IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-06
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00:10:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r22898 /trunk/src/core/bitmath_func.hpp: -Codechange: use MSVC compiler intrinsics for byte swapping
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09:45:50 <George> hi. FIRS question. Can the translation change cargo units? Instead of crates, can supplys be measured in pieces? I mean can the text be "2 supplies" instead of "2 creates of supplies"?
09:46:34 <Yexo> if done consistently, I don't see why not?
10:00:46 <George> How? STR_CARGO_UNIT_FMSP :{SIGNED_WORD} упаковок сельхозтоваров
10:01:37 <George> STR_CARGO_UNIT_FMSP :{SIGNED_WORD} агротехсредств ?
10:01:47 <Yexo> just use :{SIGNED_WORD} supplies ?
10:02:44 <George> And is it possible to change the weight and reduce the amount?
10:03:12 <George> For example have something like {SIGNED_WORD/10} агротехсредств ?
10:03:24 <Yexo> not possible, there is no support for that in nfo
10:04:13 <George> And whom may I suggest to change the measure for supplies
10:04:38 <Yexo> although I'm not sure it's possible to change this at all
10:04:54 <Yexo> that is, without changing the amount of supplies that is produced
10:05:35 <George> Would it be too bad to change it?
10:06:06 <Yexo> supplies production is already low
10:06:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the game can only handle smaller weights, 1 unit of cargo must be a fraction of 1t
10:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't have "1 Tractor" unit that has a weight of 15t
10:07:18 <George> Eddi|zuHause: ECS vehicles weighs 2,5 tons
10:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then i don't know
10:07:41 <George> You can have up to 16t per unit
10:07:56 <Yexo> George: ah, you only want to change the weight of the supplies?
10:08:31 <George> Increase the weight and reduce the amount of units per vehicles
10:08:58 <Yexo> is there a value for the latter in nfo?
10:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there is an automatic conversion factor
10:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> during refitting
10:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> which the newgrf can ignore, though
10:11:39 <George> so, what do you think about this idea? Should I contact andy or not?
10:11:41 <Eddi|zuHause> weight multiplier is applied to capacity, unless you use callback 15
10:13:51 <Terkhen> George: besides having to modify all NewGRFs that support FIRS, I don't have a strong opinion on this matter
10:14:48 <George> only CB 15 calls should be changed ;)
10:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> sane people use CB 36 ;)
10:15:41 <Terkhen> it's work nonetheless
10:16:21 <George> Yes, it would require some change, but I suppose it is not insane ;)
10:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> George: if you can run this past andythenorth, i say go ahead ;)
10:16:44 <George> You mean you like the idea?
10:17:20 <George> Yexo, Terkhen, what do you think?
10:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause> might need a few tweaks to cargo production, though
10:18:32 <Terkhen> I think that farm supplies with vehicle-like weight will look strange when coming from a fertiliser plant :)
10:19:03 <Terkhen> same thing happens now with small stuff weight coming from "vehicles"
10:19:09 <Terkhen> so I don't have a strong opinion either way
10:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that comes with the genericity of the cargo. it's equally strange that a tractor weighs 1t
10:19:42 <George> why? A BIG box of fertilizer ;)
10:19:47 <Yexo> George: it would require some careful tweaks to the cargo production, but over I like it
10:21:21 <planetmaker> what weight should a unit of fertilizer have in your eyes?
10:22:01 <George> a unit of farm supplies. about 10t
10:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> fertilizer is usually bulk cargo
10:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so it doesn't really matter
10:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> George: the interesting part about that is that you can't use the HEQS Gmund Mog for supplies anymore (2t capacity)
10:23:23 <planetmaker> IMHO 10t is too much
10:23:30 <planetmaker> it would not fit with fertilizer at all
10:23:56 <planetmaker> or it would make sense to deliver 3 units of fertilizer per year and farm or so
10:24:01 <Terkhen> I want to use the gmund mog :P
10:24:17 <Terkhen> I usually have a swarm of those things moving everywhere when I play FIRS
10:24:21 <planetmaker> 10t is fine if you assume FMSP to be a tractor
10:24:27 <planetmaker> but that's not the only interpretation
10:24:54 <planetmaker> what is the benefit of changing it from 1unit=1t to 1unit=10t?
10:25:25 <George> planetmaker: And what would be wrong with fertilizer? Usually you deliver a truck of them IRL, that is several (5-8) tons of cargo
10:25:43 <planetmaker> that's exactly what you do
10:26:09 <George> the benefit is to have a truck ful loaded instead of going almost empty
10:26:18 <planetmaker> but it means IMHO to decrease the granularity to too big units
10:26:44 <planetmaker> I could go with like 3t
10:27:03 <planetmaker> would be roughly a m^3 of fertilizer
10:27:19 <George> 3t is to little for a truck ;)
10:27:50 <hanf> if on the webtranslator there's no "needs translator" does that mean someone is working on it? when I get back to uni I could do faroese and finish off the chinese if necessary, but not if someone is working on it!
10:27:51 <George> I want to make a delivery more realistic
10:27:52 <planetmaker> A big truck should carry more than one supply
10:27:55 <Terkhen> that size is perfect for delivering supplies
10:28:02 <planetmaker> A gmund can carry one or two units
10:28:15 <planetmaker> but a full-sized truck should carry more than one, two units
10:28:31 <Terkhen> hanf: IIRC the "needs translator" appears when more than 100 strings are missing a translation
10:28:49 <planetmaker> there's a config file setting for that
10:28:57 <Terkhen> faroese would welcome a translator :)
10:29:04 <planetmaker> Mine is at one :-)
10:29:28 <Terkhen> both chinese variants have some recent strings missing
10:29:42 <hanf> Terkhen: ah okay. I don't speak faroese but have plenty of faroese friends at uni :P
10:29:45 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I think the gmund with a capacity of one or two supplies, that's good. But a full truck could well deliver 5 ... 10 units
10:29:46 <hanf> yeah I'm looking at that now
10:30:34 <planetmaker> The units fmsp transported in ogfx+ sets is set to low anyway
10:30:47 <planetmaker> and that is easy to do for vehicle sets, George
10:31:01 <planetmaker> it's thus just a matter of weight
10:31:56 <George> that is why I suggest to make it larger
10:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking around 4t per units
10:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> a railway wagon with 30t capacity would then carry 7 units
10:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> a truck with 12t capacity would carry 3 units
10:34:35 <Terkhen> as long as the gmund can carry a single unit, I don't mind the changes
10:34:41 <Terkhen> I don't want this to break my way of playing FIRS :P
10:35:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how the rounding is done
10:35:10 <George> well, I do not say 10t is the best value, I only suggest to make weight larger and capacity smaller
10:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, implement HEQS with cb15 to force minimum 1 unit ;)
10:40:31 <Yexo> George: if you're seriously looking at the Russian translation for FIRS, you might want to add plurals/gender/cases support too
10:42:03 <planetmaker> Terkhen, yes, the gmund IMHO should be the unit-definition for supplies
10:42:16 <George> sorry, I'm not familar with the way to code them, but we are currently have a discussion on the russion forums about FIRS translation, so I hope that we would do it by the team.
10:43:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the german translation uses genders, and the hungarian translation uses cases, if you need examples
10:44:10 <George> planetmaker: > gmund IMHO should be the unit-definition for supplies - I think not ;) it should hust have the capacity 1 unit. But the weight should be counted based on average truck, having 2-3 units capacity
10:44:26 <George> so that was the reason for 10t
10:44:42 <planetmaker> George, and there I disagree
10:44:48 <planetmaker> An average truck should have more capacity
10:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> rv capacities in the game are generally higher than "realistic"
10:45:19 <planetmaker> which IMHO is a good thing for FIRS
10:46:09 <planetmaker> The big trucks carry more than just a bit
10:46:19 <planetmaker> and a unit can be less than a full tractor ;-)
10:46:32 <George> what is the profit to deliver 10, if the industry needs 1. You can't say the truck to unload 1 unit of cargo, can't you?
10:46:37 <planetmaker> I don't consider tractor the unit
10:46:57 <planetmaker> George, industries can use more than one
10:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> George: industries might require more than 1 unit in the future
10:47:16 <planetmaker> And it will in the future also become interesting to deliver more
10:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the suggestion was to increase it with the production multiplier
10:47:53 <George> The max required amount should define the truck capacity ;)
10:48:29 <George> Eddi|zuHause: with the production multiplier - how much?
10:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> details might be tunable
10:49:09 <planetmaker> I don't think that's how it works... max amount = truck amount
10:50:35 <planetmaker> though of course it's an indicator. But there are too many ways to play
10:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> in my YACD/FIRS game i put one FMSP wagon to the pick up trains, and had trains with larger capacity run through the major hubs to distribute the supplies
10:52:29 <planetmaker> yup, that's how I used it, too
10:52:48 <planetmaker> full supply-only trains among hubs.
10:53:05 <planetmaker> and locally either that way. Or trains which visited all industries subsequently
10:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> problem was that it was difficult to determine whether an industry gets supplies every month
10:54:21 <planetmaker> yes. That's one of the things we plan to make easier. By somewhat introducing something similar to a stockpile for that
10:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that was kinda the source of my suggestion
11:01:53 <George> Andy wrote "I quite like this idea. I think it could work well"
11:05:28 <planetmaker> he hasn't yet thought it through, I'm sure ;-)
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11:43:02 <Eddi|zuHause> when was the last time andy thought _anything_ through? ;)
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13:32:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22899 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Add: Allow towns to build bridges over canals and rivers.
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15:08:32 <Elukka> i may have asked this yesterday but i was half asleep and don't remember :D
15:08:38 <Elukka> are there train sets with full, graphical support for FIRS?
15:10:01 <Terkhen> besides that, maybe 2cc
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15:10:17 <Yexo> depends on the version of FIRS
15:10:25 <Yexo> for current trunk probably none
15:10:33 <Terkhen> really? what was added?
15:10:39 <Terkhen> I only remember alcohol
15:10:43 <Yexo> sugarbeet / sugarcane split
15:10:56 <Terkhen> I'm going to test what happens with ogfx-rv now
15:11:17 <Yexo> most likely supported, just without special graphics, hence no "full, graphical support"
15:13:05 <Terkhen> yes, sugar beet looks like coal in ogfx-rv, and probably the same happens with ogfx-trains
15:13:10 <Terkhen> so... probably none :P
15:14:47 <Elukka> for most cargos it'd probably look better if missing cargo graphics had a medium brown color than black coal
15:15:19 <Terkhen> at least in OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles, the idea is to have full support for all cargos
15:15:26 <Terkhen> black coal is very noticeable
15:15:32 <Terkhen> so bugs and omissions are easy to spot :)
15:16:06 <Elukka> my favorite train sets are dbset and nars and both are coal everywhere
15:16:30 <Terkhen> dbset has a FIRS addon, but IIRC it is quite outdated
15:16:53 <Elukka> better than nothing i suppose
15:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> DBSetXL 0.9 has a prospected release date of 11.11.11
15:17:17 <Terkhen> and from what I read back then, the addon will be only updated once that FIRS reaches cargo stability :P
15:17:26 <Elukka> dbset has ongoing development? :O
15:17:45 <Elukka> heh, i can see why they'd want to do that
15:17:57 <Terkhen> is proper support for all FIRS cargos planned for it?
15:18:12 <Elukka> how hard would it be to get at the sprites and just change the color of stuff?
15:18:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, semi-proper...
15:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause> MB and andy "agreed to disagree" on certain parts :p
15:19:04 <Terkhen> Elukka: that's what I'm going to do now for sugar cane and sugar beet on ogfx-rv... recolouring of existing cargo sprites
15:19:13 <Terkhen> but for stuff that is not bulk, modifying sprites is more complicated
15:19:29 <Elukka> that's what i'd like to do for dbset and maybe nars
15:19:46 <Elukka> boxcars and such don't matter much but open bulk cargo is really noticeable
15:19:53 <Yexo> with dbset it's not so useful since you won't be allowed to distribute the result
15:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if i read things right, the problematic part are "supplies", which might get generic boxes. other cargos should be fine
15:20:47 <Elukka> i'd just like to make a quick fix for myself :D
15:21:24 <Terkhen> yes... that's the problem with restrictive licenses
15:21:30 <Terkhen> a lot of work is never shared
15:21:46 <Terkhen> you might want to help with CETS :P
15:22:16 <Yexo> central-european train set
15:23:02 <Eddi|zuHause> bulk cargos might be done by recolour tables
15:23:08 <planetmaker> Yexo: ogfx+trains already supports it in nightly ;-)
15:23:16 <Terkhen> recolour tables? what's that? :P
15:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> 't looked into the details yet
15:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> cargo wagon scheme is kinda low on the priority list
15:24:03 <Elukka> i think i'd be more familiar with making 3D models and rendering those like people do for 32bpp graphics but i suppose i could draw decent sprites
15:24:23 <Elukka> can't hurt to try, at least
15:24:39 <Terkhen> some people makes 3D models and then converts them to 8bpp sprites somehow
15:25:03 <Terkhen> after that, they tweak the sprites
15:25:08 <Elukka> i'm not sure if that's worth the effort since the sprites are so small
15:25:11 <Elukka> unless you already have the models
15:25:13 <planetmaker> but ogfx+trains takes just the raw sugar sprites. no variation so far
15:25:34 <Terkhen> ogfx-rv does not have sprites for either type of raw sugar cargo
15:25:53 <planetmaker> trains have just some colour variation on the bulk
15:26:05 <planetmaker> but not recolour sprite variation ;-)
15:26:19 <Elukka> suppose i wanted to try drawing sprites for CETS... where would i find out what's needed, and what style the existing sprites are so i could try to emulate that?
15:26:24 <Terkhen> I could release a new version of ogfx-rv in time for FIRS testing
15:26:37 <Terkhen> but I'll probably play more with eGRVTS 2 than with my own trucks :P
15:26:59 <Yexo> Elukka: ask Eddi|zuHause
15:29:45 <Elukka> oh, those should simplify things
15:30:03 <Elukka> are those... templates for curved track?
15:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the length of the wagons are not fully decided yet
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15:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it's either 24m=16lu or 24m=12lu
15:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (1 standard TTD wagon = 8lu)
15:31:11 <Elukka> you can do longer wagons these days?
15:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a bit hacky :)
15:31:46 <Elukka> it's something i've wanted to see for a long time
15:33:30 <Elukka> i have some german umbauwagen models (as in physical models) handy that would make for good sprite drawing reference for me :P
15:34:00 <Elukka> so do both locomotives and wagons attempt to have realistic proportions?
15:34:51 <Elukka> hm, besides looking better that should make drawing a bit easier
15:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> oberhümer wants to draw to the 24m=12lu proportions
15:36:02 <Elukka> so the 12 angles you have in the templates...
15:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the smallest unit available in the game for movement, bounding boxes, etc.
15:36:16 <Elukka> is someone developing actual curved track?
15:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
15:36:49 <Elukka> why so many angles then?
15:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> because with only 4 views, the long wagons stick too far out
15:38:04 <Elukka> i'm having trouble picturing how the 12 angles work with 8 track angles though
15:38:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i have an idea how to do matching curved tracks, but it's kind of not a priority, and current railtype specs don't allow enough variables
15:38:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: download the grf and check it out
15:39:12 <Elukka> i can't compile the patch D:
15:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> except the full-tile wagons, most things should still work with unpatched openttd
15:40:12 <Elukka> hey, assuming i can get anything done
15:40:18 <Elukka> these cars were permanently coupled in pairs
15:40:26 <Elukka> should that be two separate cars or one long car in game?
15:40:39 <Elukka> hm. i suppose two separate cars so articulation works
15:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, articulated should be separate
15:42:22 <Elukka> one more question before i try doing anything... how do i get the scale right
15:42:27 <Elukka> are the boxes in the template absolute bounding boxes?
15:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'm quite sure our set has some distinction to theirs
15:42:33 <Elukka> like, would a wagon's curved roof go under or above the box
15:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the green boxes are mere suggestions. 2px=1m is oberhümers suggested scale
15:44:43 <Elukka> now i have work to do both on physical and pixel trains :p
15:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference between the 16lu=24m or 12lu=24m is whether to take the / view as to-scale and the - view as elongated, or to see the - view as to scale and the / view shortened
15:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause> TTD-scale-problems are ugly
15:45:45 <Elukka> i suppose the most important thing is consistency
15:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> be careful with railway models, they're sometimes not fully to scale either
15:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. H0 is originally 1:87, but some wagons are shortened to 1:100
15:46:48 <Elukka> the longer coaches tend not to be
15:48:58 <Elukka> i've seen many a heated discussion on shortened H0 coaches :)
15:52:46 <Elukka> erm, where can i find the cets grf?
15:53:31 <Eddi|zuHause> eurgh... "the usual places"
15:54:24 <Elukka> i was trying to dig in the repository
15:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause> try r140, the longest wagons should work better there
15:59:28 <Elukka> oh that's terribly pretty
16:00:16 <Elukka> gonna practice drawing something
16:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle lifetimes are not implemented properly yet, so best used with "vehicles never expire"
16:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> also check out the GRF parameters
16:07:47 <Elukka> do i just pick whichever template fits the real rolling stock best?
16:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you take the real vehicle length, e.g. 14m, and divide that by the scale 24/12 or 24/16. so you have 14/24*12 = 7 or 14/24*16 = 9.3 (rounded to 10)
16:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so you take the 7lu template if you want to stick to oberhümer's scale
16:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, there was no final decision yet
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16:14:25 <planetmaker> hm, no final decision albeit oberhuemer already draws?
16:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, he did that on his own risk
16:18:07 <planetmaker> For no good reason other than "if longer, then properly" I prefer the 16 lu solution.
16:19:30 <Elukka> i'm gonna stick to ober's scale
16:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm not too strong on the opinion anymore. the "problem" is both work out equally well in my head :)
16:21:52 <Elukka> i like as realistic proportions as possible but i'll just go along with whatever's being used
16:22:12 <planetmaker> well... what's the argument for one or the other? Or why not 8lu?
16:26:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the argument against 8lu is that the shorter vehicles get too short, causing offset issues and lack of details in graphics
16:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> even in the 16lu case i have problems getting the 3lu/4lu tenders to fit in the movement scheme
16:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> for very short vehicles, the turning point is outside the vehicle
16:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes for some odd effects in curves
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16:34:14 <planetmaker> hm. But that might probably be rather fixed in OpenTTD?
16:34:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but this is problematic, as it may potentially break existing grfs which abuse the feature or implement countermeasures
16:35:55 <planetmaker> would need checking
16:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it needs a flag to switch the behaviour from old to new
16:37:28 <planetmaker> or that... though if it breaks no newgrf, it can be changed
16:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (much like 32px vehicles)
16:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: any grf making use of var45 is affected
16:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> var45 has existed for years
16:39:15 <planetmaker> it has. But I'm not sure how many sets really would use it
16:39:30 <planetmaker> I can imagine definitely not more than a hand full
16:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not the point
16:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> alone the existence of LV5-test grfs is enough
16:43:06 <Elukka> is the bottom of the template box the part that touches the rails?
16:44:16 <Elukka> hm. with 12 angles it might just be worth it to make a real quick 3D model first...
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16:52:29 <Swissfan91> how's your day going?
16:53:30 <Swissfan91> I'm finally getting around to some of the crazy projects I make threads about
16:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have nothing to complain about, you are dead.
16:54:31 <Terkhen> if I were dead, I'm pretty sure I would have a lot of things to complain about
16:55:09 <Swissfan91> good to see this sort of conversation follows me in xD
16:57:18 <Elukka> um. which direction should locomotives point in on the templates?
16:57:28 <Swissfan91> man, I wish I could draw for OTTD
16:57:45 <Elukka> hey i can't either but i'm pooping some pixels and hoping something decent comes out
16:58:02 <Swissfan91> what're you drawing?
16:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: in the first sprite, the top is the front and the bottom the back. the rest follows from there
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17:06:24 <Swissfan91> Elukka: I see, what set is that for?
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17:08:47 <Elukka> CETS.. hopefully, if i can make anything up to decent standards :D
17:10:13 <Swissfan91> oh right, thats great. I'd love to see that set happen.
17:10:18 <z-MaTRiX> fnx="./test.txt";newfs=`dd if="$fnx" bs=64k skip=0 2>/dev/null | gzip -9 | dd bs=64k seek=0 conv=notrunc of="$fnx" 2>&1 | grep "bytes.*copied" | sed -re 's;^([0-9][0-9]*) .*;\1;Ig'`;dd if=/dev/null bs=1 count=0 seek="$newfs" of="$fnx" 2>/dev/null;mv "$fnx" "$fnx.gz"
17:13:11 <z-MaTRiX> gzip-in-place for fun <;
17:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> 2>&1 sounds like a dangerous thing to do in a pipe
17:14:58 <z-MaTRiX> hm, that should redirect stderr to stdout
17:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are ways to directly grep stderr
17:19:50 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX: english only
17:20:28 <z-MaTRiX> __ln__<< where do you see other?
17:20:46 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX: 'į' is not an english word
17:21:23 <Elukka> sprite drawing is infectious
17:21:32 <Elukka> i mentioned it on an unrelated channel and now this guy is drawing ICEs
17:22:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ICEs are the trickiest part of the set... i have no clue how to do them properly
17:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> we need vehicles that are both articulated and dualheaded
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17:25:54 <Swissfan91> if only we had keen drawers at the Swiss set :P
17:26:31 <V453000> if only we had more drawers at the NUTS set :P
17:26:45 <pjpe> if only that guy on 2cc would come back from the dead
17:26:52 <Swissfan91> if only we had more drawers :P
17:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if only we had more nuts at the drawerset
17:27:23 <Elukka> i'm happy if i can be useful :P
17:28:10 <Swissfan91> its annoying in some respects that we have so many train sets about Europe, and they cannot be merged into two. A European Livery set, and a European CC set
17:28:28 <Swissfan91> i know people enjoy having one about their respective country (Dutch, DB set etc)
17:28:32 <Terkhen> you have the 2cc train set :P
17:29:33 <Swissfan91> indeed, which is a very good set
17:30:01 <Elukka> hmm... i guess nobody will count individual windows :P
17:30:10 <Elukka> umwauwagen have 7, but the sprite looks more like the real thing with 6
17:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> err... i'm sure they do :p
17:31:01 <V453000> it isnt too easy to add/take away a window on the few pixel space you have :)
17:31:58 <Elukka> not mine, but the guy i mentioned is doing his first sprite work too
17:34:10 <Elukka> hm. i suppose curved roofs should have some shading
17:34:39 <Elukka> which direction does the sun shine from in ttd world again?
17:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> ask andy, he has done some research on it
17:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's from the lower right, at a high angle
17:38:07 <V453000> I have that feeling, too
17:40:31 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< im not so sure, standard unix tools take standard input as default
17:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: you have named pipes and stuff, you can do all sorts of funny plummery
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17:41:32 <z-MaTRiX> you mean using a fifo file?
17:41:53 <z-MaTRiX> redirecting stderr seemed straight forward
17:42:26 <Elukka> okay i guess the windows should be darker than the car body
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22900 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt esperanto.txt german.txt romanian.txt):
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by Yexo
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: esperanto - 9 changes by Ailanto
17:45:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by kkmic
17:46:33 <Elukka> hey, eddi, what about variants like first class and dining cars?
17:46:43 <Elukka> they are pretty nice in dbset but i have no idea if cets is planning to do that sort of thing
17:49:52 <z-MaTRiX> howcome crc32 sum util is not included in coreutils?
17:50:21 <z-MaTRiX> it is old, and ca nbe faked, but still in use...
17:51:37 <Elukka> contrast is kinda hard to manage... since the wagon itself is all so medium greyish green
17:52:37 <frosch123> z-MaTRiX: everyone uses md5 today for checking corruption
17:52:53 <frosch123> or sha-(various numbers)
17:53:02 <z-MaTRiX> btw my preference is sha512sum
17:53:17 <z-MaTRiX> but totalcmd splits files and checksums crc32
17:53:43 <Elukka> first shot! kinda hard to see :D
17:53:47 <Elukka> if anyone has any suggestions, shoot
17:54:03 <Elukka> i used colors from the livery template
17:58:24 <Elukka> this is basically a modernish (60s-80s) wagon but the length is only 13 meters as it was rebuilt out of ancient coaches
17:58:31 <Elukka> so i used the closest template
17:58:46 <Elukka> it was quite prolific in germany i understand
18:00:13 <Elukka> so you don't really have short and long coaches separately?
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18:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: naturally the wagons get longer over time, as that was their real development
18:05:49 <Elukka> germany is a bit of a special case as they had short wagons up to the 80s
18:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> just if a wagon is twice as long, it gets twice the capacity
18:06:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the capacity-to-size ratio doesn't get larger over time
18:06:39 <Elukka> alongside longer coaches of course
18:07:00 <Masa> great game, love the visuals and audio ... but .. FCKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT PLACING RAILWAYS
18:07:10 <Masa> its so broken and rage inducing i cant even
18:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> great introduction.
18:08:12 <Masa> seriously i put tracks and when im close to getting where i want .. RED RAIL
18:09:12 <Masa> somehow placing tracks can modify terrain it itself and then i get "land facing in wrong direction" or some bs when i attempt to connect the two ends of my track
18:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so then move the terrain?
18:10:09 <Masa> anyway, games great just saying that its a major upset for me coming to this. i am trying to enjoy it but this is just bad first user experience
18:10:27 <Alberth> thank you so much for sharing
18:11:02 <Masa> no problem, i will feel better until i try building railways again
18:11:48 <frosch123> just start an ai, and it will build the rails
18:12:02 <Terkhen> create a flat scenario and play on it :)
18:13:19 <Masa> after i buy a train in a depot, i expect to be able to find that train again when i click the depot, but it just disappears from the list
18:13:19 <Elukka> i think your problem might be you're trying to build diagonal tracks on slopes
18:13:44 <Masa> the consequence is, theres also no way to delete the train and destroy the depot in case you place the depot the wrong way
18:14:04 <frosch123> you have very interesting problems :)
18:14:06 <Masa> at least i could not figure out to sell the train from the vehicle list
18:14:08 <pjpe> you can sell trains when they're stopped in depots
18:14:21 <Masa> nope, it asks me to pull the train from the list into the icon
18:14:26 <Masa> but the train is not in the list
18:14:37 <pjpe> tell it to turn around and head for the depot
18:14:47 <Alberth> train is not stopped?
18:14:57 <Masa> the train could not even leave the depot because the depot was facing the wrong way -.-
18:15:01 <Terkhen> order the train to go back to the depot
18:15:14 <Terkhen> and trains don't go outside depots on their own, you have to order them to start
18:15:23 <Terkhen> I have to go, see you tomorrow :)
18:16:07 <Alberth> Masa: stopped is not the same as not being able to leave the depot
18:16:14 <Masa> from my point of view the train should always be in the depot list, but whatever. i ll try it again
18:16:31 <Elukka> the train is always in the depot list if it is in the depot
18:16:36 <Elukka> even if it's only partially in
18:17:12 <Masa> well i guess it makes sense if you have a whole network with several depots
18:17:29 <Elukka> um, yeah, it's of course only in the list of the particular depot the train is in
18:17:29 <Masa> but if you only have one railway and one depot i kinda expected it to always show there you know
18:18:07 <Alberth> it is always in the list of trains
18:22:22 <z-MaTRiX> is this a bug in ls ?
18:22:31 <z-MaTRiX> ls: unrecognized prefix: rs
18:22:45 <z-MaTRiX> ls: unparsable value for LS_COLORS environment variable
18:22:45 <z-MaTRiX> ls: 40g.img.gz: Value too large for defined data type
18:25:16 <Alberth> sounds like messedup LS_COLORS env var
18:25:47 <Alberth> ls -l --color=none 40g.img.gz
18:25:49 <Masa> by the way, should i include the depot in my bus route ?
18:25:51 <z-MaTRiX> it displays all other files in dir, but skips that one...
18:26:14 <Alberth> also other .gz files?
18:30:04 <z-MaTRiX> but if the "40g.img.gz" file is 0 bytes, the value too large error disappears
18:32:15 <z-MaTRiX> something is not cool here, maybe system needs runlevel 6
18:32:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22901 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix (r22767): The river density dropdown was missing in the 'play heightmap' window.
18:33:02 <Alberth> I am afraid you have to dig in the env var string to figure out what is wrong
18:33:37 <z-MaTRiX> just recently wrote some long script that killed the terminal
18:33:49 <z-MaTRiX> maybe that did something ;/
18:34:21 <z-MaTRiX> though it was in another terminal recently closed...
18:38:37 <z-MaTRiX> no, assumed there was some reserved variable name in it, and mc got killed after script run
18:39:44 <Elukka> hmm drawing the diagonals is where it gets hard
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19:36:50 <sortkrudt> ok. totally irrelevant question but! favourite beer?
19:40:19 <V453000> hi SmatZ btw :p still alive?
19:40:20 <Eddi|zuHause> not that big on beer myself
19:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> most of the time Köstritzer
19:42:01 <sortkrudt> urqueell. is that from ur country? havent' seen it, but dont like überbitter beer.
19:42:09 <sortkrudt> I love killkenny/guiness and dark, dark beer
19:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Pilsner Urquell is from Pilsen, obviously
19:42:56 <frosch123> and obviously the origin of every "pils"
19:43:21 <sortkrudt> köstritzer is awesome german beer. i have to say. dont have it in norway tho
19:43:46 <XeryusTC> oh, there is always Hertog Jan Grand Prestige btw
19:44:08 <sortkrudt> i like local brewereries.
19:44:12 <XeryusTC> one huge kick to the head but so damn tasty
19:44:18 <sortkrudt> killkenny is awesome
19:44:19 <frosch123> haha, when i was in norway everyone drank warsteiner... some beer which i cannot remember to have seen being drunk in germany :p
19:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: do all your beers have such weird names? :=
19:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i've only ever seen Warsteiner in commercial spots... never seen it anywhere
19:45:45 <XeryusTC> i have seen 50+ empty warsteiner cases next to 50+ empty heineken cases at a lan party once :P
19:46:01 <XeryusTC> actually, they were build into one giant pyramid :D
19:46:02 <sortkrudt> beer is somewhat luxuary in norway. about 5 euro per beer-can
19:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't seen beer cans in ages
19:46:27 <sortkrudt> maybe 3 euro for cheap ones. or 2,5 for the crappy ones
19:46:38 <sortkrudt> well. beer in can is OK if its lager. better in can
19:46:47 <XeryusTC> cheepest you can get here is like 30 cent/can
19:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> 20x0,5l cost around 10-15€ here
19:47:20 <frosch123> yeah, we were told norwegians would be upset, if we woudl bring a present with < 60%
19:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so you brought Stroh 80? :)
19:47:42 <sortkrudt> yes. above 60% is defined as drugs in norway
19:47:49 <XeryusTC> i was about to mention Stroh xD
19:48:20 <frosch123> stroh is mainly known for "Warum liegt hier Stroh rum?" :p
19:48:28 <XeryusTC> i have this bottle of Captain Morgan Original sitting next to me :o
19:48:42 <sortkrudt> captain morgan. known.
19:48:54 <V453000> stroh is undrinkable :D
19:49:16 <sortkrudt> many people from germany here?
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19:49:46 <sortkrudt> i have a girlfriend from germany
19:49:55 <sortkrudt> tahts my only relation
19:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> pics or it didn't happen!
19:50:20 <XeryusTC> i had german i high school
19:50:23 <frosch123> yeah, "in germany" would have meant something different :p
19:50:43 <XeryusTC> how's that for a connection :P
19:50:54 <XeryusTC> german being forced upon you, again
19:50:56 <sortkrudt> she's a lovely girl.
19:51:03 <__ln__> sortkrudt: does she know you?
19:51:35 <sortkrudt> lolz. know me! lolz
19:52:12 <frosch123> hmm, that's the second time in a few days that image is linked here :p
19:52:21 <sortkrudt> yea. and I'm all responsible
19:52:35 <sortkrudt> once they were known for their sense of humour!
19:52:36 <frosch123> you posted it also the other times?
19:55:34 <__ln__> unfair, we have only episodes up to season 13
20:02:32 <frosch123> damn the "german jokes" are easier to understand when reading the english subtext :p
20:09:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
20:10:57 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 23 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 48 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Bjarni> thanks
20:12:08 <sortkrudt> any funny german saying i can say to my girlfirend aus deautchland?
20:12:38 <__ln__> sortkrudt: "Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!"
20:12:59 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
20:13:07 <sortkrudt> what does 'knüllbar' means?
20:13:34 <sortkrudt> in norwegian it means: "fuckable".
20:14:37 <sortkrudt> du mich auch scherzkeks
20:14:56 <__ln__> Bjarni: bots don't lie. (on the other hand, DorpsGek doesn't "see" people when they visit the channel but don't talk)
20:15:10 <hanf> I guess this channel is some kind of german love-in
20:15:39 <Bjarni> why all this German loving?
20:15:54 <sortkrudt> cause we love the motherland!
20:15:55 * Bjarni got a phonecall from Germany today
20:16:02 <sortkrudt> nein. ze vaterland!
20:17:54 <__ln__> Bjarni: what did germany want from you?
20:19:01 <Bjarni> they told me it's ok to come back xD
20:19:06 <hanf> I quite enjoy some german bands, that's about it I think. the language is rather nice too!
20:20:49 *** LordAro has joined #openttd
20:25:07 <Swissfan91> is anyone on here a dab hand with MS Visio?
20:30:56 <Elukka> want to make sure i'm not missing anything
20:33:41 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
20:34:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22902 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix: The name of the heightmap glitches in the 'play heightmap' window.
20:42:59 <Bjarni> bahh.... my log is too big. It's still not done opening the document
20:43:23 <__ln__> Master Bjarni, what's up?
20:43:43 <Bjarni> I wondered when I last showed up in the channel
20:44:04 <Bjarni> meaning the application have been trying to open the txt file for like 20 minutes now
20:44:18 <Bjarni> Mar 25 14:14:12 --- Topic for #openttd set by wiggo at Wed Mar 17 23:58:48
20:45:58 <frosch123> did you switch to windows?
20:46:08 <frosch123> or is there no 'tail' on osx? :p
20:46:38 <Bjarni> and got what I wanted within seconds
20:46:52 <Bjarni> as usual, using anything with a GUI is slower
20:47:02 <Bjarni> and in fact I was here in July
20:49:11 <__ln__> Bjarni: but didn't say nothing?
20:49:37 <Bjarni> most likely I said something
20:49:47 <Bjarni> but it's possible it was just PMs
20:50:38 <Bjarni> it takes 26 seconds to cat my log file
20:50:45 <Bjarni> and display everything in the terminal
20:51:07 <frosch123> how long does it take for you to read it?
20:51:18 <frosch123> can you please measure that
20:52:56 <Bjarni> what is the command for word count and linecount?
20:55:42 <Bjarni> $ wc openTTD-#openttd.txt
20:55:42 <Bjarni> 1292188 14439294 88676336 openTTD-#openttd.txt
20:55:46 <Bjarni> could take a while to read
20:59:22 <Elukka> sunlight doesn't shine from the upper left in openttd, it's from the upper right
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21:00:12 <frosch123> the direction of sunlight in openttd is as consistent as the direction of wind
21:00:40 <Elukka> if i was really, really lazy i'd just mirror my sprites
21:00:58 <Bjarni> that logfile is the size of 30,5 lord of the rings
21:01:42 <Bjarni> meaning I can read the 3 books and multiply the time by 30 and then I have an estimate of how long it takes to read the log
21:02:01 <__ln__> a lot of it is joins and parts
21:02:36 <Bjarni> there is a lot of joining and parting in LotR too
21:02:46 <Bjarni> joining in Fellowship of the Ring
21:04:19 <Elukka> i bet now i can't unsee that sunlight direction isn't consistent
21:05:42 <Bjarni> Elukka: did you see the Mythbusters episode about the moon landing?
21:06:16 <Bjarni> did you understand why the shadows didn't go in the same direction?
21:07:35 <Bjarni> they gave an explanation which should be good enough to show that light can come from more than one angle based on just a single light source
21:07:52 <glx> because they never landed on the moon
21:07:57 <Bjarni> but.... in reality they didn't show anything
21:08:13 <Bjarni> basically they didn't explain why it was like that, just "it is"
21:08:30 <Elukka> on earth there's a whole lot of ambient light due to the atmosphere, but the side of an object facing the sun is still brighter
21:08:36 <Bjarni> and the camera was placed so people couldn't tell if they added extra light or not to do the recording
21:08:45 <Bjarni> meaning they didn't proved anything
21:09:08 <Elukka> so, openttd ligthing is a conspiracy
21:09:19 *** TWerkhoven[l] has joined #openttd
21:09:37 <Elukka> (we're not seriously believing the moon landings were faked though, right)
21:10:05 <Bjarni> eventually you will learn that all that stuff about Columbus finding new land is faked too
21:10:37 <frosch123> imo most impressive about sunlight is the direction in which it arrives
21:11:15 <Bjarni> Elukka: how could they possibly not be. The Eagle lands and launches again.... they reconnect to that other vehicle in space
21:11:16 <frosch123> if you have a usual human made small light source, the shadow is always bigger than the original object
21:11:25 <frosch123> for the sun it is the other way around
21:11:33 <Elukka> america doesn't actually exist, those military forces everywhere actaully originate from interdimensional portals
21:12:03 <Bjarni> reconnect..... the Russians nearly lost Mir when they attempted to connect based on technology the US claimed to have used on Apollo 11
21:12:15 <Elukka> yeah the sun is so far away the rays are effectively parallel
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21:12:21 <Bjarni> turned out that all simulations the Russians did ended up in failure
21:12:29 <Bjarni> and they concluded it couldn't be done
21:12:42 <Elukka> okay, irony is hard to detect
21:13:21 <Bjarni> it's not possible to connect two objects in space without crashing them too fast into each other unless you use advanced technology to help you
21:13:30 <Bjarni> such as laser range detection
21:13:35 <frosch123> Elukka: i mean: the sun is bigger than every other object you see, so the light encloses small objects, so they do not cast a shadow anymore
21:13:39 <Bjarni> Apollo 11 didn't use such stuff
21:14:07 <Elukka> if you really had to you could eye the docking with no instruments
21:14:12 <Elukka> it probably wouldn't succeed but it's possible
21:14:54 <Elukka> first you plan your trajectory so that you end up on the same orbit as the object you're docking to... then when you're close, you can mostly forget about trajectories and just fly
21:15:44 <Bjarni> and then you either use all your fuel to make corrections or you come in too fast
21:15:56 <Elukka> you can't come in too fast if you're on the same orbit
21:16:09 <Elukka> the orbital velocity around an object at a certain altitude is a constnat
21:16:10 <Bjarni> because the human eye can't tell distance in space... at least not good enough for this task
21:16:15 <glx> maybe they had help from aliens
21:16:25 <glx> they have stargate anyway
21:16:36 <Elukka> both the soviets and americans managed in-space docking of two spacecraft in the 1960's
21:17:03 <Elukka> i don't think it's ever actually been eyeballed... but it doesn't need particularly advanced technology
21:17:06 <glx> soon the ISS will be lost
21:17:28 <__ln__> Bjarni: we are not talking about mere humans, but astronauts
21:17:37 <Elukka> but it had its risks. all the docking required for the apollo mission architecture was considered a downside
21:17:59 <George> how many times does CB 26 happen, while 1 animation frame is displayed?
21:18:28 <Elukka> there's nothing magical about docking that would have made it impossible in the 60's
21:18:47 <frosch123> George: do you mean cb 27?
21:19:25 <__ln__> Bjarni: what about the other arguments that Savage and Hyneman presented?
21:19:29 <frosch123> hmm, what does cb26 have to do with frames?
21:19:30 <Elukka> before apollo, there was gemini, which were missions designed to practice orbital rendezvous and docking in preparation for apollo
21:19:37 <Elukka> there were also test flights of apollo on low earth orbit
21:20:32 <Elukka> incidentally, apollo spacecraft also docked with soviet soyuz spacecraft
21:20:44 <Bjarni> <__ln__> Bjarni: what about the other arguments that Savage and Hyneman presented? <-- I can't remember those :p
21:20:55 <Bjarni> it has been ages since I saw that show
21:21:25 <frosch123> George: i mean, cb 26 decides which frame to pick, so if you change the frame on every cb, then it is called once per frame? or what?
21:21:31 <Elukka> if apollo was somehow faked, the soviets would have been the first to reveal it
21:21:37 <__ln__> Bjarni: one of those was the retroreflector
21:21:41 <Bjarni> btw the DVB-T TV broadcaster here has problems.... too few customers
21:21:50 <Bjarni> they made all channels free for a while
21:22:11 <Bjarni> and then I saw that they broadcast channels in as low as 1 Mbit/s
21:22:14 <Elukka> there's also the funny thing that the soviets, among others, tracked apollo
21:22:18 <Bjarni> that's not really good
21:22:45 <__ln__> indeed, the soviets' watch was another argument
21:22:54 <Elukka> the low orbit test flights before apollo... you could probably have seen those with the naked eye
21:23:11 <Elukka> i've personally seen a japanese upper stage fly 600 km over my house one night
21:23:17 <frosch123> George: the calls to cb 26 are only defined by property 10 resp. cb 27
21:23:18 <Bjarni> <Elukka> there's also the funny thing that the soviets, among others, tracked apollo <-- The Apollo missions were cancelled once the Russians invented a way to track and hence follow the rockets all the way to the moon
21:23:33 <sortkrudt> I think the early hebrew calculated the distance to the moon with 9% failure with their nakes eyes. not bad.
21:23:35 <Elukka> there was no special way to track them
21:23:37 <George> I intended once, but the way, my code works, makes me think that it happens several times
21:23:41 <Elukka> they could have tracked them with ww2 technology
21:23:43 <Bjarni> to begin with the Russians were unable to see such a small object near the moon
21:23:44 <Elukka> it wasn't invented then
21:23:53 <George> I'll make more tests tomorrow
21:24:16 <Elukka> do you still think docking was impossible then?
21:24:50 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> I think the early hebrew calculated the distance to the moon with 9% failure with their nakes eyes. not bad. <--- the Indians figured out the Earth is round around 1500 years ago and calculated the diameter within 1% or something like that.... not bad either
21:25:32 <glx> but at that time it wasn't round yet
21:25:36 <Elukka> honestly, if you have any idea how orbits function, you would understand how a rendezvous is possible
21:25:45 <sortkrudt> No, thats true. even tho catholism shouldnt represent christian nescessarly.
21:25:58 <Elukka> nah, the ancient greeks knew earth was round
21:26:03 <Elukka> knew its size pretty accurately too
21:26:23 <sortkrudt> europe have allways been attached to 'politically correctness'. which kills science and philosophy.
21:26:42 <glx> and everybody knows the sun turns around the earth
21:26:43 <Bjarni> <Elukka> honestly, if you have any idea how orbits function <-- I do and I understand how objects can move at the same speed in orbit.... however when they dock they do NOT move at the same speed
21:27:02 <Elukka> yeah but at the time scales and velocities involved it doesn't matter that much
21:27:18 <George> frosch123: I made the code, that changes idustry registers instead of changing graphics, and then make graphics depending on register, not animation frame (this way I have more than 256 animation stages). But looks like it runs faster, than the animation with the same delay.
21:27:20 <Elukka> if you accelerate 5 m/s to reach and dock with an object, you would eventually end up at a very slightly different orbit
21:27:26 <Elukka> but on a timescale of minutes, not really
21:27:49 <Elukka> do you think the soviets faked their dockings too?
21:28:00 <sortkrudt> its awesome how to calculate the earth size within 1% margine with nakes eyes. dont understand how they do that.
21:28:00 <Bjarni> sounds good..... 5 m/s with 80 km to go
21:28:02 <George> But maybe I'm too tired and mistaken
21:28:16 <Elukka> why would you have 80 km to go
21:28:18 <Bjarni> and how do you know it's 5 m/s and not -5 m/s?
21:28:39 <Elukka> you put it on an orbit close to the object you wish to dock to
21:28:48 <Elukka> well, if the docking target is behind you then it's -5m/s
21:29:01 <Elukka> first unmanned soviet docking... 1967
21:29:04 <Bjarni> I think you missed my point
21:29:10 <Elukka> first manned soviet docking 1969
21:29:38 <Bjarni> the two objects are really far from each other... possibly hundreds of km
21:29:49 <Bjarni> they close in on each other at really high speed
21:30:05 <Elukka> they close in at a very small relative velocity
21:30:23 <Elukka> you also launch so that when the craft that attempts to dock with the other craft reaches orbit, it's already close to it
21:31:29 <Elukka> if you wanted to, you could download orbiter sim and perform an apollo rendezvous with the same instruments that were used in real life :P
21:31:35 <Bjarni> orbit is not like a lane on a road... it's not just "let's use this one". Moving into the very same orbit like you talk about is quite hard
21:31:51 <Elukka> yeah, it's not trivial
21:31:58 <Elukka> rendezvous to within docking distance took some trial and error
21:32:07 <Elukka> "In 1962 and again 1963, the Soviet Union launched pairs of spacecraft simultaneously, Vostok 3 and 4 and Vostok 5 and 6. In both cases, the launch rockets' guidance systems inserted the two craft into nearly identical orbits; however the precision of such a system was not nearly enough to achieve true rendezvous."
21:32:21 <Elukka> subsequently, techniques were developed enough so that docking was possible
21:32:53 <Bjarni> simulators are just that: simulators. I once drove 50 km in MSTS with 40 wagons without adding water or coal to the locomotive. A simulator proves nothing
21:33:07 <Elukka> do you think the ISS is also impossible? modern spacecraft with the possible exception of the shuttle have no more maneuvering fuel than apollo
21:33:21 <Elukka> yet they dock with it all the time
21:33:30 <__ln__> i once (no, twice, thrice) drove 1 km/h over the speed limit in MSTS, and derailed.
21:33:47 <Bjarni> modern spacecraft use laser to tell the distance and difference in speed and calculate how to handle the engines based on that
21:34:49 <Bjarni> <__ln__> i once (no, twice, thrice) drove 1 km/h over the speed limit in MSTS, and derailed. <--- I once drove 135 km/h on a 75 km/h track without derailing. MSTS can be somewhat odd
21:34:58 <Elukka> i believe soyuz still uses radar
21:35:20 <Elukka> if you had a spare $20 million or so you could buy a ticket to go up on one and see how it's done
21:35:23 <Bjarni> but the principle is the same
21:35:37 <Elukka> do you suppose apollo didn't have radar technology?
21:35:45 <Bjarni> it doesn't matter how it's done today when it wasn't done like that back then
21:36:01 <Elukka> actually it was done pretty much the same :P
21:36:28 <Swissfan91> does anyone use Paint.net for sprites ?
21:36:30 <Bjarni> this is getting us nowhere
21:37:05 <Bjarni> (just like 60'ties rocket technology)
21:37:15 <Elukka> apollo had a radar transponder... this was common technology in the 60's
21:37:59 <Elukka> lasers are not needed and are still not commonly used on docking
21:38:36 <Bjarni> here is the thing. It was the cold war. Russia had Sputnik and the Americans were scared that it would drop nuclear bombs on them. The Americans decided to place nuclear rockets on the moon because the Russians can't attack them there
21:38:42 <Bjarni> Apollo was part of this
21:38:54 <Elukka> that would make absolutely zero sense
21:39:06 <SpComb> military nuclear stuff often doesn't
21:39:13 <Bjarni> while they didn't actually go there, the Russians at the time couldn't be sure and it scared the hell out of them
21:39:15 <Elukka> it doesn't make sense in the context of nuclear war strategy
21:39:38 <Elukka> a missile originating on the moon would take a couple days to reach earth and would be comparably easy to intercept
21:39:44 <Bjarni> it makes as much sense as placing nuclear missiles under the ice of the North Pole
21:39:55 <Elukka> (that wasn't done either)
21:40:18 <Bjarni> Russia still have Typhoon subs there with like 26 missiles in each
21:40:31 <Elukka> a missile launched from the US would, on the other hand, reach russia in hours... and it would be practically impossible to intercept all of them
21:40:38 <Elukka> you wouldn't want to place them on orbit either
21:40:57 <Bjarni> the idea wasn't to block an attack as this is really hard
21:41:10 <Bjarni> the idea is to scare the other side not to attack because both sides would lose
21:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni comes and the discussion gets horribly off topic. interesting causality :p
21:41:41 <Elukka> moon missiles would do nothing to that
21:41:50 <Elukka> that was the whole basis of the cold war
21:41:51 <Bjarni> if the US had missiles on the moon, then if Russia attacked America, nomatter what they did, they couldn't prevent a counterattack
21:42:03 <Elukka> both sides had enough missiles to decimate the opposition, and there was nothing either of them could do to stop it
21:42:16 <Elukka> they couldn't prevent a counterattack either way
21:42:28 <Elukka> missiles still take hours to reach their target
21:42:36 <Elukka> counterattacks would have been launched within minutes
21:43:05 <Elukka> placing nukes on the moon would accomplish nothing
21:43:06 <Bjarni> I'm not saying this is sane when you stop and think about it, but it's what they did
21:43:26 <Elukka> some proof to support that?
21:44:28 <Bjarni> sure... I sneaked in and took photos of their plans..... what do you think? :p
21:44:44 <glx> <Elukka> both sides had enough missiles to decimate the opposition, and there was nothing either of them could do to stop it <-- not only the opposition
21:45:11 <Bjarni> they could tell everybody on the planet like 5 or 10 times
21:45:26 <Bjarni> kill everybody... not sure how many times
21:45:49 <Elukka> the point was to destroy the opposing nation, they couldn't really kill everyone
21:45:54 <Elukka> it would have been terrible though
21:46:20 <glx> yeah radiations are known to stay within the borders
21:46:51 <Elukka> cancer rates would be quite bad globally, but it wouldn't kill the entire population
21:47:06 <Elukka> just every survivor's life would suck
21:47:27 <Elukka> both russia and america had extremely twitchy trigger fingers, so that the doctrine of mutually assured destruction would be enforced... a few times the world came really, really close to nuclear war
21:47:49 <Elukka> like, dependent on one guy saying yes or no
21:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> they say the closest was when the russian early warning system had a malfunction
21:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it measured the light over suspected starting spots, and triggered on some solar reflections
21:49:25 <Elukka> there was also a case where officers on board a soviet sub near cuba thought the war had already began, and were about to launch a nuclear torpedo at an american group
21:49:35 <Elukka> 3 of them had to agree to launch it, only one didn't
21:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that would probably have caused some diplomatic fallout, but not necessarily a war
21:50:48 <Elukka> yeah it wasn't as close as the incident you mentioned
21:50:57 <Elukka> would have been very risky though
21:51:38 <Elukka> hey, remember that time a couple years back when the US wanted to reheat some good old cold war tensions with russia?
21:51:56 <Elukka> they were going to build missile silos in... poland i think
21:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what you mean
21:52:09 <Elukka> they said it was for interceptors in case a missile was launched by a 'rogue state'
21:52:18 <Elukka> but they could have launched nukes just fine
21:52:35 <Elukka> they did the same thing to russia that the soviets did to the US during the cold war, with cuba
21:52:46 <Elukka> eventually the US backed out of it
21:53:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... they didn't really... only very late after the economy crisis hit, they finally decided to cut down the budget
21:54:03 <Bjarni> At one time Russia detected an attack from America and was about to counterattack, but then the leader thought "this can't be right. Nobody would attack like that with just 4 missiles" and called off the counterattack. Turned out the satellite had spotted the rising sun as rocket engines and raised a false alarm.
21:54:41 <Elukka> it wasn't a leader, just an officer whose orders were to report it as a launch
21:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that was what i meant above
21:54:56 <Elukka> we're all terribly lucky he didn't
21:55:10 <Elukka> because soviet doctrine was to launch every missile in response
21:55:19 <Elukka> in turn, american doctrine was to launch all of theirs
21:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it also turned out that the NATO strategy for a first strike would have been to knock out moscow first, so a few rockets would have actually been plausible
21:55:54 <Bjarni> he didn't know that :p
21:56:06 <__ln__> indeed it was just an officer, who got fired or at least transferred after the incident
21:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but he said later that if he knew that, he would have decided otherwise
21:56:48 * Bjarni wonders why Denmark joined NATO
21:57:16 <Bjarni> NATO declared Denmark to be the front line and too tricky to defend meaning in case of an attack, Denmark would be on it's own
21:57:40 <peter1138> yeah but you've got bacon
21:57:43 <appe> i was reading: 08:11 <@Bjarni> NATO declared war on Denmark
21:58:05 <Bjarni> Denmark paid money to NATO, yet NATO refused to help funding military defenses in Denmark
21:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> easy. just reuse the ones the germans left there :p
21:58:56 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: those 2000+ bunkers are all placed to defend the west because the enemy is England
21:59:14 <Bjarni> Germany never defended Denmark against either Poland or Russia
21:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes sense ;)
22:01:26 <Elukka> got around to mostly finishing a sprite hopefully for CETS
22:02:52 <Bjarni> We now know that a Russian lady was a spy for Germany and she told that Churchill would place his military in Norway and attack Germany though Denmark. He predicted that Germany would counterattack and the frontline would be in Denmark. Germany decided to beat England to it and conquered Denmark and Norway
22:03:24 <Bjarni> and England was the enemy from their point of view, so it all makes sense
22:03:42 <Bjarni> we will never know if England would have attacked like that if Germany didn't attack
22:03:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that was probably before they entered a war with russia
22:05:12 <__ln__> Bjarni: you should visit this channel more often than every 23 weeks and 1 days.
22:05:32 <Bjarni> Germany attacked on the 9th of April 1940 at 4:20. This means most Danes woke with German presence everywhere
22:06:18 <__ln__> Bjarni: do you have passport control at borders atm, btw?
22:06:54 <Bjarni> sure and the likes of you are likely to be rejected because you look suspicious :p
22:07:23 <Bjarni> there is some checks, but not like the papers claims
22:08:26 <Bjarni> Denmark increased the number of people checking people at the borders. When the new setup is done, then there will be one customs worker on the Danish side of the border for every 20 on the Swedish side
22:08:43 <Bjarni> all that stuff about closing the boarder is nonsense
22:09:25 <peter1138> we ought to rewrite autoreplace
22:09:42 <Bjarni> German newspaper(s) claimed it was to block German tourists from entering the country.
22:10:22 <Bjarni> however reality is new CCTV, which will trigger if stolen cars tries to leave the country and stuff like that
22:10:39 <Bjarni> and an estimated 1% of vehicles will be stopped, not everybody
22:11:04 <planetmaker> it's a violation of the schengen treaty
22:11:30 <planetmaker> and a huge step back in the freedom of movement
22:11:41 <Bjarni> some people claimed that for political reasons, though nobody claims it for legal reasons
22:11:57 <planetmaker> for diplomatic reasons
22:13:14 <Bjarni> it's a question of open boarders where organized burglars enters the country, steals everything and then leave. To slow that down the politicians decided to add more custom workers at the boarders to look for stolen goods
22:13:17 <__ln__> my passport was indeed checked the previous time i entered denmark! ...
22:13:26 <Bjarni> EU told Denmark to do something like that
22:13:29 <__ln__> ... maybe because i was arriving from Washington, D.C.
22:14:09 <planetmaker> now, that's quite the truth reversed, eh, Bjarni?
22:14:13 <peter1138> maybe because it was 24 years ago
22:14:16 <Bjarni> <__ln__> ... maybe because i was arriving from Washington, D.C. <-- entering from a non-EU country is kind of out of this issue
22:14:30 <sortkrudt> open boarder wouldn't be an issue through free capitalsim.
22:14:31 <Bjarni> EU basically wants everybody to be checked when entering
22:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't even have a passport the last time i entered denmark
22:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we didn't even go past the checkpoint
22:14:58 <planetmaker> ID cards are good enough
22:15:16 <sortkrudt> ID cards is reduntant. Cash should be enough.
22:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: didn't have an ID card either
22:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i was like 9 years ;)
22:15:31 <Bjarni> The idea is to have an EU ID card to prove that people don't have to show passport
22:15:37 <peter1138> (actually i would've been on my parents' passports...
22:15:49 <__ln__> for me, my driver's license should be enough to carry with me in denmark.
22:16:00 <sortkrudt> EU is more and more like a social democratic state. I'm glad norway aint in EU.
22:16:10 <Bjarni> however EU can't agree on such cards and so far the only card accepted to prove a person shouldn't show passports when entering is.... a passport :p
22:19:49 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: yet Norway pays money to EU and change laws to fit EU to avoid a boycott
22:20:58 <__ln__> norway and switzerland are two poor third world countries
22:21:56 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> EU is more and more like a social democratic state <--- remove democratic and you are on to something. Elected politicians aren't allowed to speak unless they are in a group of likeminded elected in at least 7 countries
22:22:36 <Bjarni> Norway is an oil producing and exporting country... yet it's like their economy doesn't really benefit from it anymore
22:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: might be slightly to monotone-greyish
22:24:22 <Elukka> it's difficult to strike a balance between the color scheme on the template and visibility
22:24:32 <Elukka> this particular coach doesn't have particularly eye-popping colors
22:24:43 <Elukka> do you think more color, more contrast or brighter?
22:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> means you can make the doors more visible
22:26:35 <Elukka> it would be possible but then they'd be significantly larger
22:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> try 2px window 1px inbetween
22:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and in the partially-diagonal views, move the wheels slightly outwards
22:32:52 <sortkrudt> Bjarni: sure its an oil nation, but we are not a working nation.
22:33:47 * Bjarni falis to see a violation
22:33:50 <Elukka> moving the windows closer together on the side views makes the door areas much too large
22:34:14 <Bjarni> planetmaker: what have you been told, which should be a violation?
22:34:15 <Elukka> small adjustments on the diagonals can be made though
22:34:22 <Elukka> they're already 2x2 pixels
22:35:10 <Elukka> not sure what you mean with the wheels?
22:35:50 <Bjarni> btw I encountered police both when entering and leaving Germany
22:36:10 <sortkrudt> I miss the times where you can be drunk and hunt, or drive.
22:36:11 <Bjarni> The Germans had placed two police officers, who watched who boarded the ferry
22:36:44 <Bjarni> and when going the other way the police were present with no less than 3 police cars
22:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the wheels are too far inwards, the ends of the wagons hang in the air
22:37:42 <sortkrudt> nothing is more fun than being abit tipsy and shooting clay-doves. :)
22:38:00 <Elukka> they do hang in the air for a couple meters on the real ones though
22:38:18 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: using black powder ;)
22:38:32 <Elukka> the outer wheels are between the first two large windows
22:38:41 <sortkrudt> I have flint, percussion and catridged filled with blackpowder. what do u have?
22:39:06 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: were you glued to the TV when they broadcasted Hurtigruten - minutt for minutt?
22:39:23 <sortkrudt> No, but I have watched some of it. alot of nice places. :)
22:39:54 <sortkrudt> its quite expensive to take the boat. about 2K euro or so to get the whole view from bergen to north norway
22:40:08 <Bjarni> I saw when the horses fell over and landed on a rider.... they removed that part from their homepage... now there is a gap or just front camera
22:40:20 <sortkrudt> I'm workin on two blackpowder weapons to hunt with.
22:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> # Enten jagen macht besoffen doppelt so viel Spaß
22:41:26 <sortkrudt> but for now I got a pump-shotgun I use for hunting birds.
22:41:40 <sortkrudt> bist du aus deutschland Bjarni?
22:41:52 <Elukka> eddi: do you think i should stick with the template colors, or make it pop out more?
22:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (there's a pun in there, because in the song he's drunk driving, and "Ente" is a name for the Citroen 2cv)
22:42:11 <Elukka> the same paint was used on a lot of rail vehicles so that would essentially mean adjusting the template
22:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: especially less monotone
22:42:23 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: do I look like a German to you? :p
22:42:36 <sortkrudt> wtf. i dont tell on nicks anymore :)
22:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i haven't really checked how accurate the template colours are
22:42:47 <sortkrudt> been on irc since '96. lots of nick :)
22:42:53 <Elukka> they look alright to me
22:43:04 <Elukka> they're accurate, but i'm not sure they're ideal for the game
22:43:07 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, you have some b.powder guns?
22:43:08 <Bjarni> I have used this nick since 2004
22:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but really, make random pixels slightly darker and slightly lighter
22:43:30 <sortkrudt> my nick is actually 'blackpowder' in old norwegian or danish. :)
22:43:33 <Bjarni> I haven't been shooting in ages and never much
22:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not all one monotone area
22:43:42 <Elukka> what do you think about weathering the roofs and such?
22:43:59 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, well. its fun. now the hunting' season have started so :)
22:44:04 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> my nick is actually 'blackpowder' in old norwegian or danish. :) <--- I know that.... and yet you assume me to be German.... I don't get it
22:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> try orienting on a clean wagon :)
22:44:20 <sortkrudt> I didnt know that you knew that! DOH! :)
22:44:25 <Elukka> it's hard to make more detail than there is!
22:44:37 <Elukka> the sides and roof are flat green and flat grey respectively
22:45:07 <sortkrudt> yea, ur danish. i see :9
22:45:11 <Elukka> i suppose some very light lines on the roofs to emulate the real, thin ones... they wouldn't be visible at this scale, but it might give a better impression of the wagon
22:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: no, i mean just make the pixels slightly lighter or darker, that the area is less "flat"
22:45:48 <Bjarni> <Bjarni> sortkrudt: using black powder ;) <--- this could have tipped you that I might understand it
22:45:58 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, if u want go for a rifle of blackpowder i suggest rolling black. very nice rifle indeed. doable for hunting.
22:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: look at the DBSet, hardly any 2 neighbouring pixels have the same colour
22:46:22 <Elukka> i wanted to but didn't have any dbset sprites handy :P
22:46:29 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: I have no plans for shooting anything
22:46:44 <Bjarni> though trollshooting can be quite tempting
22:46:46 <sortkrudt> hunting is so nice tho.
22:47:05 <Elukka> perhaps i'll take a photo of a real wagon, shrink it to ttd size and see what color differences there are :D
22:47:33 <Bjarni> I think it's really funny in Back to the Future where Doc adds what looks like gunpowder or something to the steam locomotive and it just moves faster
22:47:43 <Bjarni> makes absolutely no technical sense whatsoever
22:48:10 * Bjarni knows what to do to a steam locomotive to make it go faster than specifications
22:48:11 <sortkrudt> the whole movie doesnt make any technical sense whatsoever. hehe
22:48:21 <Bjarni> though it's a really bad idea since it can blow up instead
22:48:57 <sortkrudt> so u dont have any bpowder weapons?
22:49:42 <Bjarni> or rather, long time borrow
22:49:56 <sortkrudt> we have this law that you dont need to aply to cops if your weapon is older than 1890. which is cool. :)
22:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: it's obviously something that makes the fire burn hotter.
22:50:38 <sortkrudt> i have comboweapon (shotgun 16gauge and 12,7mm) and an old weapon fro 1855. norwegian classy one. only 512 in world.
22:51:18 <Bjarni> that legalises Madsen maskinkanonen
22:51:32 <glx> <@Bjarni> though it's a really bad idea since it can blow up instead <-- Doc didn't care, there was no bridge anyway
22:51:49 <sortkrudt> never heard of it. 2sec ill google
22:51:55 <Bjarni> glx: blowing up before the bridge would be bad
22:52:48 <sortkrudt> used during the 2th world war. still older than 1890? :)
22:53:04 <sortkrudt> well. any weapon older than 1890 is legal in norway without aplying to the cops afaik.
22:53:16 <Bjarni> was it from 1888 or 1892
22:53:51 <sortkrudt> well. norway is strict on it. even a rifle from 1891 you ahve to aply on. on of my weapons are from 1891 or so, but I say 1890 so it would be legal. hehe
22:54:17 <Bjarni> the thing is this gun is quite powerful
22:54:24 <sortkrudt> DISA was made in 1900.
22:54:29 <sortkrudt> so prolly not 1880 :)
22:55:03 <Bjarni> if I recall correctly, Germany lost more armoured vehicles to this gun than Denmark lost soldiers when the Germans invaded
22:55:24 <Bjarni> "Udviklingen af det luftkølede maskingevær begyndte i 1879" <-- before 1890 ;)
22:56:06 <sortkrudt> Ja. Det er sant. Uansett så kommer det ann på produksjonsdato av det aktuelle vaabenet.
22:56:14 <sortkrudt> (sry, forgot my self writing danish or smt)
22:57:14 <sortkrudt> you just have potatoes in ur throat. thats the main difference ^^
22:57:25 <Elukka> eddi: here's some really subtle tweaks, upper row is new, lower row is old, what do you think?
22:58:39 <sortkrudt> Well. Will of men who want freedom counts 1000 of arrogant people.
22:59:16 <sortkrudt> Small countries fighting huge countries has to do like vietnam; small group sabotaging and such
23:00:15 <sortkrudt> kind'a funny weapon but crap metal.
23:00:52 <Bjarni> the thing is the motorbikes (Danish construction) had a top speed of 85 km/h. Germany used Panzer I with a top speed of 40 km/h and something else with a top speed of 80 km/h. This means the Danish soldiers could apply a hit and run tactic
23:01:58 <sortkrudt> I guess. I don't know that much about danish history.
23:02:00 <Bjarni> the Germans used 11 mm cannons while the Danes used 20 mm cannons with explosive armour piercing shells.
23:02:09 <sortkrudt> We just hide in the forrest, shot, and run. hehe
23:02:44 <planetmaker> @topic add -1 | today: free history lessons
23:02:44 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: topic add [<channel>] <topic>
23:03:09 <Bjarni> Which means the Danes set them to automatic and removed German vehicles one by one. In Norway the same kind of vehicles were used and nobody in Norway had strong enough weapons to penetrate the armourplating
23:03:13 <sortkrudt> Lot to learn about history leasson.
23:03:39 <sortkrudt> My grandfather was one of the secret undercovers. mainly dealing with explosives, and destroying bridges.
23:04:07 <sortkrudt> butz nordic countries were lucky cause main of our people was arian. :9
23:04:19 <Bjarni> my grandmother supplied food to resistance people, who had to go underground and hide
23:04:42 <sortkrudt> yes. I'm proud of knowing this fact of the brave men of those times.
23:04:51 <sortkrudt> not to fuck with nazis.
23:05:48 <sortkrudt> I bet many soldiers was like: whatever.. when war is finished, i have to move from this crap fatherland
23:05:50 <Bjarni> and after the Germans left, those girls were captured, shaven on their heads (no more hair) and then put on public display
23:06:04 <sortkrudt> yea. heard of that. common in france aswell
23:06:31 <sortkrudt> when you got a govt. forcing you do be in a war, its hard to know who wants this war or not
23:06:54 <Bjarni> The Danish parlament resigned in 1943
23:07:15 <Bjarni> which meant the country was without parliament when the war ended.
23:07:18 <sortkrudt> we did resign in '45.
23:07:52 <sortkrudt> I like no parliment tho, but. cant last forever.
23:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> they have a parliament, but no government
23:08:30 <Bjarni> which left a huge problem... who should govern. They formed a government, which included all parties and some resistance people and they controlled the country until the next election (later that year... I think)
23:08:41 <sortkrudt> pure capitalism works best. its the only ethical system.
23:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> pure capitalism doesn't work at all...
23:09:16 <sortkrudt> it does. history shows us this.
23:09:36 <sortkrudt> we haven't had pure capitalism since 1800's in US and hongkong the 1900s
23:09:38 <Elukka> it results in starving, people dying due to lack of healthcare, and other such fun stuff
23:09:40 <Elukka> not what i'd call ethical
23:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> only if you forget 90% of the history
23:10:00 <sortkrudt> no Eddi|zuHause. You need to understand the history.
23:10:04 <sortkrudt> what is capitalism?
23:10:17 <Elukka> what happens in pure capitalism if you flat out run out of money and can't secure a job?
23:10:19 <sortkrudt> it is only people who are allowed to choose products.
23:10:29 <sortkrudt> there will be no problems with jobs in pure capitalism
23:10:34 <sortkrudt> no taxes, no regulations.
23:10:57 <sortkrudt> the world is black and white. either hardcore socialism or capitalism. can't avoid this.
23:10:57 <Bjarni> When London told that the war was over for Denmark, then everybody started celebrating. I read one story about a train arriving at a station and the station master informed the crew of the news. One big issue: the train had two German soldiers as guards..... they decided to carefully tell them and what happened next?
23:11:08 <Elukka> no roads, toxic food and children's toys...
23:11:15 <Elukka> a couple of results of no taxes and regulations that pop to mind
23:11:30 <sortkrudt> Elukka. bullshit. myths only. roads would be much better in free capitalism.
23:11:39 <Elukka> why do you think pure capitalism would mean everyone has a job anyway?
23:11:49 <sortkrudt> its a myth that govt. has to care with govt. school, roads and healthcare.
23:12:01 <sortkrudt> Elukka, cause peopel are genuinly egoists. its unavoidable.
23:12:17 <sortkrudt> it's the way, truth and the life.
23:12:19 <Elukka> in the real world, only countries with significant government participation in school, roads and healthcare have it work well
23:12:37 <sortkrudt> you really don't see the picture.
23:12:46 <Bjarni> capitalism sucks in it's pure form. Socialism sucks big time in pure or or semi-pure form.
23:12:53 <sortkrudt> I could mention co uple of names, and you would harvest alot of political understand if you would see some if it.
23:13:03 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, no. capitalism is what we are tought since todlers.
23:13:28 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> Bjarni, no. capitalism is what we are tought since todlers. <-- and there are issues
23:13:44 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, no, you have to care about your self. if you wouldn't you wouldnt play tycoon :)
23:14:03 <Swissfan91> can anybody here draw good buildings in OTTD? or point me towards a good tutorial?
23:14:05 <Bjarni> pure capitalism includes stuff like China selling toothpaste to South America containing fake toothpaste, which is discovered when people drop dead
23:14:21 <Elukka> it's the most profitable thing for the corporations to do
23:14:32 <sortkrudt> in capitalism you wouldnt have paper works. you just kill people who want to force people or swindle.
23:14:48 <Elukka> that would quickly end up pure fascism
23:15:05 <Bjarni> btw did anybody even read my question? :)
23:15:13 <sortkrudt> fascism includes lobbyism, whcih is not possible in capitalism.
23:15:37 <Elukka> anyway, in pure capitalism... suppose you study for a field and the economy changes, and that field does not need any more laborers
23:15:44 <Elukka> you have no job, and no money to study for another field
23:16:08 <sortkrudt> Elukka, i have to beg of mercy of others, or move to the forrest and live by my means - or die.
23:16:26 <sortkrudt> but since working is legal this would probably never happend.
23:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> in pure capitalism there is no mercy
23:16:31 <Bjarni> Elukka: sort of like the nuclear technicians/engineers in Germany? ;)
23:16:34 <Elukka> being driven to the forest or dying is ethical to you?
23:16:48 <Elukka> you die due to the whims of the free market, and this is ethical?
23:16:50 <sortkrudt> yes it is, Eddi|zuHause. thats the point. US is the greatest charritable country for a reason.
23:17:08 <sortkrudt> Elukka. yes. its more ethical to die without harming others than sucking life out of others.
23:17:21 <Elukka> that's a pretty horrible viewpoint to be frank
23:17:27 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> yes it is, Eddi|zuHause. thats the point. US is the greatest charritable country for a reason. <--- hence US isn't pure capitalism
23:17:35 <sortkrudt> only because you like to force people to do stuff they dont want to do, Elukka.
23:17:51 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, it is the most capitaalistic country in the world.
23:18:01 <Elukka> look, real people in the real world, if they're starving, they don't give a shit about ideology
23:18:09 <Bjarni> which shows no country has pure capitalism
23:18:15 <sortkrudt> no. most people ar ethieves, thats right Elukka.
23:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: it is also the country with the highest demand for charity
23:18:18 <Elukka> you wouldn't be espousing pure capitalism were you one of your nation's many poor people
23:18:34 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, yes, no country is perfect, but it doesnt tell us not to achieve perfection.
23:18:44 <sortkrudt> what is pure capitalism Elukka? choice?
23:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: that means there is an actual market for "charity"
23:18:48 <Elukka> you say this only because you are sufficiently wealthy and do not wish to share
23:18:51 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: if US is pure capitalism, then how do you explain the health bill?
23:19:09 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. ofcourse. dont you care about people? many do. and if they money for it, they will help
23:19:27 <Elukka> in the united states, right now people die because they cannot afford healthcare
23:19:30 <Elukka> there is no charity to them
23:19:34 <Bjarni> btw it looks like the health bill turned out to be a real drain in the economy.... US has huge issues
23:19:35 <sortkrudt> Bjarni, its the *most* capitalistic country, but they are moving to nordic structure which could jeapardize the whole secular lifestyle
23:19:47 <Elukka> they die, due to curable diseases in a developed country well capable of curing them
23:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: that's only working because people are _not_ being capitalistic
23:20:01 <sortkrudt> I'm against the healthbill. they could privatize everything. much better. everything is better in private.
23:20:13 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. no. capitalistic is about caring about stuff.
23:20:29 <Elukka> well, it's nice to know you support a system where people will literally die due to your ideology, and you believe it's ethical
23:20:35 <Elukka> i won't engage in any more political discussions with you :)
23:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: capitalism is about caring about stuf that gets you anything in return!
23:20:53 <sortkrudt> if you look at the norwegian, danish or whatever govt. you'll allways find 99% of the stuff made in the private. you can substract the private, and you have nothing
23:20:57 <Elukka> upper is new, lower is old
23:21:00 <Elukka> eddi, what do you think?
23:21:07 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: yes, i want privatised nuclear power stations. because that's worked so well!
23:21:10 <Elukka> i added some lines to the roof, in real life they'd be too small to see at this scale but i still think it looks good
23:21:17 <Elukka> (they do exist in real life, they're just rather thin)
23:21:35 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. yes. if i give to my mother is of my knownledge that I have something in return. that means. i'm glad to help. it gives me something? would you ever play tycoon if it didnt GIVE you something?
23:21:55 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. ofc. nuclearpower is the way of the future.
23:23:12 <Bjarni> sortkrudt: tell that to the people of Fukushima
23:23:44 <sortkrudt> tell them not to allowe people like their emperor to be like this. taking side of nazis.
23:24:02 <sortkrudt> I fully support fukushima bombing.
23:24:08 <glx> <sortkrudt> ... everything is better in private. <-- yeah rail safety in england was way better when it became private
23:24:16 <Bjarni> what did the emperor do?
23:24:34 <sortkrudt> glx. u dont understand. private is no connection with the govt. at all. who ever can build whatever they want.
23:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: by that statement you successfully disqualified yourself
23:24:41 <sortkrudt> Bjarni. take sides.
23:24:54 <glx> electricity in US is a nice thing too
23:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> fukushima != hiroshima
23:24:56 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. yea right. heard this often. prolly because you think govt is ur God.
23:25:12 <Bjarni> besides showing up on TV after the disaster and state that everybody should work together to overcome the disaster (mainly tsunami)
23:25:22 <sortkrudt> basically. your life is most important. if you dont love ur self, you are nothing.
23:25:34 <sortkrudt> we've seen ddr. we've seen ussr. socialism is not in our nature.
23:25:42 <sortkrudt> we are egoists. deal with it people.
23:26:16 <Elukka> any more suggestions on how to bring it up to the set's standards?
23:26:22 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> fukushima != hiroshima <-- Hiroshima is the target of one nuclear bomb (blame the Americans). Fukushima is the site of nuclear meltdown in 3!!! reactors and they are still out of control
23:26:39 <Bjarni> leaking radiation and stuff
23:27:11 <sortkrudt> still less radiaton of scanners at the airport than the accident in japan after last tsunami.
23:27:14 <Bjarni> yeah, but still a major issue
23:27:48 <DDR> 'less than chernobyl'... that's like comparing a very small puncture in a garden hose to firehydrant a car just ran into.
23:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> they meanwhile say some regions are even more radiated than after tschernobyl
23:28:35 <Bjarni> 'less than chernobyl' <-- sounds like "ferry sunk, 500 people drowned..... so what, it's less than Titanic"
23:28:38 <sortkrudt> assumption of private wanting evil is utterly self-contradictinary
23:28:55 <Elukka> fukushima is peanuts compared to the tsunami disaster at large
23:29:08 <Elukka> people only focus on it instead of the tsunami itself because it sounds more spectacular
23:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: we have seen how a bunch of egoists can bring entire countries and the world economy to its knees
23:29:29 <Elukka> it was a significant disaster, but it was far from the worst that japan experienced that day
23:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: how's that a glorious chapter of capitalism?
23:29:43 <Bjarni> the tsunami disaster can be fixed. Leaking radiation isn't something fixable
23:29:44 <DDR> Bjarni: More like '5 people drowned'...
23:29:53 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. yea. especially those who think they are not egoists. ehhe. every humanbeing is egoists. they need to lvie their life. they do it anyway
23:30:29 <DDR> Bjarni: Of course it is. You stop radiation leaking like you stop any other leak... it's just harder to get to. ;)
23:30:32 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, economy died cause of regulation, not the lack of. you should look into austrian economics, nor keynaism
23:30:40 <DDR> 3-Mile Island leaked, and it stopped soon enough.
23:31:13 <Bjarni> DDR: if it's that easy to stop, then why is there still a leak? Also what about all the radiation, which has already leaked into the sea and farmland?
23:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: please give me some of the stuff you smoked
23:31:25 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. gief arguments plx.
23:31:29 <DDR> It's not _easy_ at all. It's just not impossible.
23:31:55 <sortkrudt> I know for a fact that system of printing press and that our govt is our God will fail.
23:31:57 <Bjarni> people are still evacuated and it looks like more people should have been evacuated, but it's unrealistic to evacuate millions of people
23:31:59 <glx> Bjarni: the problem is not stopping it, it's accessing the building
23:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: the economy collapsed because there was an "imaginary" economy that didn't have corrective measures (like taxes on transactions)
23:32:23 <Bjarni> I see those two issues as one issue
23:32:28 <sortkrudt> Gold have rissen 1500% since 90s. its for a reason: its not politically controlled. it reflects the market beautifully
23:32:30 <DDR> That's leaked. It's not continuing to leak... it might leech, and disperse, but I don't think enough has actually leaked out of the power plant to be lethal. Probably cancerous in the long run...
23:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: that means it builds up until it collapses. sooner rather than later nowadays.
23:32:48 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. bs. its the taxes and bailout that destroys the economy
23:32:53 <Elukka> okay, random people i asked suggest the original version with less random detail looks better
23:33:03 <sortkrudt> (that is, govt. interfering with the free market)
23:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: the bailouts were _after_ it already collapsed
23:33:36 <sortkrudt> sure. but govt. _strongly encourraged_ people to lend people to those who cant pay back. free market would never ever let that happend.
23:33:40 * Bjarni notes DDR supports nuclear power, even when the evidence is against it
23:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the "free market" does simply not work. there is no "natural balance"
23:33:42 <sortkrudt> it was politically descission.
23:33:54 <DDR> Mostly, too, the chernobyl plant actually *blew up*. It didn't leak so much as vaporize. Now, in Japan, nothing has blown up. You can drink different water, but you can't breathe different air. :P
23:34:02 <Bjarni> if it were harmless, would exports from Japan stop?
23:34:02 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause. yes it is. dont you balance your self with your friend? you need a comitee to live with others?
23:34:10 <Eddi|zuHause> DDR: the fukushima plant is still leaking radiation. lots of.
23:34:13 <DDR> Bjarni: Well, how many people die from coal-fired power plants and their smog?
23:34:38 <Elukka> coal kills many many more people than nuclear, chernobyl included
23:34:40 <Bjarni> exported food and goods have been found to be radioactive in excess of limits and have been stopped when entering other countries
23:34:59 <sortkrudt> anyway. humans law suck ass. just ignore them. its more about moral, which we are not tought in schools anymore.
23:35:17 <Swissfan91> I've drawn my FIRST SPRITE EVERYONE! :)
23:35:42 <Elukka> okay can we all talk about sprites and not nuclear for a while :P
23:35:48 <Bjarni> Swissfan91: I did that ages ago. I have yet to make one, which is good enough to include in the game though :p
23:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: kitchens kill most people
23:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: ban kitchens!
23:36:10 <Bjarni> coal power kills far less people than cars
23:36:16 <DDR> Besides, how else do we *get* power? We've only got so much coal and oil, our rivers are already dammed, and burning our forests seems unpalatable. Sure, there are various 'green' options like solar panels, but they're kind of beans compared to a large nuclear power plant.
23:36:43 <DDR> Bjarni: For a good working example, look at France. How many times have their nuclear power plants been in the news?
23:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> DDR: currently, mankind uses like 2.5 times the energy that earth can regenerate
23:37:07 <Bjarni> if we use only one power source, then we would actually last longer on coal than nuclear power
23:37:10 <glx> a lot after fukushima DDR :)
23:37:19 <DDR> Yeah. We're kind of fucked in that regard. :/
23:37:20 <Bjarni> we have coal for 400+ years with the current demands
23:37:33 <sortkrudt> and prolly oil 100 years ++
23:37:44 <Swissfan91> thanks for the vote of confidence Bjarni :P
23:37:45 <DDR> glx: Heh, OK, you've got a point. I guess I meant, 'in the news because of a malfunction'.
23:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: depending on who you ask, "oil peak" already happened or is in the next ~5-10 years
23:38:03 <Elukka> we have coal for 400 years, but is the earth going to tolerate burning all that
23:38:20 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, its alot of oil left. you just need to work to get it out.
23:38:37 <DDR> sortkrudt: Yes, but we'll work harder and get less.
23:38:46 <Bjarni> Swissfan91: for the record: I didn't see your sprite. It could be fine. However there is no law that all sprites are good sprites ;)
23:38:50 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: like in canada, where "oil sands" require more energy than you get out of? that makes sense.
23:39:13 <DDR> Nah, oil sands is a _massive_ net gain.
23:39:15 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, yes, and the free market will solve it. if it wouldnt be metal we would have cars made out of wood.
23:39:32 <sortkrudt> free market solves everything :)
23:39:36 <DDR> Truly epic, much to the loss of some rather pretty forests above it. :/
23:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: "oil peak" is the point where the global production of oil cannot be increased anymore
23:39:42 <sortkrudt> what free market doesnt solve, its not worth doing.
23:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: it doesn't mean the oil has "run out"
23:40:02 <Bjarni> <Elukka> we have coal for 400 years, but is the earth going to tolerate burning all that <--- if you talk about CO2, then yes. We can reduce CO2 emissions and then a volcano burps and we gained nothing
23:40:02 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, okey. but then they go for some other stuff. we have just barely started our explotation of the globe.
23:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: but it means that when demand rises, and production doesn't rise as well, the price is going to skyrocket
23:40:31 <Bjarni> I think the known oil reserves will last 42 years.... assuming current usage
23:40:33 <sortkrudt> yes it is. science is not even close to finish its explotation.
23:40:42 <sortkrudt> sure. they've said this for 100 years.
23:40:54 <sortkrudt> they find oil field close to everyday
23:40:59 <Bjarni> we have natural gas for 130 years or something though
23:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: look at the oil crisis in the 1970's
23:41:11 <Elukka> volcanoes generate... going from memory here, but i can find sources... about 200 million tonnes of co2 a year, while humans generate over 30 000 million tonnes
23:41:18 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: nobody believed that the US oil runs out
23:41:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and then it suddenly did
23:41:28 <Eddi|zuHause> prices skyrocketed
23:41:47 <sortkrudt> prices skyrocketing was OK. naturally
23:42:01 <Elukka> when eyjafjallajökull erupted, co2 emissions dropped as european planes were grounded
23:42:02 <sortkrudt> if you ahve ten people wanting ur stuff, instead of one man, its Ok to turn up the prize.
23:42:10 <Elukka> as those planes alone make way more co2 than the volcano
23:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: but the "free market" was horribly unprepared for that event.
23:42:24 <sortkrudt> we haven't had free market for ages. only parts of it.
23:42:31 <sortkrudt> but the free market will surivive. allways has
23:42:39 <sortkrudt> as long as u have humanbeings you have a free market.
23:42:45 <sortkrudt> only illegal ofcourse. he he
23:42:57 <Bjarni> CO2 estimation in Eyjafjallajokull turned out to be way lowered than what was measured
23:43:22 <sortkrudt> I love stuff which are not controlled. its so nice. I don't ask any govt. who I'm going to ahve babies with, nor do I ask them what I should do. Govt. cannot controll humanbenigs. no humans can do that. it has been tried.
23:43:29 <sortkrudt> only massmurders think this way
23:43:36 <Bjarni> which in turn leads to the possibility of redesigning the entire model of estimating CO2 in volcanic activity
23:43:52 <sortkrudt> maybe we should forbid volcanic activity? hehe
23:43:58 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: you're not even listening.
23:44:16 <sortkrudt> yea I'm. its just that I heard this point of view so many times.
23:44:25 <sortkrudt> govt. suck ass at everything.
23:44:39 <Bjarni> <sortkrudt> maybe we should forbid volcanic activity? hehe <--- yeah.... let's fine Iceland. Clearly they let out much more CO2 per person than the rest of us
23:44:42 <sortkrudt> if govt. doesnt why not have govt. controlling everything.
23:44:49 <Bjarni> (they are like 350k people)
23:44:49 <sortkrudt> Bjarni. hehe. yea. :)
23:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm having the feeling i am discussing about homeopathy, and all the counter-arguments i get are: "of course it doesn't work if you combine it with other medicine"
23:45:25 <sortkrudt> the nice with ayn rand is that she describes reality how it is without politicians fuckin' it .
23:45:48 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, capitalism doesnt work if you blend in sociialism.
23:45:53 <Elukka> even if volcanoes emit more than we think... do you think they can emit two orders of magnitude more?
23:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the nice thing with karl marx is that he describes reality how it is without economicians fuckin' it
23:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: socialism doesn't work if you blend in capitalism.
23:46:58 <Elukka> i like my mixed economy i live in thank you very much
23:47:25 <sortkrudt> Eddi|zuHause, true, but socialism doesnt work. we are all egoists. it will allways fail due this fact.
23:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: true, but capitalism doesn't work, we are all egoists, it will always fail due to this fact.
23:48:10 <sortkrudt> thats the reason for capitalism works. it admits that we are all egoists.
23:48:11 <Bjarni> looks up Taal (a volcano in the Philippines). Earlier this year the volcano were measured to release 4,600 tonnes/day and it wasn't erupting
23:48:45 <glx> for me the main problem is stock market
23:49:12 <sortkrudt> main problem is regulations which kills the little man to do stuff. in us 70% of the market is 'non'stock-market'.
23:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the reason socialism works, it balances the fact that we are all egoists
23:50:10 <Elukka> that would be less than 2 million tonnes a year
23:50:24 <Bjarni> socialism doesn't work. People are egoists and when people lose the possibility to gain stuff personally from working, then people stop working
23:50:39 <Elukka> if you had ten thousand volcanoes releasing that much, human emissions would still dwarf volcano emissions
23:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: have you looked at the chicago food exchange? they had to split their stocks between "i want to actually sell/buy food" and "i just want to gamble on stuff". and then the "gamble" section has 10 times more "value" than the "real" market
23:50:48 <Elukka> that's how much we burn stuff
23:50:52 <Bjarni> <Elukka> that would be less than 2 million tonnes a year <--- from a non-erupting volcano
23:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: how does that blend in with your 70% figure?
23:51:26 <Elukka> it's a tiny amount even if every single volcano on earth that is not erupting releases that much
23:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> sortkrudt: looks more like 10% to me.
23:51:32 <Elukka> then you add in the ones that do erupt and it's still a tiny amount
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