IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-14
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00:10:15 <planetmaker> hm, time for bed. good night
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01:35:44 <PeanutHorst> please remind me what port an OpenTTD server uses
01:35:51 <PeanutHorst> so i can poke the appropriate hole in my firewall
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02:12:15 <kbrooks> how do i convert entire railroad to elrail or monorail?
02:22:55 <DabuYu> there's the convert tool, but that only works by selection large areas
02:23:10 <DabuYu> so it does not work by clicking on the rail and all of the connected rail will be converted
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04:50:44 <SmatZ> my president > your president
04:51:22 <SmatZ> (if I were Russian and Putin were actually a president ;)
04:57:04 <Elukka> well he's a terrible man
04:57:08 <Elukka> i still find his pics amusing though
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05:32:12 <DiabloD3> man, I wonder why no one has a really good server
05:42:48 <peter1138> what makes a good server?
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05:55:35 * planetmaker also wonders what a 'really good server' is
05:55:56 <planetmaker> in case of doubt I suggest 'create one' :-)
05:59:35 <DiabloD3> lots of servers have tiny limits on vehicles and such
05:59:44 <DiabloD3> and dont install enough additional content
06:04:35 * planetmaker thinks that a few hundret per company is quite a lot
06:05:16 <DiabloD3> not when you're doing bus work inside of towns
06:05:20 <DiabloD3> and a few hundred no
06:05:23 <planetmaker> and I'm not sure that NewGRFs are required for a 'good server'
06:05:29 <DiabloD3> all the servers Ive been own limit it pretty low
06:06:24 <planetmaker> More important is that the NewGRF selection makes sense
06:07:47 <planetmaker> well, join one of those where you can talk to the admins ;-)
06:08:08 <DiabloD3> meh, admins are like it takes too much memory or cpu and they get vpses from shitty providers
06:09:01 <planetmaker> ok, in that case I really suggest: do it better
06:09:23 <planetmaker> and you did worse? ;-)
06:09:27 <DiabloD3> two or three years ago I put an openttd server up
06:10:32 * planetmaker wonders how that can happen
06:10:57 <planetmaker> once we setup a stable server it was immediately accepted by people
06:11:37 <EyeMWing> Wasn't multiplayer brand new and very desync-y two or three years ago?
06:12:17 <planetmaker> it was established and worked like a charm, ever since I started playing it
06:12:21 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: I think it predated the autodownload shit
06:12:25 <planetmaker> which is more than three years ago
06:12:28 <DiabloD3> people hated having to download shit
06:12:44 <pjpe> hell openttdcoop wasn't even a new thing in 2006
06:12:56 <EyeMWing> Huh. I guess I lost a few years somewhere.
06:13:52 <planetmaker> well, PSG 01 is from late 2005
06:14:02 <planetmaker> so multiplayer obviously worked well back then
06:14:27 <planetmaker> which was OpenTTD r3320
06:15:49 <planetmaker> DiabloD3: and NewGRFs also worked... if one could provide a somewhat stable download loaction for a set of NewGRFs
06:16:08 <planetmaker> But they became indeed much more popular with the online content download
06:16:19 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: yeah, but it wasnt automated
06:16:28 <EyeMWing> The coop grf pack was (and still is) full of total awesome, and it's a single download.
06:16:51 <EyeMWing> 90% of my station GRFs still come out of there and ONLY out of there.
06:16:55 <planetmaker> EyeMWing: well, I'm actually happy that it's mostly obsolete nowadays ;-)
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06:17:04 <DiabloD3> theres a grf for more vehs
06:17:12 <planetmaker> 90% of your station grfs?
06:17:25 <EyeMWing> I use a TON of minor station sets.
06:17:31 <EyeMWing> Seriously. The list is obscene
06:18:10 <planetmaker> Well, I know the coop grfpack... but many are also on bananananananas meanwhile. But yes, not all. Nor probably ever will
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06:18:18 <planetmaker> some people boycot bananans
06:18:35 <EyeMWing> And then there's all the dead sets.
06:18:39 <planetmaker> DiabloD3: 'more vehicles'? The vehicle count is not NewGRF-able
06:18:44 <planetmaker> bananas = online content
06:19:09 <DiabloD3> ive played grfs that add vehicles
06:19:49 <planetmaker> they can add new vehicle models, yes
06:20:17 <planetmaker> but there's not one, there's zillions of NewGRFs which provide trains. Several which provide RV, some for planes and ships
06:20:55 <DiabloD3> egrvts I thok it was
06:21:13 <planetmaker> yes, that's one which provides RV
06:21:43 <EyeMWing> egrvts drives me insane for one reason: Livestock on flatbeds.
06:22:22 <DiabloD3> can servers provide 32bpp?
06:22:45 <EyeMWing> If they're running the 32bpp build, yes.
06:22:54 <DiabloD3> so basically no then?
06:23:20 <EyeMWing> Builds have to match client->server. 32bpp relies on a ton of code that isn't in the main branch.
06:23:40 <DiabloD3> even having just extra zoom would be nice
06:23:48 <DiabloD3> openttd was clearly never meant for 1920x1200
06:23:53 <planetmaker> EyeMWing: 32bpp is in OpenTTD for ages
06:24:11 <planetmaker> people only always think that 32bpp is only provided by the extra zoom branch
06:24:15 <planetmaker> which could not be more wrong
06:24:27 <planetmaker> 32bpp also needs no server support
06:24:31 <EyeMWing> ... Well some people need to update the heck out of the docs over there
06:24:49 <DiabloD3> someone write docs that tells me EXACTLY what I need to do to have a server do 32bpp
06:24:51 <planetmaker> people just have to grab the 32bpp graphics and adjust their blitter. Then they can use it - whatever other people in the same do
06:25:05 <planetmaker> DiabloD3: nothing. It's a pure player choice
06:25:16 <planetmaker> the server has no need for 32bpp, nor can he force it
06:25:24 <DiabloD3> so wait, why the hell dont I have 32bpp then?
06:25:33 <planetmaker> 32bpp work as local replacement for 8bpp graphics
06:25:52 <DiabloD3> I have the zoom only pack installed
06:26:07 <planetmaker> see. zoom-only ;-)
06:26:13 <DiabloD3> well yes I want zoom too
06:26:31 <planetmaker> that won't work with servers and player-side only - as that needs a modified OpenTTD
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06:26:56 <DiabloD3> so if I make my server allow it, no one can play?
06:27:39 <planetmaker> those who also use that version
06:27:55 <planetmaker> but running patched OpenTTD usually attracts very few players
06:28:32 <planetmaker> :-) How's work going on the set, EyeMWing?
06:29:25 <DiabloD3> because what I want to do is basically provide as much content as possible
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06:29:38 <EyeMWing> Getting there. Got most of the wagons knocked off, working my way through the locos now. Slow going, since I'm being a bit OCD and documenting all the "include this later" items.
06:30:55 <planetmaker> but documenting stuff... never bad
06:32:19 <EyeMWing> Except when it turns into a 3-hour wikipedia adventure
06:33:30 <planetmaker> EyeMWing: important is that you have fun doing it :-)
06:33:56 <DiabloD3> egrvts + industrial stations renewal + total bridge renewal + ecs full?
06:33:58 <planetmaker> and... how quick are other train sets being coded? You know?
06:34:24 <planetmaker> you're missing a trainset, plane set and ship set, DiabloD3
06:34:35 <planetmaker> ecs needs vehicle support
06:34:38 <DiabloD3> I dont actually care for trains sometimes
06:34:55 <DiabloD3> road vehicles are really goddamned interesting in openttd
06:34:58 <planetmaker> well. without you made the choice you'll never have useful trains later in that game
06:35:07 <planetmaker> and you can't correct it
06:35:08 <DiabloD3> I didnt say I wont have more trains
06:35:21 <DiabloD3> Im just saying that servers overlook alternative play
06:35:57 <planetmaker> but it doesn't sound particularily strange what you suggest
06:36:31 <DiabloD3> what about the giant boats one?
06:36:42 <DiabloD3> I could throw that in
06:36:44 <EyeMWing> Fish is awesome for ships.
06:36:52 <planetmaker> 2nd server I looked at in the server list
06:37:31 <planetmaker> pjpe: not at all. plenty, if you ask me
06:37:32 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: I sort by users
06:37:36 <DiabloD3> when I look at the mp list in game
06:37:41 <planetmaker> I'll hardly authorize bigger maps
06:38:19 <planetmaker> bigger maps offer no more options and leave maps unfinished
06:38:55 <pjpe> don't you run out of industry and towns to connect
06:39:00 <planetmaker> DiabloD3: but how that's an argument when your statement was "no good servers" and the 2nd I look at has your config? ;-)
06:39:01 <DiabloD3> it kind of sucks when you can afford a map length rail
06:39:10 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: if it has no users, its not good.
06:39:36 <planetmaker> so your complaint rather is "I like different maps than others. They suck"?
06:40:15 <EyeMWing> I can afford a map length rail before 1890 on well-played 2048x2048 map.
06:40:42 <planetmaker> 2048^2 is booring :-)
06:40:58 <planetmaker> Games need to finish with hardly anything filled-in
06:41:06 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: well whats the point of mp if its sp?
06:41:46 <EyeMWing> I always play 2048, with the town and industry densities relatively low.
06:41:47 <planetmaker> how can you argue with SP when you just complained about too few other players?
06:43:43 <DiabloD3> planetmaker: read what I wrote again
06:43:51 <DiabloD3> why play on a server that has no players?
06:45:59 <planetmaker> why complain about lacking servers of your choice while you refuse to play on those which offser your game style on grounds of 'no one is (already) connected'
06:46:11 <planetmaker> how does that work, if everyone does the same?
06:46:25 <planetmaker> sounds like catch22
06:46:45 <planetmaker> and that server has a connected client for what its worth
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06:49:37 <DiabloD3> it seems like an inferior version of ECS
06:50:17 <Elukka> it's an entirely different set
06:50:18 <planetmaker> it's a different industry set
06:50:29 <Elukka> plus, i would say, it has much better graphics
06:50:41 <Elukka> the sprites for the as of yet unreleased new ECS version look excellent though
06:50:46 <DiabloD3> which is more popular?
06:51:07 <Elukka> also, yeah, basic openttd can run 32bpp graphics these days
06:51:10 <planetmaker> depends on whom you ask, DiabloD3
06:51:12 <Elukka> it's just that most of those graphics don't exist
06:51:23 <Elukka> there isn't a full replacement of stock graphics to 32bpp sprites
06:51:26 <planetmaker> Elukka: partially both sets even share sprites
06:51:46 <Elukka> there also isn't any 32bpp vehicle set as far as i know
06:52:56 <planetmaker> egrvts is the only one I know which offers 32bpp
06:53:03 <planetmaker> egrvts is outdated?
06:53:32 <DiabloD3> no the 32bpp pack for it is
06:53:38 <DiabloD3> at least according to the forum
06:53:46 <planetmaker> hm, only for grvts?
06:53:53 <planetmaker> dunno, I hardly use it
06:54:14 <Elukka> i think the problem with 32bpp sprites is that basically the entire game would have to be drawn with them or having just a few of them around will look out of place
06:54:34 <planetmaker> Elukka: exactly. And the base set is not fully re-drawn yet
06:54:44 <planetmaker> nor is that making lots of progress lately
06:54:55 <Elukka> besides that they're a lot more work
06:55:08 <planetmaker> yes... it needs 10000 sprites
06:55:37 <planetmaker> But I'd not argue that they're more work than 8bpp
06:55:47 <planetmaker> that'd be wrong, I think
06:55:48 <Ammler> landscape and houses are almost done, vehicels aren't
06:56:02 <planetmaker> it just needs again the same amount of work
06:56:04 <Elukka> you can make a 3D model and render it from whichever angle you wish
06:56:17 <peter1138> and it'll look like crap
06:56:19 <Elukka> but first you've got to model that, and i think that's more work than creating a tiny pixel sprite
06:56:45 <Elukka> then when you get to either giving it a compelling texture, or overpainting each sprite... that's where the real work is
06:56:46 <EyeMWing> Not for the sort of basic boxy models TTD calls for
06:57:05 <Ammler> zeph made his set that way afaik
06:57:24 <Elukka> UV unwrapping is a huge bitch and i will forever hate it :D
06:57:25 <planetmaker> pik ka also makes some planes with a renderer and overpainting
06:57:58 <EyeMWing> Heck, I'd argue that 8bpp spriting is actually harder. Or at least more of an arcane art.
06:58:40 <planetmaker> It's entirely different
06:58:44 <Elukka> having done both 8bpp and 3D modeling and texturing, i'd say doing the sprites is definitely faster
06:58:50 <Elukka> though i'm not a very time efficient 3D modeler
07:01:11 <EyeMWing> You know, thinking about it, TT might be the very last user 8bpp artwork. Period. The only other situations I know of that still called for 8bpp within the past 10 years are all 16bpp+
07:02:55 <planetmaker> Well, people obviously like 8bpp... after all they completely re-made it in 8bpp along with many NewGRFs. But they didn't in 32bpp so far
07:03:03 <EyeMWing> And most of those situations are for drawing things using absolutely barebones video modes - during POST and early boot and such.
07:04:03 <planetmaker> But actually I'd love to see the 32bpp project get sufficient support to really finish a complete set of 32bpp graphics for the game. And I'm talking about normal zoom...
07:04:19 <planetmaker> Extra zoom is different, but if people like they can provide those graphics, too
07:05:22 <peter1138> it needs some proper teamwork to produce a consistent set
07:05:54 <planetmaker> And it needs to target the normal zoom level foremost - or it won't aquire a sufficient user base to get critical mass
07:15:05 <EyeMWing> And this is just completely rediculous. A rebuilt locomotive with abolustely nothing in it but ballast and a cab, another rebuilt locomotive with nothing in it but a turbine unit, and a rebuilt steam engine coal tender fitted with equipment to pulverize the coal and feed it to the turbine. Why? Because America. http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/up80.jpg
07:15:57 <EyeMWing> If that goes into the set, it's going to need a base reliability of 0.
07:17:25 <EyeMWing> I mean, the thing only managed 10k miles in 7 years.
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07:43:58 <Elukka> anyone happen to know smartphones?
07:44:54 * planetmaker knows smarter questions ;-)
07:44:59 <DiabloD3> I wonder if thats still under development
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07:46:46 <DiabloD3> okay so, Im thinking
07:47:18 <EyeMWing> heqs absolutely is still under development.
07:48:44 <DiabloD3> 2cc + 2cc chimera + av8 + ecs & first veh set + all of ecs + egrvts + heqs + fish + heqs + hover bus
07:49:30 <planetmaker> what is the "first veh set"?
07:49:30 <DiabloD3> + industrial station renewal + total bridge renewal
07:49:53 <planetmaker> forget it. FIRS and ECS cannot work together. Either or
07:50:04 <DiabloD3> no, thats the name of the grf
07:50:05 <lugo> he means the ecs+firs vehicles addon i guess
07:50:15 <DiabloD3> it allows normal veh retrofittable to firs and ecs cargos
07:50:29 <planetmaker> ah, that crap one
07:50:36 <lugo> yeah you don't need that if you have egrvts
07:57:01 <DiabloD3> so I wonder if all of this will even work together
07:57:23 <Terkhen> meh, they have created amazon.es
07:58:05 <Terkhen> now I can't buy cheap things on other countries' amazon anymore
07:58:52 <DiabloD3> hrm 2cc looks like it makes the trains very complex
07:58:55 <planetmaker> Terkhen: why can't you buy there anymore?
07:59:04 <planetmaker> I could still order at, say, amazon.ca
07:59:30 <Terkhen> really? I have been told that I won't be able to buy stuff that amazon.es also sells because they won't ship it here
07:59:45 <planetmaker> hm, I think it worked
07:59:50 <Terkhen> that amazon does not compete against itself :P
08:00:09 <planetmaker> it's a bit ago I did that... so might have changed, though
08:00:19 <Terkhen> I'll have to test when it is more established, right now amazon.es only have "imports from amazon (country)"
08:00:25 <DiabloD3> 2cc doesnt let you put any cargo on trains now?
08:00:34 <DiabloD3> high speed rail is for people only?
08:00:44 <Terkhen> DiabloD3: no clue, I don't use 2cc
08:00:51 <Terkhen> I know that it supports cargos, but that's it
08:00:59 * Terkhen only uses the metro trains :P
08:01:09 <DiabloD3> well I want a train set that makes it more interesting
08:01:48 <DiabloD3> oh apparently I dont need 2cc chimera anymore
08:02:06 <Terkhen> for certain definitions of interesting I'm not the right person to ask :)
08:02:19 <Terkhen> I usually use OpenGFX+ Trains or the spain set
08:02:43 <planetmaker> not to forget OpenGFX+Road vehicles
08:02:53 <DiabloD3> well Im trying to use egrvts + heqs
08:03:46 <Terkhen> Zephyris is asking for testing/feedback :)
08:03:58 <DiabloD3> why do we have two road sets anyhow?
08:04:16 <DiabloD3> yeah but why not just fold it into one
08:04:33 <Terkhen> what if someone does not want to play with heavy equipment?
08:04:44 <Terkhen> besides, they are developed by different people with different tastes and priorities
08:04:49 <Elukka> i still don't understand what the high speed passenger locomotives in 2cc are for, when a high speed EMU is literally ten times cheaper to run
08:05:17 <DiabloD3> INDUSTRIES! INDUSTRIES EVERYWHERE!
08:06:50 <MNIM> elukka: faster loading speed? also, the ability to transport goods? besides that, the sncf high-speed loc is several years earlier than the high speed emus
08:07:05 <planetmaker> Elukka: that set needs balancing. and yes, the metros load MUCH faster
08:07:19 <Terkhen> the metro trains are awesome for local networks / YACD
08:07:24 <Elukka> i didn't mean metros, i meant the high speed locomotives that cost something like $100k/year to run
08:07:47 <Terkhen> Elukka: I requested a feature to enable/disable different types of trains in the 2cc set months ago
08:08:10 <Terkhen> but since that hasn't been implemented I ended up playing with a NewGRF that only includes the metro trains
08:08:18 <Terkhen> it's on online content IIRC
08:08:19 <Elukka> i'd like them all to be there, but i'd like both locomotive pulled and MU trains to be viable
08:08:56 <Terkhen> hmm... truly? all of them? :)
08:09:10 <DiabloD3> super speedytrac, red peak are missing from heqs if I install evgvts
08:09:14 <Elukka> well, just that one isn't 10 times better than the other
08:09:22 <MNIM> muh, I don't like the metro trains. the whole purpose of the metro is to be small footprint, dense and fast-loading
08:09:25 <Terkhen> your mouse scroll wheel is going to cry a lot if you use all 2cc trains :P
08:09:30 <Elukka> i do like that 2cc makes an effort to make MUs useful
08:09:55 <Elukka> but i think the high end MUs should have much higher running costs
08:10:00 <DiabloD3> my shoreline is corrupted
08:10:01 <MNIM> it got the second two down, but sadly metro tunnels is outside of OTTD's scope for now
08:11:01 <Terkhen> DiabloD3: enable/disable NewGRFs until you find the culprit and report it to that NewGRF forum thread
08:11:13 <dihedral> good morning all ye special people (you know who you are)
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08:13:22 <DiabloD3> oh wait found what it was
08:13:31 <DiabloD3> I accidently left 32bpp pack enabled
08:16:10 <norbert79> Question: With the introduction of the weight multiplier, or not because of it, the vagons are counted as 0.5-1-1.5 and so on. How to switch this back to regular?
08:16:38 <Terkhen> wagons are always counted that way in 1.1.x, and to my knowledge there is no way to switch back
08:17:02 <Terkhen> the "old" way of counting was wrong with NewGRFs that use non-standard lengths for engines / wagons IIRC
08:17:27 <planetmaker> it also has nothing to do with weight multiplier
08:17:27 <norbert79> well, it's a bit confusing, but I can understand the reason of it
08:17:35 <norbert79> planetmaker: Yeah, just understood it
08:17:38 <planetmaker> and this is the correct length in tile units
08:17:51 <Terkhen> yes, once you get used to it, it is better :)
08:17:58 <planetmaker> previously it counted somewhat half-tiles. Which is a stupid unit, if wagons have different lenths
08:18:10 <norbert79> Sure, but it was easier to see how many wagons I have :)
08:18:20 <norbert79> but right, length is a bit more important
08:19:07 <norbert79> Just upgraded everything on my collection to 1.1.2, skipped a few versions, so wanted to catch up again
08:19:19 <norbert79> and got suprised by some new features since 1.0.5
08:19:37 <norbert79> Yet I am afraid having too many features makes the game overcomplicated :)
08:19:45 <norbert79> but it's still managable
08:20:29 <Terkhen> pressing ctrl while terraforming is one of my favourites :P
08:21:00 <norbert79> I was more thinking on the sprite-lister, but I guess that came with the scenario and developer tools :)
08:21:28 <Terkhen> yes, the newgrf debugging stuff is a awesome too :)
08:22:08 <norbert79> And it works nice, had to update some of the NewGRF's for my older savegames, I found those right after that
08:22:40 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Are those new bridges visible using the original windows GRF set too, or are those with OpenGFX?
08:25:17 <DiabloD3> I think Im using OpenGFX
08:25:42 <DiabloD3> this is the total bridge renewal set
08:26:31 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Ah, right, I am using that too
08:27:48 <DiabloD3> I dont think I like 2cc though
08:27:51 <DiabloD3> it makes stuff too complezx
08:29:15 <MNIM> Diablo: You should play through a whole game, say, 1900 to 2100
08:29:28 <DiabloD3> MNIM: I have many times
08:29:37 <MNIM> and limit yourself to one region
08:30:18 <DiabloD3> MNIM: dude, Ive sat down and played ottd 12 hours in a row quite a few times
08:30:26 <MNIM> I, for example, only use euro trains, preferably dutch, and only an occasional american monster for the heaviest trains
08:30:36 <DiabloD3> Im just getting tired of the same old same old
08:32:13 <Terkhen> IIRC the latest version of 2cc does not implement region limits
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08:32:54 <DiabloD3> whats the best train set?
08:33:15 <Elukka> there is no one best train set
08:33:23 <DiabloD3> yeah, but whats really popular?
08:33:39 <Terkhen> every set has its share of fans and detractors :)
08:33:48 <DiabloD3> whats something that would really wow people
08:34:06 <Terkhen> no trains! use trucks instead
08:34:14 <DiabloD3> Terkhen: I do that a lot already
08:34:20 <DiabloD3> thats why I hate servers that have low veh limits
08:34:39 * Terkhen hit a 2500 limit once
08:34:49 <MNIM> Terkhen: true, that's why I do it myself
08:34:53 <DiabloD3> a lot of servers do shit like enforce a 100 limit
08:35:18 <Elukka> Terkhen: did your CPU melt?
08:35:31 <DiabloD3> how well can this handle multiple train grfs?
08:37:05 <Terkhen> Elukka: no, it takes about 5000 vehicles / 300 ships for that
08:37:22 <Elukka> is that when your CPU gets hot enough to undergo fusion
08:37:47 <Terkhen> no, that's when the noises start scaring me and I stop testing performance
08:37:47 <DiabloD3> the download count on banannas is useful, right?
08:42:26 <DiabloD3> btw, whats the limit of boat size in ottd?
08:42:34 <DiabloD3> because I'd love to see absolutely goddamned huge ships
08:46:27 <DiabloD3> like, they have tankers out there, the largest in the world, that can hold 3.1 million barrels
08:46:48 <DiabloD3> and they're 1250 feet long
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10:11:16 <DiabloD3> hrm, apparently nars and ukrs2 are the big train sets
10:11:23 <DiabloD3> if you're not using 2cc that is
10:11:53 <Elukka> it's older but it's excellent
10:11:57 <DiabloD3> so I shouldnt use ukrs2?
10:12:11 <Elukka> well it's only got a comparatively small amount of trains
10:12:30 <DiabloD3> yeah but ukrs isnt compatible with nars
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10:13:15 <Elukka> because it's rather older
10:13:28 <DiabloD3> and dbsetxl is automatically out because it only runs on temperate
10:14:05 <Elukka> well you can use ukrs2
10:14:15 <Elukka> it just does't have modern trains yet
10:14:28 <DiabloD3> yeah, but if I throw in nars as well, Im fine, right?
10:16:29 <TrueBrain> and wiki.openttd.org is back online
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10:18:50 <DiabloD3> av8, bigger train depot, city statios, all of ecs, egrvts, fish, heqs, industrial stations renewal, long vehicles, nars, total bridge renewal, ukrs2, ukrs2+
10:20:12 <DiabloD3> and maybe total town replacement as well
10:20:40 <Elukka> definitely recommend that
10:23:30 <DiabloD3> anything else Im missing?
10:33:15 <DiabloD3> and lets throw in opengfx+ trees
10:34:45 <planetmaker> you don't need them, if you use OpenGFX
10:35:03 <DiabloD3> but I want better trees :<
10:35:14 <planetmaker> well. they're the same?
10:35:22 <planetmaker> unless you use an opengfx older than 0.3.4
10:36:12 <DiabloD3> no I use whatever the newest is
10:36:26 <planetmaker> 'newest' is always a good description :-P
10:36:36 <planetmaker> probably only I have the 'newest' ;-)
10:36:53 <planetmaker> and probably I'm the only one who can actually claim that an be right atm
10:39:45 * DiabloD3 ponders absolutely fucking gigantic trains
10:46:07 <DiabloD3> so I wonder how hard it is to setup a server now
10:50:11 <b_jonas> city statinos? I'll have to try that.
10:50:28 <b_jonas> I'm playing industrial stations but I'd like some variance in passenger stations too.
10:53:39 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Setting up a server in general is a process taking an hour in worst case unless you want to have scripted enviroment
10:54:03 <norbert79> DiabloD3: It takes a bit until everything is in it's place and all the addons are working, advanced settings well set
10:54:17 <norbert79> DiabloD3: But scripting the hosting enviroment takes even more
10:55:11 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Well, take a look at Luukland's Servers. Those are highly scripted
10:55:25 <DiabloD3> I wonder if I can just steal his stuff
10:55:31 <norbert79> DiabloD3: It would take me some while until I could figure out how they work
10:55:47 <norbert79> DiabloD3: No, yíou cannot and it's not really a nice thing even thinking
10:55:48 <planetmaker> they're heavily hacked versions...
10:56:06 <DiabloD3> norbert79: erm, the newgrfs he uses are public
10:56:09 <planetmaker> and fake the version they claim
10:56:11 <norbert79> planetmaker: I thought it's just regular OpenTTD with addons and scripts...
10:56:37 <norbert79> DiabloD3: NewGRF != scripts :)
10:56:42 <DiabloD3> I should go bitch at him for awhile
10:56:42 <planetmaker> it's just hacked that it works for regular clients somewhat
10:56:54 <norbert79> DiabloD3: A NewGRF is one thing, but giving it functionality of IRC connection and such takes lot more
10:57:37 <norbert79> DiabloD3: I doubt that begging for his code will do any good. Discover the possibilites for yourself! Like try to run the hosting enviroment ina different enviroment, or try to script it a bit
10:57:58 <DiabloD3> norbert79: lol "different"
10:58:04 <planetmaker> there are lot of options without hacking OpenTTD
10:58:17 <DiabloD3> I'd have to go see if I could get plan9 working in xen if I wanted different
11:00:19 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Well, you asked how difficult opening an OpenTTD server might be, yet if you are so skilled, I you can answer that for yourself then :)
11:00:39 <norbert79> ...I think you can...
11:00:42 <planetmaker> +1 @ norbert79 :-)
11:00:54 <DiabloD3> norbert79: well know, I asked if it got any easier
11:01:18 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Oh, so you are already having one, what is it's name?
11:01:29 <DiabloD3> I used to have one a few years back
11:02:00 <norbert79> DiabloD3: Well, in that case I think it's worth revieweing all the changes. Lot has changed since 0.75 (?)
11:03:02 <norbert79> But I think you are skilled enough to get that done
11:03:59 <TrueBrain> norbert79: be careful how far you stick that stick up his ass :D
11:04:14 <DiabloD3> heh, well this was a short attempt
11:04:18 <DiabloD3> alpine doesnt have liblzma
11:07:15 <norbert79> Hmm, I think my hosted server will be based on a Dutch scenario. I fall in love in Holland since New Kids...
11:09:10 <TrueBrain> always happy when he visits us :D
11:09:42 <norbert79> I wonder what his reaction might have been if I would have mentioned New Kids Turbo with him online...
11:10:00 <norbert79> Oh well, maybe some other time
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11:12:34 <TramOfDeath> Where can I get ICU for Debian/Ubuntu?
11:12:52 <Eddi|zuHause> in your preferred package manager
11:13:00 <TramOfDeath> International Components for Unicode.
11:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: the library that handles right-to-left typing etc.
11:13:30 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Oh, that
11:13:38 <TramOfDeath> Actually I'm using Puppy Linux that is semi-compatible with Ubuntu Lucid.
11:13:41 <DiabloD3> I think he meant that he doesnt understand hes supposed to install libicu-dev as well
11:14:22 <TramOfDeath> 1.1.1 worked ok on Puppy, but 1.1.2 says can't find libicui18n.so.44
11:14:37 <norbert79> TramOfDeath: Wait, moment, showing it for you
11:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> TramOfDeath: that's a bug in the compile farm, use 1.1.3-RC1 instead
11:14:51 <norbert79> TramOfDeath: Or you can stick to the Lucid copy
11:15:08 <norbert79> TramOfDeath: That should work, if not, I can tell you the package missing
11:15:19 <TramOfDeath> oh, so it's a compile bug... I don't like using betas so I'll wait for 1.1.3
11:15:49 <norbert79> TramOfDeath: Actually there is just a need of installing one additional package, did that too, since that 1.1.2 works like charm
11:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> TramOfDeath: how are we supposed to know whether it works now again, if nobody tests it?
11:16:51 <TramOfDeath> The ok, I'll get it - but I'll name the file something like openttd_rc just in case
11:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, don't need to overwrite your old copy
11:17:29 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: I normally test Generic 32 bit and sometimes the debina versions, owning a Lucid.
11:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> norbert79: but nobody caught the compile bug in 1.1.2-RCx
11:18:30 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Actually I just wondered if it wasn't by accident, since I think you or womeone else complained about the age of statically linked libraries
11:18:38 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: So I thought this is a new policy...
11:20:34 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Yet of course I also find myself comfortable having less packages to be installed.
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11:35:36 <TramOfDeath> report: icu issue is gone in 1.1.3-rc1
11:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> TramOfDeath: good.
11:36:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: generic binary static linking issue
11:37:07 <TramOfDeath> so generic binary becomes f15-only
11:37:38 <TramOfDeath> with rc1 it's back to being generic
11:37:53 <TramOfDeath> 1.1.2 is only working on f15 due to the issue
11:38:12 <norbert79> TramOfDeath: Not really, it also works on my Lucid with the addition of installing 2 more packages.
11:38:25 <norbert79> TramOfDeath: It didn't take more, than 5 minutes to get it done
11:39:11 <TramOfDeath> Computing consists of malfunctions
11:39:45 <norbert79> TramOfDeath: libicu42 and liblzo2-2 solved my problem
11:40:16 <TramOfDeath> Puppy doesn't have APT so it would take ages to blow the poop away.
11:40:33 <norbert79> TramOfDeath: You told me, that it supports debian packages. Both are available for Lucid
11:41:19 <TramOfDeath> It does support deb packages... once you could find them without APT
11:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause> why are you still discussing this?
11:42:24 <norbert79> Eddi|zuHause: Good point... Just tried to be helpful.
11:43:03 * TramOfDeath will wait for 1.1.3 then, since it has the goo poo removed
11:44:22 <TramOfDeath> Ubuntu packages depo shows libicu is not found
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15:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the empire state building originally was intended as docking point for airships
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16:04:07 <MNIM> why has nobody ever built that in ottd?
16:05:40 <MNIM> I want to have my airships dock in the city, but the heliport is unavailable during the golden age of airships
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16:43:44 <TWerkhoven> create a airship-field/building grf?
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16:47:36 <planetmaker> MNIM: make a feature request for ogfx+airports
16:47:42 <planetmaker> sounds like a sensible addition
16:48:16 <planetmaker> it's relativly easy to add, I guess. It just needs a (or two or three or four) sprites
16:50:36 <MNIM> Would two squares be realistic? one with a empire state building-like peak to dock on, and one to hang the airship over (and to disembark, kinda awkward to disembark into nothing but air
16:54:21 <planetmaker> there are heliports with 1,4 and 8 tiles footprint.
16:55:03 <planetmaker> If you just want a place for landing without servicing, 1...3 tiles is feasible. With servicing requires at least the 2x2 heliport statemachine
16:56:11 <TinoDidriksen> I read that as hellport and wondered which direction you were taking TTD...
16:59:30 <planetmaker> yeah. You _can_ also design a hell port ;-)
16:59:44 <planetmaker> You'd need to draw a lot of new industry sprites and house sprites then
17:00:54 <planetmaker> etc some food plant which accepts PAX
17:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you can reuse the mars transformation set for the landscape ;)
17:04:19 <MNIM> I'm considering signing up to the forum to make the request, but I don't feel like signing up to /another/ forum
17:05:46 <planetmaker> that speaks volumes on how much you cherish your idea
17:06:46 <MNIM> well, it's less to do with the idea and more that Im more a kind of pessimist.
17:12:20 <Pinkbeast> Someone might well do it, early starts seem to be the flavour of the month.
17:12:48 <Pinkbeast> But OTOH I don't think the Empire State idea ever really worked well, and IRL the infrastructure for Zeppelins was monstrously huge
17:14:26 <MNIM> I think the issue with the whole empire state idea is that you had a place to anchor, but disembarking was another thing
17:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how it was planned to work, but the lower platform was supposed to have boarding facilites
17:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i also don't know if it was ever used as such
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22931 /trunk/src/lang/ (slovak.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 16 changes by Peymanpn
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovak - 28 changes by klingacik
17:50:41 <Eddi|zuHause> err... something
17:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> 's wrong with hungarian
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18:07:35 <MNIM> is it actually possible to add airport types via newgrf?
18:09:41 <planetmaker> Why do you think I told you to make a feature request in an airport newgrf?
18:12:00 <MNIM> well, I suppose you could also replace say, the heliport as some newgrfs do
18:12:15 <planetmaker> I didn't suggest that
18:12:27 <MNIM> but I haven't seen any operational newgrfs that actually add an airport on top of the defaults
18:12:42 <MNIM> I could be looking with the back of my head, of course
18:12:43 <planetmaker> I suggested to make a feature request for a "heli" port suited for zeppelins
18:12:59 <planetmaker> And you not having seen that doesn't mean it's not possible. Well.
18:13:29 <MNIM> you're right. I have linux habits.
18:13:47 <MNIM> 'if you want something made, it probably already has been done'
18:14:07 <planetmaker> I didn't say that either :-P
18:14:21 <MNIM> hmmmh. did I place that 'has' correctly?
18:14:23 <planetmaker> All I said is "it's possible. Suggest to add it to ogfx+airports"
18:15:14 <MNIM> can I quote you on that? ;P
18:15:38 <planetmaker> yes. It's (partially) my NewGRF.
18:15:47 <planetmaker> And I've done so before
18:15:58 <planetmaker> Just had and have no graphics for that
18:16:14 <planetmaker> But the set has a graphics artist...
18:19:47 * MNIM reads rules on the forum
18:19:59 <MNIM> irc rules: kicks for: 2. Excessive lameness (l33t n1x0rs)
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18:29:56 <appe> i think i just found a major bug
18:30:01 <appe> a train vanished in thin air.
18:30:23 <Terkhen> do you have a savegame from before it happened?
18:30:29 * Terkhen ponders alien abduction
18:30:37 <MNIM> maybe it got eaten by a UFO?
18:32:29 <Terkhen> any method to reproduce?
18:34:32 <MNIM> My industrial station is starting to take shape
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19:32:48 <appe> MNIM: jesus, what kind of grf is that?
19:37:10 <MNIM> I think in that picture alone, there's multiple ECS industry vectors, eGRVTS, NuTracks, OpenGFX+landscape, OpenGFX+trees, DWE stations, CHIPS stationset, Industrial Stations renewal, TTRS 3, and TBRS
19:38:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and about as many graphical glitches
19:41:30 <MNIM> The only real graphical 'glitch' is the bridges not matching with the roads
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19:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and the roadside not matching the surrounding grass?
19:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and the "planning tracks" bridges?
19:47:02 <frosch123> do planning tracks count as eye-candy?
19:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it'd work better with abandoned tracks, imho
19:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> or "not yet constructed" rails with existing trackbed
19:49:40 <frosch123> that does not exactly answer my question :)
19:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what your question actually was
19:51:24 <frosch123> what's the point of planning tracks?
19:51:46 <frosch123> i see neither a gameplay nor a eyecandy use in them
19:52:10 <planetmaker> "cheap blocking" ;-)
19:52:30 <frosch123> with 15 million in the bank?
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19:55:16 <valhallasw> frosch123: it's better than the 'bought land' tiles, I guess
19:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the main problem that keeps you from "planning" tracks with the "planning tracks" is that you still ruin your town rating, and you still pay immense amounts of money for terraforming and foundations
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20:01:24 <MNIM> the planning track bridges are okay, they're counted as monorail
20:01:38 <MNIM> and yeah, I forgot the road sides mismatch
20:02:16 <MNIM> mostly it's newgrf mismatches
20:02:23 <MNIM> or rather, incompatibilities
20:05:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what i'm talking about...
20:05:59 <b_jonas> okay, but what are those big buildings? are they some kind of industry?
20:06:27 <MNIM> the upper one is a vehicle factory
20:06:50 <MNIM> the lower one (at the seaside) is a glass factory
20:07:18 <b_jonas> gives you more place for your stations :-)
20:08:03 <b_jonas> the monorail bridge with a pillar right on the railway track also looks a bit strange
20:08:29 <b_jonas> perhaps it was designed before the better tracks under bridges got allowed
20:09:23 <MNIM> yeah, bridge pillars and diagonal rails don't go well together
20:09:34 <MNIM> anyway, it's 'planning track'
20:10:22 <MNIM> so you can cheaply layout future tracks where there's no traffic for them yet
20:15:12 <Eddi|zuHause> bridge pillar placement has not changed since original TT...
20:15:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't really blame the newgrfs for that
20:17:58 <b_jonas> well, Locomotion hides bridge pillars if something is under, but then that has other problems (floating railways)
20:18:47 <b_jonas> maybe there should be graphics for after 2050 that shows jets shooting down from the platforms instead of pillars
20:19:16 <MNIM> hmmmh. Rollercoaster tycoon doesn't have the problem.
20:19:37 <MNIM> while it is in fact (partially) based on the same engine
20:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i can blame he-who-has-patches-for-it that he doesn't have a patch for action1/2/3 for bridges
20:20:28 <b_jonas> if the bridge pillars are thin, they can just be in the corners of squares where no rail can possibly be -- though with signals things can get very crowded
20:20:36 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: bridge pillar placement has changed at least 3 times
20:20:41 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i did have a patch for that...
20:20:51 <b_jonas> frosch123: sure, for high bridges and the like
20:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i was speaking present tense :)
20:21:39 <peter1138> i probably do still have it :D
20:23:17 <b_jonas> but then, graphics for signals are hard to get right anyway, even without bridges
20:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it's not of much use if it's against r6000 :p
20:26:19 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, lol, no
20:26:51 <peter1138> --- engine.c (revision 3044)
20:27:49 <andythenorth> I blame he-who-has-patches for tgp
20:27:58 <andythenorth> and he-who-was-patching multi-stop docks :P
20:28:07 <andythenorth> and vehicle ferries
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20:28:47 <b_jonas> multi-stop docks? what are those?
20:29:39 <b_jonas> what would they mean?
20:30:58 <peter1138> multi-stop is the code name for "lots of road stops in one station"
20:31:38 <b_jonas> yes, I use that, though not like "lots of", only like up to four
20:31:54 <andythenorth> "lots of ships stops in one station"
20:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i think 12 was the highest i got
20:33:08 <b_jonas> no, I mean I use it for road vehicles
20:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, because it isn't implemented for docs
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