IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-07
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00:00:05 <Bjarni> odd, nobody wants to write anything about CO2 from Eyjafjallajokull after it turned out the estimate were too low
00:00:59 <Elukka> i can't find any source that would peg it as high enough that it'd be significant compared to human emissions
00:01:47 <Bjarni> btw how do we know human emissions? That's actually an estimate too
00:02:27 <Bjarni> and the effect of CO2 is also an estimate... not to mention how the plants reacts
00:02:58 <Bjarni> it's not proven or disproven that plants grow faster with more CO2 and hence use more CO2 from the air
00:03:37 <Bjarni> right now we have 388 ppm (at least that's the official number)
00:03:48 <Bjarni> plants are optimised for 1500 ppm
00:04:46 <Bjarni> which is an indication that the current level isn't unusually high, but actually lower than what plants evolved to live in
00:05:40 <Eddi|zuHause> case BUILD_VEHICLE_WIDGET_SORT_ASSENDING_DESCENDING: <-- typo
00:08:55 <Elukka> the current level isn't unusually high, true, higher has occured through natural mechanisms
00:09:02 <Elukka> just the earth was half desert and the rest tropical
00:09:06 <Elukka> we probably don't want that
00:13:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there is generally two ways natural systems work:
00:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> 1) it slowly builds up, until the lowest demand cannot be filled, then it drops again until it can be, then it rises again
00:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) it quickly builds up, until the lowest demand cannot be filled, but by then it has surpassed a point where it cannot drop again to get into the original state
00:14:17 <Elukka> well, the earth's biosphere has more than one stable state
00:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the "capitalistic" world generally falls into the 2nd category
00:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it builds up until some catastrophic event happens
00:17:19 <Elukka> no no you see, if you had even less regulation magic capitalism fairies would put it all right
00:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the fewer feedback mechanisms you have, the more likely case 2 happens
00:19:07 <Elukka> i hate to repeat myself, but the channel was rather busy before, so i'd like to ask if there's something more i could do to my wagon to bring it up to CETS standards so i could move on to making another one
00:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i looked at that last picture you posted, but i haven't quite seen the difference
00:22:48 <Elukka> trying to be careful not to make it too messy, but i upped the contrast a bit
00:23:00 <Elukka> lower row is still entirely unmodified
00:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the doors could be slightly darker
00:24:49 <Elukka> the door area in general?
00:25:31 <Elukka> hey it does look better that way
00:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and the white sign jumps from being between two windows to directly below one window
00:26:58 <Elukka> yeah that's true gonna fix it
00:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and the wheels look asymmetric
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00:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and i still think you should move the windows closer together (and add the missing window)
00:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> could shorten the wagon by one pixel then
00:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> may make it more symmetric
00:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the wagon templates are done in a way that they overlap by 1 pixel
00:30:25 <Elukka> i can move the windows closer together on the sideview, but if i did on the diagonals they'd all be one big adjacent window
00:31:05 <Elukka> since there's only one pixel between them
00:31:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: work with blending effects on the diagonal views
00:31:53 <Elukka> make a pixel that's in between the window color and the body color 'between' the windows?
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00:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: yeah, something like that
00:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: especially the alignment of the windows looks really odd
00:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: instead of one straight line it looks like they go up and down in some views
00:33:26 <Elukka> the door window looks like it's upper than the rest since it's inset
00:33:31 <Swissfan91> does anyone know what format sprites are prefered in ?
00:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: pixel art is much about hiding these oddities
00:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Swissfan91: in general, a PNG with the DOS palette
00:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Swissfan91: and the top of your roof seems wrong
00:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Swissfan91: should probably moved 1 pixel up
00:42:10 <Elukka> erm, i'm not seeing any links or anything from swissfan
00:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you lack overview :p
00:46:23 <Elukka> okay, added the seventh window, through some subtle trickery on the diagonal view
00:51:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. clearly an improvement
00:51:35 <Eddi|zuHause> now get these wheels symmetric :)
00:52:13 <Elukka> were i to shorten the car by a pixel... in which direction should i do it?
00:52:36 <Elukka> i don't see how it'd fit the template anymore
00:54:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd keep the left door, and move everything else one pixel to the left
00:56:36 <Elukka> and... some magic blue on top of the part of the template that's no longer covered, i suppose
01:09:26 <Elukka> just check that one last pic!
01:09:30 <Elukka> eternal stream of tiny tweaks
01:09:48 <Elukka> once there's no more to tweak i'll apply it to all the sprites and call the coach done
01:10:00 <Elukka> that's not the right pic what the hell
01:10:22 <Elukka> oh right photobucket does odd things if you delete and reupload under the same file name
01:12:00 <Elukka> glx, what do you mean about the angle?
01:12:53 <glx> you made - and \ it seems
01:13:19 <Elukka> it's just i haven't tweaked the rest yet
01:14:47 <Elukka> CETS does some sort of magic
01:19:18 <Elukka> think i'm gonna continue this tomorrow
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07:42:56 <dihedral> \o/ managed to introduce jabber at work :-)
07:44:36 <dihedral> i mainly need it to not have to constantly call the homeoffice guys
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08:26:29 <Terkhen> you are still far away from that server in 18592
08:26:41 <Terkhen> your server is young :P
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09:03:00 <doctor_d> hi! i'm stuck with a newgrf translation issue, can someone help please?
09:04:04 <doctor_d> ok, the point is i downloaded a translation file from the firs repository.... and my question is: and now?
09:04:28 <Terkhen> you downloaded english.lng?
09:04:44 <Terkhen> if so, then translate it and attach it to the FIRS development thread in the forums
09:04:53 <Terkhen> but make sure that your language is not translated already :)
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09:05:20 <doctor_d> but the problem is another
09:05:58 <doctor_d> i don't know where to put the *.lng file in order to play with the trlanslated newgrf... i know, i'm a newbie...
09:06:35 <Terkhen> to test your translation you need the complete framework to compile FIRS again
09:06:59 <Terkhen> FIRS development versions are also compiled every day at about 18:00
09:07:20 <Terkhen> so if you paste your translation to the thread, the next development version after it is compiled will feature your translation already
09:07:50 <Terkhen> sorry, in the last sentence I meant committed, not compiled
09:08:12 <doctor_d> so i can't download just the translation i need and manually add to the game, can i?
09:08:23 <Swissfan91> does anyone know of a building drawing tutorial? or have any tips of drawing roofs for me?
09:08:58 <Terkhen> but all translations included in FIRS source are also inside FIRS
09:09:09 <Terkhen> no need to add them unless you change something
09:10:15 <doctor_d> ok thanks, and one other question, if i download the source code, how can i compile it?
09:16:09 <doctor_d> ok thanks, even though it's quite out of my league ^_^
09:16:31 <Terkhen> yes, it is quite complicated to setup
09:18:36 <doctor_d> one last thing and i won't bother you anymore
09:20:51 <doctor_d> if a language file is already provided to FIRS team, what must i do to use the translated version?
09:21:44 <planetmaker> use a new enough firs and have openttd use that language?
09:21:51 <Terkhen> once a translation is provided, we include it in FIRS source and the next development version (and future stables based on those versions) will include it
09:22:00 <planetmaker> (provided that the language file was already commited by a firs team member)
09:24:55 <doctor_d> i think i got where the problem is. i'll try using a snapshot build or wait for the next stable. anyway it's not a big deal playing in english
09:28:55 <doctor_d> ok thank you very much, have a nice day!
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11:54:05 <andythenorth> there are smaller mining trucks which will fit better
11:54:11 <andythenorth> I'll pm them to you
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12:09:20 <George> Is that truck available in HEQS ?
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12:24:49 <planetmaker> I really love your new mine, George :-)
12:25:45 <planetmaker> yes, that truck size is better
12:26:03 <planetmaker> but they shouldn't transport strawberry chewing gum ;-)
12:27:06 <George> and what colour do you expect for bauxite?
12:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> colour is fine, i think, but could maybe use a little more texture
12:28:48 <George> I do not draw it, I copypaste it from 1960s_dump_truck_2_axle.pcx [71.37 KiB] from andy. If you think the other colour should be copypasted, let me know which one
12:29:34 <George> I do not draw cargo in truck
12:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> then that should probably go to andy :)
12:30:18 <planetmaker> IMHO the colour should be more orange than pink
12:32:01 <George> do you have 1960s_dump_truck_2_axle.pcx? If yes, what line do you mean?
12:32:53 <George> I suppose the last one is for sand, so this one is bauxite
12:33:13 <planetmaker> George, I don't necessarily mean to use a particular colouring of andy ;-)
12:33:29 <planetmaker> you're probably right that it's supposed to show bauxite
12:34:02 <planetmaker> I mean... look at the rock your mine shows. Then look at the trucks
12:34:09 <planetmaker> That material cannot be dug out from that mine
12:34:10 <George> But if andy would provide new graphics for his truck with bauxite, I shall replace it
12:34:57 <planetmaker> The material the trucks transport should be the one from that mine, i.e. same shade of colours
12:35:02 <planetmaker> it's a surface mine
12:35:19 <George> What do you suggest? To make the mine more pink? I tried that already, it does not look well
12:35:37 <planetmaker> yes. Thus I suggest to colour the trucks cargo according to your mine :-)
12:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> look at the picture, the mine is more yellow-ish while the truckload is more pink-ish
12:36:21 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, that's because it's taken in broken hill
12:36:28 <planetmaker> where the bauxite comes from a sub-surface mine
12:36:44 <planetmaker> but the surrounding rock on the surface looks like that
12:38:04 <George> But wouldn't it look strange, if the truck in mine has the other cargo colour than a truck loading nearby?
12:38:46 <planetmaker> maybe. But what's more strange: a truck in a mine with something which cannot be dug there or the latter where the vehicle sets could adjust?
12:39:20 <planetmaker> or where one could assume some sorting process already has been done
12:39:51 <planetmaker> well. In the end you decide. But I find the pink cargo in the orange mine quite strange
12:40:21 <planetmaker> possibly one could go for a compromise: more pinkish sand and more orange-ish cargo
12:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> compromise: keep the colour of the (flat) ground like it is, but make the colour of the (sloped) wall slightly more red-pink-ish
12:40:50 <planetmaker> and the cargo of the truck less pinkish ;-)
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12:52:32 <George> I'd suggest also to change the cargo colour for bauxite for all vehicles set
12:53:49 <planetmaker> yes. Strawberry is not the best colour for it ;-)
12:54:02 <planetmaker> raspberry actually
12:54:36 <George> Can you draw the better colours?
12:55:04 <Rubidium> give him a large box of coloured sticks and I guess he can draw a better colour
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13:16:38 <George> this is waht Michael suggested
13:17:49 <planetmaker> I'm not sure about the sand colours, but the ore colours would fit ;-)
13:39:07 <planetmaker> I'd possibly switch ore and bauxite there :-)
13:39:30 <planetmaker> but that might be... too big a change
13:39:40 <George> planetmaker: what do you think? IMHO we can discuss and come to agreement at least for ECS/FIRS/HEQS/LV
13:40:00 <planetmaker> include opengfx* into that
13:40:09 <planetmaker> which I can adopt, too
13:40:30 <George> planetmaker: > but that might be... too big a change - if we would o an agreement, I would do the change for ECS/LV/xUSSR set
13:40:55 <Terkhen> reaching an agreement would be good :)
13:41:22 <Terkhen> besides that I can't say much; colours are difficult for me :P
13:42:18 <George> Yes. But we need more suggestions. As for me, MBs suggestion does not look right. I'll try to make my suggestion today evening
13:42:44 <planetmaker> IMHO sand is a bit pale and could be more yellow-ish
13:42:46 <George> Didn't we miss any cargo?
13:43:00 <planetmaker> but we'd need to pay attention to not confuse it with grain / sulphur
13:43:10 <planetmaker> oil seeds is good, I think
13:43:18 <planetmaker> lime stone and potash, too, I recon
13:43:34 * Terkhen does not remember adding support to sulphur and potash in opengfx+ road vehicles
13:49:30 <Terkhen> according to the wiki, potash is a planned cargo for the Chemical Vector, and sulphur a cargo of the ECS Basic Vector for Arctic, which is outdated
13:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't suppose refitting can change railtype of a vehicle
13:49:46 <Terkhen> which explains why I missed those cargos while checking ECS :)
13:50:07 <planetmaker> hm, what's their current status, George? ^
13:51:07 <George> In the low priority plan
13:53:31 <planetmaker> comparing iron ore and bauxite on google image search suggests to me that maybe on a very rough average, iron ore is a bit more orange than bauxite - but both look very similar
13:54:17 <Terkhen> since potash and sulphur only require recolouring, I don't mind adding them to opengfx+ road vehicles... two more in a long list of cargos won't hurt :P
14:06:20 <George> FIRS has gravel and clay?
14:06:53 <planetmaker> stone rather than gravel. But yes
14:22:12 <Terkhen> I'll add a few other variations so it has some randomization
14:22:20 <Terkhen> most of the vehicles have roughly the same size
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14:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Ryanair is a perfect example of ultracapitalism
14:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> going to some tiny airports, scraping off every government funding they can find, and if that runs out, leave scorched earth behind
14:56:08 <larsie> indeed. ultracapitalism rox. it made tycoon.
14:56:31 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: exactly. and people love it.
14:56:43 <larsie> its funny that socialists play tycoon.
14:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> not everything that people love is actually good for them.
14:57:01 <larsie> no, but people need to understand this them self
14:57:05 <larsie> you cannot controll men.
14:57:12 <larsie> its not how we are created.
14:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we are, we do learn from other people.
14:57:48 <larsie> Eddi|zuHause, didn't you see 'das leben der anderen'
14:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: didn't you see "by machines of loving grace"?
14:58:21 <larsie> no, haven't seen that one. 2 sec
14:59:11 <Elukka> i like how ryanair would have people stand in airplanes, if those evil government regulations did not forbid them from doing so
14:59:25 <larsie> not easy to find a trailer for it.
14:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: it's a 3-part documentation
14:59:48 <larsie> Elukka, well, if it made it cheaper for people - why not. then we have choice.
15:00:02 <larsie> ikea, wall-mart, europris and such stores have done more for poor people than govt. have ever done.
15:00:51 <Elukka> if one wants to have a functional society, the government has to regulate corporations
15:01:03 <Elukka> someone's also got to regulate the government which is troublesome
15:01:08 <larsie> thats the least thing you want, Elukka.
15:01:29 <larsie> no. this is what make men without an heart.
15:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: everything that capitalism has ever done to poor people is keep them poor
15:01:56 <larsie> only way for poor people to be rich is to work.
15:01:59 <larsie> capitalism legalizes work.
15:02:02 <larsie> socialisms forbids it.
15:02:09 <larsie> you need to search and talk with people so you can do ur job.
15:02:32 <Eddi|zuHause> now that is the most stupid definition i have ever heard :p
15:02:38 <larsie> and govt. have become a fascistic place to be. the richest people have contacts, which makes them less chance to loose the competition
15:03:12 <Elukka> you can see how rampant capitalism makes the poor poorer and the rich richer... modern america is like a textbook case
15:03:14 <larsie> Lobbyism have killed the market.
15:03:40 <larsie> yes, cause modern america ain't pure capitalism. in pure capitalism taxes and regulation of behaviour which doesnt inflicts harm to other is forbidden.
15:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> how is lobbyism not a market?
15:03:51 <larsie> cause its trumphes the market.
15:04:02 <larsie> The little guy cannot with ease deliver his goods.
15:04:08 <larsie> to the market thus earning his living.
15:04:16 <planetmaker> and how do taxes contradict capitalism?
15:04:33 <Elukka> the united states' gini coefficient (inqueality of wealth distribution) is on par with many african nations
15:04:38 <larsie> stealing is forbidden in capitalism.
15:04:51 <Terkhen> once I get a work, I'll make sure to come back here and tell you guys how rich I have become :P
15:04:53 <Elukka> many developing nations have it better, even
15:05:02 <larsie> african nations are those who gets most help the last 40 years, but this is the continent that have lowered their GDP
15:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: and how exactly do you want to enforce that rule without a government?
15:05:14 <Elukka> higher number is worse
15:05:31 <larsie> those who find it interesting enforcing property does so. ofcourse I'm for legalizing automatic rifles to the people.
15:05:36 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: africa is a perfect example how the capitalistic sense of "helping" means "keep them poor"
15:05:47 <larsie> No. its hardcore socialism in africa.
15:05:57 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: there's a great book: "confessions of an economic hitman" (or so)
15:06:04 <larsie> in somalia, if you cut your beard - the govt. cuts of your arm. is this capitalism? I say not
15:06:17 <larsie> Eddi|zuHause, yea, i've heard about it and in pure capitalism it wouldnt happen.
15:06:38 <Terkhen> incredible, I'll just go back to coding :P
15:06:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
15:06:42 <larsie> basic point is: all are egoists. even those who claim they are not.
15:07:00 <larsie> Terkhen good choice. being egoist is the way, life and truth. :)
15:07:04 <Elukka> i love how pure capitalists think it's less ethical to redistribute a part of their wealth than it is to have the poor die
15:07:09 <planetmaker> you're not advocating capitalism. You're advocating the power to the strongest. Anarchy basically
15:07:23 <larsie> Elukka, its not their fault that they die.
15:07:29 <Terkhen> nah, it's just that this conversation reached a point of senselessness that I can't grasp
15:07:35 <larsie> Elukka, yes, i'm anarcho-capitalist, or libertarian if you will.
15:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: you have missed last night? :p
15:08:06 <Terkhen> I never read the night backlog when it is very long
15:08:07 <planetmaker> yeah... the epic return... of epic 'debates'
15:08:18 <Terkhen> usually you never say anything useful :P
15:08:29 <Elukka> well, going back to coding is certainly more productive .P
15:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that perfectly applies to this case :p
15:09:00 <larsie> Elukka, more productive? hmmms? isn't that the seed of fruitfulness? :)
15:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: if the goal is high productivity, social market clearly trumps both ultracapitalsm and ultrasocialism
15:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why Germany stands much better than USA after the 2008 crisis
15:12:01 <larsie> Obama is a one-time president. US is to valuable to throw them self for socialism.
15:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: it's a hybrid system. less free than the free market, less social than socialism. it's a system that worked very well for western europe during the cold war
15:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> with the destruction of socialism in the 1990s, this model is quickly decaying, though
15:13:30 <larsie> Well. You could remove all those who creates work and imagine what you are left with.
15:13:46 <larsie> socialism is being build again.
15:13:55 <larsie> the new world currency.
15:14:03 <larsie> you cannot buy or sell without it.
15:14:13 <Elukka> in pure capitalism, i'd be homeless right now and several people i know would be dead
15:14:13 <larsie> its prophesized in the bible of those times.
15:14:25 <larsie> maybe, or you may had it much better.
15:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> omg, now he's a bible-capitalist
15:15:51 <Elukka> it is currently yesterday night
15:16:13 <larsie> you cannot avoid truth. he he.
15:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you must be a moron to not "forsee a crisis"
15:16:28 <larsie> Yea, well. Many people are in such case a moron.
15:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> crisis happen all the time. just saying "there comes a crisis" doesn't make you a visionary
15:16:53 <larsie> No, but if you watch the clip he explains why.
15:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i could as well say "you die".
15:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and after you died, i say "i told you so"
15:17:14 <larsie> Legalize production of currency will help alot.
15:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that helping?
15:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause> banks inventing their own money is exactly what caused the crisis
15:18:40 <larsie> Then people can choose which currency they will use.
15:18:50 <Elukka> this month, leaves will fall from the trees!
15:18:57 <Elukka> i am basically nostradamus
15:19:23 <larsie> Its unavoidable that if men are not allowed to produce, it will be a bad harvesting.
15:20:25 <larsie> Production are done by egoism. that men want production for them self and others they like.
15:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: men are not only egoists, they are also lazy.
15:21:58 <larsie> Yes. Especially when they dont need to work for their living.
15:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> larsie: government's job is to make these lazy people work, when capitalism fails to do so
15:23:06 <larsie> Its the otherway around.
15:23:33 <larsie> I understand why people don't work when they know that 80-90% of their money are going back to the mafia state govt.
15:23:52 <larsie> Govt. doesnt produce anything. It's private people who does.
15:24:11 <Hirundo> try producing if said govt doesn't create a road to the factory
15:24:16 <Hirundo> or educate the workers
15:24:28 <Hirundo> or provide treatment to ill workers
15:24:31 <larsie> Hirundo, so you are saying that men are not interested in roads or education?
15:24:35 <Hirundo> or.... well you get the point
15:24:43 <larsie> Yes, and it's a fallacy.
15:25:00 <Eddi|zuHause> good example: compare american (private) railway system with german (public, mostly) railway system
15:25:01 <planetmaker> could we move to #capitalism ?
15:25:03 <Terkhen> yes, the world is black and white :P
15:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> which one do you think works better?
15:25:09 <Terkhen> and yes, go to #capitalism
15:25:33 <Terkhen> this conversation is really offtopic, specially in a channel that starts with #open :P
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15:28:15 <Elukka> think there's something more i could do?
15:29:05 * Hirundo joins #anarcho-syndicalism instead
15:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, in the slightly angled view, the right could do with 2 dark lines, not only 1
15:29:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the pixels on the very low right stick out a bit, might make those magic blue
15:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and move the wheels 1 pixel outwards, to match with the straight view
15:30:15 <Elukka> you mean the dark line where the coach would be attached to another?
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15:30:54 <Elukka> the wheels already touch the rails, i'm not sure where i could move them
15:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the middle wheel doesn't look exactly in the middle to me
15:34:13 <Elukka> can't see any way to make it better though
15:34:20 <Elukka> the old lower version is essentially the other option
15:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause> just move the wheel 1 pixel to the right
15:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, better, but something's still not right...
15:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> need to think about it
15:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> do you have the complete unscaled image?
15:53:01 <Elukka> btw in the older version the wheel placement is the same except one pixel down
15:55:04 <Elukka> here's the full thing in original scale as it stands now, but i haven't tweaked most of the sprites yet
15:57:07 <Elukka> i appreciate the crits, i'm sure the next sprite will be slighty more painless since this is my first try at drawing sprites for anything :D
16:06:03 *** Lachie_ has joined #openttd
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16:41:22 <Tatsh> planetmaker, while the patch to cctools is quite large, it does consistently work so what i've built is essentially a series of otherwise small patches for gcc and llvm-gcc that will enable them to compile on Linux
16:42:05 <Tatsh> and now there's iphone support as well
16:51:49 <Tatsh> i'm testing out Qt at the moment
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17:04:52 <planetmaker> George: great composition. I'll add OpenGFX colours to it
17:05:22 <planetmaker> And maybe we also add sugar beets and fruits?
17:06:01 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
17:06:53 <frosch123> tomatos is still not released :p
17:07:03 <LordAro> how would i go about replacing [FS#<a-four-digit-number>] with {{Flyspray|<the-same-four-digit-number>}} ? (automatically, obviously :) )
17:07:20 <Terkhen> I remember that strange commit
17:08:07 <Terkhen> eventually I knew what was bananas, but tomatos is still a mistery
17:08:31 <Terkhen> it was around that commit when I started checking the commit log
17:09:28 <frosch123> LordAro: you would run a bot applying a regular expression replacement like "s/\[FS#([0-9 ]*)\]/{{Flyspray|\1}}/"
17:10:32 <LordAro> hmm... something to do with a text editor would've been better... :)
17:10:57 <frosch123> then use a texteditor which knows about regular expressions
17:11:38 <frosch123> every advanced editor is able to do that
17:11:51 <glx> notepad++ knowns that IIRC
17:12:05 <LordAro> notepad++ is very useful atm :)
17:12:34 <glx> visual studio can do it too (with a different syntax)
17:12:40 <frosch123> no idea, notepad++ is said to be one of the best editors for windows. so, if it does not know about regex, that might be poor for windows :p
17:16:38 <LordAro> frosch123/glx: works perfectly :)
17:17:21 <LordAro> i was about to complain about it not working, but i noticed that i'd missed a '\'
17:24:31 * Zuu start to wonder if "views" shouldn't be named "layouts" or "rotations" in the NoAI API.
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17:24:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
17:25:20 <frosch123> rotations would be misleading
17:27:05 <Zuu> More misleading than "views"?
17:31:06 <planetmaker> as in principle the tile layout can be completely different and there can be many views with the same statemachine's rotation
17:31:30 <Zuu> Isn't tile layout just visuals?
17:32:36 <Zuu> Anyway, having more than one rotation of the same type doesn't seem more alien to me than the fact that going straight in an intersection is a "turn" in many traffic applications :-)
17:32:45 <planetmaker> It defines which tiles are occupied by the object / airport / industry
17:33:04 <planetmaker> so it's definitely more than visual
17:33:23 <Zuu> Would layout be a better name?
17:33:24 <LordAro> Alberth: i'm guessing you haven't noticed my pm yet ;)
17:33:50 <planetmaker> but it doesn't really matter really...
17:34:02 <planetmaker> it could also be the same layout, just rotated and with different sprites ;-)
17:34:24 <planetmaker> personally I'd prefer 'layout' slightly
17:34:57 <planetmaker> also for objects it's ... a bit a limitation to call it views and limit it to 1,2 or 4 in the expectations to see it as rotations
17:35:04 <V453000> how amazing is it when you write on a forum a post saying "Hi, I draw this, [description], would someone like to help?" And you get a reply "Do you draw it, I would like to play."
17:35:21 <Zuu> I guess 'layout' is slightly more suggesting that it can have different state machines than 'view', but apart from that, I like 'layout' better than 'view'.
17:35:36 <V453000> it surprised the hell of me :D
17:35:48 <V453000> true that I know that that person is ... uhm ... not in the best shape of mind
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17:36:30 <V453000> well, czech forums ....
17:37:13 <Alberth> LordAro: I noticed, but not opened the attachment yet, I am busy getting a piece of software up & running.
17:38:14 <Zuu> planetmaker: However, using consistent naming for different areas is probably helpful and if the name 'view' has already been established in the NewGRF spec, then it might be better to stick to it.
17:38:38 <planetmaker> Zuu: as has been layout
17:38:42 <planetmaker> it's the older name even
17:38:57 <Zuu> So both names are used for the same thing?
17:39:09 <planetmaker> airports and objects call it views
17:39:13 <planetmaker> industries call it layouts
17:39:33 <planetmaker> industries just have no visual feedback, such that the user can choose
17:39:47 <planetmaker> but technially that's the same behind the scenes
17:39:49 <Alberth> Zuu: you are talking about newgrf specs, those are non-consistent, almost by definition :)
17:40:57 <Zuu> Well, I'll see, maybe I get around to rename views to layouts later. For now I'm more excited about implementing support for them in the API :-)
17:41:59 *** DarkSide has joined #openttd
17:44:55 <Zuu> An argument for using 'layout' over 'view' is that in the OpenTTD source code it is called a layout.
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22903 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt english_US.txt):
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 2 changes by TheLamer
17:45:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: english_US - 7 changes by Rubidium
17:49:58 <frosch123> airports are more like industries, so i would prefer "layout"
17:50:09 <frosch123> objects are totally different to industries and airports
17:53:53 <Terkhen> why do you want to put bug reports on the wiki?
17:53:57 <Alberth> it is highly obsolete, why would you want to add it to the wiki?
17:54:12 <LordAro> they are already there, i just want a template that links to them
17:54:26 <Alberth> better delete them :)
17:56:16 <valhallasw> but it has been disabled
17:56:31 <LordAro> just found it, apparently so
17:58:21 <Alberth> 0.5.2 oh man, that's old :)
17:58:32 <LordAro> i've done all the newer ones :)
17:58:45 <planetmaker> it's about when I started discovering this game
17:59:46 <LordAro> he, 0.4.8 for me :) but didn't touch it again until 0.6.3-ish
18:00:25 <planetmaker> I've a 0.4.8 version somewhere... but I was surprised when I found it ;-)
18:00:27 <LordAro> i shall just ignore the sourceforge bugfixes in the changelog then
18:01:43 <LordAro> looking at the changelog, its fun how much were 'features' which nowadays would just be 'add'
18:02:51 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
18:03:07 <LordAro> also how many 'features' were included in the bugfix releases
18:04:49 <LordAro> also, 'codechange' (then) == 'change' (now)
18:06:13 <Alberth> read a piece about that too, except that was about use of computers to assist in real archeology :)
18:06:39 <Terkhen> my project was about that :P
18:07:49 <planetmaker> LordAro: we still do a lot of code changes
18:08:00 <planetmaker> There's a clear difference between change and codechange
18:08:19 <planetmaker> a codechange never affects behaviour
18:08:26 <LordAro> i know, but seemingly not then: "Codechange: Disable shares by default and increase the default maximum distance from edge for oil refineries (r9339) "
18:10:03 <Alberth> LordAro: it is in the changelog too :)
18:14:51 <Zuu> planetmaker: In OpenTTD, an AirportSpec have a width and a height and one or more layouts. Each layout have a direction. If two different layouts have considerable different size, shouldn't there be a size_x and size_y for each layout?
18:15:26 <planetmaker> Zuu: a layout can be irregular
18:15:46 <Zuu> Yes, but even ignoring that, it is strange that the size is per airport and not per layout.
18:15:50 <planetmaker> ogfx+airports' layouts are not all pure rectangles
18:16:14 <Zuu> For irregular airports, there will need to be a way to get a tile list of yet to be built airports.
18:16:36 <Zuu> Still, being able to get a bounding box for each layout would be useful.
18:17:12 <planetmaker> you're probably right
18:17:27 <planetmaker> thus the function probably best would work with layout# as parameter
18:18:01 <planetmaker> and maybe a special layout# which indicates max(i=0...N layouts)
18:18:29 <Zuu> I'm already doing that for the NoAI API and picking the right X/Y variable depending on the rotation, but for different sized layouts that is going to fail.
18:18:59 <Zuu> I guess the size_x and size_y is the bounding box of the largest layout.
18:23:42 <planetmaker> that'd be very mis-leading for an l-shaped layout :-)
18:23:57 <planetmaker> which I consider highly likely to appear when we have custom statemachines
18:23:58 <Zuu> Btw, for irregular airports, eg. GetMinimalAirportDistanceToTile (station_cmd.cpp) will have to change to work with tile layouts instead of bounding boxes.
18:25:00 <Zuu> It now doesn't seem to take rotated layouts into account if I read it correctly.
18:26:08 <Zuu> It takes an AirportSpec, town tile and north airport tile as arguments. An AirportSpec contains all layouts thus the function doesn't have enaugh arguments to deal with layouts.
18:26:40 * Zuu thinks it's time to write a bug report so it doesn't get forgetten
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18:48:30 <Zuu> I have no idea if size_x and size_y are computed or read from the NewGRF. In both cases it can be abused by a NewGRF today :-)
18:52:23 <Tatsh> meh, cross compilers; don't expect to build big stuff like Qt ;)
18:53:17 <Tatsh> Qt's complicated C++ is really putting it to the test; collect2 is generating incorrect assembly
18:54:51 * Alberth would expect boost to be much more of a problem
18:58:12 <Tatsh> it's better to build it on the original machine and just copy over because those will be multi-arch; i haven't yet got the cross compiler to be multilib
18:58:49 <Tatsh> but you can build each binary separately with each separate compiler than use lipo to combine the binaries together (or libs)
18:58:57 <Alberth> argh, multi-arch binaries :(
18:59:54 <Tatsh> i'm only playing with the idea; in reality i'll just isntall Qt libs via nokia's installer on my mac then copy them over
19:00:18 <planetmaker> Alberth: we do that every day ;-)
19:00:45 <Alberth> planetmaker: not at my system :)
19:01:19 <LordAro> "[19:09:49] <@Alberth> LordAro: it is in the changelog too :)" <-- indeed, as the page is just the changelog copied across :P
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19:04:00 <Rubidium> as if much runs really natively lately... *especially* on Intel x86 processors
19:04:53 <Zuu> Woho, first non-zero index layout/view built by an AI :-)
19:09:07 <Alberth> jvm does not run natively? ;)
19:10:19 <Zuu> Not yet, but I will soon publish a new copy of my patch-queue and then probably a screenshot.
19:10:52 <Zuu> Does there exist a convinient/automated way to export a hg patch queue?
19:11:28 <Zuu> Just take the patches form .hg/patches/.. and rename them to have .patch?
19:11:59 <Zuu> Still, I will probably have to remove the changes to the project files..
19:12:09 * Alberth always gives them a .patch extension while creating them :)
19:12:39 * planetmaker names them *.diff ;-)
19:13:22 <LordAro> not that i'm an expert with mercurial
19:13:24 <Alberth> And I also start with a few numbers, like "10" "20" etc so the order is easy to determine (and 'ls' does the right thing)
19:13:31 <planetmaker> Zuu: in an existing queue use hg qrefresh
19:13:52 <Zuu> qrefresh wouldn't it just update the current patch file?
19:14:08 <planetmaker> what do you mean with 'export'?
19:14:18 <Alberth> eg "10_add_doxygen.patch"
19:14:23 <Zuu> something that is suitable to upload to the forums.
19:14:47 <Alberth> Zuu: use tar or zip or so
19:14:48 <planetmaker> Zuu: the individual patches from .hg/patches are quite suitable, aren't they?
19:14:48 <Tatsh> non-native needs to die
19:14:58 <LordAro> Zuu: "hg diff -r qparent" - outputs all patches in 1 diff
19:14:59 <planetmaker> hm... I'd not recommend tar and zip
19:15:03 <planetmaker> harder to read :-)
19:15:04 <Tatsh> wine > virtualbox + windows
19:15:19 <Rubidium> Alberth: given that x86 ops are an intermediate language for recent Intel x86 CPUs, no... it doesn't run really natively
19:15:26 <Zuu> LordAro: That would make reviewing tha patches harder.
19:15:40 <Alberth> Tatsh: no java, C#, .net, python, perl, and many other languages?
19:15:41 <Tatsh> Rubidium, which recent CPUs?
19:15:52 <Tatsh> keep anything that doesn't use a JIT
19:16:04 <LordAro> Zuu: i would just zip the .hg/patches dir then
19:16:51 <Rubidium> Tatsh: anything with microcode
19:17:18 <Alberth> so what was the last processor that does not have that? :p
19:17:40 <Alberth> maybe an ARM processor?
19:18:56 <Zuu> Oh, and if anyone has been annoyed that they can't pipe output to the Windows copy memory, I have written a small utility for that. I find it quite useful :-)
19:19:14 <Zuu> Eg "hg qseries | cin" and then go and paste it in the browser.
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19:40:15 <Zuu> Ammler: Cool, I'll see if it exist in Cygwin some day. For now I've just sticked my program on the internet so that I can grab it when I need it.
19:40:56 *** literal has joined #openttd
19:41:02 <planetmaker> Zuu, it's obviously a python script... it should work on all OS which have python installed
19:41:07 *** literal is now known as Hinrik
19:41:54 <Hinrik> haven't been here in years
19:44:18 <planetmaker> I'd have to say 'long time no see' doesn't cut it for me... I don't recall a previous one ;-)
19:44:48 <Hinrik> yeah, I don't recognize any of the nicks in here
19:45:05 <planetmaker> that'd be strange, though ;-)
19:45:17 <Terkhen> yes, there are some old nicks here too :)
19:46:04 <LordAro> Hinrik: when were you last here?
19:46:41 <Hinrik> hm, maybe around version 0.3
19:46:42 <frosch123> neither hinrik not literal matches anyone in my logs of the past 4 years :p
19:47:47 <Hinrik> it's definitely been more than that because I added the Icelandic krona, and it has lost considerable value since I did so :)
19:48:18 <Hinrik> 130kr == 1 pound when I added it, now it's closer to 190
19:50:59 <planetmaker> 0.3... that is like stone age ;-)
19:51:10 <Terkhen> I started at 0.6.3 or so :P
19:51:50 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Commit by bjarni :: r305 /trunk (os/macos/plistgen.sh svnup.sh) (2004-09-21 21:19:08 UTC)
19:51:51 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: made the shellscripts executable, so the user do not have to do this manually
19:51:58 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Commit by bjarni :: r311 /trunk (lang/icelandic.txt os/macos/track_starter) (2004-09-23 20:12:51 UTC)
19:51:59 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Added incomplete Icelandic translation (Hinrik)
19:52:00 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Mac: made track_starter executable by default. Needed for midi player
19:53:12 <planetmaker> maybe even mesolithic, not something newer ;-)
19:53:36 <Terkhen> most of the devs active today started later than that
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19:56:10 <orudge> hmm, 0.3 itself was actually only released a month-ish after 0.1
19:56:16 <orudge> took a while to go from 0.3.6 -> 0.4.0 though
19:57:10 <LordAro> mostly due to svn crash?
19:57:14 <orudge> 0.2.0 was released just under a month after
19:57:27 <Rubidium> orudge: relatively speaking... only 4 months between 0.3.6 -> 0.4.0
19:57:27 <orudge> LordAro: no, don't think the SVN crash really delayed anything as such
19:57:45 <orudge> but compared with the rate before, it was slower
19:57:57 <orudge> obviously since then major releases tend to come but once a year ;)
19:58:17 <Rubidium> well, 0.3.0 -> 0.4.0 is ~1 year
19:58:28 <Terkhen> back then we were faster than firefox now :P
19:58:45 <orudge> 0.1.0 -> 0.2.0 was 27 days :)
19:58:54 <LordAro> hmm. did no one _at all_ have a svn mirror when it crashed?
19:59:07 <orudge> LordAro: people had checkouts
19:59:11 <orudge> but no backups of the repository itself
19:59:14 <planetmaker> LordAro: svn doesn't lend itself to mirroring
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19:59:24 <orudge> if we'd been using git then, things would have been different :)
19:59:25 <Rubidium> planetmaker: lies...
19:59:44 <Rubidium> svnsync would work pretty well
20:00:03 <Alberth> so does hgsubversion :p
20:00:28 <Terkhen> those things existed back then? :P
20:01:05 <orudge> hmm, first release of git in April 2005
20:01:12 <orudge> so, yeah, I guess it would have been difficult to be using that then :)
20:01:20 <Terkhen> in 2004 I was starting at university with C, so everything that old sounds like caveman technology to me :P
20:01:37 <Spideh_bnc> so my dedicated server is giving me grief :)
20:02:24 <Spideh_bnc> everytime I restart it a line gets added to the end of the config file [server_bind_addresses] (and random text =) on the line after that
20:02:29 <Alberth> yeah, there was one before RCS, I was just wondering about its name :)
20:02:56 <Alberth> Spideh_bnc: open a window, and throw the server through it
20:03:12 <Spideh_bnc> I would but its in a different country :P
20:03:32 <LordAro> orudge/planetmaker: fair enough :)
20:03:39 <Rubidium> Spideh_bnc: what command line are you using to start OpenTTD?
20:04:10 <Rubidium> and what is the 'random' text?
20:04:27 <Spideh_bnc> actually last time I used openttd -Df and then it added this to the config file
20:04:29 <Spideh_bnc> [server_bind_addresses]
20:05:01 <planetmaker> -Df is no valid option
20:05:08 <Rubidium> then it's basically doing what you asked it to do; start OpenTTD and bind to 'f'
20:05:37 <Rubidium> where 'f' is a (DNS) name for the ip address you want to bind to
20:05:59 <Rubidium> and not starting with -x causes OpenTTD to write the changed settings, such as the bind address to the configuration file upon closing
20:06:31 <Rubidium> planetmaker: -Df is a valid option, it just might not do what you'd expect
20:06:48 <planetmaker> I compared it to -D -f
20:07:53 <planetmaker> which probably was wanted. But you're right of course :-)
20:09:14 <Spideh_bnc> yes that much better
20:10:38 <Spideh_bnc> so if I did openttd -D openttd.cfg it would add "openttd.cfg" to the [server_bind_addresses] aswell right?
20:12:34 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHaus: how's it look to you now?
20:12:40 <Spideh_bnc> great all probs solved. thanks :)
20:12:51 <Elukka> erm. one of the signs is the wrong way, ignore that
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20:50:14 * sagag slaps orudge around a bit with a large fishbot
20:50:24 * sagag slaps avdg around a bit with a large fishbot
20:50:25 * sagag slaps Born_Acorn around a bit with a large fishbot
20:50:42 <planetmaker> @kicks sagag with a large boot
20:50:58 <planetmaker> @kick sagag with a large boot
20:50:58 *** sagag was kicked by DorpsGek (with a large boot)
20:51:04 <planetmaker> for better effect without s
20:51:26 <MNIM> I was browsing through my uploads and I spotted those two.
20:51:37 <Yexo> Zuu: does CluelessPlus have a new home already or is noai.openttd.org still the last version?
20:51:40 <MNIM> slightly more than a hundred years of growth!
20:52:02 <johny> very nice map, congrats
20:52:26 <planetmaker> you sure are in the correct channel, johny?
20:52:29 <Zuu> Yexo: noai.openttd.org is not the last version. I'm not sure if I've created a new project at openttdcoop.org or not of it it only exist in a local hg here.
20:52:39 <Zuu> (as well as tar-files on bananas etc.)
20:52:52 <Yexo> I'm in the process of looking at all projects at noai.openttd.org so we can shut it down
20:52:53 <johny> oh, sorry - I thought I am in the toilet :(
20:53:09 <Yexo> is there still something there you need?
20:53:17 <MNIM> Sadly, the trouble with old maps is that the cities get massively big and I can hardly look at them without having massive lag
20:54:08 <MNIM> and Im now building a new one with even more massive rail usage in mind
20:54:34 <Zuu> The only thing would be the SVN log, but it should be available in my local .svn dir if I ever would be interested in it.
20:55:19 <Yexo> if you want to keep it you can clone with hgsubversion or so
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20:55:26 <MNIM> hmmmmh. in what map did I make that massive quadruple line RORO-Terminus station?
20:57:22 <MNIM> oh yeah, now I remember.
20:57:29 <MNIM> lost all those maps in a major reinstall
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20:59:11 <George> about FIRS russian translation (string that describe amount of cargo produced from cargo delivered). Where should be more strings provided, because of measure units. More detailed report would be provided later.
21:04:05 <Yexo> anyone got a clue who "ac84" is? forum nick would be nice
21:06:48 <George> Yexo: yes, we are currently discussing it on the russian forums
21:07:01 <Yexo> ok, just wanted to make sure you were aware of that version
21:07:36 <Zuu> Yexo: Did you suggest cloning from the remote svn server or the local checkout?
21:07:47 <Yexo> you can't clone from your local checkout
21:07:53 <Yexo> or at least, you won't preserve the history that way
21:08:04 <Yexo> a local svn checkout doesn't have the history
21:08:21 <Zuu> Is there a different URL to use?
21:12:03 <Yexo> TrueBrain: I'll pm-ing/mailing two people that still have a project on the site
21:12:19 <Yexo> might take a while to get hold of them, but afterwards it's just me who'll have to move the last libraries over
21:12:37 <TrueBrain> and why not move over your libs already? :P
21:12:42 <planetmaker> Yexo: we could move the svn repos to the devzone. In principle svn works there, too
21:12:49 <Zuu> Hmm, my username + password don't work. Have tried to type username in all lower case as well.
21:13:09 <Zuu> But maybe blank username is enough to read.
21:13:14 <Yexo> Zuu: it's not your normal openttd password
21:13:24 <Yexo> or at least, it might not be
21:14:19 <Zuu> I though it was, but if it isn't I have no idea what it is.
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21:16:40 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHaus: how does licensing for sprites work? if CETS ends up using something i draw, can i also give it to other people for other sets?
21:17:04 <Yexo> Elukka: if you've drawn it yourself you can always give it to whoever you want under whatever license you want
21:17:25 <Zuu> Yexo: It would be useful. I have found a file in my AppData with my password but it is encrypted some way :-)
21:17:27 <Yexo> CETS is only allowed to use it if you give them permission to use it with their license
21:17:52 <Elukka> so how do i license something if i want to say anyone can use it how they like :P
21:18:31 <Elukka> i don't really care under what license someone distributes something i draw
21:18:48 <Yexo> there are a few caveats though: if CETS uses your sprite under the GPL license (and you're fine with that), than somebody modifies your sprite in CETS (and that version is also GPL), you are only allowed to distribute the modified version as GPL
21:19:06 <Yexo> unless you get permission from the people that modified the sprites to distribute it as something else
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21:28:58 <Ammler> "anyone can use it how they like" <-- is that some kind of BSD license?
21:31:28 <Hinrik> is there a way to make the maximum loan higher than £500k ?
21:32:07 <Hinrik> it's not a lot of money if you want to start in 2037 and make a maglev network :P
21:32:58 <planetmaker> yep. But also in 2037 there are other means of transport
21:39:21 <Elukka> check out those lovely guide pictures they've drawn
21:40:27 <Tatsh> planetmaker, do you use a 32-bit timestamp?
21:40:37 <Tatsh> 2038 = end of the world!
21:40:44 <V453000> Hinrik: just use the money cheat, money is no problem in openttd sooner or later anyway
21:41:00 <Elukka> okay so maybe i can start calling this finished some day soon
21:45:09 <planetmaker> Tatsh: osx is a bsd system... so it uses that probably, too
21:45:20 <planetmaker> but ... does it matter now?
21:45:54 <Tatsh> actually i have a site that uses 32-bit timestamps
21:46:09 <Tatsh> my boss tried to set a date to sometime past 2038 and i had to explain to him why it didn't work
21:46:35 <Tatsh> it does handle the date issue with an error and doesn't 'crash' which is good; i hadn't even tried it
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23:34:33 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHaus : if you're there, can you tell if this is anywhere close to CETS standards now? i fixed the problems i could see and all the sprites are done now
23:46:21 <planetmaker> good start, Swissfan91 :-)
23:46:32 <planetmaker> I'd increase the light / shadow effect a bit more
23:46:40 <planetmaker> and the one clock is not circular
23:47:16 <planetmaker> the shadow difference on the green roof is imho ok. But the the walls don't show that
23:47:54 <planetmaker> and... are you sure you want the "no derivative"?
23:48:12 <Swissfan91> sorry, im here now
23:48:32 <Swissfan91> by increase light/shadow, you mean make the dark darker and the light lighter?
23:48:48 <planetmaker> mostly shadow darker
23:49:07 <planetmaker> you virtually have no shadow
23:49:48 <Swissfan91> so you're saying the green roof is better?
23:50:27 <planetmaker> it has some light effect as opposed to the rest
23:52:04 <Swissfan91> I did make an attempt with the rest. The grey seems to merge together.
23:58:11 <Swissfan91> I've edited the post. Is that better for the roof?
continue to next day ⏵
