IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-12
00:06:59 <EyeMWing> This should crash in interesting ways.
00:10:30 <pjpe> i've never noticed how cool the planes move in this game before
00:12:21 <Swissfan91> ohhhhh, Swissfan91 has updated his sprites. What?
00:12:30 <pjpe> who
00:13:31 <Swissfan91> when?
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00:15:47 <jerry> can't reach bananas
00:15:58 <jerry> ingame
00:17:09 <EyeMWing> Down for me as well.
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00:51:41 <Elukka> what the...
00:51:52 <Elukka> why does YACD force destinations for FIRS industries even if it's off for cargo?
00:53:00 <pjpe> perhaps it is a bug
00:53:23 <pjpe> what does it mean when my banana has a large black streak on the outside of the inside-the-skin part
00:54:20 <pjpe> apparently it means they're ripe
00:54:23 <pjpe> hope i don't die
00:54:55 <Elukka> i guess it's about time i try a game with cargo destinations for industries
01:00:16 <Elukka> yes the banana will viciously murder you
01:00:46 <pjpe> tell my wife
01:00:47 <pjpe> hello
01:01:52 <Elukka> did you know bananas are so radioactive they occasionally trip radiation alarms in ports
01:02:10 <pjpe> yes
01:02:13 <pjpe> i dod
01:02:18 <pjpe> i very much so knew that
01:02:21 <pjpe> don't you feel special now
01:03:40 <Elukka> very special
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01:27:32 <Elukka> hmm... unforeseen downside to cargo destinations
01:27:43 <Elukka> it's extremely hard to get good ratings
01:32:23 <Elukka> how odd. CHIPS station pieces aren't working
01:32:29 <Elukka> trains just can't drive through them
01:33:40 <Elukka> hm. rebuilt the station and they can
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02:12:04 <EyeMWing> Wow. I've been hacking on this for like 2 hours and only just now got it to crash. I thought I was a much worse C++ developer than this.
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04:16:13 <Elukka> i lost a game of openttd
04:16:17 <Elukka> there's always a first i guess
04:16:36 <Elukka> starting year 1920, 2cc, YACD, they're evil
04:16:39 <Elukka> in a good way
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04:34:51 <pjpe> what makes the cost of converting rail?
04:34:56 <pjpe> is it just the cost of laying the new type of rail?
04:35:02 <pjpe> or is it new cost - old track cost
04:37:55 <Elukka> 240 tonnes of wood en route to cottbus sawmill, wood trucks sitting in station, not loading...
04:38:39 <Elukka> seems like every time i add a vehicle to a route in YACD it kinda breaks
04:39:01 <pjpe> in cargodist you sometimes have to wait a while for goods to get loaded on to trains
04:39:09 <pjpe> i'm guessing it's something about having destinations
04:39:32 <Elukka> i'm having some trucks come and load and go just fine, yet others just don't do anything
04:40:02 <Elukka> oh, they do, they just take months to start loading... then months to get to 50%, then months to get to 100
04:40:56 <Elukka> maybe it doesn't like the fast forward button
04:51:24 <Elukka> that indeed seems to have been it
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05:05:29 <Elukka> hm. or not. it just seems to take a lot of time for transport to work again after any changes to the network
05:13:05 <Elukka> George: is there any downside to refitting all buses to city transport in LV4?
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05:43:02 <George> Elukka: the only profit for refitting is changing a capacity
05:43:33 <George> LV4 is done, and no more work is intended
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05:44:03 <George> In LV5 higher capacity would mean slower speed and higher running costs
05:46:17 <Elukka> i see
05:46:28 <Elukka> that would make sense
05:47:34 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: prussian compartment coaches seemed to vary quite a bit in length, do we want them all to be one length or vary?
05:47:48 <Elukka> i mean, all the 3 axle ones for example
05:50:04 <EyeMWing> 3-axle coaches sound like they'd be great fun in curves.
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05:50:31 <Elukka> the center axle moved a bit sideways
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05:51:20 <EyeMWing> Yay for pre-Germany German engineering complexity.
05:52:00 <Elukka> i seem to remember reading something about them removing the center axle of some coaches to no great loss in performance...
05:52:35 <Elukka> i don't really understand why they had 3 axles in the first place, or why the rebuilt wagons kept them
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07:22:10 <appe> prussian sounds like dries up plums.
07:22:15 <appe> dried*
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07:50:17 <Terkhen> good morning
07:51:08 <Markk> Morning.
07:51:37 <planetmaker> moin
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08:19:01 <EyeMWing> Is the stop/start callback called only in depot, or when out on the line?
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08:22:27 <planetmaker> always
08:22:38 <planetmaker> iirc
08:23:09 <planetmaker> though thad'd be evil...
08:24:43 <EyeMWing> evil makes a good, clean-cut test case.
08:25:22 <EyeMWing> It doesn't seem to, though. Or at least I couldn't make it work.
08:25:41 <EyeMWing> well...
08:25:41 <EyeMWing> No
08:25:44 <EyeMWing> That's not quite right
08:28:28 <EyeMWing> yeah, I'm probably wrong. Was testing with a number that's out of range.
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08:50:28 <planetmaker> btw, EyeMWing, e ddi is right when he says that 'regearing cargo is a failed idea'
08:50:40 <planetmaker> it gives problems in all kind of constellations.
08:50:57 <planetmaker> Vehicle sets simply should not mess with cargos. There's enough types of newgrfs which do that
08:51:35 <planetmaker> pikka also abandoned the idea of that cargo (and he introduced it iirc)
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09:02:02 <EyeMWing> Yeah. I've got a generally workable solution for the immediate future.
09:03:48 <EyeMWing> Just use passengers and force capacity to 0 in the callback.
09:06:00 <EyeMWing> Results in some ugly UI, but it's fixable.
09:06:16 <b_jonas> you're implementing the bus from one of those films? if it stops, everyone dies?
09:07:30 <EyeMWing> A train that won't start facing uphill, actually.
09:09:13 <b_jonas> (like )
09:09:22 <b_jonas> EyeMWing: eww, that's evil
09:09:39 <b_jonas> I mean, stations are always flat
09:09:44 <b_jonas> so that happens only at signals, right?
09:10:38 <dihedral> greetings
09:11:12 <EyeMWing> Nah, it only gets called when you hit the start/stop button. And it's a patch test anyway, not for actual play.
09:11:42 <b_jonas> ah
09:11:54 <b_jonas> so it's not called when the train stops for traffic reasons?
09:13:29 <EyeMWing> As far as I'm aware, anyway.
09:13:47 <EyeMWing> I didn't exactly build any signals to test with.
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09:46:54 <TrueBrain> NOTICE: OpenTTD Web Services will be temporary unreachable due to a kernel upgrade on the gateway.
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09:56:45 <_1009> Is there some documentation available as to what planes do in GUIs? I see that that is the thing that is determining whether the Break On-button gets in or not
09:58:03 <planetmaker> the source is the best documentation you can get
09:58:07 <planetmaker> probably also the only one
09:58:17 <planetmaker> except the doxygen for the widget functions
09:58:24 <_1009> Okido
10:30:50 <_1009> Yexo, your hint about the "break on" widget has helped me a great deal, I got the hiding thing to work now, cheers :)
10:31:04 <Yexo> you're welcome :)
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10:55:17 <SpComb> michi_cc's AAAA's not working
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11:20:51 <_1009> I got everything of the Stop AI cheat working except redrawing the Window when the AI Cheat is pressed when the Window is still open... you have to re-open it to see the "Stop AI" button. Would this have to be added in OnPaint(){}? And if so, in what way? (I can't get it to work there)
11:25:52 <planetmaker> that works via invalidation by window class
11:26:14 <planetmaker> i.e. the cheat window would need to invalidate that AI window then
11:26:21 <planetmaker> or a change to that cheat rather
11:27:37 <planetmaker> SetWindowClassesDirty(WC_XXX) would need to be called there
11:27:52 <planetmaker> where WC_XXX is the window class of the AI window you're dealing with
11:28:04 <_1009> Ah, great. So, the Change Production Cheat invalidates the Industry GUI?
11:28:06 <planetmaker> and there is in the cheat window when that cheat is toggled
11:28:09 <planetmaker> yes
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11:28:18 <_1009> Great, great, then I should have enough examples
11:28:41 <planetmaker> maybe you can also invalidate a single window, and not by class...
11:28:47 <planetmaker> dunno right now :-)
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11:29:59 <planetmaker> maybe InvalidateWindowData(WC_XXX) is sufficient.
11:30:49 <_1009> I used InvalidateWindowClassesData(WC_AI_DEBUG); at the moment (taken from the Production cheat)
11:31:52 <_1009> I'll be back later and then I'll be finishing this thing @.@
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13:04:29 <_1009> Hm, I don´t think I´ll be able to complete that cheat today. The invalidation message arrives at the AI GUI, but nothing is redrawn.
13:05:20 <planetmaker> Maybe it misses the method OnInvalidate() which ReInit() s the window
13:05:53 <_1009> It has OnInvalidate() where much other stuff happens, I haven´t seen ReInit() in it though
13:06:20 <_1009> I thought marking the required widgets as dirty would be enough
13:08:51 <_1009> Hah... XD I should´ve said this earlier, because that was all that was required, ReInit. Cheers. :)
13:09:20 <planetmaker> :-)
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13:13:06 <_1009> Alright... great. So what should I do now, update my version to trunk again, make a patch and post it somewhere on the forums? What´s an appropriate approach?
13:13:17 <Belugas> hi
13:13:33 <peter1138> hi
13:16:38 <Yexo> update to latest trunk, create a patch and post it on
13:17:05 <Yexo> posting to the forums is more useful if you want a lot of feedback from users, but that doesn't seem to be the case here
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13:17:46 <_1009> Alright, thanks.
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13:42:03 <_1009> Okido, posted it. Yay. :3
13:49:25 <Yexo> _1009: your diff is revered, that makes it a bit harder to read
13:49:56 <Yexo> CHT_STOP_AI, ///< Stop an AI. <- uses spaced for aligning the comment, not tabs
13:50:41 <_1009> Okay, I will
13:51:01 <_1009> What do you mean by revered? Is it caused by me using git or pressing the wrong buttons?
13:51:08 <planetmaker> reversed probably
13:51:26 <Yexo> the patch file has - in front of the lines you added and + for lines you removed instead of the other way around
13:51:52 <Yexo> it has nothing to do with git in itself
13:52:12 <Yexo> but you probably made diff between "working copy and tip" instead of between "tip and working copy" or something like that
13:53:17 <Yexo> I don't see the use for the variable show_stop_ai, you could as well use the result from isAIStopable() directly (you assign it twice and only use it directly after assignment)
13:54:39 <Yexo> also if you make stop_ai a cheat, perhaps the same should be done for "reload_ai"?
13:54:50 <Yexo> maybe with the exception that if an AI crashed you can reload it always
13:55:33 <Yexo> so enable the "reload_ai" button when one of these is true: "AI has crashed", "stop ai cheat is on", "ai_developer_tools is on"
13:55:44 <Yexo> and never hide that one, just disable it
13:56:35 <planetmaker> well... developer stuff is usually hidden when the developer tools are off
13:56:50 <Yexo> yes, but "reload_ai" is very valid for normal users when an AI crashes
13:56:58 <planetmaker> yes. And stop_ai?
13:57:16 <planetmaker> I agree with reload_ai
13:57:47 <Yexo> you mean "stop_ai" as alternative for "reload_ai" when an AI crashes?
13:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> why would a normal user need reload_ai? asides from AIs better not crashing, the game starts a new AI on that slot later automatically
13:58:14 <Yexo> hmm, true
13:58:29 <Yexo> drop the "AI has crashed" requirement then and hide it instead of disabling it
13:59:06 <planetmaker> hm... a new AI is not started automatically
13:59:13 <planetmaker> only if the company is removed after an AI crash
13:59:53 <planetmaker> hm... or is it restarted automatically with the same company... hm...
13:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i thought it removes the company automatically, just like going bankrupt
14:00:00 <Yexo> eddi: if the AI has build a profitable company it will take quite a long time for it to go bankrupt (if ever)
14:00:37 <Yexo> no, the same AI is started if you save/load the game, or a random one (or the same, depending on settings) is started after the company has gone bankrupt
14:01:13 <Yexo> however the save/load workaround might be good enough for normal users, in addition to the cheat
14:01:15 <_1009> Yexo, I see what I did wrong, I indeed did tip / working copy the wrong way around.
14:01:32 <Yexo> _1009: you can just leave out those arguments (just do "git diff")
14:01:42 <_1009> And I agree that the variable is not useful. Do you want me to change it or is it changed already?
14:01:51 <Markk> Is there any AI that doesn't build tracks with 90 degrees turns?
14:01:54 <Yexo> I haven't done anything, it's your diff
14:01:58 <_1009> Okido
14:02:04 <Yexo> Markk: AdmiralAI :)
14:02:18 <Markk> Neat, I'll check it out. :)
14:02:19 <Markk> Cheers.
14:02:20 <b_jonas> well, technically, there are AIs that don't build rail at all
14:02:37 <Yexo> Markk: there might be others, I don't know. That one is mine so I'm sure it doesn't
14:02:42 <planetmaker> I'd have bet other AIs who build rail also work without 90°
14:02:45 <_1009> I had trouble with the giff thing since I hadn´t done that before, that causes the weirdness.
14:02:52 <Yexo> planetmaker: not all of them
14:03:01 <planetmaker> not all, for sure
14:03:44 <b_jonas> sometimes it's worth to build a 90 deg turn, like in places where the train is slowed down by some other factor anyway, or in tracks you want trains to avoid
14:04:19 <Yexo> I always play with 90 deg turns disabled
14:04:38 <Pinkbeast> God, yes, they look so horrible.
14:05:11 <b_jonas> can a train intersect itself in openttd without crashing?
14:05:20 <Pinkbeast> jonas> Yes, last I tried it
14:05:21 <_1009> SimpleAI doesn´t build 90 deg turns either I think
14:05:44 <b_jonas> thanks
14:05:57 <Pinkbeast> I ain't promising that hasn't been fixed since, mind.
14:06:16 <Markk> Yexo: Okey :)
14:08:02 <Yexo> b_jonas: yes, it can. It takes too much time to check if a train intersects with itself so those cases are deliberately ignored
14:10:25 <Belugas> in fact, iirc, it's on the known bugs section of the read me
14:10:55 <b_jonas> I guess long trains make it especially difficult
14:12:57 <Yexo>
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14:21:52 <Yexo> CHT_STOP_AI, ///< Stop an AI <- still using tabs instead of spaces
14:22:27 <Yexo> + {SLE_BOOL, STR_CHEAT_STOP_AI, <- same for that line
14:22:50 <Yexo> the latter will also need some sort of savegame conversion code
14:26:50 <_1009> I thought SLE_BOOL was enough for savegame conversion already?
14:27:00 <Yexo> that line is only for the gui
14:27:12 <_1009> Alright, let me change the tabs anyway (I guess I forgot)
14:27:48 <Yexo> I think the only thing needed is to increase the savegame version by one (saveload/saveload.cpp) and to initialize the new cheat to zero for old savegames (saveload/afterload.cpp)
14:28:11 <Yexo> the latter can alternatively be done in saveload/cheat_sl.cpp (in Load_CHTS)
14:31:11 <_1009> Ah, I see. Heh, I didn´t keep that into account at all. :)
14:34:10 <planetmaker> common oversight :-)
14:34:18 <planetmaker> Welcome to the world of backward compatibility ;-)
14:35:00 <_1009> Haha, yea, I´m glad I get to experience that before I break some important stuff :)
14:39:57 <_1009> Loading a before-my-patch game though works completely fine... or can that be version-dependent/
14:46:29 <__ln__> _1009: please use the correct apostrophe character.
14:47:11 <_1009> I wish I could easily, but I am currently using Pidgin and have not found yet how to. =<
14:48:29 <__ln__> it's on the keyboard.
14:49:21 <_1009> I am pressing it ´´´´
14:49:48 <__ln__> that's the wrong button. now try the one next to the return (enter) key.
14:49:55 <_1009> ;-)
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14:50:23 <_1009> Look. Next to my 1: `. Next to my return: ´.
14:51:01 <__ln__> your keyboard is ill and needs to see a doctor.
14:51:03 <planetmaker> __ln__, assumes a keyboard layout which you probably don't have ;-)
14:51:17 <_1009> It´s not my keyboard, it´s this Pidgin text window
14:51:17 <_1009> Wait
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14:51:32 <Yexo> wrong key? :p
14:51:37 <planetmaker> probably :-P
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14:51:43 <_1009> In Chatzilla it's fine.
14:51:49 <planetmaker> is it?
14:51:59 <planetmaker> then it's the wrong programme ;-)
14:52:06 <_1009> I know
14:52:24 <_1009> I haven't been able to find it yet.
14:52:44 <TWerkhoven> what if you try alt-39 ?
14:53:00 <planetmaker> sounds very convenient way just to type "'"
14:53:21 <TWerkhoven> but if it works, maybe he can bind a key to do just that in pidgin
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14:55:07 <_1009-C> alt-39 looks to come out empty
14:55:39 <_1009-C> I'll just try connecting with Chatzilla until I know what the problem is :<
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14:56:38 * planetmaker feels that the problem was just totally exagerated
14:56:45 * _1009-C shrugs
14:57:09 <_1009-C> I wouldn't like to piss off members that don't have those weird apostrophes installed on their computer
14:58:28 <_1009-C> Anyway planetmaker, to me it doesn't seem like the new cheat can cause any issues with older saves... can you tell me why it can? And if it can, how do I circumvent it? I can add something to afterload.cpp but to me it's not clear /what/ to add
14:58:37 <planetmaker> it's not apostrophs, it's accents ;-)
14:59:33 <_1009-C> Eh. Right.
14:59:53 <planetmaker> _1009-C, the old savegames have a different cheat structure stored which misses the new variable. And it should be initialized to 'not used' when such savegame is loaded
15:00:14 <_1009-C> But it is not used by default, right?
15:00:28 <_1009-C> I mean, that's what happens when I load an old game for example
15:00:28 <planetmaker> so... what happens when I used it and then load an old savegame?
15:00:55 <_1009-C> Nothing. It just works, it's off and unused.
15:01:06 <_1009-C> Right?
15:01:08 <_1009-C> o_O
15:01:54 <_1009-C> I tested that before, I thought. let me try it again.
15:03:03 <_1009-C> Yea, that works without a problem.
15:04:10 <Yexo> ah, InitializeGame already sets every cheat to 0
15:04:17 <Yexo> so no conversion code needed in this case
15:04:57 <_1009-C> So this is rather an exception than a usual thing?
15:05:06 <Yexo> yes
15:05:18 <Yexo> if you create a savegame with your patch applied and try to load it in yesterdays nightly it won't load but instead say "invalid savegame"
15:05:35 <Yexo> by increasing the savegame version you'd get it to report "savegame made with newer version" instead
15:05:58 <_1009-C> Hm, I see.
15:06:25 <_1009-C> So, to wrap up, it's not needed to increase the savegame version because InitializeGame already sets everything to 0 at first?
15:07:01 <planetmaker> No :-). But you need to not take special care of it when loading old savegames
15:07:25 <planetmaker> i.e. conversion code is not needed. Savegame bunp is.
15:08:50 <_1009-C> OK.
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15:15:54 <__ln__>
15:24:10 <peter1138> heh
15:28:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "what language do you speak [in England]?" <-- the correct answer is: some mixture between french and german
15:29:48 <planetmaker> is that then a kind of endless circle if you define Dutch as a mixture betwwen German and English?
15:31:35 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, dutch is english when you leave out some of the french parts ;)
15:33:04 <planetmaker> neither English nor French are good at the ch-sounds ;-)
15:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> (of course there are feedback loops between languages)
15:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "I just got back to the US from studying in London for a year. Someone asked me if I was now fluent in french. How are you supposed to respond to that?" - "Non."
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16:04:53 <MNIM> Eddi: I beg to differ.
16:05:30 <MNIM> Dutch is *far* more resemblant to German than it is to English
16:07:23 <Rubidium> isn't English more from Frisian than Dutch (back in the days at least)
16:07:39 <TWerkhoven> yup
16:08:00 <MNIM> neither.
16:08:05 <MNIM> Actually
16:08:09 <TWerkhoven> original frisian rather than the current watered down stuff
16:08:22 <MNIM> English is more resembling to french and latin than it is to any germanic language
16:09:10 <Rubidium> in any case, they messed up words ;)
16:09:31 <MNIM> mostly because England and France have both been parts of eachother on multiple occasions before, while the Netherlands have only been occupied by Englishmen once during the Napoleonic wars.
16:10:01 <MNIM> a short-lived occupation of only a single dutch island, at that
16:10:29 <Rubidium> e.g. knight comes from the "knecht" (Dutch/German), but in Dutch/German it's the help of the knight, not the night itself
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16:12:30 <MNIM> hehehe
16:12:41 <MNIM> you call a knave what we call a knecht
16:14:54 <Rubidium> in Dutch/German knight => ridder/ritter
16:16:34 <MNIM> which means 'rider'
16:16:47 <MNIM> as does the french 'cavalier'
16:18:03 <__ln__> with all these strange languages around the continent, it's quite a luck that all the space aliens chose to speak english.
16:19:36 <Rubidium> I doubt that
16:19:43 <Rubidium> that ridder means rider
16:20:11 <MNIM> it does.
16:20:13 <Rubidium> in Dutch someone who rides a horse is a (paard)rijder
16:20:53 <Yexo> "ridder" means "knight" or equivalent, not "rider"
16:21:19 <MNIM> I should rephrase my words.
16:21:22 <Yexo> "rider" could maybe be translated with "ruiter"?
16:21:51 <MNIM> it's etymological origin comes from rider
16:22:15 <MNIM> Yexo: true.
16:22:15 <__ln__> "paard" is horse? ... then "luipaard" is what sort of horse?
16:22:29 <Yexo> that I don't doubt
16:22:30 <MNIM> a cheetah, actually.
16:22:39 <Yexo> __ln__: "lui" means "lazy"
16:22:43 <Yexo> so a lazy horse ;)
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16:22:55 <__ln__> it doesn't look much like a horse though :)
16:23:00 <MNIM> quite probably caused by that it is both faster than a hourse, yet it mostly lays around all day
16:23:30 <MNIM> same like a bike is called an 'iron horse' - yet it looks nothing like one.
16:23:50 * __ln__ checks the OED to see where does the english word come from
16:23:59 <MNIM> anyway
16:24:11 <MNIM> 'leopard' remind you of anything?
16:24:41 <MNIM> these words are quite likely related, though I can't tell you whether the chicken or the egg came first
16:24:41 <Yexo> MNIM: "iron horse" for bike? I've only heard it used as synonym for a train engine
16:24:53 <__ln__> MNIM: yes, it reminds me of a Mac OS X version.
16:25:04 <planetmaker> in German we have a "Drahtesel", Yexo :-)
16:25:18 <planetmaker> Which is a joking synonymous for bike
16:25:28 <planetmaker> (wire-donkey)
16:26:03 <__ln__> Etymology: Middle English leopard, also lebard, lubard, leupard, etc., < Old French leopard, lebard, leupard, etc. (modern French léopard), < late Latin leopardus ( Hist. Aug.), < late Greek λεόπαρδος (S. Ignat., Galen), also λεοντόπαρδος (and λεοντοπάρδαλος, ? 4th cent.), < λεοντ-, λέωνlion n. + πάρδοςpard n.1
16:26:04 <MNIM> yexo: it used to occupy the same niche In traffic as a horse for ages
16:26:05 <Yexo> didn't know that one :)
16:26:47 <MNIM> as they have about the same speed and loading capacity, for about the same price (back then)
16:27:16 <__ln__> "The animal originally so named was supposed to be a hybrid between lion and ‘pard’: compare Plin. N.H. viii. xvii, ‘[Leones] quos pardi generavere’."
16:27:19 <MNIM> well, horses cost more and carry more, but they were employed by the same people
16:28:03 <MNIM> the baker had a horse with a carriage to bring the bread to your door, or he had a three-wheeled 'bakfiets'
16:29:02 <MNIM> (backfiets: a bike with the front-end replaced with two wheels on an axle and an open box (bak) on it
16:29:09 <MNIM> *bakfiets
16:29:40 <MNIM>
16:29:57 <MNIM> my niece just married in one of those just last weekend. :P
16:30:36 <MNIM> though apparently it got upgraded to a Mercedes SLK sometime during the ceremony. :P
16:30:49 <MNIM> guess the newly-married groom got tired of pedaling.
16:30:52 <MNIM> hmmmh
16:31:50 <MNIM> that's an idea for a small capacity OTTD vehicle
16:32:22 <MNIM> carrier bikes and rickshaws
16:32:46 <MNIM> well, for the 1850-1940 era
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16:45:15 <_1009> That's a cute idea MNIM
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16:48:21 <b_jonas> and a Swiss military version too that has larger capacity and gets a bonus for going up mountains
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17:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <__ln__> with all these strange languages around the continent, it's quite a luck that all the space aliens chose to speak english. <-- what? all space aliens i ever saw spoke german.
17:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> <Yexo> __ln__: "lui" means "lazy" <-- i have a feeling in this case it's derived from "Lion" (Leo)
17:27:55 <Terkhen> heh
17:28:51 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: (if you know some dutch)
17:29:52 <valhallasw> no links to lion though :-)
17:31:31 <__ln__> "Onl. alleen het simplex pardo ‘luipaard’ in ther sint leuwon legor ande pardon holer ‘daar zijn legers van leeuwen en holen van luipaarden’"
17:32:35 <__ln__> (from the obvious other page)
17:33:12 <valhallasw> oh, wait, I should have highlighted you. *slaps himself*
17:33:35 <TrueBrain> do you guys ever talk about OpenTTD? Sjeesss...
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17:33:58 <planetmaker> wait... what's that?
17:34:03 <PeanutHorst> so tempted to create my own NewGRF ...
17:34:04 <TrueBrain> I am not 100% sure
17:34:19 <PeanutHorst> but i want to make it compatible with the 32bpp patches
17:34:26 <planetmaker> ah, ok... so... some dream phantasy?
17:34:28 <PeanutHorst> / extra zoom-level
17:34:39 <planetmaker> then do so, PeanutHorst
17:34:40 <TrueBrain> most likely
17:34:57 <valhallasw>, TrueBrain, no clue what it is.
17:34:58 <PeanutHorst> planetmaker: is this a real game, is it dream phantasy(sic)
17:35:18 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: and if that site doesnt have it, it doesn't exist
17:35:37 <valhallasw> Of course!
17:36:00 <planetmaker> not on google == not existent, right?
17:36:14 <planetmaker> or is there more to the world?
17:36:25 <TrueBrain> when I shut down my computer, the world stops
17:36:27 <TrueBrain> so no
17:36:47 <planetmaker> ok. Seems so then. Just keep it running, or we're all doomed!
17:36:48 <planetmaker> ;;-)
17:36:54 <valhallasw> Then, let me give you a relevant piece of music
17:36:56 <valhallasw>
17:37:46 <__ln__> maybe there should be #openttd-openttd, which would be a place to speaek about OpenTTD.
17:37:54 <__ln__> -e
17:38:04 <TrueBrain> I can also just kcik everyone who doesn't talk about OpenTTD
17:38:04 <planetmaker> well, we all know this is the new #tycoon ;-)
17:38:06 <TrueBrain> much more fun for me :D
17:38:11 <valhallasw> __ln__: or we could use that channel to discuss what we should discuss here!
17:38:12 <planetmaker> We simply forgot to send people there ;-)
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17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22928 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt slovak.txt slovenian.txt):
17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 8 changes by IPG
17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovak - 110 changes by klingacik
17:45:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovenian - 26 changes by Necrolyte
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17:47:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22929 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt: -Fix (r22929): WT3 validation failure
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17:54:22 <Wolf01> hello
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18:15:06 <Hirundo> r22929 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt: -Fix (r22929): WT3 validation failure <- recursive fixes :o
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18:21:15 <KingJ> Have tunnels gained a speed penalty recently, or is this just something to do with the 2cc trainset?
18:28:01 <andythenorth> hello
18:28:40 <planetmaker> KingJ: they did gain a power penalty
18:28:48 <planetmaker> (more airdrag)
18:28:51 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth
18:30:12 <andythenorth> what ho
18:31:48 * andythenorth should do some FIRS or such
18:32:20 <Elukka> do YACD, FIRS, and 2cc and actually go bankrupt
18:32:30 <Elukka> oh as in do it.
18:32:35 <Elukka> even better
18:33:19 <KingJ> planetmaker: aha, that explains. Thanks!
18:34:55 <planetmaker> KingJ: take a strong enough engine and you won't feel it :-)
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19:19:39 <andythenorth> any ponies?
19:20:13 <V453000> mooo
19:21:21 <andythenorth> hmm
19:21:23 <andythenorth> wrong noise
19:21:27 <andythenorth> did I mention...
19:22:31 <V453000> :P
19:22:34 <V453000> by the way
19:22:38 <V453000> what colour would barrels be
19:23:15 <andythenorth> cc
19:23:32 <Elukka> there are no ponies
19:23:38 <Elukka> this has been declared a no-pony zone
19:23:58 * andythenorth has seen ponies here
19:24:21 <appe> ponie grf, puh-leaze.
19:24:38 * Elukka explodes
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19:35:17 <Swissfan91> hello all. I'm thinking of drawing some sprites for a pedestrianised street, probably just as a newobject for now. Does anyone know how I make it so you can keep clicking on the tile and people appear in random places? Similar to how DWE stations has cargo containers that appear randomly the more you click.
19:37:37 <frosch123> objects have random bits which you can use
19:37:45 <frosch123> they are randomised whenever the object is build
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19:38:36 <frosch123> there is no such thing as counting how often something is build on a tile
19:38:47 <frosch123> that is, not for stations either
19:40:28 <Swissfan91> so, it is just a coding technique?
19:40:55 <EyeMWing> Yeah, just pick random variations on the graphics instead of defining a static one.
19:40:56 <Elukka> andythenorth: have you ever tried FIRS with YACD?
19:41:01 <frosch123> you draw different sprites
19:41:08 <frosch123> later you select one of them randomly
19:41:11 <Elukka> YACD can't seen to differentiate what is cargo and what is passengers/mail
19:41:16 <andythenorth> Elukka: yes, I've tried it a lot
19:41:18 <frosch123> you can also combine one sprite from several
19:41:18 <Elukka> it will always give destinations for everything regardless of the settings
19:41:37 <andythenorth> I haven't tried it with any setting except 'destinations for everything'
19:41:37 <andythenorth> :P
19:41:42 <Swissfan91> Ah ok, thanks guys.
19:41:47 <EyeMWing> A pedestrianized street in a game about efficient transport is a delightfully sadistic idea, too.
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19:41:56 <frosch123> so if you have some variety in different places, you do not have to draw all combinations of those
19:42:01 <Elukka> well, it'd be nice to be able to toggle it
19:42:03 <frosch123> but they can be composed at runtime
19:42:09 <Elukka> i don't know if it's a problem in YACD or FIRS though
19:42:39 <andythenorth> I wouldn't rule out a bug in FIRS
19:42:46 <andythenorth> but more likely a YACD issue
19:42:48 <Swissfan91> are 2x2 buildings allowed ? :P
19:42:53 <andythenorth> Swissfan91: yes
19:43:07 <frosch123> objects can be of size up to 16x16
19:43:08 <planetmaker> EyeMWing: search in google the route from Paris to NewYork ;-)
19:43:12 <planetmaker> that is sadistic ;-)
19:43:13 <frosch123> but they are bulldozes at a whole
19:43:26 <planetmaker> Swissfan91: yes
19:43:39 <Swissfan91> sorry. I mean, in a town set. Not as a newobject now.
19:43:41 <frosch123> if they shall be removable as single tiles, they must be build as single tiles as well
19:43:52 <andythenorth> houses can be 2x2, e.g. supermarket, stadium
19:43:54 <frosch123> houses are limited to 2x2
19:44:06 <planetmaker> Swissfan91: if you say 'building' it implies 'town house'
19:44:20 <planetmaker> you should just play the game... ;-)
19:44:30 <planetmaker> then that question is answered very quickly :-P
19:44:51 <Swissfan91> sorry yeah. mind blank :)
19:45:03 <Swissfan91> @frosch123 - what do you mean?
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19:45:41 <frosch123> where?
19:46:49 <Swissfan91> were you talking about newobjects when you said about removing single tiles?
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19:47:25 <frosch123> yes
19:47:35 <frosch123> objects are removed in a whole
19:47:47 <Elukka> okay the YACd toggles don't work for ECS either, i guess it's YACD that's the problem
19:47:49 <frosch123> they are not like fileds
19:47:52 <frosch123> *fields
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19:48:01 <frosch123> where you can remove single tiles
19:48:08 <frosch123> without clearing the whole field
19:48:16 <Swissfan91> I see. So my newobject Cable Car station, which is 2x2, will cause a problem?
19:48:29 <frosch123> no
19:48:42 <frosch123> but if you make a object for a 1x5 road
19:48:51 <frosch123> you can only remove the whole 1x5 road
19:49:56 <Swissfan91> I see. I was thinking of making a blank road tile, and then 5 or 6 with pedestrians in different places. Is that the best way to do it?
19:50:24 <frosch123> take a look at the "company land" object in opengfx+landscape
19:53:06 <planetmaker> ingame it's meanwhile called 'fenced land' ;-)
19:53:19 <planetmaker> I found 'company land' too confusing
19:53:41 <andythenorth> hmm
19:53:44 <andythenorth> newgrf-fields
19:53:53 <andythenorth> a project abandoned for good reason :)
19:54:03 <planetmaker> good? ;-)
19:54:14 <planetmaker> or rather... abandoned?
19:54:18 <andythenorth> ask frosch123
19:54:37 <frosch123> it was definitely coded the wrong way :p
19:54:49 <planetmaker> I know that it was ... put on the shelf. But the feature I think is not 'abandoned'
19:54:55 <planetmaker> just one implementation
19:55:07 <planetmaker> s/abandoned/rejected/
19:55:14 <frosch123> we need some solution for irregular and draggable objects
19:55:20 <planetmaker> yup
19:56:48 <Ruben_> Hi guys. I have a problem starting a multiplayer game. I'm on version 1.1.2, but each time I hit the 'find server' button, it freezes the game.
19:57:02 <Ruben_> Anyone know a solution/can help me?
19:57:21 <planetmaker> a bit more patience?
19:57:38 <Ruben_> Well, the game freezes and shows 'Not responding'...
19:57:47 <frosch123> when was the windows issue wrt. name resolving fixed?
19:58:03 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
19:58:07 <Ruben_> So I guess that will take a lot of patience :)
19:58:26 *** pugi has joined #openttd
19:58:44 <frosch123> it was fixed in 1.1.2 :p
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19:59:56 <planetmaker> Ruben_: and your port 3979 is free and not blocked by antivirus etc?
20:00:13 <planetmaker> or in the router or whereever
20:00:24 <andythenorth> would fields be similar to objects, except created by an industry, and over-buildable by anyone?
20:00:35 <Ruben_> Let me check planetmaker
20:00:40 <planetmaker> I'd imagine that be the case, andythenorth
20:01:22 <andythenorth> hmm
20:01:39 <andythenorth> newobjects were not existing when fields were tested
20:01:39 <planetmaker> though one can certainly envision some flags for fields which make killing them subject to conditions
20:01:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess today it would be an extention to objects
20:02:07 <frosch123> i.e. add the field-specific stuff to objects
20:02:14 <frosch123> and let industries build objects
20:02:53 <frosch123> though i wonder when we will run out of object ids :p
20:03:18 <Rubidium> before NFOv8
20:03:36 <frosch123> Rubidium: i mean the limitation of m2
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20:03:42 <frosch123> 64000 per map
20:04:03 <LordAro> evenings
20:04:12 <frosch123> it you have 1000 farms, and each plant 64 fields :p
20:04:33 <frosch123> you can run out of objects already today
20:04:43 <frosch123> just build a 256x256 area of "fenced land" :p
20:04:48 <planetmaker> hi LordAro
20:05:32 <LordAro> hi planetmaker
20:05:43 <planetmaker> frosch123: then we really need irregular objects... or maybe fields are just assortments of one-tile-objects
20:05:45 <planetmaker> probably better
20:05:54 <planetmaker> hm...
20:06:03 <planetmaker> it needs *some* extension :-)
20:06:13 <frosch123> well, the idea would be that dragging an object would only require one id
20:06:39 <Ruben_> planetmaker: I guess that's the problem thanks
20:06:50 <frosch123> fields otoh have only the industry id
20:06:51 <planetmaker> dragging would also be nice for fenced land, foobar's road shoulders etc
20:06:51 <Ruben_> I tried on another computer and there it works w/o problems
20:07:01 <frosch123> while there is no per-field id
20:07:19 <planetmaker> good, Ruben_ :-)
20:07:27 <Ruben_> Well too bad for me :p
20:07:34 <Ruben_> I cannot change firewall settings on this computer
20:07:37 <Ruben_> sigh
20:07:38 <planetmaker> just check your personal firewall settings. oh
20:07:40 <Ruben_> :)
20:07:49 <planetmaker> well, talk to your parents then (if that's who can change it)
20:07:54 <Ruben_> haha
20:07:57 <Ruben_> my company you mean :p
20:08:01 <planetmaker> :-D
20:08:17 <Ruben_> I think... they will not allow me to change firewall settings for OTTD
20:08:21 <planetmaker> better not then ;-)
20:08:30 <Ruben_> just a feeling :)
20:08:35 <Ruben_> anyway thanks for your help!
20:08:47 <planetmaker> np
20:09:00 <Ruben_> have a nice evening
20:09:04 <planetmaker> get an android phone - it's said the port exists ;-)
20:10:59 <Elukka> funny
20:11:05 <Elukka> i'm just pondering android phones
20:11:08 *** Ruben_ has quit IRC
20:11:27 <Elukka> they're finally in the price range i'm willing to pay for a phone :P
20:11:59 <LordAro> Elukka, likewise :)
20:11:59 *** PeanutHorst has quit IRC
20:12:10 <Elukka> that is, max 100 eur
20:12:20 * andythenorth has an iStupidPhone
20:12:30 <Elukka> it's looking like ZTE Blade or Samsung Galaxy 5
20:12:45 * andythenorth has an iTmakesMeCrossPhone
20:12:47 <Elukka> the zte has a much better screen and somewhat better hardware
20:16:41 <Elukka> heh i can see what's happening with chinese manufacturers
20:17:02 <Elukka> first they're used by foreign companies to make their hardware, then they use their expertise to make their own stuff
20:17:29 <andythenorth> yeah
20:17:31 <andythenorth> odd that :P
20:18:14 <Elukka> i bet in 10 years or sooner we'll have chinese brands equally known as, say, nokia or sony
20:22:07 <Rubidium> YKK?
20:22:43 <Rubidium> hmm, sorry... that ain't Chinese but Japanese
20:22:55 <Rubidium> but I'd argue that you have some of their products in house
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20:23:53 <Chris_Booth> hi guys
20:25:14 <Chris_Booth> has anyone reported any bugs with the windows version of openttd (r22815)? there seems to be an issue with the mouse/curser dissapearing with moving/resizing th windows. Aswell as when you try to close the window
20:25:28 <Chris_Booth> but not when you move down to the windows task bar
20:25:44 <Chris_Booth> shall I add this to flysrpay?
20:26:13 <TrueBrain> all give a big hug to Yexo for making our website less annoying when navigating :D No longer it blanks white till the logos are loaded, but it is much more fluent :D:D:D:D
20:26:15 * TrueBrain parties
20:26:29 <LordAro> :D
20:26:38 <planetmaker> :-)
20:27:00 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: and it doesn't happen with any other version?
20:27:00 <Chris_Booth> 'to flyspray or not?
20:27:10 <Chris_Booth> not sure Rubidium, I am a windows user
20:27:30 <Chris_Booth> and the fellow windows user in #openttdcoop all agreed
20:27:42 <Rubidium> version of OpenTTD...
20:28:03 <Chris_Booth> read my post Rubidium
20:28:36 <Chris_Booth> only seem to do it in that nightly and not current stable
20:29:22 <Rubidium> thing is that I don't see any recent Windows specific changes
20:29:39 <Chris_Booth> seems to be win 32 only
20:29:40 <Rubidium> if I look to the video driver it must be there for at least ~6 months
20:30:10 <Chris_Booth> I can video the issue for you
20:30:34 <Chris_Booth> it when the game mouse is swaped back for windows mouse, on top of the screen
20:30:41 <Chris_Booth> but not on the bottom of the screen
20:31:01 <Rubidium> well, make the video and file a bug report I guess
20:31:11 <Chris_Booth> ok will do
20:31:16 <Rubidium> (with the video attached)
20:31:47 <Chris_Booth> yep
20:32:01 <EyeMWing> FWIW, I don't see it in R22427 Win32
20:32:43 <Rubidium> it would be nice if you are able to tell which revision (i.e. nightly) introduced it
20:32:57 <Rubidium> but you're sure there is no problem with 1.1.2?
20:33:58 <EyeMWing> Nor in a 20-minute-old trunk build.
20:34:46 <Rubidium> EyeMWing: but you can reproduce it in r22815?
20:34:55 <EyeMWing> Pulling that down now.
20:37:56 <Chris_Booth> Rubidium: something even more strange now, when I turned on camstudio to record my desktop openttd strat working
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20:38:47 <Rubidium> typical quantum bug ;)
20:39:08 <Rubidium> or Heisenbug
20:40:02 <Chris_Booth> well the bug is still on the screen (for the user) but my desktop cam still shows the mouse
20:41:17 <EyeMWing> No go in r22815 Win32. Running on Win7 x64 with Aero turned on.
20:41:56 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: on the video it all looks correct?
20:42:03 <Chris_Booth> yes
20:42:09 <EyeMWing> Sounds to me like something upstream isn't compositing correctly.
20:42:28 <Chris_Booth> the video looks great
20:42:29 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: then it's not OpenTTD, but something between OpenTTD and your screen
20:42:46 <Chris_Booth> not just my screen Rubidium but lots of windows users
20:43:01 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: then it's maybe some windows update or something
20:43:22 <Chris_Booth> might be an areo upgdate
20:43:27 <Chris_Booth> was just going to try with areo off
20:43:35 <Rubidium> if the video is correct, then OpenTTD must be sending the right data. Otherwise it simply cannot show the right graphics
20:44:04 <Rubidium> which basically means that the video has provided proof that OpenTTD is not the buggy bit
20:44:38 <Rubidium> that it triggers something buggy in something else is something completely else
20:44:54 <EyeMWing> Most likely the video driver, if I remember how CamStudio works.
20:45:21 <Chris_Booth> hhhm, seems to me like areo is the issue
20:45:31 <Chris_Booth> as with areo off I can see the mouse at all times
20:45:38 <Chris_Booth> as soon as I turn it on it breaks
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20:48:37 <V453000> I am having a similar issue, noticed it when upgrading between r22727 and r22815
20:48:44 <V453000> or the same one probably :)
20:49:20 <Chris_Booth> you try and get a video or screen shot of it V453000. The mouse is there
20:50:38 <Yexo> V453000: can you try and go back to r22727 and confirm it doesn't have the issue?
20:50:40 <V453000> guess it is only situational, cant reproduce it now
20:50:51 <Yexo> or maybe Chris_Booth can?
20:51:25 <Chris_Booth> I can go back to r22727
20:51:37 <Chris_Booth> is it on the openttd website?
20:51:41 <Chris_Booth> or do I have to make it?
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20:52:15 <Yexo> it's here:
20:52:40 <frosch123> i can produce a similar issue on linux with the sdl backend
20:53:28 <frosch123> when i open a popup by right-clcking on the titlebar and closse it my left clicking in the ottd window, the mouse is gone :p
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20:53:56 <frosch123> it actually works with every popup which is closed by clicking somewhere else
20:54:05 <Yexo> I can confirm that
20:54:11 <Chris_Booth> ok r22727 has a mouse
20:54:42 <Chris_Booth> trying 22729 now
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20:55:49 <Chris_Booth> r22729 works
20:56:13 <Yexo> Chris_Booth: it's easier to try something in the midle now, like r22830
20:56:25 <Chris_Booth> ok will try 22830
20:56:47 <Yexo> that way we can quickly narrow down when the problem was introduced
20:56:49 <Rubidium> Yexo: only we're looking between ..727 and ..815
20:57:00 <Yexo> oh, I missed that
20:57:03 <Chris_Booth> lol
20:57:12 <Chris_Booth> erm 790-800
20:57:32 <Yexo> 790 works fine?
20:57:53 <Chris_Booth> 772 is last the 801
20:57:56 <Chris_Booth> trying 772 now
20:58:40 <Chris_Booth> 22772 fine
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20:59:17 <Chris_Booth> so now only 815 and maybe 804
20:59:35 <Yexo> 815 was broken according to V453000
20:59:48 <Chris_Booth> yes 815 is broken
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20:59:57 <Chris_Booth> and 804
21:00:20 <Chris_Booth> so last one without broken mouse is r22772
21:00:28 <Chris_Booth> r22804 has broken mouse
21:00:37 <Chris_Booth> I am not sure about current nightly
21:01:10 <Chris_Booth> chech 22927 now
21:01:56 <Chris_Booth> lol r22927 is fine
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21:06:14 <Chris_Booth> Yexo: does that help?
21:06:47 <Yexo> if current trunk is fine I don't see how we're supposed to fix anything
21:06:56 <Chris_Booth> lol
21:07:01 <Yexo> and we still don't know what caused the bug in earlier versions, so it's likely to come back
21:07:19 <Yexo> so there is nothing more you can do, but it doesn't really help ;)
21:07:26 <Chris_Booth> if it comes back I will tell you
21:08:02 <Chris_Booth> I can tell you the version that have the issue but I would not want to be the person reviewing all those subversions
21:11:59 <Yexo> nothing related changed in the OpenTTD code
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21:16:28 <z-MaTRiX> hii
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21:20:50 <b_jonas> I should use more "full load" orders
21:21:10 <b_jonas> and more shared orders
21:23:49 <b_jonas> apart from passenger and mail transport, when is it better not to use full load?
21:24:00 <b_jonas> in practice that is
21:24:32 <Yexo> I always use full load for non-passenger transport
21:24:38 <Yexo> (and I never transport mail :p)
21:25:39 <b_jonas> okay
21:26:00 <EyeMWing> Mail is such an unloved cargo.
21:26:07 <EyeMWing> I should try to play a postal service game some time.
21:26:10 <planetmaker> except by chopperAI
21:26:27 <z-MaTRiX> what about full load any and using mixed cargo type passengers 8 3 mail ?
21:26:51 <EyeMWing> I should also try out these newfangled AIs. Last time I played with competition was actually honest-to-god DOS TTD.
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21:28:16 <b_jonas> I usually put at least one mail car on large passenger trains, which typically means 2 engines, 1 mail, 9 passenger carrige. Sometimes adding two mail car would be better (mail pays better), but I rarely try to figure it out.
21:28:25 <b_jonas> Also, most passenger airplanes transport mail.
21:33:11 <Elukka> i just put a mail car on my passenger trains
21:35:05 <Elukka> why 2 engines?
21:35:42 <Chris_Booth> Elukka: better power to wieght ratio
21:35:53 <b_jonas> Elukka: an AsiaStar is made of two ends
21:35:58 <Elukka> ah, yes
21:36:15 <b_jonas> just one engine while I'm still using SH-40
21:36:26 <Elukka> to anyone who's played 2cc... are locomotive pulled passenger trains ever worth it?
21:36:38 <Elukka> even a high end multiple unit has less than half the maintenance cost of a locomotive
21:36:59 <Elukka> more like a quarter really
21:37:55 <b_jonas> hmm, no full load could be better for town ratings at the destination station
21:41:56 <planetmaker> good night
21:42:05 <Chris_Booth> gn planetmaker
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21:45:10 <EyeMWing> Well, in real life (at least in the US) MUs tend not to be safety rated to share track with freight.
21:45:41 <EyeMWing> In 2cc? Probably not.
21:47:26 <Chris_Booth> EyeMWing: lots of MU share tracks with Freight in the UK
21:47:38 <Terkhen> good night
21:47:43 <Chris_Booth> actauly all trains on the west coast main lines are either MUs or Freight
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21:48:49 <EyeMWing> We have some funky collision safety requirements that require the leading vehicle of a train to be at least as sturdy as a straight up freight locomotive. Dedicated-line MUs only have to be half as strong.
21:49:46 <Bjarni> are you in the US?
21:49:54 <EyeMWing> Yes.
21:49:59 <Bjarni> thought so
21:50:06 <Bjarni> car drivers there are crazy
21:50:16 <Elukka> here in finland we definitely have freight and MUs share track
21:50:28 <Bjarni> makes sense to build trains sturdy
21:50:44 <Bjarni> one collision every 90 minute on average
21:50:48 <Bjarni> in road crossings
21:50:51 <Elukka> 2cc does have a fair amount of passenger locomotives
21:50:59 <Elukka> it's just they're really, really expensive to run compared to MUs
21:51:45 <Bjarni> which given the population would be the same as a collision every 4th day in Denmark. However it's more like one collision every year
21:51:57 <Bjarni> or even less than that
21:52:01 <Elukka> i do like that MUs are cheaper to run as in most sets they're useless, just i'm not sure they should be that cheap in comparison to locomotives
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21:53:58 <Bjarni> running costs in OpenTTD is horribly unrealistic. If people try to copy some real numbers, then it ends up really unbalanced in the game
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21:54:57 <Bjarni> the system used in SimuTrans seems to be a bit more realistic, though still quite unrealistic and I wouldn't say it's a clear winner gamewise
21:55:03 <EyeMWing> Colorado Railcar did a comparison between their DMU hauling some bilevels and locomotive-hauled bilevels. For the same seat count, the DMU burned a bit over .9 gallons per mile. The locomotive burned 2.3 gallosn per mile. So the running cost difference is there for sure.
21:55:08 <Bjarni> it's not a clear loser either
21:55:24 <Elukka> interesting
21:55:35 <Elukka> bjarni: how does simutrans use it?
21:55:37 <Elukka> err, do it
21:55:57 <Bjarni> fixed price each day + a price for each tile moved
21:56:04 <Bjarni> for both engines and wagons
21:56:26 <Elukka> huh.
21:56:30 <Elukka> i'd love to see that in openttd
21:56:45 <Bjarni> cheap to have a train waiting at a station and expensive to move it around
21:56:54 <EyeMWing> NARS does something like that.
21:57:09 <Elukka> NARS does lower running costs when trains are standing still
21:57:28 <b_jonas> actually more realistic might be if you had to pay for starting and turns and slopes but not much for just going on
21:57:39 <b_jonas> especially if there's a lot of weight
21:58:13 <EyeMWing> In RUST I'm planning on a fixed cost and then a sliding scale based on speed (which will be relevant for speed limits and such)
21:58:16 <Elukka> so have a low base cost, a certain cost for moving a tile, and higher costs per slope tile
21:58:22 <Bjarni> it would be better if it's calculated like this: something fixed + variable*power usage
21:58:45 <b_jonas> but how do you compute the power usage?
21:58:48 <Bjarni> power usage is 0 when braking or standing still, 100% when accelerating and calculated when maintaining speed
21:58:57 <b_jonas> Elukka: no, also for starting
21:58:57 <EyeMWing> we can already detect braking
21:59:09 <EyeMWing> accelerating is more of a challenge.
21:59:16 <Bjarni> starting is accelerating
21:59:21 <Elukka> okay starting too
21:59:35 <b_jonas> you could pay for braking instead of for accelerating, that's almost the same, isn't it?
21:59:48 <Bjarni> b_jonas: no
22:00:08 <Bjarni> accelerating costs diesel. Braking makes the engine(s) run idle
22:00:24 <EyeMWing> With a patch or two bumping running costs while running uphill would be doable.
22:00:30 <Bjarni> and the driver releases air, which makes the brakeshoes push against the wheels
22:00:47 <Elukka> how would a 'realistic running costs' patch like this jive with existing grfs?
22:01:11 <Bjarni> replacing brakeshoes is an expense, but I say it's so little that it's not worth to include in the game
22:01:21 <Bjarni> not worth the CPU time
22:01:33 <EyeMWing> If done right, it wouldn't change anything. Just expose more for the GRF author to use.
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22:02:59 <b_jonas> Bjarni: sure, but you brake the same amount as you accelerate (if you account with slopes correctly), so if it's technically simpler for the game, it could measure braking instead of accelerating
22:03:28 <Bjarni> <b_jonas> but how do you compute the power usage? <--- when maintaining speed, say the train has 2k hp, but it only needs 1200 to maintain it's current speed, then power usage would be 60%
22:03:56 <Bjarni> I know diesel engines doesn't burn diesel linear like that, but.... why make to too complex? :)
22:05:16 <Bjarni> I don't think it would be more complex to measure accelerating. If not top speed and not stopping and not stopped => accelerating
22:05:35 <Bjarni> could be even simpler
22:05:36 <Elukka> i think it'd be better if it could interface with existing grfs, but i don't know how possible that is
22:05:52 <Bjarni> haven't looked at the specific code
22:06:02 <Bjarni> well I have, but not while thinking about this
22:06:24 <b_jonas> or just add another field for speed
22:06:30 <Bjarni> it's a good question to to make this in a backward compatible way
22:06:35 <b_jonas> for previous speed that is
22:06:56 <Elukka> much like the realistic acceleration option works with old trains... it'd be nice for realistic running costs to work too
22:07:00 <Bjarni> the game is fully aware when a train is accelerating
22:07:03 <b_jonas> Bjarni: it could be an option that only works if the train GRF allows it
22:07:16 <Bjarni> also an option
22:08:29 <Bjarni> this would make the game harder. If the train goes to max speed and is able to just maintain it, then running costs will be minimal
22:08:57 <Bjarni> each time they stop at a signal, they have to pay extra to gain speed afterwards because the engine has to work harder
22:09:25 <Elukka> hmm...
22:09:34 <Bjarni> which means signals not only slow down transport time and hence income but also increases costs
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22:09:53 <Elukka> in reality, it'd slow down so that it doesn't have to stop, but openttd trains aren't clever enough to do that
22:10:02 <Elukka> it could be an argument to not have starts increase running costs
22:10:03 <Bjarni> at least not yet
22:10:45 <Wolf01> 'night
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22:11:43 <b_jonas> it definitely should be an option in advanced settings
22:11:44 <Bjarni> I saw some guy posting on the forum that he wanted fast trains to slow down when behind a slow train like ATC does it...
22:11:48 <b_jonas> not a default
22:11:55 <b_jonas> ATC?
22:11:57 <Bjarni> we all want that but.... ATC has nothing to do with that :p
22:12:06 <Bjarni> Automatic Train Control
22:12:37 <Bjarni> it's a system which tells the train computer if the signal is green or red and pulls the emergency brake if the driver skips a red signal
22:13:04 <Bjarni> s/sjips/misses
22:13:40 <Bjarni> sure the the advanced version can theoretically be used to slow down to match speed, but that slowdown also works without ATC
22:13:41 <b_jonas> I see
22:14:03 <Bjarni> like "this signal is green and the next is green" = 120 km/h
22:14:18 <Bjarni> "this signal is green and the next is red" = 60-70 km/h
22:14:50 <Bjarni> that's how it worked before ATC was installed
22:15:41 <Bjarni> and ATC is only updated near signals, which means it really can't provide improvements when it comes to this
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22:16:30 <Bjarni> in fact it makes it worse because it can know the next signal to be red and not realize it changed to green until it's close, which gives an unneeded slowdown. The driver can see the green signal though.
22:17:40 <Bjarni> There is a signal in Malmö where trains risks having to slow down to 10 km/h for a green signal xD
22:18:08 <Bjarni> it's when approaching the platform so it's not that big a deal though
22:20:08 * Bjarni wonders how to make OpenTTD clever enough to make one train match the speed of the train in front of it
22:20:57 <Bjarni> it's actually somewhat complex to code
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22:21:58 <Bjarni> like say the next signal is red and the train on the other side is slow. If it always matches the speed, then it would be bad in some cases
22:22:11 <EyeMWing> Yeah
22:22:23 <Bjarni> like if there are 20 tiles to the signal and the other slow train is gone when the train has travelled 10 tiles at full speed
22:22:34 <Bjarni> in that case it shouldn't slow down
22:22:43 <EyeMWing> In reality, though, the train is averaging the same speed as the one in front anyway
22:23:53 <Bjarni> I guess it should be something like "match train speed in front if next block has no junctions"
22:24:20 <Bjarni> though that could result in unintended behavior as well
22:24:31 <Bjarni> maybe a new signal type...
22:25:16 <b_jonas> about new signal types, what I'd like is a kind of debugging signal or waypoint whose effect is that if a train passes is then you get a news message
22:25:18 <Bjarni> "if heading for red signal (of new type), match speed of train in next block"
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22:26:05 <Bjarni> b_jonas: when would you use such a signal?
22:26:23 <Bjarni> and I think a waypoint would be better
22:27:05 <b_jonas> probably a waypoint, yes
22:27:21 <b_jonas> on train tracks that I put there so a train can reverse if it's lost, but should not usually go there
22:27:51 <b_jonas> so eg. it could notify me if the train has chosen depots wrong and has to go back
22:28:20 <Bjarni> ahh
22:28:32 <Bjarni> makes sense
22:28:55 <Bjarni> I always adds depots to orders to avoid such issues
22:29:08 <b_jonas> it's not only depots
22:29:15 <b_jonas> it can be other problems with my rail design
22:29:31 <Bjarni> like wait to load train, then service (or forced if it's unreliable)
22:30:04 <Elukka>
22:30:17 <Elukka> i'm browsing brawa's site for sprite drawing reference and goddamn their models are amazing
22:30:56 <Bjarni> how does the couplers work?
22:31:09 <Bjarni> doesn't look like normal model couplers to me
22:31:09 <Elukka>
22:31:35 <Elukka> i think they come with both model couplers (just cosmetic) and actual functional couplers
22:31:58 <Elukka> that set costs... 600 euros O_o
22:32:14 <Elukka> that's like double the price of märklin stuff
22:32:18 <Bjarni> OpenTTD money or real money? :p
22:32:46 <Elukka> real money!
22:33:15 * Bjarni went to a Märklin store and was offered switches for 350 kr
22:33:24 <Bjarni> normal price is 400
22:33:36 <Elukka> did they come with a motor and digital decoder
22:33:44 <Bjarni> that was some expensive used ones without original packages
22:33:48 <Bjarni> yeah
22:33:52 <Elukka> that's... still expensive
22:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: afair the couplers are extension pieces which you can add, but then you can't run it anymore
22:33:56 <Bjarni> but I don't know if they worked
22:34:39 <b_jonas> oh, so this is why these trains kept getting lost. I was missing some rail pieces so they can leave the depot so they had to go back to the station to reverse
22:34:51 <Bjarni> hehe
22:35:18 <Elukka> since the models have NEM pockets i assume you can just switch to and from the functional and cosmetic coupler
22:35:29 <Elukka> though... actually not sure
22:35:37 <Bjarni> looking at the picture it looks like the last guy doing the decoupling was lazy
22:35:40 <Elukka> the cosmetic coupler might not actually attach to the pocket
22:35:48 <Bjarni> the chain is in the main hook
22:36:02 <Bjarni> it should be in a smaller hook below
22:36:43 <Bjarni> now if both cars are like that, one chain has to be moved down before the hook is ready for the chain from the other car
22:36:57 <Bjarni> lazy German switching workers :p
22:37:20 <Elukka> i'd love to get some brawa models (once i can find the money to finish my layout...) but i'm not even sure how well they'd run on märklin tracks
22:38:24 <Elukka> ah, they sell replacement wheelsets
22:39:04 <Elukka>
22:39:07 <Elukka> gratuitous model picture :P
22:40:26 <Bjarni> <-- that one looks nice too
22:40:30 <b_jonas> what would you use a cosmetic coupler for? put it to the last carriage of the train?
22:40:38 <Bjarni> yes
22:40:40 <Bjarni> I think so
22:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> put it into a glass view
22:41:48 <Bjarni> that too
22:41:56 <Elukka> i know people have made working couplers that look damn near like the real thing, it's just they won't couple/decouple automatically
22:41:59 <glx> wow it looks real
22:42:12 <Bjarni> makes me think of Toy Story 2.... the toy wants to be played with, not put on display in a glass box
22:42:32 <Elukka> and since they're set between the buffers, curve radius has to be wide enough
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22:43:24 <Bjarni> curved tracks has always been an issue for hook and buffer couplers in real life
22:43:41 <b_jonas> no automatic coupling and a large curve radius still sounds like a real thing to me
22:43:46 <Bjarni> which is part of the reason (main reason?) Japan switched to the US system
22:44:00 <Elukka> yes but it's nice to be able to fit your layout in a room :P
22:44:08 <glx> no curves ?
22:44:15 <Bjarni> narrowgauge tracks and really bad curves makes buffers skip each other and cause deadlocks
22:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the main reason why europe didn't switch coupling systems yet is that they couldn't agree on anything...
22:44:36 <Bjarni> as usual...
22:44:59 <b_jonas> it's also because they don't want to spend any money on even maintaining property
22:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but german DMU and EMU types already have different couplings
22:45:06 <Elukka> in model rail, these days most models come with a close coupler mechanism
22:45:07 <b_jonas> buying new stuff is completely out
22:45:12 <Bjarni> though not switching gives the benefit that even 19th century locomotives can pull modern wagons
22:45:17 <Bjarni> or vice versa
22:45:19 <Elukka> it keeps the cars nice and snug on straight track and slight curves, but brings them further away as needed
22:45:24 <Elukka> to avoid buffer lock
22:45:34 <Elukka>
22:45:40 <EyeMWing> Meanwhile, in America, even out HSTs have standard automatic couplers stashed under covers at the nose.
22:46:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: german railways have "adapters" to allow regular engines pull e.g. an ICE train
22:46:18 <Elukka> in finland we have locomotives with both buffer & chain and automatic couplers
22:46:25 <Elukka> russian automatic couplers, similar to the american ones i understand
22:46:43 <EyeMWing> Yeah, the Russians are the same, just pointier and incompatible
22:47:08 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: I think that goes for all of Europe. They are just not around when an engine needs to pull a broken EMU away
22:47:13 <Elukka>
22:47:17 <Elukka> there's a knucle and there's a chain...
22:47:21 <Bjarni> which causes slowdowns in recovery when something like that happens
22:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: afair the russian couplers are improved american couplers
22:48:34 <Elukka> american trains seem so much easier model-rail wise :D
22:48:43 <Elukka> no buffers to lock... comparatively huge couplers on the real thing too
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22:50:35 <Bjarni> <--- wtf... built 2011
22:50:47 <Bjarni> I took two pictures of such an engine
22:50:52 <Bjarni> a real life one
22:50:55 <Elukka> i do like the märklin close couplers though, they couple automatically with little force and are easy to manually decouple from underneath with a bent piece of wire
22:50:58 <Bjarni> looked sort of new though
22:51:10 <Bjarni> not dirty at all or anything
22:51:36 <Elukka> that's a good looking locomotive
22:52:55 <Elukka>
22:53:01 <Elukka> i rather like the looks of this one too
22:53:33 <Elukka>
22:53:35 <Elukka> what a weird picture
22:53:42 <Elukka> american and european locomotives coupled together... in iran
22:53:59 <Bjarni> but I was just walking next to a railroad and it happened to pass by chance... kind of lucky to bring my camera when something like that showed up out of nowhere
22:54:07 <Bjarni> unpowered railroad line btw
22:54:23 <Bjarni> so the one you wanted to show would sure be a real sight there :p
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22:55:05 <Elukka> speaking of american locomotives, there seem to be a fair bit exported to china too
22:55:13 <Elukka> it's not just china exporting stuff to the US
22:55:40 <Elukka> i recall people writing about huge consists of brand new diesels bound for china
22:56:06 <EyeMWing> Yeah.
22:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause> some east german engines and wagons were actually prepared to be refitted to russian-style couplings
22:56:32 <EyeMWing> That's the primary business for EMD and GE these days.
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22:56:39 <Elukka> and while i'm rambling, there's still a rail line in china that uses steam locomotives
22:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> in preparation for a possible switch in the eastern block, i presume
22:57:06 <EyeMWing> China needs motive power to get all our consumer crap onto ships, after all
22:57:28 <Elukka> it might be primarily to attract tourists and such, but they're still using steam locomotives for practical purposes
22:57:40 <Elukka> it was a coal line i think, with some passenger service
22:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> EyeMWing: those "consumer crap" things are usually produced near the coast. the steam-operated lines are usually way in the back country, e.g. for coal transports
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22:58:41 <Elukka> i don't think there's more than that one steam line left these days
23:03:48 <Bjarni> <Elukka> and while i'm rambling, there's still a rail line in china that uses steam locomotives <-- yeah.... except they actually retired their steam locomotives in 2008
23:03:55 <Bjarni> or was it 2006... not sure
23:03:55 <Elukka> aww
23:03:59 <Elukka> didn't know that
23:04:11 <Bjarni> I think it was 2008
23:04:23 <Bjarni> stupid move to retire those
23:04:43 <Bjarni> they ran in an area with coal mines and they designed to burn discarded coal dust
23:04:52 <Bjarni> or coal rubbles
23:04:59 <Bjarni> cheap fuel
23:05:09 <Bjarni> though it meant the fireman should fire all the time
23:05:22 <Bjarni> as a result they had two firemen and they switched every 10th minute
23:05:50 <Elukka> well, it isn't exactly cheap to maintain steam, nor very environmental... though i'd keep a couple locomotives going for historical purposes
23:05:55 <Bjarni> so tiny coals burns virtually instantly in such a heat
23:06:29 <Bjarni> cheap to maintain.... are you talking about what to pay Chinese workers to do the job in a low paid area?
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23:06:49 <Bjarni> I said it was near the coal mines, were work is the railroad or the coal mines
23:07:07 <Elukka> well, they didn't retire them for no reason and i have my doubts they did it for the environment
23:07:40 <Bjarni> environmental... that would be a first if China cares about pollution, which aren't killing people though drinking water or similar
23:07:49 <EyeMWing> Probably maintenance cost.
23:07:56 <Elukka> that's what i'm guessng
23:08:10 <Bjarni> maybe they were worn out and needed new boiler pipes and stuff
23:08:24 <Elukka> well, china is having to think a bit about the environment because the pollution is resulting in very real economic losses
23:08:55 <Bjarni> yeah, but they don't care about coal smoke
23:09:14 <Bjarni> they care about toxic rivers because rivers are also drinking water
23:09:34 <Bjarni> sick workers are political dangerous as well as unable to work well
23:09:55 <Elukka> true
23:11:32 <EyeMWing> dbg: [misc] Drawing string using newlines with DrawString instead of DrawStringM
23:11:32 <EyeMWing> ultiLine. Please notify the developers of this: []
23:12:11 <EyeMWing> (While filtering in the NewGRF window)
23:13:41 <Bjarni> make a bug report or it risk being forgotten
23:14:31 <EyeMWing> Yeah, soon as I've cleared my mental decks. Reworking the refit window atm...
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23:21:16 <Bjarni> odd. The diesel loco I took a picture off says nothing but Voith, which is the factory
23:21:24 <Bjarni> no names of railroad companies
23:26:38 <EyeMWing> Short-term lease or demo unit.
23:27:36 <Bjarni> looks like it
23:28:27 <Bjarni> google search on the engine type reveals all of them have names on the front or are even completely repainted
23:28:44 <Bjarni> except the ones standing on the factory
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23:34:10 <Elukka> Eddi|ZuHause: any idea what "Wd fit car brn" stands for in the color templates?
23:34:16 <Elukka> it's the "wd fit" part i don't get
23:37:42 <EyeMWing> ... Wait, did that just work?
23:37:53 <EyeMWing> It wasn't supposed to work yet, it was supposed to crash spectacularly.
23:44:23 <Bjarni> crash test failed :p
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23:51:34 <EyeMWing> Hrm
23:51:37 <EyeMWing> This edge case sucks.
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