
09:45:37 <Terkhen> because no one has coded an alternative
09:45:50 <Diablo-D3> Terkhen: you wouldnt have to strictly
09:46:13 <Diablo-D3> theres already patches to increase maximum height
09:46:33 <Diablo-D3> so all you do is increase sea level
09:46:42 <Terkhen> go ahead and make a patch then :)
09:46:56 <Diablo-D3> I suspect someone already has
09:47:02 <Diablo-D3> trunk just keeps failing to commit it
09:47:29 <Terkhen> of course, it is just a laziness issue
09:47:58 <Diablo-D3> of course it is, openttd wouldnt be nearly as good as it is without extreme lazyness.
09:48:15 <Terkhen> it would have 3D graphics with rotations and stuff
09:48:30 <planetmaker> and a new selection of more efficient guns...
09:48:34 <Diablo-D3> its one of the virtues of a programmer (along with hubris and impatience)
09:48:36 <Terkhen> if only the people that know how to do absolutely everything were doing it
09:48:52 <norbert79> planetmaker: Nah, a regular Glock would do the trick...
09:49:07 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: ...
09:49:15 <Diablo-D3> did you seriously just recommend a Glock?
09:49:17 <V453000> I dont think 3D graphics would help at all :) particularly the newgrf spehere
09:49:31 <planetmaker> it would be the newnewgrf spehere
09:49:36 <Diablo-D3> also, screw 3D graphics
09:49:41 <Terkhen> NewNewstuff
09:49:42 <Diablo-D3> just use a grid voxel engine
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09:50:52 <Terkhen> I happen to have one in a random folder in my hard disk
09:51:04 <Terkhen> it is perfectly suited to turn a sprite-based game magically into a 3D game
09:51:07 <Terkhen> but... laziness
09:51:34 <planetmaker> :-)
09:52:06 <norbert79> Terkhen: You know, I am soo lazy, that I won't even say: "awww" to that
09:52:25 * planetmaker introduces another scale: the "vapourness"
09:52:26 <Diablo-D3>
09:52:27 <Diablo-D3> YES
09:52:35 <Diablo-D3> _THIS MUST BE MERGED_
09:52:37 * planetmaker guesses it's quite low when Terkhen is measued with it
09:53:03 * planetmaker assumes it's much higher with other people talking much in this channel today
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09:54:03 <V453000> Diablo-D3: may I ask for how long do you play openttd?
09:54:11 <Terkhen> in fact, laziness is not only an openttd issue
09:54:31 <Diablo-D3> V453000: yesterday I accidently played it for over 24 hours straight.
09:54:33 <Terkhen> if people with true vision where placed in the right places, we would have flying cars and cool stuff like in the back to the future film by now
09:54:41 <V453000> in total
09:54:46 <Diablo-D3> Terkhen: fuck that, I just want the shoes.
09:54:47 <planetmaker> totally
09:54:51 <norbert79> Terkhen: Well, we have the lace-shoes...
09:55:01 <Diablo-D3> V453000: for several years.
09:55:06 <norbert79> Terkhen: 3000$ and it's yours!
09:55:10 <planetmaker> we also have star trek's communicators
09:55:18 <norbert79> planetmaker: Aye
09:55:31 <norbert79> planetmaker: And Bath'lets can be also forged...
09:55:38 <planetmaker> :-)
09:55:48 <planetmaker> Data will be coming soon ;-)
09:55:53 <Diablo-D3> glock, a modern bathlet for a modern age.
09:56:00 * Diablo-D3 runs
09:56:23 <norbert79> planetmaker: Aye! Can't await when we make material out of energy, so we can have holodecks too
09:56:58 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: nope
09:57:00 <norbert79> planetmaker: Can't await the replicator neither...
09:57:04 <Terkhen> this was not my point but... it seems that I won't be able to make it anyways :)
09:57:05 <Diablo-D3> thats not how holodecks work
09:57:08 * Terkhen goes back to productive stuff
09:57:14 <Diablo-D3> its just photon manipulation
09:57:18 <Diablo-D3> including the "solid" objects
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09:57:43 * andythenorth has a dream
09:57:52 <planetmaker> oye
09:58:01 <Diablo-D3> no dreams, we've had enough of those
09:58:04 <norbert79> andythenorth: No connection loss while IRC-ing? :)
09:58:15 <andythenorth> I quit earlier
09:58:17 <andythenorth> I'm working
09:58:24 <andythenorth> I need thinking breaks
09:58:31 <andythenorth> this is a thinking break :P
09:58:35 <norbert79> andythenorth: That's called booze
09:58:54 * Terkhen can't have thinking breaks while connected to the internet
09:58:57 <planetmaker> that doesn't pay the bill ;-)
09:59:04 <andythenorth> if we had roadtypes + rv-wagons
09:59:07 <norbert79> andythenorth: I prefer the teleport sometimes after a long night. One last shot of brandy,... and I wake up home :)
09:59:20 <andythenorth> I could add the right number of trailers to a tractor, and send it down a dirt road to the transfer station
09:59:40 <planetmaker> and?
09:59:40 <andythenorth> neither of those are currently possible
09:59:46 <planetmaker> yes
09:59:49 <andythenorth> this is sad :)
09:59:54 <planetmaker> yes :-(
09:59:59 <andythenorth> not very sad, on the scale of world affairs
10:00:03 * planetmaker would volunteer to draw dirt roads
10:00:09 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: finally a use for those egrvts crawlers?
10:00:27 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, the desert scenery has something similar...
10:00:36 <planetmaker> which?
10:00:43 <norbert79> planetmaker: just some modification to that... Dirt-road
10:01:10 <planetmaker> dunno which you talk of
10:01:44 <norbert79> "* planetmaker would volunteer to draw dirt roads" -> where the town-roads have no concrete, but dirt-like,l within the desert scenery
10:01:58 <Terkhen> :)
10:02:06 <norbert79> damn, hard to show without proper screenshot... Never mind
10:02:25 <norbert79> anyway, I would use that as base...
10:03:34 <planetmaker> :-) Well, I already have an idea how such dirt road should look like... it exists as image in my head already
10:03:35 <norbert79> and there are the so called: industrial roads, which looks similar to regular roads, but in a much worse condition and no markings
10:03:46 <planetmaker> maybe I'll even implement it as NewObject some day
10:03:53 <planetmaker> Unless roadtypes exist by then ;-)
10:03:56 <norbert79> planetmaker: Put your head closer to the PC please so I can transfer them :)
10:04:02 <planetmaker> :-D
10:04:05 <V453000> :D
10:04:27 <norbert79> incoming data..."00011110010111001000100111...."
10:04:28 <planetmaker> norbert79, but you're talking of an actually existing NewGRF?
10:04:41 <planetmaker> btw, my brain works analogue ;-)
10:04:51 * Diablo-D3 looks at increased height patch... has a sad
10:05:03 <planetmaker> much more detail compared to yes/no ;-)
10:05:04 <norbert79> Yes, sure, I just can't recall if it was inside the original Windows GFX, OpenGFX or TTR
10:05:30 <planetmaker> NARoads have a dirt version
10:06:14 <V453000> quite awesome version, particularly in arctic with snow
10:06:18 <norbert79> Never got there using it, despite it looks really attractive
10:06:31 <V453000> just too bad the RV stations cant get snow aware :(
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10:06:58 <norbert79> I think the NA collection was the first with a very detailed PDF file I have ever red through
10:07:06 <norbert79> yet never got there using it
10:07:19 <norbert79> is there any server offering games based on those sets?
10:07:39 <Diablo-D3>
10:07:45 <V453000> our server uses them once in a while but i doubt you are interested
10:08:24 <norbert79> V453000: Actually I am also planning having a server sometimes, but I would use a dutch scenery for that, possibly based on aheightmap, rest would be random.
10:08:26 <V453000> but I think romazoon doesnt use any other roads than those, but in bitumen version
10:08:40 <V453000> dutch, _height_ map?
10:08:41 <V453000> :P
10:08:48 <norbert79> V453000: Ha ha :)
10:09:00 <norbert79> V453000: Why so serious? ;-))
10:09:14 <V453000> just dislike heightmaps probably :P
10:09:16 <Terkhen> it can be made, but it only requires two bits per pixel
10:09:47 <V453000> he :D land/water ?
10:09:50 <norbert79> V453000: I plan having it on 1024x1024.
10:09:59 <norbert79> V453000: We'll see how well it works out
10:10:08 <V453000> im getting lost in 1*1k
10:10:19 <V453000> 512*512 is reasonable maximum imo
10:10:30 <norbert79> depends...
10:10:32 <Diablo-D3> heh 2048x2048 is too big if we cant have giant mountains =/
10:10:35 <norbert79> but in general I agree
10:10:37 <V453000> in extreme cases with a lot of water 1024*512 is fine :)
10:10:44 * planetmaker started a 256*512 game yesterday
10:10:55 <planetmaker> and it's not small :-)
10:10:58 <MNIM> meh, the netherlands have some interesting height differences down south that take some creative approaches to laying rails when using realistic acceleration
10:11:06 <V453000> planetmaker: rather come join PS with 128x1024 japan :P
10:11:20 <planetmaker> V453000, but I need a test game for many NewGRFs
10:11:23 <norbert79> MNIM: Aye, despite I have chosen Holland for some other reasons
10:11:25 <V453000> :)
10:11:25 * Terkhen has not played a game with a realistic map in a long time
10:11:32 <V453000> thats something different then :P
10:11:37 <norbert79> V453000: Did, was fun... I think I have a savegame of it
10:12:00 <norbert79> V453000: Found the added GRF's nice
10:12:02 <planetmaker> and there's no FIRS 0.7 on bananas, too
10:12:14 <V453000> yeah :(
10:12:19 <MNIM> the only thing that'd be lacking in ottd is land below sealevel
10:12:29 <MNIM> also, chunnel patch should be used :D
10:12:39 <Terkhen> I'm going to start a testing game... in which country? :P
10:13:02 <planetmaker> :-) I used swedish houses and German townnames in arctic climate... so it's *somewhere*
10:13:14 <planetmaker> maybe in the near-alpine region
10:13:30 <norbert79> With a bit of Schwitzer-Dütsch, and makes the mood :)
10:13:49 <planetmaker> but.... then... it has WAY too much water for an alpine scenery
10:13:56 <V453000> is FIRS 0.7 on bundles? I guess it is eh :)
10:14:43 <andythenorth> yes
10:14:51 <andythenorth> as is FIRS trunk
10:14:58 <andythenorth> which has the improved station algorithm :D
10:15:09 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: - You can help out, if you have so much time, and being interested :)
10:15:11 * planetmaker doesn't need that
10:15:36 * planetmaker has no problem with station rating
10:15:45 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: the only reason I dont code on openttd is there might be no openttd left after Im done
10:15:57 <V453000> andythenorth: cool then I will test soon probably =D
10:16:01 <Diablo-D3> and openttd is rather too political for my tastes
10:16:02 <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, I can ensure you, there will be
10:16:10 <planetmaker> "political"?
10:16:15 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: Dude, seriously, you have some serious issues :)
10:16:29 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: after being part of the foss community for over a decade? you would too.
10:16:47 <andythenorth> everything is political
10:16:53 <andythenorth> unless you plough your own furrow
10:17:01 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: After what I have seen from you over the past few days, I even doubt, that you are over 18...
10:17:02 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: yes, but there are those who love to cause shit
10:17:08 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: they ruin the development process.
10:17:23 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: I was a much younger person when I was 18.
10:17:40 <planetmaker> have you matured since?
10:17:51 <V453000> jesus christ
10:17:57 <norbert79> planetmaker: Rethorical question, I assume
10:18:17 <andythenorth> maybe thinking time is over :P
10:18:48 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: Btw define 'political'. If it's political having own views, well, in this view everyone is a politican. I guess you just don't even understand such basic terms, and causes confusion for you.
10:19:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you have no problem with station rating? Probably because you build high-capacity, high-speed networks :D
10:19:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth, no, I didn't
10:19:50 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: I define political as what projects become when you let non-coders have any say in the final product.
10:20:00 <Diablo-D3> hell, even defining it as a "product" is political.
10:20:03 <planetmaker> <-- typical
10:20:10 <planetmaker> ^ andythenorth
10:20:11 <norbert79> andythenorth: - Would this collection defined as being a high-speed network? :)
10:20:35 <planetmaker> per industry 1..3 trains suffice to keep it good
10:20:35 <andythenorth> yes
10:21:05 <andythenorth> hmm
10:21:06 <planetmaker> thus local-transport via truck. And then mid to long-range link via train
10:21:08 <planetmaker> works perfect
10:21:14 <V453000> norbert79: not with the 88kmh curves in some stations :P
10:21:27 <norbert79> V453000: Which picture you are looking at?
10:21:29 <planetmaker> thus not industries get a station, but rather an industrial complex
10:21:39 <V453000> 3
10:21:43 <norbert79> moment, checking
10:21:52 <planetmaker> sometimes I make one station with several sub-stations (i.e. 1-track stations adjacent) for pickup
10:21:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes, that's like inverse piglet technique, that works with RVs
10:21:58 <planetmaker> seems still to work
10:22:10 <andythenorth> do you have any primaries (coal, iron ore) etc with trains picking up directly?
10:22:13 <norbert79> V453000: That's basically a station, and goods-trains only visit the place a bit rare
10:22:22 <V453000> :p
10:22:26 <Diablo-D3> hrm
10:22:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth, having each farm have a train connection is bollocks. Especially as they're clustered
10:22:39 <andythenorth> yes, that's the point with farms :)
10:22:42 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: yeah but thats the problem
10:22:43 <norbert79> V453000: Besides, I even preferred the ro-ro method, because of the raw materials incoming...
10:22:44 <planetmaker> Also mines do cluster. Thus I can use trucks there, too
10:22:46 <Diablo-D3> farms ARENT clustered
10:22:54 <V453000> arent they?
10:22:57 <Diablo-D3> I'd love to have the game spawn a shitload of clustered mines and farms
10:22:57 <andythenorth> aren't they?
10:23:04 <andythenorth> how odd
10:23:05 <andythenorth> mine doe
10:23:06 <andythenorth> s
10:23:11 <norbert79> andythenorth: So does mine...
10:23:14 <Diablo-D3> but instead they're all over the damned place randomy splattered
10:23:15 <andythenorth> that's bizarre
10:23:16 <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, of course they are
10:23:23 <planetmaker> they're nicely clustered
10:23:34 <Diablo-D3> I have never seen that in a game of ottd ever.
10:23:36 <planetmaker> when you play with FIRS
10:23:39 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: You see, well, no, I form it different: Have you ever moved out of your flat?
10:23:42 <planetmaker> you missed our topic, see
10:23:46 * andythenorth mentions concept empricism
10:23:59 <Diablo-D3> Im using firs
10:24:23 <Diablo-D3> maybe I have my industry setting too low, what are you guys using for new map settings?
10:24:23 <andythenorth> screenshot - maybe you found an edge case
10:24:35 <andythenorth> clustering isn't bomb-proof, it can fail
10:24:47 <planetmaker> andythenorth, can it?
10:24:52 <andythenorth> yes
10:25:02 <planetmaker> to me the algorithm looked pretty bullet-proof
10:25:03 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but Im using absurdly large map sizes with absurdly low industry spawning
10:25:16 <andythenorth> there are certain combinations of map size + industry setting + randomness that will fail clustering
10:25:17 <norbert79> V453000: Btw Picture 1 was a huge challenege, so was 4. 4 was necessary because of the traffic around the places, and 1 was a solution, where the town wasn't really cooperating, and I hate being corruptive :)
10:25:17 <planetmaker> like N clusters, and build there or don't
10:25:31 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: yeah but thats wrong
10:25:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the algorithm is pretty sound, but it scales by map size
10:25:40 <Diablo-D3> a cluster needs a minimum spawn limit to spawn
10:25:49 <Diablo-D3> so either spawn 4 or 5 farms, or dont at all
10:25:49 <planetmaker> ach, Diablo-D3, do you ever see anything you see as 'not wrong'?
10:25:59 <norbert79> planetmaker: Himself...
10:26:03 <andythenorth> planetmaker so testing the algorithm for all combinations of variables is pretty impossible...
10:26:13 <V453000> norbert79: 1 looks fun, 4 is ... well ... that kind of hubs is bad in general :) but if it works for your needs
10:26:14 <planetmaker> and do you have any idea about the used algorithms before you recommend any specific procedure?
10:26:19 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: see what you just did right there? thats politics.
10:26:33 <V453000> Diablo-D3: why do you even discuss stuff here, seriously
10:26:43 <V453000> everything is political and wrong, so ...
10:26:53 <andythenorth> of course it's politics
10:26:54 <Diablo-D3> V453000: honestly, I dont know. openttd has always resisted change.
10:27:02 <norbert79> V453000: I don't really am comfortable with too many bridges and tunnels, I just extended the regular cloverleaf formation, and addedd possibility for buffering if a train crashes down
10:27:02 <Terkhen> I wonder how asking someone why he is so annyoing is political :P
10:27:04 <andythenorth> politics is how we get stuff done
10:27:05 <Diablo-D3> a lot of devs are like LOL PATCHES, and then when people provide patches they never make it in
10:27:17 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: but thats the thing, politics has never gotten anything done
10:27:17 <andythenorth> the patches are FAIL
10:27:33 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: That's every development is all about.
10:27:38 <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: can you provide evidence that politics never got anything done?
10:27:44 <andythenorth> I can provide counter evidence if that helps
10:27:48 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: It's like cooking, but I guess you never done that for real
10:27:49 <V453000> norbert79: well, okay :) but making 3way junctions is much better than 4ways in general :P not always, in general
10:27:53 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: everything in the united states government post 1970.
10:28:14 <andythenorth> politics very nearly got a technical default done recently
10:28:19 <andythenorth> that would have been quite a lot stuff
10:28:20 <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, no, it's not. It's just that 'recommendations' out of the blue without considering anything but a VERY narrow view - if considering anything to do with the background at all
10:28:36 <V453000> ^
10:28:40 <andythenorth> politics also got about 14m people killed by Stalin. That's lots done
10:28:42 <Diablo-D3> all I see is people basically not wanting openttd to become a bigger game.
10:28:43 <norbert79> V453000: Yes, I reconsidered many options, and ended up with that design. Seemed to be working well, without any blockage or slowing down. Can send you savegame if you would like to have it
10:28:45 <Terkhen> Diablo-D3: fork and prove us wrong :)
10:28:55 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: if you consider that an accomplishment, you are a fucked up person.
10:28:58 <V453000> norbert79: I think I can imagine it quite well :)
10:29:06 <planetmaker> And it's not like your "observations" describe a problem such that anyone could even follow your descriptions of your perceived problems.
10:29:09 <V453000> Diablo-D3: you are the only one fucked up here
10:29:11 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: You are crossing a line here dude...
10:29:22 <planetmaker> You usually just mutter "this is bad", "that doesn't work" or "this should be done"
10:29:23 <andythenorth> nah, he's not really
10:29:24 <planetmaker> oh right
10:29:26 <andythenorth> I'm trolling him
10:29:35 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: and you're not very good at it =/
10:29:41 <norbert79> andythenorth: I know, yet he should be able to see that
10:29:45 <andythenorth> if he swore a bit less, he'd be interesting
10:29:48 <V453000> yes because you dong get it Diablo-D3
10:29:58 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: normally people dont go straight for hitler/stalin this early
10:30:23 <andythenorth> hmm
10:30:24 <andythenorth> good point
10:30:33 <norbert79> we can stick to Mao Ce Tung too
10:30:39 <andythenorth> I was going to mention Mao
10:30:44 <Diablo-D3> lmao.
10:30:46 <norbert79> Hah, was faster
10:31:07 * andythenorth has to go do some work
10:31:12 <norbert79> But I can mention the purification wars, that was also fun
10:31:38 <Diablo-D3> But yeah, clearly a lot of work has been done on the height level patch, yet there is no git branch for it (due to the fact ottd doesnt even use git, which is another problem), and no discussion of it being merged into master
10:31:43 <planetmaker> work...? hm, yes, let's beautify another plot
10:32:06 <Diablo-D3> Outside developers see a lot of really useful work to make openttd be a better game being wasted, so why would anyone seriously consider it?
10:32:06 <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, see, there you start again, senselessly complaining without getting the facts straight
10:32:12 <planetmaker> openttd has svn, hg and git repos
10:32:14 <Terkhen> Diablo-D3: if you manage to convince the more height levels author to use git or another proper version control system we would be quite grateful
10:32:23 <planetmaker> Terkhen, he started using hg
10:32:24 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: thats even worse. it needs exactly one.
10:32:27 <Terkhen> oh, nice to know :)
10:32:34 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: We were told, that you know everything, you can code, you can do anything you would like to. Why don't you and start on your own patch? You said you won't do it, because it's political. Isn't it, that you don't have a clue about anything?
10:32:45 <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, for what benefit?
10:32:46 <Terkhen> Diablo-D3: why only one?
10:32:55 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: to make it easier for developers.
10:33:01 <Terkhen> in which way is that easier?
10:33:01 * planetmaker disagrees
10:33:04 <planetmaker> ^
10:33:10 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: Did you EVER done ANY kind of development?
10:33:12 <Diablo-D3> lots of projects have done stupid things like that, and it only makes developing large projects much more difficult.
10:33:17 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: yeah, frequently.
10:33:22 <Terkhen> I prefer mercurial, other prefers svn, others git
10:33:24 <Diablo-D3> but see, there you go with the politics again
10:33:26 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: You did shit dude, show us at least 1 thing
10:33:31 <Diablo-D3> its like being stuck in a fox news echo chamber.
10:33:35 * planetmaker really wonders how using the VCS of my choice makes it more difficult for me
10:33:35 <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: the politics case doesn't work
10:33:36 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: Stop bullshitting and show us something
10:33:40 <Diablo-D3> next you'll be asking me to provide my birth certificate.
10:33:46 <V453000> LOL
10:33:49 <Terkhen> it seems that disagreeing with him is political :P
10:33:58 <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: which one VCS should ottd adopt?
10:34:02 <Diablo-D3> Terkhen: attacking people using baseless insults is political.
10:34:03 <norbert79> Terkhen: Typical attitude...
10:34:16 <andythenorth> it's not political, it's an ad-hominem attack
10:34:29 <planetmaker> disagreeing isn't
10:34:29 <Diablo-D3> ad hominem attacks are the new face of politics.
10:34:31 <Terkhen> so... saying that different developers prefer different VCS is a baseless insult against you?
10:34:35 <andythenorth> you conflate politics and rhetoric
10:34:38 <Diablo-D3> well, the old face too.
10:34:43 <norbert79> Terkhen: he is lying as hell, has nothing in hands, and he blames you for everything... Sounds like someone coming from the same happy group like Tom Cruise...
10:34:55 <planetmaker> haha :-)
10:35:00 <Diablo-D3> see? the baseless insults.
10:35:05 <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: anyway, which one VCS should ottd adopt?
10:35:09 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: True or untrue?
10:35:16 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: True or not true?
10:35:20 <norbert79> tell us
10:35:20 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: hell no, I support operation clambake.
10:35:28 <norbert79> *facepalm*
10:35:34 <Terkhen> ignore what you consider baseless attacks and answer the rest of the questions
10:35:36 <norbert79> that wasn't I asking about
10:35:53 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: git, largely. there doesnt seem to be another one thats nearly as good.
10:36:04 <Terkhen> why git? I prefer mercurial
10:36:11 <Terkhen> it's simpler for me to use
10:36:12 <Diablo-D3> Terkhen: yeah so did I for awhile
10:36:22 <andythenorth> is there a technical evaluation that demonstrates git is empirically better?
10:36:27 <norbert79> Aw, what the hell, why I am even trying, let's grow my ignore list a bit...
10:36:28 * andythenorth is interested
10:36:30 <Diablo-D3> but the "git is hard to use" argument died out post-cognito and major usability changes
10:36:44 * planetmaker senses vapour
10:36:46 <Diablo-D3> and hg and git largely both do the same stuff internally
10:36:49 * andythenorth is interested, because git-hub seems to be now default
10:36:51 <Terkhen> and?
10:37:00 <Terkhen> I still don't want to learn another VCS :P
10:37:00 <Diablo-D3> and andy just brought up a good point
10:37:08 <Diablo-D3> theres still no hg equiv to github
10:37:14 <planetmaker> lool
10:37:17 <orudge> Diablo-D3: you can, of course, choose to use the OpenTTD git repository, though. You can branch it, work on your own patches in it, etc. What's the problem?
10:37:18 <Diablo-D3> there is two sites that try to do the same and dont even come close
10:37:22 <andythenorth> in other places I work, git is now becoming the 'required' VCS.
10:37:24 <Diablo-D3> s/is/are/
10:37:32 <planetmaker> Diablo-D3, you err again on the side of facts
10:37:41 <Diablo-D3> okay hows this
10:37:43 <Diablo-D3> I use both daily
10:37:49 <norbert79> orudge: Hah, welcome. I guess Diablo-D3 just made you also appear...
10:37:53 <planetmaker> bitbucket works nicely with hg and is the github equivalent
10:37:55 <Diablo-D3> git works more efficiently and more projects that I follow use it.
10:38:00 <V453000> guess banning people is uncommon here
10:38:08 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: bitbucket isnt nearly as flexible imo
10:38:09 * andythenorth supposes that git might win
10:38:22 <norbert79> V453000: Wait, isn't that political? But wait, if we change that common, would it be less political? :)
10:38:27 <planetmaker> V453000, we're having fun ;-)
10:38:34 <Diablo-D3> for really basic usage, git and hg _are_ identical
10:38:38 <Terkhen> my point is: this discussion would make sense if we were forced to use a single version control system
10:38:38 <V453000> I know :P dont worr
10:38:39 <V453000> y
10:38:43 <Terkhen> luckily we are not in that situation
10:38:46 <Diablo-D3> they just use different names for the same commands
10:38:54 <andythenorth> Terkhen: why not just use one vcs?
10:38:57 <andythenorth> it would be easier
10:39:03 <Terkhen> easier for who?
10:39:07 <planetmaker> good. why would I then use one and not the other, or not even which I prefer?
10:39:10 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: they're saying Im wrong because OH THINK OF THE DEVELOPERS or some other nonsense
10:39:22 <orudge> also, for what it's worth, Diablo-D3, if you're not happy with the way OpenTTD is run, you can of course fork it and start your own project ;)
10:39:30 <Terkhen> Diablo-D3: you failed to say what it is better :P
10:39:33 <Diablo-D3> orudge: Ive thought about it, but thats not the solution
10:39:36 <norbert79> Why not using one OS for everyone, let's say it would be Linux. Wouldn't it be much easier for everyone? Or cars, let's everyone one type of car...
10:39:41 <Diablo-D3> what makes ottd what it is is the community, not the code
10:39:58 <Terkhen> so... it is better for the community to force all of them to use a single version control system
10:39:58 <andythenorth> by requiring git, we'd reduce friction
10:39:59 <Diablo-D3> and I'd rather see ottd split up into a framework that makes it easier to make these kinds of games
10:39:59 <norbert79> lol.. Let's compile the community, instead of the code :)
10:40:11 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: I agree
10:40:14 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what do you mean?
10:40:18 <andythenorth> having multiple vcs is an overhead
10:40:18 <V453000> I want to see how you compile me norbert79 :P
10:40:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth, how so?
10:40:27 <norbert79> V453000: So do I :)
10:40:29 <andythenorth> and it means we attract multiple kinds of developers
10:40:34 <V453000> norbert79: might be tough :D
10:41:05 <norbert79> V453000: Aye :) I am just jumping off from this conv. I am already exhausted by this nonsense already.
10:41:08 <V453000> norbert79: but it might be rewarding, you might create "quite" a successful AI :P
10:41:10 <Terkhen> I don't think that's bad
10:41:16 <V453000> norbert79: yeye :D
10:41:17 <norbert79> V453000: Good point there
10:41:23 <Terkhen> the more the merrier I think
10:41:44 <Diablo-D3> heh, I like how norbert79 calls it nonsense
10:42:12 <Diablo-D3> yet denies its politics.
10:42:17 <andythenorth> having multiple vcs means more people can pick up and work with the code, because they can use the vcs of their choice
10:42:20 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: I was thinking on you dude, and your bull...
10:42:29 <andythenorth> this doesn't result in more good patches
10:42:31 <Diablo-D3> see? he continues to deny its politics.
10:42:36 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: exactly!
10:42:39 <Terkhen> why not?
10:42:55 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: and people who actually code on a daily basis get this
10:42:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth, sure it doesn't?
10:43:04 <norbert79> Terkhen: Using more systems doesn't mean automatically improvment, but a chance of involving more people.
10:43:04 <andythenorth> it would be better to attract more external developers
10:43:11 <norbert79> andythenorth: Exactly
10:43:14 <andythenorth> having only git would attract more external developers
10:43:22 <Terkhen> why?
10:43:26 <norbert79> andythenorth: Doubt
10:43:35 <andythenorth> because there are *many* developers out there who know that cool projects use git
10:43:43 <andythenorth> if you don't use git, defacto, you're not a cool project
10:43:43 <Terkhen> openttd uses git too
10:43:45 <norbert79> andythenorth: Oh, I get it :D
10:43:48 <andythenorth> *only* git
10:43:53 <Terkhen> why should it use only git?
10:43:53 <Diablo-D3> hey, lots of uncool projects use git too you know
10:43:59 <andythenorth> I've seen the same in numerous web frameworks over the last decade
10:44:05 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: But it's not cool then using GIT...
10:44:13 <orudge> we should just abandon all these VCSes and use CVS instead :p
10:44:15 <Diablo-D3> Terkhen: because what the hell does it serve us to have 9000 vcses
10:44:17 <andythenorth> basically to attract developers, you need a certain combination of cool technologies
10:44:20 <norbert79> orudge: Aye!
10:44:27 <planetmaker> hm... CVS...
10:44:28 <Terkhen> Diablo-D3: you have failed to answer all of my questions
10:44:29 <andythenorth> you also need a more liberal attitude to commits
10:44:35 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: ooh! ooh! we can port ottd to java+seam3!
10:44:44 <Diablo-D3> and draw the graphics with html5!
10:44:47 <Diablo-D3> ottd in your browser!
10:44:53 <dihedral> ....
10:44:55 * Diablo-D3 's head explodes
10:44:59 * planetmaker considers a +m
10:45:06 <dihedral> why do you highlight me?
10:45:07 <dihedral> :-P
10:45:21 <planetmaker> dihedral, that is now really unfortunate :-)
10:45:23 <norbert79> dihedral: Lol
10:45:24 <dihedral> planetmaker, please rather consider only a +q
10:45:25 <andythenorth>
10:45:29 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: no, ottd is big enough we need a merge master
10:45:33 <dihedral> planetmaker, :-)
10:45:34 <dihedral> yep
10:45:34 <planetmaker> :-)
10:45:38 <andythenorth> Drupal has done it correctly, one vcs, and an open attitude to commits
10:45:41 <andythenorth> Drupal is now huge
10:45:41 <dihedral> the 'java' part did it :-D
10:45:59 <V453000> dihedral: how come highlights? nobody wrote beer
10:46:01 <andythenorth> the Drupal attitude is that core developers only maintain core, and wider community devs maintain the rest
10:46:02 <dihedral> drupals bootloading can take a huge amount of time
10:46:03 <Diablo-D3> wait, you're seriously going to bitch about me saying java?
10:46:08 <dihedral> in miliseconds of course :-D
10:46:17 <andythenorth> Drupal has won
10:46:20 <Terkhen> andythenorth: OpenTTD does that too... the "rest" is NewGRFS and AIs
10:46:28 <andythenorth> not using Drupal is now a huge problem commercially
10:46:33 <dihedral> Diablo-D3, if you had been in this channel for more than just a few days you would know when i am bitching around ;-)
10:46:40 <Diablo-D3> newgrf isnt flexible enough when the most important changes need to be done to "the core"
10:46:51 <Terkhen> I still don't follow much of your points, andythenorth
10:47:01 <dihedral> oh - hello Terkhen
10:47:02 <dihedral> :-)
10:47:03 <Elukka> did diablo ever link one of the many things he has developed
10:47:11 <norbert79> Elukka: Nope
10:47:20 <Diablo-D3> no, and I dont have to.
10:47:27 <norbert79> lol, because none exist
10:47:28 <dihedral> hehe
10:47:30 <orudge> [11:44:28] <andythenorth> you also need a more liberal attitude to commits <-- I dunno, the current system at least keeps things of a high quality. There are a lot of poor patches posted to the forum - would you really want all of those in core game?
10:47:31 <Diablo-D3> last time I noticed you're big enough to use google.
10:47:33 <Elukka> it would strengthen your otherwise baseless case a bit
10:47:39 <dihedral> hello owen
10:47:43 <orudge> There are no doubt a few good patches that get overlooked as well, to be fair
10:47:45 <andythenorth> orudge: but then it would be a bigger game
10:47:46 <andythenorth> and win
10:47:47 <Terkhen> I can follow your logic on the more open commits policy, but I don't think that applies to openttd because ^
10:47:48 <orudge> 'lo dihedral
10:47:52 *** Zephyris has quit IRC
10:47:56 <Diablo-D3> at least andythenorth gets it
10:47:58 <Elukka> anyway, diablo, since you're good at development, and don't like ottd's politics, why don't you make your own branch?
10:48:00 <andythenorth> the assumption is that we want to be big and win?
10:48:08 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: Ive considered it, and its not worth it.
10:48:14 <Elukka> why not?
10:48:14 <Terkhen> but I don't understand the whole "single VCS is better, git even better", at least not without reasons
10:48:28 <Diablo-D3> if I have to fight with the original developers to get shit done, then its not worth forking to begin with
10:48:34 <Elukka> what
10:48:39 <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: *that* doesn't make sense
10:48:41 <Elukka> no, you don't have to deal with the original developers at all
10:48:43 <Terkhen> you don't have to fight
10:48:44 <Elukka> if you make your own fork it's yours
10:48:50 <Terkhen> create a fork and do whatever you want
10:48:52 <Elukka> you don't ever have to even talk to the original devs if you dislike them so much
10:48:54 <dihedral> Diablo-D3, did i just see that correctly? you valued your own code?
10:49:07 <Terkhen> since OpenTTD supports all three mayor VCS systems, you can even clone it to the one of your liking :)
10:49:16 <dihedral> hehe
10:49:20 <dihedral> and keep it private :-P
10:49:34 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: no, it makes sense perfectly. code is a product of the developers.
10:49:38 <andythenorth> ?
10:49:39 <andythenorth> ÷
10:49:40 <andythenorth> ¿
10:49:54 <andythenorth> fork is what happens when you fall out with the developers
10:49:57 <Elukka> you could make your own website and never go to tt forums and never say a word to the devs and make your own version of openttd
10:49:59 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: if the developers cant act like developers on the outside, why even care if they can act like developers on the inside and actually produce code worth saving?
10:50:10 <Elukka> so, what other reasons do you have for not doing it
10:50:16 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: fork is what happens when the developers have failed.
10:50:21 <dihedral> Diablo-D3, i think you might want to step down a bit ;-)
10:50:35 <dihedral> you are entering a thin-ice area
10:50:41 * andythenorth is mostly just baffled
10:50:46 <norbert79> Holy... The more Diablo-D3 speaks the more it's becoming obvious he has no idea of whatsoever...
10:50:47 <andythenorth> black is white and white is black
10:50:48 <planetmaker> hihi...
10:50:50 <planetmaker> @op dihedral
10:50:50 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o dihedral
10:50:51 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: the logical conclusion is if the developers have failed, why bother with the code at all.
10:50:58 <dihedral> may i really?
10:51:02 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: I have not come to the point where Ive ditched openttd.
10:51:03 <norbert79> Please...
10:51:13 *** dihedral sets mode: +q Diablo-D3!*@*
10:51:16 <dihedral> \o/
10:51:21 <dihedral> i love +q
10:51:39 <andythenorth> nah
10:51:42 <dihedral> not?
10:51:44 <dihedral> why?
10:51:48 <andythenorth> because I'm baffled
10:51:55 <V453000> what is +q?
10:51:56 <andythenorth> and if you do that, I won't get unbaffled
10:51:57 <dihedral> gives a chance to continue reading rather than being ... dismissed
10:52:02 <dihedral> V453000, quiet ;-)
10:52:04 <andythenorth> and then I lose the rest of the day to wondering :P
10:52:07 <V453000> ahh:D
10:52:09 <norbert79> Well, stupidity sure hit a certain new high score today...
10:52:24 <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: I fail to understand the point on forking
10:52:35 <andythenorth> can you restate?
10:52:46 <planetmaker> he currently can't in this channel ;-)
10:52:48 <dihedral> then take it to #diabolol-forks
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10:52:57 <andythenorth> grr
10:52:59 <dihedral> @deop
10:53:03 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: Just one .. Damn I wanted to mention OpenOffice
10:53:04 <dihedral> ...
10:53:04 <andythenorth> that's going to bother me now :P
10:53:14 <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO he's just trolling
10:53:16 <planetmaker> sorry, andythenorth :-)
10:53:24 <planetmaker> he surely only trolled
10:53:31 <andythenorth> he's right and wrong about once vcs btw
10:53:34 <norbert79> Diablo-D3> andythenorth: the logical conclusion is if the developers have failed, why bother with the code at all. ... This blew my mind...
10:53:37 <planetmaker> and according to blat hijs he did so already time before
10:53:46 <andythenorth> if it was a commercial product, once VCS would be best
10:53:50 <andythenorth> but it's not
10:53:52 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I'm curious about that too, please elaborate :P
10:54:00 <planetmaker> andythenorth, we have one authorative VCS - that's svn
10:54:03 <planetmaker> which is fine
10:54:04 <dihedral> i am not quite sure i feel comfortable with op for longer than a few seconds ^^
10:54:10 <norbert79> andythenorth: I will tell you a little secret: even for commercial stuff sometimes more VCS are preferred. seen it :)
10:54:21 <planetmaker> thanks, dihedral for the dirty work ;-)
10:54:26 <dihedral> any time :-)
10:54:27 <andythenorth> more than one is an overhead on your team
10:54:37 <andythenorth> unless you have revisions and such perfectly in sync
10:54:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth, but it just works w/o really much maintenance
10:54:47 <norbert79> andythenorth: That was the case of course
10:54:52 <planetmaker> and it increases developer productivity
10:55:00 <andythenorth> possibly
10:55:02 <planetmaker> as they're all at ease with what they can use
10:55:04 *** dihedral sets mode: -o dihedral
10:55:06 <dihedral> \o/
10:55:07 <dihedral> there we go
10:55:10 <Terkhen> let him finish :P
10:55:23 <norbert79> Sure otherwise it wouldn't make much sense... But let's just move on these topics, I am stuffed
10:55:36 <dihedral> then dont eat so much ^^
10:55:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: in a commercial environment, something lik svn vs. a distributed vcs imposes quite different practices
10:55:46 <norbert79> dihedral: Lol... Was hard to avoid. :)
10:55:56 <dihedral> in a commectial env - such as with bosh - they will not use svn :-P
10:56:04 <andythenorth> we have to :P
10:56:10 * Terkhen would probably prefer a single VCS in a commercial environment too, as long as it is not SVN
10:56:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth, not quite... you still will have a central repo.
10:56:17 <dihedral> i know bosh uses the one from ibm
10:56:19 <dihedral> clear something
10:56:34 <planetmaker> One might use a DVCS as authorative instance, but still, no practical change really
10:56:47 <norbert79> dihedral: IBM rational you mean?
10:56:47 <dihedral> and a central repo is quite important in an comecial env
10:56:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth, and yes, all of us may under threat of death penalty only commit to the svn repo
10:57:02 <andythenorth> hmm
10:57:03 <planetmaker> but develop from whichever repo we want
10:57:05 <dihedral> yes - clearcase
10:57:09 <andythenorth> there was a blog post somewhere
10:57:30 <Elukka> andy: does FIRS work the same in climates besides temperate?
10:57:32 <norbert79> dihedral: Just fyi:
10:57:47 <andythenorth> basically distributed vcs allows team members to sit and develop happily in their local repo....then possibly face huge merges just before ship
10:57:49 <planetmaker> Elukka, yes
10:57:52 <Elukka> \o/
10:57:55 <andythenorth> which means delayed ship, or dropped features
10:57:57 <planetmaker> except sugar cargo is called different
10:58:11 <norbert79> Hmm... yeah... did you fill out those TPS reports?
10:58:16 <andythenorth> svn has...different...problems
10:58:23 <Terkhen> Elukka: yes, except in toyland :P
10:58:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the advantage of dvcs is: you don't break anything
10:58:31 <Elukka> aww i always wanted toyland
10:58:33 <Elukka> (not really)
10:58:38 <Terkhen> andythenorth: yes, that's why I wouldn't want to use SVN only
10:58:43 <andythenorth> sometimes you want to break stuff as fast as possible
10:58:47 <planetmaker> if I were to decide what to use, I'd go for a dvcs
10:58:49 <andythenorth> it means it then gets fixed
10:58:50 <planetmaker> easier
10:58:51 <Elukka> somewhat relatedly, are those nutracks in that screenshot you linked earlier, planetmaker?
10:58:52 <peter1138> git = win
10:59:02 <planetmaker> Elukka, no. It's swedish rails
10:59:07 <dihedral> i consider it worse seeing companies still hung up on cvs :-P
10:59:07 <Elukka> hm. they look nice
10:59:22 <andythenorth> moving your repo + all development practice is a headache
10:59:24 <planetmaker> nutracks "stole" the graphics
10:59:28 <norbert79> Hah, good idea on Toyland, gonna play one round on that scenery tonight.
10:59:34 <planetmaker> (they may of course, they give proper credits)
10:59:37 <dihedral> "can you please check out this svn repo" - client goes to Netbeans -> team -> cvs -> checkout
10:59:41 <dihedral> ... "does not work!"
10:59:43 <Terkhen> well, the huge merges are IMO a team organization problem
10:59:43 <Elukka> i'm slightly conflicted over whether i want to use nutracks
10:59:56 <peter1138> cvs = fail
11:00:00 <Elukka> on one hand it seems interesting on the other it seems like it'd be a bit annoying once you reach the point that money isn't that relevant
11:00:01 <Terkhen> the tool allows it, but it shouldn't encourage it
11:00:06 <planetmaker> Elukka, SwedishRails has more apt snow graphics ;-)
11:00:14 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you can have same problem with svn branches tbh
11:00:28 <planetmaker> but it has no other use than improve graphics of default rails
11:00:29 <norbert79> damn, I was indeed curious on Diablo's many development stuff...
11:00:53 <Elukka> kinda preferring them to cs railroad tracks from the screenshot
11:00:54 <planetmaker> </shameless plug>
11:00:58 <Elukka> at least for a change
11:01:37 <planetmaker> Terkhen, well, svn branches are a similar thing. Like NoAI also was a huge merge
11:01:43 <peter1138> norbert79, google it
11:01:45 <planetmaker> Which is for such features IMHO an acceptable thing
11:01:58 <norbert79> peter1138: Already on it, found nothing so far
11:02:24 <Terkhen> I don't remember it exactly... but I'm quite sure that the NoAI branch wasn't merged a week before a new release
11:02:27 <Elukka> hm. well, now i want swedish houses too
11:02:33 <Elukka> anything else in that series? :P
11:02:35 <Terkhen> probably months before
11:02:55 <peter1138> some bitcoin thing
11:03:11 <Elukka> hahahaha bitcoins
11:03:15 <norbert79> peter1138: Aye...
11:03:39 <Elukka> bitcoins are a pretend currency for paranoid conspiracy theorist libertarians
11:03:50 <Terkhen> huh... I never heard of that
11:04:03 <APTX> bitcoins are a scam
11:04:08 <Elukka> they say the something awful forums (which poked fun of them) are controlled by freemasons and the police :D
11:04:17 <andythenorth>
11:04:29 <Elukka> APTX it's hard to tell if it's a scam or plain idiocy
11:04:45 <Elukka> it does share a lot with pyramid schemes though
11:04:55 <APTX> it favours the ones who start sooner
11:04:59 <Elukka> yeah
11:05:01 <APTX> ... exactly
11:05:09 <planetmaker> Terkhen, it was in January somewhen. And no, I didn't mean any specific time. A week for such big change might be too big
11:05:15 <Elukka> also the creator's real name isn't known and he held a lot of the bitcoins for himself
11:05:28 <norbert79> - one more link from him... Well, even if he is lot older, doubt anyone is able spending more time, than 5 minutes near him.
11:05:29 <Elukka> oh, fun fact, the exchange, mt gox
11:05:34 <Elukka> it's really mtg ox
11:05:39 <Elukka> short for magic the gathering online exchange
11:05:50 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that was my point; svn/hg/git would allow to merge that whenever the users wanted but that isn't advisable :P
11:06:01 <Elukka> they just bought a collectible card game trading site and turned it to a bitcoin exchange
11:06:13 <planetmaker> well... it would allow that only, if the user had commit access, Terkhen ;-)
11:06:18 <planetmaker> same thing, I'd say
11:06:24 <Terkhen> therefore: it is a team organization problem
11:06:29 <Terkhen> in our case it does not happen :P
11:06:29 <planetmaker> yeah
11:06:30 <Elukka> also their main publicist guy used to make a business of scamming desperate people about to lose their homes
11:06:55 <Elukka> they actually reopened the court case from the publicity generated
11:07:37 <Terkhen> heh, with all the flaming I forgot to start my testing game and now it's time for lunch
11:07:41 <norbert79> Hmm, Bitcoins reminds me on Amway and the Fonzi scheme...
11:07:48 <Elukka> oh, in addition to that he's a pedophile
11:07:50 <norbert79> Terkhen: and mine is already over... damn.
11:07:54 <dihedral> lol, Terkhen
11:07:54 <Elukka> i wish i was kidding
11:08:00 <norbert79> Elukka: link
11:08:17 <Elukka> the bitcoin guy i mean
11:08:21 <norbert79> Elukka: Oh
11:08:26 <Terkhen> no big loss, the last one finished after I found a bug within 5 minutes... today's would have been similar
11:08:41 <Terkhen> you shall not play more than an hour without thinking of something to code
11:08:43 <Terkhen> bbl
11:08:46 <dihedral> i cannot remember there beeing any flaming :-P
11:08:52 <dihedral> enjoy your lunch sir
11:11:54 <andythenorth> bbl
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11:12:07 <norbert79> Heh, I have found some rants from Diablo on the Linux Kernel message list and on the Launchpad too...
11:14:05 <norbert79> - Ok, really the last link I share here on him. ... Looking forward to some toyland fun tonight :)
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11:14:29 <Elukka> haha
11:14:55 <Elukka> oh yeah, and mining is a thing where you get a rack of gpus to crack some hashes which gets you precious bitcoins
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11:15:14 <Elukka> they don't care the electricity they're wasting costs more
11:15:25 <norbert79> Elukka: I am curious if he ever seen a dime of it. Exactly...
11:15:55 <Elukka> it's technically possible to gain money out of it, if you use the system to scam others
11:16:07 <Elukka> also if it's stable for a while it'll be useful for organized crime
11:16:12 <Elukka> that's happened with similar systems before
11:16:54 <norbert79> Elukka: - WTF??
11:18:05 <planetmaker> hm, from that IRC log that guy has a serious attitude problem, too
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11:19:52 <norbert79> - Help me I can't stop finding these :) Ah, I need a break.. brb
11:22:42 <MNIM> are we in the business of digging dirt on people in this channel now
11:23:22 <norbert79> MNIM: No, I was merely looking for some real development work, and this is what I have found...
11:23:40 <MNIM> ...oh wait, he thinks third party java frameworks are wonderful
11:23:43 <planetmaker> seems it comes up dirty ;-)
11:23:44 <MNIM> :P
11:23:50 <MNIM> it did >.<
11:23:55 <norbert79> lol
11:23:57 <dihedral> grr :-P
11:25:44 <dihedral> planetmaker, nasty ^^
11:27:04 <planetmaker> hehe
11:29:27 <dihedral> <- throws Exception <- hehe ... lazy brat
11:30:15 <Terkhen> I don't understand why are you digging; he's gone, stop caring
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11:30:36 <dihedral> i followed a link provided
11:30:40 <dihedral> i did not digg ;-)
11:30:47 <Terkhen> yeah, everyone has an excuse :P
11:30:56 <norbert79> Terkhen: Hard, it's like a planecrash, and it seems the more I check back the history, the more horrorific it looks. But I will try to move on :)
11:31:18 <Terkhen> norbert79: you should read some lovecraft stories to see where this will take you
11:31:36 <norbert79> Terkhen: Nah, I will get over this too... :)
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11:59:22 <dihedral> norbert79, over it yet?
11:59:43 <norbert79> dihedral: Yepp... All done.
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12:04:13 <Elukka> does FIRS have any special rules on arctic, like having to deliver food to towns above the snowline for them to grow?
12:04:43 <andythenorth> Elukka: they're the default ttd rules
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12:05:01 <andythenorth> deliver >1t food above snowline per month
12:05:04 <Elukka> i see
12:05:14 <Elukka> poor freezing people
12:05:23 <norbert79> what about wood? :)
12:06:27 <andythenorth> what about it?
12:06:47 <lugo> wasn't there a townset accepting coal?
12:07:08 <norbert79> Well, villages would also need wood to make themselves warm above a certain snowlevel :)
12:07:21 <norbert79> or coal
12:08:07 <andythenorth> delivering fuel to towns is poor gameplay
12:08:22 <lugo> maybe wood->coking plant->coal :)
12:08:34 <norbert79> correct the typo, correct it! :D
12:08:38 <Terkhen> implement town control
12:08:55 <andythenorth> implement rv-wagons!
12:09:00 <andythenorth> implement ponies!
12:09:10 <norbert79> yaaay for ponies :)
12:09:17 <Elukka> curved tracks! that were somehow not annoying to build.
12:09:30 <norbert79> Elukka: Aye, that would be nice to see
12:09:45 <Elukka> CETS will basically have enough sprites :P
12:10:10 <Elukka> i doubt curved track will ever happen, it just seems like a bitch to code and no current train set would support it
12:10:14 <Elukka> not that i know anything about coding
12:11:19 <norbert79> me neither, yet true on the coding bitch part... The curves are just avoiding the whole concept of the engine
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12:12:10 <Elukka> well, both rollercoaster tycoon and locomotion had curved tracks on the same engine as ttd
12:12:15 <Elukka> improved engine of course
12:12:27 <Elukka> the way they were built wasn't great for a ttd-like game though
12:12:34 <SpComb> rct engine != ttd engine
12:12:47 <Elukka> isn't it pretty much a new version of the ttd engine?
12:13:12 <SpComb> cs started writing a new ttd engine, and decided it would work better for roller coasters
12:13:35 <SpComb> and then sometime later he tried to write that new ttd with roller coasters, and the result was locomotion
12:13:36 <Elukka> i thought he was just making a ttd sequel and got sidetracked by rollercoasters
12:13:54 <SpComb> and everyone knows how well that worked out
12:14:23 <norbert79> ...yes... :(
12:14:30 <Elukka> well he made a pretty good game :P
12:15:02 <norbert79> What was his first project?
12:15:20 <norbert79> I am asking, since I remember an ad seen in Elite 2 - Final Frontiers on TTD
12:15:26 <norbert79> ehm, TT that was
12:15:32 <Terkhen> I think it was railroad tycoon
12:15:58 <norbert79> And the text was, if I remember well: a new game by Chris Sawyer soon
12:16:00 <Elukka>
12:16:08 <Elukka> i've been playing some rollercoaster tycoon 1 lately
12:16:12 <Elukka> i think that was the best thing i built
12:16:16 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon was sid meier
12:16:19 <norbert79> Nice
12:16:30 <erik1984> +1 for RCT
12:16:34 <Terkhen> then I'm confusing people :P
12:16:36 <norbert79> ah, right, after Civilization
12:16:44 <Terkhen> too much civilization for me does this
12:17:33 <norbert79> I wonder if anyone played Master of Magic
12:17:35 <erik1984> Elukka: is that with added attractions or loopy landscapes??
12:17:45 <Elukka> both the expansions
12:17:56 * Terkhen wonders if he would be able to enjoy Civilization I after playing Civilization IV for so long
12:17:57 * andythenorth has 4m litres of petrol and can't ship it fast enough :|
12:17:58 <Elukka>
12:18:04 <Elukka> because it was like 4 euros for all of them :P
12:18:35 <Elukka> i only had the original way back when on CD
12:18:50 <Elukka> gog has rct2 too
12:18:52 <Elukka> too too
12:19:20 <erik1984> I have the original, recently got it to work under Wine (in Ubuntu). Completed the first 3 parks. Too bad I lost many old saves.
12:19:27 <norbert79> never played RCT yet... but I doubt I would dare... Might be addictive as TTD was
12:19:53 <Elukka> you should try :P
12:19:55 <MNIM> it is :D
12:20:02 <norbert79> so I shall join the dark side?
12:20:07 <erik1984> That's indeed a problem. It's a not a game to play for 5 minutes and then continue working :(
12:20:19 <MNIM> I actually have rollercoaster tycoon on disk
12:20:29 <MNIM> and the first too, though those aren't legit
12:20:34 <norbert79> I am still even stuck with Caesar 3... Maybe after that :)
12:20:42 <Elukka> RCT2 might be the better buy
12:20:43 <erik1984> They are really cheap
12:20:49 <Elukka> i'm biased towards #1 for nostalgia reasons though
12:20:53 <MNIM> hehe
12:21:13 <MNIM> you know, sawyer should pull that stunt again
12:21:17 <erik1984> Ceasar 3 is a great game as well, there are just too many good games
12:21:34 <MNIM> but this time get distracted by trains instead of rollercoasters :D
12:21:36 <Terkhen> :P
12:22:22 <norbert79> erik1984: Well, I have many "smaller" good games carried with me on my pendrive. Heroes of Might and Magic III, Casear 3, OpenTTD
12:22:23 <MNIM> I have to admit, I actually did build transport networks from rollercoasters in that game
12:22:39 <norbert79> erik1984: All are setup in a way, like they would run from CD, so everything included.
12:23:11 <MNIM> it was glorious. from one side of the park in moments, in the meanwhile enjoying several gs of pure fun! :D
12:23:35 <erik1984> norbert79: That's a good idea.
12:23:45 <Elukka> gog is a nice site
12:24:01 <Elukka> everything is cheap, there's no drm and they try to make everything run on modern computers
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12:24:07 <Elukka> (no, i don't work for them :P)
12:27:26 <erik1984> When you buy RCT from them does it work without patching?
12:28:10 <norbert79> erik1984: I think GOG applies patches
12:28:32 <norbert79> erik1984: Doubt any patches would be neccessary
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12:32:55 <erik1984> norbert79: that would be a good service. Not that it's hard to apply the patches yourself but I'm thinking of inexperienced users.
12:33:41 <erik1984> it has become more difficult to find m though, had to try a few dead links first to get the proper patch for RCT1
12:33:43 <norbert79> erik1984: I think GOG comes automatically with patched games. Like when I bought Max Payne in original, it was though original, but already patched to 1.05
12:34:19 <norbert79> so I guess GOG release the games brought to latest level
12:35:36 <Elukka> yeah i'm pretty sure they're patched
12:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone with a clue? i have smartd set up to poll the drives every 30 minutes, but that causes the drive to do a complete spinup if it was in sleep mode, which is completely unnecessary. any way to prevent that?
12:48:06 <planetmaker> yup. unplugging power helps ;-)
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12:54:12 <dihedral> check with hdparms first?
12:54:16 <Elukka> hm.
12:54:22 <Elukka> any suggestion for a road grf to go with swedish houses?
12:54:35 <dihedral> *road*.grf
12:54:38 <Elukka> oh it has one
12:54:47 <Elukka> or the screenshot uses some other set too
12:54:55 <Elukka> it's loading the default roads for me
12:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i tend to use default roads nowadays
12:56:41 <planetmaker> default roads make much less trouble
12:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause> too many compatibility problems with bridges and landscape
12:56:45 <planetmaker> ^^
12:56:54 <Elukka> hmm, makes sense
12:56:56 <Elukka>
12:57:00 <Elukka> those ones look nice to me though
12:57:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and level crossings
12:57:41 <planetmaker> they're not bad... but landscape support...
12:57:54 <Elukka> think i'm gonna go with default then
12:57:55 <planetmaker> level crossings with railtypes is less of an issue. Luckily
12:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but the beautiful dbset level crossings don't show then ;)
12:58:43 <Elukka> planetmaker, how do you convince swedish rails to work on bridges?
12:59:13 <norbert79> european roadset
12:59:20 <norbert79> used to use it a lot
12:59:32 <Pinkbeast> Anyone know why there _is_ a limit on the number of railtypes?
12:59:42 <planetmaker> Elukka, they simply work
12:59:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i used to use combined roadset in the past. but it is badly coded and throws errors nowadays
13:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: map bits
13:00:08 <planetmaker> i.e. they draw their rails on top of the bridge-supplied surface
13:00:20 <Elukka> it's loading default tracks on bridges for me
13:01:29 <Pinkbeast> Ah, which is also why paired diagonal tracks have to be the same type, etc... but surely these days adding another couple of bytes to each tile is acceptable?
13:02:32 <planetmaker> hm... Elukka I guess you have a point there :-)
13:02:41 <planetmaker> I should officially release an update ;-)
13:02:52 <Elukka> it might dislike the presence of metro tracks
13:02:55 <planetmaker> Nightly versions of it support it, though
13:03:22 <Elukka> ooh
13:03:54 <Elukka> gonna grab the nightly then
13:04:28 <Pinkbeast> Hm. I wonder if stuff most tiles don't have (like rails) could be done with a pointer into a different data structure the elements of which could be bigger.
13:06:03 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, they could. But it'd have a speed impact
13:06:18 <planetmaker> which is why it's not done (so far)
13:06:28 <Elukka> is there any other danger to using the custom tunnel portals in multiplayer besides possibly conflicting graphics?
13:06:57 <planetmaker> no
13:07:02 <Elukka> alright
13:07:10 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker> OK - or what's the impact of saying "the hell with it" and adding a few bytes to each map tile? But I guess the number of rail types could actually eat up a lot of bits
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13:07:59 <Pinkbeast> ... let's say 4 bits of speed times 2 bits of gauge times 1 bit for 3rd rail times 1 bit for overhead times 2 bits for things I haven't thought of... hm, not _so_ much
13:08:05 <Belugas> good day
13:09:44 <planetmaker> <-- Pinkbeast. The used railtype is just a number on the tile. The rest is global to the railtype
13:09:45 <Belugas> mmh... 10 bits? why stop at 10? make it 16, it would look better :)
13:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: roughly, at a map size of 2048x2048 (current maximum), one byte per tile is 4MB
13:09:50 <planetmaker> and not stored on the tile
13:10:28 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker> er yes but the number of bits required can still be calculated like so
13:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: which is not a lot in itself, but a) there are handheld and mobile devices which should work with low map sizes, and b) if you add one byte, then another, then another two, and so on, you quickly have uncontrolled growth
13:10:54 <Pinkbeast> When I say "4 bits of speed" I don't mean "4 bits encoding the maximum speed", I mean "allow for 16 different railway speeds"
13:11:16 <Pinkbeast> It'd be up to a railtype grf how to _use_ the bits, I'm just pondering how many they might want
13:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: and which player wants to choose from a list of 256 railtypes?
13:12:04 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, the properties of a thing on the map need not be stored in the map
13:12:12 <planetmaker> but it needs to be stored an ID or so
13:12:35 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker> Yes, I understand that.
13:12:41 <planetmaker> like it suffices for the tile to know "railtype A, directions a,b and c. Signal here and there. Reserved by a train,. .."
13:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: current map has 9 bytes per tile
13:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> where houses, industries and roads currently use almost all available bits. rails have a few things free
13:13:55 <Terkhen> Pinkbeast: probably the "if you are going to extend it, extend it right" problem
13:14:18 <Pinkbeast> Eddi> A different interface would be necessary, but I can see that people might well want separate gauge operations, several speeds, 3rd and overhead rail... NuTracks is squeezed in 16, and it would be crazy to extend it a _bit_ but not be damn sure to make it big enough.
13:14:20 * norbert79 imagines how hard it have been writing down the first code which started OpenTTD or the TTDPatch
13:15:13 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, you could add twice as many railtypes by adding one single bit to the map array
13:15:14 <Terkhen> my guess is "very hard" :P
13:15:18 <Terkhen> it's always easier to follow
13:15:30 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker> That is self-evident.
13:15:50 <planetmaker> sorry, I still have the feeling you mix "map" and "object information" :-)
13:15:55 <Pinkbeast> But every orthogonal thing you might want to be true of a railtype also means twice as many, so that isn't as much as it looks like
13:16:00 <planetmaker> or what should be stored where :-)
13:16:10 <Pinkbeast> No, I really honestly understood and have always understood what you are trying to tell me.
13:16:18 <planetmaker> good :-)
13:17:43 <Pinkbeast> But when we say a tile stores "railtype A", we next need to ask "how many bits in A", and that comes down to "how many different railtypes might a new rails grf have in", and _that_ comes down to multiplying "n bits for speed times..." - for all that, yes, the map data structure doesn't specifically know that that grf is using the first n bits of A for speed.
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13:18:39 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, but for the map it totally doesn't matter how the specifics of a railtype are stored
13:18:55 <Pinkbeast> I really honestly know this.
13:19:04 <planetmaker> that's an entirely different thing... and you only need to store that N times (N= max # railtypes)
13:19:24 <planetmaker> thus the bis in a railtype is really not critical
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13:19:42 <Pinkbeast> Yes, it is - how do you calculate the likely maximum value of N?
13:20:06 <planetmaker> by the amount of bits you want to use on the map array
13:20:13 <planetmaker> to store an index
13:20:33 <planetmaker> but the the size of a railtype entry is not important for that
13:20:35 <Pinkbeast> Errrr or perhaps by working out how large N might usefully be from the point of view of new rails newgrfs?
13:21:04 <planetmaker> then you always come up with a number larger than currently feasible
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13:21:26 <Pinkbeast> Do we? I came up with "10 bits" with some pretty generous assumptions.
13:22:08 <planetmaker> in those 10 bits you included all kind of information which are part of the railtype data and have nothing to do with the number of concurrent railtypes really
13:22:46 <Pinkbeast> Like what?
13:22:56 <planetmaker> or do you really think 1000 concurrent railtypes are sensible?
13:23:12 <peter1138> who what where?
13:23:49 <Pinkbeast> Well, _yes_, although admittedly that did include 2 bits for "things I didn't think of"
13:24:24 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, that many different railtypes may be thinkable. But not concurrently
13:24:39 <planetmaker> thus 10 bits is way too much for all practical purposes
13:24:44 <Belugas> wouldn't 1000 concurent rail be summarized as one row of rails, with same props?
13:24:47 <Pinkbeast> In the original rails world, railtypes add up - if we added something to "rails, elrails, monorail, maglev", it would be +1. But in the NuTracks world, they multiply - add the possibility of 3rd rail, and you _double_ the number of possible railtypes.
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13:25:54 <Pinkbeast> Not concurrently> Well, the player is not going to build the lot. But we don't know beforehand if they're going to build narrow-gauge overhead-electrified 100kph line or not, kind of thing.
13:27:56 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, before you add more railtypes you rather have to ask different questions like "how do I distinguish them in the GUI / on the map" etc.
13:28:10 <planetmaker> Which is already an issue with 16 from my POV
13:28:36 <planetmaker> how do I handle reasonably more railtypes in the GUI is another
13:28:38 <dihedral> with the questionmark-tool?
13:28:39 <dihedral> :-D
13:29:25 <planetmaker> looking at the purchase list of games with vehicles from multiple sets - or even only a single large one - that's not optimal anymore either
13:29:33 <Pinkbeast> I don't think that's completely true - NuTracks manages to keep its tracks distinct, and one could add (for example) narrow gauge and Brunel's broad gauge with clearly distinct graphics, so we're already up to 48 railtypes... and if we're going to break out of 16 at all, let's do it right.
13:29:35 <planetmaker> Thus completely new concepts in that domain have to be found first
13:31:00 <planetmaker> there are some people who convinced me that 16 might make sense, maybe 32 as max. concurrently. I certainly don't see the need for more
13:31:16 <Pinkbeast> I agree that the rail building interface can't very well present a pulldown list of ~256 railtypes but something has to come first - no-one's going to redesign that with only 16 types.
13:31:32 <Pinkbeast> 32? OK, what do you think is surplus in my "NuTracks + narrow + broad gauge" world?
13:31:53 <Pinkbeast> Gauge differences could become very significant in multiplayer with infrastructure sharing.
13:32:24 <Terkhen> I think that, before you even think about additional railtypes, you need to rework the entire map array to something more flexible and extendable
13:32:39 <Belugas> new map array!
13:32:51 <__ln__> highly unrealistic
13:32:58 <Elukka> is a new map array something that will ever happen :P
13:33:05 <Belugas> new map arrayless
13:33:32 <Belugas> #If we all put together as a team
13:33:37 <Belugas> pull
13:33:41 <Belugas> pfffff....
13:33:43 <Terkhen> :P
13:33:54 <Pinkbeast> Well, let's not go crazy, we could just cadge all the existing free bits in the map array for rail tiles and use them for... maybe more kinds of signals actually
13:34:03 <Belugas> #And did we tell the name of the game boy?
13:34:16 <Belugas> #we call it it riding the gravy traiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin
13:37:28 <Terkhen> if we are going to need to do a big reorganization in the future anyways (bits will run out), better to do it as soon as possible instead of moving bits around again (which complicates savegame conversion code)
13:38:31 <Belugas> agreed with the sunshine man
13:41:26 <Belugas> note that a total new design might be needed, at one point. One that will include the Z dimension
13:41:55 <Pinkbeast> Well, if Simutrans can do it :-)
13:42:13 <Terkhen> urgh, yes, maybe it should take that into account too
13:42:23 <Terkhen> so scary :P
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13:42:55 <Pinkbeast> This is definitely suggestive of "tiles with something unusual have a pointer to an arbitary-size structure of unusual stuff"
13:43:32 <__ln__> Terkhen: there will never be a new map array.
13:44:18 <Terkhen> I think that a pointer per tile would make things really slow
13:44:46 <Belugas> quite scary indeed ;)
13:44:58 <planetmaker> well... I think there somewhere exists a (behold!) git repo which re-structures map
13:45:15 <Pinkbeast> Terkhen> Well, it would be null for the vast majority of tiles
13:45:25 <planetmaker> found somewhere near Hanover
13:45:25 <Belugas> a git? I only know of an old very old patch
13:45:36 <planetmaker> no, not in BS
13:45:41 <Terkhen> Pinkbeast: pointers remind me of my crazy adventures with road-train vehicle code unification
13:46:06 <Elukka> hm. is there any trick to get the game to make rivers based on a heightmap?
13:46:10 <Elukka> i recall someone talking about something like that
13:46:19 <Terkhen> adding pointers resulted in a noticeable increase in time for running the same amount of ticks, even if they were not checked
13:46:25 <Terkhen> trains had one, road vehicles another
13:46:30 <Terkhen> each vehicle checked their own pointer
13:46:32 <planetmaker> <--- there
13:46:35 <Terkhen> but following a pointer causes an overhead
13:46:51 <Terkhen> and that's quite noticeable when you are doing some operation for a huge amount of similar items
13:46:53 <planetmaker> pick the proper repo ;-)
13:47:24 <__ln__> there could be a separate thread for each tile to reduce slowness!
13:47:44 <planetmaker> hm... 4M cores :-)
13:47:48 <Terkhen> @calc 2048 * 2048
13:47:48 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: 4194304
13:47:52 <Pinkbeast> Terkhen> On the other hand, I can't see _any_ way to support arbitary z-levels without doing something like it - clearly the map array cannot be multiplied up by the number of z-levels
13:48:03 * Belugas smells problems and retreats from conversation
13:48:09 <Terkhen> hmm... you are probably right
13:48:19 <Terkhen> @calc 2048 * 2048 * 16
13:48:19 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: 67108864
13:48:21 * dihedral waves hello to Belugas
13:49:11 <Terkhen> I don't know if that repo deals with z levels, but maybe this problem has some non-obvious solution
13:49:29 <Terkhen> I have seen some of those while checking the YACD code :P
13:50:39 <Pinkbeast> Personally I think the answer is to do something really clever to tunnels which mostly fakes up z-levels but that's just me
13:50:46 <planetmaker> the new map array there iirc has indeed pointers where needed to the z-dimension
13:51:13 <Terkhen> hmm... that will need lots of profiling then :P
13:51:21 <planetmaker> based on the assumption that usually it remains 2D
13:52:58 <planetmaker> not sure anymore how well the profiling turned out
13:55:27 <Elukka> hm. if i make a scenario with firs, how badly will it break when played on a different (likely newer) firs version?
13:56:52 <__ln__> "Schweres Zugunglück nahe Bad Lausick: Ein Regionalexpress rammt an einem Bahnübergang ein Auto. Der Zug entgleist, ein Waggon kippt um. Rund 50 Menschen werden verletzt."
13:57:52 <Terkhen> Elukka: if industries or cargos are changed, badly
13:57:58 <Elukka> :/
13:58:02 <Terkhen> hmm...
13:58:11 <Terkhen> I really should stop being lazy and start working on the new scenario format
13:58:13 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> I have updated FIRS with blithe abandon. The worst things that happened were:
13:58:33 <Terkhen> Elukka: it has been stated that FIRS will not reach an stable state until 1.0.0
13:58:35 <Pinkbeast> 1) cargo chains changed so I had a giant metal-transporting operation that broke completely.
13:59:14 <Elukka> well, i'm not really concerned about saved games or existing networks
13:59:33 <Pinkbeast> 2) placeholder graphics got replaced so I ended up with a 2x1 lime kiln with a silly-looking chunk of the new graphics, which I solved by using a cutout AI company to magic-bulldoze and rebuild the industry
13:59:39 <Terkhen> yes, for saved games I usually don't update FIRS until I'm done... but it is an issue for scenarios
13:59:46 <Pinkbeast> A scenario is a saved game... #2 might definitely happen.
13:59:49 <Elukka> more what will happen if i spend fifty million hours making a huge scenario with firs beta 0.7 and then it'll break when 0.8 is out
14:00:04 <Terkhen> all issues being mentioned by Pinkbeast (and others) could happen in scenarios too
14:00:05 <Pinkbeast> And #1 might implicitly happen if your industry placements are deliberate
14:00:24 <Elukka> well it won't break existing transport networks when there aren't any :P
14:00:26 <Belugas> [09:50] <Pinkbeast> Personally I think the answer is to do something really clever to tunnels which mostly fakes up z-levels but that's just me<-- Although I came up with such a plan at one point, I'd say it's a wrong approach. If you want to do it, do it correctly, and apply it to all situations
14:00:30 <Belugas> my pesonnal opinion
14:00:32 <Terkhen> Elukka: there is a thread explaining what we plan for the new scenario format
14:00:39 <Terkhen> probably on suggestions
14:00:46 <Terkhen> with a big post by Alberth
14:00:51 <Elukka> ...well, maybe it's best to wait before i try to do this
14:01:01 <Pinkbeast> Belugas> I agree that it would be preferable to get Z-levels really right, but on the other hand it would also be preferable to pick a project which might just about be feasible for me
14:01:34 <Pinkbeast> At the moment tunnels are a bit of arbitary magic - making them a more flexible piece of arbitary magic doesn't make things any worse. :-)
14:01:57 <Terkhen> there is a lot of magic regarding tunnels
14:02:12 <Terkhen> an attempt to demagify them a bit was started some months ago, then abandoned
14:04:04 <Pinkbeast> I think they could stay just as magic, but maybe not have to be straight lines
14:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "Hannover declared loudest city in Germany"
14:09:58 <Pinkbeast> That is not an ordering of German cities it had occured to me to make
14:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "Followed by Frankfurt (M) and Nürnberg"
14:12:36 <Elukka> this ordering of german towns occurred to me (well, one of them is in austria)
14:12:37 <Elukka>
14:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "basis for the ranking was a map of all areas >55 dB(A). the ranking is disputed because it does not take into acount the number of people affected in these areas.
14:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause>
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14:28:08 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: weird train accident. apparently the car driver stopped before the crossing, got out to watch the train, and a truck driver couldn't stop and pushed the car onto the rails
14:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: if the car driver had been in the car, he'd be dead
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14:29:46 <planetmaker> morale of story: always get out of your car and watch the train, if reasonably possible. It could safe your life
14:30:16 <Elukka> whuh. industries change who they want to deliver to in YACD?
14:30:43 <Terkhen> no, but sometimes YACD fails to establish links to all possible destination types
14:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: maybe when industries get founded, the destinations get recalculated?
14:31:22 <Elukka> i waited a few months before i built anything as instructed, built a line, it operated for a short while... then the coal mine removed the steel mill i was delivering to from its list
14:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: it's random which of the available destinations gets the cargo, so you may end up with links getting 0 cargo for some period of time
14:31:46 <Elukka> yeah but it should still list the industry
14:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, that never happened to me
14:32:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but i had a small map, hardly any industries actually changed
14:33:11 <Elukka> odd
14:33:59 <planetmaker> I saw those changes, too. It's when there are many industries requesting a cargo produced by few
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14:34:20 <planetmaker> maybe it changes back... months ago I tested it :-)
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14:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 3722202011/24/3600
14:42:07 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 43081.041794
14:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 3722202011/24/3600/1024*8
14:42:36 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 336.570639015
14:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 377433525/24/3600/1024*8
14:43:03 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 34.1284654405
14:43:35 *** Guest11019 has quit IRC
14:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 384*24*3600*1024
14:45:20 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 33973862400
14:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 384*24*3600*1024/8
14:45:43 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 4246732800
14:47:13 <Elukka>
14:47:15 <Elukka> whoooooosh
14:47:18 <Elukka> kerbal space program is glorious
14:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not a prussian wagon.
14:47:41 <Eddi|zuHause> :p
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14:47:53 <Elukka> you build rockets out of parts
14:47:54 <Elukka> ha :P
14:48:08 <Elukka> not much in the way of goals yet, but you can do fun stuff
14:48:11 <Elukka> the obvious challenge is reaching orbit
14:48:12 <V453000> I fear not even my trainset could use that
14:48:15 <V453000> :d
14:49:01 <Elukka> who knew it's possible to reach a physically realistic orbit by seat-of-your-pants flying and very primitive instrumentation
14:49:33 <Elukka> it's really cool, gives a whole new intuitive feel of how rockets work in real life
14:51:20 <Eddi|zuHause> well there's a "rocket equation", which gives you the values for fuel and at which point you need a second stage
14:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> mathematically it's "not rocket science"... :)
14:52:23 <Elukka> yeah, i've dabbled with it :P
14:53:23 <Elukka>
14:53:35 <Elukka> sometimes i'm bored enough i'll model a spaceship and math up realistic specs for it
14:53:52 <Elukka> but kerbal gives this intuitive feel you can't get by just numbers
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15:04:05 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> How seriously should I take this 2GHz Dual Core spec?
15:04:46 <Eddi|zuHause> seriously enough that you should not use a computer more than 5 years old
15:04:52 <Elukka> well i think it might run on less, dunno though
15:05:03 <Pinkbeast> Well, I guess I'll give it a bash, what have I got to lose?
15:05:03 <Elukka> it'll probably freeze when things explode hilariously
15:05:15 <Elukka>
15:05:20 <Pinkbeast> I need something to do for the 3 days before Train Simulator 2012 :-)
15:05:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: portal for free. last chance today
15:05:57 <Pinkbeast> Bit late for that :-)
15:06:13 <Elukka> ah, yes, that new railworks version
15:06:49 <Pinkbeast> Producing the Osborne Effect; I haven't touched Railworks since they announced it :-)
15:07:09 <Elukka> i need to find some steam era route with plenty of scenarios to play through...
15:08:25 <Pinkbeast> When they did the half-rate DLC weekend I bought ~all the UK steam stuff, the cunning devils
15:08:58 <Pinkbeast> ... although it would be nice if the steam driving console was slightly less insane
15:09:08 <Elukka> i don't really want to pay money for a single locomotive and a couple missions
15:09:13 <Elukka> bah, real men use the actual cab controls :P
15:09:43 <Pinkbeast> I disagree, the reason being, moving them around with your mouse is sod all like actually holding the regulator
15:10:10 <Elukka> it's more like it than the console thingy, though?
15:10:14 <Pinkbeast> In particular a real driver is not actually obliged to find the controls while peering at the world through a 90% field of view at all times
15:10:30 <Elukka> true
15:11:05 <Elukka> i really wish there was more content available to the game
15:11:06 <Pinkbeast> I actually am fine with the console thingy. A real driver can operate the reverser and regulator while looking out the window; his hands know where to find them. He doesn't have to fumble around the cab.
15:11:12 <Elukka> i can't find what i want, either free or payware
15:11:38 <Elukka> i've been using it in that kind of situation too
15:11:59 <Pinkbeast> I don't mind the payware so much - at half-price some of them were 4 quid for a locomotive and half a dozen scenarios - there's probably more money down the back of my sofa.
15:12:08 <b_jonas> which game is this?
15:12:11 <Pinkbeast> Railworks
15:12:30 <Elukka> the only train sim where they know what 'optimization' means
15:12:34 <Elukka> consequently it doesn't run like crap :P
15:12:36 <Pinkbeast> It would help if the GWR hadn't put their reversers in a different place to _everyone else_ :-)
15:13:11 <Pinkbeast> It's a bit chuggy on my machine but it's eminently playable
15:13:11 <b_jonas> I think I'm just not in playing video games these days. Neither I nor my friends have much time for them so I don't hear too much news. :-)
15:13:43 <Pinkbeast> Well, it's a train driving sim, it's not as hardcore as OpenBVE, it's not as good for building a layout as Trainz, but it does what it does well
15:14:06 <Elukka> i would say it's the best for actually playing it
15:14:30 <Elukka> but, again, i do wish there was more content
15:14:34 <Rubidium> just use peter's patch for OpenTTD. Then you can drive a train in OpenTTD as well
15:14:40 <Elukka> i mean, there's plenty in the game
15:14:48 <b_jonas> I see
15:14:50 <Elukka> but there aren't as many addons as i wish there would be
15:15:14 <Pinkbeast> There is plenty but a lot of it is chugging up the side of a mountain in the US at 20mph which I regret is not an experience that changes appreciably from game to game
15:15:27 <Elukka> i want some big route with an umpteen scenarios set in... say, 60's germany
15:15:38 <Pinkbeast> The DE and UK stuff is _much_ more interesting
15:15:55 <Elukka> there doesn't seem to be much german stuff
15:15:58 <Pinkbeast> I'd really like the Class 91 but presently it doesn't have any electrified UK route
15:16:18 <Elukka> haven't found anything UK that's on par with the default bath-templecombe route either
15:16:45 <Elukka> love that route
15:17:17 <Pinkbeast> I quite like driving the Class 43 on York-Newcastle and Oxford-Paddington for all that a lot of is is "open throttle, wait"
15:17:45 <Pinkbeast> There must be 20 or so German scenarios on Hagen-Siegen and Seebergbahn, no?
15:17:58 <Elukka> i'd like something set in an era where steam locomotives were still in use
15:18:19 <Pinkbeast> Ah, right, I think there's only 2-3 German steam scenarios, indeed.
15:18:48 <Elukka> i have this nagging feeling that if more german content comes out, it won't get translated to english
15:19:20 <Elukka> bath-templecombe is really ideal to me but it's only one route
15:19:24 <Elukka> the distances are just right
15:19:38 <Pinkbeast> My German's probably up to it, but I sympathise
15:19:57 <Elukka> won't get bored driving along on straight track but it's enough to get up to speed and roll around at 70 mph a bit
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15:20:13 <Pinkbeast> I was delighted to discover the Didcot Railway Centre's in Oxford-Paddington
15:20:41 <Elukka> the only fully fledged expansion routes seem to be either modern UK or US
15:21:09 <Pinkbeast> Well, it's a hell of a lot _easier_ to draw something when you can just go and look at it. :-/
15:25:38 <Elukka> it seems my problem with any simulation game from railworks to arma is finding enough stuff to play
15:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the more detailed the models, the less you have to play with
15:30:30 <Elukka> true
15:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> or it gets impossible to pay for
15:31:35 <Belugas> i'd love to play with a model. And photography it at the sme time
15:31:56 <Belugas> but don't want to pay it...
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15:38:50 <Elukka> "Liftoff!"
15:39:03 <Elukka> "Stage 1 separation confirmed"
15:39:08 <Elukka> "Crewmember Jebediah Kerman was killed"
15:39:13 <Elukka> "Crewmember Bob Kerman was killed"
15:39:17 <Elukka> "Crewmember Bill Kerman was killed"
15:39:21 <Elukka> a typical flight, i suppose
15:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "Data from 'smart meters' can be used to detect which TV channel was viewed"
15:39:54 <Pinkbeast> Is there any way to place eg a set of radial couplers so they're all at the same height?
15:40:30 <Elukka> there's the symmetry button in the upper left
15:40:42 <Elukka> click it, you can get all sorts of exciting radial symmetry action
15:41:16 <Elukka> SRBs work the same as real life, incidentally
15:41:24 <Elukka> lots of thrust but can't be throttled or turned off until they run out of fuel
15:42:41 <Pinkbeast> What I seem to be getting is couplers symmetrically about the booster I'm adding them to, when I want to add one to each booster in the previous stage
15:43:16 <Elukka> hmm
15:43:45 <Elukka> i don't recall how that works... i think you may have to use the same symmetry to build the thing you're attaching them to?
15:44:07 <Elukka>
15:44:09 <Elukka> i built a lander once
15:44:09 <Pinkbeast> I guess it's "read their forums" time
15:44:12 <Elukka> thing was rather precarious
15:48:19 <Elukka>
15:48:24 <Elukka> nuclear rockets and kerbals, nothing could go wrong
15:54:25 <Pinkbeast> Does it usually sit and spin the CPU for half a minute betwist design and launch?
15:54:58 <Elukka> no, not usually
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16:03:29 <Pinkbeast> Note to self, more control surfaces
16:03:56 <HerzogDeXtEr> Not to self, download the newest openttd version
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16:11:30 <Elukka> once you're ready to try orbit, something like 70 km and 2.3 km/s lateral velocity should be good
16:11:43 <Elukka> 70 km altitude that is
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16:19:07 <b_jonas> wow, now I'm joined to at least one channel on six irc networks at the same time. I think that's my all time high.
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17:26:58 <appe> please, please
17:27:35 <appe> give me diagonal bridges.
17:27:50 <planetmaker> Elukka, you convinced me to release the current nightly of swedish rails as 0.7.1
17:28:00 <Elukka> :D
17:28:08 <planetmaker> get it from bananas ;-)
17:28:09 <appe>
17:28:12 <appe> crap.
17:29:09 <Ammler> I don't think, your network would look much nicer with diagonal bridges
17:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: your trains have gone AWOL
17:30:00 <appe> awol? :)
17:30:11 <appe> Ammler: it would at least be quicker.
17:30:13 <appe> :(
17:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: it's a military term, meaning "away without leave" (or so)
17:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: might have better result with tunnels
17:31:20 <appe> ah, well yes.
17:31:34 <appe> they are stopped due to maintaince
17:31:41 <appe> though
17:32:26 <appe> i think ill use it for now. ill reroute the trains to the other side of town later, extend the station and build straight tunnels.
17:32:45 <appe> that would make the track longer, but hugely less stop-n-go.
17:34:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure you can remove 2/3 of your tracks
17:34:16 <appe> jessica biel and megan fox, wearing nothing but their sox
17:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> pics or it didn't happen
17:34:54 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: that is true. i made a three track circle system instead of one, since i never got the hang on getting the 64-square trains work without lots of wait.
17:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you can reasonably well handle 3 platforms with one track, even without any insane junctions
17:36:15 <appe> :)
17:36:23 <appe> im still learning pbs :(
17:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> this has actually nothing to do with PBS
17:37:25 <blathijs> 64 square trains? Like, a train that's 64 tiles long?
17:38:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the absolute maximum nowadays
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17:43:39 <appe> kinda sucks
17:43:45 <appe> has there been a time with no limit?
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17:44:30 <V453000> why would you need longer trains ...
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17:45:22 <Pinkbeast> V453> Why have arbitary limits, crazy as 64-tile trains are?
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22948 /trunk/src/lang/ (icelandic.txt latvian.txt welsh.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: icelandic - 3 changes by baldur
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 80 changes by Parastais
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 94 changes by kazzie
17:46:55 <geheimdienst> oh great, i was looking at the screenshot in the browser and was hitting "x" to get a better look 8-)
17:46:56 <V453000> because it doesnt hurt anything?
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17:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the original limit was 5 tiles
17:50:14 <Rubidium> what's arbitrary about 64 tiles, or 128 half tiles thus 128 vehicles?
17:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> later it was 100 vehicles, which was seriously arbitrary
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18:03:32 <appe> bah, the hell with system efficiency. more tracks equals more fun.
18:03:52 <appe> einstein, carl sagan, hendel and chopin would agree
18:08:32 <Alberth> just fill every tile with track
18:09:16 <Alberth> killing the path finder in the process :p
18:09:24 <Elukka> make the entire map out of rail junctions, except occasional spaces for signals
18:09:28 <Elukka> i wonder how the pathfinder would cope
18:09:33 <Alberth> not
18:09:35 <Elukka> :D
18:10:18 <Alberth> you'd get the same behaviour as with ships
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18:28:17 <TrueBrain> *blub*
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18:30:58 <Wolf01> evenink
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18:33:17 <Alberth> evenink Wolf01, TrueBrain
18:34:02 <appe> HM
18:34:04 <appe> hm*
18:34:27 <appe> when trains are loading people, it always halts like 20 seconds at 100%.
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18:34:39 <appe> :(
18:34:44 <Alberth> train longer than the platform?
18:34:51 <Alberth> using time tables?
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18:40:13 <appe> none of it.
18:40:32 <Elukka> YACD?
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18:42:11 <Alberth> don't think that would affect timing that much
18:42:54 <Alberth> appe: when you look at the contents of the train, does it change?
18:43:17 <Alberth> ie people may be getting out and in where the total count keeps at 100%
18:44:24 <Elukka> well, YACD goes wonky for a good while every time you change anything a little bit
18:44:44 <Alberth> yeah, I stopped playing YACD for that reason
18:45:14 <Elukka> i really wish it'd work better :/
18:45:32 <Elukka> i guess it will if and when it's finished
18:46:09 <Alberth> at this rate, that will be equal to 'never' :)
18:46:58 <Elukka> :(
18:47:06 <Elukka> i'm in limbo
18:47:19 <Elukka> kinda don't wanna go back to cargodist, but don't really feel like playing YACD either
18:47:41 <Elukka> (oh yeah and nobody's made a half-recent binary of cargodist and i can't compile so i can't, anyhow)
18:49:03 <Elukka> life was good when the compile farm still worked :P
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18:50:03 <TrueBrain> tss, the CF works just fine
18:51:18 <Elukka> the latest cargodist binary it has compiled is from june
18:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause> meh... exam in two days and i know shit about the topic...
18:52:23 <TrueBrain> the fact that you are not on a bus doesnt mean the bus is not driving ;)
18:52:39 <Alberth> better spend two days doing something more fun :p
18:52:44 <TrueBrain> bit silly extrapolation: this binary is from june so the CF is not working
18:52:48 <Elukka> sounds familiar, eddi
18:53:16 <Elukka> welllll, i assumed it's at least partially not working since some binaries are not being compiled
18:53:24 <Elukka> i heard something about some sort of move back then that may have broken things
18:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "jeder wohlgeformte Satz ist wohlgeformt". err... yes...
18:53:54 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes logic is too logical...
18:55:19 <Rubidium> Elukka: what about the case when the last source of YACD is from say June?
18:55:57 <Elukka> i thought it'd compile binaries of the patch on the latest openttd nightlies
18:56:11 <Rubidium> then your thinking is wrong
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18:56:43 <Elukka> i see
18:56:46 <Rubidium> the CF builds (complete) source repositories; it doesn't apply patches
18:57:03 <Eddi|zuHause> even if the compile farm would do that, the patch would break after a week or so...
18:57:08 <appe> jesus christ
18:57:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it wouldn't make sense
18:57:15 <appe> i just made like 200 trains and forgot to share orders
18:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> happy clickfest!
18:57:37 <Elukka> hm. so you couldn't even compile cargodist on a recent openttd version?
18:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: not without at least a few merge conflicts
18:58:37 <Elukka> oh hey
18:58:59 <Elukka> turns out there are (almost) nightly cargodist patches
18:59:32 <Elukka> the latest patches are from 2 days ago but the latest binary is from months ago
19:00:41 <Elukka> are they supposed to be compiled by the compile farm? the wiki says so but it's been outdated before
19:01:08 <Rubidium> yeah, they are supposed to be compiled
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19:01:33 <Rubidium> but buildbot doesn't support multiple repositories
19:01:35 <Elukka> hmm.
19:01:51 <pjpe> what os are you on
19:02:19 <Elukka> 64 bit win7
19:02:26 <pjpe> yeah
19:02:32 <pjpe> that'd be more of a pain in the ass to compile yourself
19:02:57 <TrueBrain> download MSVC
19:02:58 <TrueBrain> hit compile
19:03:02 <TrueBrain> such a pain in the ass, yes :)
19:03:11 <pjpe> well i figured it was more work than that
19:03:27 <TrueBrain> you figured wrong :)
19:03:51 <pjpe> well alright tough guy you wanna make a big deal out of it?
19:04:25 <TrueBrain> someone is having a very short fuse today
19:04:58 <Elukka> i assume it's not the Maharashtra State Veterinary Council i need to compile :P
19:05:15 <TrueBrain> Elukka: would be very amusing to put a request in their mailbox about it
19:05:21 <Terkhen> it's quite easy to compile, you just have to follow the tutorial
19:05:24 <TrueBrain> but I suggest you start with our wiki; might help you out more :)
19:05:26 <Terkhen> and if it does not work -> complain
19:05:36 <Elukka> which tutorial?
19:05:40 <TrueBrain> a wiki in general contains those pages about information
19:05:48 <TrueBrain> one of them reads: how to compile under Windows :)
19:05:57 <Elukka> i recall the wiki pointed at what looked like an extremely convenient program called buildottd that was unfortunately outdated
19:06:08 <Terkhen> either or
19:06:10 <Alberth> TrueBrain: step 1: install linux :p
19:06:15 <TrueBrain> Alberth: :D:D:D
19:06:25 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: don't do the work for them! How do they ever learn to fish for themself?
19:06:29 <Terkhen> if you are handy with console use the second, if you prefer fancy graphics use the first one
19:06:40 <Elukka> alright, thanks
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19:07:07 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: the question caught me while eating chocolate, so of course I'm in a helpful mood :P
19:07:22 <TrueBrain> oeh, chocolate!
19:07:33 <TrueBrain> you should give some to pjpe, he can use the good mood ;)
19:07:50 <pjpe> screw that i have brownies
19:08:08 <Terkhen> then you must be in a good mood too :P
19:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause> #brownies?
19:12:20 <__ln__> if anyone is using this thing called "facebook", have you been noticing its tendency to suggest MiHaMiX as a "friend"?
19:12:48 <Elukka> so uhm
19:13:06 <Elukka> is there any hope that some day in the future, new versions of cargodist will be compiled by the famr?
19:13:08 <Elukka> *farm
19:15:28 <pjpe> no
19:15:30 <pjpe> and by no i mean yes
19:15:37 <pjpe> there's hope for anything
19:15:38 <pjpe> !
19:15:40 <pjpe> stay positive~
19:16:05 <Elukka> i think the people who work with it might have an idea :P
19:16:46 <Elukka> compiling it certainly seems a lot more work than 'download MSVC, press build'
19:17:06 <pjpe> i knew it
19:17:08 <pjpe> !
19:18:41 <Elukka> considering the guide involves downloading and configuring no less than five pieces of software, and a whole bunch of stuff afterwards
19:20:08 <Terkhen> IMO MinGW is easier, but most people is scared of consoles :P
19:20:10 <Alberth> aren't you happy you work with a Windows system, the most crappy operating system to get a compiler to work at?
19:21:04 <Rubidium> Alberth: so not true ;)
19:21:32 <Rubidium> OS/2 and DOS are much harder to get one working correctly natively
19:21:34 <Alberth> I am sure you know a dozen more crappier operating systems
19:21:59 <Elukka> i'm happy i can actually run those games and software that are the reason i have a computer
19:22:10 <Rubidium> MorphOS might be pretty tricky with a recent enough GCC for OpenTTD
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20:04:19 <appe>
20:04:27 <appe> as said, more tracks equals more awesome
20:04:56 <appe> by the formula; number of tracks times googolplex equals the number of awesome the openttd player is.
20:05:55 * Alberth does not believe that formula to be correct
20:08:40 <Terkhen> then it's quite easy to code an AI to be the most awesome player ever :P
20:09:13 <Terkhen> specially for that type of scenario
20:09:18 <Pinkbeast> Not that easy, it's got to make the money to pave the earty
20:09:20 <Pinkbeast> *earth
20:15:00 <Elukka> i talked to someone about how it's a bit of a pain to compile ottd every time you want to play a patch and he's looking into coding a program to do it automatically
20:15:04 <Elukka> guy doesn't even play the game
20:15:27 <pjpe> what do you mean each time you want to play a patch
20:15:34 <pjpe> just need to set up the compile environment once
20:15:38 <pjpe> patch and compile once per patch
20:15:39 <pjpe> and run
20:15:44 <Terkhen> it should be easy with a prepackaged MinGW, but ^
20:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> buildottd did it like that
20:16:03 <Alberth> 'coding a program' ? euhm, 2 or 3 commands with a vcs and a patch program
20:16:10 <Elukka> yeah, it's just really old
20:16:16 <Pinkbeast> I guess Elukka is in the Windows world where everything is harder
20:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno if that still works...
20:16:22 <Elukka> yes, i am
20:16:40 <Terkhen> you can make things simple too, it is just more complicated to learn how :P
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20:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> who made that anyway?
20:16:56 <Pinkbeast> Sort yourself out with MinGW compiling, it'll make it easy in the long run.
20:17:01 <Elukka> hey, alberth, it'd be really nice if 2 or 3 commands would enable the average player to install patches
20:17:10 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: yeah, you have to type strange commands in a black window :p
20:17:22 <Terkhen> Elukka: svn checkout <repo> && patch -p1 -i <patch> && ./configure && make
20:17:38 <Terkhen> of course you only need to checkout the first time :P
20:17:49 <pjpe> patching and compiling is simple
20:17:55 <pjpe> the problem is setting up a compile environment
20:17:57 <pjpe> which is more complex
20:17:59 <pjpe> and a pain in the ass
20:18:05 <pjpe> and the part that you can't streamline as well
20:18:18 <pjpe> well unless you're on linux
20:18:21 <Elukka> buildottd indeed seemed to have managed to do that before
20:18:26 <pjpe> then you just apt-get every dependency and be done with it
20:18:35 <Elukka> but it doesn't run on vista and doesn't seem to run on win7 either
20:19:07 <Alberth> Elukka: who needs windows? I use linux exclusively since 1994
20:19:40 * Terkhen needs it for games
20:19:46 <Elukka> the vast majority of all games are exclusively for windows, as are many other programs
20:19:55 <Elukka> people have different needs
20:20:00 <Elukka> if linux works for you, good for you
20:20:20 <Alberth> Terkhen: so that's why you get distracted :p
20:20:45 <Terkhen> for my current distractions you can blame Eddi :P
20:21:35 <Alberth> Elukka: pretty much anything you can do at any platform, the programs are just named differently, and work a little different
20:21:57 <glx> compiling is easy ;)
20:22:18 <Elukka> how about the games
20:22:30 <glx> wine ;)
20:22:35 <Elukka> wine isn't bulletproof
20:22:48 <glx> else dual boot
20:22:50 <pjpe> dualbooting
20:22:54 <glx> or virtualistation
20:23:11 <Elukka> i love openttd but not enough to install and learn an entire OS for its sake :D
20:23:14 <Terkhen> with wine games are slow, and you can't play 0 day releases because wine does not still support those games
20:23:18 <pjpe> imagine a world where desktop computers run virtualization operating systems
20:23:29 <pjpe> and can just on the fly run virtual machines of operating systems
20:23:31 <pjpe> as if it was native
20:23:32 <pjpe> IF ONLY
20:23:33 <Terkhen> I dual boot for games, but I don't count that as being "linux only" :P
20:23:55 <glx> anyway compiling on windows is not that hard
20:24:11 <glx> else all game devs would have problems :)
20:25:09 <Alberth> after Eclipse I am not surprised at what people put up with at all
20:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause> wine has become pretty good in the past years, even for new games
20:25:36 <Elukka> well, i would say that different things are to be expected from game developers and game players
20:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> except dx11 stuff, most things should work
20:27:06 <Terkhen> I decided to not take the risk with wine for Portal 2, I have kept dual boot since its release :P
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20:28:12 <Alberth> Terkhen: for completely separated activities, dual boot is a quite sane solution
20:29:44 <Terkhen> yes
20:29:47 <Pinkbeast> I dual boot and I expect gamers to do so...
20:30:44 <Elukka> it's certainly what i'd do if i got a sudden urge to use linux
20:32:01 <Terkhen> if you just want to test/play with it for a while you can use virtualbox
20:32:15 <Terkhen> after you decide on what you want, dual boot :)
20:33:12 <erik1984> Terkhen: It depends, sometimes the Wine implementation is just as good or better but most of the time games written for Windows run best under... Windows :P
20:34:23 <appe> i havent had this fun in ages.
20:34:37 <Terkhen> hmm... in which cases is it better?
20:35:41 <Terkhen> anyways, right now I'm having performance problems even on windows, so wine is not an option for me :P
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20:36:46 <appe> i havent yet played openttd on a computer, without decent lag.
20:37:06 <Terkhen> with what map size?
20:37:19 <appe> 2048, of course.
20:37:19 <erik1984> @Terkhen: I can't name any particular titles for which that is true but judging from comments of users. But I agree with you, it's not a serious alternative to Windows, especially not for the new DirectX stuff.
20:37:55 <appe> although, something that actually is very stressing is the map view with the vechicle-setting on
20:38:08 <Rubidium> Terkhen: I've got the feeling that IO is faster/better scheduled on Linux, so IO constrained applications might work faster under wine
20:38:13 <Terkhen> appe: with the faraonic stuff you build I guess it is to be expected :P
20:38:21 <appe> :)
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20:38:47 <Terkhen> 2048x2048 maps are big resource drainers just by themselves
20:38:53 <Terkhen> Rubidium: that makes sense
20:39:18 <Terkhen> even linux VMs are faster in many cases :P
20:39:31 <Rubidium>
20:40:06 <Terkhen> oh, that looks interesting
20:40:21 <Rubidium> it's an antique benchmark though
20:40:52 <Rubidium> but as you can see, lots of the graphicy stuff is significantly slower
20:41:45 <Rubidium> what I find interesting is that the memory test suite is up to 12% faster
20:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> in linux, alt-tabbing out of a game usually works :p
20:42:42 <Terkhen> <--- this benchmark is more recent, but it only takes into account graphics stuff
20:43:24 <Terkhen> I got games dx9 games working perfectly on wine (for example Team Fortress 2); I didn't notice any lag and I could alt-tab :P
20:43:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and whether grahpic-y stuff is slower heavily depends on the graphic driver
20:43:45 <Terkhen> of course that was using beta nvidia drivers
20:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the ati driver has a handful of oddities
20:45:05 <Terkhen> I heard about them, I have always avoided ati because of that
20:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and i have a feeling when playing Civ V, that some stuff is not done in hardware
20:48:08 <Terkhen> is it better than civ IV gameplay-wise?
20:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it's quite different
20:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the one-unit-per-tile rule makes warfare quite interesting
20:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause> was there anything bad about Civ IV gameplay?
20:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i quite enjoy both
20:49:42 * Terkhen will probably not try Civ V until a cheap version with all DLCs comes
20:49:52 <Terkhen> until then, I have lots of mods to try
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20:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have any of the DLC
20:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and downloading mods doesn't work in wine, that's quite annoying
20:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't have a bootable windows on this PC, except a virtual one
20:52:25 <Terkhen> hmmm... why not? installation is quite straightforward, and running them only needs a parameter to the civ exe file
20:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Civ V uses some "intelligent" download protocol that windows also uses for updates
20:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and apparently that isn't (correctly) implemented in wine
20:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Civ IV mods work, i played many of them
20:54:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Civ V has ingame download, so nobody offers mods for manual download
20:55:03 <planetmaker> so, civ IV works in wine, you say?
20:55:21 <planetmaker> then I should try that way of playing it :-)
20:55:33 <Rubidium> fish works with wine as well ;)
20:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Civ IV has worked in wine for ages
20:56:37 <planetmaker> I just never tried :-)
20:56:58 <planetmaker> hm... fish and wine. Yes. good choice ;-)
20:57:10 <planetmaker> Probably better than civ IV ;-)
20:57:24 <Terkhen> civ IV is probably more addictive :P
20:57:30 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: yes, I meant civ IV mods
20:57:47 <Terkhen> they come with installers but of course I'm just copy pasting them
20:58:00 <planetmaker> Terkhen: I'm not sure ;-)
20:58:11 <planetmaker> a good fish with a decent wine... hm...
20:58:24 <planetmaker> some weeks ago I prepared such meal...
20:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not that big a fan of either fish or wine that i urgently have to try that
20:58:55 <planetmaker> burger and french fries?
20:59:08 <Terkhen> that, while playing civ IV :P
20:59:13 <Prof_Frink> Beer battered cod wi' big chunky chips.
21:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood the urge to have burgers with fries either
21:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the connection between the two=
21:01:56 <pjpe> what would you rather have with burgers
21:02:20 <Eddi|zuHause> burgers work perfectly well on their own
21:02:30 <pjpe> what one burger as a whole meal?
21:02:34 <Terkhen> both are unhealthy food :P
21:02:40 <Eddi|zuHause> have a second burger?
21:02:55 <pjpe> it's like having rice with meat
21:02:57 <Terkhen> double burger
21:03:00 <pjpe> you have the main thing
21:03:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: there is no such thing as "unhealthy food"
21:03:02 <pjpe> you have the side dish
21:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: but the meat is the main thing, the bread is the side dish
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21:03:32 <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: no need for fries
21:03:32 <Terkhen> for me, unhealthy food is anything that would be unhealthy if I ate it as much as I wanted :P
21:03:36 <pjpe> bread isn't the side dish
21:03:39 <pjpe> it's the container for the meat
21:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that's where the opinions differ, apparently
21:04:36 <Wolf01> 'night
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21:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: so you rather eat food that you don't want?!
21:05:18 <Terkhen> I eat food that I want less :P
21:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> weird conclusion...
21:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the difference is the mixture, not the food itself
21:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> if you mix high-calories food like meat with high-vitamine food like vegetables, almost nothing can go wrong...
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21:12:47 * Terkhen goes for an apple instead
21:13:06 <pjpe> i'm going to get wanton soup later
21:13:08 <pjpe> no regrets
21:13:12 <pjpe> enough sodium for a week
21:14:24 * Eddi|zuHause gets Hackepeter
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21:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure about the entymology of the word
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21:16:05 <Terkhen> I googled it, looks tasty :P
21:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's basically raw meat, mangled, salted/peppered and occasionally with onions. usually served on a half bread roll
21:20:08 <pjpe> wonton soup?
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21:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Hackepeter.
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21:40:36 <Terkhen> good night
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22:01:44 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> Civ V uses some "intelligent" download protocol that windows also uses for updates <-- it uses BiTS ?
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22:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: yeah, that's the one
22:02:48 <glx> background intelligent transfer system
22:03:16 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, it doesn't work in wine
22:03:28 <glx> (redownloads updates when install fails)
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22:05:05 <glx> I don't want to count the number of times it downloaded SQL server SP on my brother's womputer
22:05:22 <glx> (and it still fails to install ;) )
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22:06:35 <glx> but we didn't try to remove all .net versions yet
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22:11:35 <Jabol> Oh God look at this.
22:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> what's so interesting about prince of bel air?
22:13:30 <Jabol> GUILE THEME.
22:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that is
22:14:14 <Jabol> Aww, shame. :<
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22:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> <-- this?
22:15:31 <Jabol> Yes
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22:15:33 <Jabol> It's a meme
22:15:40 <Jabol> You put guile theme on a video.
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22:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "Hehe, this time I totally agree with planetmaker´s post." <- ZOMG, a wonder has happened :)
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