IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-11
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00:16:52 <Eddi|zuHause> na, one pixel off the roof
00:17:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the line along the front of the wagon
00:18:27 <Elukka> at which angle ddo i need to start taking a horizontal line off instead of a vertical one
00:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the \ view should remove both
00:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and the others probably one
00:20:47 <Elukka> hmm so then the diagonal should be one more pixel shorter...
00:21:10 <Elukka> but then it won't be exactly half the length of the side view anymore
00:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause> we may need to do furter adjustments once we get this into the game
00:22:58 <Elukka> it'd be nice to see how it'd look in game
00:23:22 <Elukka> i wish ttdviewer allowed you to assemble consists :P
00:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few things left to code, before we can look at it ingame, and i'm not sure whether i can get to that the next week(s)
00:35:31 <Elukka> well, i'll keep drawing some sprites and hope they won't be too broken
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05:09:54 <EyeMWing> Was trying to test a patch. Was about to complain that it doesn't work when I realized I'm trying it in my vanilla version.
05:10:18 <pjpe> are you going to put the station sprites in your us set revamped?
05:11:39 <EyeMWing> Not in the main set, but once I've ticked off a few goals, I don't see why not.
05:12:04 <pjpe> the guy had some really nice stations drawn up
05:12:08 <pjpe> but they weren't in game
05:14:13 <pjpe> only toronto union seems to be in the current set
05:15:27 <EyeMWing> I think I've seen the bare platforms somewhere, too.
05:16:54 <Elukka> the steel mill platforms and grain depot are in game
05:18:01 <EyeMWing> Well, at least the steel mill
05:18:45 <EyeMWing> This works even less well in the patched copy than in trunk.
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05:24:13 <pjpe> now who wouldn't like to have the justice league hq station in their games
05:25:40 <EyeMWing> Some decent stations might convince me to actually service passengers.
05:29:00 <EyeMWing> There's a whole bunch of tiny little 1 or 2-piece station sets that in the ottdc grf pack. Licenses permitting, rolling some of those up, plus the big city stations that were never implemented would be a pretty good start.
05:31:36 <pjpe> there are only really 3 decent station tiles for large cities
05:31:49 <pjpe> the 2 station halls in i think the industrial station renewal
05:31:53 <pjpe> and union station in the us set
05:31:59 <pjpe> everything else is too small scale
05:47:01 <EyeMWing> Okay, I just have to ask. What on earth are the extra angles for?
05:47:41 <Elukka> some sort of magic that makes them turn smoother in corners
05:48:02 <Elukka> vital for the longer wagons (like twice as long as this one, presumably also magic) so they don't look bad
05:48:18 <Elukka> i don't code, i just draw on top of templates :P
05:49:33 <EyeMWing> I think I know what the first bit of magic is, but... Wagons longer than 8/8?
05:49:56 <Elukka> it was described as "hacky"
05:50:04 <Elukka> no i believe they're simply longer wagons
05:50:21 <pjpe> is that smooth turning magic in the codebase yet
05:50:28 <pjpe> i looked through it but couldn't really make heads of it
05:51:23 <EyeMWing> Got a link to the patch? The US set has some locomotives that are currently chopped up into like, 6 articulated pieces
05:52:28 <Elukka> pjpe, seems to be in trunk
05:53:04 <Elukka> eyemwing i was actually trying to find it too :P
05:54:48 <Elukka> i swear someone linked it...
05:58:14 <Elukka> Eddi|ZuHause would know more
06:00:26 <Elukka> yeah looking into it i haven't the faintest idea how CETS plans to manage the longer vehicles
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06:22:33 <Elukka> hey, people were curious about how CETS manages longer rail vehicles
06:22:35 <Elukka> do you happen to know?
06:23:23 <planetmaker> yes. I suggest to look at the source for the exact 'how'
06:23:30 <planetmaker> it uses rail curvature info
06:24:00 <Elukka> oh, it does use articulation
06:24:08 <Elukka> does that make longer carriages bend in corners?
06:24:21 <planetmaker> no, they're one piece
06:24:28 <Elukka> okay that's the magic part
06:25:33 <planetmaker> basically a wagon consists of three parts. Only the middle part has (visible) graphics
06:26:06 <planetmaker> But it cannot be recommended to use that really
06:26:22 <planetmaker> The game engine is not ready for this and it'll glitch
06:26:57 <Elukka> how does that manifest in game?
06:27:31 <EyeMWing> I had a feeling that's what was going on.
06:28:07 <EyeMWing> I guess I'll just keep ye olde bendy locomotives for now.
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06:40:52 <planetmaker> salut andythenorth
06:41:38 <EyeMWing> wtf? "Repository is unrelated"?
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06:44:03 <planetmaker> did you clone from that repo (i.e. is it one of the defaults, like pull or push)?
06:47:40 <EyeMWing> ... Oops. This is the wrong repository altogether.
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07:26:20 <EyeMWing> planetmaker: Any recommendations for a reasonable Python dev environment?
07:26:39 <andythenorth> EyeMWing: text editor?
07:27:31 <EyeMWing> Chasing references in text editors sucks. I'm a pampered Microsoftie by day.
07:27:54 <pjpe> that visual studio python plugin?
07:28:31 <andythenorth> I have only used eclipse as a python IDE, and that sucks for various reasons
07:29:16 <pjpe> netbeans is a good die for java
07:29:17 <pjpe> eclipse always seemed shoddy
07:29:43 <EyeMWing> Eclipse is spectacular in finding every possible way to be wrong.
07:30:17 <EyeMWing> Good call on the Visual Studio plugin, I've actually used that before and forgot about it.
07:30:37 <pjpe> or you can be an idiot and use wing
07:30:46 <pjpe> or whatever that python ide is
07:31:01 <andythenorth> EyeMWing: RUST looks promising :)
07:31:44 <EyeMWing> Promising and ambitious.
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07:54:27 <planetmaker> or nedit. or kate
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08:07:42 <andythenorth> text wrangler :P
08:08:01 <andythenorth> the place suddenly seems to be full of OS X users
08:19:01 <Rubidium> pjpe: unless you want to develop an application to run on more than 2 versions of that OS
08:20:10 <pjpe> things usually work on the current and previous version
08:20:16 <pjpe> which i don't find that bad
08:22:35 <Rubidium> well, OpenTTD always fails many months (if not years) after Apple makes a release
08:22:50 <pjpe> can't speak for previous versions
08:23:08 <pjpe> but for the latest os update is was because openttd was using two functions for fullscreen that were deprecated for years
08:23:14 <pjpe> and only removed in lion
08:23:59 <EyeMWing> Removing deprecated features from an OS more often than once a hardware generation is reckless.
08:24:49 <Rubidium> pjpe: Microsoft removed directmusic in 2007 from their development kits, yet it still works
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08:26:09 <Rubidium> nah, great for forward compatability
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08:26:19 <Rubidium> but then... Apple made an ever bigger mess in the past
08:26:44 <Alberth> Apple clearly does not care for anybody but themselves
08:26:47 <Rubidium> saying a particular feature was supported (via one API call), but not actually supporting it (when actually using it)
08:27:18 <EyeMWing> Microsoft never removes anything ever because users will always say "This new operating system broke my program! Stupid buggy Microsoft." not "My program does something it was supposed to stop doing 15 years ago! Stupid buggy program."
08:28:08 <EyeMWing> Apple, of course, is immune to ever having anyone question their perceived quality and doesn't have to worry about that problem, and can break things more or less at will.
08:29:06 <EyeMWing> Plus they don't have to worry about the ramifications of some ramshackle pile of junk "enterprise software" failing and costing one of their customers a trillion dollars.
08:29:08 <andythenorth> whether that will continue post-Steve is another question
08:29:16 <Rubidium> now I'm certainly not saying that Microsoft or Linux or BSD is a saint with respect to backward compatability, but it's perceivably doing a much better job at it
08:29:21 <andythenorth> it's not so much Apple as Steve :P
08:29:34 <andythenorth> Steve doesn't care about backwards compatibility. It's not on his agenda
08:30:08 <Alberth> Can we please stop discussing these stupid 'coins in the train list' ? I am getting sick and tired of it
08:30:31 <EyeMWing> I guarantee somewhere in the financial industry exists a program that uses DirectMusic to play an alarm when the stock market crashes or something.
08:31:32 <Rubidium> Alberth: okay, lets discuss coins in the road vehicle list then ;)
08:32:20 <Rubidium> I think we should use a golden coin for lots of money, a silver one for small bits and a chocolate one for loss (looks like shit)
08:32:36 <planetmaker> 'coins in the train'? Oh, that thread? :-)
08:32:55 <andythenorth> why don't we discuss groups instead?
08:32:59 <andythenorth> that always goes well
08:33:21 <frosch123> still better than discussion one-tile locks :p
08:33:35 <Rubidium> no! half tile locks!
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08:36:15 <EyeMWing> Diagonal stations! (No, really. Bendy station platforms would be awesome)
08:38:03 <pjpe> diagonal bridges and diagonal roads is the weirdest idea
08:38:11 <pjpe> i can't picture it doing anything but taking up lots of space and looking weird
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08:42:39 <EyeMWing> Roads could be okay. Decidedly "strange looking" in TTD, but given the right artistic treatment they'd look alright and be far more useful in getting vehicles around efficiently.
08:42:43 <frosch123> yeah, bendy stations! i want the platform at the top upside-down spot of a loop-the-loop
08:43:22 <pjpe> openrollertransportcoastertycoon
08:44:00 <frosch123> how many tons of coal can you transport on a roller-coaster-track?
08:48:57 <Elukka> diagonal track slopes!
08:52:45 <andythenorth> 3 tile locks are stupid stupid
08:52:55 <andythenorth> and it's stupid to be able to overbuild river, but not rapids
08:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you're supposed to build the lock next to the rapids ;)
08:54:53 <EyeMWing> If you built the lock over the rapids, you'd essentially be damming the river
08:55:40 <andythenorth> sounds a bit detailed to me
08:55:49 <EyeMWing> When did rivers go into the map generator anyway? I just saw it for the first time today, but it had been awhile since I grabbed a nightly
08:56:08 <andythenorth> we have huge detailed locks that are supposed to go alongside rapids
08:56:12 <andythenorth> but 1 tile depots
08:56:16 <andythenorth> seems like wrong thinking
08:56:21 <Hyronymus> somewehre last week EyeMWing
08:56:38 <Elukka> has anyone thought up a satisfactory method of removing/readding/something rivers?
08:56:41 * Hyronymus agrees with andythenorth
08:56:45 <Elukka> a bit silly that you can just remove a river and it's gone forever
08:56:52 <EyeMWing> 1 tile depots need to die.
08:57:20 <Hyronymus> can't river tiles be like radio transmitters: unremoveable from the map
08:57:29 <Elukka> mainly it bothers me because i'll accidentally remove a piece of river and it's gone
08:57:47 <Elukka> wider, longer major rivers would be a really cool thing too
08:57:57 <b_jonas> I'd like diagonal rail bridges
08:58:03 <b_jonas> and diagonal rail tunnels
08:58:30 <b_jonas> but it's dangerous to go down that route
08:59:56 <b_jonas> because after that I'll want curved bridges and bridges with crossings and multiple lanes and tunnels with the same and eventually we're at the point where Locomotion is where you can build more freely in the air or underground then on the ground
09:00:19 <andythenorth> 1 tile depots are fine
09:00:45 <Alberth> b_jonas: and that is bad how, exactly?
09:01:16 <b_jonas> it kind of ruins the game if you can build in 3d over and under cities and other rails
09:01:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: they are entrances to underground tunnels :p
09:01:28 <b_jonas> you never have to plan anything because you always have place for your new track
09:01:44 <b_jonas> you just put it deeper or higher everything else
09:01:58 <b_jonas> really, just play with that game
09:02:08 <b_jonas> it gets boring much more quickly than ttd
09:02:20 <b_jonas> because of the too much freedom
09:02:41 <Alberth> we'll add an advanced settings flag :)
09:04:20 <EyeMWing> Advanced Settings: The window where you choose whether you want to play Transport Tycoon Deluxe or... Whatever.
09:05:15 <EyeMWing> 1 tile depots really hub the realism center in my brain the wrong way. MLSS was the greatest thing to happen to me in ages. My railyards tend to be bigger than most cities for some reason...
09:06:44 <b_jonas> by the way, is there a good design for transporting lots of steel on a very short route (about 25 squares currently, depending on the placement of stations)? I'm currently using six trains each on individual tracks, but it's hard to place the depots for them
09:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want 1-tile-locks, you might just as well make the rapids traversable in the first place...
09:07:22 <planetmaker> b_jonas: that's an RV task
09:08:17 <b_jonas> um, I don't think I want to load a vehicles newgrf to this game. that would be kind of cheating.
09:08:22 <b_jonas> maybe for the next game.
09:08:29 <andythenorth> 1 tile would be stupid
09:09:16 <Alberth> just draw a tilted ship :)
09:09:50 <EyeMWing> Next suggestion would be to build a loop.
09:09:52 <planetmaker> hm, have ships also break-downs?
09:10:20 <planetmaker> :-) Could have nice graphics with water gushing in ;-)
09:10:34 <b_jonas> EyeMWing: my problem with the loop is, that would make the length of the rail much longer, so the trains would have to travel much
09:10:48 <andythenorth> b_jonas the flow would be better
09:10:51 <Alberth> planetmaker: would be progress compared with the current black smoke :)
09:11:04 <b_jonas> andythenorth: it wouldn't, because currently the six trains are each on separate tracks
09:11:10 <andythenorth> so flow is not an issue
09:11:12 <EyeMWing> Yeah, but you could pack the same number of trains onto half (or less) the tracks.
09:11:15 <b_jonas> so it could be better only if I had more than six trains
09:11:17 <planetmaker> I'm not sure that would be changed, Alberth. but one could still vary the vehicle
09:11:37 <andythenorth> b_jonas: can you build a second level of tracks using bridges on the same ground footprint
09:11:56 <Yexo> b_jonas: why each train on an individual track?
09:11:59 <Alberth> b_jonas: such waste of tracks and space
09:12:08 <Yexo> given 4 tracks you should easily be able to accomodate 10 trains or something like that
09:12:22 <andythenorth> b_jonas: build a canal
09:12:34 <andythenorth> ships have ~infinite capacity per water tile
09:12:44 <b_jonas> it's short, like 25 squares. making them loop would make the distance like one and a half times as long because the trains would also need to turn
09:12:56 <Elukka> i know white proof would likely be more accurate, but... i think the brown looks way better
09:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i'm also gone now
09:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: looks ok, but the second view from the left loosk a little too short
09:14:10 <Elukka> yeah i might have done something wonky i was half asleep
09:14:25 <Elukka> figured i'd look at it again tomorrow before posting it on the devzone
09:14:39 <Yexo> b_jonas: who said anything about looping?
09:15:15 <b_jonas> should I upload a screenshot?
09:16:52 <Elukka> actually yup one of the views is missing a few pixels
09:19:54 <b_jonas> I guess I'll also have to check out the transport from the four mines and make them all consistently transport 80%+ of the ore
09:23:15 <Elukka> ooh a picture of a grey 3 axle coach
09:28:26 <andythenorth> b_jonas: bigger trains
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09:29:59 <b_jonas> andythenorth: hmm, that might work
09:30:05 <b_jonas> especially if I upgrade to monorail
09:30:17 <b_jonas> how many carriages could they pull?
09:30:44 <b_jonas> I only have the X1 currently
09:32:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22918 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h newgrf_canal.h): -Fix: [NewGRF] Properties for feature 0x05 were not zeroed for each NewGRF, thus waterfeatures could glitch when the properties were set by a previous NewGRF and the NewGRF assumed the properties to be unmodified
09:33:07 <b_jonas> I should also improve the transport from the mines a bit
09:34:38 <EyeMWing> Well, it just took me 20 minutes to find a horsepower rating on a DMU when it's right on the wikipedia page. That sort of thing usually means it's time for bed.
09:35:29 <Rubidium> bed? You mean brunch... but ofcourse that should be enjoyed in bed, shouldn't it? :)
09:36:55 <Yexo> b_jonas: I say with my previous comment: you can have at least double the amount of trains on those tracks
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09:37:49 <b_jonas> Yexo: with what layout?
09:38:03 <b_jonas> how could they not get stuck if they're confined in such a small place?
09:38:11 <b_jonas> I mean, I could probably add two more tracks
09:38:28 <EyeMWing> Brunch at 5:30AM sounds interesting. I should try it some time.
09:38:30 <b_jonas> there's enough space on the NW
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09:53:40 <b_jonas> Yexo: I don't think that could run twice as many trains without getting stuck
09:53:50 <b_jonas> but it could indeed be better than what I have now
09:53:59 <Yexo> 4 trains for every 2 tracks is easy
09:54:09 <Yexo> I'd say you might be able to get 5 or 6 trains on those
09:54:25 <Yexo> of course it wouldn't run as fluently anymore, but it will never get stuck due to the proper signaling
09:55:29 <b_jonas> also, wouldn't that need signals at the exit of the station tracks, before the crossing?
09:55:43 <Alberth> b_jonas: 4 trains at 2 tracks: 1 loading, 1 unloading, one from A -> B, one from B -> A
09:56:07 <Yexo> Alberth: in the example above there are 2 platforms on each side
09:56:18 <Yexo> so there can be 2 loading, 2 unloading, 1 A->B, 1 B->A
09:56:30 <Yexo> b_jonas: no, you don't need those
09:56:35 <Yexo> try it out, the layout I posted works
09:57:03 <Alberth> Yexo: way too many platforms if you ask me :)
09:57:08 <planetmaker> it wouldn't work on a roro station, though, Yexo
09:57:34 <Yexo> planetmaker: right, but this isn't one ;)
09:57:41 <Yexo> Alberth: agreed, but I didn't want to change his station layout too :)
09:57:51 <Yexo> and it allows for more trains this way
09:58:24 <b_jonas> how does that work? if there are no exit lights, how can trains park on both platforms?
09:58:29 <b_jonas> how do they know not to exit at the same time?
09:58:47 <Alberth> b_jonas: path signals reserve a whole track
09:58:53 <Yexo> they're in a pbs-signal block, so they'll only leave when they've reserved a route to a signal
09:58:56 <planetmaker> they'll figure it out. That's what path signals are for
09:59:13 <planetmaker> hm... though... turning. Sure, Yexo?
09:59:21 <b_jonas> but then wouldn't have to reserve the way out when they enter?
09:59:37 <Yexo> no, they "end of line" is also a valid end-point for a reservation
09:59:58 <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, I've used this in some games
10:00:11 <Alberth> Yexo: I find those double platforms more a pain in the ass, as the incoming and outgoing trains tend to get in each others way
10:00:43 <Yexo> that's true and the reason I prefer roro stations for stations that are busier, but this works fine for not-too-busy stations
10:00:45 <Alberth> b_jonas: they reserve an outgoing path after finishing loading/unloading
10:00:49 <planetmaker> Alberth: hardly. with path signals you have not really a measurable impact
10:01:01 <b_jonas> so they can reserve a path even if there's no lights?
10:01:41 <b_jonas> ah, I guess it's reversing that does that
10:01:48 <b_jonas> they have to reserve a path when they reverse
10:01:55 <b_jonas> even if they do that automatically
10:02:17 <b_jonas> in that case this layout may fit here
10:02:51 <Alberth> planetmaker: in my experience, the 2nd train always just claimed a path to the 2nd platform just before the 1st train finishes unloading
10:03:56 <Yexo> Alberth: that depends on unloading speed, train length, etc.
10:04:25 <planetmaker> and traffic density
10:04:48 <planetmaker> and the general station setup ;-)
10:05:03 <Alberth> it should, but perhaps there is self-regulating mechanism in there that causes it
10:05:30 * Alberth suspects the breakdowns
10:06:20 <b_jonas> it would be nice if somehow when both platforms are empty the incoming train took the farther platform
10:06:47 <Yexo> place a reversed path signal before the first platform but not for the second
10:07:06 <Yexo> to create an artificial malus for that platform and not for the other
10:07:29 <b_jonas> I should try that next time I build large terminuses
10:07:37 <Yexo> other options are: slightly longer platform, make that tile a road crossing
10:07:54 <b_jonas> how does road crossing help?
10:08:11 <Yexo> the rail pathfinder prefers routes without road crossings
10:08:29 <b_jonas> wtf... my trains try to avoid competitor's road vehicles? that's stupid
10:08:35 * b_jonas looks for yapf settings to turn it off
10:09:28 <Yexo> in the console type: set yapf.rail_crossing_penalty 0
10:09:54 <b_jonas> I guess that might be it, yes
10:09:55 <planetmaker> I'd not advise it though
10:10:10 <planetmaker> I'd strongly advise to NOT modify the pathfinder settings
10:10:23 <b_jonas> yes, I would not like to modify it either if I can avoid it
10:10:33 <b_jonas> but I still don't understand the penalty for road crossing
10:10:40 <b_jonas> they don't have a speed limit for railway, does it?
10:10:49 <planetmaker> as you'll complain then in 10 days about strange vehicle behaviour - just because you basically use totally useless PF penalties instead of the well-tuned default ones
10:10:57 <Yexo> no, but the vehicles on there might as well be yours as your competitors
10:11:08 <Yexo> and you wouldn't want to crash your own road vehicles, would you?
10:11:30 <Yexo> also: crashing a road vehicle IIRC drops the station rating in nearby stations
10:11:46 <planetmaker> hm, what would make sense :-)
10:11:46 <b_jonas> this game doesn't even have competitors, nor road vehicles currently
10:11:59 <Yexo> so no reason to change that setting at all
10:12:18 <b_jonas> most of the road crossings are where I cross town roads I've built to nudge the town to build around my passenger station
10:12:27 <b_jonas> and want to make the roads look nice so they're continuous
10:12:40 <b_jonas> even though towns pick up roads that aren't continuous with their roads too
10:12:53 <b_jonas> but that looks unnatural so I avoid it
10:13:20 <b_jonas> there's no reason for trains to avoid those roads
10:13:49 <b_jonas> even in a game with competitors, this makes most of the crossings
10:13:58 <Yexo> trains won't avoid them, just if there is a parallel track next to it without road crossings of exactly the same length and with the same amount of trains, it'll chose the one without road crossings
10:13:58 <b_jonas> if I want to spare my vehicles, I build bridges or tunnels
10:14:48 <b_jonas> Yexo: I guess that's true, it's not a very strong penalty
10:14:52 <b_jonas> so I probably should just ignore it
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11:14:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22919 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Doc: Some doxygen sprinkles
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11:47:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r22920 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: replace two very old town variables taht were rarely used by small functions that compute there value on-the-fly when necessary
11:49:56 <Swissfan91> are there any mods online?
11:51:06 <Swissfan91> a moderator of the forums :)
11:52:00 <Swissfan91> although very helpful, I could do with it not in there.
11:53:28 <Yexo> sorry, I'm only moderator for the OpenTTD section
11:53:35 <Yexo> just create a topic report asking for it to be split of
11:53:45 <Yexo> that's generally the fastest way to get moderator attention
12:02:23 <Hyronymus> Swissfan91: your signature is rather much too big definitvely
12:03:01 <Hyronymus> and you want all the pain.net/gimp convo to be split?
12:03:06 <JVassie> Swissfan91: its not that much offtopic
12:12:36 <Swissfan91> Hmmm, I'm not sure. I mean it is really helpful, which led me to think it could be a topic about palettes in drawing programs.
12:15:47 <Swissfan91> shall we keep it in then?
12:24:07 <Alberth> Swissfan91: better make an entry at a wiki then; forum threads are not so easy to retrieve
12:25:59 <planetmaker> forum threads age very fast and in 4 weeks no-one will remember
12:26:22 <planetmaker> if you find something helpful, then wiki conserves knowledge much better
12:28:25 <Swissfan91> Oh I see. Well, I was thinking that FooBars comment about the way to load TTD palette as swatches in Photoshop was the new bit of information. So possibly if he adds that to the wiki?
12:49:15 * andythenorth finds use for HEQS forklift
12:50:25 <planetmaker> 'you' was the statement
12:52:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22921 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (cocoa_v.mm fullscreen.mm): -Fix: [OSX] Don't allow the old fullscreen mode also not as fallback on OSX 10.7. Also add a few sprinkles of coding style accross cocoa display drivers
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13:04:35 <Swissfan91> I don't really understand it, as I don't use photoshop. So me adding it would be silly right?
13:05:20 <Hyronymus> so Swissfan91 , what to do with your report
13:05:23 <valhallasw> you could just add it, with a link to the forum thread
13:05:41 <Swissfan91> you can leave it, Hyro :) thanks.
13:05:49 <valhallasw> in that way, you do add useful information, but you don't have to be afraid of taking the blame!
13:05:58 <valhallasw> (not that anyone would actually blame you, but whatever)
13:07:11 <Hyronymus> but please fix you signature size, Swissfan91
13:08:11 <Swissfan91> ah, I thought it was ok. Hold on.
13:09:01 <Swissfan91> the image is too big? Or too much text?
13:09:10 <Hyronymus> too high in total :)
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13:09:21 <Yexo> you can chose either the image or the text, together it's too much
13:09:48 <Yexo> "Signatures may contain up to five lines (one line being that displayed on a browser opened to 800px width) of text (of small or normal size) and/or one image, valid combinations include; a single image of no more than 60px high, 468px wide and 10KB in size. Two images are allowable side-by-side if they abide by this height rule, and their total width does not exceed 468px. The total file size must be no larger than 15KB. Signatures containing an i
13:09:48 <Yexo> mage this large may also include one line of small size text. Signatures containing an image of 30px high may include up to three lines of small size text or two lines of normal size text. Images of 15px height or less may allow up to three lines of normal size text or four lines of small size text. Please note that minor variations on this will usually be acceptable - in general, think of the common sense rule that your signature should not be lon
13:09:56 <Yexo> sorry, that was more than I thought :p
13:15:38 <Swissfan91> I'm sorting it now.
13:17:12 <andythenorth> pipelines would be nice
13:18:16 <Swissfan91> I have taken two lines out. Will that suffice?
13:18:40 <Yexo> not according to the rules I quoted above, but ask Hyronymus if it's enough for him
13:19:40 <Hyronymus> stop bothering me :P
13:20:42 <Hyronymus> out of curiousity: why the text *Other users screenshots are available
13:23:53 <Swissfan91> Because I just put screenshots, not MY screenshots. Kind of like a disclaimer.
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14:28:21 * planetmaker ponders whom to elect as major...
14:28:27 <planetmaker> All write the same bullshit
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14:33:42 <frosch123> then pick the opposition
14:34:23 <planetmaker> The current major was once member of the NPD before he joined CDU
14:35:09 <frosch123> if everything is bad, the best solution is to deelect everyone
14:35:18 <frosch123> as it is unlikely that they try again
14:35:27 <frosch123> so others can appear
14:36:09 <planetmaker> I'll take a die with me :-)
14:47:46 <planetmaker> right. I could have voted for my grandma as they only wanted the election notification.
14:48:02 <planetmaker> Thus I could in principle vote in every vote location...
14:52:00 <Rubidium> planetmaker: Owen for major? ;)
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15:08:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22922 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Use wrapper methods to access and register spritesets.
15:09:07 *** Hyr|afk is now known as Hyronymus
15:09:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22923 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Move application of the construction stage into TileLayoutSpriteGroup::ProcessRegisters().
15:10:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22924 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Enhance NewGRFSpriteLayout for drawing construction stages in spritelayouts with inconsistent number of sprites per spriteset.
15:10:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22925 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Allow referencing spritesets from different Action1 in a single Action2.
15:11:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22926 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Extended Action1 format to define arbitrary spriteset IDs.
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16:09:02 <Greyfur> I would like to ask, is there any way, how to make two companies service on one track ?
16:09:17 <planetmaker> on default openttd there is not
16:09:29 <Greyfur> I mean in TTD Patch it was possible to buy 75% of the other company and it worked
16:09:39 <planetmaker> I'm sure it doesn't
16:09:52 <planetmaker> you could maybe buy the company completely. But then it was one company
16:10:26 <planetmaker> you can do that here, too, if another company bancrupts
16:11:21 <Greyfur> Well I am sure, I have played a game, where I buyed only 75% of the other company and could use their rails
16:11:34 <planetmaker> well. In any case, this is not TTDPatch
16:11:55 <planetmaker> and in multiplyer it sucks majorly, if someone just bought my company
16:12:16 <planetmaker> and could do with my stuff what s/he wanted
16:12:16 <Greyfur> In that case it must have been Open TTD
16:12:29 <Yexo> no, it probably was ttdpatch
16:12:48 <Yexo> in openttd there has been an infrastructure sharing patch that allowed you to share rails with other companies
16:13:00 <planetmaker> but it's 24 months outdated now
16:17:41 <Greyfur> Actually I don't have the newest up to date openttd installed, so I guess I will try. Thanks!
16:18:01 <planetmaker> it won't allow you that either
16:18:33 <Yexo> Greyfur: there is no nor has there ever been an official version of OpenTTD that supported it
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16:41:43 <planetmaker> that looks different than a quit :-P
16:43:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth: do you have a mac which understands the zoom guesture?
16:44:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: propably
16:44:47 <andythenorth> I turn all that crap off
16:45:41 <Greyfur> planet : thanks for reminding me, why I left the community a few years back.
16:51:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but you run SnowLeopard now, do you?
16:55:36 <planetmaker> or anyone whose mac supports that?
16:57:10 <orudge> planetmaker: "Scroll View Programming Guide for iOS"
16:57:27 <orudge> they're gestures on the iPhone/iPad, etc
16:57:47 <planetmaker> but it's available also for mac
16:57:51 <orudge> I'm not aware of pinch zooming being in the Mac
16:57:56 <planetmaker> it was just the first page in google to explain that
16:58:06 <planetmaker> well, someone posted a patch for that
16:58:12 <planetmaker> But my hardware doesn't support it
16:58:18 <orudge> what hardware do you have?
16:58:28 <planetmaker> but iirc the new macbooks support many guestures
16:58:36 <planetmaker> mine is a 3.x year old macbook
16:58:38 <orudge> hmm, mine is a late 2009 MacBook Pro
16:58:43 <orudge> I'm not sure if it'd support that
16:58:47 <orudge> I've never used it if so
16:59:10 <planetmaker> I'd doubt that it supports that already; but maybe
16:59:27 <orudge> hmm, well, it's a multi-touch touchpad, you can do things like three-finger and four-finger swipes
17:00:52 <planetmaker> hm, orudge, you might need one additional patch...
17:00:52 <orudge> I can do a sort of pinch to zoom in Safari
17:01:21 <orudge> ah, yes, the Trackpad control panel does show things like that
17:01:43 <planetmaker> otherwise you won't get the 10.6 features which it is
17:01:51 <planetmaker> you need snow leopard or newer
17:01:57 * orudge has Snow Leopard and Lion
17:02:19 <planetmaker> then my patch and FS 4760 together should give the result
17:04:52 <planetmaker> do you have compile stuff installed?
17:05:08 <orudge> I haven't built OpenTTD in a few months, seems I don't have liblzma installed
17:05:11 <planetmaker> otherwise with a bit of patience the binary will be compiled here, too. In the hope that it would work elsewhere
17:05:25 <supermop> is there a reason i cannot set service interval greater than 800 days
17:05:31 <planetmaker> but it's not that fast as I watch TV concurrently
17:05:59 <frosch123> planetmaker: if you provide a binary, you should fix the typo in the patch :)
17:06:01 <orudge> but MacPorts can sort that out
17:06:10 <planetmaker> orudge: for testing you could do without liblzma
17:06:29 <orudge> but I may as well install it now anyway :)
17:07:07 <planetmaker> hm, which, frosch123?
17:07:17 <planetmaker> (there's a new version as of today)
17:07:24 <frosch123> + HandleKeypress(WKC_EQUALS<<16);
17:08:29 <frosch123> though this does not necessarily prevent testing
17:08:31 <planetmaker> ah. Yes, I'd consider it a mouse event
17:08:38 <supermop> also, intuitively, shouldn't ctrl+click on order with the 'go to' tool selected copy that order, rather than center screen on that station?
17:08:53 <frosch123> planetmaker: from the spec you posted, it only seems to a be an event for the ottd window
17:08:57 <frosch123> with no specific location
17:10:31 <frosch123> which would mean, zooming an image would always zoom around the center of the window, and not around the finger position
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17:10:49 <orudge> ooh, nice, lots of deprecated warnings when compiling now on the Mac
17:11:16 <planetmaker> orudge: yes, my patch shows them, too. As it makes sure to not build against old sdks (which hides them)
17:11:37 <planetmaker> I guess I should just commit that patch ;-)
17:11:53 <planetmaker> no need to make compatible binaries when not building universal
17:12:38 <planetmaker> *backward compatible
17:13:02 <orudge> well, pinch to zoom seems to work
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17:13:53 <orudge> er, well, use two fingers far apart, and move them close together
17:13:56 <orudge> or vice versa to zoom out
17:14:12 <orudge> check the Trackpad section of the System Preferences, too
17:14:30 <orudge> do you see "pinch open & close" there?
17:14:37 <orudge> if you don't, I guess your hardware doesn't support it
17:14:42 <orudge> I can disable it there and it won't work in OpenTTD
17:15:11 <planetmaker> mine doesn't - or I could use it in other programmes, I guess :-)
17:15:35 <planetmaker> and no, the trackpad preferences doesn't have anything like that.
17:15:41 <planetmaker> that's why I know I don't have it
17:15:50 <orudge> well, it seems to work for me, anyway :)
17:15:58 <frosch123> orudge: do you have some image software which support that zooming?
17:16:59 <orudge> yes, it works there too
17:19:03 <frosch123> orudge: does it matter where you do it?
17:19:12 <frosch123> i.e. does it zoom around the center of your fingers?
17:19:25 <frosch123> or does it always zoom relative to the center of the window?
17:20:10 <orudge> it zooms relative to where the cursor is
17:20:21 <orudge> where your fingers specifically are doesn't matter
17:21:06 <planetmaker> ok, so it should zoom-in in secondary views when the cursor hovers them
17:21:44 <orudge> no, that doesn't happen
17:21:51 <orudge> it only zooms the main OpenTTD viewpoint
17:22:14 <orudge> using two fingers up/down does zoom secondary viewpoints
17:23:03 <planetmaker> hm. normal zooming also works on main viewport, does it?
17:24:41 <planetmaker> hm... I wonder though whether we need two zoom-functions...
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17:27:02 <frosch123> two-finger up/down is like mousewheel?
17:28:33 <planetmaker> and zooms in or out
17:28:46 <planetmaker> and scrolls where it should
17:29:13 <planetmaker> I never use a mouse on this machine ;-)
17:30:57 <frosch123> well, you can disable the scrollwheel zooming in adv. settings
17:31:18 <frosch123> so, if it is the wrong gesture, it can be disabled :)
17:31:41 <frosch123> there is actually a setting to make the scrollwheel scroll the viewport
17:31:55 <frosch123> including x/y direction for second wheel
17:32:08 <frosch123> i guess that works as well with those two finger gestures
17:32:23 <planetmaker> I need a new mac :S
17:35:08 <frosch123> be careful, that means more work
17:35:17 <frosch123> if you decide for a linux box, it would mean less work :p
17:35:45 <planetmaker> well... I could install linux on it, too ;-)
17:35:59 <planetmaker> the hardware is good quality
17:36:29 <planetmaker> I actually still have a 50GB partition free... for either windoze or linux ;-)
17:37:09 <frosch123> dual-boot? who does that today :)
17:37:41 <planetmaker> but also a VM could occupy that
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17:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22927 /trunk/src/lang/slovak.txt:
17:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovak - 126 changes by klingacik
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18:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> but it's 24 months outdated now <-- chill's patchpack contains an updated infrastructure sharing patch
19:03:12 <__ln__> any hope for infrastructure sharing in trunk?
19:03:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i used it a few months ago :)
19:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: not really
19:03:28 <planetmaker> not currently. No one works on it
19:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: too many conceptual problems, imho
19:03:50 <planetmaker> They can be solved
19:03:51 <Eddi|zuHause> just take the payment issue
19:04:05 <__ln__> but it is there already. the oil platforms.
19:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> using transfers (or any kind of destinations patch) only the last mile gets paid
19:04:32 <Eddi|zuHause> all other companies involved get nothing
19:05:52 <__ln__> how about limited infrastructure sharing -- airports usable for everyone?
19:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: yes, it's a trunk bug. but nobody bothered fixing it
19:06:09 <planetmaker> __ln__: that has the same issues
19:06:39 <__ln__> well ok i see there's a problem with shared airports, too.
19:07:20 <planetmaker> I could block it in principle. Or the other one could. Thus it needs a method which removes all own stuff from a competitor's property
19:07:35 <planetmaker> so that I cannot be left with a debt spiral I cannot break
19:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what i missed in infrastructure sharing: merge my tram station with the other player's train station (via ctrl+click)
19:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or add my own platforms
19:08:52 <planetmaker> unrealistic to have stations owned by two ;-)
19:08:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (so not actual sharing of tracks, only transfer points for cargo)
19:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not really unrealistic
19:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> take Leipzig main station, it was a station owned by two companies, the saxon state railway and the prussian state railway
19:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> hence all facilities existed twice
19:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> in the eastern half the trains from erfurt, halle/magdeburg and berlin arrived, and in the western half the trains from dresden arrived
19:10:47 <Eddi|zuHause> err, other way around
19:11:19 <Eddi|zuHause> this is basically still true, as there are very few track connections from one half to the other
19:11:31 <TrueBrain> NOTICE: All OpenTTD webservice will be down for a minute or 5 (how ever long it will take OVH to accept a new mac address). I am sorry if your addiction is hurt in any way.
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19:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> civilian travel on many sections was very low, so it was left to decay after WWII in those areas
19:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the section Sangerhausen-Hettstedt-Aschersleben is still in use
19:19:12 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD Web Services should all be back online. Please let me know if there are any issues
19:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but for example the section Treysa-Leinefelde is decayed. the DDR-BRD border was in that section
19:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> last time i checked, they discussed reopening a short strip Treysa-Homburg (Efze)
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19:32:43 <Ammler> Rubidium: I fear your last tar detection thing is broken
19:33:04 <Ammler> I have same grf, different md5sum once in file dir and once in tar
19:33:15 <Ammler> openttd is not able to load both
19:43:51 <Eddi|zuHause> do you mean "both" as in "at the same time", or as in "either one"?
19:46:10 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: dutchstations once in a tar and once unpacked
19:46:20 <Ammler> different versions (md5sums)
19:46:48 <Ammler> if I rename the unpacked grf, I am able to load the newer grf
19:47:09 <Ammler> I also have setting allow_older_newgrfs set
19:47:11 <planetmaker> Ammler: maybe you can prepare a testcase with those two newgrfs. And a savegame which tries to access the 'hidden' one
19:47:14 <planetmaker> if that's the issue
19:47:34 <Ammler> newgrf_show_old_versions = true
19:47:57 <Ammler> I guess, this has no effect on newgrfs without versions
19:56:05 <Ammler> planetmaker: are you sure, it adds the tar to the path?
19:56:19 <Ammler> as there are paths in the tar
19:56:40 <planetmaker> but only since r22905
19:56:42 <Ammler> so it would be .../newgrf.tar/newgrf/newgrf.grf
19:56:51 <planetmaker> thus we should urgently update tomorrow ;-)
19:57:05 <planetmaker> 18 people is too much to kill the fun
19:57:35 <Ammler> so Rubidium fixed the issue whith the commit I thought he broke it
19:58:15 <planetmaker> well, that fix was actually a crash-fix
19:58:26 <Ammler> [21:32] <Ammler> Rubidium: I fear your last tar detection thing is broken
20:00:06 <Ammler> well, if we restart now, we see how many are really active :-)
20:00:53 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting theory :)
20:12:01 <__ln__> "Nach einem Erdrutsch bei heftigen Regenfällen ist bei St. Goar ein Intercity mit etwa 800 Menschen an Bord am Sonntag entgleist."
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20:33:19 <__ln__> will greece collapse tomorrow?
20:33:38 <Elukka> is there a reason greece would collapse tomorrow in particular?
20:37:25 <Rubidium> if it would, then announcing it ~6.5 hours ago would've had more impact
20:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "an american 'large' egg is equivalent to a european 'medium' egg"
20:44:45 <frosch123> is today the day of quotes?
20:45:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i quote on any other day as well...
22:16:14 <Elukka> any way to run opengfx+ landscape with cs railroad tracks?
22:16:30 <Elukka> no matter the load orders the landscape grf overrides the cs tracks with the default ones
22:16:49 <Elukka> though oddly enough it displays the cs track sprites in the build menus
22:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid that requires a CS-tracks grf that is updated to use railtype-overlays
22:22:06 <Yexo> loading opengfx+landscape before cs railroad tracks works fine here
22:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: might depend on parameters
22:22:29 <Yexo> ogfx+landscape 0.2.2 and CS railroad tracks 1.4
22:23:38 <Yexo> Elukka: which openttd version are you using? are you using any other newgrfs?
22:24:41 <__ln__> Slashdot says "Has Cleverbot Passed the Turing Test?"
22:24:54 <Elukka> Yexo: foobar's r22855 build patched with YACD
22:25:02 <Elukka> using a whole bunch of other grfs, gonna try with just the two
22:32:22 <Elukka> huh. works now somehow
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23:16:11 <Elukka> grfs that have windows and dos versions... which one do you use under opengfx?
23:18:22 <Yexo> if the colors are wrong, click "toggle palette" in the newgrf window after selecting the offending grf
23:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause> rule of thumb: use DOS grf if it has action 14, use windows grf if it doesn't
23:28:09 <EyeMWing> Where in the source if the engine status window? (the one with the viewport and the orders button etc.)
23:31:59 <EyeMWing> wait, no. that's the exclusive preview window.
23:42:17 <Yexo> did you try vehicle_gui.cpp?
23:42:43 <Yexo> the window with the actual orders is in order_gui.cpp
23:43:08 <EyeMWing> vehicle_gui Looks to be the vehicle list. Unless they're both in there.
23:44:17 <Yexo> struct VehicleViewWindow is the one you're looking for
23:44:26 <Yexo> there are several windows defined in vehicle_gui.cpp
23:44:52 <EyeMWing> Yeah. Just spotted it.
continue to next day ⏵
