IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-09
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02:52:06 <Hinrik> when determining the payment for cargo, is it the actual map distance between industries which matters, or just the distance traveled?
02:52:41 <planetmaker> distance between station signs
02:53:22 <Hinrik> so, if I had a coal mine and power station in close proximity, it would actually make sense to have the train take a long zig-zag route to get more money?
02:53:41 <Hinrik> oh, wait, between stations, ah
03:42:47 <Hinrik> hm, it seems to be pretty much impossible to build an intercontinental airport where it might be useful
03:43:37 <Hinrik> even though the coverage area doesn't reach the town, they still refuse
03:45:00 <Hinrik> and this is next to where the transport rating is 'Good'
03:46:40 <Pinkbeast> Isn't that "total airports per town"?
03:47:33 <pjpe> have a shuttle bus to get to the airport
03:54:31 <Hinrik> ah, it was North Haverbrook
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04:59:38 <George> can this be a procedure?
05:00:41 <George> all this huge code is only used to define 2 values (in 7D 00 and 7D 01) for future calculation
05:04:48 <George> I need it for several tiles, so want not to copypaste it
05:17:43 <Pikka> all of owen's servers are so slow for me today, but I don't see why it's not possible
05:20:13 <George> so the only requrement is to return 8xxx value?
05:20:39 <George> And is it ok that this procedure is not for CB, but for drawing graphics?
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09:13:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22910 /trunk/ (Makefile.bundle.in Makefile.src.in src/video/sdl_v.cpp): -Fix [FS#4617]: icon would (almost) never be shown for SDL builds
09:21:50 <Hirundo> George: I have not studied your code in detail, but in general a procedure calls can consist of as many action2s as you'd want as long as the chain terminates with a callback result
09:22:03 <Hirundo> you can even do nested procedure calls if you wish
09:23:49 <George> Then I'll make a topic on the tt-forums for that case. I'm going to make a big procedure and I want some help. Also I hope my example could be useful for future GRF coding (as example)
09:30:47 <Hirundo> you can do procedure calls in the gfx callback also, but you can't return a graphics result directly from there
09:31:17 <Hirundo> if you do that, the procedure call returns with 0xFFFF in ottd/new ttdpatch, or some undefined value in old ttdpatch
10:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say "file not found", but that's probably too much of an in-joke ;)
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10:37:19 <planetmaker> hm... I nearly banned you for posting strange links without comment and context, appe
10:37:27 <planetmaker> be lucky that I saw your nick before
10:43:06 <appe> it's a track, and i didnt really realize the strangeness of the url :)
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13:18:51 <PeanutHorst> i would like to know if an issue i am having is a bug or a feature.
13:19:08 <PeanutHorst> basically, there are railway (conventional) carriages, but no locomotives.
13:19:14 <PeanutHorst> steps to reproduce: start a game in 2100.
13:19:28 <Yexo> you need to build electric engines
13:19:32 <Yexo> or monorail / maglev even
13:19:45 <Yexo> hold you mouse down while clicking on the "build railway" button in the toolbar to see a list of railtypes
13:19:48 <PeanutHorst> uh, i do not have electric locomotives.
13:19:49 <Rubidium> the wagons work on all railtypes, the engines don't
13:19:50 <PeanutHorst> that is the problem
13:20:00 <Yexo> alternatively you can enable the "engines never expire" option in the game settings
13:20:04 <PeanutHorst> only monorail and maglev
13:20:28 <Yexo> that depends on the climate, there are no electric engines in arctic and tropic by default
13:21:55 <PeanutHorst> i'm playing arctic.
13:22:13 <PeanutHorst> bugger me, this is ridiculous... oh well, maglev time! it's the future, and all ._.
13:22:34 <Yexo> <Yexo> alternatively you can enable the "engines never expire" option in the game settings <- there is your solution if you want to keep playing with normal rail engines
13:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can load NewGRFs which change this
13:22:51 <PeanutHorst> ah, i'm playing bare atm as i'm hosting a game multi over the internet
13:22:52 <Yexo> you might need to type "resetengines" in the console after changing that setting to fix your savegame
13:22:57 <PeanutHorst> but yes, i'll play with newgrfs a bit later
13:23:31 <PeanutHorst> Yexo: nah, i'll enjoy the schwing factor of the chimaera :D but i'll note that fix for next time, and also hover here. thanks kindly!
14:10:54 <Belugas> hi guys :) and thanks for the title, a bit too much but still ;)
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15:02:28 <PeanutHorst> hey, has anyone ever tried getting openttd to work on classic mac os?
15:03:07 <PeanutHorst> the thought's just occurred to me that it might be possible with a lot of patience, and i'll probably try at some point (i'm in an insane mood), but I just wanted to know if anyone else was my kind of crazy and had tried.
15:03:56 <Rubidium> Ammler: are you sure?
15:04:41 <PeanutHorst> Ammler: i'm guessing a lot's changed since then :p
15:04:54 <PeanutHorst> but iot's a start!
15:05:24 <Ammler> Rubidium: no, just guessing, time as Bjarni made the bins
15:05:51 <Rubidium> then you're guessing quite wrong
15:06:30 <PeanutHorst> peter1138: yeah, os 8.6 and 9
15:06:42 <PeanutHorst> i'm not really expecting to compile for system 7 on a 68k
15:06:50 <PeanutHorst> but being able to play on my power mac might be a nice diversion
15:07:07 <__ln__> i STRONGLY doubt ottd ever worked on MacOS classic
15:07:47 <PeanutHorst> ah, Ammler, i meant os 9, hence "classic"
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15:07:58 <PeanutHorst> i know os x is still supported, it's too unixish to not be :p
15:08:00 <Rubidium> 0.1.4 has only MacOSX binaries; nobody ever made any earlier binaries AFAIK
15:08:14 <Rubidium> unless you're talking about MorphOS and such
15:08:28 <PeanutHorst> oooh, morphos >:3
15:09:25 <__ln__> i wonder if the latest Macs with classic are even powerful enough to run OTTD, even if someone managed to compile it.
15:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> PeanutHorst: there are lots of things not-unix-y enough to make it a real trouble to support OS X
15:11:11 <peter1138> __ln__, power mac g4 should be able to cope
15:14:40 <PeanutHorst> __ln__: if a DOS machine can cope...
15:15:07 <PeanutHorst> what's the average on that, a 486dx2?
15:15:16 <PeanutHorst> let's be generous and say openttd would want a pentium 166 mmx
15:15:26 <peter1138> openttd is probably a bit more demanding that ttd was...
15:15:41 <PeanutHorst> yes, but if it still targets DOS as more than a "look, we can target DOS"
15:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i ran original transport tycoon on a 386 DX 25
15:15:47 <__ln__> PeanutHorst: OTTD will definitely not run on a 486dx
15:15:49 <PeanutHorst> it has some expectations about what a DOS machine is
15:15:52 <peter1138> PeanutHorst, it doesn't :)
15:15:58 <Eddi|zuHause> although it significantly slowed down with more than 5 trains :p
15:16:07 <PeanutHorst> peter1138: so it targets DOS for show then? :P
15:16:26 <peter1138> i don't know if it even works...
15:16:46 <__ln__> besides, who says you can't install DOS on a brand new Core i7?
15:17:02 <PeanutHorst> i had a 486dx4 here that I was thinking of compiling OpenTTD for, just to see if it would be possible to enjoy :p
15:17:26 <Rubidium> it works besides networking
15:17:30 <PeanutHorst> __ln__: uh, common sense, given that most new computers don't even really use a proper BIOS
15:17:42 <Rubidium> on computers where allegro supports the hardware
15:17:44 <PeanutHorst> Rubidium: shame, what's needed to get networking going under DOS?
15:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> DX4? did such a thing exist?
15:17:57 <PeanutHorst> Eddi|zuHause: yes, but it was really a 3x multi
15:18:10 <PeanutHorst> hence you have 3.3v part intel dx4-100
15:18:19 <Rubidium> PeanutHorst: some library, don't know which one exactly
15:18:22 <PeanutHorst> Eddi|zuHause: ... oh no you didn't. DX2 is 66
15:18:36 <Rubidium> PeanutHorst: and probably quite a number of other changes
15:18:45 <PeanutHorst> SX is non-floating point
15:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then my impression is wrong
15:19:08 <peter1138> how could you not know about 20 year old obsolete processors? :p
15:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i had an SX 25 laptop
15:19:15 <PeanutHorst> peter1138: he's from germany
15:19:19 <PeanutHorst> they're only state of the art there
15:19:22 <PeanutHorst> i know, i'm german ;)
15:19:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it should still work, but the battery is dead
15:19:54 * peter1138 had a DX2 66 that was actually an overclocked 50
15:20:06 <peter1138> found that out a bit late to complain :p
15:20:13 <PeanutHorst> peter1138: hahaha what
15:20:35 <PeanutHorst> i'm hoping with adequate cooling it might be possible to configure a DX4-100 to run at 40 x3, or 120
15:20:43 <PeanutHorst> just give it a bit of a bootst
15:20:52 <peter1138> well, there were official DX4-120s
15:20:58 <PeanutHorst> back in those days, extra MHz actually meant something
15:21:15 <peter1138> 2.4 -> 3.0 is rather noticable for me
15:21:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i took the processor with the lowest speed
15:21:39 <PeanutHorst> peter1138: not intel, not - there was Am486, and there was Cyrix 5x86-133 (internally 4x, configured as 2x on the mobo, 33MHz bus)
15:21:43 <__ln__> peter1138: overclocked a q6600?
15:22:24 <peter1138> PeanutHorst, might've been an amd, yeah, still it was officially a dx4 120
15:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i had a Cyrix 6x86-200 (i think)
15:22:35 <__ln__> i tried the same, but at least with that bios version, lost the speedstep functionality as a consequence, so it wasn't an option.
15:22:45 <peter1138> probably slower than than intel dx4 100 though, heh
15:22:47 <PeanutHorst> Eddi|zuHause: that's a socket 5 processor
15:22:51 <PeanutHorst> or a socket 7, perhaps
15:22:52 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, they did that :)
15:23:30 <peter1138> __ln__, i only get 66% and 100% anyway
15:23:38 <peter1138> 1.6/2.4 (or 2.0/3.0)
15:25:04 <peter1138> i tend to set it to 3.0 anyway
15:25:18 <peter1138> cos linux is a bit dumb and doesn't always ramp it up when it should
15:25:53 <peter1138> some games stay stuck at 2.0, but they run much faster when 3.0 is used
15:26:23 <__ln__> are you using the intel boxed cooler or something bigger?
15:26:23 <peter1138> something to do with waiting briefly for the gpu, i blieve
15:26:39 <peter1138> freezer pro 7 or something like that
15:26:50 <peter1138> i never tried it with the stock cooler
15:27:05 <peter1138> i never tried more than 3 either
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15:28:12 <kbrooks> I tried pressing ctrl+alt+c
15:28:26 <peter1138> did your computer explode?
15:28:30 <kbrooks> and the cheat window did not load.
15:29:47 <kbrooks> should i try latest stable and see?
15:30:37 <peter1138> did you try ctrl-alt-shift-c
15:30:45 <peter1138> or maybe that wasn't the alternative combination
15:31:22 <Yexo> ctrl-alt-win-c is the alternative one
15:31:41 <peter1138> (and, of course, are you in a single player game, not networked...)
15:31:54 <kbrooks> thx peeter, and im in single
15:34:14 <confound> misread that as "I'm single" and I was wondering when this became a pickup spot
15:36:50 <kbrooks> confound, i misread you as peter1138
15:37:12 <confound> we do look very similar
15:38:30 <Elukka> confound this confusion!
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15:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> how can you mix up confound with peter1138? they have totally different colours :p
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15:41:47 <Elukka> i occasionally mix up people whose nicks start with "El..." with myself
15:41:57 <Elukka> and i'm like "What, I didn't say tha- Oh."
15:47:24 <Elukka> nobody would happen to know a place to go to for reference pics and such of prussian wagons?
15:47:36 <Elukka> best i can think of is the catalogs of model rail companies
15:47:54 <Elukka> which while reasonably accurate are usually pretty limited
15:56:58 <Elukka> ah, heh, oberhümer posted some nice pics
15:59:01 <kbrooks> Eddi|zuHause, similiar writing style it seemed
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17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22911 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt russian.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by ElNounch
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 48 changes by Peymanpn
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by akasoft
17:46:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22912 /trunk/src/ai/ai_scanner.cpp: -Fix [FS#4753]: another attempt at fixing a related crash (can't reproduce it though)
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18:13:40 <__ln__> hmm.. if i'm running a 1.1.2 server, can i downgrade it to 1.1.1 and load the saved game?
18:14:50 <Yexo> yes (why would you want to do that?)
18:16:00 <__ln__> it's plan B if a friend fails to compile/acquire 1.1.2 for his distro
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18:23:14 <V453000> does FIRS influence the growth of towns anyhow?
18:23:28 <V453000> (I dont think it does but I rather ask)
18:26:25 <Alberth> perhaps indirectly (as in making it more difficult to produce goods needed by towns)?
18:26:50 <V453000> hmm, but do towns _need_ goods?
18:27:33 <Alberth> (I am however quite sure you are much better up-to-date with town growth conditions ;) )
18:28:00 <Alberth> depends on climate afaik
18:28:26 <Alberth> (and perhaps not exactly 'goods')
18:29:43 <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS gives Goods the TE_WATER flag, so they are needed in desert
18:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> (it will say that in the town window)
18:31:29 <planetmaker> __ln__: 1.1.3-RC1 should work (again) as static... he could just download and unzip
18:33:44 <kbrooks> so when i click on go to in the vehicle window and click on a sation it doesn't wwork properlyy
18:34:13 <__ln__> planetmaker: i think he found some way, at least he joined the server. :) but thanks
18:34:23 <Elukka> in my experience cities grow almost uncontrollably fast even with the slowest setting and with only passenger service
18:34:52 <Elukka> though that could be cargodist's indirect doing
18:36:59 <Alberth> kbrooks: 'does not work properly' is not something we understand
18:37:22 <kbrooks> when i click on the station it does noot show in the orders
18:37:36 <Alberth> wrong type of station?
18:37:56 <Alberth> (bus to train station, bus to lorry station, truck to bus station?
18:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "Paypal tries to enforce USA's Cuba embargo onto german companies and their customers"
18:40:14 <Alberth> what else would you expect from a True Americal Company?
18:40:56 <Rubidium> true? In what sense?
18:41:31 <Alberth> in being American, of course
18:42:19 <Rubidium> but why am I paying a Luxembourgian company?
18:43:07 <z-MaTRiX> because its cool to play an exotic company
18:43:12 <Alberth> or do you know an american company that ignores what the american politicians say, for their outside America clients?
18:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> luxemburg doesn't even have a shore :p
18:44:43 <z-MaTRiX> you will make a bank account in switzerland
18:44:47 <Rubidium> e.g. google; I doubt the American politicians are fine with the filtering for China etc.
18:46:07 <z-MaTRiX> who needs filtering?
18:46:17 <z-MaTRiX> į can do my own blacklist for adservers
18:46:31 <Alberth> but the Chinese people suffer the filter, not the american people, so I doubt politicians care much
18:47:05 <Alberth> z-MaTRiX: filter your browser program away :)
18:47:55 <z-MaTRiX> there are other means getting one
18:48:12 <z-MaTRiX> and there are proxies
18:49:01 <Yexo> <Alberth> (bus to train station, bus to lorry station, truck to bus station? <- I've been confused by that case myself, I think we should show an error message
18:49:08 <Yexo> especially truck/bus can be confusing
18:50:20 * Alberth considers that a good idea
18:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> we already have an error message for articulated bus to bus terminal, right?
18:55:39 <__ln__> i wish to register a complaint
18:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you know where those go
18:56:54 <__ln__> somebody has changed the default signal to something that does not stop the trains
18:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe you changed signals while trains were nearby?
18:58:42 <planetmaker> signals always were meant just as art-deco
19:33:09 <Elukka> paypal has a history of doing everything the american government thinks to ask of them
19:33:42 <Elukka> meanwhile the government does everything the corporations think to ask of them, they have a very understanding relationship :P
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20:28:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22913 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [OSX]: make splash work again and make it work without needing to bundle it first
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20:52:59 <b_jonas> I've set up a game deliberately easy, that is, no competitors and lots of money and lots of industries and towns
20:53:21 <b_jonas> strangely, as I know how the game works, I can enjoy that mode too
20:53:25 <b_jonas> I didn't think I would
20:54:01 <b_jonas> I'll have to upgrade my openttd now
20:54:16 <Elukka> my challenge in the game is "how do i get all these people/this cargo this city/industry produces to where they want to go"
20:54:37 <b_jonas> I currently have 1.1.1. Should I upgrade to 1.1.2, or directly to 1.1.3-RC1 instead?
20:54:40 <Elukka> with cargo destinations passengers are particularly interesting
20:55:04 <b_jonas> however, the game says that houses accept "unknown cargo"
20:55:14 <b_jonas> besides passengers and mail and goods
20:56:24 <b_jonas> hmm, where do I download the RC?
21:02:26 <Yexo> <b_jonas> however, the game says that houses accept "unknown cargo" <- most likely cause: you removed newgrfs from a running game
21:02:43 <Yexo> if you didn't change the newgrf config, please upload your savegame somewhere so we can figure out where the bug is
21:03:09 <planetmaker> some japanese(?) newgrf may cause that (or similar), iirc. Even without newgrf addremove
21:03:11 <b_jonas> Yexo: I don't think I have removed after starting the game
21:03:19 <b_jonas> planetmaker: yes, I'm using some japanese
21:03:35 <b_jonas> I can upload the savegame,
21:03:52 <Yexo> nah, if planetmaker already knows it's a bug in some japanese grf it's no use
21:03:54 <b_jonas> but first I'll upgrade openttd and opengfx
21:05:36 <b_jonas> I'm also learning to use PBS exclusively in this game
21:06:57 <b_jonas> a large part of the wiki still explains how to make efficient junctions with pre-signals, much of which is obsolate because you can do more efficient with much simpler junctions using pbs
21:07:11 <planetmaker> there's nothing wrong with pre-signals
21:07:30 <planetmaker> path signals are easier to handle
21:07:47 <Elukka> PBS is more intuitive, easier and more forgiving
21:07:49 <b_jonas> and it seems there are very few things you can do with block and presignals but can't do with path signals
21:08:04 <Elukka> though you want to be really careful with that safe waiting position thing
21:08:06 <planetmaker> load balancing ;-)
21:08:30 <Elukka> otherwise it'll come back and bite you in the ass as your network grows
21:08:36 <b_jonas> yep, I got some trains stuck by design errors
21:08:54 <b_jonas> and from misclicking and not noticing signals facing the wrong way
21:10:35 <b_jonas> I've got lucky with a steel mill with three iron ore mines very close, producing 720, 720, 360 respectively
21:10:41 <b_jonas> and there's also a factory close
21:10:58 <b_jonas> (plus a farm and a smaller iron ore mine)
21:11:22 <b_jonas> so now I had to design an efficient track to transport all the goods to a faraway city
21:12:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22914 /trunk/src/saveload/order_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#4716]: old TTO/TTD savegames could get non-stop via orders upon savegame loading, even when those orders did not exist back then. This 'conversion' feature is something for TTDPatch and old OpenTTD savegames
21:12:58 <b_jonas> in this game I'm using newgrfs that don't change the game mechanics much but add new graphics
21:13:12 <b_jonas> new stations and houses, but same vehicles and industries
21:16:18 <b_jonas> ok, game and opengfx upgraded
21:16:51 <b_jonas> yep, "invalid cargo" still there
21:17:14 <planetmaker> maybe bug them to release an update with just the cargo issue fixed
21:17:28 <planetmaker> though you can safely ignore that cargo. No harm in that particular case
21:17:56 <b_jonas> and yes, it's probably the Japanese set, because according to the land query tool, only Japanese houses seem to accept it, not the Swedish houses
21:19:55 <b_jonas> what bothers me is still how transparency is handled
21:20:09 <b_jonas> no setting I can find hides the smoke of power stations
21:20:21 <b_jonas> and that smoke is large and distracting if you want to see what's behind
21:21:14 <b_jonas> also, I think hiding the fences around railway tracks should be a separate button on the transparency toolbar, not just a part of "full detail"
21:21:30 <b_jonas> because those fances are not only a performance thing, sometimes they're distracting
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21:22:18 <b_jonas> but maybe instead it's the whole full detail that should be a button on the toolbar
21:22:38 <b_jonas> remind me what effect it has besides hiding fences around rail and trees from town roads?
21:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there was also something with road reconstruction graphics
21:25:09 <b_jonas> I might have been a bit too eager while terraforming this mountain here
21:25:26 <b_jonas> maybe I should have planned the tracks first and then flatten only where needed
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21:26:44 <b_jonas> I don't think I ever ran so many trains on the same route. 12 trains.
21:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: not entirely sure r22914 is the right thing to do...
21:27:54 <Bjarni> I have used way more than 12 on a line
21:27:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r22915 /trunk/src/ (aircraft.h aircraft_cmd.cpp saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp): -Fix (r22743): TTO savegames with any aircraft not in an hangar caused crashes during load
21:28:21 <Bjarni> doesn't sound impressive unless you tell they have 40 cars each or something
21:29:49 <Bjarni> 144 cars in total.... not that extreme
21:30:06 <Bjarni> though 12 cars is a good size with the right engine
21:30:09 <b_jonas> probably. but I still think it's the highest I've got
21:30:24 <b_jonas> engine is asiastar now
21:30:56 <Bjarni> I once tried 100 cars or something like that.... looks impressive, but it performs horribly, even with enough engines
21:31:08 <b_jonas> let me check how many I have in the ttdpach game for the sawmill, but I think it was less
21:32:05 <Bjarni> having a whole lot of trains on a line isn't a goal on it's own
21:32:57 <b_jonas> yes, the goal is to transport as much of the 720+720+360 iron and the steel and goods as possible
21:33:15 <b_jonas> and the goods to far away
21:34:01 <Elukka> note that the more you transport and the faster your vehicles go, the more likely the production increases
21:34:18 <Elukka> you always want to have at least one vehicle loading at an industry station
21:34:39 * Bjarni imagines somebody thinking the number of trains as an important factor and makes a fleet of trains with just one car each
21:34:45 <b_jonas> I mean, I could add more trains but it would get worse
21:35:24 <b_jonas> more smaller trains can be important if you transport long distance and want higher rating
21:37:17 <Elukka> i don't think there's technically any difference whether it's just 2 trains
21:37:22 <b_jonas> but I think once I upgrade this to maglev, these 12 trains should give a consistent 100% rating
21:37:31 <Elukka> as long as the second hasn't finished loading before the first returns
21:37:56 <Elukka> but it's not terribly practical to make overlong trains!
21:38:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i think 15 tiles was my longest
21:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> with slightly shortened wagons
21:39:16 <b_jonas> I might be able to add a few more trains here, but first I'd like to see that they consistently don't get stuck at either station
21:39:37 <Elukka> if your station is properly designed they won't ;)
21:39:49 <b_jonas> but it's probably better to just wait for maglev (or upgrade to monorail now)
21:40:02 <b_jonas> I _think_ it's properly designed, but I'm not sure
21:41:34 <b_jonas> the factory station is easy because it's in open space, but the city station is a bit squeezed both because it has to be close to the city to accept goods and because there's another small town close
21:42:05 <b_jonas> that small town is still angry at me for terraforming so I can't bulldoze it down yet
21:42:30 <b_jonas> but I was careful and knew this so I have a small passenger station in it so the rating eventually rises
21:43:16 <b_jonas> I think I'm at permanent war with only two towns
21:46:44 <b_jonas> which stations count for the slow increase/decrease of authority ratings? only ones in the inner city area, any within the town's authority, or any that'd be named from that town?
21:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> all with the city's name in it
21:54:56 <Elukka> or plant trees, which is a tad silly :D
21:55:15 <b_jonas> yes, I often try planting trees
21:55:42 <b_jonas> it can help when I'm just a bit below, but when rating is very low and town is already surrounded by trees then it's hard to get rating back that way
21:56:25 * Eddi|zuHause tries to not tell about the tree cheat right now
21:56:27 <b_jonas> I haven't tried bribing yet, but apparently when your rating is very bad then an unsuccessful bribe is better than a successful one
21:56:39 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: I know, destroy all the trees, rebuild trees
21:57:40 <b_jonas> in theory if you wait for 14 years you get your rating back just for doing nothing
21:57:45 <b_jonas> that also doesn't seem to work well for me
21:58:10 <b_jonas> dunno, councils just don't behave for me like it's described in the wiki
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21:58:36 <Bjarni> Oh dear.... just when I thought politicians couldn't get any lower they still find a way to get lower: physical assault. Some guy was in a panel debate and all he did was talking about room decorations. Some other politician asked him to be serious or be replaced by another party member and this was replied by a hand flying into his head
22:00:09 <Bjarni> the "best" part is: his son states that he gets like that once in a while and it becomes impossible to reach him
22:01:33 <Bjarni> why are the politicians such freaks and/or idiots?
22:02:17 <b_jonas> plus, I'd still like an easier way in the interface to add a train to a group
22:19:39 <csaba> the oil tankers cost like $8 million a piece, any idea why?
22:23:31 <Elukka> csaba: oil tankers as in ships or train cars, in vanilla or a grf set?
22:25:15 <planetmaker> inflation. Different currency. cost newgrf
22:34:02 <b_jonas> csaba: how much does the best train cost in the same game?
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23:14:10 <csaba> the best train is around 200K
23:14:35 <csaba> oil tankers as in ships
23:14:48 <csaba> the ships cost several millions to build, no idea why...
23:15:38 <V453000> because ships are retarded
23:17:30 <pjpe> grfs aren't always well balanced
23:17:43 <pjpe> the dutch tram set has trams that only fit like 50 passengers max
23:17:52 <pjpe> like every other tram set has the real life number of 100+
23:18:44 <Bjarni> It's really easy to make completely unbalanced and unrealistic grf files
23:18:49 <Elukka> i like long vehicles for road vehicle balancing
23:18:59 <Elukka> makes them actually useful, especially when coupled with a high running costs train set
23:19:01 <Bjarni> it's tough to make well balanced ones though
23:19:14 <Elukka> although internally lv has bizarre balance decisions
23:19:43 <Elukka> like, some buses have $1000/month maintenance and some marginally faster bus is $7000/month and is obviously never worth it
23:22:06 <Bjarni> sometimes real life is like that
23:22:24 <Bjarni> ok, it could be a bit extreme
23:24:03 <b_jonas> real life _is_ like that
23:24:31 <Bjarni> I have one real life example. In 1952 a Danish locomotive factory sold a 750 hp diesel locomotive design. One railroad asked for a version without turbocharger and they got that.
23:24:46 <Bjarni> the problem is.... without turbocharger it only had 500 hp
23:24:56 <Bjarni> and it used more diesel for each hp
23:24:56 <b_jonas> the $7000/month one is bought because the owner of the factory is the cousin of the town mayor, or a blonde that went to bed with him
23:25:14 <Elukka> i think lv is meant to have intracity and intercity buses
23:25:24 <Elukka> the former have more capacity but are slow, the latter have less capacity but are faster
23:25:33 <Elukka> it's just the intercity buses are so expensive to run they're useless
23:26:05 <pjpe> why on earth did they ask for that
23:26:24 <Bjarni> they didn't want to maintain a turbocharger
23:26:27 <pjpe> is long vehicles the one that has like 1000 vehicles
23:26:31 <pjpe> and some of them from real life
23:26:37 <pjpe> like the model t and mercedes tour busses
23:27:06 <pjpe> that one always kinds of rubs me the wrong way
23:27:19 <Elukka> it doesn't have terribly many though so i dunno
23:27:59 <Elukka> does it look like that?
23:28:11 <pjpe> with the weird futuristic one in the top left
23:28:16 <Elukka> i've used it for forever
23:28:28 <pjpe> these sets should really come with condensed versions
23:29:00 <Elukka> i think the modern vehicles are maybe a bit too big but i like the graphics and it's the only road vehicle set i know of where the trucks have any use
23:30:38 <Elukka> definitely my favorite road vehicle grf
23:35:28 <Bjarni> because of the vehicle stats or because of the graphics?
23:35:43 <Bjarni> for all we know you could be staring at the uncut sprites all the time :p
23:38:12 <Elukka> i use the cut version not because i dislike looking at boobs but i feel it's a bit out of place :P
23:39:16 <planetmaker> pjpe: make a list of which vehicles make up the condensed version and suggest it in the resp. newgrf threads
23:40:01 <planetmaker> alternatively or additionally: you should learn to code newgrfs ;-)
23:41:34 <Elukka> ridiculously long vehicle lists like 2cc's don't make me go "hm this could use with some trimming", it makes me go "oooooh so many little pixel trains \o/"
23:41:49 <pjpe> i have no idea how 2cc is set up though
23:41:53 <pjpe> i looked through the source
23:41:59 <pjpe> and golly thats a lot more nml than i care to learn
23:42:41 <pjpe> like i like having all the vehicles it has now but sometimes it just feels like too much
23:43:05 <Elukka> i can see why one would want a set where everything has a thought out role with nothing extraneous
23:44:17 <planetmaker> 2ccTS is written in nfo
23:47:38 <Pinkbeast> I think a "real world" vehicles set is always going to have lots of spurious vehicles because of the way speed is so important in OTTD
23:48:58 <Pinkbeast> Unless you're deliberately reducing income to make a more interesting layout (and there's nothing wrong with that) you're 99% of the time going to want the most powerful and/or quick vehicles, and you'll never use (eg) a shunting locomotive
23:49:35 <planetmaker> depends :-) But you're most often right
23:50:21 <Pinkbeast> Well, you're _so often_ having capacity problems that it becomes very difficult to do anything else.
23:51:12 <valhallasw> it's mostly that shunting is irrelevant
23:51:36 <valhallasw> shunting corresponds to a hub-spoke infrastructure
23:51:55 <valhallasw> where wagons are uncoupled and recombined
23:51:59 <Pinkbeast> valhalla> I don't think it is. I mean, that's why one rarely uses shunting engines, but any low-power engine is going to see limited use however cheap it is.
23:52:16 <Pinkbeast> It's Pikka's "Deltics everywhere" problem
23:52:41 <valhallasw> well, locomotives are too cheap
23:53:02 <valhallasw> in real life, you would take some time to replace a locomotive, because of the cost
23:53:32 <valhallasw> but in general, you don't buy slow, old, locomotives
23:53:36 <Pinkbeast> I think that's more down to the essentially unlimited supply of money in the middle and late game.
23:54:12 <Pinkbeast> ... and the lack of an "autoreplace when older than n years" option, and the way that having trains of different speeds works even worse than IRL.
23:55:06 <Pinkbeast> But even if I only replaced locomotives when old, I would almost certainly (if, again, playing without an eye on reality) always pick a new and powerful locomotive at replacement time
23:55:49 <Pinkbeast> I don't see it as a problem, really - a "real world" set can have less useful vehicles in, reality fans can use them, people "just playing" can not, everyone's happy.
23:56:05 <Pinkbeast> ... except Pikka going "why do all UKRS1 games use Deltics all the time"? :-/
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23:59:09 <Bjarni> there is a serious balance issue regarding replacing vehicles compared to real life
23:59:55 <Bjarni> I mean it's not difficult for me to find real life locomotives, which are like 50 years old still running freight trains
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