IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-08
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00:00:04 <Elukka> can you link your post again? i'm not sure i can be of much help since i'm as new to this as you but i'd like to see it :D
00:01:29 <Elukka> might want to try to get more detail in
00:01:34 <Elukka> which is admittedly hard with so few pixels
00:02:16 <Swissfan91> yeah, i was struggling with detail, but I wanted the basic shape first.
00:02:45 <Swissfan91> if you look at the church I was using for inspiration, there isnt that much detail on the spire
00:03:03 <Elukka> planetmaker: i see you work on CETS too
00:03:18 <Elukka> i really hope the set doesn't lose steam (hehe) since it sounds like it'd be pretty amazing
00:03:52 <planetmaker> are you sure your church tower roof is equally sloped to both sides?
00:04:20 <Swissfan91> but it could well not bed
00:04:32 <Elukka> oh there's an entire tracking table for all vehicles :O
00:04:33 <planetmaker> the top pixel is not centred above the wall iirc
00:05:18 <planetmaker> or to me it feels like 1px(?) off
00:05:28 <Swissfan91> ah, it appears so. I really struggled with the slope. I hoped it wouldn't be too noticeable
00:05:43 <planetmaker> I don't say it's easy. I know it's not
00:07:27 <Swissfan91> I shall try and rectify that at some point
00:09:29 <planetmaker> btw: if you want to make a project where people can contribute and work on: then you must not use anything which forbids modifications in the license
00:09:45 <planetmaker> everything where modification is forbidden can be considered lost work
00:10:15 <Swissfan91> ah, I see. So my license atm means only I can do anything with them publicly?
00:10:56 <planetmaker> so... you just picked something without knowing what?
00:11:10 <planetmaker> Can you sign a piece of paper for me? I'll fill in terms later :-)
00:11:13 <pjpe> planemaker do you do any yapf
00:11:35 <Swissfan91> no, I thought that license was that people had to ask my permission before using any sprites I made.
00:11:46 <planetmaker> that's what it means
00:11:57 <planetmaker> which is imho a bullshit license as it's as good as no license
00:12:12 <planetmaker> and as such: lost work
00:12:24 <planetmaker> died upon birth as no-one can build or improve on it
00:13:07 <Swissfan91> I see what you're saying. But if I have no license, somebody could take my sprite, and just open a new set and say it is theirs?
00:14:18 <planetmaker> please read esp. the two case studies
00:14:42 <planetmaker> there are enough negative case studies, though ;-)
00:16:03 <planetmaker> and ask yourself the question: why do you want to ensure that everyone has to explicitly ask you before they may use your sprites in their own work (they'll always have to credit you with proper license)
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00:16:35 <planetmaker> what should happen to your work should you be hit by a car?
00:16:59 <planetmaker> (not that I wish that - on the contrary)
00:17:53 <Swissfan91> Ah, I think I understand.
00:17:54 <planetmaker> usually I have openttd do the pathfinding for me, though
00:18:09 <Swissfan91> "but in essence it means, and only that is important for our purpose: ALL work is copyrighted."
00:18:13 <Swissfan91> that bit, I didn't know.
00:19:43 <pjpe> and it seems like it would help with ship pathfinding
00:22:32 <planetmaker> pjpe: we have no developer who has exclusive domains...
00:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: you might want to learn how to highlight people by spelling their name properly.
00:22:55 <planetmaker> if you have suggestions, it's best to not seek for the "correct" one, but to just bring them forward
00:22:57 <Elukka> ...that would be useful, yes
00:23:23 <planetmaker> those who are interested will then see / read it
00:25:22 <planetmaker> I'm just not sure whether this should go into the suggestions or development forum
00:28:13 <Swissfan91> @planetmaker - to conclude: not mentioning a license gives me adequate protection?
00:28:40 <planetmaker> yes. But what do you need to protect?
00:28:54 <planetmaker> isn't attribution enough for that?
00:30:54 <Swissfan91> of course attribution is enough. Sorry, I am picking the wrong words. My fear was people stealing it without attribution. So protection against that. :)
00:31:29 <planetmaker> then CC-BY is enough
00:31:43 <planetmaker> which means "do what you like with it. But give credits"
00:32:07 <planetmaker> which is also the most community-friendly
00:32:11 <pjpe> people can always steal it
00:32:19 <pjpe> just whether they ethically should or not
00:32:31 <pjpe> but will people really check
00:34:04 <planetmaker> that is also not the point of the license. As that cannot be avoided anyway
00:34:20 <Swissfan91> Indeed. Thanks for your help PM :)
00:34:22 <planetmaker> But the license allows the good guys to build on it - and give credits
00:37:24 <Swissfan91> which is what we're all here for!
00:37:55 <pjpe> i'm going to steal it as soon as you work on it
00:39:00 <planetmaker> you've seen the flame wars about those?
00:39:39 <pjpe> i wonder if that new us set guy is still working
00:39:54 <pjpe> i want the damn justice league hq in my games
00:40:27 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause :D any comments on the sprite?
00:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: haven't looked at it too closely.
00:47:36 <Swissfan91> @planetmaker, if I PM you a sprite, could you take a quick look at something?
00:48:11 <Elukka> what's the procedure for getting a sprite vetted and accepted into CETS?
00:48:37 <planetmaker> Elukka: there's no formal nor established procedure.
00:48:41 <planetmaker> No sprites are coded yet.
00:48:52 <planetmaker> Best open a ticket for that vehicle and attach your sprites
00:49:20 <planetmaker> Swissfan91: dunno? What about forums?
00:49:37 <Swissfan91> I meant a PM on the forums :)
00:50:00 <Elukka> i suppose i would need some sort of membership to add a ticket?
00:50:25 <planetmaker> only thing required is registration at the devzone
00:52:28 <planetmaker> Swissfan91: give it a try ;-)
00:52:37 <planetmaker> asking to ask sucks and sucks time pointlessly
00:52:54 <Elukka> is the vehicle list a comprehensive one?
00:53:16 <planetmaker> Elukka: it's most likely not 100% complete
00:54:10 <Elukka> i'm not sure the coach i drew is on there but i thought it a reasonably safe bet that a very prominent german coach would be in the set
00:54:22 <planetmaker> Swissfan91: you just have to count pixels... there's no magic
00:54:26 <Elukka> anyhow, i suppose i should make a ticket under features
00:54:29 <planetmaker> both conditions cannot be true concurrently with that
00:54:32 <Elukka> next time i'll also pick a vehicle from the list
00:54:54 <planetmaker> finding the centre of something is... not that difficult. There's no perspective
00:55:06 <Swissfan91> I counted the roof out ok, but when you draw a line down from the top.. it doesnt cross the centre of the base
00:55:07 <planetmaker> no scale change rather
00:55:27 <planetmaker> see. then it's off
00:56:09 <Elukka> hey is there something particular i need to do with the png file (something about palettes) to make it okay for ottd?
00:57:07 <planetmaker> I'd say 4px further left
00:57:52 <planetmaker> balkony might fit
00:58:42 <Swissfan91> ok, here's my problem. I find the centre of the base, and draw a line all the way up. It means the roof point needs moving left - correct?
01:00:31 <Swissfan91> I would send you a picture explaining, but its forums downtime.. time.
01:01:01 <planetmaker> rather it's bed time :-)
01:05:58 <Swissfan91> I'm off too Elukka. Have a good time spriting!
01:06:14 <Elukka> i'm gonna see sprites when i go to bed
01:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the wagons are not representative yet
01:09:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just some made up ones to have a basis for development
01:10:34 <Elukka> i'll stick to basic wagons that'll be needed anyway rather than drawing any special ones
01:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, we always can put it into the "extended" set, so nothing is wasted :)
03:29:17 <Hinrik> which article on the wiki talks about strategies to maximize stations' service rating an such?
03:39:34 <Elukka> dunno, but in a nutshell the most important parts are that you always have a vehicle loading at the station and that your vehicles are as fast as possible
03:39:39 <Elukka> the former being the most critical
03:40:13 <Elukka> so in essence if you have a coal mine you don't want one long train you want two shorter ones
03:45:03 <Hinrik> btw, I think I found a bug
03:45:26 <Hinrik> if you place a station, and then place the exact same station over the previous one, you get charged for it
03:45:57 <Hinrik> so you can spend money on nothing
03:46:39 <Hinrik> I complied trunk but I couldn't get it to run...
03:54:47 <Pinkbeast> You always get charged when replacing station tiles.
03:55:08 <Pinkbeast> ... arguably you should not be when it's the same tile
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05:52:39 <Elukka> chris sawyer has amazingly rigid opinions about his games...
05:53:24 <Elukka> rollercoaster tycoon did not have a sandbox mode because it didn't fit his vision of the game, doesn't matter that people wanted it and it wouldn't have hurt the scenarios at all
05:53:56 <Elukka> "unofficial patches", referring to ttdpatch and by extension i suppose to ottd, "really annoy him" because dammit his games are made right
05:54:42 <Elukka> i'd be grateful if some people took upon greatly improving some project i had finished and abandoned a decade ago...
05:57:22 <Elukka> you can see the same attitude with some big game devs these days
05:57:35 <Elukka> "it's our game and you ignoramuses can't mod it or you'd ruin our bloody precious vision"
05:59:56 <Elukka> not an actual quote :P
06:00:05 <Elukka> last time that pops to mind, relic had that attitude
06:00:17 <Elukka> which is funny because they used to be nice to modders
06:01:09 <pjpe> that doesn't sound very funny at all
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06:04:35 <Elukka> funny in the "something smells funny" sense, not the amusing sense
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06:56:39 <Terkhen> ooh, time for a testing game
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09:13:57 <MNIM> Chris Sawyer shouldn't be complaining.
09:14:21 <MNIM> it's projects like TTDP and OTTD that still keep the gam alive in the first place
09:14:47 <MNIM> the only reason anybody plays it anymore is because of all the mods.
09:15:04 <MNIM> most online servers I see hardly ever play standard maps
09:15:14 <pjpe> hell i'm surprised people even play ted patch anymore
09:15:53 <MNIM> TTDP Does have several features that are sadly lacking in OTTD
09:16:17 <pjpe> building over tunnel entrance and custom bridgehead?
09:16:53 <MNIM> and things like programmable signals
09:17:00 <pjpe> think there was a patch for custom bridgehead
09:17:04 <pjpe> there was a patch for programmable signals
09:17:09 <pjpe> doesn't seem very useful though
09:17:21 <MNIM> exactly. they're hardly trunk
09:17:34 <pjpe> well they don't really have to be
09:17:40 <pjpe> you can patch it or you can use the patchpack
09:18:19 <pjpe> i don't think anyone even works on ttdpatch anymore
09:18:33 <planetmaker> oh, there has been a commit in the last quarter ;-)
09:19:27 <planetmaker> and then 15 January
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09:20:11 <MNIM> well, true, but a lot of people don't touch the patches for fear of breaking shit or not knowing what they're doing
09:20:27 <MNIM> patching could be more user-friendly IMNSHO
09:21:09 <MNIM> well, lemme rephrase that
09:21:28 <planetmaker> or rather I should also have more money and reign the world
09:21:37 <planetmaker> same quality of wish ;-)
09:21:48 <MNIM> well, I get you're afraid of the "OMG-i-patched-it-and-now-it-doesn't-work" people, but still
09:22:02 <_1009> Is there any sample code where a NWidget button is removed or added on the fly?
09:23:02 <planetmaker> _1009: you need to use planes
09:23:22 <planetmaker> where you can show different window layouts as function of variable
09:23:36 <planetmaker> like the NewGame window which is different from main menu or in SE
09:24:20 <_1009> Hm, I'm trying to reconfigure the AI Debug Window, to add an additional button "Stop AI" when Stop AI Cheat is active. Are planes possible there too?
09:25:10 <planetmaker> they're possible in every window
09:25:19 <planetmaker> I forgot the widget name which adds them
09:25:28 <planetmaker> as said, look at the NewGame window
09:25:38 <planetmaker> which sets map size etc
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09:49:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22904 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: add tar filename to file scanning
09:55:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22905 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#4753] (r22836): the name of the tar was removed from the AI filenames, so record it differently. Also removes some of the hackery to get the tar's filename
10:02:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22906 /trunk/src/script/script_scanner.cpp: -Fix (r22905): variable not properly cleared before use
10:04:37 <peter1138> i wanna take you to a
10:07:14 <Terkhen> that's one of the first stupid internet videos that I remember :P
10:08:55 <Terkhen> I know that it is a real song, but I only know it from the video :P
10:09:12 <MNIM> gotta love electric six, eh?
10:09:21 <MNIM> also, you missed something.
10:09:30 <MNIM> it's "YOU! I wanna take you..."
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10:25:05 <appe> what's the fastest plane grf?
10:34:08 <Elukka> one of the most bizarre music videos
10:34:54 <Elukka> i ponder, did he put lamps in his pants or is it CGI
10:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: fastest to compile, fastest to run, or fastest to crash?
10:56:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (no idea actually, i don't usually use planes)
11:01:25 <Elukka> i suppose there's no way to draw partially opaque pixels?
11:01:30 <Elukka> since only magic blue is alpha
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11:19:21 <Swissfan91> afternoon everyone
11:28:44 <Yexo> Elukka: it's possible if you use 32bpp sprites
11:28:57 <Yexo> you'll always need 8bpp sprites for people that don't use a 32bpp blitter though
11:29:23 <Elukka> the effort of making an entire train set in 32bpp spritse seems colossal
11:29:59 <Yexo> why would it be a bigger effort than making 8bpp sprites?
11:30:25 <Yexo> 32bpp is not "more zoom levels"
11:30:34 <Yexo> it just gives you more colors to chose from
11:30:48 <Elukka> the sprites i've seen are a lot more detailed than 8 bit sprites though
11:30:54 <Elukka> hey, in what way am i limited with colors anyway?
11:30:59 <Elukka> do i need to use a special palette?
11:31:10 <Yexo> you're limited to the colors from the TTD palette
11:31:19 <Yexo> so yes, you do need to use a special palette
11:31:22 <Elukka> how do i know what those are?
11:31:38 <Yexo> there are several drawing tutorials and links to the correct palette
11:32:38 <Elukka> i suppose i need to convert my sprite to the proper colors, then...
11:34:35 <Elukka> at least i'm assuming CETS uses the 8bit palette
11:34:54 <Yexo> yes, every grf has to use it
11:35:44 <Elukka> ah, i can make photoshop automatically convert it to the proper palette
11:36:07 <Yexo> if you do that, take care of action colors / company colors
11:36:51 <Elukka> i think what i'm going to do is make a palette in photoshop of the usable DOS (that's alright, right?) colors
11:37:33 <Yexo> Elukka: they might already exist on the #openttdcoop devzone, but I'm not sure where
11:37:40 <planetmaker> Elukka: or you could take the existing photoshop palette
11:37:55 <Elukka> there's an existing photoshop palette that's the same as the ttd palette?
11:39:01 <Yexo> Swissfan91: ^^ that link is also interesting for you
11:39:08 <Yexo> it documents how to convert your graphics
11:39:21 <Terkhen> if possible use the dos palette
11:39:29 <Terkhen> it has more colours and OpenTTD does not care about which one you use :)
11:39:56 <Elukka> i believe in photoshop you can simply download the palette, convert the image to indexed color and select the palette
11:40:00 <Yexo> the only reason to use the win palette would be if your sprites are for an existing project coded in nfo (not nml) and it already uses the windows palette
11:40:49 <Yexo> cets is coded in nml, thus doesn't care :)
11:40:55 <Yexo> hence the advise for DOS, as it has more colors
11:47:58 <Swissfan91> does it matter if I'm using Paint.net as opposed to Paintshop Pro or GIMP
11:48:50 <planetmaker> the result matters
11:49:45 <Swissfan91> I see. So I just download the palette, and take colours from it. And can I use everything other than the pure white colour?
11:50:28 <planetmaker> that doesn't cut it
11:50:40 <planetmaker> a palette is an image property
11:50:45 <planetmaker> it's an indexed image. It must not be rgb
11:51:55 <Swissfan91> So I need to do the thing in the IMPORTANT box on your link, PM?
11:52:34 <planetmaker> I don't know paint.net and thus don't know what you need to do to work with paletted images there
11:52:45 <planetmaker> you should know your tools, that's all :-)
11:53:25 <Terkhen> you should have some way of associating that palette to your sprite image
11:54:00 <Swissfan91> I have literally downloaded paint.net a few days ago to begin drawing, so I feel useless here,
11:55:33 <Elukka> since i'm not using company colors, will i have to remove those from the palette?
11:56:02 <planetmaker> just don't use them during drawing
11:56:21 <Elukka> well i hope it doesn't coincidentally convert some pixels in this sprite to company colors :D
11:56:58 <Yexo> Elukka: that's what the extra conversion steps are for: RGB -> TTDWinSafe -> RGB -> TTDWinFull
11:57:03 <Yexo> replace "win" with "dos"
11:57:10 <Yexo> but the same advise applies
11:57:57 <Elukka> there isn't a dos safe palette there thoguh
11:58:20 <Yexo> hmm, someone should create that one :p
12:02:17 <Elukka> guhh converting to the palette messes everything up
12:02:32 <Elukka> i dunno why it thinks it should move certain pixel rows upwards by 1 px
12:02:49 <Elukka> oh i guess that's just coincidence
12:05:39 <Elukka> ah, that was dithering..
12:08:45 <Elukka> okay, now it should be ready for ttd :)
12:10:44 <Elukka> erm, can i replace an attached image in the devzone somehow?
12:11:20 <Yexo> you can just attach the new version too?
12:17:34 <Elukka> hm. inconvenient that indexed images can't have layers
12:17:41 <Elukka> oh well, next time i'll know to use the right colors from the start
12:18:07 <Yexo> I'm quite sure in gimp you can have layers with indexed images
12:19:10 <Terkhen> for ogfx-rv I have layers for each cargo sprite and everything is indexed
12:20:24 <planetmaker> Elukka: we even have a script which automatically exports a set of chosen layers to png files ;-)
12:21:23 <Elukka> huh... gimp can, but photoshop can't?
12:21:42 <planetmaker> also works with photoshop files
12:21:51 <planetmaker> as gimp can read those ;-)
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12:24:19 <Elukka> i knew photoshop is bloated and inconvenient, but i didn't think it'd be behind on features :P
12:25:53 <Elukka> well it insists of flattening all layers when converting to indexed
12:26:19 <planetmaker> sounds like "sucks" ;-)
12:26:46 <Yexo> can you add layers again after converting?
12:27:10 <Elukka> wait it converted the image from psd to png no wonder
12:27:44 <Elukka> what should work is i draw it as rgb using the palette colors, then convert it to indexed when done
12:27:46 <Elukka> shouldn't make any difference
12:31:41 <Elukka> hm. i think the longer coaches would look better on the more realistic scale, but since all the existing sprites are slightly smaller i guess i'll do that
12:32:02 <Elukka> not a huge difference either way
12:32:32 <Elukka> coincidentally it ends up märklin scale :P
12:34:24 <Elukka> do you guys have preference on which scale they should follow?
12:35:09 <Elukka> real size in meters divided by 24*12 or 24*16 is what i've heard in context of CETS
12:35:29 <Elukka> both fit the templates fairly well
12:45:03 <planetmaker> Elukka: it's better to draw in the paletted image (I think)
12:45:22 <planetmaker> But some people indeed do it differently or even render stuff - and then convert and adjust pixels afterwards
12:45:33 <planetmaker> it's a matter of which work flow you prefer
12:46:41 <Elukka> "The colours in the "company" range are often (but not always) changed to the current player colours. In some instances, they may be changed to colours specified by the .grf file, or random colours, or not changed at all."
12:46:55 <Elukka> if CETS doesn't use company colors, that would be rather useful (or is it already done)
12:47:18 <planetmaker> assume them to be CC
12:47:57 <Elukka> do things break if i use a palette that simply omits them?
12:48:44 <Elukka> difficult to identify at a glance which is a company color and which is not
12:51:40 <Yexo> your final png file needs to have the exact palette
12:51:55 <Yexo> you can convert first to a palette without those colors and than convert again (via RGB) to a palette that has them
12:53:26 <planetmaker> Elukka: use ttdviewer, it's nice for that
12:53:40 <planetmaker> and the palette is always identical in the colour positions.
12:54:06 <Yexo> if you really want to use the company colors without any change you can, it requires some support code but it's pretty easy
12:54:42 <planetmaker> yup. But... I'd not recommend that in this set's case
12:54:57 <planetmaker> makes for unnecessary complications. And blue can be drawn without
12:56:31 <Elukka> can i assume that if it looks alright in ttdviewer it'll look alright in game?
12:57:44 <Elukka> luckily don't seem to have accidentally used company colors since the company recolor does nothing in the viewer
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14:11:31 <Swissfan91> do you, or anyone else on here, use paint.net?
14:12:44 <Belugas> i use Paint Shop Pro and Photoshop
14:14:04 <Swissfan91> do palettes, such as the TTD one, come as a palette file? or just a png?
14:14:14 <Rubidium> I use brushes and rollers
14:17:06 <Swissfan91> other palettes online seem to come as .txt files, but the TTD one is .act ?
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14:21:00 <Swissfan91> thanks Terkhen, but there is a lot of jargon there :P
14:36:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Swissfan91: the easiest way to get a valid palette is to generate a png with grfcodec (by decompiling a grf)
14:37:24 <planetmaker> or just download a paletted grf
14:41:14 <Swissfan91> you mean, when someone posts a sprite and they attach the palette.. download that and open it in paint.net?
14:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Swissfan91: can also use a screenshot
14:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> a screenshot made by pressing ctrl+s in openttd
14:44:44 <Swissfan91> oh, you mean taking a shot of a town, and using colours from the buildings?
14:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the png has the full palette built into it
14:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause> what's in the picture is irrelevant
14:46:30 <Swissfan91> sorry, I'm not following. (brain is scambled after looking at pixels for too long!).
14:51:42 <planetmaker> Swissfan91: a palette is part of an image. It's not something extra
14:51:51 <planetmaker> it is part of all openttd screenshots
14:52:50 <Swissfan91> ah. I was thinking a palette was just that box of coloured pixels
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15:09:28 <planetmaker> they won't magically convert your image into a paletted image, though
15:09:58 <planetmaker> they are correct, though
15:10:18 <planetmaker> but the first place to look should be the newgrf-specs wiki ;-)
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15:16:17 <Swissfan91> OK, I have downloaded GIMP. Would it be easier for someone to talk me through it now? :)
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16:29:00 <Coke> I checked GetTransportedGoodsIncome in economy.cpp, it seems to support it.
16:29:15 <Coke> However, I'm getting way too low numbers when trying to implement this math function elsewhere.
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16:59:02 <Swissfan91> afternoone LordAro
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17:15:26 <LordAro> Swissfan91: ok i guess
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17:45:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22907 /trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt:
17:45:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
17:54:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22908 /trunk/src/tree_gui.cpp: -Codechange: silence MSVC warning
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18:42:53 <Markk> The trams should have (magnetic) track brake.
18:43:00 <__ln__> btw, ludde is said to be living in Göteborg
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18:56:09 <LordAro> Zuu: did you ever post a screenie? can't find anything in the logs
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19:00:55 <Zuu> As you had quit, I found no point of linking it to you
19:01:18 <LordAro> looks good, well done! :)
19:02:00 <Zuu> I'm amazed that all.patch is about 2000 lines long.
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19:03:17 <Zuu> (though it includes some 200 lines of project file changes that shouldn't be there)
19:04:07 <Zuu> Hmm, I must have been tired yesterday. It is not 2k but 1k-ish lines :-D
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19:44:20 <frosch123> oops, the printing works in gone
19:45:59 <frosch123> luckily there is a second one nearby
19:46:16 <Terkhen> maybe there is a newgrf that prevents that :P
19:56:15 <frosch123> hmm, i cannot refit trams to half wheat, half livestock
19:57:14 <__ln__> obviously the livestock would eat the wheat if they are on the same tram
19:59:20 <frosch123> well, they both go to the same food processing plant
19:59:25 <frosch123> so it would make no difference
20:00:35 <Terkhen> that's why andy wants to do rv-wagons :P
20:01:10 <frosch123> well, i build two tramstops parallel to each other
20:01:31 <frosch123> livestock can walk a tile
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20:06:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22909 /trunk/os/windows/installer/ (install.nsi version_win32.txt version_win9x.txt): -Fix-ish [FS#4749]: let Windows 2000 and XP without service pack 3 use the win9x binary/installer; the newer MSVC compiler of the compile farm does not support those versions of Windows anymore
20:07:30 <LordAro> to be expected, i guess
20:07:31 <TrueBrain> not :(. It is progress.
20:09:56 <valhallasw> LordAro: the people who run XP without SP3 deserve the :( ;-)
20:10:42 <LordAro> just that i still have several win2k PCs at home :)
20:13:26 <Rubidium> well, don't use unicode... or compile it yourself with an older version of MSVC
20:13:54 <pjpe> ^^ this is the best optoon
20:14:02 <andythenorth> I want to do rv-wagons?
20:14:11 <andythenorth> I want *someone else* to do rv-wagons :P
20:14:43 <Rubidium> pjpe: updating Windows? That's a disaster waiting to happen, or do you mean reinstalling a newer version?
20:15:16 <Terkhen> heh, anyone has actually tried to do that?
20:15:19 <pjpe> not using windows 2000 entirely
20:15:28 <Rubidium> or at least used to be back in the days I used Windows, which is around 2000 and early XP
20:15:35 <Terkhen> with updating I mean reinstall a new version
20:15:41 <LordAro> pjpe: i agree, but not my choice
20:15:43 <Terkhen> windows 7 offers the same possibility with vista too
20:17:00 <pjpe> i don't think microsoft even supports win2k anymore
20:17:05 <pjpe> that's about the point where you know it's wrong
20:17:25 <glx> it's still indicated in msdn
20:18:30 <Terkhen> I remember some relatively recent news about extending support for XP, I didn't think that 2000 was still supported at all
20:19:05 <planetmaker> it's not supported anymore
20:20:25 <Rubidium> 2000's extended support was till mid 2010
20:21:27 <Rubidium> XP till 2014 or 2016 (Embedded)
20:23:26 <Rubidium> although only SP3 of XP is supported as of now
20:23:48 <planetmaker> which is fair enough
20:28:07 <Rubidium> us "supporting" basically the earliest windows 95s is really insane, but it makes those decisions of 'dropping' some support for ancient platforms much easier
20:29:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: did you play the corsica heightmap?
20:29:31 <LordAro> meh, should support windows 3.1 :D
20:29:37 <andythenorth> I like Corsica :)
20:29:44 <andythenorth> my honeymoon was in Corsica
20:29:51 <frosch123> you should not have any problems finding long rivers
20:29:59 <andythenorth> there is no french narrow gauge set :P
20:30:08 <andythenorth> so corsica is no-go
20:30:19 <andythenorth> and the rivers in corsica are *not* navigable :P
20:32:10 <Rubidium> LordAro: the dos version might work, although might very well not. Maybe it works if you compile the DOS version with an allegro that supports windows 3 (or lower)
20:33:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: you are right about the rives though :)
20:33:21 <andythenorth> those are *very* long river systems
20:33:30 <andythenorth> complete networks
20:33:39 <andythenorth> why can't terragen do that? :(
20:35:03 <andythenorth> it's pretty awesome
20:35:09 <andythenorth> but the map is way too flat :P
20:35:25 <andythenorth> basically cheating to use a map that flat
20:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> perlin is not the best way to generate good landscapes
20:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but... nobody implemented anything more useful
20:47:33 <Terkhen> scripted map generators
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20:52:04 <andythenorth> landscapes aren't just noise? They have signal? :o
21:01:25 <Belugas> signal... noise... PG somewhere in my mind
21:03:57 <andythenorth> Peter Gabriel recent stuff is a bit...harsh
21:04:21 <andythenorth> he lives near me somewhere
21:04:30 <andythenorth> my friend made the Sledgehammer video :)
21:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i really hope he's not related to Sigmar Gabriel ;)
21:06:17 <frosch123> sg is the arch enemy of my home town :p
21:06:28 <Belugas> if ever you see him passing by, tell him he has some fans in Quebec!
21:07:04 <andythenorth> Belugas: do you remember Portishead?
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21:14:13 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... it's not funny anymore what passes "terrorism" nowadays... they arrested two people who might have vague connections and maybe ordered suspicious substances that could possibly be used for a bomb, but had no actual preparations or plans... they do anything for a little "we need more security laws" psyop short before an election...
21:16:27 <hanf> Eddi|zuHause: assuming you're german, I read some stuff in die Zeit a while back about people wanting access to phone records etc. for that reason
21:16:30 <hanf> all seems a bit over the top
21:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> hanf: it's more complicated than that
21:18:46 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but it sells better than "two people arrested who ordered chemicals without permission"
21:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> at first they couldn't realistically argue for phone record storage, then they went through the EU to pass a guideline, then they got that through the parliament, then the constitutional court declared it void, then they couldn't get it through parliament again
21:19:20 <planetmaker> and now companies store it nevertheless
21:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: which is highly illegal, actually
21:19:52 <hanf> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, it always is. I don't really follow german news much, mostly finance and british news. perhaps I should!
21:19:58 <hanf> when do you hold elections?
21:20:00 <planetmaker> sure it's illegal
21:20:13 <Eddi|zuHause> hanf: regional elections in berlin next weekend
21:20:16 <planetmaker> it's violating my fundamental rights on grounds of the constitution
21:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: by much older court decisions, companies are only allowed to store things immediately needed for billing purposes
21:21:49 <planetmaker> for that exact reason, though
21:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> which is not at all for flatrates, and something 80-days-ish for connection-based billing
21:26:16 <planetmaker> but one should not wonder when the secretary of state and the boss of the federal police again and again request to change or make laws to that end - well knowing that they'll be both unconstitutional as well as without measurable effect on the number of resolved crimes
21:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> there's only one person in the entire republic which has enough influence to stop this rubbish... and we don't know how much longer she can hold out...
21:29:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the thing i fear most should the government happen to break up in the near future...
21:30:42 <planetmaker> hm you think that Merkel actively averts that?
21:30:49 <planetmaker> or whom do you talk of?
21:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant leuthäuser-schnarrenberger
21:32:00 <planetmaker> ah. Yes, that's right.
21:32:44 <planetmaker> Her attitude wrt civil rights indeed warrants respect in that environment
21:33:43 <planetmaker> if her party were more about civil rights than economic-libertarian, it might even have a chance to survive elections to come
21:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i honestly don't see that happening...
21:35:19 <planetmaker> the pirate party might superseed that
21:35:42 <planetmaker> though I'm not convinced there entirely either.
21:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> they have a different problem: they aren't in any notable parliament yet
21:36:04 <planetmaker> the difference between yet and anymore ;-)
21:36:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the FDP rescued one recent election by a narrow margin
21:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "they are not entirely dead yet" :p
21:38:41 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe one of these days someone realizes that the "Bündnis 90" part of the green party actually had something to do with civil rights once upon a time
22:13:58 * Zuu feels like an evil devil that reminds people about the rights of AIs :-)
22:14:33 <planetmaker> civil rAIghts movement?
22:16:00 <Zuu> Or just ARM = AI Rights Movement :-)
22:16:14 <Terkhen> are they complaining because they can't just build stupid stuff anymore?
22:16:19 <Terkhen> now they have to work :P
22:17:33 <Zuu> Well, I can frosee someone complaining that they make something silly if there eg. appear cargo airports that to the AI looks exactly the same as PAX airports.
22:17:59 <Terkhen> oh, people complaining
22:18:08 <Terkhen> that is not exactly complicated to foresee :P
22:20:21 <Zuu> Though, I have to say that from what I've seen the current AI API works better with current NewGRF airports than I first though when digging into it.
22:20:46 <Zuu> AIs will simply just use the first view/layout no matter which rotation that happen to be.
22:21:11 <Yexo> luckily with opengfx+airport that is the default rotation
22:21:22 <Zuu> Eg. if a NewGRF disables the DIR_N rotation, another will be at index 0 and be available to the AI.
22:22:16 <Zuu> Though, the current height/width functions could be made rotation aware to handle if index 0 is DIR_W or DIR_E and I think it should not be too bad actually.
22:22:53 <Yexo> I think that is a nice task for the compatibility layer
22:23:27 <Zuu> Yep, though the copatibility layer will just pass index zero to the new function :-)
22:23:44 <Yexo> it doesn't have to do that
22:24:02 <Zuu> But, it can't know which rotation index zero is as there is no API to check that.
22:24:03 <Yexo> it could do something fancy like listing all views, pick the first with rotation DIR_N (or maybe also DIR_S) and pass that view
22:24:25 <Yexo> it could check the width/height of each rotation
22:24:30 <Zuu> DIR_* is not exposed to the AI.
22:24:43 <Yexo> and compare that to hardcoded list of sizes of the default airports
22:27:06 <Zuu> Aren't NewGRFs currently allowed to create new tile layouts that are different sized than default airports?
22:27:36 <Yexo> but for all but DIR_N and DIR_E I think that'll break the rotation
22:28:31 <Zuu> DIR_E is 90 degree clockwise?
22:32:47 <Zuu> An AI (and thus compat layer) can't know if a given airport index is a default airport or not.
22:32:59 <Zuu> Fixing that airport eg. 40 is a buildable small airport is sure doable.
22:33:16 <Yexo> Zuu: default airports will keep the same IDs for the compat layer
22:33:32 <Yexo> AIs using the compat layer are AIs designed for OpenTTD <= 1.1, so not using AIAirportList etc.
22:33:52 <Zuu> But for compatibility layer reasons I'm unsure if we can make the <= 9 airports non-buildable when they are overriden. Though, I now remember that we had already decided to in that case just screw old AIs :-)
22:34:21 <Yexo> hmm, that bug in openttd is still open
22:34:26 <Yexo> need to fix that soon ;)
22:35:08 <Zuu> Thus if the default Ids are marked non-buildable when they are overriden and those > max NewGRF id are also non-buildable, a compat layer can know if a given Id is a default airport or not.
22:35:54 <Zuu> And then your idea rearding checking sizes can apply. However, in that case you also know that DIR_N is available. :-)
22:37:07 <Zuu> (compared to always using index 0)
22:39:49 <Zuu> That said, making default ids non-buildable when overriden + fixing that bug is probably both good things to do.
23:04:59 <Pikka> is it me or are the forums exceptionally slow the last couple of days?
23:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say "it's you", but i have also had a few problems a while ago
23:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> not right now, though
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