IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-18
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01:13:30 <Hinrik> the caption for that image talks about an "upper" and a "lower" station, but the two stations are level
01:13:36 <Hinrik> there's just left and right
01:13:42 <Hinrik> which one is using path signals?
01:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause> better exchange "upper" for "left"
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06:46:30 <Elukka> pixels, pixels everywhere
06:47:11 <andythenorth> you're really drawing that many angles :O
06:47:19 <andythenorth> this isn't rendered?
06:47:55 <Elukka> i considered it but it seemed like it'd be more work for such low res sprites
06:51:16 <Elukka> don't planepeople have even more angles to do?
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06:59:23 * andythenorth needs more boats
07:02:07 <Elukka> so you've done about fifty million sprites
07:02:08 <andythenorth> bigger boats look silly in canals + rivers
07:02:11 <Elukka> how fast do you pump them out?
07:02:34 <andythenorth> my advice: drop the vehicles, do a building set :/
07:02:34 <Elukka> i wanted to try to make one car per day but couldn't
07:02:42 <andythenorth> buildings have one angle
07:03:33 <Elukka> i started drawing sprites... a bit less than 2 weeks ago
07:03:37 <Elukka> and i have a grand total of 2 decent ones
07:03:43 <andythenorth> they look fine btw
07:05:50 <Elukka> i've mucked about drawing things but never really done pixel art before
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07:37:15 <andythenorth> airports: annoyink
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07:47:11 * andythenorth needs more docks
07:47:35 <andythenorth> smaller catchment areas
07:47:41 <andythenorth> for delivering supplies to farms
07:48:47 <Elukka> andy, do you also have the thing with firs and yacd where if you, say, add a train to a route it'll be all messed up for something like a year, or even forever unless you make them skip an order?
07:49:05 <Elukka> like, i have a train going between two industries, add another, and now the old train refuses to load anything
07:49:06 <LordAro> andythenorth: do it yourself :P
07:49:32 <andythenorth> Elukka: that's a known issue with yacd I think
07:49:43 <Elukka> how do you deal with it?
07:49:43 <andythenorth> sometimes you have to make the train run the route end-to-end
07:49:54 <andythenorth> so skip basically
07:50:31 <Elukka> the palette doesn't have a dark enough green
07:50:36 <Elukka> now i have to make everything a step brighter
07:51:05 <Elukka> which looks too bright...
07:52:11 <planetmaker> use a brown instead of a dark green
07:52:21 <andythenorth> Elukka: if you want to achieve TTD style, there are two tricks you need to combine
07:52:28 <andythenorth> 1. the contrast is high
07:52:42 <andythenorth> 2. but where two high-contrast areas meet, you need to anti-alias
07:53:08 <planetmaker> 3. Look how Irwe or andythenorth draw their sprites
07:54:51 <Elukka> doesn't look right to replace it with a brown
07:55:08 <planetmaker> Might happen. An olive?
07:55:45 <andythenorth> sometimes you need to use a colour that initial logic tells you is 'wrong'
07:56:03 <Elukka> better, but still obvious it's not the right color
07:56:12 <andythenorth> tbh, it's much easier if you use company colour :P
07:56:40 <Elukka> i could just color the dark side the same as the side view
07:56:44 <Elukka> think anyone will notice? :P
07:57:05 <Elukka> best compromise i can think of
07:57:05 <andythenorth> which direction are you lighting from?
07:57:16 <andythenorth> I'll save you time now
07:57:24 <andythenorth> there are incorrect tutorials
07:57:38 <Elukka> everything is from the upper right!
07:57:45 <andythenorth> lighting varies in original sprites, but average is about 5.30 on the clock face
07:57:47 <planetmaker> andy's light-direction quest? :-)
07:57:57 <andythenorth> "saving people pain"
07:57:57 <planetmaker> (he's right, though)
07:58:12 <andythenorth> if light was in the upper right, all angles would always be in shadow to the player
07:58:24 <Elukka> hmm yeah that's actually how i draw
07:58:36 <Elukka> i dunno why i said upper right
07:59:48 <andythenorth> most of the palette has hues with light/dark ranges of about 8
07:59:57 <andythenorth> I'd pick near the middle for the _ view
08:00:03 <andythenorth> then go either side for \ / views
08:00:15 <Elukka> what i've been doing is- yeah exactly that
08:00:28 <andythenorth> in which case, I have no further advice :P
08:00:29 <Elukka> base color for the side view, one step lighter or darker for the diagonals
08:01:04 <andythenorth> it's worth getting the roof right, the roofs are prominent
08:01:12 <andythenorth> and when you have one, you can copy and paste it a lot
08:02:12 <Elukka> the roof's basically the same color in all directions, just the shading goes on the different edge on the other diagonal?
08:02:15 <Elukka> i butchered that sentence
08:02:45 <Elukka> i'm a fan of the almost flat prussian coach roofs, incidentally
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08:40:40 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: do you know if those white fogged out windows are toilets, and if so should they only be on one side?
08:43:03 <Elukka> how should we help you?
08:43:46 <MercedesBenz> I need a Russian version
08:44:02 <Elukka> i do think one exists, but i don't know much more about it
08:44:16 <Rubidium> Russian version of what?
08:44:19 <Diablo-D3> didnt there use to be some sort of grey mining pit industry?
08:44:57 <MercedesBenz> Russian version openttd 1.1.3
08:45:15 <Rubidium> MercedesBenz: just select the Russian translation in game
08:45:25 <Elukka> diablo, in the default industries?
08:45:36 <Diablo-D3> it was an addon, but I dont know who has it
08:45:49 <Diablo-D3> I havent checked firs yes
08:45:59 <Diablo-D3> also, why doesnt firs have a list of industries it has somewhere?
08:46:04 <Diablo-D3> like the big flowchart ecs has
08:46:19 <Elukka> because that's now in game :P
08:46:27 <Elukka> click the... was it industry chain button on any industry
08:46:44 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: yeah but like the flow chart ecs has pictures of industries and everything
08:47:32 <Diablo-D3> that page was exactly what I wanted I think
08:48:23 <MercedesBenz> not start a game. error Open sfx
08:49:12 <Diablo-D3> MercedesBenz: you have to install opensfx first.
08:49:35 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: firs doesnt have it
08:49:41 <Rubidium> sounds like you copied an installation to another computer, but didn't completely copy it
08:49:51 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: its all gray, and is built into the side of a hill
08:50:00 <Elukka> ah, pikka bird's brick chain i believe
08:52:51 <Diablo-D3> why does no one else use it?
08:53:45 <Elukka> wellll, i moved to firs
08:53:50 <Diablo-D3> its a really unique graphic, it should be retained
08:54:09 <Elukka> i like how it's built to a hill but i'm not sure the sprite fits the game that well
08:54:16 <MercedesBenz> how to install opensfx?
08:54:22 <Diablo-D3> MercedesBenz: read the website
08:54:24 <Yexo> MercedesBenz: are you using windows?
08:55:17 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: even if the sprite doesnt perfectly fit (lets face it, grfed up ottd is a mismatched set at best), no other industry looks like this
08:55:53 <Diablo-D3> and industries should strive to be bigger
08:57:33 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, ottd industry size sorta feeds into the whole massive scale mismatch
08:58:48 <Diablo-D3> I dunno, I just want really gigantic trains to be usable and look correct in some semblance of a default ottd setup
08:59:03 <Diablo-D3> its not about realism, its just having gigantic trains is fun.
09:01:01 <peter1138> that graphic fits very well if you ask me
09:01:38 <Diablo-D3> yeah but like, put a 28 tile train anywhere near an industry
09:01:51 <Diablo-D3> it completely dwarfs the industry
09:01:53 <Elukka> i think there's something about the style of the rock
09:02:07 <MercedesBenz> I downloaded: opengfx-0.3.5-all.zip, openmsx-0.3.1-all.zip, opensfx-0.2.3-all.zip. How do I install them?
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09:02:13 <Elukka> it looks like it'd be more at home with 32bpp graphics (which is actually somewhat of an achievement to manage using 8bpp)
09:02:30 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: still, I'd like to see it in firs just due to its uniqueness
09:02:35 <Diablo-D3> too many industries look like buildings
09:05:17 <MercedesBenz> Yexo, I downloaded: opengfx-0.3.5-all.zip, openmsx-0.3.1-all.zip, opensfx-0.2.3-all.zip. How do I install them?
09:05:52 <Yexo> search for "openttd.cfg", that is the configuration file
09:06:08 <Yexo> (most likely it's in "My Documents\OpenTTD"
09:07:42 <Yexo> in that directory should also be a data\ directory, extract opengfx and opensfx there. Extract openmsc in the gm\ directory
09:14:31 <MercedesBenz> Yexo, Thank you! works
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09:24:00 <MercedesBenz> saved game to version 1.0.0 can be opened in version 1.1.3?
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09:26:54 * Diablo-D3 tries 2cc, av8, egrvts, firs, fish, heqs, industrial stations renewal, long vehicles, nutracks, smooth snow transition, snow aware arctic buildings, snow line mod, total town replacement, total bridge renewal set, and bigger train depot
09:28:09 <peter1138> just add everything
09:34:29 <MercedesBenz> does not appear in the saved version 1.0.1 version 1.1.3
09:34:48 <MercedesBenz> can not open in the saved version 1.0.1 version 1.1.3
09:36:54 <Terkhen> a savegame can be only opened by an equal or newer major version
09:37:09 <Terkhen> you can open 1.0.x savegames with 1.0.x and 1.1.x, but not the other way around
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09:38:23 <Yexo> MercedesBenz: if you downloaded openttd from another side than openttd.org your "version 1.0.1" was maybe not the officail 1.0.1 but a modified version
09:38:36 <Yexo> in that case you won't be able to open your savegames with any other than the original version
09:39:24 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: "- Add basic tiles for FIRS Clay Pit and Quarry (unfinished, not happy with graphics)"
09:39:29 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: from CHIPS changelog
09:39:38 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: is FIRS adding it?
09:39:52 <Yexo> MercedesBenz: start a new game in 1.1.3 or find the original version you used and keep playing with that
09:40:28 <Elukka> that just means CHIPS added station tiles corresponding to FIRS quarry graphics
09:40:47 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but firs clay pit?
09:40:50 <Diablo-D3> when did it get a clay pit?
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09:41:23 <Diablo-D3> it looks like the sand pit
09:42:50 <Alberth> a sand mine does look a lot like a clay mine as well :p
09:43:10 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but I want that graphic from pikka bricks
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09:45:15 <Alberth> so make your own industry set
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09:48:26 * Alberth is very much not impressed
09:50:57 <Diablo-D3> although I wonder how hard it is to add more industries to firs through another grf
09:50:59 <Diablo-D3> its probably a bad idea
09:52:16 <MercedesBenz> this error: NOT_REACHED triggered at line 1453 of .. \ src \ strings.cpp
09:52:38 <Alberth> Diablo-D3: you run out of cargo types
09:53:20 <Elukka> diablo, i feel that your desire for huge industries and a huge amount of industry types would result in a game where half of all terrain is industries :P
09:53:47 <Alberth> it already is, try dense industries :p
09:54:15 <Diablo-D3> I see no problem with this.
09:54:18 <Yexo> MercedesBenz: when did that happen?
09:55:09 <MercedesBenz> Yexo, when load saved to another version
09:56:26 <MercedesBenz> there is a file: Crash
09:57:03 <Yexo> please open a bug report at bugs.openttd.org and upload crash.cmp, crash.sav, crash.log there. Don't forget to also include your original savegame
09:57:46 <Alberth> Looks like a missing case in GetSpecialNameString, although the line number is not correct w.r.t current trunk
09:58:01 <Yexo> Alberth: that's indeed the line
09:58:07 <Yexo> line number is correct for 1.1.3
10:00:24 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: well, its either that, or we can use REALLY TINY TRAINS
10:00:37 <Diablo-D3> use like ultra tiny cars that are really bunches of cars
10:00:46 <Diablo-D3> so you buy 3 or 5 or whatever at a time
10:02:13 <Diablo-D3> thats not that bad of an idea
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10:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: do you know if those white fogged out windows are toilets, and if so should they only be on one side? <-- i believe compartment coaches had toilets on both sides (one for each adjacent compartment)
10:16:35 <erik1984> Hi openttd people. Is anyone of you also playing ottd on Ubuntu 11.04?
10:18:16 <Alberth> I am not, but why is that special?
10:18:25 <Alberth> ie just ask what you want to know
10:19:22 <Alberth> LordAro: using a somewhat saner development platform now?
10:20:36 <Diablo-D3> erik1984: no, Im on deb sid
10:20:39 <LordAro> i always use ubuntu for developing, just that i usually have to communicate through windows
10:21:16 <Alberth> I thought you used mingW stuff, but luckily you don't
10:21:17 <Rubidium> Alberth: pff... you needs lots of power for development, so what is better than Debian on a s390 mainframe for development?
10:21:46 <Alberth> Rubidium: not much, but my basement is not so big :)
10:22:16 <Alberth> idea for our new compile farm?
10:22:18 <Diablo-D3> Yexo, Elukka: I just had a funny idea
10:22:44 <LordAro> Alberth: if i am stuck on windoze, i do (if i have to) use mingw - but for aroai stuff, not the more complex ottd stuff
10:22:55 <Diablo-D3> Yexo, Elukka: you build stations, and they automatically expand new non-track tiles as the station grows
10:24:11 <Alberth> LordAro: ah, you're an expert at noth systems thus :p
10:24:22 <Elukka> damn, i have too much brown on the 2nd/3rd class variant
10:24:35 <Elukka> or did that vary too :P
10:25:04 <Diablo-D3> Yexo, Elukka: so like you have a pax rail station, and then it starts building those fake parking lot tiles and stuff
10:26:01 <Elukka> seems to me like it'd be difficult to code a system where it builds those in a pattern that looks good in every situation
10:26:41 <Alberth> Diablo-D3: it's normally not useful to spam other people with your ideas, they will not jump on it and implement it for you
10:27:04 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: maybe, but it'd be interesting to have automatic crawl
10:27:38 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: it'd be easier if we had >1x1 train tiles
10:27:52 <Diablo-D3> so you could plop down a large building that is part of the station
10:28:31 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: like, in the pax idea, a parking garage.
10:29:41 <Alberth> when at first it does not work, add another layer of complexity :)
10:30:01 <Diablo-D3> its not really that complex
10:30:07 <Diablo-D3> the game already has multitile buildings
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10:30:56 <Alberth> general ideas and visions are trivial. Making it really work is the challenge
10:32:11 <Diablo-D3> Alberth: I'll tell you what I tell every other project that tries to recruit me
10:32:16 <Diablo-D3> I cant be everywhere at once.
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10:32:50 <Diablo-D3> and honestly openttd is too political to delve into
10:34:38 <LordAro> Alberth: i believe the readme patch is 'ready', should i make a flyspray entry for it?
10:35:39 <erik1984> LordAro: You are using the Unity inteface? I'm asking because the window behaviour of openttd is a bit strange. if it runs in a small (not maximised) Window everything is fine. But when maximizing there is a second window title bar while it should integrate with the top panel like other applications.
10:35:59 <Alberth> Diablo-D3: I am not trying to recruit you, but talking "oh this is nice, and it is easy to implement" is just bullshit. So either prove it is easy, or stop dumping random ideas
10:36:16 <Alberth> LordAro: sounds like a good plan to me
10:37:26 <Rubidium> erik1984: if OpenTTD misbehaves with its title bar, then it's rather SDL that is misbehaving
10:38:17 <LordAro> erik1984: afraid not, my computer isn't powerful enough :)
10:38:26 <LordAro> Alberth: great! doing so now
10:39:21 <LordAro> actually, there is still the TrimWhitespace() function that needs dealing with - it actually only checks the beginning and end of the char, not each individual line
10:40:25 <Alberth> I still believe it is not needed :) Me or another dev will look into it
10:40:46 <Elukka> doesn't openttd's license allow one to make their own branch and disregard the 'politics' and visions of current devs
10:41:05 <erik1984> Rubudium: I'll check if it's a common SDL issue, thanks.
10:42:45 <Alberth> Elukka: sure it does. Also, I don't understand what politics we are doing other than having a vision about the project, just like any project
10:43:09 <Elukka> yeah, so diablo, you're free to code whatever
10:43:51 <Rubidium> most people with a "huge" vision claim to do lots of stuff, but eventually nothing happens
10:43:52 <Alberth> and you are free to use the tt-forums.net forums, and a copy of our sources for it. Several people do that, look in the development forum
10:44:16 <Rubidium> otherwise there would've been at least a C# and Java implementation of OpenTTD for years
10:44:35 <Alberth> and several 3D version of openttd :)
10:44:51 <Rubidium> and 32 bits graphics
10:45:26 <Rubidium> a better (ship) pathfinder
10:46:17 <Alberth> oh, the large document by Sir Xavius :)
10:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean OpenTTD 500+?
10:51:08 <Alberth> I don't remember the name, but could be
10:51:54 <Alberth> would be nice as a climate
10:55:32 <Yexo> erik1984: I can confirm your problem with the menu bar, but I haven't yet looked into what could be causing it nor do I know if there is a solution
10:59:32 <peter1138> second window title bar? that sounds like absolutely nothing that ottd can control
10:59:55 <LordAro> Alberth: flyspray task is up
11:01:15 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: looks like openlomo :p
11:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: as far as i understand it, those are models for some flight simulator
11:02:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: only if you misuse the term "in die Luft fliegen" :)
11:02:52 <Alberth> quite detailed for a flight simulator though
11:07:42 <Elukka> hm. that looks just like the passenger one except it has less windows
11:08:01 <Elukka> and the roof ridge is higher but i'm not sure how visible that'd be
11:09:35 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: model railways? nice pictures
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11:11:16 <Elukka> did the other variants
11:11:33 <Elukka> always liked the brown/green color scheme
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11:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the white toilet windows should only be 1 pixel, also they should be in the middle of the brown section
11:14:45 <Elukka> guess i could change that
11:15:03 <Elukka> will end up with 1 px wide normal windows though
11:15:15 <Elukka> along with the 2 px ones
11:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you can manage this: 1px window, 1px door, 1px window, 1px green
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11:16:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (=4px for one compartment)
11:18:14 <Elukka> i think the 2x2 px windows stand for both the door window and the two small side ones
11:18:25 <Elukka> with 1 px windows there's either way too many compartments or the windows are too sparse
11:21:49 <Elukka> hm. i think 1 px toilets do look better, it's not really that noticeable that there's a 1 px normal window next to it
11:26:17 <peter1138> why so much excess blue?
11:27:30 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: since technically on the diagonals the toilets would now be half a pixel, do you think it'd be a good idea to sort of blend them in and make them a lighter blue instead of white?
11:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: possibly, but relatively bright
11:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but the 3rd class toilets should still be in the middle of the brown section
11:39:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the blending works well
11:45:20 <Elukka> hmm yeah gonna move them around
11:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... university seems to have some computer troubles...
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12:00:22 <appe> bah, clicking links in this channel..
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12:16:59 <andythenorth> with a truck set, is it necessary to have a progression of ever more powerful, faster truck *models* ?
12:17:26 <andythenorth> for fun gameplay?
12:18:30 <Elukka> you mean do they have to get better with time?
12:19:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: slower but more reliable might make sense, wouldn't it?
12:19:28 <andythenorth> mostly trucks are mostly the same
12:19:39 <andythenorth> even capacities haven't changed that much - except by law
12:20:00 <andythenorth> by 'faster' I mean 'more able to maintain legal maximum speed due to more hp'
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12:36:48 <MNIM> I would argue they'd be maximizing the hauling ability : running costs ratio
12:37:23 <MNIM> EG - same capacity at the limit, same speed and comparable HP but lower running costs.
12:37:24 <appe> isnt there a running costs ratio?
12:38:16 <Elukka> unfortunately in OTTD that's less vital
12:38:35 <Elukka> real companies never reach the point where they have essentially infinite cash and a company can crash no matter how large it is
12:38:41 <appe> actually, i have a rather silly complaint
12:38:54 <appe> it does feel trucks and busses doesnt really get any attention
12:40:34 <Elukka> well, with YACD or cargodist busses are vital
12:41:09 <Elukka> and 2cc or another high running costs train set provides a niche for LV4 trucks since they're rather good
12:41:23 <Elukka> though i do wish there was an alternative set with similar capabilities
12:41:34 <Elukka> nothing wrong with LV4 but variety is always good
12:41:58 <Elukka> andythenorth: are you making a road vehicle set besides HEQS? :P
12:42:09 <andythenorth> Elukka: no but maybe
12:42:33 <andythenorth> I want a good plan before I start
12:42:37 <andythenorth> currently I don't have the plan
12:43:30 <Elukka> i suggest running cost parameters
12:43:37 <Elukka> actually i suggest those for HEQS too
12:43:42 <Elukka> or does it have one already?
12:44:04 <andythenorth> they're not a great idea
12:44:11 <andythenorth> but they're the best we can do currently :(
12:44:36 <Elukka> road vehicle balance is so dependent on the balancing of whatever train set you happen to be using
12:44:41 <andythenorth> Terkhen: how far did you get with rv-wagons? Did you find the scope of the work to be done?
12:49:11 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: i think the windows in your modification look triangular, as if narrowing upwards
12:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, i'm not that big of an artist
12:56:17 <Elukka> the general texturing i tried to make consistent with the grey coach (based on oberhümer's modification), since the details are basically similar
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12:57:27 * andythenorth ponders patching docks for smaller catchments
12:57:51 * peter1138 ponders patching docks for multistop
12:58:09 * Eddi|zuHause ponders not patching anything
12:58:10 <andythenorth> I thought we didn't discuss that anymore :o
12:58:18 <andythenorth> you patch it, I'll test
12:58:22 <andythenorth> goes for Eddi|zuHause too
12:58:29 <Elukka> gonna change the toilets on all the variants anyway
12:58:33 <andythenorth> if you don't patch, I won't test
12:59:01 <andythenorth> I have three adjacent farms, I need to deliver supplies by ship
12:59:20 <andythenorth> any dock on this peninsula will cover all of them :/
13:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it's always delivered to the one closest to the station sign
13:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so it doesn't matter if they overlap
13:04:40 <Elukka> due to all the variants this file now has 12 layers :P
13:06:39 <MNIM> holy... apparently these bad boys do 130kmh D:
13:07:55 * MNIM demands this be made in ottd nao. >>
13:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: it's not really a problem of getting things up to that speed. usually laws prevent you from going that fast, because in "normal" traffic you can't brake fast enough
13:08:34 <Elukka> unrelated interesting locomotive
13:09:17 <MNIM> braking ain't the problem. enough wheels on the tarmac
13:09:57 <Eddi|zuHause> in case you have missed the physics lesson on friction: the amound of wheels is irrelevant for braking
13:10:37 <MNIM> Im not talking about friction.
13:11:04 <MNIM> Im talking about the fact that /each/ and /every/ wheel has brakes
13:11:28 <MNIM> and those brakes together absorb just as much energy per ton as an ordinary truck
13:11:45 <MNIM> it's the part where you have only one engine that is the kicker
13:11:53 <Alberth> and we say we don't waste energy and care for the environment :p
13:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: so then, please explain to me why an ICE3 train takes 4km to brake, even though it has so many wheels?
13:13:01 <MNIM> because it's not moving a hundred, it's mocing 200+
13:13:27 <peter1138> also metal-on-metal
13:13:32 <MNIM> and steel wheels on steel tracks provide less friction than rubber on asphalt, thus the brakes can absorb less
13:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: even at 100km/h, an ICE3 train doesn't take <100m to brake
13:14:39 <MNIM> as peter and I said, steel on steel
13:14:49 <MNIM> also, less wheels per ton
13:14:51 <Markk> Magnetic rail brakes can be used as well.
13:15:43 <Hinrik> it's a shame that almost every openttd video on youtube uses pop music instead of the awesome game music
13:16:10 <andythenorth> is braking effort effectively the inverse of tractive effort?
13:16:20 <Elukka> i like my link better :P
13:16:23 <andythenorth> inverse isn't the word I want :P
13:16:58 <peter1138> is braking effort still related to engine power in ottd? :s
13:18:41 <andythenorth> braking is a factor of adhesion?
13:18:59 <andythenorth> and adhesion is a factor of weight and coeffecient of friction?
13:21:19 <peter1138> you want a new newgrf property?
13:22:35 <Elukka> it'd be cool if trains had to brake before a station or stop rather than pretty much stopping instantly
13:23:24 <Pinkbeast> Errr trains do brake slowly at stations
13:23:58 <andythenorth> I don't want a new newgrf property
13:24:02 <andythenorth> I want a physics lesson :)
13:24:43 <andythenorth> I want multistop docks
13:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> is braking effort effectively the inverse of tractive effort? <-- difference is that even unpowered wagons may be braked
13:25:05 <andythenorth> also. multi-stop docks will really break my play style
13:25:08 <andythenorth> which will be interesting
13:25:30 <Pinkbeast> Braking might or might not be limited by adhesion - it is on trains, not (for example) on bicycles on tarmac
13:26:12 <Pinkbeast> Sure - you'll lift the back wheel on a bike before the front wheel skids, if you've got a normal tyre.
13:26:22 <Pinkbeast> So braking's limited by that.
13:26:34 <andythenorth> isn't that adhesion?
13:26:59 <Pinkbeast> No. There _is_ an adhesion limit, the point at which the front tyre would skid - but you can't get there.
13:27:17 <Elukka> that truck doesn't look very inconspicuous :P
13:27:34 <peter1138> you tend to end up sideways before that
13:29:17 <Pinkbeast> andy> I would describe that limit as being based on geometry, inasmuch as the limit is a function of the angle described by the triangle made up of a line between the CoG and the front contact patch, and a line made up of the ground.
13:29:52 <Pinkbeast> This is what made penny-farthings dangerous - that angle's large, because the CoG is practically above the contact patch, and so you can't brake much at all without taking a "header".
13:30:00 <andythenorth> the question is one of which direction your moment is going
13:30:02 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: lol, 'top secret' :D
13:30:17 <andythenorth> so you basically have a moment about the front wheel
13:30:38 <Pinkbeast> But it's not adhesion-based - a "stickier" front tyre would not alter this limit at all
13:30:47 <peter1138> i got to svn update
13:30:53 <peter1138> now i can't be bothered :S
13:31:02 <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: yes and no
13:31:11 <Alberth> peter1138: write a script :)
13:31:37 <Alberth> to svn update for you :)
13:31:39 <andythenorth> depends whether you want to consider the rear wheel
13:31:52 <peter1138> don't need help with that. i'm not bjarni :)
13:31:53 <andythenorth> during braking you lose adhesion on the rear wheel due to weight transfer
13:32:02 <Pinkbeast> You don't have to consider the rear wheel at all because in a maximum effort emergency stop it's totally unloaded and the rear brake is useless.
13:32:42 <Pinkbeast> Yes, on your bike - because in an emergency stop you are _at_ that point where the rear wheel is about to lift.
13:33:00 <andythenorth> mine goes sideways in that situation
13:33:11 <Pinkbeast> That's because you use the rear brake, I guess?
13:33:13 <Terkhen> andythenorth: not very far
13:33:23 <andythenorth> there's usually about 10kgs unevenly loaded in one rear pannier, low down
13:33:24 <Terkhen> I have some further unifications to test
13:33:25 <Pinkbeast> Then the limiting factor is rider braking skill, not adhesion.
13:33:37 <Terkhen> but that's not "real" work towards rv-wagons
13:34:12 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: only if adhesion is strong enough imo. Consider a very slippery front-wheel, then I'd brake with my rear wheel
13:34:15 <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: the weight over the rear wheel prevents a lot of the lift, but the rear wheel still breks loose
13:34:29 <Pinkbeast> 10kg is not so much; it's 10% of the bike-rider system.
13:34:52 <andythenorth> and the weight being on one side causes an offset, so I end up going sideways
13:34:56 <Pinkbeast> Alberth> Yes - adhesion can lower until it's the limit, but on a normal bike on normal road it isn't.
13:35:04 <andythenorth> I've crashed my bike, I know how it plays out :P
13:35:18 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: my normal bike doesn't have front brakes :p
13:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> any sane person brakes his bike on the rear wheel
13:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you want to meet the pavement
13:35:56 <Pinkbeast> Eddi> No, because in an emergency you can only get maximum braking with the front brake, didn't we just go through all this?
13:36:31 <Hinrik> where does openttd download the newgrf content from?
13:36:39 <MNIM> In general you want brakes on both wheels
13:37:08 <andythenorth> in general, you crash
13:37:11 <andythenorth> is my experience
13:37:12 <MNIM> because, if properly used, each amplifies the braking effect of the other
13:37:42 <Pinkbeast> MNIM> What exactly does the rear brake do at the point you are braking so hard the rear wheel is unloaded?
13:37:49 <andythenorth> at the point where you need the full breaking power of rubber on dry tarmac, you're going to crash
13:38:17 <Hinrik> MNIM has got his physics wrong
13:38:23 <MNIM> pink: that's exactly what I mean when I say /when properly used/
13:38:36 <MNIM> EG - without lifting your rear wheel
13:39:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: from testing your patch, playing a game at 0.5x normal year progression *is* better
13:39:28 <andythenorth> I avoid the word 'daylength' :P
13:39:45 <Pinkbeast> MNIM> The load on the rear wheel decreases directly with deceleration. So if the rear wheel still has load on it, you're not decelerating as hard as possible.
13:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i typically use daylength 4 or 8
13:39:51 <Hinrik> if you're in a position where you can safely use the front brake, there's no point in using less and adding a little rear braking to compensate
13:39:54 <Pinkbeast> So, no, this is not "properly used" in an emergency.
13:40:09 <peter1138> generally my brakes aren't good enough to lift the rear wheel
13:40:12 <MNIM> pinkbeast: now that's where people are wrong
13:40:18 <peter1138> but... i'm kinda heavy and i have stuff in panniers
13:40:20 <Alberth> MNIM: unfortunately lifting back wheels happens all by itself if you break on wheels before it
13:40:26 <MNIM> it's not wise to max out on braking
13:40:32 <Pinkbeast> peter> Well, there's another non-adhesion based braking limit.
13:41:29 <Pinkbeast> MNIM> Wisdom isn't the issue, fortunately - the question is, is the limit on braking based on adhesion, and wise or not, at the limit the rear wheel isn't in play.
13:41:44 <andythenorth> Pinkbeast is right, assuming by 'emergency' he means 'lock the wheel', and on dry tarmac
13:41:55 <andythenorth> rubber has a very high c/f on dry tarmac
13:42:38 <andythenorth> so you basically get either a pivot about the front wheel of the whole bike, or the bike stays down and you go over the bars
13:42:46 <Pinkbeast> By "emergency" I mean "I want to stop as fast as possible without having a prang"
13:42:50 <Alberth> why doesn't that work with the rearbrake equally well then, if you don't brake on the front?
13:42:51 <MNIM> generally, to achieve maximum braking power on a straight line on the dry black, you'll use your front wheel with a slight bit of control breaking on the back, and, most importantly, with your ass over your rear wheels
13:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> at the point where you lock the wheel on the tarmac, you have no choice other than falling over...
13:43:11 <MNIM> rear wheel, singular, that is
13:43:36 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: hopefully after coming to a stop :)
13:43:47 <Hinrik> Alberth: the rear brake only has half the stopping power of the front brake
13:43:49 <MNIM> and, to avoid faceplanting the asphalt, here's the kicker:
13:44:03 <Hinrik> Alberth: until the wheel starts skidding
13:44:21 <andythenorth> why are we discussing this? :P there are no bikes in ttd :P
13:44:39 <MNIM> only experience can teach you to apply the correct dosage to both wheels separately while shifting your CG backwards
13:45:07 <Pinkbeast> andy> Well, there are pretty few vehicles whose braking isn't limited by adhesion at all and bikes sprang to mind... oh, and he's gone
13:46:26 <Pinkbeast> Anyway, I must cycle to the pub, hopefully without doing any practical testing of the discussion
13:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the only place where adhesion doesn't have an influence on braking is a sail ship
13:47:26 <MNIM> you're forgetting any other vehicle without contact to a solid surface :P
13:48:44 <Elukka> eddi: first draft of mail coach
13:50:32 <Diablo-D3> in industrial stations renewal
13:50:50 <Diablo-D3> what are the road vehicle fixtures for?
13:56:01 <Diablo-D3> what triggers them to do something
13:56:10 <Diablo-D3> obviously my own vehicles cant drive on them
13:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't do anything, they're eyecandy
13:56:43 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: yeah I get that, but what cargo do they trip on?
13:56:59 <Diablo-D3> like the truck parking one has trucks parked in it, but when I place it its blank
13:57:15 <Diablo-D3> well not blank blank, its just an empty parking lot
13:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, never used it
13:57:33 <MNIM> first you'll need to have cargos loaded/unloaded at the station
13:57:58 <MNIM> Ive seen 'em work on ECS cargoes, at least
13:58:07 <Diablo-D3> ahh its a pax station
13:58:35 <MNIM> if you want something animated at a pax station, you'll want the canadian stations set!
13:58:40 <MNIM> if only for the parking spots
13:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> industrial stations reacting on passengers would be slightly silly
13:59:02 <Diablo-D3> theres a cars parking lot too
13:59:11 <MNIM> they are full of cars depending on the number of passengers there are
13:59:14 <Diablo-D3> which looks like it should be paxable
13:59:46 <MNIM> the carpark in industrial replacement stations isn't for pax: it's for the vehicles factory
14:00:29 <Diablo-D3> so is the canadian stations set the pax equiv to industrial stations?
14:00:33 <MNIM> you'll want to have some industry set like FIRS/ECS that has something lice a vehicle factory to see that
14:00:45 <Diablo-D3> is there a counterpart at all?
14:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there are several passenger station sets
14:01:19 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: yeah but none of them seem to really have much interesting stuff
14:01:23 <Diablo-D3> its all just new station art
14:01:35 <MNIM> dutch stations, though personally I don't like that one (even though Im dutch)
14:02:01 <MNIM> well, at least the canadian stations set has a pretty carpark
14:03:13 <MNIM> also, most stationsets have separate station buildings which look pretty
14:03:30 *** MercedesBenz has joined #openttd
14:04:31 <MNIM> look at this, for example.
14:05:13 <MercedesBenz> how to set in full screen mode, different screen resolution?
14:05:24 <Diablo-D3> MercedesBenz: settings.
14:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> game settings window
14:05:30 *** Hyronymus has joined #openttd
14:05:44 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: hrm, total town renewal at least
14:05:47 <MNIM> that's japanese stationset platforms, canadian set station building and car parks
14:05:56 <MNIM> and yes, that's also TTRS
14:06:21 <MNIM> it's a less successful version of my current alpine map, actually (this version kept crashing)
14:06:56 <MercedesBenz> I need to 1024x768, not in the list of such
14:07:01 <Diablo-D3> Ill have to throw the canadian station set in to my list next time
14:07:06 <Diablo-D3> MercedesBenz: yes it is, Im looking right at it
14:08:21 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: Im currently using 2cc, av8, chips, egrvts, firs, fish, heqs, isr, lv4, ntracks, three snow mods, ttrs, and tbrs
14:09:14 <MNIM> Id say skip the snow mods and use opengfx+ terrain instead next time
14:09:41 <MNIM> unless you want to use grassyknolls (opengfx+ terrain overrides grassyknolls, apparently)
14:09:57 <Diablo-D3> well Im using smooth snow transition, snow aware artic buldings, and snow line mod
14:10:02 <MNIM> the rest is pretty much the same as Im using
14:10:32 <Diablo-D3> so unless opengfx+ terrain makes the snow line go up and down as the season changes, or fades snow to grass, not seeing the point
14:10:49 <Alberth> MercedesBenz: afaik that list is pulled from the operating system, so if your hardware does not support it, it is not shown
14:11:27 <Alberth> or perhaps you can change the screen setting in your OS ?
14:11:49 <MNIM> Diablo-D3: that's what it does
14:12:25 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: it does both?
14:12:39 <Diablo-D3> well thats two mods I can cross off
14:13:05 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: so whats on your list thats not on mine or vice versa?
14:13:10 <Diablo-D3> besides the stations
14:13:20 <Diablo-D3> like any interesting train grfs?
14:13:44 <MNIM> anyway, lemme open my most recent game and pull that list
14:14:26 *** MercedesBens has joined #openttd
14:14:35 <MercedesBens> I do not understand
14:15:35 <Alberth> OpenTTD can only use resolutions that your hardware knows
14:16:15 <Alberth> (and your video driver, of course)
14:17:03 <MNIM> wait a sec, Im editing my screenshot and uploading
14:18:47 <MercedesBens> I now have resolution 1024x768, but when I click on the "Full Screen", the resolution is changed to another. how do I change it
14:20:24 <Rubidium> if that happens, then Windows tells OpenTTD that Windows cannot change the display's resolution to 1024x768. In that case OpenTTD falls back to the current desktop resolution.
14:20:57 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: its kind of nonobvious how to use tbrs with ttrs... you have to tell ttrs not use any of its own infrastructure apparently
14:21:07 <MNIM> though, for some reason, the town names sets don't work
14:21:28 <Rubidium> where and why Windows decides that said resolution is unavailable is beyond me, but Windows (or the video driver) makes the decision
14:21:43 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: pretty sure the town names sets override each other
14:21:50 <Alberth> MercedesBens: that's 1,680px × 1,050px here
14:22:05 <MNIM> ah. well, not a single one of those works, I still get the default names
14:22:18 <Diablo-D3> also, dwe and vast? hrm
14:22:23 <Diablo-D3> maybe I should throw those in
14:22:34 <Diablo-D3> I took suburban, rural, and city stations out
14:22:47 <Diablo-D3> and I cant get them to work right
14:23:04 <Rubidium> MNIM: would you next time please make a screenshot with OpenTTD's screenshot feature. It will make a significantly smaller screenshot, and you don't have to blur out stuff on the taskbar
14:23:08 <MNIM> dwe has pipelines, those look nice on oil/water stations
14:23:21 <MNIM> I wouldn't recommend vast, though, really
14:23:24 <Alberth> MercedesBens: that image is bigger than the resolution you desire
14:23:29 <MNIM> just a collection of empty stationtiles
14:23:37 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: well yeah, thats the point
14:23:47 <Rubidium> Alberth: where did he post an image?
14:23:50 <MNIM> it's in the list more because I forgot to pull it out, than that I found any real use for it
14:24:06 <Diablo-D3> I wanna add marico next
14:24:10 <MNIM> other stationsets provide empty tiles as well (and/or prettier)
14:24:19 <Alberth> MercedesBens: ooh, it's not your image. Sorry for the confusion
14:24:22 <MNIM> sadly, it's a bit bugged
14:24:45 <MNIM> I can't build 'em ingame, though it's said to be possible
14:25:14 <Diablo-D3> MNIM: I thought you had to use the other menu to build em
14:25:35 <Diablo-D3> it adds a new action on the landscaping toolbar
14:25:54 <Diablo-D3> is what what newobjects are?
14:26:01 <MNIM> but they don't appear on the objects selection window
14:26:10 <Diablo-D3> meh Ill keep it out then
14:26:49 <MNIM> unless a fixed version appears, you can do that
14:27:13 <MercedesBens> I want resolution in full screen 1024x768, rather than less, which offers games to choose from the list
14:27:36 <MNIM> but when it does work, it is *pretty*
14:28:20 *** DayDreamer has joined #openttd
14:28:22 <Diablo-D3> I think I might throw in a HQ replacement grf too
14:28:47 <MNIM> sadly, it got lost in an OS reinstall
14:29:09 <MNIM> that one had a un-bugged version of marico - it was glorious
14:29:11 <appe> MNIM: now that is a pretty sight.
14:29:33 * MNIM notes to self: backup /home/ more often
14:30:02 <Diablo-D3> see, that as a pax station tile would be awesome
14:31:14 <MNIM> the only disadvantage of that game was that in later stages of the game the bridges you see down-left were rather bogged down with rail traffic between the two mega cities
14:31:27 <MNIM> restructuring was ...expensive.
14:32:34 * Diablo-D3 TURNS OFF VEHICLE BREAKDOWNS
14:32:45 <appe> i never play with it on.
14:32:57 <MNIM> I do, but I have 'em to reduced
14:33:05 <V453000> LOL dutch sea-level land MNIM ? :D
14:33:09 <Diablo-D3> I have it on reduced, but I have a giant bus fleet
14:33:29 <V453000> breakdowns are stupid, even if you service trains the most you can, they still break down
14:33:31 <Diablo-D3> so it just keeps making the goddamned noise
14:33:38 <MNIM> the rest of the map is rather mountainous, though
14:33:41 <Diablo-D3> I even had a goddamned depot order in
14:33:49 <Diablo-D3> and they keep making that damned noise
14:33:56 <V453000> and breakdowns just make the game easier over all
14:35:06 <V453000> sure, it leaves less room for inventions and making up stuff for intensively busy networks
14:35:14 <V453000> because you will never get to that point with breakdowns on
14:36:12 <V453000> well, if you had intensively busy network, you would not be able to get away with 1 bridge per line
14:36:40 <MNIM> also, I keep bridges at five tiles long max, usually
14:37:56 <MNIM> in that one pic alone, I mean
14:38:03 <V453000> dont know, count them
14:38:25 <V453000> but it is for 4 _full_ lines of trains
14:38:44 <V453000> the full is key for "intensive" traffic
14:39:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
14:39:56 <V453000> but yes, it is completely silly, which is why we are improving our building style for years
14:41:31 <MNIM> personally I like 'em most like that last pic I posted. possibly not the most efficient use of ground, but definitely the prettiest (IMNSHO)
14:42:32 <V453000> if that is pretty for you :)
14:44:21 <MNIM> is that a quadline junction?
14:45:28 <V453000> 3 from 2 sides, 4 from one
14:45:48 <V453000> 3 from 2 and 2 from the northern one
14:46:57 <MNIM> it is a /bit/ bigger than most of my junctions
14:47:19 <V453000> it is extremely small
14:47:43 <MNIM> also, I usually hide a station somewhere near my junction, which tends to complicate them
14:49:46 <MNIM> though, I should admit, I have no quad*quad*quad*quad junctions
14:51:06 <V453000> 4way juntcions are never worth building instead of 3ways, from 2 lines or more they become uselessly big and unexpandale
14:51:24 <V453000> just to reply on the number of *quads* :p
14:51:40 <MNIM> ah yeah, I can follow that thought
14:51:51 <peter1138> i like to build my junctions just outside of stations
14:51:56 <peter1138> it's inefficient but pretty ;p
14:52:23 <MNIM> and if I can help it, I try to integrate the station in my junction
14:52:37 <V453000> yes, which keeps you from needing any system for your network because PBS allows you to do such messy things :)
14:53:56 <V453000> but PBS is just evil :)
14:54:22 <MNIM> generally I only use PBS for loadbalancing on quadlines and leaving roro stations with shared platforms
14:54:56 <MNIM> when used like that, they work pretty well
14:55:31 <V453000> pretty well until you get high traffic :)
14:56:04 <MNIM> nah, that's where they start having an advantage, at least in this setup that's what I experienced
14:56:41 <MNIM> as six trains can leave and enter the station at one side at once, which wouldn't be possible with presignals
14:57:29 <Diablo-D3> doesnt use a tanker
14:58:21 <Diablo-D3> I can either yes boxcar or silo
14:58:31 <MNIM> unless I add miles of bridges and complicated rail paths, of course. that would be most effecient, in terms of traffic densities and likelyhood of jams
14:58:41 <MNIM> but less effecient In terms of land usage
14:58:42 <V453000> you still havent understood what I mean by high traffic :P
14:59:04 <MNIM> I know, I know what you mean
14:59:55 <MNIM> but when I have to transport large quantities of resources from several mines at once I go for 14 block or even 28 block trains
15:00:15 <V453000> whats the problem? :)
15:00:51 <MNIM> you use lots of small trains
15:01:50 <MNIM> I go for the scale enlargement option
15:03:26 <Diablo-D3> man raw milk in a boxcar
15:04:00 <MNIM> diablo: the question is, is the issue in your trainset or in your industries vector?
15:06:14 <MNIM> the latter is more likely, as the trainset only supplies wagons for certain types of cargoes - liquid, goods, solid minerals/grain etc, livestock and valuables, mail, humans
15:06:38 <MNIM> the industry vector defines cargoes and what kind of cargo they are
15:10:06 <Elukka> is milk actually transported in tankers these days?
15:10:43 <peter1138> i made a crap train because i forgot about loan :p
15:10:51 <MNIM> not in train tankers, as far as Im aware
15:11:21 <Elukka> i know the brits did it at some point
15:15:06 <Diablo-D3> thats sorta tankerish
15:15:16 <Diablo-D3> but why the hell does a boxcar hold a crapload more milk than that
15:15:24 <Elukka> i don't think it's for liquids
15:15:44 <Elukka> i have a model like that for animal feed
15:16:02 <Diablo-D3> well according to 2cc
15:16:15 <Diablo-D3> it says alchohol, chemicals, milk, oil, petrol
15:16:26 <Diablo-D3> the tanker does chemicals, oil, and petrol
15:17:03 <Diablo-D3> the boxcar does alchohol, supplies, supplies, fish, food, fruit and vegitables, goods, livestock, supplies, and milk
15:17:37 <Diablo-D3> and the hopper does ore ore ore grain ore lumber plant fibres ore ore sugar beet and wood
15:19:12 <MNIM> well, according to 2CC with ECS, my tanker does oil, petrol, refined products and water
15:19:42 <MNIM> silo does dyes, oil, petrol, refined products and water.
15:20:05 <MNIM> the boxcar does mostly foodstuffs and valuables
15:21:40 <erik1984> MNIM: lol that's planning ahead for the city growth
15:22:03 <erik1984> I was refering to the screenshots posted earlier btw.
15:23:45 <MNIM> on of my earlier games I did it the 'natural' way
15:24:14 <MNIM> let me tell you, erasing half a city because you need to double up your tracks and station... not pretty
15:27:08 <erik1984> Smart move, it sucks when you have to resort to bribing.
15:27:32 <Diablo-D3> I have a fleet of 25 maddelena ferriies
15:27:38 <Diablo-D3> the big 800 pax ones
15:27:54 <Diablo-D3> I have busses transferring to them from one city
15:28:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "no further government funding for Transrapid test track planned after the end of this year"
15:28:15 <MNIM> the one marico screenshot I showed?
15:28:31 <MNIM> those were madelenas, they hardly sufficed
15:28:58 <MNIM> two gigantic cities, right next to eachother
15:29:43 <MNIM> express trains shuttling solely between those two, madelenas and a couple of faster boats, 300kmh+ intercities and stoptrains
15:30:10 <Diablo-D3> theres 100 busses alternating between two loops in the city
15:30:17 <Diablo-D3> an inner loop and an outer loop
15:30:21 <Diablo-D3> and I think I need more busses
15:30:46 <MNIM> the sad part about it all?
15:31:10 <MNIM> all that passenger traffic being transported makes the cities increasingly bigger
15:31:15 <MNIM> it's a self-reinforcing loop
15:31:24 <Diablo-D3> I played citybuilder for awhile
15:31:35 <Diablo-D3> I actually won a few games using massive inner city pax
15:31:45 <Diablo-D3> and just providing the bare minimum of other crap
15:39:36 <Diablo-D3> man I have more ferry traffic than new york city
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15:42:42 <Eddi|zuHause> even more than Rubidium's game?
15:47:41 <MNIM> I would say that's a tad bit much
15:48:19 <MNIM> I take it he doesn't use realistic acceleration?
15:48:34 <Diablo-D3> too much shit doesnt work with it
15:49:01 <Diablo-D3> OIL TANKERS! OIL TANKERS EVERYWHERE!
15:51:42 <Diablo-D3> wtf? hes actually using waterway bridges? wtf
15:52:37 <Rubidium> Diablo-D3: why do you think I implemented them?
15:52:49 <Diablo-D3> because you're insane?
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15:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> seriously, who in this channel is not insane? :p
15:53:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: DorpsGek?
15:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: a bot can only be as insane as its implementer? :)
15:54:22 <MNIM> well, considering the bot has crazy in it's very name...
15:54:23 <Rubidium> hmm, sorry... he is insane
15:54:33 <MNIM> also,i have once or twice used aquaducts
15:54:48 <MNIM> but what Im more interested in right now would be water tunnels
15:55:06 <Rubidium> "lack of understanding as prevents one from having the mental capacity required by law for criminal responsibility"
15:55:22 <MNIM> I usually have to build my railway junctions on top of rivers, you see
15:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: asides from it not being overly "realistic", they'd be very glitchy, as ships are so huge
15:55:47 <MNIM> well, they do exist, though they're usually for canals
15:56:01 <MNIM> so realism, like usual, would lie in the hands of the player
15:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: they're usually for very small boats
15:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but like i said, there are not only "realism" arguments
15:57:09 <MNIM> well, ships fit in a single-tile canal, and they fit under single-level bridges
15:57:23 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: it's working again
15:57:27 <MNIM> either way, I do suspect it would be a rather huge coding effort
15:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: ah nice :)
15:58:04 <MNIM> it's more my kind of work
15:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> was down since yesterday
15:58:28 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: the gray rail is high-speed-rail?
15:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: the various shades of gray are various speeds, yes
15:59:12 <MNIM> looks like an old version of nutracks?
15:59:43 <Eddi|zuHause> frankly, i don't like the new nutracks... colours are too similar
16:00:12 <MNIM> guess it's a thing of taste
16:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that was a yacd 1.x game
16:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but not actually the final state
16:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> pirates: 8.5%, FDP: 2.0%
16:05:17 <Elukka> cs tracks are still my favorite
16:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i really hate the cs tracks
16:06:50 <Eddi|zuHause> even more noise than the nutracks. and it's too bright
16:08:09 <Diablo-D3> nocab installed an airport for the entire purpose of flying livestock
16:11:04 <Elukka> hrm can't make the post wagon look very good
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16:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: dunno, hard to decide
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16:27:23 <Elukka> well i'm leaning towards the alternative version now, slightly modified
16:29:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what do you think to a 'Cars' cargo?
16:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: nah, let it be goods
16:31:35 <andythenorth> that has the slightly odd result that 'goods' will go from auto plant to hardware store, food market, etc
16:31:54 <andythenorth> abstract cargos are fine. But so far in FIRS we've managed to avoid 'weird'
16:32:58 <Elukka> i think it's starting to look okay to me but now's the best time for suggestions because i hate reworking everything when all the sprites are done
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16:33:13 <andythenorth> Elukka: it's nice
16:33:37 <andythenorth> I would add highlight for 1px width at right hand edge of roof
16:33:50 <andythenorth> and same on raised brake tower
16:33:58 <andythenorth> just go 1 shade lighter
16:34:53 <Elukka> i do that on the diagonals but it looks kinda odd in the side view
16:35:27 <Elukka> suggestions are good anyway :P
16:35:34 <andythenorth> how annoying is it to randomise industry produced cargos?
16:35:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, how many cargos can you sacrifice for yet another town sink?
16:35:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: dunno
16:35:48 <andythenorth> there's only 1 left :P
16:36:37 <Eddi|zuHause> and what's left for a generic "goods" cargo?
16:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> if you split off Food, Building Materials and Cars?
16:37:24 <andythenorth> currently, generic 'goods'
16:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> what's still producing goods?
16:37:53 <andythenorth> foundry, plastics plant, furniture factory, paper mill, textile mill
16:39:03 <andythenorth> I had planned car plant for a specific 'manufacturing' economy, with rubber + auto parts + automobile cargos
16:39:24 <andythenorth> I'm not sure it fits in the main FIRS economy
16:40:00 <andythenorth> maybe I should just add back a generic 'factory'
16:40:21 <andythenorth> could do something interesting, like a ship yard or such
16:40:26 <andythenorth> what uses metal and is interesting?
16:40:32 <andythenorth> doesn't have to produce, could be a sink
16:41:03 <Elukka> i think cars are pretty interesting
16:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i still think my previous suggestion works best: remove goods from foundry, possibly add building materials instead. and make a car (or generic) factory that accepts metal and manufacturing supplies
16:41:50 <andythenorth> I favour generic factory
16:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the advantage of that is: you don't need any additional cargos
16:46:08 <andythenorth> it's the most logical solution
16:46:16 <andythenorth> is there anything left-field which would be fun?
16:46:22 <andythenorth> we've had factories for years :P
16:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just that cars are one of the most important consumer goods that are usually transported by rail
16:51:51 <andythenorth> it just has a few too many rough edges to make it work
16:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> make the factory generic enough that one can with a clean consciousness use car transporters for it :)
16:53:45 <andythenorth> that's plausible
16:54:03 <andythenorth> you're still delivering cars to a food store :P
16:54:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or make several factories that have no significant functional difference
16:55:10 <MNIM> in ecs, do (large) cities accept vehicles?
16:59:38 <Elukka> that, however, seems like it'd be rather sensible
16:59:39 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: one factory for stuff and one for things
16:59:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you need a grf that contains a car shop industry (or house)
17:03:29 <MNIM> hmmmh yeah, a car dealership makes sense
17:04:20 <Eddi|zuHause> check if the "ECS houses" (which is a subset of "functional" houses from TTRS) contains that
17:04:22 <Diablo-D3> but maybe we should be working on firs more ;)
17:07:33 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I _could_ have the steel mill produce building materials directly
17:07:42 <andythenorth> assume it has a rolling plant for girders
17:07:54 <andythenorth> also foobar wanted that - steel mills produce slag cement
17:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the sense of the foundry then?
17:08:10 <andythenorth> leave it at goods
17:08:13 <andythenorth> I think it's not the best route
17:08:24 <andythenorth> I don't need more building materials. I need another place to send metal
17:08:36 <Eddi|zuHause> turn foundry into factory then, accept metal and mnsp
17:08:48 <andythenorth> it's the route I'll go if we think of nothing more interesting
17:08:53 <andythenorth> it's 80% likely :)
17:09:19 <andythenorth> some metal-processing industry? rolling mill? Stamping plant?
17:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> shipyard: accept metal, produce supplies?
17:11:05 <Eddi|zuHause> engineering supplies in this case
17:11:59 <Eddi|zuHause> shipyards do not only produce ships, also large diesel engines may be produced there
17:12:28 <andythenorth> foundry does casting
17:12:34 <andythenorth> maybe a rolling mill
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17:19:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: on pure logic, the factory wins
17:19:31 <MNIM> there's only one real thing about the whole ttrs that bothers me.
17:20:09 <MNIM> next to the ttrs city towers, the company headquarters looks really tiny.
17:21:17 <V453000> well nobody says you should use HQ in a city :)
17:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there's really only ONE thing that bothers you about TTRS?!?
17:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> besides, you can use a HQ replacement
17:26:40 <V453000> there is no thing that bothers me with TTRS really ... the glitches are sometimes a bit weird, but it looks awesome all in all
17:28:02 <MercedesBens> where you can share save?
17:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> forum, if it's not too big
17:30:07 <andythenorth> there's only one thing wrong with TTRS
17:30:12 <andythenorth> lighting direction :P
17:30:32 <V453000> never even noticed that
17:30:41 <V453000> so it cant be that bad :P
17:31:14 <MercedesBens> where you can download save other players?
17:31:50 <V453000> hehe, directly from the right? :D how far is that from other newgrfs andythenorth ?
17:32:25 <V453000> doesnt look too different to me
17:33:08 <andythenorth> V453000: I take it back :)
17:33:23 <andythenorth> TTRS has some awesome art in it
17:34:04 <andythenorth> it does light sloped roofs wrong though
17:34:39 <V453000> well, yeah, that is the deformation - you as an artist notice that, I obey the shiny illusion it provides :P
17:34:51 <V453000> which is imo what graphics are about - making the illusion and looking nice
17:35:56 <andythenorth> so a rolling mill could produce building materials, and (when in the economy) auto parts
17:36:39 <V453000> maybe not that way :P
17:37:57 <V453000> MercedesBens: hope you will enjoy them :P
17:38:13 <MercedesBens> from what country/city you are?
17:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you want to transport molten metal from steel furnace to rolling mill? :)
17:39:30 <andythenorth> but I thought of doing that to the foundry
17:39:36 <MercedesBens> Interestingly where I play this game
17:39:37 <andythenorth> has anyone drawn torpedo cars?
17:39:38 <V453000> or molten cows to vehicle factory to produce trojan horses
17:39:56 <andythenorth> torpedo cars would be a good independent grf
17:40:04 <andythenorth> or maybe in HEQS :D
17:40:16 <MercedesBens> My English is terrible
17:42:08 <MercedesBens> people, from what you cities?
17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22942 /trunk/src/lang/ (slovak.txt spanish.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 26 changes by Peymanpn
17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovak - 73 changes by klingacik
17:45:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
17:56:41 <TinoDidriksen> Is there an option to disable airplane crashing anywhere yet?
17:57:20 <Eddi|zuHause> disable "normal" crashes in advanced settings, and disable "small airport" crashes in cheats
17:58:05 <V453000> I think the advanced settings are enough, never seen a plane crash and I dont use cheats
17:58:13 <V453000> and I use small airports
17:59:29 <TinoDidriksen> Oh there it is...I looked all over that thing earlier and skipped right past the option.
17:59:48 <Eddi|zuHause> happens to all of us :p
18:18:12 <andythenorth> will you moan if I add rail heavy equipment cars
18:18:28 <andythenorth> hot steel torpedos, heavy equipment carriers...
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18:22:08 <Diablo-D3> I go afk for like a half hour
18:22:12 <Diablo-D3> and now I have 21 million
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18:43:52 <MNIM> hmmmh, Ive got a question
18:44:38 <MNIM> in this pic, the vilskrch Hafen (slightly below the topmost city, right of the island airport)
18:44:48 <MNIM> what newgrf are those dock objects?
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18:53:24 <Diablo-D3> man when the hell does 2cc get good trains
19:02:53 <Diablo-D3> I think I know what the problem is
19:02:57 <Diablo-D3> I have train weight turned up to 5
19:03:03 <Diablo-D3> because nars and ukrs says it shoyuld be
19:04:38 <Diablo-D3> whats the default, 1?
19:08:24 <V453000> or is there a new default?
19:08:36 <Alberth> not that I am aware of
19:08:54 <Diablo-D3> Im on an alpine map
19:09:00 <Diablo-D3> with mountains turned up the whole way
19:09:08 <Diablo-D3> and its absurd that 4 engines cant pull 24 cars
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19:10:29 <Alberth> on the way down it works quite nicely :)
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19:10:44 <Alberth> steepness of the slope is also of importance
19:10:58 <Diablo-D3> its like half full steepness
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19:22:05 <andythenorth> MNIM: the dock objects are probably FIRS fishing harbour industries
19:24:02 <andythenorth> it's a nice map. who's screenshot is that?
19:31:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and this is a firs fishing harbour
19:52:35 <planetmaker> you know... luckily OpenTTD doesn't charge you for each game. Thus you can play a new game (for free!) when you have finished your current one. And even you decide when you have finished it
19:53:01 <MNIM> I like all the rail station pretties in ottd, but sometimes I wish there were more harbour pretties
19:53:19 <planetmaker> use railstations for that effect
19:53:47 <TWerkhoven[l]> a lot of non-track tiles are fairly generic anyway
19:55:16 <MNIM> I know, but those can't be built on a slope (facing the wrong way) or on the water
19:56:22 <planetmaker> they usually have two rotations... so that's not an issue
19:56:42 <planetmaker> and on water... just build canal all around and bulldoze that tile. Then build "on water"
19:56:42 <erik1984> @planetmaker: Yeah OpenTTD is value for money ;)
19:57:22 <MNIM> money? since when do you need to pay for openttd 0-0
20:00:09 <andythenorth> FISH needs a lot more ships
20:00:41 <planetmaker> yeah... lazy author. He didn't spam the purchase list with zillions of ships :-P
20:01:22 <planetmaker> does it need river ships?
20:01:41 <planetmaker> I wondered whether the paddle steamer should rather be river ships
20:02:00 <andythenorth> it will be better when I do more generations
20:02:14 <andythenorth> currently there's hardly progresion
20:02:27 <andythenorth> I lost my co-spriter :(
20:02:37 <planetmaker> hm, who was that?
20:03:20 <planetmaker> did he tell that he'd go for a hiatus?
20:04:01 <planetmaker> sad news. One of the talented ones
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20:52:00 <MNIM> 2200hp just ain't cutting it for a 14tile long cargo train, it seems.
20:52:32 <MNIM> I should be glad it's not doing the mountainous route >.>
20:52:47 <MNIM> even some bridges are only taken at 60-70 kmh
20:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, the heaviest trains are pulled by ~18000hp (2 engines pull, one pushes)
20:54:54 <MNIM> probably the same over here
20:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> those are ore trains with 25t axle weight and 250 axles in total (including engines)
20:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> they go from Hamburg to Salzgitter
20:57:49 <MNIM> what is more important with realistic acceleration and heavy trains? kN or hp?
20:58:15 <Eddi|zuHause> kN is important at low speeds and on slopes, hp is important on any other place
20:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "low speed" is something like 10-20km/h, depending on engine
21:01:59 <MNIM> low speed ain't the problem so far, it's more that it'll block other traffic at slopes going below 70kmh
21:02:15 <MNIM> even though it's maximum elevation above sea level is only three units
21:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "Pro Tag starten vier volle Züge bei Hansaport, und es kommen vier leere Züge zurück - alles Spezialwaggons mit sechs Achsen. 101 Tonnen Ladung schluckt jeder Waggon. 40 Waggons hängen hinter den beiden E-Loks der Baureihe 151. Jede Lok wiegt 118 Tonnen. Das Gesamtgewicht des 640 Meter langen Erztransporters liegt bei 5700 Tonnen."
21:03:18 <MNIM> using the sbb am4/6 from the 2cc. 2200hp and 132kn: something tells me that train was not made for freight trains
21:04:05 <MNIM> oh well, it's just as expensive in running as the old loc while going from five to 14 tiles of freight, so profit should be made anyway :P
21:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "Die 205 Kilometer lange Strecke ist nach viereinhalb Stunden geschafft."
21:06:45 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, that is even old info, the trains are even heavier nowadays
21:08:53 <Diablo-D3> I am now exceeding the ability of my ferries to pick up pax
21:10:16 * Diablo-D3 builds 25 more ferries
21:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that's 27 clicks!
21:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or 29 if you count opening the depot and scrolling to an existing ship
21:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> asymptotocally that's n+o(n) with n being the number of new ships
21:19:27 <__ln__> are there mice with a kind of 'auto-fire' switch?
21:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you have programmable buttons?
21:20:50 <__ln__> would be also useful when debuggin something with KDevelop 3.
21:21:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
21:23:04 <Diablo-D3> I wish there was clone and drag
21:23:12 <Diablo-D3> control shift click clone, drag through spots
21:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> shift is cost estimate
21:36:57 <Pinkbeast> Shunted there by a diesel, maybe?
21:37:46 <TWerkhoven[l]> there do seem to be overhead lines on that line, pantographs are just down
21:38:12 <Pinkbeast> Oh, maybe you're right, they just don't show up in shot very well
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21:45:09 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the "end of train" signs are attached to the rain sweepers :p
21:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> (the red/white plates)
21:45:43 <TWerkhoven[l]> i thought those were just decorative
21:46:02 <TWerkhoven[l]> i take it they are supposed to be affixed to the buffers or lights according to regulations?
21:46:42 <TWerkhoven[l]> or is this a non-remote control loc being towed at the end?
21:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> if the engine/wagon cannot show red lights, these red/white plates must be at the end of train. usually engines have special slots where they fit, but the BR 103 doesn't have any
21:50:09 <TWerkhoven[l]> another thing learned
21:53:05 <TWerkhoven[l]> and with that i is off to bed
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22:04:52 <MNIM> I'mma go and divulge a little secret here.
22:05:05 <MNIM> but you already knew that, right?
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22:09:14 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: what about control alt?
22:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: alt is forbidden, because on some OSes it is caught before it reaches the program
22:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. on most linux window managers, alt+click means move window
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23:22:02 <MNIM> nice train, this sbb Am 4/6, but for the love of god, don't have an engine failure right in front of a slope
23:23:11 <MNIM> it's still not at the top of the slope by the time it's twin tail is behind it
23:24:07 <MNIM> ....and now we have two snail trains. >.<
23:50:32 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
23:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> really what do you expect from using a hopelessly underpowered diesel engine from a country that has 99.9% electrified tracks?
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23:57:20 <peter1138> wikipedia says it's a gas turbine-electric
23:57:28 <peter1138> maybe i'm looking at the wrong thing
23:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> being (internally) electric doesn't mean it can draw power from a catenary
23:58:59 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
continue to next day ⏵
