IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-10
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00:00:05 <Bjarni> this will not happen in OTTD
00:01:41 <Elukka> it will if you play with breakdowns off :P
00:02:39 <Bjarni> oh and the deltic everywhere issue.... in real life I don't like the deltic engine. It's too complex and fragile. This means it spends too long in the repair shop compared to operational hours... another issue not simulated
00:03:09 <Pinkbeast> It does depends on where you are - pretty sure there's nothing left from '61 here.
00:03:17 <Elukka> the crux of the 'issue' is that openttd does not have the complexities that warrant using many different types of engines that real life has
00:03:24 <Bjarni> Cennential suffers from the same bad working/repair radio issue, though for different technical reasons
00:03:37 <Pinkbeast> Bjarni> Well, a sensible treatment of reliability and breakdowns is something we could really use...
00:04:13 <Bjarni> I just don't know how it should be done :p
00:04:30 <Bjarni> not codewise, more like gameplaywise
00:04:42 <Elukka> even then it's only an annoyance because of the way the economy is
00:04:46 <Elukka> with infinite money and all
00:04:54 <Bjarni> how should it be done more realistic without breaking gameplay?
00:04:58 <Pinkbeast> ... I don't have Deltics everywhere in UKRS1 games but only because I never build diesels
00:05:09 <Elukka> ottd isn't really much of a business sim
00:05:22 <Pinkbeast> "more realistic" isn't the question I'm asking, as I see it breakdowns already break gameplay.
00:05:35 <Elukka> i'd like to see a more fleshed out economy, but simultaneously i can see why the ottd devs don't really want to do it and why it's something for someone else to make a branch off
00:06:01 <Bjarni> <Pinkbeast> ... I don't have Deltics everywhere in UKRS1 games but only because I never build diesels <-- in real life UK steam died really fast because it could remove the running costs of water towers and stuff
00:06:01 <Pinkbeast> What'd I'd ask is "how can we make breakdowns a meaningful gameplay element which is not Incredibly Annoying and which makes both high and low reliability locomotives sometimes appropriate"
00:06:38 <Bjarni> <Pinkbeast> "more realistic" isn't the question I'm asking, as I see it breakdowns already break gameplay. <-- yeah, that too.... but it still leaves the question how it should work
00:07:05 <Elukka> pinkbeast, i think that's only possible if you didn't have an essentially infinite amount of money
00:07:15 <Elukka> as it is you'd be using the more reliable locomotives all the time
00:07:33 <Pinkbeast> Not if the low reliability ones tend to be newer and faster.
00:08:37 <Pinkbeast> Bjarni> I tend to feel we should have gone directly from steam to electrification, not kept steam around indefinitely (although we arguably did waste a lot of money building new modern locomotives in the early 50s and scrapping them 10 years later)
00:08:59 <Elukka> didn't the swiss do that?
00:09:17 <Bjarni> Pinkbeast: I fully agree and it was debated even when electrification started
00:09:19 <Pinkbeast> Yes. And given that the SR here was extensively electrified, it's not like it would have been an insurmountable problem.
00:10:01 <Elukka> heh.. prussian EMU for CETS?
00:10:04 <Pinkbeast> Switzerland now is very like the UK might have been without Beeching and Marples - railway stations (often request stops) in villages, bits and bobs of goods sent by rail.
00:10:49 <Bjarni> here (Denmark) the social democrats cancelled the plans for electrification around 1999. Conservative/liberals are in charge now and the social democrats blame those for still running diesel :/
00:11:28 <Bjarni> because the new DMU doesn't work (ordered when electrification was cancelled, hence they ordered those themselves)
00:12:38 <Pinkbeast> We still seem to have this mad "electric and diesel" express train plan coming.
00:13:35 <Elukka> we have stupid rail infrastructure hickups because someone decided it'd be a good idea to split the trains and the tracks to different (state-owned) companies
00:13:44 <Bjarni> I know Spain has a diesel electric train, which can switch to external power, but UK... never heard about it
00:13:55 <Elukka> so when stuff doesn't work the train company gets to say "eh, not our problem" and of course the track company doesn't have the money to keep the tracks in condition
00:14:00 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> Ha, try it here where they're all private
00:14:13 <Bjarni> <Elukka> we have stupid rail infrastructure hickups because someone decided it'd be a good idea to split the trains and the tracks to different (state-owned) companies <--- somebody is EU. Denmark suffers from it too
00:14:30 <Elukka> ours is state-owned yet ran like a private company
00:14:34 <Elukka> a combination of the worst of both worlds! :D
00:14:50 <kbrooks> Elukka, bureautic and ... ?
00:14:55 <Pinkbeast> Network Rail doesn't know quite what it is, to avoid admitting that it's a renationalisation of Railtrack
00:15:14 <Elukka> overly concerned with profit rather than functional rail service
00:15:45 <Bjarni> the infrastructure owner realized they actually need trains to maintain tracks and went out and bought diesel locomotives. Now the infrastructure owner is also a train operator (against the whole idea)
00:16:41 <Elukka> for all my complaining it still works fairly well
00:16:44 <Elukka> but the problems are so avoidable
00:17:24 <Bjarni> the reason why the tracks and trains are split into different companies is because EU wants train companies to operate in all countries
00:17:36 <Bjarni> both DB and SJ drives in Denmark now
00:18:07 <Pinkbeast> Arriva? You have my sympathy.
00:18:22 <Elukka> why does that mean DSB can't still own the infrastructure?
00:19:07 <Bjarni> surprisingly they actually operate just fine.... at least better than DSBFirst (which is a new company formed by DSB, the state railroad, and First group, a Scottish company)
00:19:19 <Pinkbeast> Because a private track+train operator has zero incentive to make it easy for anyone else to run trains on their track
00:19:32 <Pinkbeast> First? You have my... well, y'know.
00:19:54 <Bjarni> <Elukka> why does that mean DSB can't still own the infrastructure? <-- both yes and no. They own repairshops and sidings, but not tracks between stations
00:20:43 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, hmm. in ontario CPR does both
00:21:01 <Elukka> i wonder why we expect other companies would want to run trains in finland, though...
00:21:03 <Bjarni> this one is golden. Some land measure guy went out and measured where DSB still owned land and where they had to give it up (to BaneDanmark)
00:21:13 <Elukka> and then there's the fact we run broad gauge
00:21:18 <Bjarni> the new marked line ended up in a siding
00:21:36 <Bjarni> meaning one rail belongs to DSB and one rail belongs to BaneDanmark
00:21:36 <Pinkbeast> kbrooks> I daresay it is done, but what I'm saying is it doesn't exactly make it easy for competing operators.
00:22:06 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, well, VIA and GO compete in the sense of trains
00:22:51 <Bjarni> <Elukka> i wonder why we expect other companies would want to run trains in finland, though... <--- Arriva started by renting trains in Denmark. They bought new ones now though.
00:22:57 <kbrooks> GO is intercity rail and VIA is national rail
00:22:59 <Bjarni> their routes doesn't leave the country
00:23:17 <Bjarni> it's not like a Copenhagen-London route
00:23:31 <Bjarni> DB made a Copenhagen-Hamburg route through
00:23:39 <Pinkbeast> Oh, Finland's on Russian gauge?
00:23:54 <Bjarni> Pinkbeast: didn't you know that?
00:23:59 <Elukka> finland's on not-quite-russian-but-close-enough-to-run-trains-on-both gauge
00:24:27 <Pinkbeast> Apropos of nothing much I've been on Didcot's _Firefly_ on Brunel's 7' 1/4" broad gauge
00:24:57 <Pinkbeast> Bjarni> Nope, I've never been to Finland let alone on a train
00:25:27 <valhallasw> Elukka: hey, we have that split, too. It doesn't work here, either. (NL)
00:25:34 <Elukka> russian is 1520 mm, finnish is 1524 mm
00:26:39 <Swissfan91> anyone good with MS Visio here ? :D
00:26:42 <Elukka> also we keep buying pendolinos despite them never working
00:27:02 <Elukka> they gave up trying to couple sets together during the winter
00:27:04 <Bjarni> ahhh great.... BaneDanmark decided to add more rocks on the tracks tonight
00:27:17 <Bjarni> it's really noisy outside right now :/
00:27:18 <Pinkbeast> Tilting trains seems to be one of those ideas fated to have to be tried and fail everywhere
00:27:19 <Elukka> these being trains supposedly built for finnish conditions
00:27:24 <valhallasw> please don't get me started about italian trains
00:27:41 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, whats a tilting train?
00:27:43 <Elukka> these ones don't actually tilt
00:27:59 <valhallasw> although that isn't the worst angle
00:28:31 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> Oh, they turn it off in winter?
00:28:44 <Pinkbeast> kbrooks> Er... a train that tilts in corners to let it go faster
00:29:46 <Pinkbeast> It seems like a great idea until you find out a) it means you have to make them smaller, especially if you have an itty-bitty loading gauge like the UK
00:29:57 <Pinkbeast> b) they tend to go wrong on a regular basis
00:30:25 <Pinkbeast> and c) tilting the track in corners works pretty well, doesn't go wrong on a regular basis, and works with all your existing trains too
00:31:08 <Bjarni> valhallasw: the real question is: can the train actually drive?
00:32:20 <valhallasw> Bjarni: well, the brand new ones might. Until someone has to fix them, and realizes he has no idea what wire does what.
00:32:43 <valhallasw> because, well, we're out of yellow wire, so let's continue with red.
00:34:01 <valhallasw> well, there's one running!
00:34:07 <valhallasw> in Libya, at least -_-
00:34:10 <Bjarni> basically it's a DMU which can't connect two sets
00:35:04 <Bjarni> <valhallasw> in Libya, at least -_- <--- that's actually an issue. It's a custom design for DSB only and all of a sudden Gadaffi has one
00:35:12 <Pinkbeast> A lot of high-speed DMUs can't...
00:35:52 <Bjarni> <Pinkbeast> A lot of high-speed DMUs can't... <--- maybe, but the contract stated that 3 sets should be able to drive together as one train
00:36:07 <Bjarni> connecting just two sets is a nightmare
00:36:17 <Bjarni> and so unstable that it's not done anymore
00:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> german ICE3 trains often travel in pairs
00:36:32 <Bjarni> 3 sets has never been possible
00:36:45 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: as well as thalys and tgv sets
00:36:48 <Pinkbeast> I wonder if the circle of reincarnation is going to bring us back to DVTs at some point
00:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> typically on routes that are scheduled to split up and rejoin
00:36:58 <valhallasw> but those are not diesel, technically ;-)
00:37:11 <Bjarni> the trains has A and B ends, which makes 4 possibilities for connecting two sets
00:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there's the ICE-TD
00:37:19 <Bjarni> and that one only partly works
00:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> which honestly has problems on its own...
00:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's actually not derived from the ICE3, but the ICE-T
00:37:53 <valhallasw> why is it, in the 2010's, so hard to build working trains
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00:38:28 <Pinkbeast> Gresley has been dead for 70 years.
00:38:43 <Bjarni> because politicians decides to build them cheap in Italy and then they always go over budget and below specifications
00:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: because of two conflicting developments: more complicated technique needing more maintenance, and economical requirements requiring cutting maintenance cost
00:39:04 <kbrooks> i cann see in two years in my game that road vehicle income - road vehicle expenses is only 10,000. how can i widen that gap?
00:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: as far as i remember, the ICE-TD had problems with the tilting mechanism
00:39:58 <Nite_Owl> Is it known that any river .grf other than the default one glitches in the latest versions of trunk ?
00:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite_Owl: if it's not at the bug tracker, it's not known
00:40:32 <Pinkbeast> What RV set are you using, kbrooks? (And what are the absolute figures here - on what turnover is that 10,000 profit earned?)
00:40:55 * Nite_Owl off to do a quick search
00:41:08 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: as far as i remember, the ICE-TD had problems with the tilting mechanism <-- that explains why they are used between Copenhagen and Hamburg. The speed limits are so low that tilting isn't needed
00:41:26 <Elukka> the old russian and newer swiss locomotives work fine here
00:41:36 <Elukka> the old finnish diesels too
00:41:44 <Elukka> the italian semi high speed EMUs though... they just don't
00:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: they were originally intended for the route Dresden-Nürnberg, which is quite mountaneous and curvy
00:41:57 <Elukka> these ones surprisingly do work
00:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> they were surprisingly enough rarely meeting their scheduled times, due to tilting failing...
00:42:33 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, clarify rv set. also average income for both years and average expenses for both years: 78300 - 65300 = 13,300
00:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and eventually pulled off service, after the track was badly damaged in the 2002 Elbe/Mulde flooding
00:42:59 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, and you might need to clarify turnover.
00:43:25 <Pinkbeast> I mean, are you using the game's default RVs or... ?
00:43:38 <Nite_Owl> Nothing there. I wonder if it is due to a recent .grf change in trunk which would make the .grfs at fault?
00:44:04 <Pinkbeast> The usual explanation is traffic jams somewhere meaning you're paying running costs and getting no income
00:44:20 <Bjarni> The speed limit is 120 km/h a great deal of the way in Denmark. The tracks from Puttgarten to Hamburg aren't anywhere near bullettrain like either
00:44:59 <Nite_Owl> Being that rivers and there generation is a relatively new thing...
00:45:19 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> they were surprisingly enough rarely meeting their scheduled times, due to tilting failing... <--- people wouldn't notice here... they would just be like the other trains :p
00:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: the Dresden-Nürnberg tracks are not especially fast either
00:45:33 <Bjarni> ok, it's not THAT bad, but really...
00:45:38 <kbrooks> pinkbeat: okay, 4 road vehicles have the same loss
00:46:00 <Pinkbeast> It's that or... are you using any transfer orders?
00:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> back when i went by train around there, the limit was 100km/h, dunno if they made special exceptions for tilt trains
00:46:20 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, one minute i'll evaluate the orders
00:46:51 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: I would think the 100 km/h is a physical limit, not a comfort limit
00:47:05 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, okay, no transfer orders, but only two orders
00:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: based on which data?
00:47:31 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, all other road vehicles have more than two orders and they are all making money
00:47:48 <Pinkbeast> Perhaps you could describe the orders of the loss-making vehicles?
00:48:14 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: I would expect speed limits to be related to the foundation of the track etc
00:48:16 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: based on which data? <-- calculated risk of derailing
00:48:19 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, as per to what?
00:48:29 <valhallasw> not on the expected comfort level of passengers in certain coaches
00:48:43 <valhallasw> but I might very well be wrong
00:49:05 <Pinkbeast> Anything at all would be a start. What vehicle? What cargo? Full load orders?
00:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: the entire point of tilt trains is to run faster through curves...
00:49:31 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, good thinking
00:49:39 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but it doesn't change anything physically
00:49:45 <valhallasw> you still have to adapt the track
00:50:02 <Pinkbeast> A savegame might be easier if it's vanilla OTTD
00:50:03 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: the only thing tilting changes is the passenger comfort
00:50:17 <Bjarni> clearly speed limits are for safety reasons
00:50:18 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, buses with passengers. one station has less passengers than the other - 70 times less
00:50:35 <Pinkbeast> And are you giving full load orders at either or both ends?
00:50:47 <Bjarni> in this case they forgot to tell the train drivers that the track was bad and that they should slow down
00:51:22 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, they aren't (as far as di can see) needed because the buses have 37 passengers and both stations are consistently over 37 passengers
00:52:51 <valhallasw> anyway, my clock suggests it's time for bed. Good night to you all.
00:52:55 <Pinkbeast> Is this ordinary OTTD or a patch pack or something? Do the stations connect to anywhere else?
00:52:57 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, i just told the buses to unload and wait for full load
00:53:10 <kbrooks> Pinkbeast, ordinary OTTD and nowhere else
00:53:25 <Pinkbeast> Obviously you don't want to wait for a full load at the less busy end.
00:53:42 <Pinkbeast> And I think in general you should avoid reading "Are you doing XYZ" as "You should do XYZ"
00:54:10 <kbrooks> i didn't read it as that
00:54:20 <Pinkbeast> "i just told the buses to unload and wait for full load" - why?
00:54:54 <kbrooks> one bus i looked and noticed passengers didnt drop off
00:55:08 <Pinkbeast> Does the small station actually accept passengers?
00:55:56 <kbrooks> it doesnt accept passengers
00:57:35 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: is there supposed to be what seem to be company color 2 colors on the CETS livery template?
00:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: company colour 2 is only active if you enable it by coding the grf. it's just supposed to be a green blob otherwise...
00:58:49 <Elukka> hm, okay, so those colors can be used?
01:02:01 <Elukka> was pondering which template to use for the prussian compartment wagons when i remembered the umbauwagen that i previously drew were built out of them...
01:10:22 <Swissfan91> any fancy drawing some industries? :D
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01:12:19 <Elukka> unfortunately i'm quite busy on this :P
01:12:22 <Elukka> (busy procrastinating i mean)
01:15:21 <Swissfan91> well at least now I have drawn up an industry tree, so I know what to draw
01:16:46 <Swissfan91> so hopefully, you'll be seeing industries such as florists, meadows and vineyards soon :)
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01:19:26 <Elukka> hm, prussians had both brown and green coaches...
01:22:13 <Elukka> brown was third class, green was second, green with yellow trim first, apparently
01:22:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. grey=4th class, brown=3rd class, green = 2nd clas
01:22:59 <Elukka> is CETS going to use more than one?
01:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say for local coaches start with 3rd class, and then do other fancy stuff
01:24:09 <Elukka> hmm... brown for the 2 axles, green for the 4 axles, maybe? can always draw variations later
01:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> might do random liveries or livery refits later
01:24:13 <Elukka> what about the 3 axle cars though
01:24:47 <Elukka> i love what DB set does with the UIC-X wagons
01:25:01 <Elukka> adds the restaurant coach, though i'd prefer if the first class coaches weren't refits but were randomly added
01:27:00 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe for the early ages, we could do 2 axle coaches for local trains, and 3 axle coaches for express trains
01:27:26 <Elukka> what about the longer prussian coaches?
01:28:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there are also commuter coaches to be picked
01:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> just pick a few common coaches and start drawing :)
01:29:16 <Elukka> drawing a green 3 axle coach at the moment
01:33:23 <Elukka> well, or brown, or whatever. not going to take more than a second to change it long as i keep the base color on a separate layer
01:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you can use some magic colours and do a recolour table for both
01:40:39 <kbrooks__> so i've been having a train signal issue
01:41:16 <kbrooks__> after one train leaves a station, in the process there is a two way signal it has to go through.
01:41:53 <kbrooks__> threre is another train in the station that is leaving, but i t is blocked by that train.
01:41:57 <Pinkbeast> Path-based or block-based?
01:42:07 <Pinkbeast> A screenshot is probably the thing here.
01:42:18 <kbrooks__> bllock based - what is path-based?
01:42:46 <Pinkbeast> That's about the level of it.
01:42:48 <kbrooks__> due to following ordders?
01:42:49 <Elukka> they're the rightmost signals in the signal interface, i think?
01:43:06 <kbrooks__> do path based signals follow orders?
01:43:32 <Pinkbeast> Do they "follow orders"?
01:43:38 <Pinkbeast> I have no idea what you mean, I'm afraid.
01:43:39 <Elukka> in practice they work the same as normal signals except they're better
01:45:00 <Pinkbeast> But fundamentally; suppose you have an X crossover between two lines. With block-based signals, a train on one line blocks the other line. With path-based signals it doesn't; trains reserve a path to the next signal and only that path blocks other trains.
01:45:50 <kbrooks__> how do i change things over?
01:46:15 <Pinkbeast> There's a "replace signal" tool in the signals gui, but let's see a screenshot of your problem?
01:46:40 <kbrooks__> actually none available yet but i think it will recur soon
01:46:57 <Pinkbeast> The layout will probably suffice to work out what's wrong.
01:47:27 <kbrooks__> how do i d o one within game
01:48:56 <Pinkbeast> Pulldown menu from the rightmost icon on the toolbar
01:51:11 <kbrooks__> actually this one is the imaage
01:52:02 <Pinkbeast> OK, where's the problem happen?
01:53:09 <kbrooks__> one train from thre top leaving station. one train at bottom leaving too and two trains backlogged from north waiting for the top train to leave, but top train is blocked by the signal after the station
01:54:34 <Pinkbeast> Which station? Strathill mines?
01:54:50 <Pinkbeast> You essentially never want series of two-way signals like that.
01:55:05 <Pinkbeast> It's a recipe for trains coming up to each other and stopping.
01:55:29 <kbrooks__> so what do i do insteased f the current configuration?
01:56:33 <Pinkbeast> Well, short of going to path-based signals, _no_ two-way signal except perhaps at a station entrance.
01:57:07 <Pinkbeast> But that crossover NE of Strathill Mines is a perfect example of the problem with block signalling - only one train can use it at once.
01:59:53 <kbrooks__> if i use a path signal at the station entrance, what will be the result?
02:01:56 <Pinkbeast> Notice I have one-way signals right up to the crossover.
02:03:16 <Pinkbeast> But I think your problem is more fundamental - if you have a line of track with multiple 2-way signals on, there's nothing stopping a train entering it at each end, and then they meet in the middle.
02:07:07 <Pinkbeast> Terminus stations with block-based signals usually use pre-signals and exit signals - otherwise there's nothing to stop a train entering the block before the station when all platforms are full, and then no-one can get out.
02:07:16 <Pinkbeast> So I would also read the wiki about pre-signals and exit signals.
02:15:30 <Elukka> hmm... fine line between too messy and not enough detail on the compartment coaches
02:15:45 <Elukka> there's so much detail that's way, way smaller than 1 pixel that one still needs to suggest is there in some way
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02:57:15 <Elukka> i swear it's impossible to get this right
02:57:19 <Elukka> not really happy with either option
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03:03:40 <kbrooks__> good night everyone sweet dreams :)
03:52:21 <pjpe> the level of nfo that 2cc uses is just
03:52:27 <pjpe> just too much for me to comprehend
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07:24:21 <Rubidium> good moaning andythenorth ;)
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08:59:12 <Terkhen> good morning everyone
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11:49:39 <PeanutHorst> (i think that word has one too many 'i's in it)
12:27:34 <csaba2> anyone has this problem with the latest openttd? In Win7, when at least one other application is minimized, then the OpenTTD window also starts minimized and cannot be restored until all the other windows are restored?
12:31:05 *** csaba2 is now known as csaba
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12:39:51 <b_jonas> csaba: I don't know, I'm not running ttd on windows. also see topic.
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13:27:19 <Godde> Question: Can one enable "click-dragging" on the landscape tools found in the scenario editor?
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13:31:04 <frosch123> no, they are inconsistent
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14:11:08 <TrueBrain> it is weird seeing your own bot reporting information you never put in there :P
14:16:08 <dihedral> sorry TrueBrain that would have been me :-P
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15:08:24 <valhallasw> Eddi|zuHause: correction: like a screenshot from an FPS tech demo
15:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but apparently it's a real photo of a real police uniform...
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15:52:57 <Alberth> germany has entered the matrix !
16:00:36 <SpComb> the colors on the car are a little too dull
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16:02:27 <TramOfDeath> One nameset NGRF seems to fail to download.
16:02:42 <TramOfDeath> slovenian town names
16:03:48 <planetmaker> in what way 'fail to download'?
16:04:17 <planetmaker> what did you try? How?
16:04:35 <frosch123> it is stuck at 9 of 34 KiB :)
16:05:38 <TramOfDeath> it gets stuck when loading through Content Downloader
16:05:43 <frosch123> the file is actually only 9 KiB (when downloaded from the website)
16:05:52 <frosch123> so something is wrong with the size stores in bananas
16:06:17 <frosch123> TramOfDeath: download actually succeeds
16:06:23 <frosch123> it is present after canceling
16:07:18 <TramOfDeath> Then submitter must resubmit... probably full size stamped instead of compressed
16:07:34 <frosch123> there are two versions of that grf on bananas
16:07:45 <frosch123> one is listed as 9KiB, one as 34KiB
16:08:12 <TramOfDeath> Then older one must be smashed
16:08:15 <frosch123> yeah, two grfs with the same name and same version
16:08:23 <frosch123> so there is a conflict in the storage
16:08:33 <frosch123> TrueBrain: ^^ any idea?
16:08:39 <frosch123> i guess we have to delete one from the db
16:09:05 <TramOfDeath> Delete whichever is older
16:09:17 <frosch123> they are from different authors though
16:09:33 <frosch123> so they are not different versions of the same grf
16:09:40 <frosch123> just two which share the name :p
16:09:48 <TramOfDeath> !!!!!!! Give one double spaces in name!!!
16:10:05 <TramOfDeath> Slovenian Name Set
16:10:42 <planetmaker> less ! do a marvelously better job
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16:12:43 <TramOfDeath> All authors must have an authortag that's automatically added to the name - 6-letter tags like XBL gamertags.
16:13:04 <frosch123> TramOfDeath: we already have a unique id
16:13:23 <frosch123> but it is not included in the package name
16:13:44 <frosch123> it makes no sense to name packages the same anyway
16:13:50 <frosch123> bananas should just forbid that :p
16:14:54 <TramOfDeath> Now the 34 one fails to dload and the 9 one is shown as "obtained"
16:16:47 <frosch123> yes, you won't be able to downlaod the 34 one
16:16:53 <frosch123> it is shadowed by the 9 one
16:18:32 <TramOfDeath> Give second one a .00 version
16:19:39 <TramOfDeath> or kill second one entirely, and send the author an email so the authors of two could possibly work on one set
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16:26:20 * TramOfDeath is mad and almost ready to explode
16:27:33 <Rubidium> frosch123: why would it be shadowed? It's a completely different NewGRF
16:27:48 <frosch123> Rubidium: the download file has the same name
16:28:08 <frosch123> both are called Slovenian_Town_Names-1.0.tar.gz
16:28:26 <frosch123> you can only access one of them via the website as well as ingame
16:28:46 <TramOfDeath> Make 34kb one Slovenian_Town_Names-1.00.tar.gz
16:28:56 <Rubidium> yay... yet another bananas bug
16:29:29 <TramOfDeath> BANANA is also a code word for 8==>
16:29:51 <frosch123> TramOfDeath: just download it from the forums, if you really need it so badly
16:29:52 <TramOfDeath> No wonder the server fails...
16:30:11 <Rubidium> nah, just the validation upon uploading fails horribly
16:30:24 <Rubidium> it should prevent duplicate filenames
16:30:35 <TramOfDeath> Not that I need it badly but that if it gets amids the list of dloads it shreds the dload
16:31:01 <frosch123> TramOfDeath: let me guess, you downloaded everything, and now you are sad that you cannot get 100% :p
16:31:28 <TramOfDeath> not everything, everything except maps and scens
16:31:46 <frosch123> yup, completely unnecessary
16:32:04 <frosch123> a waste of bandwidth
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16:32:47 <frosch123> do you also go to the supermarket and get one of everything?
16:33:02 <TramOfDeath> I'm not a shopper
16:33:26 <TramOfDeath> to me, a shop is a putrid maze
16:34:40 <TramOfDeath> Just give one a .00 version. OR! Make Bananas have author-assigned folders
16:35:39 <frosch123> @mode +q tramofdeath
16:35:39 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +q tramofdeath!*@*
16:35:57 <planetmaker> TramOfDeath: I ask you then please provide a fix to the content service code. You seem to know how it works
16:35:57 <frosch123> stop muttering if you have no idea what you are talking about
16:37:39 <frosch123> @mode -q tramofdeath
16:37:39 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -q tramofdeath!*@*
16:38:16 <planetmaker> also that wouldn't stop the error. Just make it less likely
16:38:37 <frosch123> he was really mad that he could not get everything :p
16:38:56 <frosch123> better add some billing :p
16:39:27 <frosch123> 0.01€, 0.02, 0.04 :p
16:39:28 <planetmaker> fibonacci-like price-scaling. in cents or so
16:39:41 <frosch123> gives 655.36€ on 16th :p
16:40:07 <planetmaker> then we finally can afford a whole datacentre ;-)
16:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause> fibonacci is roughly 1.7^n
16:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (1+sqrt(5))/2
16:48:51 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.61803398875
16:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so more like 1.6^n
16:49:20 <frosch123> @calc ((1+sqrt(5))/2)**16
16:49:20 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2206.9995469
16:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's the one
16:49:43 <frosch123> @calc ((1+sqrt(5))/2)**219 / 100
16:49:43 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 58653403043022312263554073106844728212586496
16:49:56 <frosch123> still expensive to download all :p
16:50:16 <pugi> @calc -1/(1+sqrt(5))/2 + 1
16:50:16 <DorpsGek> pugi: 0.845491502813
16:50:27 <pugi> @calc -1/((1+sqrt(5))/2) + 1
16:50:43 <pugi> wasn't it something like that?
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16:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**219-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**(-219))
16:51:28 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5246119852635567077522623475390716824835325952-69437186044397471436092645310464i
16:51:37 <pugi> @calc 1 + 1/((1+sqrt(5))/2)
16:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> something about that result doesn't look right
16:52:25 <frosch123> making money with the golden ratio? makes sense :p
16:53:16 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: your parentheses are in the wrong places
16:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**219-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**(219))
16:53:18 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 2623059926317818082240167956946549197580009472
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17:31:52 <George> planetmaker: yes, I dud, but I had no time to think about it yet
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17:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22916 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt croatian.txt slovak.txt):
17:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
17:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 22 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: slovak - 35 changes by klingacik
18:13:57 <Elukka> Eddi|ZuHause: do you know if the typical prussian coach had the brakeman's cabin or if those were some kind of special coach they'd put at the end of a train or something?
18:14:06 <Elukka> i'm seeing lots of variants with one and without one
18:20:48 <Elukka> ah, i guess they were pretty common
18:24:23 <Bjarni> I wonder a bit about the whole brakevan idea
18:24:48 <Bjarni> logically it would be better to just add the brakes to the actual cars
18:24:54 <Bjarni> and ideally all of them
18:26:15 <Bjarni> so why did some country save so much on brakes?
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18:28:24 <Elukka> they didn't have continuous braking... so each car with brakes had to have a person to operate them
18:29:23 <Elukka> and i suppose adding a brakeman's cab to every car would be a bit of expense plus they use a bit of space
18:32:13 <EyeMWing> Brake vans (or whatever's at the end) would typically run with the brakes partially applied to keep slack out of the train.
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18:33:25 <EyeMWing> Which is particularly important if your couplers allow a lot of slack.
18:34:09 <Bjarni> Passengertrains in Denmark didn't have either brakevan or brakeman's cabs. Instead they just had a brake on the end. No wasted space and nobody said all brakes had to be manned
18:34:49 <Elukka> a brake in the end operated how?
18:35:46 <Bjarni> it would make sense to avoid slack. After all back when cars were connected by hook and chains without spindles, the slack were really bad
18:36:49 <Elukka> i'm not aware that we had either brake vans or brakemen either (though i'm not sure), but i think that had more to do that trains before continuous braking were pretty short
18:37:21 <Elukka> for some reason the brits had brake vans and brakeless freight cars into the 60's
18:38:00 <Bjarni> That's around 100 years after Westinghouse invented the air brake
18:38:31 <EyeMWing> There is no force in the universe more powerful than British conservatism.
18:38:45 <Bjarni> Denmark didn't use compressed air brakes until the Germans ordered those as a standard in 1939
18:38:53 <Bjarni> before that it was vacuum
18:40:03 <Bjarni> to begin with railroads were not too pleased with air brakes
18:40:15 <Bjarni> they were expensive and could they be trusted?
18:40:50 <Bjarni> however that's 1895, not 1960 :p
18:41:17 <andythenorth> could we extend newgrf spec please? To allow/require industry tiles to overbuild houses
18:41:51 <Bjarni> you mean like clearing a house to make room for a factory?
18:42:31 <Swissfan91> does anyone know how to make a building sprite place a tree from whichever tree set is loaded?
18:43:50 <Bjarni> you guys do realise you want to push newgrf specs quite a lot, don't you :p
18:44:21 <EyeMWing> Why bother extending the spec if nobody wants to use it?
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18:45:06 <andythenorth> EyeMWing: ok good point
18:45:08 <andythenorth> let's not bother
18:45:34 <EyeMWing> no, I'm pointing out that your constantly needing the spec pushed is a good thing.
18:46:46 <EyeMWing> Heck, I've been doing this newgrf thing quietly for all of 2 weeks and I already have a small wishlist of requests.
18:47:35 <andythenorth> Bjarni: quite a bit of the extension is to avoid relying on overly-specific special flags
18:47:38 <Bjarni> new ideas is the first step to progress
18:49:39 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 minutes and 1 second ago: <Bjarni> new ideas is the first step to progress
18:50:12 <Bjarni> you even repeat the line I made a grammar error in >_<
18:51:19 <Rubidium> isn't ideas just a new Apple product?
18:51:50 <Bjarni> ideas can be lots of stuff
18:52:20 <Bjarni> and they might not even be good
18:52:31 <Rubidium> likewise that windows can be used as both a plural as well as singular
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18:53:36 <Elukka> 3D... i think it's taken up until the last couple of years for 3D sequels to isometric 2D games to actually look good
18:53:47 <Elukka> there was this uncomfortable period where everyone wanted 3D but it just didn't quite look as good
18:54:32 <Bjarni> I read a review of minecraft. It stated that the game could have been made 10 years ago, but back then everybody just wanted 3D and not gameplay
18:54:48 <Bjarni> everybody= people in charge of gaming industry
18:54:50 <Elukka> minecraft has barely any gameplay though :P
18:55:02 <Elukka> more like a pure sandbox
18:55:30 <Elukka> anno 1404 made me realize that finally 3D games can look as good, and better, as the old isometric games
18:55:43 <Bjarni> it's not limiting the players ability to do what he wants to do
18:56:07 <burtybob> Does anyone have any idea why I can't buy out companies in a game I saved from a multiplayer game? (Running 1.1.3-RC1) All settings are set to on in regards buying shares and I can buy up to and including 75%
18:56:35 <Bjarni> buying other companies are disabled in multiplayer since they causes desyncs
18:56:47 <Bjarni> I guess that ban is saved in your game
18:56:56 <Bjarni> Rubidium: you changed that?
18:57:09 <Elukka> a competitive mode could be kinda interesting
18:57:32 <Bjarni> ok, they used to cause desyncs then :p
18:57:33 <Rubidium> Bjarni: shares are disabled because they make it very easy to cheat yourself into having loads of money very quickly
18:57:37 <Elukka> i think the one good idea sid meier's railroads had was the fairly fast paced competitive multiplayer that felt much like an RTS skirmish
18:57:55 <Elukka> i'd still play ttd mostly as a sandbox but i wouldn't mind an occasional competitive match
18:58:28 <burtybob> So is there no way to buy out the old Player companies? I'd just have to bankrupt them?
18:58:31 <frosch123> Bjarni seems to still live in the year 2008 or so :p
18:58:39 <Bjarni> man I feel old school. Reading "sid meier's railroads" made me think of Railroad Tycoon and didn't even realise until I read the word multiplayer :p
18:59:48 <Bjarni> frosch123: wrong year :P
19:00:04 <Rubidium> burtybob: might be that buying the company would make you go over one of the vehicle limits?
19:00:21 <frosch123> Bjarni: not available here
19:00:31 <Bjarni> so the video hides too
19:01:44 <Rubidium> if (!c->is_ai) return cost; // We can not buy out a real company (temporarily). TODO: well, enable it obviously.
19:01:56 <Rubidium> seems you can't take over non-AIs, unless they're bankrupting
19:02:21 <Bjarni> temporarily is how many years?
19:02:30 <Rubidium> probably because of hostile takeovers in MP. The owner of the company that is to be taken over should be asked first
19:02:34 <planetmaker> well. It's there for gameplay reasons
19:02:50 <Rubidium> Bjarni: since 0.3.4/5 ?
19:03:12 <planetmaker> I mean, I could otherwise annoy out of playing all other players when I'm the leading company
19:03:37 <planetmaker> just buy them... and 'good bye' (or good buy?)
19:03:43 <Bjarni> I seem to recall this was disabled because it caused desyncs. Then everybody agreed not to fix it because of gameplay issues.
19:04:24 <Bjarni> something like one guy could become much richer than everybody else and buy everybody (hostile takeover) and nobody else would have a chance
19:04:37 <Rubidium> Bjarni: if it caused desyncs, then bankruptcy would as well... so it should've been fixed
19:05:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22917 /trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt: -Fix: translation failed to conform to rules of strgen
19:06:07 <Bjarni> maybe not. It depends on how the "lost player" client acts. If bankruptcy kicks him and hostile takeover doesn't.... or something like that.
19:06:28 <Bjarni> though it is likely that such an issue could have been fixed
19:06:44 <Bjarni> after all most of the code have been modified since back then
19:07:16 <Rubidium> anyhow, either it's me or the process has been improved... but I'm not seeing many real desyncs these times. Most (if not all) of the recent ones seem to be theoretical rather than from a bug report
19:07:36 <Elukka> what about a mode where the player who eliminates all other companies by hostile takeovers wins?
19:07:44 <Elukka> would have to be played with gentlemen with all the exploits around ;P
19:08:06 <Bjarni> that would be interesting
19:08:22 <Rubidium> well, first fix the "generate free money with shares" issue
19:08:30 <Bjarni> though I bet it would need to be a password protected server
19:08:31 <frosch123> that would always result in a draw?
19:08:43 <frosch123> unless you can force other players to sell their stocks
19:09:03 <Rubidium> otherwise starting the 3 earliest companies would mean you've basically won that game
19:09:07 <Elukka> you'd just buy out their stocks, they don't get a say
19:09:28 <Elukka> yeah i think this would have to be a fairly fast paced game on a smallish map that's played with the same players in one or two sittings
19:09:36 <frosch123> Elukka: imagine 3 companies who have bought 25% of each of them
19:09:51 <Bjarni> companies younger than 10 years shouldn't sell stocks
19:10:00 <frosch123> noone can get more than 75%, because 25% are always owned by someone else
19:10:06 <Bjarni> not realistic, but could do for gameplay
19:10:22 <Rubidium> Bjarni: it's already 5 or 6 years
19:10:24 <Elukka> the whole idea is unrealistic anyhow :D
19:10:54 <Bjarni> all companies could end up with 4 owners owning 25% each and cause a draw
19:11:16 <Elukka> i imagine you could still buy the portions of a company even if it's owned by someone else
19:11:17 <Bjarni> <Elukka> the whole idea is unrealistic anyhow :D <--- the game is unrealistic.... live with it :P
19:11:20 <Elukka> shit, how did it work...
19:11:24 <Elukka> hey it was my idea i know
19:11:31 <Elukka> sid meier's railroads did just this
19:14:59 <Bjarni> Railroad Tycoon 2 had an interesting stock system
19:15:18 <Bjarni> where companies could get money by making more stocks
19:15:28 <Bjarni> *releasing more stocks
19:15:53 <Bjarni> meaning if you own 40% of a company and you didn't pay attention you could end up owning 24%
19:17:15 <frosch123> it's called "increase of capital stock"
19:17:42 <Bjarni> buying stocks on margin is an interesting idea too
19:18:03 <Bjarni> though it could go really bad if you failed to meet a margin call :p
19:18:17 <frosch123> "increas of capital" is a normal thing to avoid take-overs
19:18:33 <Bjarni> then it autosold stocks until you had enough cash, though when stocks were sold, the price dropped, forcing you to sell even more
19:18:34 <frosch123> just, stock holders limit it usually :p
19:18:50 <Bjarni> and from one day to the next you could lose everything
19:19:25 * Bjarni should check what he writes before hitting enter
19:19:38 <Bjarni> you could lose everything in a single day
19:19:47 <EyeMWing> I remember that system. It was hilarious.
19:20:09 <EyeMWing> At one point I had my stock splitting every single month.
19:20:09 <Bjarni> kind of like real stock marked
19:20:27 <Bjarni> the margin thing was the thing which crashed Wall Street in 1929
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19:22:59 <Bjarni> thinking of RT2, I remember I once had a game where I should take x carloads to Alaska within a certain time. I had the train reach the destination station, but before it was at the stopping point, time ran out >_<
19:23:32 <Bjarni> had the train been one tile closer, then it would have made it
19:23:39 <planetmaker> Elukka: the main problem is the starting time. People really would need to join all at the same time. Or some would have an unfair advantage.
19:23:49 <planetmaker> or at least unpausing at the same time
19:23:58 <planetmaker> EyeMWing: btw, your project now exists
19:24:07 <planetmaker> you probably got an e-mail about that
19:24:39 <EyeMWing> planetmaker: Just got it. Thanks.
19:25:10 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3 rinsed rt2
19:25:16 <andythenorth> it was seriously better
19:25:33 * andythenorth wonders if RT3 works on current OS X 10.6 :(
19:27:11 <Bjarni> I once wondered about mixing RT and settlers. I thought it would be cool to make those small men build railroads and build use those to transport all those goods, which they took ages to carry around
19:27:23 <Bjarni> I'm not going to code that :p
19:28:39 <Bjarni> I remember when RT3 came out for mac. $50 and no demo. I seriously was unsure if I could run it "good enough" on my computer
19:28:46 <Elukka> one of my dream games that i'm not actually going to make is transport tycoon in pseudo-realistic space
19:28:50 <Bjarni> which made me turn away from it >_<
19:29:10 <Elukka> transfer orbits and launch windows might resemble railroads more than a bit actually
19:29:35 <Bjarni> sounds interestting....
19:29:47 <Bjarni> though unusual can be a good thing
19:30:23 <Elukka> i think it's possible to make it easy on the player, though i imagine coding it would be a nightmare :D
19:31:19 <Bjarni> we should make a coding bot, which can take over for all the coding nightmares we don't want to do outselves
19:31:23 <Bjarni> now that would be cool
19:31:28 <Elukka> you'd have industries on planets and in orbit around them
19:31:38 <Elukka> and space habitats and whatnot
19:31:52 <Bjarni> just one question: where do the steam trains get oxygen from in space?
19:32:47 <Elukka> the way space works is you have orbits that take little fuel but take a long while and have limited launch windows
19:33:04 <Elukka> these could be economical for big ore freighters and that sort of thing, so they'd essentially run on rails and on schedules
19:33:18 <Elukka> but you can always use more fuel to get where you're going faster
19:33:52 <Bjarni> I fear I could spend ages coding that and then the gameplay turns out to suck :p
19:33:55 <Elukka> suppose you want to transport fusion fuel from saturn to the lucrative earth market
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19:35:49 <Elukka> you go to a route planner screen, give your ship orders to load helium-3 at saturn and to make a stop at your fuel depot to load up on fuel
19:36:31 <Elukka> then click on earth, and select what kind of trajectory you want it to fly (this could simply be a slider, the less fuel the more time the more fuel the less time it takes), unload the helium-3 and visit another fuel depot to stock up on fuel again
19:36:40 <Elukka> it'll do this automatically just like ttd trains unless you tell it to stop
19:37:11 <Elukka> the challenge comes from gaining a competitive edge, perhaps by better spacecraft, a cheap source of fuel, maybe you'll build your own fuel depots or something
19:38:17 <Elukka> ideally you of course want your ships to fly their routes fast but you've somehow got to secure the fuel for them and it might not be cheap everywhere, so burning too much cuts deep into your profit margins
19:39:42 <Bjarni> I once made my own board game. The game field was just a pieced of squared A4 paper. Each player had a starting location and then one could dig around. Dice could tell if mines were discovered
19:39:57 <Bjarni> the goal was to find as many mines and correct ones to produce stuff
19:40:15 <Bjarni> or make soldiers to steal the stuff from the other guys
19:40:15 <Elukka> damn, now i want my space ttd again :(
19:40:35 <Elukka> i imagine the aesthetics would look rather like this amazing video
19:40:40 <Bjarni> I never finished making the rules and new stuff came up for each game
19:41:29 <Bjarni> come to think of it, I guess I could actually code that game. It wasn't that complex
19:41:50 <Bjarni> though I think it was more fun to play when I was 10 :p
19:42:43 <Bjarni> oh yeah, your "people" were dwarves and like Moria you could encounter stuff in the rocks, which were not meant to be released
19:43:38 <Bjarni> I recall one time my friend did that right in the beginning before he had means of defending himself.... he wasn't happy :p
19:43:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:44:59 * planetmaker feels like being in #alt.games.misc
19:45:38 <Bjarni> in an alternative universe
19:46:26 <Bjarni> Elukka: I bet planetmaker could help you to make your game. After all he is experienced with planets and orbits ;)
19:47:44 <Elukka> i have knowledge of planets and orbits, but zero knowledge of making a game :P
19:47:58 <pjpe> you just use your keyboard
19:48:54 <Elukka> the extent of my usefulness is that i have an idea of how space and spacecraft work and can make 3D models and textures and sprites
19:48:57 <Bjarni> Elukka: making a game is easy. Just draw what you want and then pay some Asian to do it
19:49:19 <Bjarni> you will end up with your game, but it will act as spyware as well
19:50:16 <Bjarni> once some HDs were produced in China and they came preformatted.... somebody figured out the preformatted disks contained spyware
19:50:26 <Elukka> i do have the occasional tendency to model spacecraft
19:50:30 <Bjarni> normal HDs you could buy in computer stores
19:51:08 <Bjarni> I once tried to build the cargo ship from Deuteros out of lego
19:51:08 <Elukka> yeah i heard something about that
19:51:40 <Bjarni> though I used all my blocks so I had nowhere to dock it :p
19:53:32 <Bjarni> I think I built it 20 years ago
19:53:44 <Bjarni> and I have taken it apart afterwards
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20:11:04 <Elukka> man i want the technology they have in CSI
20:11:22 <Elukka> computer goes *BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP building 3D object*
20:11:27 <Elukka> 5 seconds later, nice clean 3D model
20:11:34 <Rubidium> yeah, that'd be lovely...
20:12:45 <TrueBrain> one day, I promise, it will work!
20:14:01 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: don't you mean @hack FBI? ;)
20:16:45 <Elukka> i bet they would alos love to have that technology :P
20:17:02 <pjpe> you mean like a laser scanner?
20:17:39 <Elukka> like a laser scanner except without it taking hours to scan and dozens of hour to process afterwards
20:17:45 <Terkhen> a laser scanner takes a lot of time, yup
20:17:55 <Elukka> it just makes a point cloud
20:18:00 <Terkhen> joining the different meshes is a PITA
20:18:30 <Terkhen> that's scary, the one I used automatically triangulated the mesh :P
20:19:51 <Elukka> haven't heard that they could actually make a solid surface mesh
20:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> can't you do that on-the-fly? you have a locality condition based on the order the points were scanned#
20:21:25 <Terkhen> with this one the mesh cames triangulated already from the machine itself; it also comes with colour for each point
20:21:34 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's what the model I used does
20:21:49 <Terkhen> it just takes a squared mesh and triangulates each square of points
20:43:04 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: are the grey prussian coaches just kinda medium grey like the roofs? i've never seen any models or pictures of any
20:46:41 <Elukka> wonder why nobody seems to make models of grey compartment coaches..
20:46:44 <Elukka> hm. so fairly light colored i gues
20:48:02 <Swissfan91> you're a real regular on here, aren't you Elukka :)
20:48:39 <Elukka> came to ask a question, stayed to draw trains
20:50:15 <JVassie> Terkhen: can NML handle stations?
20:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so yet
20:50:46 <JVassie> an excuse for me not coding BMSS yet then :p
20:51:09 <Terkhen> learn python instead and help with nml development :P
20:51:29 <Swissfan91> if I can 'learn' to draw, jvassie, you can code that set :P
20:52:06 <JVassie> got too much on my plate *whistles*
20:53:56 <JVassie> 9-6 job, C++ games dev diploma, writing my own MMO
20:56:30 <JVassie> nfo stations are a barrel of laughs ive heard too
20:58:10 <Elukka> swissfan you can learn to draw just by drawing a bit :P
20:58:27 * Terkhen only managed to learn how to recolour and copy paste stuff
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21:03:23 <Elukka> i think everyone can learn to draw if they put enough effort to it
21:03:29 <Elukka> similarly even i could learn to code :P
21:03:43 <planetmaker> :-) definitely true. At least to some extent
21:05:19 <JVassie> think it was PM who gave me some sampel station code
21:05:29 <JVassie> took me ages just to get copy paste working :/
21:05:35 <planetmaker> I don't think so.
21:05:40 <planetmaker> nfo stations are a mystery to me
21:10:49 <Yexo> just spell it out, I don't care about the highlight :)
21:15:20 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: is it both ends of the templates that overlap by 1 px?
21:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, one overlaps with the other, so if you want a gap, you must make both transparent
21:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, both should be same colour, or you get weird effects
21:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> occasonally one is drawn over the other...
21:17:12 <Elukka> is it the vertical column or the horizontal row that overlaps in the views between 45 degree and 90 degree diagonal?
21:34:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the dark green line in any view
21:35:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. the line in the front and back of the vehicle
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22:18:53 <__ln__> Bjarni: There has been some recent speculation here that OpenTTD has existed for MacOS classic, but that's definitely not true, right?
22:19:06 <Swissfan91> which colours can I NOT use in the win palette?
22:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you can use all colours, but they may have effects you don't want
22:22:07 <Elukka> use everything labeled normal
22:22:13 <Elukka> and company colors if you want company colors
22:22:33 <Swissfan91> as I'm drawing buildings.. I must still avoid the company colours then?
22:23:40 <planetmaker> depends on the intended effect(s)
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22:26:15 <planetmaker> allow to specify colour
22:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> afair company colours are just normal colours unless you give a flag to recolour it
22:27:25 <Elukka> hmm this coach looks so boring when it's grey
22:27:32 <Elukka> i guess it'll look more interesting mixed in with other colors
22:28:17 <Bjarni> <__ln__> Bjarni: There has been some recent speculation here that OpenTTD has existed for MacOS classic, but that's definitely not true, right? <-- "oru-dge" (highlight avoidance) once looked at it but the last I heard was that he had bought the compiler CD and he was unsure if he really wanted to do it.
22:28:26 <planetmaker> I don't think so, Eddi|zuHause. At least I don't see such flag anywhere
22:29:09 <__ln__> Ammler: 01:28 <@Bjarni> <__ln__> Bjarni: There has been some recent speculation here that OpenTTD has existed for MacOS classic, but that's definitely not true, right? <-- "oru-dge" (highlight avoidance) once looked at it but the last I heard was that he had bought the compiler CD and he was unsure if he really wanted to do it.
22:29:37 <Bjarni> I never even considered trying to port OpenTTD to classic. OSX can use the makefile. Classic can't, which means it would be a huge amount of work, both to make in the first place and then maintain
22:30:17 <Swissfan91> unfortunately, the palette I have doesn't really resemble the one on that wiki page. I have the tiny one.
22:30:46 <__ln__> And only a very limited set of classic-capable macs are powerful enough to run it anyway.
22:31:21 <Bjarni> G4 Quicksilver can, but then again you can just install OSX 10.4 on it
22:32:00 <Bjarni> honestly I don't care for classic anymore
22:33:04 <Bjarni> well in a way I do, but as an extra like UAE is extra to relive the Amiga days
22:33:28 <Bjarni> nobody really use classic today without also having OSX or windows
22:34:09 * Bjarni imagines somebody starting to search for a classic user in Mexico just to disproof that statement
22:35:08 <Bjarni> I'm not even sure if classic has a browser, which is able to download the game. SF scripts could fail on such old browsers
22:35:20 <Bjarni> I think it was explorer 5 and netscape 3 or something like that
22:37:09 <Bjarni> the iMac had a 233 MHz G3
22:37:32 <Bjarni> I think it could run OSX 10.2, but not 10.3
22:39:48 <Bjarni> I remember I knew somebody who had that one.... in 1999
22:40:25 <Bjarni> (if it is the one I'm thinking of)
22:47:41 <Elukka> Eddi|ZuHause: what do you think?
22:47:47 <Bjarni> CBS news states that Steve Jobs has died and now they say sorry, it was a mistake. He is alive
22:48:22 <Bjarni> how can anybody state publicly that a famous person is dead when they aren't?
22:48:39 <Bjarni> did somebody shortsell Apple stocks or something?
22:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it's investigative journalism 2.0
22:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> somebody picks up a random twitter message and distributes it as news
22:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> fact checking is "outsourced" :)
22:50:06 <Elukka> otherwise someone else might get the scoop first!
22:50:08 <pjpe> the news does that all the time
22:50:15 <Bjarni> A TV channel in Denmark wrote on their homepage that the prime minister had set a date for the next election.... the problem was that he didn't
22:50:23 <Bjarni> now he has.... on a different date
22:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, all the www.is<famousperson>deadyet.com websites are there for a reason :p
22:50:53 <pjpe> a decent amount just seem to be started by someone on twitter
22:51:01 <__ln__> one variant of that is that a reporter creates an "article" (i.e. a list of quotes) based on user comments of some previous article.
22:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Karl Ranseier is dead...
22:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> who is rick games?
22:52:39 <pjpe> popular musician from the 80's
22:53:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "Karl Ranseier is dead" was a recurring joke in the german version of "Saturday Night Live"
22:53:20 <Bjarni> can you really be named "Games" as last name?
22:53:20 <pjpe> there was a german version?
22:53:23 <Elukka> bjarni: elvis lives in NASA's nuclear moonbase
22:53:46 <Bjarni> that would make you able to call your son "Mario Games"
22:53:56 <pjpe> you can call children anything you want
22:54:05 <Eddi|zuHause> where they then read a made up obituary like "the least successful journalist in the world died while trying to write an article about journalism"
22:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: is that next to hitler's moon base?
22:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: it was pretty popular back then
22:54:57 <Bjarni> pjpe: no. It's not allowed to call boys "Christophpher". Some woman got really upset about that a few years ago :p
22:55:00 <Elukka> no, hitler is also on the moon
22:55:12 <DorpsGek> __ln__: I have not seen hitler.
22:55:34 <Elukka> it is quite well known
22:55:35 <pjpe> frank zappa called his children
22:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> germany used to have quite strict laws about what you may name a child
22:56:09 <pjpe> moon unit zappa, dweezil zappa, ahmet zappa and diva zappa
22:56:11 <pjpe> and these are real names
22:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know if they have been loosened a bit
22:56:33 <pjpe> if you wanted to call your child fuckshitpisscunt you probably could
22:56:38 <pjpe> might be considered child abuse
22:57:10 <Elukka> diva zappa's full name is diva thin muffin pigeen zappa
22:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "Wollen Sie ihr Kind wirklich Claire nennen, Frau Grube?"
22:58:33 <Bjarni> "Claire Grube"... what am I missing here?
22:58:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: "Klärgrube" is a sewer treatment plant
22:59:26 <pjpe> can you legally change your name in germany
22:59:33 <pjpe> or are you stuck with it forever
22:59:45 <Elukka> udo kier is the best actor at describing evil plans
22:59:52 <Bjarni> you can always marry to get a new one :P
23:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: dunno, never knew anybody who did that. but you can choose an "artist name"
23:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it will be written into your ID card as legal name
23:00:45 <pjpe> if i wanted to i could go down to the courthouse and become
23:00:55 <pjpe> or anything i so desire!
23:01:03 <Bjarni> Denmark allows namechange and as a result some voodoo bogus people get paid to tell people what they should call themselves to fit with their stars
23:01:11 <Bjarni> and it's always something silly they come up with
23:01:16 <pjpe> i wonder if i'd keep my old name on my second passport though
23:01:31 <Bjarni> and people change their names to increase the chance of winning the lotto or something
23:02:16 <__ln__> "Danger Powers?" - "No, no, Danger is my middle name."
23:02:22 <Bjarni> pjpe: are you allowed to change your name to Maria?
23:03:36 <Bjarni> some guy in the midwest changed his name to Santa Claus and demanded all the mail sent to his name. US postal service refused because the address is "North Pole", not his state
23:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the german law says your primrary surname must indicate your gender
23:04:26 <Bjarni> Picasso was also named Maria
23:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so "Maria" can only be a secondary name (that actually is quite popular)
23:04:33 <pjpe> i bet it says you have to separate your trash in to different bins too
23:04:37 <pjpe> and drive on the right side of the road
23:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think separating trash is an actual law :p
23:05:19 <pjpe> i thought you could get fined for not recycling properly
23:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can get fined if there is unrecycleable stuff in the recycle bin
23:05:56 <Bjarni> Some guy I know was outside at 4 am and saw the garbage truck and the guys collecting. They put all the trash together in the truck... so much for sorting your garbage
23:06:13 <Bjarni> he got upset that they did that after he spent time sorting
23:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but nothing forbids you from throwing everything in the "normal" bin
23:06:28 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: did you see the sprite? :P
23:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: yes, not entire sure about it yet
23:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: something else, i recommended to oberhümer to include the template length you based your sprites on in the filename, you should do that, too
23:07:31 <Elukka> might do some freight car in the meantime to see if something occurs to me
23:07:38 <Elukka> well that's easy enough
23:09:40 <planetmaker> that's actually a _very_ helpful suggestion when coding :-)
23:10:17 <Elukka> that's how it looks like green - of course it's not the exact right coach for that but close enough to see how green coaches would look like
23:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: some wagons should probably get a braker's cabin at the end
23:16:36 <Elukka> right now i'm concerned with getting the general look and detailing right as i can always make different variations later
23:16:47 <Elukka> the other angles i just do by copypasting and then adjusting the lighting to fit
23:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the roof should get slightly brown-ish grey
23:24:56 <Elukka> i think they're grey, they just get sooty easily from all the steam
23:25:09 <Elukka> or is that just to differentiate it a bit from the grey walls?
23:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> according to the PDF, colour was brown-ish grey at first, and later nearly white
23:28:41 <Elukka> unfortunately my german is almost nonexistent :D
23:28:49 <Elukka> do you think the roof brightness is about right?
23:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 4th class compartment wagons appeared pretty late
23:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> because originally the 3-axle compartment wagons were intended for express usage, which usually didn't have 4th class.
23:31:25 <Elukka> then almost white sounds more appropriate than brownish grey, no?
23:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> 3rd class is wooden benches, and 4th class originallly no benches at all, later benches along the wall
23:35:19 <Eddi|zuHause> in DRG times, 4th class was abolished
23:37:50 <Elukka> green looks weird with the almost white roof, grey looks better with it
23:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hm looks strange. and the view on the right might be too narrow
23:47:36 <Elukka> i think the roof might actually look better were it brownish
23:49:38 <Elukka> would add some much needed color
23:49:47 <Elukka> from an aesthetic standpoint, dunno about accuracy
23:56:15 <Elukka> on the right view.. i was thinking it would overlap if it were wider
23:56:41 <Elukka> it's 1px off the dark green line on the right side
continue to next day ⏵
