IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-17
⏴ go to previous day
02:23:57 *** Diablo-D3 has joined #openttd
02:27:00 *** rhaeder has joined #openttd
03:23:37 *** supermop has joined #openttd
04:56:18 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
05:21:20 *** robotboy has joined #openttd
06:04:40 *** robotboy has joined #openttd
06:32:55 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
06:40:13 *** Kurimus has joined #openttd
06:43:47 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
06:51:16 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: do we need grey 4 axle coaches?
07:05:22 *** DayDreamer has joined #openttd
07:19:33 <andythenorth> model trains will not even be 1px in game
07:19:35 <andythenorth> I wouldn't bother
07:20:10 <Elukka> i do have a few, though brawa is mostly out of my price range :P
07:20:15 <Elukka> their site makes for good reference though
07:20:32 *** LordAro has joined #openttd
07:21:04 *** DayDreamer1 has joined #openttd
07:21:06 *** DayDreamer1 has left #openttd
07:21:43 <pjpe> you know they have model trains in model trains now
07:21:43 <pjpe> inside a scale model railroad
07:21:44 <pjpe> the only ones i have are my father's g scale from like 40 years ago
07:21:44 <pjpe> and i sure as hell ain't buying new ones
07:21:46 <pjpe> i'm trying to do the modelling part
07:23:17 <Elukka> not terribly many of them, though... that locomotive with its four freight wagons was almost 300 euros
07:23:38 <Elukka> i do wish they were cheaper but i guess that's what you've got with a niche hobby
07:25:01 <Elukka> you can get a bit cheaper, i just like my detail and sound :P
07:25:02 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
07:25:54 <pjpe> even if i had a job i wouldn't think of spending that
07:26:44 <pjpe> what base do you put your model railroad on
07:27:36 <Diablo-D3> heh, I just had a funny idea
07:27:41 <Diablo-D3> full sandbox mode for ottd
07:27:49 <Diablo-D3> no money, no cargo, no gameplay
07:28:00 <Diablo-D3> trains just run and you fiddle with all the tiles
07:28:12 <Elukka> didn't have the space or the skill to make it myself
07:28:26 <Elukka> the buildings i'm trying to make myself
07:28:32 <Elukka> that's some cardboard type thing
07:28:58 <pjpe> made some concrete abatements for a bridge
07:28:59 <Elukka> the window frames are matches cut in half... vertically
07:29:01 <pjpe> no idea what to put it on now
07:29:02 <Elukka> that was a bit of a bitch
07:29:06 <Diablo-D3> lookin kinda detroit there
07:30:22 <Diablo-D3> the cars look pretty good actually
07:30:30 <Diablo-D3> needs more weathering on the wheelbases though
07:30:37 <Diablo-D3> just avoid getting shit in the assembly
07:30:41 <Elukka> i weathered them with chalk
07:30:47 <Elukka> easy to wash off and redo if i mess up
07:31:39 <Elukka> i don't seem to have a good color for wheelbase gunk though
07:33:58 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: go improve your dry brush skills
07:34:34 <Diablo-D3> dry brushing watered down silver and then griming over that gives realistic abuse imo
07:34:37 <Elukka> chalk doesn't seem to take painting techniques that well and i'm scared to actually paint them
07:37:17 <peter1138> but _800x600.jpg is actually 660x600 :S
07:37:50 <Diablo-D3> peter1138: it fits in a 800x600 box ;)
07:40:53 <Rubidium> so, why isn't it called 2000x2000?
07:41:15 <Rubidium> it would fit in a 2000x2000 box as well, wouldn't it?
07:43:56 <Elukka> why are we expecting my filenames to be accurate :P
07:46:40 *** Belugas has joined #openttd
07:46:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Belugas
08:04:14 *** Cybertinus has joined #openttd
08:10:52 *** Hirundo has joined #openttd
08:11:22 *** ^Spike^ has joined #openttd
08:11:52 *** Terkhen has joined #openttd
08:11:52 *** planetmaker has joined #openttd
08:11:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Terkhen
08:11:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o planetmaker
08:12:46 *** XeryusTC has joined #openttd
08:12:52 *** V453000 has joined #openttd
08:13:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo
08:13:52 *** DJNekkid has joined #openttd
08:14:36 <LordAro> yay! its coop ping timeout time!
08:28:13 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
08:33:20 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
08:33:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
10:24:46 *** DorpsGek has joined #openttd
10:24:46 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DorpsGek
10:25:31 <MNIM> our town crazy was down?
10:28:29 <Diablo-D3> whats with that little engine
10:30:41 <andythenorth> any chance of a working time patch? :(
10:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: what do you mean "little engine"?
10:31:31 <Diablo-D3> the red boxed shaped thing with the wheels on the bottom.
10:32:03 <Alberth> LordAro: not working, I get 'internal server error'
10:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: it's perspectively shortened, it's actually one of the strongest engines the DB has
10:34:04 <MNIM> dude, are those systems actually compatible?
10:34:06 <appe> i guess this goes for cheating.
10:34:26 <Alberth> appe: you can also cheat money away
10:35:05 <appe> i dont really fancy cheating on money, though, i find it fun to experiment with speeds and grfs
10:35:13 <MNIM> eddi: isn't the taurus loc stronger?
10:35:18 <appe> for instance, instant loading+logic train+2048 map makes neat revenue
10:35:40 <MNIM> also, electric locs are generally rather tiny compared to their non-electrified counterparts
10:35:49 <Diablo-D3> Ive switched to 2cc btw
10:35:54 <Alberth> appe: how is that not cheating? :p
10:35:55 <Diablo-D3> it seems to be better designed for gameplay
10:36:07 <Diablo-D3> ie, no goddamned cabooses
10:36:23 <appe> Alberth: its not like im trying to win something with it.
10:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the DB doesn't have a lot of tauruses. and the taurus has lower TE
10:37:16 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how many people place bridges 1 height unit off the ground
10:37:40 <Diablo-D3> I mean I know its 150 feet, but it looks strange
10:37:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: you missed the lengthy discussion where everybody wanted to have cabooses in the 2ccSet? :)
10:38:10 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: WWHHHYYY
10:38:15 <Diablo-D3> I mean if the grf managed it
10:38:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: i try to have 2 height levels if possible
10:38:37 <Diablo-D3> and they're not cross compatible between grfs
10:38:44 <MNIM> oh, you mean how bridges seem rather low?
10:38:47 <Diablo-D3> if people want a caboose, then make a damned caboose grf
10:39:02 <Diablo-D3> it seems like a waste of a bridge
10:39:25 <Diablo-D3> 150 feet is a pretty high space
10:39:32 <MNIM> ottd is full of little graphical tricks
10:39:41 <appe> someone should make a grf with parameter settings for the amount of goods a cart can carry
10:39:56 <LordAro> Alberth: apparently you fix that by deleting the cookie for it
10:39:59 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: well, ottd scale is so totally fucked
10:40:10 <MNIM> totally fucked, I wouldn't say that
10:40:18 <Diablo-D3> like lots of grfs have cars less than half of a tile
10:40:27 <Diablo-D3> to simulate shorter cars in the past
10:40:31 <Diablo-D3> _they're doing it wrong_
10:40:36 <Diablo-D3> give me huge car lengths
10:40:57 <MNIM> but yeah, ottd scale is a compromise for playability vs realism
10:41:12 * andythenorth recalls a rule where swearing == kick
10:41:21 <andythenorth> compulsive swearing == kban
10:41:28 <Diablo-D3> like, engines should be entire tiles
10:41:31 <MNIM> and to be realistic - ottd isn't that realistic
10:41:41 <Diablo-D3> Im not asking for realism
10:41:41 <Alberth> LordAro: works, thanks!
10:41:44 <Diablo-D3> I juist want it to look good
10:41:44 *** planetmaker changes topic to "1.1.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only"
10:42:01 <Diablo-D3> and having tiny little graphics I can barely see isnt good
10:42:24 <MNIM> diablo, that's exactly the issue
10:42:41 <MNIM> if it were with a real scale, your trains would be hardly visible in a big city
10:42:54 <Diablo-D3> the cities would be bigger :D
10:43:08 <MNIM> everything would be far, far bigger
10:43:16 <Diablo-D3> I like where this is headed :D
10:43:23 <Diablo-D3> but yeah like, I dunno
10:43:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: fancy dropping into #develop_firs ?
10:43:28 <Alberth> LordAro: but how to explain it to you :(
10:43:29 <Diablo-D3> a lot of stuff just bugs the hell out of me
10:43:32 <Diablo-D3> and theres no way to actually fix it
10:43:37 <Diablo-D3> without turning ottd into a different game
10:43:52 <Diablo-D3> but having lengths that are less than half a tile just isnt doing it for me
10:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: any reason in particular?
10:43:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this channel is noisy
10:43:58 <MNIM> also, aircraft would be about the size of what an airport is right now
10:44:01 <Diablo-D3> the game runs on tile lengths, EVERYTHING
10:44:01 <andythenorth> I can't keep up :P
10:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: anything that can wait a week?
10:44:30 <Diablo-D3> and realistic speeds!
10:44:36 <MNIM> where 2048x2048 is the smallest you go!
10:44:37 <andythenorth> can wait a year if it has to :)
10:45:35 <Diablo-D3> well its either that or make subtile tracks and make everyone use zoom.
10:45:35 <MNIM> if you want to keep your lowest zoom as it is now to find your buses
10:45:49 <Diablo-D3> dude, I can barely find my busses as it is
10:45:54 <MNIM> at lowest zoom, your airport would span several stations
10:45:57 <Diablo-D3> this game has some serious damned issues
10:46:03 <MNIM> I mean span several screens
10:46:17 <Diablo-D3> and real airspeed :D
10:46:24 <Diablo-D3> lets just ditch airports
10:46:29 <Diablo-D3> they're largely a dumb hack anyhow
10:46:32 <appe> if i have a few hundred trains, and i wish to move them all to a new group
10:46:32 <MNIM> your railway station including access rails would span half a map
10:46:43 <MNIM> appe: do they share orders?
10:46:47 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: well the alternative
10:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> realistically sized airports! 256x256!!
10:46:54 <Elukka> <MNIM> also, electric locs are generally rather tiny compared to their non-electrified counterparts
10:46:57 <Diablo-D3> and 32bpp zoom manditory
10:47:04 <Elukka> i think european ones tend to be similar to the diesels but correspondingly more powerful
10:47:07 <Elukka> american diesels are huge though
10:47:33 <andythenorth> I am thinking of recoding popular vehicle grfs with fake intro dates, basically offsetting them over an extra 100 years
10:47:34 <MNIM> yeah, I meant as in diesel counterparts with comparable horseys
10:47:43 <andythenorth> wonder if Pikka will let me do that with NARS and UKRS
10:47:44 <Elukka> i think 3D graphics lend themselves better to realistic scale than 2D
10:47:52 <Elukka> i don't see how TTD could be realistic scale and playable at the same itm
10:47:55 <V453000> andythenorth: what is that for? :)
10:48:03 <andythenorth> because I want to play for longer
10:48:11 <Elukka> it could have better scale, though
10:48:28 <MNIM> well, if they had shared orders, you could just move one and then click 'add all shared vehicles'
10:48:29 <andythenorth> patching grfs is much easier than patching time
10:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's the worst approach for "daylength" i have ever heard
10:48:30 <planetmaker> vehicles never expire?
10:48:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's also the most likely to win
10:48:44 <Elukka> ultimately ottd's scale is still today what was ideal for 1994 gameplay and screen resolutions
10:49:01 <MNIM> it's still ideal for 2010 resolutions
10:49:02 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, graphics could be about 50% bigger imo
10:49:04 <planetmaker> or a proper daylength
10:49:16 <Diablo-D3> 1920x1200 on a 26", its kinda small
10:49:36 <MNIM> I know I still wish I had more pixels at the end of my window sometimes
10:49:37 <andythenorth> proper daylength is pretty much impossible
10:49:38 <Elukka> everything is fairly tiny and signals rely on a few scant pixels to tell you what type they are
10:50:07 <appe> MNIM: ah, ok. ill rethink the next time i make a gazillion trains
10:50:21 <Elukka> it works and you get used to it but... if it was done today, i don't think the scale would be the same
10:51:48 <MNIM> sadly, appe, such thoughts always come after you've done it, eh
10:52:09 <MNIM> but transport sims aren't that popular anymore nowadays, are they?
10:52:20 <MNIM> (mainly because no modern one exist)
10:52:35 * MNIM adds an s to one or exist
10:53:29 <andythenorth> I'd need to adjust dates in industry + house grfs
10:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there exist one or two modern transport sims, but they haven't been that big successes
10:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> check for "cities in motion"
10:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and the other one, that was supposed to be multiplayer
10:57:11 <MNIM> but as far as I know, it's nowhere near as open and versatile as ottd?
10:57:24 <Elukka> MNIM that was my first thought too
10:57:33 <Elukka> i'm curious if it has any merit for someone who already plays ottd
10:57:55 <MNIM> there's so many possibilities to explore and things to build
10:58:16 <Eddi|zuHause> OTTD had 17 years of development behind it
10:58:43 <appe> MNIM: it's funny. i have played openttd since 1948, and i find new things everyday.
10:59:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I doubt that newgrf-approach to daylength is the right solution
10:59:04 <planetmaker> (it's not, it's conceptually more flawed than all other approaches)
10:59:04 <planetmaker> if you want to play forever you can have vehicles never expire and start in 2050. Problem already solved
10:59:25 <planetmaker> simply as it cannot address the principle issue: time still would seem to progress to fast
10:59:42 <MNIM> anyway, it's lunchtime here
11:00:07 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the 'vehicles never expire' route destroys all gameplay progression
11:00:09 <planetmaker> it's ping-out time here it seems... :S
11:00:18 <MNIM> so Im not going to be supplying (un)intelligent conversation right now
11:00:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not really. Just do it yourself. It's as flexibly adjustable as one could want
11:00:36 *** Hirundo has joined #openttd
11:00:36 *** V453000 has joined #openttd
11:01:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth: and as such, the time has to be adjusted in the game
11:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like too sandbox-y gameplay, it takes the incentive out to do anything
11:01:30 <planetmaker> As otherwise there'll be a big divergance between displayed time and newgrf-supplied 'feature-time'.
11:01:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're better off using the year cheat
11:01:41 <planetmaker> Which is big nonsense to introduce
11:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of changing all newgrfs
11:01:54 <b_jonas> andythenorth: does it? you'll still want to replace to better vehicles to make your lines better
11:01:56 <andythenorth> but the newgrf route is actually viable
11:02:06 <andythenorth> whereas the others are not
11:02:13 <andythenorth> why not? it's trivial
11:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to change so many newgrfs
11:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> to make the timelines in synch
11:02:24 <b_jonas> however, I don't play with that option
11:02:39 <b_jonas> I do prefer if vehicles break down and eventually support for them is phased out
11:02:47 <b_jonas> like, when the reliability suddenly drops
11:03:07 * andythenorth is tempted to do it just to prove the point
11:03:15 <andythenorth> it's just a rebase of intro dates, it's trivial
11:03:24 <b_jonas> just make sure that there's always at least one working vehicles for everything
11:03:28 <andythenorth> the only problem is I don't have source for pikka's grfs
11:03:46 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it works for a single newgrf. But in an ugly way. It fails as soon as you use any (any!) non-andy newgrf
11:03:51 <Alberth> LordAro: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/crash.png I always start drawing pictures when I get confused. The horizontal bar are memory cells, each holding a character. Pointers p and q point to a cell, and copy characters, until the crash when they modify the yellow area
11:04:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's not a practical route without agreement from grf authors, which is the biggest problem
11:04:31 <planetmaker> which is the fundamental flaw. Not a problem, but the killer
11:05:17 <andythenorth> if intro dates were a callback...
11:05:22 <planetmaker> the approach to accept yearly running costs or so to be wrong is the MUCH less worse solution
11:05:45 <planetmaker> wrong as in "not what newgrfs tell to use for normal daylength"
11:06:16 <planetmaker> as such, there is a way along these lines. It just has to be carefully crafted
11:06:27 <planetmaker> And no-one so far had the stamina to go through the newgrf details
11:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro, Alberth: replacing \t with anything other than a single space is evil.
11:08:58 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: Sounds like a good compromise to me
11:11:02 * andythenorth considers rebasing to 0
11:11:14 <andythenorth> just treat dates as "delta from 0"
11:12:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that time really is MUCH better spent on adding a working daylength to openttd code
11:12:40 <andythenorth> my understanding was that daylength is just fundamentally blocked?
11:12:46 <LordAro> Alberth: nice picture! :)
11:12:55 <andythenorth> or at least, without a significant change in the way date calculations are handled?
11:12:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth: where does that understanding come from?
11:13:04 <andythenorth> discussions here
11:13:21 <Alberth> LordAro: yeah, my usual paper-based ones are much less nice :)
11:13:26 <planetmaker> well, of course you have to change *something* with the date... that's the point of *day*length
11:14:07 <planetmaker> the question probably is what needs adjustment and what is acceptable to change when daylength changes
11:14:46 <planetmaker> should monthly production of industries change? Should yearly running costs of vehicles change? What about purchase prices (why? why not?)
11:15:13 <planetmaker> what about the interval of recurring callbacks (256 ticks CB etc, tileloop,...)
11:15:14 <LordAro> Alberth/Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that makes sense, so just 1 space then? just noticed the the 2cc set uses tabs for alignment quite a lot
11:16:12 <planetmaker> Mostly it needs a stringent and consistent way to deal with the answers and to justify them
11:17:29 <planetmaker> one could e.g. up the daylength by 2, thus up all yearly costs by two, but simply downgrade the displayed costs
11:17:46 <planetmaker> display may work with floats ;-)
11:18:13 <planetmaker> hm, the local football team scored a goal, I guess
11:18:30 <Alberth> LordAro: for anything larger than 1 character, you need to first decide how much additional space you need at least, and allocate that. Then you need to move the loaded text to the end of the array. Then you can do the copying.
11:21:14 <Alberth> you understand why that would work?
11:21:57 <Alberth> for learning C/C++ it is quite crucial to see how memory works in relation to data and pointers
11:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: alternative is to implement handling of \t in DrawString
11:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but we just removed support for SetX
11:25:18 <planetmaker> yes... but for reading readmes... they might use \t a lot
11:25:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the conceptual approach imo is *everything* should remain same, except how long irl it takes 1 unit of time to pass
11:25:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes.
11:25:50 <andythenorth> adjusting industry production for example - would change the gameplay
11:26:00 <andythenorth> I'm only interested in keeping gameplay identical
11:26:10 <planetmaker> not adjusting means they produce daylength times more per month
11:26:27 <andythenorth> so by 'adjusting' I mean the final result
11:26:28 <planetmaker> not adjusting also means that all vehicle running costs are daylength more per month
11:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth, LordAro: but that sounds like a too little implementation detail to actually worry about.
11:27:01 <planetmaker> which then poses the question: what about purchase costs?
11:27:13 <andythenorth> everything, same as now
11:27:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but you can't keep yearly running costs and monthly production the same
11:27:42 <andythenorth> for code reasons, or conceptual reasons?
11:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker, andythenorth: my last proposal was: muliply all purchase costs by daylength, divide all displayed costs by daylength
11:27:52 <planetmaker> what is 'the same'?
11:28:01 <planetmaker> vehicles moving less per tick? or the same?
11:28:13 <andythenorth> this is the most difficult question imo
11:28:16 <planetmaker> 'keeping everything the same' needs a clearer definition
11:28:19 <MNIM> does ottd have an updated debian/buntu repository?
11:28:30 <planetmaker> as 'everything the same' means 'no change in daylength'
11:28:33 * Alberth wonders whether making a newgrf that extends availability of engines wouldn't be sufficient as an alternative for daylength
11:28:43 <MNIM> well, aside from the default ubuntu repos
11:28:56 <andythenorth> assume the newgrf-with-fake-intro-dates route *was* viable (and assume I agree it's not)
11:28:57 <Eddi|zuHause> 'keep everything the same' means: just modify the sleep()-time per tick
11:28:58 <planetmaker> just changing the ticks per day: production and running costs increase accordingly
11:29:09 <andythenorth> how would we patch the game to achieve same results as faking intro dates?
11:29:24 <planetmaker> what is 'faking intro dates'?
11:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> which is probably something that works well besides the daylength ideas
11:29:39 <planetmaker> that means that the year progresses in the same amount of ticks
11:29:43 <andythenorth> so assume I want to play twice as long
11:29:45 <planetmaker> thus time progression is NOT changed
11:29:47 <Rubidium> MNIM: just download the debian/ubuntu .debs from our server?
11:29:52 <andythenorth> so truck 1 is introduced in 1950
11:30:01 <andythenorth> currently truck 2 would be introduced in 1960
11:30:14 <andythenorth> but in my fake-intro-date-grf I introduce it in 1970
11:30:17 <Alberth> planetmaker: I don't care about the year, I just want to play longer with eg steam trains
11:30:27 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes, that's what I want, too
11:30:34 <MNIM> I know, I was just wondering if there was a repo hidden somewhere so It would just update like my Firefox upgrades
11:30:35 <planetmaker> But IMHO the displayed year should match
11:30:42 <andythenorth> well yes, ideally
11:30:46 <andythenorth> no argument there
11:30:48 <MNIM> Im lazy: I like my auto-update
11:30:50 <Rubidium> can anyone confirm that SDL + big endian platform works correctly with the 8bpp blitter?
11:30:54 <Wolf01> still talking about daylength?
11:30:54 <planetmaker> as such, personally, I don't care if monthly cargo production skyrockets or yearly running costs and yearly revenue
11:31:08 <planetmaker> they're just proportionally higher, date is fine, etc
11:31:15 <planetmaker> a day would just get more ticks and done
11:31:15 <Wolf01> if somebody would like to help me I could finish the fake dates patch
11:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: instead of changing 800 introduction years, you should just display a fake date, like Wolf01's last daylength approach
11:31:53 <andythenorth> but I thought that was conceptually stuck?
11:31:54 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but wrt introduction etc. it has to be a real date
11:32:10 <planetmaker> it simply was not finished, andythenorth
11:32:14 <planetmaker> that's a difference IMHO
11:32:15 <Alberth> planetmaker: so what's wrong with having a newgrf that extends the lifetime of the engines and/or gives me more engines at a later date?
11:32:16 *** IchGuckLive has joined #openttd
11:32:32 <planetmaker> Alberth: that's IMHO not a daylength
11:32:42 <andythenorth> I never asked for daylength :)
11:32:49 <andythenorth> I specifically didn't mention daylength
11:32:53 <planetmaker> under daylength I understand a setting where I say "time should progress more slowly"
11:33:09 <IchGuckLive> if i take the station diract to the source is this the same then the in the Range ?
11:33:14 <planetmaker> But introduction dates of vehicles doesn't change. But displayed time progression is slower
11:33:40 <MNIM> Hey Diablo-D3, you were the one who said that plane speeds were disproportional?
11:33:46 <Wolf01> Alberth, but you will be tied to one grf
11:33:47 <planetmaker> but IMHO the visual vehicle speed should now slow down to a crawl. That'd be a pain
11:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: problem is we can read between the lines :p
11:33:52 <Alberth> planetmaker: I was not considering day length, just making a certain era of engines longer available
11:33:54 <Wolf01> with the patch you can use any grf
11:33:56 <LordAro> hmm. so, forget the tabs to multiple spaces thing. question: why does IsPrintable() not return false for '\r' ?
11:34:07 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes, but that's IMHO the only purpose of daylength
11:34:09 <Alberth> Wolf01: true, that's a (huge) disadvantage
11:34:10 <andythenorth> I don't understand what is gained by daylength patch
11:34:23 <Alberth> andythenorth: all grfs work again
11:34:46 <planetmaker> just saying "steam engines in _this_ newgrf are introduced later" doesn't cut it as you have to modify ALL newgrfs to match
11:34:46 <andythenorth> my understanding of daylength is that it slows down time?
11:34:52 <planetmaker> thus it needs an openttd-side solution
11:34:54 <MNIM> Have you looked at Advanced settings -> Vehicles -> Plane speed factor, Diablo-D3?
11:34:58 <andythenorth> so production is slower, vehicle speed is slower
11:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: exactly what you asked, it spreads the availability dates of vehicles
11:35:07 <MNIM> set it to 1/1, aircraft should now fly 'real' speeds
11:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicle speed and production is the same
11:35:20 <andythenorth> I want 365.25 * n days per year :P
11:35:31 <andythenorth> which would probably come to same as daylength
11:35:35 <planetmaker> that has the issue that vehicles crawl over the screen
11:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, production was always the most disputed piece
11:35:55 <Wolf01> andythenorth, production and speed are the same, you only calculate it monthly, every 6 months, every 3 months based on the reduction factor
11:36:27 <andythenorth> so if unpatched, industry produces 96t in Feb, when patched, it also produces 96t in feb
11:36:28 <Wolf01> the fake date patch doean't affect the economy at all
11:36:43 <andythenorth> so what is it stuck on?
11:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, it produces 96*daylength
11:36:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth: vehicles moving at a pace of a snail
11:37:07 <andythenorth> why, and why, respectively?
11:37:09 <planetmaker> even the concorde, if n = 10
11:37:15 <andythenorth> you make assumptions that don't hold
11:37:26 <andythenorth> or you indicate why this isn't possible
11:37:27 <b_jonas> the problem with affecting the length of the year is that it also changes the lifetime of each vehicle you buy
11:37:29 <andythenorth> one or the other
11:37:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: production is not date-based
11:37:43 <planetmaker> it's tick-based ^
11:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: production is tick-based
11:37:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and that is one of the blockers
11:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: production happens every 256 ticks
11:38:12 <Wolf01> example: 96t production on FEB become -> 96t production on last three months
11:38:19 <b_jonas> wouldn't you still want a single train to work for only 20 or 30 years, but new types of train introduced only every 20 years?
11:39:13 <b_jonas> also, even if production is using ticks, does the station reputation and city reputation also not use dates?
11:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: actually that is backwards, 96t per month turn into 96t per week
11:39:32 <LordAro> question2: is there a better way of representing a space, other than ' ' ?
11:39:41 <andythenorth> I don't see how to solve the production issue
11:39:53 <planetmaker> change the displayed values
11:39:53 <Wolf01> I saw it from the faked date perspective
11:40:11 <planetmaker> though then it will be funny, if a wagon is fully loaded with 1.5 passengers
11:40:26 <andythenorth> it won't just be production
11:40:40 <andythenorth> there's animation counters, town production, breakdown length, servicing
11:40:46 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: just doesn't seem quite right, i would've thought there would be something like '\t'
11:40:47 <b_jonas> wouldn't it be better to just adjust the introduction years of all trains at the start of the game/
11:40:59 <b_jonas> and all other similar years that come from grfs
11:41:02 <Wolf01> animations will continue to be tick based
11:41:11 <planetmaker> yes, there's such things. They'll all have to be judged
11:41:19 <Wolf01> I just change the "periods of time"
11:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: space is not a special character
11:41:20 <planetmaker> But that doesn't make it 'impossible'.
11:41:34 <b_jonas> including the introduction year of oil towers
11:41:38 <andythenorth> accepting the 'wrong' year issue seems like a relatively small problem compared to rewriting most of the game's time handling
11:41:49 <andythenorth> hence the appeal of fake-intro-date-newgrfs
11:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: but maybe '\x20' or something
11:42:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but it's the wrong place. it makes things terribly inconsistent all over the place
11:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: but that doesn't make any sense to use
11:42:41 <planetmaker> just because 'it can be hacked around by newgrfs' doesn't make it the proper solution
11:42:55 <planetmaker> as you need to hack EVERY newgrf
11:42:58 <planetmaker> for a single game
11:43:24 <andythenorth> but you can see the appeal?
11:43:27 <planetmaker> or houses won't match trains won't match ships won't match industries
11:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, i only see the disadvantages
11:43:52 <planetmaker> as doing it for all newgrfs I need for a single game is more work than doing it roughly in OpenTTD
11:44:02 <Wolf01> or just create another property which works for all the compatible grfs and they set the intro dates accordingly to the option which does absolutely nothing for the standard grfs
11:44:18 <Wolf01> just a value in the options
11:44:18 <b_jonas> hey, I'm not saying it should be done by newgrfs
11:44:33 <b_jonas> but by an option in advanced settings that changes all those years when it loads grfs
11:44:51 <planetmaker> that's an openttd-solution which is way better than the newgrf-solution
11:44:57 <planetmaker> as it automatically works for all
11:45:06 <planetmaker> and that might make sense
11:45:19 <planetmaker> you just add on top a fake year display and you're done
11:45:31 <planetmaker> except the many rough edges ;-)
11:45:35 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: fine. just seems wrong, like using ' ' (thats supposed to be a tab btw)
11:45:46 <andythenorth> we have to find *all* the rough edges :(
11:45:52 <andythenorth> however, I'm prepared to help test :)
11:45:56 *** erik1984 has joined #openttd
11:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: differnce is that \t is a "not-displayable" character (<0x20)
11:46:14 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: its not that plane speeds are disproportional
11:46:17 <Diablo-D3> its that their existence is
11:46:30 <andythenorth> (discussing gameplay not implementation)....time should roughly scale with map size
11:46:33 <Diablo-D3> much much much smaller in scale than everything else
11:46:50 <andythenorth> in original ttd, if anything, there was too long between vehicle upgrades
11:47:24 <planetmaker> should it? I don't think there's a relation between the two ;-)
11:47:31 <andythenorth> well on a big map there's more to do
11:47:35 <planetmaker> but that doesn't matter, if they can be freely adjustable
11:47:36 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: they dont fit
11:47:46 <MNIM> well yeah, a jumbojet the size of a single tile containing as many passengers as a whole train
11:47:46 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: all the other broken scales could be legitimately fixed
11:48:11 <MNIM> diablo: you build the 3d engine needed to properly do that?
11:48:13 <Diablo-D3> like, honestly, make industries and city buildings 2x bigger
11:48:21 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: several already exist
11:48:29 <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: what's gained by this work?
11:48:39 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: its more fun
11:49:00 <MNIM> none of them as versatile and complicated as ottd. also, most of 'em aren't to schale either.
11:49:10 <Alberth> Diablo-D3: and an airport about 1000x100 tiles ?
11:49:20 <Diablo-D3> it looks like Im playing final fantasy train edition.
11:49:25 <Diablo-D3> Alberth: yeah thats the problem
11:49:30 <Diablo-D3> I'd rather just get rid of planes
11:49:33 <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: is the issue you can't see the pixels?
11:49:39 <andythenorth> or that you want realism?
11:49:51 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: its a tad hard to see sometimes, yes
11:49:56 <andythenorth> that's a valid issue
11:50:24 <Diablo-D3> train/truck scale mismatch is okay though
11:50:26 <andythenorth> realism is not a valid issue
11:50:32 <Diablo-D3> this game isnt real at all
11:50:33 <Wolf01> my target was to have day length and game speed adjustable, so you can also play with standard day length and reduced speed (good to have all under control in some situations like modifying a junction/signalling or to shunt stuck trains) or play at the fastest speed with huge day length
11:50:35 <Diablo-D3> no one pretends it to be
11:50:43 <Diablo-D3> andythenorth: the obsessiveness with train car size is bad too
11:50:51 <Diablo-D3> no train car size should ever be below half a tile
11:51:06 <Diablo-D3> like, one of the grfs I had loaded had like 1/10th of a tile
11:51:14 <planetmaker> Wolf01: why don't you finish one first (preferably vehicles moving the same)?
11:51:22 <Diablo-D3> you cant even see the cars
11:51:32 <appe> is there a maglev grf with bigger carts?
11:51:41 <Wolf01> lack of knowledge, code style, and will :P
11:51:45 <Diablo-D3> I mean if they want that, make gigantic multi-tile stuff
11:51:49 <andythenorth> Wolf01: does the patch work at all?
11:51:58 <Wolf01> yes, the fake dates work
11:52:00 <Diablo-D3> sure it turns into some bizzaro narrow width model train
11:52:16 <Diablo-D3> but at least it looks usable
11:52:23 <planetmaker> yes it worked. And when it was about to get the fine-tuning it was abandoned :-(
11:52:24 <andythenorth> Wolf01: will it work with savegames from trunk ottd?
11:52:30 <planetmaker> when all people got excited
11:53:13 <Wolf01> it should, but the faked date will be initialised from the year you start
11:53:39 <andythenorth> it's in the dev forums?
11:53:49 <Wolf01> as I remember, yes, it is
11:53:56 <planetmaker> half a year(?) or so back
11:54:12 *** TWerkhoven has joined #openttd
11:56:22 <andythenorth> it won't apply with my usual method
11:57:27 <andythenorth> Elukka: that one's just a box :)
11:57:43 <appe> anyone of you use the logic trainset regulary?
11:57:46 <andythenorth> so I have to figure out svn diffs...
11:57:52 <Elukka> i could do that once i get the 4 axle coaches done
11:57:57 <Elukka> which i would but i'm playing games :P
11:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it's almost a wagon with pantographs on top. just the transformator in the front is slightly irregular
11:58:20 <appe> it has a maximum speed of >60.000km/h. with one cart or more it's less then 11.000. can i use a setting to max it anyway?
11:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: that's the relativistic effect
11:59:26 <andythenorth> so how do I apply an svn diff to a hg repo?
11:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> 60.000km/h is 0.2*c
11:59:42 <Alberth> patch -p0 < file.patch
12:00:18 <appe> uhm, Eddi|zuHause 60.000km/*s* is 0.2*c, afaik.
12:00:24 <andythenorth> hunks fail with -p0
12:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause> small rounding error :p
12:01:02 <andythenorth> Hunk #2 FAILED at 147.
12:01:03 <andythenorth> 1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file src/statusbar_gui.cpp.rej
12:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then the patch is outdated
12:01:37 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: i would not like my 6500 tonne train to de-rail in 0.2c.
12:01:44 <appe> that would be planet splitting in action
12:01:54 <b_jonas> isn't speed of light higher in openttd?
12:01:56 <Wolf01> it's very outdated r21872 or r22157
12:02:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: normally, the revision is mentioned in the header of a file
12:03:56 <appe> a realistic way to determine the speed of light in the openttd universe would be to calculate how many calculations the cpu can handle with the speed-button on, and then putting that number in the <maximum speed>-parameter
12:04:19 <appe> would be neat to have a 6kilotonne train do terraflops of kilometers an hour
12:04:46 <appe> "so, how's openttd going for you?" "-yeah, it's neat. im doing 1.6terraparsecs at the moment".
12:05:53 <andythenorth> why won't that patch?
12:06:28 <andythenorth> SetDParam(0, MAX_YEAR * DAYS_IN_YEAR);
12:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds wrong
12:07:42 <andythenorth> l let me check I didn't misunderstand
12:08:45 <andythenorth> trunk seems to have that
12:09:06 <andythenorth> statusbar_gui.cpp
12:12:14 * Alberth guesses in size calculation
12:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: problem with that is that it results in "31st Dec 5000000", but "30th Dec 5000000" is potentially longer
12:14:39 <andythenorth> what should I do?
12:15:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd probably add a margin
12:15:22 <andythenorth> all I want to do is apply wolf's patch :(
12:15:23 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's even worse ;)
12:15:39 <Rubidium> @calco 5000000/4/365
12:15:44 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 3424.65753425
12:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: oh, right ;)
12:16:02 <Rubidium> it's somewhere in 4999990
12:16:04 <DorpsGek> JVassie: Error: float division
12:18:00 <Wolf01> andythenorth, try with my patch and not the updated one
12:18:23 <Wolf01> but then you have to update it by yourself :P
12:18:37 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 5000000*0.2425
12:18:37 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1212500
12:19:48 <andythenorth> how about a patch that uses the date cheat to rewind the year at year end
12:20:02 <andythenorth> count++ every year end
12:20:09 <andythenorth> if count >= n, count = 0
12:20:33 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
12:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you have longer leap years ;)
12:21:18 <andythenorth> and vehicles become available, then become unavailable again briefly
12:21:28 <andythenorth> bit like real life when production problems prevent shipping
12:21:52 <andythenorth> make 'n' an advanced setting
12:22:11 <andythenorth> everything else works as normal
12:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "count++%=n" is probably evil :p
12:22:42 <andythenorth> anyone want to code it for amusement?
12:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd guess it's undefined there whether that results in 0 or n
12:24:11 <Alberth> count++ is not an lvalue :)
12:24:48 <glx> but indeed that can't work
12:27:32 <andythenorth> if (count<n) { year = current_year -1; count = 0 } else { count++ }
12:28:14 <andythenorth> if (count<n) { year = current_year -1; count ++ } else { count =0 }
12:29:52 *** DayDreamer has joined #openttd
12:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/date_cheat.diff (concept, doesn't compile, does not have saveload support)
12:36:40 <Eddi|zuHause> should be better now
12:37:00 <andythenorth> 'garbage in the patch input'
12:37:06 <andythenorth> we solved that once before...
12:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you should always do that
12:38:00 <andythenorth> fails to compile :)
12:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> replace YEAR_COUNT with a random number of your choice
12:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's kinda useless then :p
12:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 is "original behaviour"
12:40:20 * andythenorth wants a faster compiler
12:40:47 <andythenorth> it takes over a minute
12:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone ever noticed that when you change it so MAX_YEAR==ORIGINAL_END_YEAR, the year-loop doesn't work?
12:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause> should remove the "else" in that section of code
12:42:56 <MNIM> Im currently cheating myself a mountain range and a coastal line lined with fjords
12:43:29 <Eddi|zuHause> bah... *should not fiddle with code*
12:43:33 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: works
12:43:44 * andythenorth contends that's the least broken date/time patch so far
12:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's so many things broken with that...
12:44:27 <andythenorth> vehicle introductions, money
12:44:36 <andythenorth> graphics that change by date
12:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause> year 2050 is broken
12:44:47 <andythenorth> I'm going to use it anyway
12:44:48 <Eddi|zuHause> saveload is broken
12:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the year count is lost on saveload
12:45:26 <andythenorth> not worth worrying about
12:45:35 <andythenorth> this is a fool's patch anyway :)
12:45:40 <andythenorth> it's clearly a wrong route
12:45:45 <andythenorth> yet it achieves the result I want
12:57:27 <andythenorth> patching FIRS station ratings was a very good move. The result is fun
12:57:36 <andythenorth> although I now have an RV problem :P
12:59:43 <Terkhen> are you testing egrvts2? :)
13:07:34 * andythenorth suggests pipelines
13:11:01 <Alberth> auto-add money to your bank account every day
13:27:29 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
13:38:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you should finish the year cheat patch and ship it in trunk :D :P
13:42:34 <Terkhen> what patch? replay the same year forever?
13:42:48 * LordAro always enjoys reading mb's bug reports/feature requests :)
13:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: for a fixed number of times
13:43:14 <andythenorth> replay the same year for n
13:43:55 * andythenorth has a very fickle reason for wanting roadtypes
13:44:03 <andythenorth> option for trams without catenary
13:44:15 <andythenorth> then add more industrial narrow gauge to HEQS
13:45:49 <Terkhen> just drop them into normal trams too :P
13:47:43 <Terkhen> the sprites are too small to notice those things, let them all use the same track :P
13:48:59 <andythenorth> I notice catenary :)
13:49:10 <Terkhen> remove it for all trams
13:49:24 <andythenorth> Terkhen: they would all use the same track
13:49:31 <Terkhen> it's suboptimal, but... :)
13:49:35 <andythenorth> it's just same as rail vs elrail
13:49:46 <andythenorth> I've played with catenary off for a bit
13:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember one of my first appearances in this channel was "i can't get elrail.grf to work"
13:51:47 <Rubidium> I guess it doesn't work again ;)
13:52:02 <andythenorth> farms at one end of river
13:52:06 <andythenorth> grain mill at other
13:52:23 <JVassie> play with the traffic?
13:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> flatten the landscape and build massive maglev network!
13:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> about these river docks...
13:54:04 <andythenorth> I just spent all my money prospecting :(
13:56:23 <appe> i have a small signal issue
13:56:44 <appe> three tracks, three trains
13:57:00 <appe> i want them to choose the nearest free station
13:57:22 <appe> one of the three on the right
13:58:02 <appe> when using the system as displayed on the picture, they rarely choose en empty station
13:58:11 <appe> mostly, they just wait behind each other
13:58:34 <JVassie> which version of (o)ttd(p) you using?
13:58:47 <andythenorth> remind me why cargo can't be round-robined to industries when a station overlaps more than one accepting industry?
13:59:17 <JVassie> This document was successfully checked as HTML5!
13:59:17 <JVassie> Result: Passed, 1 warning(s)
13:59:29 <JVassie> read that link appe :)
14:00:56 <JVassie> path signals would be best
14:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because nobody implemented it
14:11:26 <andythenorth> has anybody else tried a FIRS game with the station ratings patch?
14:11:26 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
14:11:45 <Terkhen> I'm starting a 0.7.0 beta game now
14:12:32 <andythenorth> if anything, the ratings are a little too generous
14:12:53 <andythenorth> also, it might be useful to implement a decay after n years
14:13:11 <andythenorth> currently I have 900t cargo waiting at a station I served by accident about 50 years ago
14:13:34 <Diablo-D3> I wish I could turn off supply altogether
14:13:46 <appe> hm, i have a 64-square station, and 64-square trains filling up. how come it stays at the station (with 100% loaded) for 30-40 seconds?
14:14:03 <Diablo-D3> just click like "do not take coal" and it disables coal delivery, dumps the coal off the station, and removes the coal rating
14:16:55 <Terkhen> appe: my guess is that those huge sizes are messing with the pathfinder
14:17:14 <Terkhen> the train has 64 possible ways of getting to the station :P
14:19:17 <Alberth> do you use time tables?
14:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just drop the rating to 0 after 2 years of nothing picked up?
14:27:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: something like that yes
14:27:54 <andythenorth> Maybe Yexo has an opinion - as he coded it?
14:31:47 <Terkhen> after 10 minutes playing I find something to code
14:31:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that feeling :p
14:32:34 <andythenorth> after 5 mins of playing, I find something for someone else to code :P
14:33:13 <andythenorth> someone did draggable roadstops
14:33:38 <Terkhen> they have been in for long :P
14:34:12 <Eddi|zuHause> was that one of Wolf01's patches?
14:34:26 <Terkhen> one of my favourites :P
14:34:50 <Eddi|zuHause> sloped road stations are still not in.
14:35:01 <Terkhen> the patch was not finished IIRC
14:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: looks like an obiwan in text height calculation
14:35:54 * Terkhen tries different font sizes
14:36:33 <planetmaker> what exactly in that screeny, Terkhen?
14:36:50 <Terkhen> black lines in the water, a result of dragging the ship window around
14:36:56 <Terkhen> the long letters cause them
14:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: black dots leftover from dragging the window
14:37:13 <planetmaker> oh, I didn't see them :-)
14:37:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: that was a frequent sight back when lines were not cropped on length
14:37:53 <Rubidium> Terkhen: does it happen with the original font as well? Otherwise the OpenGFX font is just a pixel too high
14:38:14 <Terkhen> my guess is that it does not happen with either sprite font, let's see
14:38:25 <Terkhen> with bigger fonts it is even more visible
14:40:00 <Terkhen> yes, opengfx and ttdoriginal are clean of this problem
14:42:42 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest10651
14:42:42 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
14:42:42 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth
15:05:48 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
15:17:02 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
15:23:33 *** supermop has joined #openttd
15:25:32 *** erik1984 has joined #openttd
15:28:31 <Eddi|zuHause> "Steam - downloading Portal (73%)" man... that takes forever...
15:35:48 <Diablo-D3> you can only beat it so many times before you start speed running it by accident
16:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so, planetmaker, your roads swallow cars nowadays?
16:13:48 <planetmaker> well... spice worms are everywhere, you know
16:14:18 <planetmaker> but he's on a diet. No devestator. Just a small buggy...
16:36:03 <andythenorth> I figure FIRS could use another destination for Metal
16:36:14 <andythenorth> Metal -> Building Materials could be valid
16:36:44 <andythenorth> currently the destinations are Foundry (Goods, Man. Supplies), and Machine Shop (Farm Supplies, Eng. Supplies)
16:36:58 <andythenorth> and the Forge, which is only valid before about 1870
16:42:30 <planetmaker> milk maybe could go to shops
16:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> car factory accepting metal and man. supplies, or only man. supplies
16:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> remove goods from foundry then
16:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (i suggested that before)
16:48:13 <Eddi|zuHause> foundry: metal -> msup, bdmt; car factory: msup -> good
16:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (msup representing metal parts, plastic, glass)
16:51:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: a car factory is planned for at least one economy, yes
16:52:14 <andythenorth> as lots of sets have car transporters, perhaps it's a good idea
16:54:06 <Alberth> finally I can take my car with me when going on holiday to a luxurious resort
16:54:38 <Wolf01> somebody invented real-life-zip?
16:55:32 * Alberth wishes that, in RL I don't have such a car :p
17:33:24 <b_jonas> so you can buy trucks in car factories cheaper?
17:34:24 <planetmaker> I would expect trucks are produced in truck factories while car factories build cars ;-)
17:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so at night it's colder than outside?
17:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "Dunkel wars, der Mond schien helle"
17:36:41 <planetmaker> "als ein Auto blitzeschnelle, langsam um die Ecke bog"
17:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "Schneebedeckt die grüne Flur"
17:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "als ein Auto blitzeschnelle"
17:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> "langsam um die Ecke fuhr"
17:38:10 <planetmaker> "Drinnen saßen stehend Leute"
17:38:24 <planetmaker> "schweigend ins Gespräch vertieft"
17:38:48 <planetmaker> "als ein totgeschossener Hase"
17:38:57 <planetmaker> "auf der Sandbank Schlitschuh lief"
17:44:30 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22940 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt slovak.txt):
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 29 changes by Parastais
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovak - 160 changes by klingacik
18:01:13 * andythenorth considers having foundry produce building materials instead of goods
18:01:17 <andythenorth> and introducing a factory
18:01:22 <andythenorth> but maybe a car plant is best
18:01:48 <andythenorth> I suppose increasing the number of cargos is out of the question?
18:02:22 *** bandersnatch has joined #openttd
18:05:02 <b_jonas> I actually think the default mediterranian industry tree in openttd is well designed, and don't want to switch.
18:05:15 <b_jonas> but then, it's best if you experiment
18:07:38 <andythenorth> I want to add an Auto Parts cargo, but I'm out of slots
18:08:04 <andythenorth> let me know when that's done :P
18:08:47 <andythenorth> I have one spare, but that's needed for regearing by NARS 2
18:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> screw NARS 2. regearing cargo is a totally wrong concept
18:12:51 <andythenorth> but I'm playing a game with it at the moment
18:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> implement livery refits without an actual cargo
18:13:16 <andythenorth> maybe locomotives should get another 16 special slots
18:13:25 <andythenorth> like persistent storage
18:13:38 <andythenorth> someone would think up some evil :/
18:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "cargo subtype" is pretty much "persistent storage"
18:14:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and you have animation frame as well
18:14:09 <andythenorth> yeah, but it needs a cargo
18:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is exactly the problem
18:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be extended so you don't need a cargo
18:15:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there's an old thread in the newgrf technical forum about "views" for vehicles
18:17:22 <andythenorth> so I should add the Auto Parts cargo?
18:17:31 <andythenorth> that's really it then for FIRS, 32 cargos defined
18:17:57 <andythenorth> might need a bit of discussion first
18:18:54 <Diablo-D3> wtf is cargo regearing anyhow?
18:19:21 <V453000> play NARS, see for yourself
18:19:41 <Diablo-D3> infact I dumped nars and ukrs
18:19:56 <Diablo-D3> the only thing I saw was some vehicles said they didnt carry gears.
18:20:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking the following. rubber plantation -> chemicals.
18:20:56 <andythenorth> chemicals -> tyre factory -> auto parts
18:21:23 <V453000> andythenorth: some further cargoes for FIRS? :o
18:21:30 <andythenorth> might be a bad idea
18:21:33 <andythenorth> feel free to stamp on it
18:21:43 <andythenorth> possible manufacturing supplies does the same when analysed
18:21:59 <Diablo-D3> I think I accidently made the game not fun
18:23:00 <V453000> andythenorth: is there any version to test, or are there no new industry types since r2081?
18:23:29 <andythenorth> V453000: I'd have to check repo
18:23:38 <andythenorth> there are new industries since 0.6.4
18:23:39 <V453000> dont bother, I was just wondering
18:23:48 <V453000> oh :) then I might be quite interested :p
18:24:11 <andythenorth> there are 4 new, and some changes
18:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think manufacturing supplies should be enough
18:24:46 <andythenorth> I really want a tyre plant :P
18:25:18 <andythenorth> and a rubber plantation
18:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause> rubber plantation -> chemical plant -> manufacturing supplies
18:25:23 <andythenorth> although both are possible :)
18:26:05 <V453000> when is 0.7 expected?
18:26:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the current 'plastics plant' could be renamed
18:26:39 <andythenorth> V453000: there's a beta now, forums / bundle server only
18:26:40 <Diablo-D3> you know what the problem with the game is, really?
18:26:46 <Diablo-D3> its impossible to make a profitable route now
18:26:49 <andythenorth> how do I block someone?
18:26:51 <Diablo-D3> and Im not sure what I did
18:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> block from what?
18:27:20 <Eddi|zuHause> /ignore Diablo-D3
18:27:21 <andythenorth> V453000: there might not be a bananas release of 0.7.x due to ottd compatibility; we might go straight to 0.8.0
18:27:24 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: hurrr.
18:27:49 <Diablo-D3> Seriously, its really damned difficult to make a profitable route with the settings Im using
18:28:15 <V453000> andythenorth: sorry, I was just in folder firs.nml :D
18:28:57 <V453000> needless questions :P
18:29:15 <V453000> btw I just completed all my wagons today with full support of FIRS :P
18:29:54 <Diablo-D3> Im actually wondering of ECS is just screwed
18:30:37 <Diablo-D3> due to really tiny industry limits, basically once a route is profitable, the route wont accept more cargo
18:30:50 <Diablo-D3> and it takes a few chains of shit to dump cargo off completely
18:32:11 <andythenorth> V453000: the recycling plant produces randomised output cargos (decided when it constructs)
18:32:36 <SpComb> those are timezone-dependent!
18:32:45 <V453000> hmm, so what are the additional cargoes? recyclables, and some other?
18:32:59 <V453000> I have alcohol involved
18:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i can't link to lines from that page
18:33:13 <andythenorth> V453000 just one extra cargo
18:33:17 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: yes you can, it's just kind of... hidden
18:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: and then just put the timezone into the link
18:33:26 <George> Diablo-D3: Pleas provide detailed feedback. What exectly do you suggest. Saying "is just screwed" is not much profitable
18:33:33 <SpComb> mouse-hover on the left of the timestamp
18:33:49 <V453000> guess I have something to draw then :P
18:34:05 <Diablo-D3> George: Im not suggesting anything
18:34:11 <Diablo-D3> Im just wondering if ECS just isnt fun
18:34:12 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: that's _really_ hidden
18:34:24 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: once upon a time you could hover over the timestamp
18:34:35 <George> You are not wondering. You are saing you impression
18:34:50 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: perhaps.. :)
18:35:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but the line i was actually searching for isn't in my logs, so i can't properly grep for it...
18:35:36 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: I have 15 registered users with 23 registered hostmasks; 3 owners and 0 admins.
18:35:39 <Diablo-D3> George: well, if, say, ten train trips fill an industry
18:35:46 <Diablo-D3> George: and the industry wont process fast enough
18:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, not wat i was searching fore...
18:36:32 <George> ten train trips fill an industry <- show a savegame ;)
18:36:40 <Diablo-D3> George: I know I can turn off stockpile limits, but ECS wasnt meant to be played that way
18:36:51 <Diablo-D3> George: I had trains that did like 900 tons of coal per trip
18:37:04 <Diablo-D3> and the limit was like 8000 tons
18:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i think your search is broken
18:37:30 <George> If you you are as V453000 played ECS in 2010 last time, that does not mean nothing has changed since then ;)
18:38:05 <Diablo-D3> V453000: what did you od
18:39:29 <SpComb> hmm... and the calendar year dropdown apparently stops at 2009
18:40:14 <andythenorth> V453000 new industries for 0.7.x are hardware store, recycling depot, recycling plant, hotel
18:41:16 <V453000> yeah, I saw, but no other cargoes than recyclables, right?
18:42:44 <V453000> (I am drawing a special wagon for each cargo, so I need to know if there are any extra cargoes)
18:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you should definitely prepare a wagon that catches all cargos that are not known yet at the time of writing the grf
18:45:22 <V453000> I just want to have many covered
18:45:33 <andythenorth> V453000: no other new cargos. And recyclables can use scrap metal sprite, or covered wagons
18:45:48 <V453000> andythenorth: duh. new wagon :P
18:45:50 <Diablo-D3> you know, FIRS looks like a better setup
18:46:02 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
18:46:25 <andythenorth> Diablo-D3: they're just different
18:46:43 <Diablo-D3> I never said they were ==
18:47:25 *** zachanima has joined #openttd
18:47:34 <Diablo-D3> its just that it seems to be too difficult to serve an entire vector from start to finish
18:47:42 <Diablo-D3> and if you dont, you cant offload cargo
18:47:49 *** zachanima has joined #openttd
18:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're throwing around the phrase "too difficult" too lightly
18:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> just that you don't manage it after half an hour doesn't mean it's "too difficult"
18:52:22 <Diablo-D3> dont get me wrong, I think its an interesting game mechanic
18:52:25 <Diablo-D3> its just very unbalanced
18:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> then make clear improvements
18:53:05 <Diablo-D3> not sure if its possible.
18:53:32 <Rubidium> yeah, lets make everything balanced perfectly
18:57:12 <Rubidium> e.g. lets let a day be roughly 800 trillion periods of radiation of caesium 133 ;)
18:58:20 <andythenorth> Rubidium: more helpfully, could you 'balance' rivers to sometimes be two tiles wide?
18:58:38 <Alberth> I was more thinking to have always the same starting map so it can be optimally balanced
18:58:46 <andythenorth> remove the random seed
18:59:03 <andythenorth> ideally everything would also already be built
18:59:19 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: and no, I had a company going for several hours and just decided it wasnt fun to play it anymore
19:00:04 <andythenorth> someone should make a better ship grf
19:00:05 <Alberth> Diablo-D3: it is ok to stop playing before reaching the year 5000000
19:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth, Rubidium: wrt. 2-tile rivers, how about counting the number of merges: 0-1 merge: 1 tile, 2-4 merges: 2 tiles, 5-8 merges: 3 tiles, etc.
19:00:47 <andythenorth> that's an interesting idea
19:00:57 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: did already think about that during development, but deemed it too tricky to implement
19:01:00 * andythenorth was wondering how to do deltas
19:01:05 <andythenorth> and estuaries and such
19:03:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt the date hack .... I wonder how long it would take to be noticed if we shipped it? :P
19:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you and whose commit rights?
19:04:42 <andythenorth> someone with a sense of adventure + humour?
19:05:36 *** Hyronymus has joined #openttd
19:05:48 <Alberth> good luck finding such a dev :D
19:07:39 <Alberth> such things are a good way to ensure that was your last commit
19:08:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it would take less than 24h to be noticed
19:08:26 <planetmaker> I'm quite convinced of that
19:08:42 <peter1138> what's the largest giant screenshot anyone's ever created?
19:09:05 <DorpsGek> __ln__: anyone was last seen in #openttd 36 weeks, 3 days, 2 hours, 41 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: <anyone> hi
19:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: open-able in any program? :)
19:09:46 <SpComb> I've done bigger than 512x512, but not for any actual game
19:11:31 * andythenorth needs more hp-per-ton
19:11:51 <andythenorth> my z-trains are too slow
19:12:02 <SpComb> (as in, and actually used those giant screenshot .pngs for something)
19:14:58 <SpComb> don't think it broke 2GB, though
19:21:57 <MNIM> Peter: I accidentally did that once on a big map.
19:22:12 <MNIM> I didn't have enough ram to open it afterwards.
19:22:35 <MNIM> sadly, it got lost in a linux reinstall, but I think it was bigger than 2GB
19:26:34 <andythenorth> why do I always have so many ships?
19:27:08 <Alberth> lots of water in the map?
19:27:19 <planetmaker> I guess if money was no issue for me, I might be on a ship right now ;-)
19:29:53 *** Xrufuian has joined #openttd
19:30:26 <MNIM> yeah, high capacity does help
19:30:49 <MNIM> having several 800-soul ferries to relieve your rail network traffic between to big cities is nice
19:32:42 <Hinrik> how do I know which aircraft require large airports to avoid crashes?
19:33:15 <Hinrik> I started in 1970 and I can build a bunch of huge aircraft but only a small airport
19:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Hinrik: look at the list on the wiki
19:33:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Hinrik: or use a newgrf that tells you
19:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Hinrik: larger airports are available at the dropdown list
19:34:24 <Hinrik> Small is available, and Commuter is greyed out
19:34:37 <Eddi|zuHause> City is the first large one
19:36:03 <planetmaker> is the ttdpatch.grf anywhere in a repo or can be built from one?
19:36:47 <Rubidium> planetmaker: if tt-forums.net is a repo, then yes ;(
19:37:20 <planetmaker> well, I expected it to be part of the ttdpatch repo. But I don't find it there.
19:44:37 *** LordAro has joined #openttd
19:49:53 <andythenorth> if I configure hotkeys, will they persist stably?
19:50:02 <andythenorth> as the rest of my config doesn't ;)
19:50:14 <planetmaker> the config persists
19:50:24 <planetmaker> you just only should configure it when openttd is not running
19:50:37 <planetmaker> as it'll overwrite changes when you close it
19:50:42 <andythenorth> hotkeys? Or everything?
19:51:05 <planetmaker> I'd not count on the hotkey file not being re-written
19:51:22 <planetmaker> (even when it currently probably wouldn't make sense)
19:52:04 <planetmaker> but when ingame config of keys will be added, it would behave the same as the openttd.cfg: rewrite upon exit with currently active settings
19:52:14 <planetmaker> thus: it's very persistent, both files
19:55:10 <appe> hm, something is wrong here
19:55:19 <appe> im going to make a long track cross a 2048 map
19:56:27 <appe> i create a new view window in the right corner. i then move my main view to the left corner. if i use the magic bulldozer from inside the view window, i can in one click bulldoze a line trough the whole map
19:56:37 <appe> though, it only seems to work ..from time to time.
19:57:57 <appe> i made sure i had the magic bulldozer.
19:58:16 <planetmaker> terraforming limit enabled?
19:58:31 <Alberth> wouldn't a flat map not be much easier?
19:59:04 <Alberth> or a less insane length be much more fun?
19:59:17 <planetmaker> learnt to use ctrl+s :-)
20:00:59 <appe> Alberth: it's a flat map.
20:01:23 <appe> im trying to bulldoze my way trough the cities and industries
20:01:26 * planetmaker wonders though... the existing 12 tracks are not used. Does it really need more?
20:01:57 * andythenorth needs more river ships now
20:03:12 <planetmaker> bah, did the author not anticipate rivers and ocean and river speed fraction?
20:03:20 <planetmaker> We should bash him then...
20:03:39 <planetmaker> with pink cotton balls
20:04:42 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
20:38:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22941 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix: Calculate the size of the start/stop vehicle button correctly.
20:44:34 *** zachanima has joined #openttd
20:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: you sure it's wise to add a magic number?
20:49:41 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: grep for SetMinimalTextLines(1, WD_FRAMERECT_TOP + WD_FRAMERECT_BOTTOM + 2)
20:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: all the more reason :)
20:50:02 <Terkhen> it should be fixed somehow, but for fixes I prefer to do a small patch that can be backported more easily
20:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> also it's probably code smell that the function is called so often with the same arguments
20:52:39 <Terkhen> yes, there is no disagreement there :)
20:56:55 <planetmaker> the quick and back-portable and the lengthy and proper way ;-)
20:57:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i understood that now
21:19:54 *** bokalHdC has joined #openttd
21:22:02 <bokalHdC> I tried recently OpenTTD on the HP Touchpad, and if the person responsible for the port is in the room, I'd like to thank him/her
21:23:07 <bokalHdC> I lost a few days of productivity, but it was great :)
21:24:07 <appe> openttd on ipad would be nice.
21:24:56 <bokalHdC> it is true fantastic, yes!
21:25:06 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: that's not in our power
21:25:33 <bokalHdC> apple doesn't like free software much
21:26:00 <Terkhen> what OS does that use?
21:26:34 <bokalHdC> webos, which is... a linux flavor
21:27:05 <bokalHdC> most of the OS is free software
21:27:34 <bokalHdC> linux, pulseaudio, gstreamer, ipkg, and much more
21:27:53 <bokalHdC> only the UI part is closed source
21:28:31 <bokalHdC> the only thing not working with the port yet, is the network.
21:28:44 <bokalHdC> it means no multiplayer, of course
21:28:53 <Eddi|zuHause> bokalHdC: if you actually encounter the person doing the port, please ask him to report back so we can include his changes into the main repository
21:29:08 <bokalHdC> because I can't download them
21:29:35 <bokalHdC> oh, ok... you were not aware of it?
21:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you can add AIs manually, but it's kinda cumbersome
21:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> get the files from binaries.openttd.org/bananas
21:30:26 <bokalHdC> Eddi|zuHause, thanks!
21:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> bokalHdC: we heard of the port, but no details wrt what actually changed
21:32:07 <bokalHdC> any AI that you recommend?
21:40:04 <Hinrik> is there no way to merge two non-AI companies in multiplayer?
21:40:27 <Hinrik> e.g. if we decide we want to do co-op
21:47:43 <bokalHdC> Eddi|zuHause, I just wrote the author of the port asking to report back.
21:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> why does "official secrets act" sound like an oxymoron?
22:48:39 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
23:08:23 *** ProfFrink has joined #openttd
23:14:25 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
23:54:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "Fukushima is proof that nuclear engergy is secure"
continue to next day ⏵
