IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-15
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02:08:38 <najevi> I have a problem efficiently delivering passengers/mail to and from an airport that I built outside of TownA. Have read about two-way feeders at the wiki and it seems that solution requires 2 airports (yuk!). Is there a way to specify that passengers "enroute from TownA" do _not_ get picked up by your feeder train/bus that delivers passengers _to_ TownA.
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02:30:11 <Elukka> unless you use a cargo destinations patch like yacd or cargodist which in my opinion makes it much better
02:30:47 <Elukka> makes passengers know where to go and they'll take any vehicle and make transfers by themselves to get there
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06:40:46 <appe> why can't you use a normal feeding service?
06:41:07 <appe> or am i failing to see the problem :)
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07:14:39 <norbert79> Elukka: Why so many angles?
07:15:04 <Elukka> goes smoother over corners
07:17:18 <Elukka> central european train set
07:17:34 <norbert79> I see, but does OpenTTD make use of all these angles?
07:18:05 <Elukka> all the grf has are green template boxes now, but those boxes look good in corners!
07:19:12 <norbert79> Well, one of the changes I wasn't aware of. NewGRF supporting more angles...
07:19:43 <norbert79> But I guess it's kinda an animation trick... :)
07:19:50 <norbert79> It will be shown as sequences
07:20:02 <norbert79> but then still using the regular angles
07:24:47 <planetmaker> norbert79: it's nothing new. That would in principle work for years
07:25:00 <planetmaker> just no-one wrote a newgrf like that
07:25:06 <norbert79> planetmaker: New for me, never seen any GRF's yet supporting it
07:25:14 <norbert79> planetmaker: Exactly :)
07:25:59 <Elukka> yeah i don't think any other grf has done it so far
07:26:48 <planetmaker> it has its problems which are not yet entirely resolved
07:27:01 <norbert79> I guess graphical glitches and such
07:28:02 <planetmaker> well... but mostly on grounds that it uses wagons longer than half a tile
07:28:46 <Elukka> planetmaker: what kind of graphical glitches can be expected by using wagons that long?
07:28:53 <Elukka> nothing too crippling i hope
07:29:15 <Elukka> long vehicles 4 certainly has its share of glitches but i'm fine with them
07:30:54 <planetmaker> well. I guess we only want to release it with most glitches gone ;-)
07:35:54 <Elukka> my problem with this wagon is that i can fit too many windows
07:40:38 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: is there any preference regarding which end of the compartment coaches the brakeman's cabin should go?
07:42:06 <Elukka> doesn't that require some sort of patch?
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07:47:22 <Elukka> i believe eddi mentioned the newest release doesn't work so well with unpatched ottd
07:47:24 <Elukka> can't hurt to try though
07:49:22 <planetmaker> yes, it will need a non-existing var
07:50:14 <andythenorth> next you'll be wanting curved tracks :)
07:50:47 <Elukka> well, it doesn't have the longest wagons but what's there seems to work fine
07:50:52 <Elukka> can't wait until they have graphics :P
07:53:42 <norbert79> Elukka: Screenshots please :))
07:55:25 <planetmaker> download and test?
07:55:31 <planetmaker> screenshots don't really show it
07:55:35 <norbert79> planetmaker: Not possible atm
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07:56:18 <norbert79> planetmaker: Doubt my employer would hooray my enthusiasm for the game...
07:57:10 <Elukka> beat me to it with a better screen :P
07:57:14 <Elukka> it does look more noticeable in motion
07:57:44 <Elukka> and... huh. why is my max train length so short? is that a patch option somewhere that i forgot to increase when i upgraded?
07:58:02 <planetmaker> it's an adv. setting somewhere
08:01:34 <norbert79> Elukka: Not bad, but on your screen the first wagon looks a bit weird, like it would flip on it's side already
08:02:29 <planetmaker> and we already thought we could use those as the final graphics, norbert79! ;-)
08:02:59 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I smell a bit of sarcasm here :D
08:03:32 <norbert79> planetmaker: Just wanted to point out, that the sprite would need a bit of tuning ;-)
08:05:00 <norbert79> Yet it looks cool, no more edgy movement
08:05:41 <Elukka> i think my sprites might be inching slightly more towards 'decent enough'
08:08:20 <DiabloD3> openttd should have font settings in the gui settings dialog
08:08:46 <Elukka> speaking of sprites...
08:08:50 <norbert79> DiabloD3: There was a patch present for that, but it raises problems with ammount of fonts and/or font caches.
08:09:03 <Elukka> full length wagons are lovely to draw
08:09:14 <norbert79> DiabloD3: You should also not forget, that many systems use different font-systems
08:09:26 <DiabloD3> norbert79: openttd supports bitmap fonts
08:09:31 <DiabloD3> nothing stops it from just including more sizes.
08:10:00 <planetmaker> hm... But DiabloD3 didn't draw them!
08:10:08 <norbert79> DiabloD3: And what about computers, where there are tousands of fonts present? Not necessary using more fonts, feel free editing the ini file. The only nice thing would be just adding the possibility editing those lines from the GUI, but without a selection list...
08:10:15 <planetmaker> and on 2nd thought: no, I wouldn't want to include them
08:10:22 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ah, right, how dumb I am, he is so skilled... :)
08:10:29 <DiabloD3> norbert79: Im not saying use fonts from the system
08:10:34 <planetmaker> norbert79: very yes.
08:10:49 <DiabloD3> the tt font drawer is interesting, but ttd is largely a bitmap font game
08:10:52 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Besides, the problem also comes with Copyrights.
08:11:07 <DiabloD3> yes, and for example X's fonts are under a liberal license.
08:11:09 <norbert79> DiabloD3: And the game can handle TTF's too
08:11:18 <DiabloD3> yes, the game can, Im using a ttf font
08:11:31 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Use the defaults then :)
08:11:38 <DiabloD3> the defaults are too small
08:11:45 <planetmaker> a font selector would only make those you have available
08:11:48 <norbert79> Some cannot be satisifed...
08:11:57 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: not if it just says "small, medium, and large"
08:12:11 <DiabloD3> norbert79: Im on 1920x1200 on a 26".
08:12:15 <norbert79> small = a font for all those texts, which are tiny, like the graphs...
08:12:30 <norbert79> medium = texts for status windows
08:12:35 <norbert79> large = News articles
08:12:42 <DiabloD3> small medium and large for medium.
08:12:44 <norbert79> set them to 16 or 24 pts then
08:12:53 <norbert79> you can set the font size too
08:13:05 <DiabloD3> but you cant set the font size on the default font
08:13:05 <norbert79> Then why crying about it?
08:13:26 <norbert79> Define it.. What's the 'Default' font?
08:13:33 <planetmaker> DiabloD3: you cannot scale the default fonts
08:13:37 <planetmaker> they're pixel images
08:13:41 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: exactly, because it doesnt include multiple sizes
08:13:45 <DiabloD3> what Im saying is, it should
08:13:56 <planetmaker> DiabloD3: and I say it shouldn't
08:14:09 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: it costs nothing to include more sizes.
08:14:11 <planetmaker> we have sytem fonts for those who don't like the sizes which are shipped
08:14:14 <norbert79> You can still create a GRF file solving this problem any time you wish :)
08:14:23 <planetmaker> DiabloD3: good. Please implement a patch. And get drawing
08:14:31 <planetmaker> It costs nothing, right?
08:14:33 <DiabloD3> whats your obsession with drawing?
08:14:47 <planetmaker> ... ? Where do you think the letters will come from?
08:14:59 <norbert79> DiabloD3: You know, that's what it is called COPYRIGHT
08:15:03 <planetmaker> Do you think you can steal?
08:15:14 <DiabloD3> norbert79: yes, and theres this thing called LICENSING
08:15:26 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Open Source game or not, if you still you get your *ss fried about that
08:15:43 <DiabloD3> you will get your ass fried using an open source font in an open source game/
08:15:51 <planetmaker> DiabloD3: and those fonts are... hold your breath... truetype mostly
08:15:53 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Ok, show me ONE font, which would fit the game PERFECTLY and the owner would be happy using it for the game?
08:15:59 <DiabloD3> Someone needs to have a long conversation with a lawyer.
08:16:12 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: X has a lot of MIT licensed bitmap fonts that are readable.
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08:16:27 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Is the MIT license compatible with GPL?
08:16:32 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Doubt HARDLY
08:16:41 <DiabloD3> FSF declared it so already.
08:16:49 <DiabloD3> ie, a group of lawyers.
08:17:10 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Can you provide also sources to this statement?
08:17:14 <planetmaker> good. As it was said that it costs me nothing... I'm still waiting :-)
08:17:24 <norbert79> planetmaker: Som do I
08:18:24 <DiabloD3> norbert79: I heard there was this website called google.
08:18:42 <norbert79> DiabloD3: I am fine with the built in one dude, it's your turn...
08:18:53 <norbert79> DiabloD3: You want to have them inside the game. Work for it.
08:20:14 <norbert79> planetmaker: Heh, I was almost told, that I should work this, to get his highness satisifed.. Interesting contribution model as I see :)
08:20:18 <DiabloD3> norbert79: are you even a openttd dev? why am I discussing this with you?
08:20:53 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Just one sentence: Good luck :D
08:20:54 <planetmaker> DiabloD3: but norbert is 100% right :-)
08:21:10 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: not really.
08:21:13 <DiabloD3> its a long standing bug.
08:21:33 <DiabloD3> I have already given a solution that would be appropriate.
08:21:34 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Never seen any bug listing this as a bug, show us :)
08:21:34 <planetmaker> you can freely configure your font and size in the ini file
08:22:00 <planetmaker> norbert79: there's even somewhere (a probably meanwhile a bit outdated) patch to add a gui to font selection
08:22:21 <DiabloD3> You know what, this is why no one contributes to this fucking game.
08:22:26 <planetmaker> also ... adding another bitmap font is mostly pointless
08:22:30 <norbert79> planetmaker: That's what I have mentioned already, and asked about the font caches there... FOllowed up that a bit, since being a typhile :)
08:22:40 <planetmaker> there's more languages which require more characters than the default fonts provide
08:22:55 <DiabloD3> You make FOSS look bad.
08:23:42 <norbert79> Did he even know who is he addressing? In any case, did he ever red the list of contributors? Eh, never mind, this was just weird...
08:24:11 <planetmaker> I couldn't care less :-)
08:24:15 <norbert79> Besides, I think OpenTTD has the best support anyway, I am happy to see the binaries provided.
08:24:44 <blathijs> norbert79: Btw, I think MIT is GPL-compatible, FWIW
08:24:58 <planetmaker> in a (technical) discussion it shouldn't matter whether someone can commit to the repo or not. But there was not technical argument from his side
08:25:14 <planetmaker> yes, MIT should be compatible with GPL (not vice versa, though)
08:25:33 <norbert79> blathijs: Probably, but in either way if he would like to implement changes he would still need to work on it. He also needs to provide the documentation and sources and case pictures as well, which can at least make anyone start thinking about using anything new.
08:26:08 <blathijs> norbert79: I was just commenting on that single statement, I haven't read the rest of the discussion
08:26:13 <norbert79> blathijs: it's a bit of a work, but worth the effort, besides, I also felt just a problem with his logic.
08:26:29 <blathijs> but it seems DiabloD3 is still a moron, just like when we banned him a few years ago
08:26:45 <planetmaker> nah, a font selection GUI wouldn't hurt. That doesn't require adding them to OpenTTD, though
08:26:49 <norbert79> blathijs: He seems like being a kid to me, he still needs to learn, imho.
08:27:09 <planetmaker> (on the contrary, a font selection GUI would be nice)
08:27:22 <norbert79> planetmaker: Agree, the problem what i see the different font systems used by the systems... Hard to apply it when you have an API at one side and no API or a different one for an another OS.
08:27:47 <norbert79> planetmaker: LibreOffice/OpenOffice solved it somehow, but question comes if it's really necessary to put the effort into.
08:28:13 <Terkhen> there is a (now outdated) font selection GUI patch in the dev forums
08:28:30 <Terkhen> but the creator got unmotivated and I wasn't able to get him to finish it :P
08:28:32 <norbert79> Terkhen: Yes, we alreasdy touched it
08:28:40 <planetmaker> yeah. It misses the OSX side :-P
08:28:43 <norbert79> Terkhen: Yes, also followed that up :)
08:29:20 <planetmaker> (but missing it on one OS or another is not the argument to skip it, if it's feasible to implement in the same framework)
08:29:31 <norbert79> Terkhen: I touched the topic behalf of my problem back then, because I used to use 8000 Fonts, now limited to 1200, but still that would just cause a mess when in game.
08:29:44 <Terkhen> yes, we talked about that
08:30:01 <Terkhen> IIRC he was inclined to implement font caching in a separate thread
08:30:16 <Terkhen> but I don't remember if it would still need to cache fonts at every startup or not
08:30:46 <norbert79> Manual method would also work fine, instead of adding font-cache creation at start having just a button 're read fonts' would be also nice, imo
08:30:51 <Terkhen> he was testing with about 200 fonts and it already messed up with performance :P
08:31:22 <planetmaker> Well, selecting a font needs not be terribly performant. It's a one-time task
08:31:40 <Terkhen> that suggestion sounds nice, yes... as pm says it is a one time task
08:31:42 <norbert79> planetmaker: Sure, unless you are not a font enthusiastic :D
08:31:51 <Terkhen> feel free to post it in the patch thread :)
08:32:37 <planetmaker> scanning NewGRFs also takes looong.
08:33:17 <norbert79> planetmaker: Windows has this issue, that some Printing drivers use Postscript methods, and for this they don't create a system-wide cache, but re-read all the fonts when pressing "Preferences" before printing. I used to wait 30 minutes (!) for being able to switch from A/4 to A/3 :)
08:33:19 <planetmaker> hm... I wonder whether OpenTTD could cache the info of the scanned NewGRFs and re-scan in a separate thread
08:33:41 <planetmaker> norbert79: sounds like a PITA ;-)
08:34:00 <planetmaker> and scanning fonts could be threaded separately, too
08:34:05 <norbert79> planetmaker: Nah, I would still prefer system-wide font cache, but Windows lacks of it. So does ubuntu by now :(
08:34:24 <planetmaker> norbert79: yes, but that's out of OpenTTD's control
08:34:47 <norbert79> but still makes the GUI for font selecting a bit more problematic
08:37:00 <planetmaker> Life is never really easy :-)
08:56:40 <planetmaker> dbg: [grf] Unknown StringID 0x000C remapped to STR_EMPTY. Please open a Feature Request if you need it
08:56:50 <planetmaker> can also be caused by a NewGRF bug :-)
08:59:19 <planetmaker> feature request: "fix bug in my NewGRF" :-P
09:08:06 <planetmaker> hm... a requirement of 1.5 million engineering supplies per month seems unrealistic ;-)
09:08:24 <planetmaker> also that they can store 18 million units of those
09:08:38 <planetmaker> and I doubt they use them efficiently as they claim
09:11:45 <Elukka> and they use them efficiently?!
09:12:02 <planetmaker> yeah ;-) That's what they claim
09:13:00 <planetmaker> probably they grab each grain of and and individually weigh, characterize and package it
09:13:14 <planetmaker> s/and and/sand and/
09:13:21 <Elukka> "Bob? Did you drop that shipment in the pond again?"
09:14:11 <planetmaker> There came a bunch of crazy truck drivers with some garbage...
09:17:09 <MNIM> I love the description of what they do with excess vehicle supplies in first tier industries in ecs
09:17:16 <MNIM> dump truck races FTW! :P
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09:19:08 <Elukka> when i played a game with a bunch of friends, two of us were entirely dedicated to designing new stations... meanwhile, one of us built a hugely expensive hovercraft racetrack
09:19:11 <Elukka> it didn't work terribly well
09:20:04 <Elukka> darkened the roof by a notch since
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10:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: looks nice
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11:26:24 <MNIM> is it possible to make elevated rail?
11:30:45 <peter1138> yes, just provide a patch ;)
11:30:57 <peter1138> i _don't_ have a patch for that
11:31:09 <b_jonas> does any of you have the problem that you try to abort mouse drags with shift instead of escape outside of openttd?
11:31:15 <b_jonas> such as window resizes
11:31:36 <MNIM> ...wait, you can abort mouse drags with shift in ottd?
11:32:04 <b_jonas> MNIM: with some operations at least, and only if you hold down shift as you release the button
11:32:25 <MNIM> oh, it's the cost estimation tool?
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11:33:09 <b_jonas> that's actually inherited from ttd
11:33:33 <planetmaker> technically it doesn't abort it ;-)
11:33:51 <planetmaker> as it still gives you the cost estimate
11:34:19 <planetmaker> but it's a good way to avoid deleting the whole map, if you accidentially dragged too much
11:36:51 <b_jonas> also to measure distances: drag level tool, it shows length of sides, hold shift, release it
11:37:13 <b_jonas> so it has at least three uses: cost estimation, length measurement, aborting errors
11:37:53 <MNIM> well, I wouldn't call it a problem, anyway
11:38:27 <MNIM> at least in linux, when I press shift while dragging (a selection) it does indeed abort
11:38:50 <norbert79> MNIM: So does it under Windows too
11:39:14 <b_jonas> it depends on what you do. sadly some programs don't abort even if you press escape.
11:42:31 <erik1984> Didn't know about shift either to 'abort' rail placement (btw hi all ;))
11:43:08 <norbert79> hi erik1984 :) ... Works since TTD :)
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11:44:47 <DiabloD3> how do I check if my server is externally accessable?
11:45:05 <erik1984> There are more of these simple tricks I only recently became aware of. Like closing all windows with DEL
11:45:45 <DiabloD3> erik1984: del is fucking perfect
11:46:04 <erik1984> DiabloD3: if you tell me the name I could see if it pops up in my list of internet games
11:46:16 <DiabloD3> it pops up, but I dont know if people can connect
11:46:19 <Ammler> also servers.openttd.org helpfs
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11:46:25 <Diablo-D3> silly server stole my -
11:46:45 <Diablo-D3> erik1984: btw, check the ottd wiki for hotkeys
11:47:02 <erik1984> I can see it in my list
11:47:30 <norbert79> erik1984: Seing it in your own list and being able to be seen from Master are two different things. Ports open on your router/network?
11:47:46 <Diablo-D3> erik1984: yes, but can you connect?
11:48:27 <erik1984> Can't try because there is a newgrf mismatch
11:48:56 <Diablo-D3> it should say in the grf window
11:49:19 <Diablo-D3> because everything Im using is available on bananas
11:49:33 <erik1984> A lot of them, I'll try to get the missing content
11:49:47 <Diablo-D3> ahh, if its missing content, thats a one click download
11:50:00 <Diablo-D3> I wonder why openttd doesnt automatically download
11:50:11 <norbert79> ...here we go again...
11:50:33 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: hey, is there a key to repeat previous command?
11:50:51 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: I thought you are skilled enough to know that :)
11:50:53 <Diablo-D3> or to clone vehicles faster?
11:50:54 <planetmaker> openttd should ask for credit card details. And only upon validation of those henceforth automatically download
11:51:14 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ah, right, and it also accepts VISA Electron, right?
11:51:30 <planetmaker> if money could be successfully transfered, yes ;-)
11:51:40 <planetmaker> argentum non olet ;-)
11:51:51 <norbert79> planetmaker: I had some issues past month with the transfer, an error message came up, but the connection was ok :S...
11:51:59 <Diablo-D3> so yay erik connected
11:52:02 <norbert79> planetmaker: Oh well, someone will fix the bug
11:52:12 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if I should reimage my VPS
11:52:18 <Diablo-D3> switch to debian so I can run openttd on it
11:52:54 <planetmaker> norbert79: as usual: only after credit card validation :-P
11:53:15 <norbert79> I was told, that the best servers are runed on clustered Commodore 64 machines, with the 20 Mhz upgrade (Google for it, it exists), and with the 6501 Ethernet port addon.
11:53:28 <norbert79> For Openttd at least
11:53:45 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of 'best' that might be true
11:53:56 <planetmaker> maybe with added liquid helium cooling ;-)
11:54:16 <norbert79> Nah, nitrogene is enough, 6501 would freeze under liqid helium
11:55:06 <Diablo-D3> hrm I need to fix my server :<
11:55:14 <norbert79> Also note for myself: Never cool your beer inside liquid helium
11:55:26 <planetmaker> hm... how does production level relate to industry output (for primary)?
11:55:39 <planetmaker> probably action0 properties
11:55:54 <Diablo-D3> note to self: move total bridge below total town
11:56:28 <planetmaker> norbert79: there's nothing wrong with that. But you need to allow some time before you can serve it as ice cream
11:56:45 <norbert79> planetmaker: But how do I take it out?
11:56:55 <planetmaker> long pokey stick?
11:57:01 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: tongs.
11:57:06 <Diablo-D3> and be careful not to drop it
11:57:13 <norbert79> planetmaker: Yeah, might work, if it won't break at ~-270°C :)
11:57:27 <Diablo-D3> alum is easy to shatter at those temps
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12:04:51 <Diablo-D3> can I turn autosave off for servers?
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12:31:09 <MNIM> You know what would be nice?
12:31:22 <andythenorth> some unmentionable here
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12:31:51 <MNIM> a tool to convert massive amounts of classic signals into signal lights, no matter what type
12:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> why would you do that?
12:44:11 <norbert79> I understand the logic, I just don't understand by converting you mean converting to one type, or converting a classic one way to a modern light one way signal, or to a plain light one?
12:44:12 <peter1138> andythenorth, yes, best not to mention multistop docks
12:44:33 <peter1138> semaphores to lights
12:44:48 * andythenorth doesn't mention multistop docks
12:45:00 <peter1138> mentioning multistop docks would be pointless
12:45:22 <planetmaker> yeah. It would remind people only about road types. Which shouldn't be mentioned either
12:45:51 <planetmaker> see. 'shouldn't be mentioned' ;-)
12:46:10 <Diablo-D3> you mean like trucks vs streetcars?
12:46:37 <planetmaker> like e-rail vs. maglev
12:47:17 <Diablo-D3> that wouldnt make sense for road
12:47:32 <Diablo-D3> since management of roads is by law and the local government
12:47:54 <Diablo-D3> theres no analog in ottd
12:48:11 <planetmaker> we shouldn't have mentioned it anyway
12:48:11 <andythenorth> we can stop discussing it then
12:48:20 <Diablo-D3> roads have also basically not changed since the invention of asphalt
12:48:42 <norbert79> ...I guess some experts in this area would have let loose a slight of a scream here...
12:49:04 <Diablo-D3> ottd has enough problems with the train fanatics
12:49:08 <norbert79> I was referring to your statement Diablo, don't be so happy about it
12:49:24 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: Im not ignorant of t he history of road
12:49:51 <Diablo-D3> but ottd has no way of really showing stuff
12:50:05 <Diablo-D3> like, we dont pay for maint of roads, just construction
12:50:15 <norbert79> OTTD is no Road-Train-Simulator in any way, it's a Tycoon game
12:50:38 <norbert79> What's your point then?
12:50:40 <Diablo-D3> it should be fun, challenging, and interesting
12:50:48 <Diablo-D3> multiple road types for the sake of having them makes no sense
12:51:01 <Diablo-D3> roads vs streetcars DOES make sense
12:51:10 <Diablo-D3> but only grfs have those
12:51:37 <Diablo-D3> I think I like my ottd setup though
12:51:45 <norbert79> Just one technical contra against your idea: Did you ever considered how much network traffic would this cause?
12:52:13 <Diablo-D3> is network traffic still a concern? its not like people play over dialup anymore
12:52:13 <planetmaker> norbert79: doesn't matter. The website survived a slashdot ;-)
12:53:05 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: Well, I would still consider running OpenTTD, despite I don't own a Cisco Gigabit Router... Street cars, if it would affect running trucks would be an overkill on the network traffic...
12:53:32 * andythenorth has entered a mad world
12:53:36 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: Im not sure I understand
12:53:40 <Diablo-D3> they already exist in grfs
12:53:45 <Diablo-D3> I have them in my game right now
12:53:46 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: Exactly, you don't
12:53:57 <Diablo-D3> itdoesnt seem to be effecting anything
13:01:51 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: Just for not getting others confused: in the EU we call streetcars "tram" or "trams",
13:02:03 <norbert79> Just a hint not getting us confused
13:03:34 <PeanutHorst> what about streetcars named desire?
13:03:36 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: ottd calls them streetcars
13:03:37 <PeanutHorst> what do you call them?
13:05:29 <planetmaker> ottd calls them many things... and ottd has a BE (default) and AE version
13:06:15 <planetmaker> and default openttd calls them trams, Diablo-D3
13:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think "Bimmelbahn" is primarily understood as "tram"
13:06:32 <planetmaker> you just have them called streetcars as OpenTTD detects that your localization is US
13:06:47 <erik1984> Nice discussions going on here :P
13:06:59 <erik1984> Anyhow have fun people I'm off
13:07:02 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Aye :)
13:07:28 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: No rails needed for "Bimmelbahn", well, not for all :)
13:07:32 <planetmaker> "Milchkannen-Express" is rather the same as "Bimmelbahn"
13:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause> never heard that...
13:07:53 <norbert79> "Bimmelbahn" on the other hand is shorter :)
13:08:22 <norbert79> Yet the British "Tram" is still the shortest.
13:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "Bimmelbahn" means "small branch railway" to me...
13:09:27 <planetmaker> though it could count as one. It usually means a real railway
13:10:34 <norbert79> yet in my opinion it's rather how one interprets it
13:10:49 <norbert79> but that comes from cultural differences
13:16:31 *** loopcoop has joined #openttd
13:26:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r22932 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#4766]: disable the white border on window creation for several windows (based on patch by monoid)
13:28:13 *** TWerkhoven has joined #openttd
13:39:51 <norbert79> Oops, morning for you :)
13:40:23 <Belugas> heelo to you too, norbert79
13:40:37 <Belugas> grr.. i need COFEEEEEEEEEEE
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13:50:08 <Diablo-D3> I wonder what would happen if ottd was ran with huge gigantic maps
13:50:36 <Diablo-D3> and had time passage slower
13:52:19 <Elukka> i believe there's patches for both
13:52:21 <lugo> like with bigger maps and daylength patch?
13:52:40 <Elukka> if you wanna try without compiling get chill's pack from the dev forum
13:52:55 <Elukka> maps go up to something ridiculous like 32 000 x 32 000
13:55:02 <Hirundo> that'd OOM any normal computer
13:55:57 <Hirundo> just the map would require 9GB
13:55:59 <planetmaker> @calc 32000*32000*9
13:55:59 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 9216000000
13:56:06 <planetmaker> @calc 32000*32000*9 / 1024**3
13:56:06 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 8.58306884766
13:56:28 <Elukka> i guess openttd just isn't made for anything that big
13:56:35 <Hirundo> Not to mention that running 4 million tile loop calls is not easily done in 30ms
13:56:43 <Pinkbeast> But (while I in no way disagree with the decision to make the map larger than you could possibly want) you wouldn't possibly want a map that big
13:57:04 <planetmaker> on big enough maps, time passage will be naturally slow ;-)
13:57:15 <norbert79> 1024x1024 is already way too much map to fill, and it needs lot of time to be built full
13:57:42 <norbert79> World of OpenTTD... WoO
13:59:20 <norbert79> Well, it would remind everyone back on older 8 bit times :)
13:59:35 <norbert79> where a loding of one application took between 5-30 minutes
14:02:03 <planetmaker> nah, never took that long
14:02:12 <planetmaker> application load times didn't really change
14:02:23 <norbert79> planetmaker: who had an 1541 or 1541-II, those couldn't comply
14:02:40 * planetmaker started on 10MHz 286
14:02:46 <norbert79> planetmaker: But what about those who had only a 1351? :) 300baud/sec for the rules :D
14:02:49 <Diablo-D3> how do I disable specific AIs?
14:02:58 <planetmaker> norbert79: no internet there
14:03:03 <norbert79> planetmaker: Aw, you have missed a lot
14:03:17 <Diablo-D3> because apparently AIs cant do grfs.
14:03:17 <planetmaker> it would have been ruining my parents
14:03:52 <norbert79> planetmaker: Have started with Commodore +4... Internet? I used to connect first time to the internet from home around 2000, 56kbit Modem, just for a few hours long
14:03:57 <planetmaker> yeah... cross-species procreation hardly works
14:04:32 <planetmaker> norbert79: I had a 33kbit modem first...
14:04:43 <planetmaker> in ... 1997 or so
14:05:05 <norbert79> well, I started with Commodore +4, then 486-Dx40 4MB RAm, no soundcard or CD-ROM back in 1996
14:05:18 <norbert79> Commodore +4 in 1987
14:05:22 <norbert79> imported from Austria
14:05:40 * Hirundo joins #computer-nostalgia
14:05:43 <norbert79> My grandfather has bought it for me
14:05:56 <Elukka> how impossible is the idea that some day openttd will be multithreaded?
14:06:00 <Elukka> unless it already is, i dunno
14:06:19 <planetmaker> welcome, Hirundo ;-)
14:06:39 <Hirundo> it already is in some parts; world generation, saving, newgrf scanning AFAIK
14:07:21 <planetmaker> Elukka: as impossible as re-writing the internals completely
14:07:32 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> I am no expert but I think the prospects of doing so for the normal work of moving vehicles is impossibly remote. Bits of the GUI, _maybe_.
14:07:52 <Hirundo> Problem is that all actions must execute in the same order across multiple clients
14:08:16 <planetmaker> _or_ the architecture wrt client / server needs complete re-design
14:08:21 <norbert79> Elukka: Workaround would be using clusters and running OpenTTD on them :))
14:08:41 <planetmaker> yeah... the mobile-phone-pocket cluster :-P
14:09:00 * Diablo-D3 started with a 6mhz 8088 with 512kb of memory AFTER upgrade
14:09:48 <Elukka> and now there's 1.2 ghz dual core phones
14:10:02 <Diablo-D3> not all mhz are created equal
14:10:03 <Pinkbeast> Or that ordering of actions could be relaxed. Every vehicle works out where it is after a tick simultaneously, but everything only uses the state at the start of the tick. Maybe? # yes this would also be _very hard_
14:10:12 <Elukka> yeah i know, a lot of it is about cpu architecture
14:10:21 <Diablo-D3> 0.5ghz G4s were pretty goddamned fast when all we had was 1.5ghz P3s
14:10:23 <Pinkbeast> Diablo> 512K? Tee hee.
14:10:35 <Diablo-D3> Pinkbeast: AFTER upgrade
14:10:39 <Hirundo> Pinkbeast: So you'd need to backup the entire game state at the start of each tick?
14:10:41 <Elukka> a 2.4 ghz i5 is lightyears beyond a 3 ghz p4
14:10:45 <Diablo-D3> I think it was like 128 to start with
14:10:50 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast: and how would you avoid two vehicles then occupying the same spot?
14:10:57 <Hirundo> And how about two trains that decide to enter the same signal block?
14:10:59 <Elukka> even without considering the extra cores
14:11:03 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: yeah, but it also has 2 int alus and 4 float alus per core
14:11:18 <Elukka> point is, it's still pretty amazing :P
14:11:27 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: which makes it twice as powerful as a P4 flat out
14:11:40 <V453000> planetmaker: new era of openttd - without signals?
14:11:41 <Diablo-D3> plus they finally pulled their head out of their ass and went back to using the P6 family
14:12:00 <planetmaker> and road vehicles behaving like ships. cool!
14:12:04 <planetmaker> easy peasy building
14:12:07 <Diablo-D3> the core 1 was a pentium 3++ (which survived through the pentium-m family)
14:12:12 <Elukka> my phone (which was cheap, none of that 600 eur iphone bull) loads websites and runs flash content considerably smoother than my dad's computer
14:12:13 <Pinkbeast> Hirundo> Trains already have to notice in advance they're going to stop at a signal.
14:12:21 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: well, look at webkit
14:12:22 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, noone really considered cars/trucks could leave the roads... :)
14:12:28 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: its faster than netscape 4 on a 486.
14:12:42 <Diablo-D3> at least when you're not throwing in dumb shit like bloated js shit
14:13:03 <planetmaker> norbert79: I rather meant it like "passing through eachother all the time"
14:13:18 <Diablo-D3> hrm, you know what?
14:13:23 <Diablo-D3> why isnt there offroad vehicles in ottd
14:13:33 <Hirundo> Pinkbeast: There is IIRC *some* braking before a red signal, but the final stop/pass check is only done once
14:14:00 <Diablo-D3> you know how in mp people use trains to kill enemy vehicles?
14:14:07 <Pinkbeast> Hirundo> Right, but that doesn't prevent simultaneity.
14:14:13 <Elukka> what if road vehicles pathed freely across the landscape and created road sprites whereever they go :P
14:14:23 <Diablo-D3> why dont vehicles stop infront of a train track crossing?
14:14:52 <Diablo-D3> no they dont, otherwise people wouldnt get banned for intentionally doing it
14:14:52 <Elukka> it's when the car is already on the tracks and a train comes through that they crash
14:14:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
14:15:09 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: they shouldnt be able to get onto the tracks
14:15:15 <Elukka> i really wish level crossings would be usable
14:15:17 <Diablo-D3> the graphics for the crossing are already down
14:15:18 <Pinkbeast> Diablo> The level crossing might not know the train is coming that way until it's 1 tile away at 80mph; the vehicle might be moving at 3mph.
14:15:29 <Diablo-D3> Pinkbeast: yeah theres that too
14:15:38 <Diablo-D3> which is kind of a nasty bug
14:15:50 <Diablo-D3> I'd like it if crossings would go down long before the train comes like irl
14:15:54 <Elukka> there's certainly code in the game that makes a road vehicle stop at a level crossing, it's just not enough
14:16:03 <Pinkbeast> In reality the level crossing has to be tied into the signal network, but at OTTD scales that might require level crossings to be in a long straight track section.
14:16:05 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: yeah but it only saves MY veh
14:16:12 <Pinkbeast> A _very_ long track section.
14:16:27 <Diablo-D3> cant ottd internally spawn stuff into the signal network?
14:16:30 <norbert79> V453000: IRL. Hmm. endless tiles in games, precise buildings, no edgy movement, etc etc.. Wow, how much for coding )
14:16:34 <Pinkbeast> So the track owner has to be prevented from building junctions anywhere near the level crossing.
14:16:48 <Diablo-D3> why not just REQUIRE building crossings
14:16:52 <V453000> norbert79: I just smile and think my own :P
14:16:53 <Pinkbeast> Now road players can grief rail players by building level crossings every 10 tiles on their network. Ooops.
14:16:55 <Diablo-D3> as in, its not automated
14:17:01 <norbert79> V453000: I was sarcastic too :)
14:17:18 <Diablo-D3> and make the road guys build the crossings or something
14:17:44 <V453000> Diablo-D3: just find a server with proper etiquette and admin
14:17:51 <Diablo-D3> V453000: oh sure but
14:17:57 <Diablo-D3> no server has my settings :<
14:18:09 <norbert79> I thought you are a pro on opening Servers
14:18:13 <V453000> if the settings are good, suggest them to someone?
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14:19:12 <Pinkbeast> Diablo> Consider about the worst case with existing grfs; an 80mph UKRS2 Spinner approaching a crossing which a 3mph steam bus wants to use.
14:19:14 <V453000> but wait, you play multiplayer and have problems with people. At the same time, no server has "your" settings. What is the problem to change a server then?
14:19:34 <Elukka> that's a really fringe case though, pinkbeast
14:19:46 <Elukka> even if a solution wouldn't work in every conceivable situation, it'd be better if it worked in most
14:19:51 <Pinkbeast> If the steam bus is to travel 1 tile, the Spinner needs to reserve the level crossing 80/3 =~ _27 tiles_ away.
14:19:54 <norbert79> Pinkbeast: and include an UFO landing just on the bus
14:20:17 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> A 300mph maglev and a 15 mph HEQS crawler 4 tiles long?
14:20:31 <Elukka> you don't build level crossings on maglev lines :P
14:20:38 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> Well, right now you can.
14:20:40 <norbert79> Elukka: Unless you are very brave :)
14:20:50 <Diablo-D3> Pinkbeast: do me a favor and use Diablo-D3: so my client highlights it
14:20:54 <Elukka> i think it'd be sufficient if level crossings were safe in sensible cases
14:21:02 <Elukka> nobody's going to drive a car over a TGV line
14:21:04 <Diablo-D3> Pinkbeast: all you have to do is type dia and press tab
14:21:18 <Diablo-D3> Elukka: yeah, why cant servers disable crossings altogether?
14:21:25 <Pinkbeast> Yes, because all the world uses the same IRC client as you.
14:21:27 <Diablo-D3> that would fix a LOT of bullshit
14:21:49 <Elukka> you can keep the ability to build them on maglev lines, just don't blame the game when crashes happen :P
14:22:00 <Diablo-D3> Pinkbeast: mirc, bitchx, irssi, ircii, mozilla chat thingy, xchat, and several others all support tab complete nicks.
14:22:05 <V453000> this conversation leads nowhere, Diablo-D3 just should start playing with "normal" people ... all that solves it
14:22:16 <Diablo-D3> V453000: you mean not play on public servers.
14:22:21 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> Even in more sensible cases, the exclusion zone is going to be quite wide, like 3 or 4 tiles.
14:22:27 <Diablo-D3> even on luuksland people are fucking dicks frequently
14:22:28 <V453000> not all public servers are full of retards
14:22:37 <V453000> yes, luukland is retarded by design
14:22:39 <Elukka> sure, but least it's possible to build it
14:22:48 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> But it doesn't prevent griefing.
14:22:57 <Diablo-D3> griefing has largely ruined ottd for me
14:23:05 <Elukka> openttd has lots of exciting griefing options
14:23:12 <Elukka> i never play it with anyone except a few friends
14:23:14 <Diablo-D3> like, REBUILD ROADS
14:23:25 <Diablo-D3> LOOK AT ME, IM FUCKING BUSSES
14:23:28 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: I don't about Pinkbeast, but your behaviour catched my eyes, and think, it might be annoying and arrogatn. And I think I am not alone with that; I go even further, I think you are already on Pinkbeast's ignore list.
14:23:31 <V453000> well, if you want a server with nice people, #openttdcoop.stable on 1.1.3RC1 is for you
14:23:33 <Pinkbeast> Either the rail owner _can_ build a junction in the exclusion zone and break it, or they can't and you can grief people by building regularly spaced crossings on their railway.
14:24:04 <Pinkbeast> norbert> You'd be wrong, although I don't really care if someone reads so slowly they need lines of IRC highlighted for them when the channel's this quiet.
14:24:14 <Diablo-D3> V453000: btw, did you look at how I'd want a perfect server?
14:24:21 <V453000> no and I cant say I care
14:24:23 <Elukka> i'm not really thinking of it from a griefing standpoint
14:24:27 <norbert79> Pinkbeast: I envy your patience...
14:24:38 <Diablo-D3> V453000: well Im just saying, theres stuff I'd like to see and apparently no one else does
14:24:55 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> Well, from a "making them work at all" perspective a level crossing could close any time there's a PBS reservation through it, and then you can build working ones. But doesn't that happen already??
14:25:21 <Elukka> i don't think i've used level crossings in the PBS era :D
14:25:23 <Pinkbeast> Might be a patch thing.
14:25:49 <Diablo-D3> V453000: ecs + av8 + fish + heqs + egrvts + industrial stations, city stations, rural stations, total town + total brudge, ukrs2 and 2+, and nars
14:26:08 <planetmaker> no, that works perfectly well, Pinkbeast
14:26:11 <Diablo-D3> and bigger train depots, and long vehicles v4, and luukland server just for citybuilder mode
14:26:22 <V453000> Diablo-D3: then make your own server
14:26:26 <Diablo-D3> V453000: well its either ecs or firs
14:26:34 <V453000> firs at least makes sense
14:26:35 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> There we go - you can build working ones with PBS signals if people cooperate, and if they don't griefing's inevitable.
14:26:38 <norbert79> V453000: Just out of curiosity: What's the problem with ECS?
14:26:46 <Diablo-D3> I just want something to make industries more complex
14:26:55 <Diablo-D3> V453000: okay, what does firs do that ecs doesnt?
14:26:55 <V453000> norbert79: it has no system what so ever (unlike firs)
14:27:05 <Pinkbeast> You _could_ fix it by letting vehicles interpenetrate - the real problem here is that a level crossing is effectively a kilometre wide.
14:27:06 <Diablo-D3> no system? in what way?
14:27:23 <V453000> there are a few spheres of cargoes with a certain purpose
14:27:25 <Diablo-D3> I can click industry layout in ecs, and the trees are HUGE
14:27:35 <V453000> some create goods, some improve other industries,..
14:27:41 <Pinkbeast> If the level crossing's closed, a vehicle has to stop exactly halfway across, but never gets crushed.
14:27:41 <V453000> but ecs has just a random mess of cargoes
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14:28:07 <Pinkbeast> FIRS supplies (which I like) are a bit of a contentious issue
14:28:16 <andythenorth> I have never played an ECS game, but I read the docs. I don't think it's bad. Lots of people like it.
14:28:30 <Yexo> <Diablo-D3> Elukka: yeah, why cant servers disable crossings altogether? <- servers can do that via means of a newgrf
14:28:30 <norbert79> andythenorth: No wonder, since the variety of goods
14:28:56 <Pinkbeast> Well, no-one's being made to use _every_ ECS vector
14:29:09 <V453000> and getting a farm produce 7k fruit in summer, 0 in winter is also awesome ........
14:29:24 <V453000> each industry with easily reachable high productions
14:29:44 <V453000> in the end, the playstyle you need to use for this is much simplier than "normal"
14:29:49 <Elukka> i prefer FIRS but ECS is certainly playable
14:29:54 <Pinkbeast> farms> That would be lovely if _all the rest_ of OTTD had seasonal operation in mind in any way whatsoever, as it is...
14:29:55 <norbert79> V453000: But you said IRL is not needed in OpenTTD yet you prefer such NewGRF's ;-) Just bugging
14:30:14 <V453000> I hate realistic ECS ... how is that related
14:30:28 <norbert79> FIRS shows more relation to real life, while ECS doesn't that much
14:30:37 <Diablo-D3> real life isnt always good
14:31:04 <norbert79> Diablo-D3: That sounds a bit like an oximoron from your 'mouth'
14:31:21 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> Oh, I've got it! If you're using a newgrf with track speeds, the level crossing could calculate the minimum safe RV speed and prohibit ones moving slower!
14:31:53 <Diablo-D3> norbert79: dude, trolling in #openttd isnt a good thing.
14:31:54 <norbert79> Pinkbeast: Sounds nice, might be useful in the main code too, if it works well
14:32:09 <V453000> I feel like vice versa, because FIRS defines some cargo groups and each of the groups works somehow. That it fits in how reality works is just another point. But ECS has no such gameplay-system what so ever, so I consider ECS much more oriented to real life, maybe it does not fit as much as FIRS, but it has no real "focus" I can see.
14:32:10 <Pinkbeast> norbert> Mmm, but absent track speeds it doesn't work.
14:32:34 <norbert79> Pinkbeast: And what about short tracks, where the tracks do not grow larger than 4-5 tiles
14:32:45 <norbert79> Pinkbeast: it would possibly stop all incoming traffic
14:33:02 <Diablo-D3> V453000: well wait, I dont understand
14:33:08 <Yexo> V453000: in ECS the "focus" would be the different vectors
14:33:09 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast: what about a vehicle going 80km/h (may cross) - but then being forced to stop due to jam? Or break-down?
14:33:24 <Pinkbeast> Well, yeah. But I see "crossings can block traffic" as an improvement on "crossings can kill vehicles"
14:33:29 <Diablo-D3> V453000: you have, say, an iron ore mine. you take the ore to an iron smelting plant, then its turned into metal, and then you have another industry that takes metal
14:33:38 <V453000> Yexo: yes, but in the end when you put the vectors together, it is just a massive mess
14:33:50 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker> If a vehicle breaks down on a crossing, it may get smooshed, That's fine, it _happens_. The lookahead for jams, damn, you've got me there.
14:33:57 <Yexo> too many vectors creates a mess indeed :)
14:34:02 <Pinkbeast> But to be fair RV route selection could use more lookahead anyway.
14:34:02 <Diablo-D3> V453000: and you have oil, taken to an oil refinery, produces petrol and chemicals, petrol gets delivered to something, chemicals get delivered to something else
14:34:09 <Yexo> but I never played for long with ECS vectors
14:34:25 <V453000> me neither - ended up unplayable :)
14:34:28 <Yexo> the graphics are really nice, but imo they don't fit the ttd nor the opengfx style
14:34:33 <V453000> yes, graphics are awesome
14:34:50 <V453000> they dont really fit, but they make their own style which is nice :)
14:35:01 <norbert79> Yexo: Yes, also found a bit distrubing seing some graphics out of context
14:35:30 <Pinkbeast> The downside is that now I can grief RV users by building high-speed track on their roads and I don't even have to build any trains to smoosh their vehicles.
14:39:37 <Diablo-D3> V453000: so what can firs actually do for me?
14:39:52 <andythenorth> and paints exterior walls
14:40:12 <andythenorth> it is green on thursdays, but blue before 8pm
14:40:29 <Pinkbeast> And you can make tiny OTTD people happy by supplying them with moist delicious beer
14:40:29 <planetmaker> to me that blue looked rather pink
14:40:30 <andythenorth> I don't much like it :P
14:40:43 <Diablo-D3> because ECS isnt meant to be that you do EVERY SINGLE VECTOR FULLY
14:41:00 <Diablo-D3> its meant that you focus on one, and other players focus on others, and you dont directly compete on resources
14:41:28 <Eddi|zuHause> who forbids you from competing?
14:41:44 <Yexo> Diablo-D3: that's just your interpretation and certainly not the original intent
14:41:55 <Yexo> since ECS has been created before OpenTTD multiplayer was stable, so it was created for singleplayer games
14:41:57 <Diablo-D3> Yexo: thats how Ive seen it played
14:42:04 <Diablo-D3> it tends to balance
14:42:09 <George> V453000: easily reachable high productions in the end, the playstyle you need to use for this is much simplier than "normal" - looks like you did not play ECS for years ;)
14:42:12 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: no one, competing is legit
14:42:26 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: most servers dont like it when you steal from secondary industries you're not also feeding though
14:42:33 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: sorta like normal openttd
14:42:45 <Diablo-D3> ECS has three and I think a four layer deep chain
14:42:53 <peter1138> ah, the crazy mindset that believes they _own_ the goods
14:43:04 <Diablo-D3> peter1138: yeah, which gets retarded
14:43:14 <Diablo-D3> I dont "play to win"
14:43:18 <Diablo-D3> I find ottd relaxing
14:43:20 <Pinkbeast> I think I'd be happier with competing if it worked in some better way than "the two best stations get everything"
14:43:45 <Diablo-D3> but you have people who are just dicks and rush through everything and make ugly networks and do dumb shit
14:43:47 <Pinkbeast> Even if that means a million tons of coal piling up at an RV station served by two asthmatic horses and wait for the rating to drop.
14:44:29 <planetmaker> damn you Pinkbeast! I nearly spillt my drink!
14:44:39 <Diablo-D3> hell, sometimes I play entire games without even using trains.
14:45:34 <Diablo-D3> V453000: so you dont like ecs because its ^ that complex?
14:46:05 <V453000> no, I dont like ecs because it is chaos and has weird features like farms producing 7k in summer, 0 in winter
14:46:22 <Diablo-D3> you cant turn that off
14:46:59 <V453000> you can turn off many things like stockpiling afaik
14:47:04 <V453000> but I dont think this farm effect
14:47:23 <Diablo-D3> well I might be wrong, but I swear I saw one that effects seasonal stuff with farms
14:47:43 <V453000> still. I have seen way too many people play ecs and after seeing the effects it had on their playstyle, I have my own opinion I am not going to change .. needless to argue.
14:48:09 <Diablo-D3> firs style is identical to normal openttd style?
14:48:20 <Pinkbeast> I would suggest a) regard all stations owned by one player as one for the purpose of determining the total cargo allotment b) allot at least _some_ cargo to all stations (but less to lower rankings) and c) use the amount of waiting cargo to temporarily reduce the ranking
14:49:06 <George> Yes. ID is written in the vector
14:49:11 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: waiting cargo on a station already reduces the station rating
14:49:13 <Pinkbeast> I know bad service reduces the rating in the long run anyway.
14:49:22 <George> In the other vectors arrows have only names
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14:49:32 <Diablo-D3> btw, you know what would improve things?
14:49:44 <Diablo-D3> cargo not waiting at the station, but at the industry
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14:50:31 <planetmaker> ah, so only name + ID means 'defined here'
14:50:56 <Pinkbeast> But right now it takes the game forever to notice those asthmatic horses aren't taking the coal away. The rating needs to change slowly for gameplay, but where the coal actually goes should react on the fly to waiting cargo piles.
14:51:11 <Diablo-D3> does Pinkbeast have me on ignore?
14:51:42 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: the only point of the rating is for determining how cargo is distributed
14:51:49 <Pinkbeast> Oh, yes, totally. Wait, how did I know you were asking? :-)
14:51:55 <Yexo> if you propose another method for that, why not remove station rating completely?
14:51:55 <Diablo-D3> [10:49:44] <Diablo-D3> cargo not waiting at the station, but at the industry
14:52:06 <Diablo-D3> I honestly wouldnt mind seeing this
14:52:16 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: station rating has no influence on towns at all
14:52:22 <Yexo> town rating is a completely separate mechanic
14:52:22 <planetmaker> what is an 'indirect cargo', George?
14:52:45 <Pinkbeast> Yexo> Goodness me, so it does
14:53:39 <Pinkbeast> OK, but I still think there's a need for a "long term performance" component and an "immediate situation" component.
14:53:52 <Pinkbeast> And the first of those is pretty much what rating is now.
14:54:14 <Pinkbeast> So rating would be "old rating" minus "n% for each m cargo waiting".
14:54:25 <Yexo> and "immediate situation" would only be the amount of cargo waiting?
14:54:42 <Pinkbeast> Depends if we can think of something else useful.
14:54:43 <George> planetmaker: Yes Name + ID
14:55:12 <Pinkbeast> For example, stations with no cargo waiting might be preferred if they have a vehicle loading.
14:55:51 <Pinkbeast> But I still think the "old rating" component should be reported to the player (because they get a separate report of the waiting cargo anyway)
14:56:49 <Pinkbeast> I think the important thing is sending _some_ cargo to every station with a >0 rating and not allowing multiple stations for the same company to double-dip, though.
14:57:59 <George> <@planetmaker> what is an 'indirect cargo', George? - the cargo, that is not processed into production. For example Coal + Ore = Steel (Direct cargo). Vehicels affect Coal mine production, but it is not transformed into cargo. If you have 100000t coal body, you would not get more coal regardless amount of vehicles delivered. Vehicles is indirect cargo (same as fertiliser)
14:58:32 <norbert79> what about randomized methods? Some stations would use a method of using reliable trasnporting companies, while other would use the method of "first at the station gets more"
14:58:55 <George> Glass and dyes are direct cargoes
14:59:09 <norbert79> George: Cars use glass too :)
14:59:24 <George> They are transformed into cargo
14:59:36 <Pinkbeast> norbert> This is not a bad idea, but it's a separate idea. I'm just trying to address the "people get annoyed by competing for cargo not least because it doesn't work well" thing.
14:59:51 <Pinkbeast> Well, actually, I'm blathering about it on #openttd and not writing any code, alas.
14:59:55 <George> I mean glass allows you to produce MORE vehicles
15:00:38 <norbert79> George: I have never seen any firms making double cars, just because they hit jackpot on glass-lottery, while they lack on steel :)
15:01:18 <George> Correct. In case no steel you get no cars
15:01:56 <George> but in case 100t steel you get 10 cars, and in case 100t steel and 10t glass you get 11 cars
15:01:58 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: you don't have to start writing code. Just thinking of a good formula on how to distribute the goods would go a long way already
15:02:30 <norbert79> George: This is where ECS is not good at. Even with 100t steel and 10t of glass you should be able producing only 10 cars
15:02:58 <norbert79> George: I go even further. No goods shall be produced, if not all ingridients are present.
15:03:08 <andythenorth> norbert79: that suck
15:03:23 <Yexo> norbert79: I disagree, it needs far too much micromanaging to get that correct
15:03:24 <andythenorth> it's crappy gameplay
15:03:36 <norbert79> andythenorth: Well, still, I would be happy to play it that way. You could still broing glass to the factory, but for pricy cars get all the things at one place...
15:03:57 <George> norbert79: Not correct. ECS assumes, that some small amounts of ingredients the industry gets itself (from nowhere)
15:04:22 <George> As you can see, secondory industries have production even if you do not deliver cargo
15:04:25 <andythenorth> norbert79: it's only interesting in PBI where it's also combined with stockpiles + such to make evil gameplay
15:04:27 <norbert79> George: Hmm, this is a problem I see, that was exactly the rewason why in general buying from other companies the money goes nowhere.
15:04:42 <Pinkbeast> Yexo> Well, I would distribute the cargo directly proportional to station rating, with a cap of the amount that would be delivered under the present system.
15:04:44 <George> But on the high production levels this does not work.
15:04:59 <George> You have to deliver all ingridients
15:05:02 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: currently the cap is the highest station rating
15:05:16 <norbert79> I would still see options in such gameplay, since you can make things out of materials seperatly, but together they produce something else, for which you can more money from.
15:05:37 <Pinkbeast> If a given company has multiple stations their quota is that for one station with their highest rating, but then distribute that between their stations on the same basis
15:05:41 <norbert79> Wood -> Furniture. Wood + Steel -> planes... Just a rough example
15:05:49 <Yexo> if the industry produces 200 items of some cargo and you have stations with rating 40%, 50% and 60% the total amount distributed it 120 items (60% of 200)
15:06:10 <planetmaker> thanks for the explanation, George
15:06:17 <Yexo> that 120 is that distributed over the statios with rating 50% and 60%
15:06:17 <Pinkbeast> Where "rating" here is "old rating" minus (say) 10% for each week's production waiting at the station.
15:06:31 <Pinkbeast> Yeah, I'm reading that Wiki page.
15:06:38 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: there is no such thing as "one week's production"
15:06:53 <Pinkbeast> I don't understand why not, I'm afraid.
15:07:02 <norbert79> Yexo: Tell that to the producing companies :D
15:07:10 <norbert79> Yexo: manufacturing...
15:07:13 <George> norbert79: You get much more mony in case you deliver all the materials, because you have much higher output
15:07:30 <Yexo> because industry production is done by industries, OpenTTD can't accurately predict the production of the next day
15:07:56 <George> norbert79: Funiture factory would never produce planes. Only goods
15:08:11 <Pinkbeast> Use the value for last month's production reported by the GUI (with a minimum cap so we don't divide by zero above hee hee)
15:08:18 <norbert79> George: I somehow got you, since the game cannot handle the ammount of importers/companies, for which my logic would be useful, since if one skips game, there goes produciton, which would be similar to real life, but you can sure block production on cars for example.
15:08:32 <Yexo> last month's production is per industry, I think we'd need something per station in this case
15:08:43 <norbert79> George: Where in real life a new importer is soon to be found
15:08:43 <Yexo> which would be a new statistic, but that could be added
15:09:11 <norbert79> George: So the addon must be able to produce the goods somehow. Pity, but you are right :)
15:09:43 <norbert79> George: So yeah, I see your logic.
15:12:15 <Pinkbeast> No, I think per-station is wrong here. What would be the figure?
15:12:56 <Yexo> just for the "immediate rating" I mean, the figure would be the amount of cargo delivered to the station last month, just for comparison with the current cargo amount
15:13:02 <George> norbert79: Anyway, feedbacks for ECS are welcome. Writing them on the forums is easier to manager them, than here, though
15:13:09 <Pinkbeast> That sounds like a recipe for feedback loops.
15:13:43 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: this time in a good way
15:13:49 <Pinkbeast> It increases the rating penalty for waiting cargo if the station has a low rating because then it got less cargo delivered...
15:14:45 <Yexo> but if less cargo is delivered it should be very easy to transport it all
15:15:02 <Yexo> if you still can't do that your transportation is simply crap and you deserve even less cargo
15:15:19 <Pinkbeast> But all that works just as well if we're comparing it with the industry's total production.
15:15:36 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: but what if a single station gets cargo from 10 industries at the same time?
15:15:59 <Yexo> and that can't be done for passenger stations, since the production of every individual house is very low
15:16:24 <Pinkbeast> Passengers> count the total available production.
15:16:39 <Yexo> instead of the actual amount delivered to the station we could use the maximum amount that could have been delivered to the station
15:16:45 <Pinkbeast> In fact, always count the total available production, maybe? If there are ten coalmines, the stacks of coal can get ten times as big
15:16:58 <Yexo> that is the industry production if a single industry, and the sum of industry production if there are multiple industries producing the same cargo
15:17:17 <Yexo> ok, so we thought of the same thing :)
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15:42:54 <Diablo-D3> I wonder how many people play solo with no AI
15:43:12 <Pinkbeast> That's how I normally play. The AIs are vexing in various ways
15:43:38 <Diablo-D3> I mean, no server wants to run with the settings I want, the few servers that have similar settings are always emty
15:43:50 <Diablo-D3> and even if I just play vanilla openttd, servers are full of assholes
15:44:20 <Diablo-D3> and AIs wouldnt be so bad, but they cant play with grfs that change shit around
15:44:27 <planetmaker> we meanwhile know that all.
15:44:35 <planetmaker> you repeat this every 6 hours
15:44:44 <Diablo-D3> you keep saying "setup a server"
15:44:52 <Yexo> <Diablo-D3> and AIs wouldnt be so bad, but they cant play with grfs that change shit around <- that depends on what those grfs change
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15:45:00 <Yexo> AIs nowadays can cope with quite a long of changes
15:45:17 <Diablo-D3> Yexo: ECS usually is enough to stop an AI
15:45:27 <Pinkbeast> But FIRS isn't, and FIRS is a long way from vanilla.
15:45:46 <Pinkbeast> The main thing I notice is atrociously mad vehicle selection with non-default vehicles
15:45:55 <Yexo> biggest problem is "requiring multiple cargoes to produce anything" and "stop accepting one cargo if the other doesn't get delivered"
15:46:02 <planetmaker> Diablo-D3: I gave you that advice once
15:46:14 <planetmaker> But you now whine in this channel for... how long? 48 hoursß
15:46:21 <planetmaker> How bad everything is etc pp
15:46:26 <Diablo-D3> planetmaker: no, I wasnt even in the channel for about 24 hours
15:46:34 <Pinkbeast> Experimentally I tried UKRS2+2cc+one of every AI that builds trains
15:46:41 <Diablo-D3> the problem is openttd is one of the few games I keep coming back to
15:46:44 <Diablo-D3> and maybe I shouldnt
15:46:54 <Diablo-D3> but there just arent any fun games anymore
15:46:55 <Pinkbeast> ... most of them fix six 2cc pax carriages to a 2-2-0 Planet and then wonder why it loses money.
15:47:09 <Diablo-D3> Pinkbeast: most implies not all
15:47:19 <Diablo-D3> which ones didnt fail?
15:47:30 <Ammler> Diablo-D3: you see how boring you are, your less than 24 hours felt like 48 hours :-P
15:47:45 <Pinkbeast> It's a while back but I seem to recall Admiral got it together once the second or third loco emerged.
15:47:49 <Diablo-D3> Ammler: dude, we're in #openttd, its not quake.
15:48:06 <Diablo-D3> Pinkbeast: how do I restrict the game to only use specific AIs?
15:48:22 <Pinkbeast> To be fair, it's not completely obvious to the AI that the Planet can't actually pull freight _at all_
15:48:37 <Pinkbeast> AI settings let you put specific AIs in specific slots (or only download the ones you want)
15:48:39 <Diablo-D3> isnt there functions for the AI to call that?
15:49:19 <planetmaker> bah... way too noisy here
15:49:26 <Pinkbeast> I don't mean "it's prohibited"; I mean "the engine's power and tractive effort make freight totally impractical."
15:49:43 <Diablo-D3> huh, I wonder why AI cant make the calculation then
15:49:50 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: can files be deleted from the devzone? the wagon sprites thread is clogged up with lots of unneeded old versions of sprites
15:50:05 <Diablo-D3> I thought I saw addons that just provide large libraries for AI to use
15:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i'm pretty sure they do
15:50:19 <Yexo> <Diablo-D3> huh, I wonder why AI cant make the calculation then <- they probably can, but that doesn't mean all AIs actually implement that
15:50:21 <planetmaker> they can... but... why? They serve a purpose in a way
15:50:40 <Pinkbeast> I think the issue is that AI developers don't consider the edge case where the right number of freight wagons is zero, which is not really their fault.
15:50:58 <Elukka> i saw that oberhümer had deleted some of his own sprites but i can't seem to delete mine
15:51:01 <Yexo> how can the right number of freight wagons be zero?
15:51:12 <Diablo-D3> Yexo: the train engine is the wrong engine for the task
15:51:18 <Pinkbeast> Yexo> I mean, it's not practical to pull freight at all.
15:51:54 <planetmaker> yes, there are edit rights involved. oberhumer is one of the project devlopers by what the project says
15:51:58 <planetmaker> thus he can edit tasks
15:52:06 <Pinkbeast> The engine is wrong, and it's the only engine in 1830.
15:52:16 <Diablo-D3> er, cant I add AI through the online content window anymore?
15:53:07 <Yexo> Diablo-D3: in the main menu chose "AI settings"
15:53:15 <Yexo> you can download them from the online content
15:53:27 <Diablo-D3> I must be blind, I see no AI in the list
15:53:44 <Yexo> it depends from where you open the online content window
15:53:46 <planetmaker> Elukka: from my POV deleting the attachment is not a good thing in that case either, though. It destroys part of the issues history
15:53:47 <Diablo-D3> and I used to be able to a few versions back before the new newgrf settings window
15:53:52 <Yexo> if you open it from the enwgrf window it's filtered to newgrfs
15:54:02 <Yexo> if you open it from the "select AI' window it's filtered to AIs
15:54:05 <Diablo-D3> thats... kinda nonobvious
15:54:08 <Pinkbeast> But the AI settings window lets you open it and what Yexo said
15:54:11 <Yexo> if you open it from the main menu it shows all kind of content
15:55:17 <planetmaker> or do you feel you should be emberrassed of the first versions? I don't think so
15:56:34 <andythenorth> planetmaker: wrong room?
15:57:09 <planetmaker> no? Elukka asked in this channel
15:57:21 * andythenorth was missing the thread :m
15:59:21 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: I can see the problem with the 2-2-0 planet. Which engine available in 1920 would you find better suited?
16:00:12 <Diablo-D3> Supports NewGRF vehicles (tested with Zephyris' eGRVTS, George's Long Vehicles v4, and PikkaBird?'s HOVS)
16:00:12 <Diablo-D3> Supports NewGRF house and industry sets (tested with TTRS, George's ECS Vectors and PikkaBird's PBI)
16:00:23 <Diablo-D3> I wonder if it works as well as it claims to
16:00:32 <Pinkbeast> Yexo> 1920? Lots. I'm just saying, train AIs don't handle the UKRS2 in 1830 case well, but it is pretty pathological and I don't see it as developers' faults.
16:02:28 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: it doesn't have to be anybodies 'fault' for there to be room for improvement
16:03:30 <Pinkbeast> Indeed... but equally, when one notices room for improvement, I think it's good to make it clear that you aren't criticising anyone.
16:03:35 <Pinkbeast> Unless they're an idiot. :-)
16:04:05 <Diablo-D3> I wonder what would happen if I started the game in 1700
16:04:27 <Pinkbeast> You'd spend a very long time pushing around eGRTVTS horse vehicles and Sailing Ships, at best.
16:04:39 <Diablo-D3> I have nars and ukrs2 too
16:04:51 <Pinkbeast> They start in 1830, so not pertinent here
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16:05:45 <Pinkbeast> Also all the buildings will look really silly
16:07:07 <Yexo> a 2-2-0 planet with 182 tonnes of coal can reach 25 km/h, but with 208 tonnes of coal it can't go faster than 1km/h
16:07:18 <Pinkbeast> I think these days you can start in 1AD if you like. "Well, the cargo manifest says five loaves and seven fishes, but there sure is a lot of it now."
16:07:27 <Yexo> and I have absolutely no clue how to calculate the maximum amount an engine can pull
16:07:46 <Pinkbeast> 25 km/h # until it hits a hill, when it stops.
16:07:47 <Diablo-D3> Yexo: cars have weights
16:08:02 <Diablo-D3> ... yeah, I see the problem
16:08:05 <Yexo> Pinkbeast: ok, hills are a big problem indeed :p
16:08:08 <Pinkbeast> You can build loaded-only-downhill lines and that's it (and they aren't super profitable either)
16:08:19 <Yexo> yes, I can calculate the weight of the cars
16:08:21 <Diablo-D3> so if planet sucks so much, why is it in the grf?
16:08:32 <Yexo> but how do I calculate what the maximum weight is that an engine can pull?
16:08:35 <Pinkbeast> Er... it doesn't suck. It's better than any other engine available in 1830.
16:08:38 <Diablo-D3> Yexo: read the source
16:08:47 <Diablo-D3> Pinkbeast: if it cant pull a lot of freight, why have it?
16:09:01 <Pinkbeast> a) It's real and b) pax services.
16:09:12 <Diablo-D3> yeah, but its not pax only
16:09:18 <Yexo> thanks for the very constructive answer Diablo-D3, but I didn't plan on simulating every engine
16:09:22 <valhallasw> Yexo: to accurately calculate that, you would need more details
16:09:40 <Diablo-D3> the game knows how to calculate it because it does...
16:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <Yexo> but how do I calculate what the maximum weight is that an engine can pull? <-- power / speed = rolling resistance + wind resistance
16:09:48 <Yexo> valhallasw: I don't need "accurate", a rough approximation is enough
16:09:49 <Diablo-D3> why cant openttd just warn you what you did is stupid?
16:10:20 <Pinkbeast> Because if you're playing with UKRS2 starting in or before 1830 you probably know enough about railways to know it's stupid.
16:10:20 <valhallasw> Yexo: calculate the initial acceleration, and determine a sensible minimum?
16:10:50 <Yexo> <Pinkbeast> Because if you're playing with UKRS2 starting in or before 1830 you probably know enough about railways to know it's stupid. <- that is a very wrong assumption
16:10:52 <Pinkbeast> ... or just if you understand what "maximum tractive effort" means in gameplay
16:11:16 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't you need to calculate for going up a slope?
16:11:18 <Diablo-D3> heh, if AI would just choose that, it'd "fix" a lot of bugs
16:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: you can factor in slopes as well
16:12:07 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: ok. Given an AI can't get the wind resistance yet (I could take a constant for it), I just need to calculate the rolling resistance
16:12:07 <Diablo-D3> maybe sort all engines by, say, power and tractive effort and ignore speed
16:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> add + angle*mass*g
16:12:45 <Pinkbeast> Yexo> Really? I would think the experience of using those very early engines would be deeply frustrating for a player who doesn't at least slightly value the experience because they're real.
16:13:06 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: but what mass? the mass of the whole train, or just the max mass of the segment of the train that's on the short slope?
16:13:33 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: the game mechanics is totally flawed in that respect anyway
16:14:23 <valhallasw> Yexo: I doubt saying 'tractive effort > rolling resistance' gives you what you want - after all, a train that accelerates very very slowly still does that
16:14:26 <b_jonas> but anyway, I think you need some correction for slopes, because very few people will build only completely flat rails.
16:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: but anyway, the whole train, and the angle is calculated by the amount of slopes the train is on
16:14:49 <valhallasw> Yexo: In the end, I think you want to know 'can I sensibly use this locomotive for this train'
16:15:15 <Yexo> valhallasw: at the point I'm choosing an engine I have no clue about the wagons yet
16:15:22 <b_jonas> some NewGRFs at least export short human-readable usage descriptions for trains
16:15:27 <b_jonas> for train engines I maen
16:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: and the impact of slopes is different if the train is already running, or if it is starting up
16:15:52 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: that latter is at least realistic
16:15:57 <Pinkbeast> Eddi> I think you may be letting perfection be the enemy of good.
16:16:08 <b_jonas> Pinkbeast: no, sorry, I forced him there
16:17:24 <Diablo-D3> so is pathzilla the best AI?
16:17:41 <Pinkbeast> I'm not sure that "best AI" is a meaningful concept
16:17:42 <Diablo-D3> it seems admiral is good, but screws itself on alternate road grfs
16:18:30 <b_jonas> Admiral seems to usually work well for me. Also, it's better than it used to be.
16:18:40 <Pinkbeast> I'm pretty sure Admiral doesn't make too bad a hash of things with eGRVTS
16:18:41 <b_jonas> Though currently I'm playing a game without AI.
16:19:00 <Pinkbeast> It did love to fill the road with HEQS crawlers last time I tried it with HEQS
16:19:09 <Diablo-D3> Im using heqs too :<
16:19:25 <Pinkbeast> In terms of dealing well with random collections of newgrfs, though, NoCAB is the best I've found.
16:19:30 <Yexo> Also, it's better than it used to be. <- That's funny, it hasn't been updated for over a year (or 2 years now?)
16:19:56 <b_jonas> Newgrfs can mess with the game in such powerful way that no AI can be prepared for everything.
16:20:20 <b_jonas> Yexo: I've been playing openttd for longer than that
16:20:31 <b_jonas> with long pauses when I tried to be productive
16:23:19 <Diablo-D3> nocab seems to rape admiralai in normal gameplay vs
16:23:55 <Pinkbeast> Or "beat", as we say when we're older than 13.
16:25:19 <Elukka> <@planetmaker> Elukka: from my POV deleting the attachment is not a good thing in that case either, though. It destroys part of the issues history
16:25:30 <Diablo-D3> is this out of date?
16:25:34 <Diablo-D3> it says pathzilla cant do trains
16:25:45 <Elukka> well, i don't have a problem with my old crap being out there, but i do stupid stuff like uploading a version then noticing the lighting is off in a couple places then uploading a nearly identical fixed version :D
16:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> wiki pages are notoriously out of date
16:27:01 <planetmaker> Elukka: that happens, yes. You're not alone with that :-)
16:30:46 <Elukka> see it's not just a compartment coach, it's a version 2, fixed compartment coach :P
16:35:01 <pjpe> are we ever going to see these in motion
16:35:43 <planetmaker> Elukka: it's actually that one can learn from that process, too :-)
16:35:46 <pjpe> this smooth turning thing is exciting
16:35:50 <planetmaker> by just comparing the work steps
16:35:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think oberhümer's november release date is awfully realistic
16:36:26 <Elukka> you'll see them in motion if these fine people think they're good enough and get them coded :P
16:36:33 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: for CETS?
16:36:44 <planetmaker> hm... I'd not yet set a date :-)
16:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: oberhümer kinda wanted a release date similar to DBSetXL 0.9 ;)
16:37:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but we need to get the needed openttd patches into trunk before a public release
16:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and before we do that, we need to figure out what exactly is actually needed
16:38:44 <planetmaker> I don't like an externally - forced time schedule, though. Exactly that's why ^
16:38:44 <Diablo-D3> the horse drawn carriages dont work :<
16:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Diablo-D3: they are buggy with realistic acceleration
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16:39:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so better turn that off
16:40:43 <Elukka> it's perhaps best to set internal deadlines rather than anything that might seem like a promise to others
16:40:52 <Elukka> deadlines are good just to make people work more
16:40:53 <Diablo-D3> ithe animations even work
16:41:07 <Diablo-D3> and horses are randomly colored
16:41:08 <Elukka> they also make a funny noise when they whoosh past
16:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and they make funny noise when they break down :p
16:42:06 <Eddi|zuHause> (the horses, not the deadlines)
16:42:09 <Diablo-D3> and its articulated
16:42:19 <Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: deadlines make funny noises when they breakdown
16:42:42 <Diablo-D3> it usually involves a balding middle aged guy bitching at someone loudly, even though the corner office door is shut
16:44:54 <Elukka> i believe deadlines also make a funny noise when they break down
16:45:25 <planetmaker> deadlines sometimes indeed make funny noises when they break down :-P
16:47:14 <V453000> lines, but drunk to death
16:51:53 <V453000> dont worry, enough beer for both you and lines :P
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16:59:15 * Pinkbeast wonders if anything can be done about transfer credits
17:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> two options are: 1) abolish transfer credits, always pay real money for the partial route. but this allows abuse. 2) record all partial routes and the vehicle involved in the cargo packet, and distribute transfer credits on final delivery. this potentially increases memory footprint
17:04:29 *** Progman has joined #openttd
17:07:06 <planetmaker> for the reason of 1) that seems not like a good solution
17:08:08 <planetmaker> 2) is not a principal problem (OpenTTD is not a big memory consumer atm - but cargo packets can be plenty, so that it in this particular case is not uncritical either)
17:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and i had an unfinished/buggy patch wrt 1)
17:12:08 <Elukka> what's the ETA of getting the first CETS sprites in game?
17:12:42 <Elukka> i realize there's probably no- yeah
17:12:48 <Elukka> is it a month or a year thing :D
17:13:19 <planetmaker> In principle sprites can be added, I guess. But Eddi has a much better overview there
17:13:39 <andythenorth> what's the ETA on FIRS? Someone should tell me :P
17:13:51 <planetmaker> (for the next nightly)
17:13:52 <Pinkbeast> I had an intermediate idea, actually.
17:14:27 <Elukka> FIRS is cool and very playable
17:14:31 <Elukka> ETA was... some months ago? :P
17:14:40 <andythenorth> Elukka: you're using FIRS 0.6.x ?
17:14:44 <Pinkbeast> Rather than track every place a cargo packet goes, which could make them huge especially in cargodisty games, track the last station it came from.
17:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: that doesn't work.
17:15:24 <Pinkbeast> Every time a cargo packet arrives somewhere, work out what the right transfer payment percentage would have been for the previous leg
17:16:16 <Elukka> i do wish turning off destinations for industries worked in YACD but it is growing on me
17:16:17 <Pinkbeast> Stations track those percentages, so if station A gets a packet of cargo X from station B it knows the right transfer payment percentage to use
17:16:30 <andythenorth> Elukka: FIRS + YACD will be better soon
17:16:35 <Elukka> FIRS + YACD + 2cc is triple-plus hard :D
17:16:46 <andythenorth> Elukka: do you know how to build FIRS trunk?
17:16:47 <Pinkbeast> Maybe it needs to be finer grained than that - divide it up by type of vehicle? Order list?
17:17:38 <planetmaker> :-) compile newgrfs
17:17:54 <andythenorth> oh you could get the nightly build
17:18:04 <andythenorth> it won't work with YACD build though
17:18:22 <Elukka> yeah i haven't the faintest idea how to compile anything
17:18:26 <andythenorth> I think FIRS + YACD will be *much* better with the changed station rating algorithm
17:18:40 <andythenorth> basically YACD + FIRS currently sucks because there's hardly any cargo produced
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17:20:37 <andythenorth> Elukka: the station ratings are much higher for much longer
17:20:51 <andythenorth> this means that more of the industry output is sent to the station
17:21:05 <andythenorth> normally with YACD I get ratings at about 20%
17:21:19 <andythenorth> so a farm producing 16t / month, over 4 destinations...
17:21:35 <Elukka> i wish i could run the new version
17:21:42 <andythenorth> so less than 1t per destination
17:21:48 <andythenorth> so 2 years to load a truck
17:22:05 <planetmaker> shrink the truck :-P
17:22:14 <andythenorth> you'd think with a truck waiting for 2 years, you'd get better ratings :/
17:22:19 <andythenorth> but you don't :P
17:22:39 <planetmaker> well, that's a yacd issue
17:22:45 <Elukka> i suppose one day someone will compile things :P
17:22:45 <planetmaker> not a newgrf-solvable thing
17:23:02 <andythenorth> planetmaker: we might have solved it already
17:23:14 <andythenorth> I haven't tested in a YACD game, but I think it will be much better
17:23:26 <andythenorth> the new station rating algorithm
17:23:42 <andythenorth> the 100% rating setting in FIRS is *stupid* and possibly we should remove that :)
17:23:48 <planetmaker> well... that's rather a hack than a solution
17:23:54 <planetmaker> a newgrf must not try to solve the issue
17:24:07 <andythenorth> I think we discussed that and disagreed with you :)
17:24:08 <planetmaker> it should work without taking care of yacd
17:24:14 <Pinkbeast> Also OTTD hates having a truck that runs around all the farms picking up whatever they've got
17:24:17 <planetmaker> openttd must solve that
17:24:28 <andythenorth> I'd rather ottd didn't solve it
17:24:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth: if all you have is a nail, all the tools look like a hammer.
17:24:44 <planetmaker> But that doesn't help it here really
17:24:54 <andythenorth> if you put the option into the game, it's yet another point of variation that FIRS has to balance against
17:25:15 <andythenorth> so by adding that setting you put *2 on all FIRS testing tasks
17:25:24 <andythenorth> unless the setting has n options
17:25:35 <andythenorth> that you put *n, where n is a sane number of discrete steps
17:25:59 <andythenorth> the same argument applies to having it as a parameter in FIRS of course
17:27:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how would ottd solve it?
17:27:26 <andythenorth> to avoid the nail / hammer issue
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17:28:47 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the source of the problem lies within openttd which breaks existing stuff. Thus openttd must solve it at least somehow. There's more industry NewGRFs than FIRS
17:28:56 <planetmaker> thus the FIRS solution is even inferior
17:29:05 <andythenorth> what would be better?
17:29:11 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: which side of a wagon do we want brakeman's cabs/platforms on?
17:29:29 <andythenorth> planetmaker: would it be better to have same adjustment to station ratings, but in ottd?
17:29:30 <planetmaker> station rating should remain at sane levels
17:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: probably the end
17:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: put the station rating thing into a separate grf
17:30:55 <andythenorth> not maintainably
17:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then don't ;)
17:31:05 <andythenorth> not without publishing it from the same repo + codebase as FIRS
17:31:08 <andythenorth> which seems pointless
17:31:21 <andythenorth> separate grf instead of parameter? Seems bonkers
17:31:54 <andythenorth> isn't the fix a rewrite of station rating, with advanced setting
17:32:03 <andythenorth> ship 'original' as default, offer n variations
17:32:16 <andythenorth> have a community vote about what the variations should be
17:32:38 <andythenorth> pay special attention to existing industry newgrf authors whose sets will be unbalanced by this
17:32:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the error description is "all industry newgrfs are broken".
17:33:04 <planetmaker> The solution à la "fix all newgrfs" is not the best, IMHO.
17:33:29 <planetmaker> At least it should not be the only one. At least it needs a flag like "YACD active for cargos xyz" or alike
17:34:02 <planetmaker> or vice versa newgrf-support to (dis)allow yacd for single cargos or the extend of yacd (num destinations)
17:35:36 <andythenorth> we talk at cross purposes
17:36:04 <andythenorth> the ratings algorithm change is a valid fix for non-YACD and (maybe) YACD
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17:36:35 <andythenorth> and it could be a valid fix for trunk ottd
17:36:43 <andythenorth> but then you have a community problem, and a code problem
17:38:34 <andythenorth> if the game changes this, someone has to decide what's better, and then there's a bun fight
17:38:40 <andythenorth> if newgrf changes it, no bun fight
17:43:29 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22933 /trunk/src/lang/slovenian.txt:
17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by
17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovenian - 10 changes by Necrolyte
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17:48:27 <Elukka> Eddi|ZuHause: since the brakeman's cab goes above the roof, it'll end up in the overlap zone on the diagonal views
17:48:31 <Elukka> kinda having trouble imagining how that works
18:10:10 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
18:28:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22934 /trunk/src/network/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#4771]: prevent authentication bypass for the admin port when a new game is started
18:47:41 <andythenorth> it's funny how annoying alluke is even when he's being right
18:49:41 <Pinkbeast> It's way easier to be annoying when you're right - if you do it when you're wrong you just look silly
18:56:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22935 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 6 dirs):
18:56:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
18:56:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Prevent authentication bypass for the admin port when a new game is started [FS#4771] (r22934)
18:56:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: TTO savegames with any aircraft not in an hangar caused crashes during load (r22915)
18:56:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Windows 2000 and XP without service pack 3 must use the win9x binary/installer; the newer MSVC compiler of the compile farm does not support those versions of Windows anymore [FS#4749] (r22909)
18:58:19 <Elukka> alluke? there's someone whose nick is confusingly much like mine in reverse?
18:59:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22936 /branches/1.1/src/lang/ (32 files): [1.1] -Backport from trunk: language updates
19:01:43 <planetmaker> Elukka: that nick is not easily confused with yours ;-)
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19:02:30 <planetmaker> he's around longer... but... well. Let's say the quality of conversation differs
19:03:24 <V453000> lets say his intelligence is more spread over the amount of the time he has been around
19:03:38 <andythenorth> he doesn't talk here that much
19:03:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22937 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 6 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare 1.1.3
19:03:48 <planetmaker> nope, only(?) in the forums
19:03:50 <andythenorth> he maanges to concentrate a lot of annoyance into a small number of words
19:04:10 <planetmaker> yeah. on a scale of 1...10 he reaches at least 9
19:06:02 <Rubidium> V453000: nah, maybe F, but not 10 ;)
19:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> don't encourage him, man! :p
19:09:58 * Rubidium also always wondered why an F was such a bad grade. It's a near 10
19:10:20 <Eddi|zuHause> some countries have high numbers the worst grade :p
19:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it's even more funny, they don't have an E
19:11:27 <Alberth> turning a F into an E would be too easy :)
19:11:49 <Rubidium> Alberth: a B is still easy as well
19:12:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22938 /tags/1.1.3/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.1.3
19:12:50 <frosch123> hmm, there was some guy in school who had to do a seminar about writing html. when he came to colour codes, he said "f" would mean "full"
19:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and once again it's not midnight for a long time!
19:12:58 <Elukka> we do 4-10, 10 being the best
19:13:01 <Elukka> no idea why it starts at 4
19:13:09 <Elukka> some higher education is 5-1 where lower is best...
19:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> in east germany we had 5-1 where 1 was best, and after we switched to the western system, we had 6-1 with 1 best
19:14:15 <frosch123> in my youth it was 6 - 1 for lower grades, 0 to 15 for higher grades, and 5 - 1 at university
19:15:38 <frosch123> hmm, though some courses actually had 6-1 at university, where 5 meant "you are allowed to visit a second oral-exam", while 6 meant "totally failed"
19:18:47 *** erik1984 has joined #openttd
19:21:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22939 /trunk/ (changelog.txt docs/32bpp.txt known-bugs.txt readme.txt): -Merge: release documentation updates from 1.1
19:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the west german kids were dumber, so they needed the additional grade...
19:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it doesn't really make sense otherwise to split "failed" into "well he _almost_ reached minimum standard" and "there is no hope for you whatsoever"
19:25:59 <pjpe> there's a big difference
19:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> failed is failed...
19:26:23 <pjpe> kinda sucks that the gpa at my university for marks under 50 is basically one big block of like
19:26:47 <pjpe> there's a difference between never showed up to class or take any test and showed up all the time but barely failed
19:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you get 50% right by just guessing...
19:27:06 <pjpe> maybe at east german clown college
19:27:18 <pjpe> what would that be called
19:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> grade 4 (i.e. "barely passed") is usually given at 50% of the points
19:28:09 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's also what a professor said when someone got 2 of 100 points in a test which contained on task which would give you 5 with that stategy
19:28:34 <pjpe> why is there even a grade of 4
19:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: because differentiating between 87 and 84 is just too fine-scale
19:29:15 <frosch123> pjpe: because those who fail the math tests, shall also know that they failed
19:29:41 <pjpe> i can't imagine a world where my mark isn't in -100
19:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> german grades can usually given a "+" or "-" if the fine scale is really needed
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19:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> in my university that is modelled by adding or substracting 0.3
19:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause> where going outside the range [1,4] is forbidden
19:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so the allowed values are 1.0 [best], 1.3, 1.7, 2.0, ..., 3.3, 3.7, 4.0 [passed]
19:32:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and "failed", which doesn't have a number associated with it
19:39:55 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: lmao :p
19:59:49 <MNIM> Bah, I doo this too often.
20:00:09 <MNIM> I think up a reaction to something, then I get distracted and forget that I was going to say something
20:01:03 <Alberth> don't press 'ENTER' until you typed everything :)
20:01:38 <Alberth> and don't be afraid of not posting something :)
20:02:02 <MNIM> Anyway. I was going to ask if it was possible to do the ecs thing with industries with separate parts of a building, but having the underground coloured like the industry too
20:02:27 <MNIM> (and then being able to build anything of your choice on top of it)
20:13:10 * Alberth believes 'build anything of your choice on top of it' was the trigger
20:13:38 <MNIM> well, anything like rails, roads, busstops and stations
20:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so you want to build rails on industry tiles?
20:15:12 <andythenorth> terraforming near rivers is annoying
20:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yep, you risk way too easily to destroy the river
20:17:20 <Elukka> i think there should be a 'indestructible rivers' toggle
20:18:01 <planetmaker> that would disallow building buoys and so on, too
20:18:45 <MNIM> Not on industry tiles, exactly. More like the ground sprites of the industry extend to cover the ground inbetween
20:19:16 <MNIM> In the ECS industries vector, like you see with the coal mine, I usually build my stations in the gap inbetween
20:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: like FIRS with CHIPS?
20:22:44 <MNIM> dunno, never actually used firs
20:22:56 <MNIM> anyway, I meant like this
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20:23:20 <V453000> or at least ... looks nice :)
20:23:21 <MNIM> here it's a car factory consisting of two parts, with a bridge walkway over a road
20:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: so now you want the pavement of the road look like the industry next to it?
20:25:15 <MNIM> personally, I think it would be an idea to have the road sprites contain the roads only, and not, like in that image a potentially mismatching roadside
20:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that's going to be tricky
20:25:39 <MNIM> or does OTTD not compute the terrain sprites under the roads?
20:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: yes, railtypes do that already
20:25:52 <planetmaker> MNIM: roadtypes ;-)
20:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but that will only make grass/snow/desert appear, not industry ground
20:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> these checks have deliberately been left out of the railtype specs
20:27:36 <MNIM> well, I know that with my current nutracks version, it does indeed give the correct terrain colour for the grassland, but the change from grass to snow still is abrupt
20:28:32 <planetmaker> yes, it can't be helped currently
20:33:28 <MNIM> oh well, it still looks pretty, even with a mismatch here and there
20:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> smooth snow transition under rail could be done with more map bits
20:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> sooner or later we need to consider the option to add an m8
20:36:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: FWIW there is no way I'm doing smoother snow for FIRS
20:36:37 <Yexo> it can even be done already if you don't care the update is instantanious instead of during the tileloop
20:36:39 <andythenorth> smoother snow is over-rated
20:37:54 <planetmaker> smatz once had a patch for that iirc
20:39:41 <planetmaker> but snow transitions should be known w/o map bits. Same as desert transition
20:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (visual) problem with that is during snow line movement the change will be simultaneous on all tiles
20:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of piece by piece like the other tiles
20:41:25 <planetmaker> it wouldn't. As updates would be during the tile loop
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20:44:31 <andythenorth> could the train window(s) show length?
20:44:45 <andythenorth> as a numeric value?
20:47:29 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it would, since you cannot distinguish between "full snow" and "half snow" in the map bits, so transition between both would be instantaneous on changing the condition
20:48:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so instead of 1.0 it shows 16?
20:48:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or you mean showing the length also outside the depot window?
20:49:05 <andythenorth> currently I have to send train to depot to find its length
20:52:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
21:19:25 <Hirundo> planetmaker: If the transition is done during the tile loop, how would a tile know whether to draw the 'old' or 'new' state w/o map bits to store that info?
21:19:57 *** douknoukem has joined #openttd
22:31:18 *** Nite_Owl has joined #openttd
22:31:48 <Nite_Owl> Has the compile farm crashed again?
22:35:58 <Nite_Owl> Oops - I forgot the dang time difference... later all
23:23:23 *** Mr_Bones_ has joined #openttd
23:24:08 <Mr_Bones_> any ETA on 1.1.3 final? I'd like to avoid security masking 1.1.2 and just to a quick stable bump instead on Gentoo.
23:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> like... 3 hours ago?
23:25:47 <Mr_Bones_> got a url for me? the web site isn't updated yet afaict.
23:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> try binaries.openttd.org
23:27:19 <Mr_Bones_> ah, got it, thanks. the news hasn't been posted but I see the files. great, thanks.
23:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> post it to bugs.openttd.org
23:31:04 <Mr_Bones_> looks like it needs a login. it would have to allow anonymous bug submissions for me to post there. that's ok, it's a small enough patch for me to continue maintaining it.
23:37:07 <Pinkbeast> Oh, relationships with upstream, how we miss you...
23:49:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Mr_Bones_: registration is required in case feedback is needed
23:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> which, honestly, is fairly likely, if you want to get a patch in
continue to next day ⏵
