IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-05
00:00:24 <glx> you can have a full chain with only one id
00:00:39 <Yexo> there are still some optimizations to be made in NML to reduce the action2-id usage, but as long as it doesn't give you an error just continue with what you want
00:02:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm quite sure i will run into one or another limit
00:02:31 <Yexo> we'll see what we can do about that once you run into one
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00:30:14 <Tatsh> planetmaker, almost there with distcc!
01:14:07 <pjpe> am i crazy or did there used to be a colour scheme in openttd called cyan
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03:05:05 <Tatsh> updated
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05:31:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22894 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/cocoa_v.h: -Doc: Some sprinkles of doxygen for the cocoa video driver
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06:12:27 <Terkhen> good morning
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06:48:41 <dihedral> greetings
06:51:49 <planetmaker> hello dihedral
06:53:07 <dihedral> :-)
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06:56:38 <dihedral> Mucht? well hello :-)
06:56:50 <Mucht> hi dihedral :)
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07:15:05 <Neon> Kommt ihr auf
07:18:31 <__ln__> Nein danke, hier essen.
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07:20:29 <planetmaker> Grammatikfehler, __ln__
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07:23:06 <peter1138> fredddieeeeee
07:28:05 <planetmaker> moin peter1138 :-)
07:28:08 <planetmaker> you mean...
07:28:11 <planetmaker> @topic get -1
07:28:11 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: English only
07:28:12 <planetmaker> ?
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07:40:16 <pjpesfsf> is there a command in openttd to make it run for a certain number of ticks
07:40:17 <pjpesfsf> then quit
07:41:21 <planetmaker> yes
07:41:28 <planetmaker> checkout the command line help
07:41:40 <pjpesfsf> openttd -h?
07:41:42 <planetmaker> ^
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07:43:48 <planetmaker> hm... my advice is not as helpful as I had hoped for
07:43:53 <pjpesfsf> yeah i don't see it
07:44:06 <pjpesfsf> unless it's an option for debug
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07:44:57 <planetmaker> I don't recall exactly, I'm afraid. Might be
07:47:01 <pjpesfsf> oh well
07:49:32 <planetmaker> try like "./openttd -v null 1000"
07:49:36 <planetmaker> or similar
07:49:57 <planetmaker> (just a random guess from my broken memory)
07:50:42 <pjpesfsf> nope
07:50:47 <pjpesfsf> just shows the help
07:51:08 <pjpesfsf> -t 1000 launches the game
07:51:13 <pjpesfsf> i have no idea if this will work
07:51:53 <pjpesfsf> about how long is 1000 ticks
07:54:03 <Hirundo> @calc 100 / 74
07:54:03 <DorpsGek> Hirundo: 1.35135135135
07:54:11 <pjpesfsf> well i'm pretty sure it didn't work anyway
07:54:18 <Hirundo> @calc 1000 / 74
07:54:18 <DorpsGek> Hirundo: 13.5135135135
07:54:26 <Hirundo> ^13.5 days
07:57:14 <planetmaker> game days
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07:57:33 <planetmaker> 1000 / 74 * 30
07:57:37 <planetmaker> @calc 1000 / 74 * 30
07:57:37 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 405.405405405
07:57:41 <planetmaker> 405 seconds
07:58:03 <planetmaker> ehm... must be wrong :-) 4 seconds
07:59:24 <planetmaker> you need to ask about the option later (tonight CET possibly), pjpesfsf - then more people who could know are present
07:59:28 <planetmaker> Or post to the forums
07:59:46 <pjpesfsf> i looked through the command line scanner function and there doesn't seem to be anything about it
08:00:03 <planetmaker> yeah, I didn't see it either. But I know that I used it :-)
08:00:23 <planetmaker> it was like without graphics driver
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09:08:04 <peter1138> oh, my server's not got pause on no players, heh
09:08:10 <peter1138> it's 4183 :p
09:08:14 <peter1138> i've never been on it, haha
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09:50:04 <Terkhen> it is openttd -v null:ticks = number IIRC
09:50:07 <Terkhen> but of course he's gone :)
09:51:39 <planetmaker> yup, of course :-)
10:07:03 <planetmaker> <-- so... this is an idea?
10:07:33 <planetmaker> it only works with the null video driver.
10:08:02 <Eddi|zuHause> looks odd...
10:08:36 <Terkhen> you need to do something about the cookies :P
10:08:51 <planetmaker> delete your cookie related to that website
10:09:08 <Terkhen> I know, but doing that every other week is tedious :)
10:09:36 <planetmaker> yes
10:10:20 <planetmaker> I couldn't yet convince some other person that it is not my personal issue ;-)
10:10:55 <Ammler> I believe you guys, you just never told me how to fix...
10:11:05 <Terkhen> I don't know how to fix :P
10:11:09 <peter1138> seems a silly idea to document that there
10:11:11 <Terkhen> I just use paste.openttdcoop normally
10:11:19 <Terkhen> and one day, Internal Server ERror
10:11:28 <Terkhen> planetmaker: IMO it should be documented "below"
10:11:39 <peter1138> readme.txt? :S
10:11:41 <Terkhen> as part of the null video driver description
10:11:54 <planetmaker> peter1138, it makes sense IMHO in the command line help
10:12:03 <Terkhen>
10:12:56 <peter1138> it's a hardly a common requirement
10:13:08 <planetmaker> so is using the null video driver
10:13:13 <peter1138> someone who knows they want to do that should've read the readme
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10:14:13 <planetmaker> confess, peter1138, you take joy in "rtfm, you lazy <whatever>" ;-)
10:14:55 <Terkhen> it's the quickest way to answer a question :P
10:17:51 <planetmaker> "To see all startup options available to you, start OpenTTD with the ./openttd -h" option. This might help you tweak some of the settings." ;-)
10:21:22 <Terkhen> "null" is describer later, IMO it should go in the null video driver description
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10:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, parameters available to each driver should be documented in that section
10:23:06 <peter1138> yeah
10:23:22 <peter1138> extmidi could do with it too
10:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
10:23:50 * peter1138 discovers that ctrl-end gets to the end of irssi's backlog
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10:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh... nmlc takes ages
11:00:57 <planetmaker> with FIRS it takes about three times as long as nforenum/grfcodec took in order to compile the version prior to conversion to NML
11:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause> > time make
11:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> real 1m25.212s
11:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> user 1m21.103s
11:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> sys 0m3.907s
11:02:47 <Yexo> real 0m25.694s
11:02:47 <Yexo> user 0m18.250s
11:02:47 <Yexo> sys 0m1.220s
11:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> this is CETS
11:05:04 <peter1138> optimise run time, not compile time
11:05:06 <Yexo> ah, I assumed FIRS
11:05:27 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: if the makefile has the -c flag set you can disable that while developing
11:05:36 <Yexo> cropping sprites takes some extra time
11:05:58 <planetmaker> hm... ogfx+airports takes some time here, too ;-)
11:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes, optimise the run time of the compiler ;)
11:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: planetmaker knows the makefile magic... i have no clue
11:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i just type make
11:07:07 <Yexo> it's not set
11:07:25 <peter1138> :p
11:07:26 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, make NMLFLAGS=-c
11:07:31 <planetmaker> or whatever :-)
11:07:34 <planetmaker> or nothing
11:07:45 <planetmaker> yes, -c is not set by default. I wonder whether I should
11:07:47 <Yexo> nothing is faster, including -c might result in a smaller grf
11:08:03 <Yexo> faster as in compiles faster
11:08:17 <planetmaker> Or whether I should only add -c to releases :-)
11:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, release sounds fine
11:08:39 <Yexo> yes, but we'll have to keep that in mind
11:08:49 <planetmaker> yup
11:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS sprites would very probably benefit from -c
11:09:00 <planetmaker> might trip incorrectly dealt-with sprites
11:09:06 <Yexo> it might result in subtle bugs that not reproduce able without -c
11:09:13 <planetmaker> yup
11:09:19 <planetmaker> that's what makes me hesitant
11:09:33 <planetmaker> I'll surely forget - and wonder
11:09:38 <Yexo> for CETS it's fine
11:09:57 <Yexo> the only problems that will arise are with parent/child-sprites in spritelayouts were the parent sprite is cropped
11:10:10 <planetmaker> true. Unlikely in vehicle sets :-)
11:10:39 <planetmaker> uh.... we should be VERY careful indeed adding that to FIRS
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11:11:43 * Yexo wonders what eddi is doing with cets that makes the compile time so long
11:12:37 <planetmaker> Yexo, it has a few hundret engines, with 24(?) * n views each
11:12:39 <Yexo> hmm, final grf size: 3.4Mb
11:13:49 <planetmaker> I'm not surprised ;-)
11:14:16 <Terkhen> it already has so many engines?
11:14:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the really complicated stuff isn't even done yet
11:14:27 <planetmaker> maybe not hundrets... but...
11:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: the engines are autogenerated from the tracking table
11:14:38 <Yexo> "make NML_FLAGS=-c" results in a 2.3Mb grf
11:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (with dummy graphics)
11:14:40 <Terkhen> nice :P
11:14:45 <Yexo> so yes, cropping is very useful
11:15:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: even after cropping, lots of redundancy is left
11:15:44 <planetmaker> Terkhen, the tracking table has roughly 300+x vehicles
11:16:34 <planetmaker> @calc 2300000/330
11:16:34 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 6969.6969697
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11:16:50 <planetmaker> 7kByte per vehicle is not that bad, including graphics
11:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's likely going to get worse ;)
11:18:59 <planetmaker> there can be only one (direction)
11:19:21 <planetmaker> well, we should not worry about that really
11:19:36 <planetmaker> only when it "destroys" OpenTTD ;-)
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11:25:17 * Eddi|zuHause could use a callback to set the anchor point of the sprite
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13:43:31 <Yexo> given a function: void f(int arg[3]) { ...}, is it possible to call it like this: f({3, 2, 5}); (I know this doesn't work, but is there syntax that does?)
13:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of...
13:48:04 <__ln__> not quite, but given that call syntax it is possible to declare a function matching it in C++0x.
13:48:33 <Yexo> yes, I know, unfortunately I can't use C++0x
13:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that's called C++11 nowadays?
13:49:27 <__ln__> it should be called, i suppose
13:55:35 <valhallasw> Yexo: maybe something like f(int x[]={3,2,5})?
13:55:57 <valhallasw> although I guess initializations are not assignments
13:56:37 <Yexo> valhallasw: thanks, but that doesn't work either
14:00:35 <__ln__> it's not possible, i think i would have heard about it during all these years if it was.
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14:54:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i think changing offset of sprites needs to be done in something callback 36-ish that is called every movement step
14:58:21 <peter1138> write openttd in nfo
14:58:51 <planetmaker> lol, CB36-ish every movement step?
14:59:13 <planetmaker> can I have BlueGene, too?
15:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think some parts of the code already do that
15:02:23 <Yexo> that doesn't mean it's a good idea to introduce a new callback that is called for every vehicle on every tick
15:02:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: better than every drawing cycle
15:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that may depend on map size and vehicle count
15:03:14 <Yexo> how is that better?
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15:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: but everything called less often is defeating the intended purpose
15:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you introduce a callback flag, it won't even affect performance that much, if no appropriate grf is loaded
15:06:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and if it is used, it is not worse than a vehicle set using the motion counter for animation
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15:28:51 * Eddi|zuHause wonders about running sounds
15:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> 2-cylinders: pfff-pfff, 3-cylinders: pfff-tschk-tschk, 4-cylinders: pfff-tschk-pfff-tschk (or similar)
15:30:15 <planetmaker> :-)
15:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> number of cylinders is already in the tracking table
15:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> in the TE calculation
15:52:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22895 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ -Add: [OSX] Alternative code for the API calls deprecated in OSX 10.6 in the quartz video driver
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17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22896 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt korean.txt polish.txt portuguese.txt spanish.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by junho2813
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by wojteks86
17:45:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
17:45:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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17:58:24 <Wolf01> hello
17:59:59 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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18:08:49 <andythenorth> evening
18:09:58 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
18:10:29 <andythenorth> yay
18:10:34 <andythenorth> new egrvts forthcoming
18:10:42 <andythenorth> persuade him to code it properly :P
18:12:32 <andythenorth> egrvts is coded properly
18:12:35 <andythenorth> but not maintainably
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18:13:45 <Terkhen> maintainability is overrated (as long as it is coded perfectly and no one adds new features to OpenTTD)
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18:28:43 <andythenorth> hmm
18:28:49 <andythenorth> 13 million bananas downloads
18:28:53 <andythenorth> of newgrfs
18:28:56 <andythenorth> it's not a small number
18:29:39 <frosch123> yeah, compare that to 125 downloads of rc1 yesterday :p
18:29:54 * SpComb recalls his initial openttd + curl concept gui
18:30:06 <SpComb> well, libcurl
18:33:17 <Alberth> for 100 000 users, that'd be 130 newgrfs per user
18:34:26 <Terkhen> :P
18:34:36 <Terkhen> there must be a lot of people that downloads everything
18:36:41 <andythenorth> are there 100k users?
18:36:57 * andythenorth thinks there are about 20k-25k users on a rolling average
18:37:10 <andythenorth> many of which will be short-time users
18:37:29 <frosch123> that would mean the average user only plays for one week
18:37:38 <frosch123> and then never again
18:38:07 <andythenorth> what's the number behind that? I am just going on downloads of my grfs, which *might* not be reliable :D
18:38:20 <frosch123>
18:38:46 <Terkhen> heh, 250k for 1.0.5
18:39:02 <frosch123> Terkhen: it has not yet catched 0.6.3
18:39:24 <Terkhen> :)
18:39:47 <Terkhen> if 0.6.x releases followed the same pattern than the current ones, 0.6.3 had advantage :P
18:39:55 <frosch123> and maybe in a year 1.0.0 overtakes :p
18:40:37 <frosch123> Terkhen: if you use that measurement, then 1.0.0 is the best by far
18:40:52 <Terkhen> true :)
18:41:05 <Terkhen> people went crazy with that one
18:41:22 <frosch123> yeah, it almost broke the server :p
18:42:11 <Alberth> andythenorth: RB once made that estimate of 100K users
18:43:00 <andythenorth> we should build 'ottd phone hom'
18:43:03 <andythenorth> home /s
18:43:09 <andythenorth> but users seem not to like that :P
18:43:20 * andythenorth turns off all 'apple phone home' stuff
18:45:44 <Alberth> we are very happy with you 'phoning home' here :p
18:46:37 * Alberth hugs andythenorth
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19:02:03 * andythenorth shuns physical contact :P
19:05:01 <andythenorth> is there to be any coding today?
19:05:48 <Alberth> I am coding, but for a different program :p
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19:08:19 * andythenorth experiences boredom
19:08:21 <andythenorth> this is unusual
19:10:16 <_1009> You can explain me best practices about calculating the spot where a user clicks in the cheat window?
19:10:25 * _1009 is sort of puzzled
19:13:54 <frosch123> is it a old window which does complete custom drawing? :p
19:14:30 <_1009> Eh, I think so. In the other code I'm looking at it's using uint offset = 10 + GetStringBoundingBox(buf).width; all over the place
19:15:52 <_1009> and that offset number keeps jumping... it sometimes differs by 16 even .__o"
19:19:39 <frosch123> all over the place?
19:19:42 <frosch123> i only see it once
19:19:55 <frosch123> to draw the company coloured icon after the text
19:21:25 <_1009> Right. I put another 2 instances of it in there, but it was just an illustration of how the button clicks are calculated (I think)
19:22:11 <_1009> Anyway, the real problem is that GetStringBoundingBox() doesn't return just one number... it varies a little with every click. What I am trying to do is putting two arrows at the end of a string, where you can select a company which you would like to delete
19:22:37 <_1009> And placing those arrows isn't too hard, but determining whether they have been clicked on is tricky (for me)
19:23:23 <frosch123> if the length varies, then maybe the string uses parameters, which you did not set?
19:24:24 <_1009> It uses parameters, but I did set them the first time... do I have to set them again for GetStringBoundingBox() the second time?
19:24:37 <_1009> Anyway, thanks for the tip, I'm going to look into that.
19:25:11 <Alberth> line 342: if (!IsInsideMM(x, 20, 40)) return; means 'buttons run from 20 to 40 horizontally', and '(x >= 30)' decides which button
19:25:43 <_1009> Uhu, that's what I figured Alberth
19:25:59 <_1009> The thing is, I want to introduce new buttons, after the string (so not in between 20 and 40)
19:26:11 <Alberth> of course RTL languages do stuff the other way around :)
19:26:14 <_1009> Where you can select an AI to stop (equivalent to the stop_ai command)
19:26:28 <_1009> Yea I figured that too, I made a note in the source code for supporting RTL
19:26:44 <Alberth> why not add a regular button, much easier
19:26:59 <_1009> Because there need to be two buttons, one for selecting the right AI, one for stopping it
19:27:03 <_1009> I guess.
19:27:15 <Alberth> 2 regular buttons? :p
19:27:45 <_1009> In that case I have no idea what you mean by a "regular" button :P mind you, this is one of the first pieces of OpenTTD software that I've seen
19:27:48 <Alberth> with nice text 'stop AI', which gets added to the translation system, and causes auto-resizing of the buttons
19:28:22 <Alberth> the pressable things in the intro menu would be a good example, I think :)
19:29:31 <Alberth> although it was one of the first windows to be converted, so it may be a bit non-optimal
19:30:55 <Alberth> eg line 189 intro_gui.cpp
19:31:10 <_1009> Hm. But that'd mean I'd have to convert all of the cheat menu things, and I just want to get familiair with the code a little so I can go on with another problem
19:32:00 <Alberth> why? just keep the current widget, and add two button at the bottom, wouldn't that work?
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19:33:09 <_1009> I guess so, but it'd be so /different/ from everything else... I guess...
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19:34:49 <Alberth> the cheat window is sort of a weird window :)
19:35:30 <_1009> Haha, no matter what I do I guess I'm still keeping it weird, new buttons or old buttons.
19:35:51 <_1009> The initializing a variable thing worked though, the width is at least constant now.
19:37:41 <Alberth> I am not sure stopping an AI should be considered a cheat though
19:38:12 <frosch123> Alberth: currently it is a console command :p
19:38:31 <frosch123> _1009: you could also only put a single bool switch in the cheat menu to enable the cheat
19:38:33 <Alberth> yes, and as such, I can stop an AI without cheating
19:38:39 <frosch123> then put stop buttons into the company windows
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19:39:02 <frosch123> e.g. the change-production cheat also does not require you to select a industry in the cheat gui
19:39:03 <_1009> It's been suggested by planetmaker, I'm not sure either. If it's going to get in the trunk or not, I don't really care, for me it's just to practice C++ and to prepare a little for AIAirport-API
19:39:11 <_1009> frosch123: shit, that's a good idea.
19:39:19 <_1009> fml
19:39:23 * _1009 discards current code XD
19:39:28 <frosch123> well, i also voted for making it a cheat
19:39:44 <frosch123> as bankrupting opponents with a single click is silly :p
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19:40:58 * Alberth was considering using the AI config window
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19:41:17 <_1009> AI config window is probably even easier, because it only lists AIs instead of all companies
19:41:23 <frosch123> or that, would also allow you to start a new ai of your choice
19:41:58 <_1009> Alright I'm first going to look into how buttons are added to changing production
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19:42:58 <DarkSide> hi folks, anyone here they talk german ?
19:44:17 <pjpe> ja
19:44:18 <pjpe> sehr gut
19:44:22 <pjpe> nein!
19:44:23 <DarkSide> hi
19:44:30 <DarkSide> fein
19:44:30 <pjpe> i learn all my german from enemy territory
19:44:43 <DarkSide> ^^
19:44:45 <DarkSide> np
19:44:54 <DarkSide> i wisper at you, ok ?
19:44:58 <andythenorth> DarkSide: there are native germans here
19:45:08 <andythenorth> if you poke them a bit, they might answer :P
19:45:43 * andythenorth isn't sure which ones are native german, and which are other northern-europe, swiss, etc :P
19:46:03 <pjpe> yeah i don't actually know german
19:46:03 <pjpe> except two or three phrases from enemy territory
19:46:03 <pjpe> which i will just shout at you over and over
19:46:08 <DarkSide> <--- nativ german ;) over 20 years ago i have lern english xD
19:46:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess you are sure they are continental :p
19:46:19 <DarkSide> learn ^^
19:46:48 <Alberth> today sounds like a good day to practice your English again :)
19:46:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm not even sure of that :P
19:46:56 <andythenorth> some of them are spookily english-sounding
19:47:12 <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder if eddi is from essex :P
19:47:25 <andythenorth> dunno why
19:47:47 <andythenorth> in my experience, germans tend to speak and write english better than the english
19:47:53 <frosch123> hmm only 18 years for me to learn english
19:48:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: oh probably. Foreign people learning Dutch are way better at Dutch grammar too :)
19:48:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: if you have browsed german forums, you would also think that english men speak better german than the germans :p
19:48:53 <pjpe> germans are probably more pedantic about speaking it correctly
19:49:02 <pjpe> while english people and north americans just go hog wild with slang and weird phrases
19:49:10 <pjpe> like a bat out of hell
19:49:26 <DarkSide> pjpe look at wisper pls
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19:50:11 <frosch123> well, people from us east coast remain to speak the easiest understandable english
19:50:24 <frosch123> err, west coast...
19:50:32 <pjpe> fuck the west coast
19:50:32 <DarkSide> and with out slang
19:50:49 * andythenorth learnt german once
19:50:54 <andythenorth> not succesfully
19:52:26 <andythenorth> most educated english people of a certain age know the answer to
19:52:35 <andythenorth> "wie komme ich am besten zum rathaus?"
19:52:59 <DarkSide> immer dem gruft geruch nach gehen xD
19:53:09 * frosch123 would suspect monthy python, but does not know the joke
19:53:42 <andythenorth> it's not a joke :P
19:53:45 <andythenorth> the answer is
19:53:52 <DarkSide> me too
19:54:05 <andythenorth> "nemen sie die erste strasse links. Der rathaus is auf dem linken seite"
19:55:15 <andythenorth> we all had the same german text book
19:55:19 <frosch123> well, is is a monthy python sketch?
19:55:25 <DarkSide> das rathaus, nicht der
19:55:30 <andythenorth> for some reason this all most of us can remember from 3 years of german :P
19:55:31 <frosch123> oh, a text book :p
19:55:43 <frosch123> so, i shall tell you stories about kate's flat?
19:56:52 <frosch123> though most memorisable about learning the clock: it's two to two
19:56:53 <andythenorth> well we aren't doing anything better :P
19:57:27 <Alberth> don't remember the first German lesson, but the first English was about Keith playing in the sand :)
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19:57:53 <DarkSide> i looking for some help, to understand the openttd signals
19:58:15 <frosch123> actualy my english teacher in 8th grade was a native brittish. she was usually quite shocked about what kind of english we learn at school :p
19:58:29 <Alberth> DarkSide: just post the question here
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19:59:14 <DarkSide> i search an tuturial ( best in germen ) to leanr that signals do and can combineted with other signals
19:59:16 <Alberth> DarkSide: <-- know that page? it looks like there is a German translation too
19:59:41 <DarkSide> sry, but that are crap ....
19:59:45 <_1009> I'm going offline again, thanks for the help Alberth, frosch123. Will continue working on that next time :3
19:59:53 <frosch123> DarkSide:
20:00:05 <Alberth> <-- or this one
20:00:08 <DarkSide> they i know too ...
20:00:22 <sortkrudt> hard to be a german i guess
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20:00:38 <frosch123> we regulary recommend those two
20:00:43 <frosch123> they are the best we know :)
20:01:48 <DarkSide> they all dont help too andstanding, combination the signals, too rule the trains ..... :-(
20:02:24 <frosch123> are you searching beginner stuff or advanced stuff? :p
20:02:27 <Alberth> if you post a picture with an actual problem here or at the forum, I am sure people can explain to you what you want to know
20:02:35 <DarkSide> yup, that i do
20:03:00 <DarkSide> @frosch123
20:03:13 <DarkSide> beginer
20:03:31 <Alberth> and it would be nice if you fix the wiki too, we are too advanced to understand how the page is broken
20:04:22 <Alberth> that is, things we consider trivial may be a big stumbling block for you
20:04:34 <Alberth> but since we don't know, we cannot fix it
20:04:39 <DarkSide> ill do that, iam registert on the openttd wiki and make me my owne sandbox in my profile
20:05:01 <Alberth> thanks
20:05:52 <DarkSide> the bigest problems are all the very smal grafics of the signal
20:06:17 <DarkSide> i wish to have some bigger resulution in the wiki of them
20:07:04 <DarkSide> the ingame snapshots quality is crap ...
20:08:51 <Hirundo> In-game screenshots (Ctrl+S, png) are lossless
20:08:53 <Alberth> perhaps add a picture of the signal gui, and show with lines or so which signal is which?
20:09:45 <DarkSide> easy english pls, iam nativ german not english ...
20:10:13 <DarkSide> and i have a very long time ago learn english
20:10:21 <sortkrudt> does a larger trainstation get the goods more quickly?
20:10:31 <DarkSide> that too
20:10:35 <sortkrudt> off*
20:10:58 <frosch123> sortkrudt: the train may not be longer than the station
20:11:03 <frosch123> the rest does not matter
20:11:42 <sortkrudt> Ok. I have this twelvestation, and have seriuos problems with effectivity. To much waiting, and long waiting for exit. any ideas, or pointing direction on construction of an effective one?
20:12:12 *** Guest8990 is now known as Zuu
20:12:23 <Alberth> DarkSide: I was suggesting to add a picture of the signal gui next to the signals. Then draw a line between each signal and the button at the gui. It can also be indicated in another way of course.
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20:12:58 <Zuu> Isn't a byte >= 0 by definition?
20:13:03 <Alberth> yep
20:13:27 <Zuu> Good, that was my though but I found a >= 0 check in OpenTTD :-)
20:13:48 <Alberth> typedef unsigned char byte;
20:13:50 <Zuu> It is however for a type that is typedef:ed as byte, so it could be there to be strictly clear
20:13:55 <frosch123> sortkrudt: less junctions
20:14:00 <frosch123> more bridges
20:14:35 <frosch123>
20:14:36 <Alberth> Zuu: usually compiler would warn about 'test always true' or so
20:15:28 <Zuu> AIAirport::IsAirportInformationAvailable have a check "type >= 0" where type is indirectly a byte.
20:15:34 <frosch123> Zuu: a byte is >= 0, but not a char
20:15:41 <DarkSide> more signal pics or littlebit smaler as they --->
20:15:41 <sortkrudt> frosch123. thx. common problem eh?
20:15:43 <frosch123> the signedness of char is undefined
20:16:02 <DarkSide> but that in the tuturials
20:16:10 <frosch123> sortkrudt: it's the common site for people needing more than 6 platforms
20:16:12 <frosch123> :p
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20:20:01 <sortkrudt> Yea. well. I had this great idea of diong oil, goods, fruit, corn and food at the same space
20:20:24 <sortkrudt> i've started in 2010, and now in 2040s, and got maglev and everything, but not fun when you have to wait so long on the main-station in my game
20:24:04 <V453000> :D
20:24:08 <V453000> :D
20:24:18 <V453000> "people needing more than 6 platforms" is an awesome definition :D
20:24:41 <sortkrudt> wtf. most people needs more than 6 platforms!
20:24:47 <sortkrudt> at some ponit in the game
20:24:54 <V453000> yes one would think so
20:25:04 <V453000> but there are also people who call themselves playing "realistically"
20:25:11 <V453000> I tend to try to ignore them
20:25:22 <sortkrudt> realistically?
20:25:32 <sortkrudt> i see.
20:25:36 <V453000> yes, make their railways similar to how they are in "real life"
20:25:42 <V453000> honestly: absolute bullshit
20:25:56 <sortkrudt> well. i think they loose alot of the game then
20:26:01 <frosch123> my biggest station in the last game had 10 platforms
20:26:02 <V453000> exactly
20:26:11 <frosch123> but it was actually split into 4 parts
20:26:15 <sortkrudt> mine is twelve but its still fucked up. lolz
20:27:13 <frosch123> anyway, as i usually play with wagon speed limits and without maglev, i do not need so many platforms compared to the number of lines
20:27:32 <V453000> hmm, yes
20:27:38 <sortkrudt> why not maglev?
20:27:46 <frosch123> ugly
20:27:56 <frosch123> i usualy stop once steam engines run out :p
20:28:01 <sortkrudt> you liek pink as ur business colour aswell?
20:28:02 <sortkrudt> he he
20:28:12 <V453000> I like maglev but just as much as any other trains :) The best thing about maglev is that they show how stupid PBS is :)
20:28:22 <sortkrudt> what is pbs?
20:28:29 <V453000> the red signals
20:28:36 <V453000> path based signals aka pretty bad signalling
20:28:49 <sortkrudt> how are they stupid?
20:29:28 <frosch123> sortkrudt: they solve stuff automatic, and thus disallow the player to control stuff in detail
20:29:43 <V453000> if I put aside their technical issues such as trouble with choosing paths correctly, some unexpectable bugs, and what not, they simply make the user think much simplier and thus have problems with improving his networks over time
20:29:53 <V453000> yes, basically what frosch said :)
20:30:00 <sortkrudt> I see.
20:30:05 <sortkrudt> Pre-signals ftw?
20:30:09 <V453000> exactly
20:30:16 <V453000> if you want to become good, then that is the path
20:30:20 <sortkrudt> yea. looks like thats the way.
20:30:36 <sortkrudt> I often have problems they going over their junction, and lbocks every other stuff
20:30:41 <sortkrudt> so the station wont be filled with trains
20:30:52 <frosch123> sortkrudt: you should download a coop savegame from their archive, and check in advance if you want to become like that :p
20:30:57 <sortkrudt> and that happends even with pre- and exit signals.
20:31:02 <V453000> or just joins us playing :) best way to learn that way
20:31:14 <V453000> -s
20:31:20 <Terkhen> frosch123: I think that kind of madness is born, not made :P
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20:31:29 <frosch123> might be :)
20:31:46 <V453000> yes
20:31:49 <sortkrudt> I'm just addicted to this game
20:31:58 <V453000> Terkhen, more true than you might realize
20:32:03 <Terkhen> :P
20:32:04 <sortkrudt> I fell in love with this in the 90s. Left it, and then started recently again.
20:32:15 <sortkrudt> I'm having a break due my pain in my hand :p
20:32:18 <V453000> sortkrudt: then definitely join #openttdcoop :P
20:32:22 <Terkhen> ^ that's the story of my life until I started coding for it
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20:32:58 <Terkhen> lately I have been more addicted to civilization IV
20:33:43 <V453000> I started drawing some sprites so my openttd efforts reduced a bit luckily :d
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20:33:53 <sortkrudt> lolz! cracy shit!
20:34:01 <Zuu> Hmm, is it a feature that current OpenGFX+ Airports have a metropolitan airport view that looks like the city airport?
20:34:06 <V453000> sortkrudt: yes that is it :)
20:34:09 <Zuu> Eg that aircrafts can take off on grass :-p
20:34:27 <Zuu> And drive into the radar without getting damaged :-)
20:35:01 <sortkrudt> So, what is your main goal in-game - money or style?
20:35:29 <Prof_Frink> Ludicrous amounts of money.
20:35:29 <V453000> hard to say, effectiveness probably
20:35:33 <V453000> money is nothing
20:35:37 <V453000> and style ... partially
20:35:42 <Prof_Frink> chick are free
20:35:49 <Terkhen> Zuu: sounds like a bug :P
20:35:50 <Prof_Frink> +s
20:36:08 <Terkhen> sortkrudt: trying to play for an hour without thinking about something to code
20:36:10 <sortkrudt> Well. most effective is to do pure oil/goods, then balance with trains and airport
20:36:12 <Zuu> I do however know that they have commits saying that 4 rotations for most airports are on the way.
20:36:20 <sortkrudt> Terkhen: what do you mean aobut code?
20:36:29 <Terkhen> coding the game :P
20:36:30 <sortkrudt> oh. well
20:36:40 <sortkrudt> I dont code so. that wouldnt be hard
20:36:40 <sortkrudt> :)
20:37:24 <frosch123> oh, i forgot to mention that i usually play in hilly or mountainious
20:37:29 <frosch123> so, no big hubs for me :p
20:37:40 <frosch123> always chaos
20:37:50 <Zuu> Hilly means loveley scenery.
20:37:58 <V453000> arr
20:38:13 <Zuu> Last game I got a nice looking scene in Toyland :-)
20:38:17 <Prof_Frink> Hilly means making full use of the "level land" tool.
20:38:20 <Terkhen> eGRVTS 2 will make me go back to those hilly maps again :P
20:38:37 <sortkrudt> lolz. voting system and everything.
20:38:50 <Terkhen> I have been testing it and it works more nicely regarding realistic acceleration
20:41:13 <frosch123> hmm, what are those arbitrary airports doing in that coop video?
20:41:18 <frosch123> they look as if they are from an ai
20:41:43 <V453000> making money
20:42:12 <V453000> aircraft makes a whole lot of money while not damaging the map
20:42:17 <V453000> as in, making industries grow
20:43:16 <sortkrudt> aircraft is i-win-buttonz of tycoon
20:43:19 <sortkrudt> he he
20:43:22 <Terkhen> yup
20:43:40 <V453000> well, point is
20:43:41 <V453000> you cant win
20:43:46 <V453000> because you play against yourself
20:43:55 <sortkrudt> so you allways loose? He he
20:44:08 <V453000> not entirely
20:44:20 <sortkrudt> depends what your out for. I'm strictly against airplane due the fact of easy cash in. I want to do everything by train
20:44:20 <V453000> you fulfill some of your ideas and next time you try to improve them
20:44:34 <sortkrudt> and substitute with trailers when need more goods/food
20:44:37 <V453000> cash is not a subject sooner or later
20:44:51 <sortkrudt> no. close to never.
20:45:19 <V453000> techniques and logics of how certain parts of network make for much more entertainment than jus making money
20:45:43 <sortkrudt> when techniques are in order there will be heavy money income tho.
20:47:22 <V453000> so what :)
20:47:41 <sortkrudt> alot of cash is a sign of effectivity.
20:47:42 <sortkrudt> thats why
20:47:43 <V453000> when you play for 100 years you can afford anything anyway
20:47:46 <V453000> partially
20:47:49 <sortkrudt> yes.
20:48:21 <V453000> but maybe a lot of cash is also a sign of using the fastest trains, delivering as far as possible, and what ever else, which is not really saying the network is good
20:48:28 <sortkrudt>
20:49:16 <sortkrudt> I've read some of the game-technics, and with effectively getting stuff you higher the risc of gaining amount of stuff produced, thus, allowing more and more trains.
20:49:26 <sortkrudt> I just want to stuff most trains on the same system flowing
20:49:55 <sortkrudt> I have 88 trains, with 4 carrages+train and the system just stopped at my main station.
20:50:05 <sortkrudt> would love to increase this. my main goal.
20:50:18 <V453000> :) good
20:50:48 * Zuu got an alergic response from seeing someone defining capacity without the per time unit part of the definition.
20:50:52 <sortkrudt> I dont know. i just remember back in 90s I just had two train, and some side-tracks. luls.
20:51:36 <sortkrudt> what you mean Zuu?
20:51:59 <Zuu> The amount of trains that are assigned to a station says nothing about which flow it can handle.
20:52:25 <sortkrudt> No, but many stations are connected to the same 'system'.
20:52:40 <sortkrudt> And yes, its the flow I'm talking about.
20:53:09 <V453000> just dont mention amount of trains
20:53:17 <Zuu> I would define flow as [number of vehicles/trains/pcu/etc.] / [some time unit]
20:53:30 <Zuu> (pcu = passenger car unit)
20:53:30 <V453000> or "amount of full lines incoming to the station"
20:53:38 <V453000> that is ... time considered already
20:54:08 <sortkrudt> I can accept that definition.
20:54:28 <Zuu> Possible an even more interesting definition is to use # of tonnes / time unit.
20:54:59 <frosch123> <- awesome, some guy talking eleven minutes about ottd settings :)
20:55:13 <Zuu> However, it is true that OpenTTD currently don't provide any easy way of getting a time-dependent measure of how many trains per time unit a station can handle.
20:55:14 <sortkrudt> well. I watch often how much food, and how much goods are produced per months.
20:55:26 <V453000> well, any real definitions are quite failing bcause there are so many different train sets, ways how to build a network etc.
20:55:38 <frosch123> while he actually seems to know what he is talking about he gets totally lost in the mass somewhere in the middle :p
20:55:43 <V453000> frosch123: I could talk about the settings for days :P
20:56:37 <sortkrudt> oh noes. gemran language.
20:56:44 <frosch123> V453000: i do not even want to know :p
20:56:49 <sortkrudt> bist du german frosch123?
20:56:51 <Zuu> sortkrudt: True, the amount of production / month is probably one of the better measurements of the capacity of a station in OpenTTD.
20:56:54 <V453000> :D
20:56:58 <frosch123> sortkrudt: it's english enough
20:57:06 <frosch123> though he is obviously german
20:57:09 <sortkrudt> he he
20:57:11 <sortkrudt> yea
20:57:40 <frosch123> and he uses gentoo if i heard it correctly
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20:57:47 <sortkrudt>
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21:02:27 <frosch123> he hasn't found the news options though
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21:06:32 <frosch123> the second video in that video tutorial definitely suggests we should disable all news by default :p
21:06:45 <V453000> :D
21:07:29 <frosch123> stupid news constantly popping up, and the user just resigned to turn the off or so
21:09:04 <Wolf01> 'night
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21:09:23 <sortkrudt> seems like this guy is a realistic builder
21:09:30 <sortkrudt> ze german one.
21:09:35 <sortkrudt>
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21:11:16 <Zuu> Oh, he managed to include 2 of my AIs in his settings :-)
21:11:25 <Zuu> Duno if that is good or bad
21:11:41 <sortkrudt> which is your ais?
21:12:05 <Zuu> CluelessPlus, PAXLink, TownCars, TutorialAI and IdleMore
21:12:14 <Zuu> (I hope I didn't forget one :-p)
21:12:28 <Zuu> I also have a library - SuperLib
21:12:39 <frosch123> too bad he uses streetcars, not towncars :)
21:12:52 <Zuu> At least StreetCars is a fork of TownCars.
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21:15:25 <Zuu> OTTD 1.2 movie: "maybe if you don't know what X-com is you should not own a computer"
21:15:46 <frosch123> is totally flabbergasted... that guy knows what variety distribution does, but he does not know the news settings :p
21:16:56 <frosch123> our settings are just bad :)
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21:29:01 <__ln__> would be cool if google maps could optionally show historical borders
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21:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... anybody has a clue how i can influence linux'es oom-behaviour?
21:37:27 <SpComb> adjust to what?
21:37:31 <SpComb> not kill your irssi?
21:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> the only thing it currently does is get stick for half an hour, not even reacting to keyboard input
21:37:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> *stuck
21:38:46 <TrueBrain> use another scheduler
21:38:51 <TrueBrain> what was it called ... BFS?
21:39:42 <Prof_Frink> Get more m so you don't run oo it?
21:39:48 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause2: swapoff -a
21:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> __ln__: happens without swap as well. just earlier
21:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> TrueBrain: what does the scheduler have to do with it?
21:40:40 <SpComb> non-responsiveness sounds like scheduler issues
21:40:43 <peter1138> swapon /dev/sda
21:40:47 <TrueBrain> euh, if your system becomes non-responsive, it is a scheduler issue :)
21:40:48 <__ln__> yes, disabling swap doesn't fix the problem but the nonresponsiveness is over within minutes rather than half an hour to hour
21:40:55 <TrueBrain> which is mostly caused by I/O
21:41:01 <TrueBrain> which is caused by using diskswap :)
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21:41:10 <SpComb> netswap
21:41:11 <__ln__> TrueBrain: i think we are talking about running out of memory
21:41:12 <TrueBrain> otherwise, I wonder why you want to control the OOM behavoir ;)
21:41:13 <peter1138> i noticed that disk io really bogs things down these days
21:41:18 <Terkhen> good night
21:41:21 <peter1138> it's depressing :(
21:41:29 <TrueBrain> peter1138: get an SSD :P
21:41:49 * SpComb is about to order an Intel 320 120GB
21:41:55 <peter1138> not really
21:42:18 <peter1138> while my kernel is waiting for data, it should be doing other things!
21:42:24 <TrueBrain> it does :p
21:42:30 * Prof_Frink is about to order the Executor
21:42:35 <peter1138> it doesn't! it sits there with high io wait :S
21:42:49 <peter1138> i'm sure it's only been bad like this since SATA
21:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> i've witnessed 560% wait cycles at one time
21:43:07 <TrueBrain> peter1138: it always has been an issue :p
21:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> (of 6 cores)
21:43:30 <TrueBrain> but seriously, switching to a more modern scheduler at least fixes the non-responsiveness
21:43:34 <peter1138> TrueBrain, not to the extent that a single dd can cause the rest of the system to essentially lock up
21:43:38 <TrueBrain> doesn't fix the cause at all, of course
21:43:41 <TrueBrain> but at least you can ssh and stuff :p
21:43:59 <TrueBrain> peter1138: I did it on 80486, but that might just be me :D
21:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'll give it a few more minutes, then i kill the computer...
21:44:38 <TrueBrain> we use the scheduler on production shared web servers, because people tend to try to make deadlocks :P
21:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it can't be the intention that a "simple" OOM forces me to restart
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21:44:50 <TrueBrain> means that both we can still ssh to the box, and other users notice almost nothing
21:45:01 <TrueBrain> blame the OOM Killer
21:45:09 <TrueBrain> one of the more poor things a modern linux kernel does
21:45:14 <TrueBrain> it keeps killing the wrong fucking process :(
21:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... i've not really had the wrong process killed yet
21:45:57 <TrueBrain> if it was the right, then why are you still OOM? :D
21:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> when it finally got to actually kill a process, it was usually the one screwing up
21:46:49 <TrueBrain> anyway, good chance that it killed a process vital to your keyboard input :D I have seen that happening ...
21:46:52 <TrueBrain> ugh @ X11 :(
21:47:32 *** douknoukem has quit IRC
21:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> Wikipedia: "The Brain Fuck Scheduler (BFS) is not related to the programming language Brainfuck" :p
21:48:20 <TrueBrain> ghehe
21:48:37 <TrueBrain> and I am not sure about the name ... it was a confusing one .. I keep forgetting :P
21:49:23 <peter1138> it also won't hit main line :S
21:52:46 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: and the easiest solution always is: don't run OOM :D
21:52:49 <DarkSide> is a wiki administrator here ?
21:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> TrueBrain: can't always ensure that ;)
21:53:30 <TrueBrain> you fail then :D
21:53:33 <planetmaker> DarkSide: you might as well ask your real question
21:53:33 *** douknoukem has joined #openttd
21:54:07 <DarkSide> can we add a new Category in the wiki ? called [[Category:Signals_Image]]
21:54:25 <DarkSide> they only for grafics
21:55:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22897 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp news_type.h): -Change: More suitable default news settings instead of everything on 'full'.
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21:56:02 <frosch123> so, how can we add a bug which deletes the current news settings of every user from the config? :p
21:56:26 <TrueBrain> don't tempt me frosch123 :P
21:56:50 <DarkSide> move the news settings at /dev/null ;)
21:56:50 <frosch123> TrueBrain: the goal is to only delete the news settings
21:56:58 <frosch123> not the whole disk
21:57:02 <TrueBrain> frosch123: aawwwhhh
21:57:04 <TrueBrain> you sure?
21:57:34 <frosch123> i am sure you would
21:57:45 <Elukka> so, i haven't the slightest clue how to patch or compile (besides mucking about with buildottd which didn't seem to work) but i'd like a more recent version of openttd with cargodist
21:58:05 <Elukka> the wiki page says it's compiled nightly but the most recent ones are from june while there are patch files from this month
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21:58:47 <Pinkbeast> Isn't the current Chill's newer than June?
21:59:46 <Elukka> chill's?
21:59:49 <Elukka> oh
21:59:55 <Elukka> i need to check the dev forum more often
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22:01:36 <Elukka> signals on bridges and tunnels
22:01:38 <Elukka> mind, blown
22:01:52 <pjpe> they work kinda shitty
22:01:57 <planetmaker> DarkSide: why does it need a separate category for signal images?
22:02:00 <pjpe> sometimes they bug out
22:02:17 *** douknoukem has quit IRC
22:02:34 <Pinkbeast> Yeah, I gave up on that when I got two trains stuck in a tunnel for no readily apparent reason.
22:02:54 <pjpe> and i can't figure out what the point of the speed limit signals are
22:02:57 <DarkSide> 4 shorter image searching and using
22:02:59 <pjpe> it doesn't seem to affect pathfinding
22:03:04 <sortkrudt> May be a stupid question, but I have this problem with a train going over a junction after the pre-signal even tho an exit-signal is read, and its blocking the whoel junction. is this a bug?
22:03:21 <Pinkbeast> sort> Got a screenshot?
22:03:47 <sortkrudt> yes. u got any site where I can easy upload & post?
22:03:58 <Yexo> planetmaker: failure is due to german language file
22:04:14 <Yexo> {P t en} {NUM} should be {P 0 t en} {NUM} I think
22:04:19 <planetmaker> o_O
22:04:21 <Elukka> what's up with the cargodist binaries not being automatically compiled as per the wiki anyhow?
22:04:30 *** Mucht has quit IRC
22:04:37 * Eddi|zuHause2 is sure TrueBrain is a secret descendant of the BOFH :p
22:04:48 <Yexo> Elukka: I don't know, but the wiki is in no way leading information
22:04:53 <planetmaker> thanks, Yexo. Will fix that immediately. I didn't yet notice
22:04:59 <Yexo> it might be correct, it might be outdated, it might be wrong for a few years
22:05:04 <Elukka> right
22:05:13 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: why?
22:05:16 <Yexo> planetmaker: me neither, but the log in .cf was helpful :)
22:05:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> TrueBrain: do i _really_ have to give proof? :p
22:05:52 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: I was talking about "secret"
22:06:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> oh.
22:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> right.
22:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> :p
22:06:07 <TrueBrain> :D
22:06:11 <TrueBrain> you felt for thatone :D
22:06:15 <TrueBrain> can't believe you did ... :P
22:06:16 <sortkrudt> Pinkbeast:,_27._Mar_2046.jpg
22:06:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway, i'm gonna kill my computer now...
22:06:39 <Elukka> some day i hope cargo destinations will make it to trunk
22:06:43 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: good luck
22:06:55 <TrueBrain> Elukka: which version? :D
22:06:58 <planetmaker> should be fixed now
22:07:08 <Pinkbeast> png is enormously superior to jpg for this job, but... where's the problematic junction/train?
22:07:13 <TrueBrain> Yexo / planetmaker: how did it pass WT3.0?
22:07:16 <Elukka> any version that's decent :P
22:07:24 <DarkSide> (planetmaker): 4 shorter image searching and using
22:07:30 <Yexo> TrueBrain: no clue how WT3.0 validates
22:07:34 <Pinkbeast> Oh, the one that's in the junction before "Huston"?
22:07:42 <TrueBrain> Yexo: correctly, I hoped :P
22:07:57 <planetmaker> Elukka: the automatic compilation might have stopped / be broken when we moved to a new compile farm
22:08:02 <pjpe> once a train enters that block of signals
22:08:06 <pjpe> in between the entrance and exit signals
22:08:11 <pjpe> all of the signals will turn red
22:08:11 <TrueBrain> guess some things changed in strgen that WT3.0 doesn't know about :P
22:08:13 <sortkrudt> Pinkbeast. Yes. I thought the pre-signal and exit would fix this
22:08:15 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you should know ;-)
22:08:16 <pjpe> you should change them all to path signals
22:08:19 <Pinkbeast> The trains with invisible wagons do make things a tad more confusing
22:08:26 <Elukka> that would explain it
22:08:27 <Yexo> TrueBrain: this didn't change recently at all
22:08:38 <Elukka> would be nice if it got unbrokened eventually :P
22:08:41 <sortkrudt> pjpe: but i had the same problem with path signals enter and exit.
22:08:46 <Pinkbeast> Path signals would certainly improve it, but that train in the block shouldn't be there for all that
22:08:52 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
22:08:52 <planetmaker> indeed it's just the old plural pragma used
22:08:55 <TrueBrain> Yexo: 'recent' as in last year, I remember Rub talking about it a long time ago :p
22:08:58 <planetmaker> twice in a single string
22:08:59 <pjpe> oh was that the problem
22:09:03 <planetmaker> that's older than a year
22:09:05 <sortkrudt> No, i know, and its way to annoying, cause its waiting for a train with are waiting for stuff he cant get.
22:09:11 <Pinkbeast> With path signals you wouldn't have the signals immediately before the platforms at all.
22:09:21 <sortkrudt> pjpe, yea. well. i'm newb. dont be suprised :)
22:09:45 <sortkrudt> it looks like its a timing problem.
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22:10:14 <Pinkbeast> Ahhh. You have two-way signals there.
22:10:16 <Elukka> path signals are a beautiful gift from god
22:10:42 <sortkrudt> When path signals were made God had his best work day.
22:10:52 <sortkrudt> Pinkbeast, is that relevant? :)
22:10:57 <sortkrudt> I don't understand why.
22:11:36 <Elukka> path signals and cargo destinations (because of the way they revolutionize passengers) are two things i can't play without anymore
22:11:48 <Pinkbeast> Well, it's ages since I've used non-path signals, but I think one of the signals into the block has turned green and let that train in because one of the signals facing the other way was green because the waiting area closest to us is free.
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22:13:03 <Pinkbeast> Do trains ever travel back the other way? Surely not.
22:13:09 <sortkrudt> No.
22:13:18 <Pinkbeast> So I would make those one-way and see what happens.
22:13:24 <sortkrudt> never happened.
22:13:29 <sortkrudt> Ok.
22:13:47 <Pinkbeast> ... well, actually I would replace all the two-ways with path signals and remove the signals closest to the platforms altogether, but failing that...
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22:14:32 <sortkrudt> "actually i would blow the whole thing and re-make it.."
22:15:14 <Pinkbeast> Depends how much disruption you fancy in your network.
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22:16:03 <Elukka> unrelated, but speaking of track design in general... i've found that on through stations and especially terminus stations, if there are 4 or more tracks on your line it's vastly better to alternate the directions of each track
22:16:19 <Elukka> as in, not have left hand or right hand traffic
22:16:35 <Elukka> line goes like
22:16:36 <Elukka> ---->
22:16:41 <Elukka> <----
22:16:45 <Elukka> ----->
22:16:50 <Pinkbeast> Yes, you want LRLR not LLRR.
22:16:54 *** vb has joined #openttd
22:16:56 <Elukka> yes that's a much less cumbersome way to put it
22:17:00 <vb> anyone online?
22:17:03 <Elukka> took me ages to realize
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22:17:09 <planetmaker> right... I guess I don't find info on how to create such category
22:17:12 <SpComb> yeah, I discovered that as well
22:17:14 <vb> i downlodead the firs 070 beta 1 files
22:17:16 <vb> where to put them?
22:17:23 <SpComb> alternating tracks at stations (both through and terminus) are awesome
22:17:44 <Elukka> well, took me as long as it took for my networks to grow to such a point that the LLRR arrangement became my main bottleneck
22:17:46 <SpComb> hard part is building the track infrastructure where you join all those together, mind :)
22:18:01 <Ammler> vb: ~/.openttd/data
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22:18:26 <SpComb>
22:18:52 <sortkrudt> So weird. The train went into the junction and went straigth to the one which -exit-signal- said red, and blocked the whole junction
22:19:08 <SpComb> two terminii, one through station, and two bypasses for above :p
22:19:12 <Elukka> i realized the main problem was that trains on a terminus would enter on one side of the stations, then have to cross most of the tracks to get to the other side when they leave, blocking traffic
22:19:35 <SpComb> with a five-track station and alternating lines, you can have four trains simultaneously exiting/entering the station
22:19:43 <vb> ammler
22:19:45 <Elukka> yeah
22:19:45 <vb> not working
22:19:47 <SpComb> and you only need one tile of track crossings on the station
22:20:05 <SpComb> -> optimal
22:20:55 <Ammler> vb: you need to unzip it
22:21:17 <vb> oh
22:21:40 <Pinkbeast> sortkrudt> Having made the suggested changes?
22:21:44 <Ammler> only tar archives are possible
22:21:55 *** Guest9025 has quit IRC
22:22:15 <Ammler> but the zip should have a folder, you can keep that
22:22:31 <vb> it seems i need a nightly openttd
22:22:33 <Elukka> i used this junction on a LRLR type line
22:22:34 <Elukka>
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22:22:40 <Elukka> it works, but an obvious flaw is the length of the bridges
22:22:50 <Ammler> vb: the newgrf should tell you that
22:23:03 <Ammler> so does the release thread...
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22:23:46 <vb> yay, rivers
22:23:49 <Pinkbeast> Are these intentionally all entry pre-signals?
22:23:57 <Elukka> no they're one way path signals
22:24:21 <Pinkbeast> Oh, with unconventional graphics?
22:24:29 <SpComb> my junctions are all 100% certified organically-grown
22:24:43 <vb> what is the best trainset for firs 0.7.0?
22:24:51 <Elukka> huh. i only just realized the entry presignal and one way path signal look almost identical
22:24:56 <Elukka> maybe? i dunno what graphics i'm using there :D
22:25:05 <Ammler> vb: every set with support for ECS should do
22:25:13 <Pinkbeast> You could reduce the bridge lengths by not having them cross the lines they're about to merge with...
22:25:55 <Ammler> if you want to use default, you need ogfx+trains
22:26:07 <SpComb> yeah, keep the bridging track straight and bend the crossing track
22:26:22 <sortkrudt> lemme see.. to sec
22:26:25 <Elukka> hm true
22:26:25 <SpComb> certifyable suboptimal
22:26:47 <Elukka> dunno why i did it that way
22:27:12 <Elukka> and i wish you could still commit the terrible crime of changing newgrfs in a running game because now that save will forever have bugged bridge graphics because i forgot a parameter :(
22:27:27 <Pinkbeast> You can, secretly
22:27:46 <sortkrudt> Pinkbeast. Yes. I should do that aswell. it would be more effective. even tho my system have many weak spots now. whole system have halted another spot aswell
22:27:54 <sortkrudt> I've lost 75% of all earning this year
22:27:55 <Elukka> what's the super secret way
22:27:56 <sortkrudt> :s
22:28:00 <Elukka> i won't complain when it breaks my game, promise
22:28:16 <Ammler> it is not secret, just set the scenario_developer flag
22:28:19 <Pinkbeast>
22:28:27 <Elukka> hm. thought i did that
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22:28:41 *** ChanServ changes topic to "1.1.2, 1.1.3-RC1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only"
22:28:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o SmatZ
22:29:16 <Pinkbeast> I change newgrfs all the time, never had a problem. As long as you don't do something daft like removing vehicles you're using, it generally seems to be OK
22:29:37 <Pinkbeast> sortkrudt> Why do you need such a humunguous capacity station, anyway, if I can ask?
22:29:41 <SpComb> haet haet
22:29:57 <Elukka> i've used it to either fix graphics hickups and once or twice add the db set ecs compatibility grf which surprisingly worked
22:30:02 * SpComb did it when starting a game on the original TTDX West Country scenario
22:30:07 <Elukka> (works for uk renewal industries too which is pretty nice)
22:30:07 <Alien> Hi, a gameplay question; if i have a "service when needed" order in a trains list will this train autoservice?
22:30:11 <Pinkbeast> ... yeah, whoever gets the bug reports you generate because you take my advice isn't going to be too pleased
22:30:15 <Pinkbeast> Alien> No.
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22:30:30 <sortkrudt> Pinkbeast: Oh, well. I thought it would be fun to see how much trains I can go to one station. I'm delivering oil, fruit and corn and getting food and goods. thats's all.
22:30:39 <Alien> thx i will try it
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22:31:26 <sortkrudt> I had 900 tonnes of food production, and many tones on goods. Just wanted to see what max number I was able to get
22:31:36 <Pinkbeast> sortkrudt> I would start then by using waypoints to route the loading trains separately to the unloading trains, so that unloading trains cannot be blocked by trains waiting for cargo
22:31:47 <Elukka> but hey, suppose i want my game running cargodist and be modern enough to be compatible with FIRS and opengfx+ terrain
22:31:54 <Elukka> what's my least painless shot of doing it
22:32:00 <Elukka> the ideal thing would be finding a binary somewhere!
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22:32:15 <Pinkbeast> And then split the various kind of loading train, so each cargo has at least one dedicated platform
22:32:33 <Elukka> considering the compile farm hasn't been compiling cargodist for month
22:32:35 <Elukka> months*
22:32:46 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> What's wrong with Chill's?
22:32:49 <sortkrudt> I see. Yea. Splitting into three or four junction pre-station would be a clever idea aswell.
22:32:58 <sortkrudt> instead of twelve-railed junction
22:33:09 <Elukka> ...nothing's wrong with chills, i forgot about it and that chill's thread tab i had open
22:33:10 <Elukka> derp
22:33:23 <Ammler> Elukka: there should be a binary flying around on forums
22:33:32 <Pinkbeast> That monstrous train waiting area is papering over the cracks - you can't get trains loaded/unloaded and out of the existing platforms fast enough
22:33:58 <sortkrudt> yes.
22:34:01 <Pinkbeast> And until you can, adding more trains and more waiting area does nothing for throughput
22:34:03 <sortkrudt> I knowz. it sux
22:34:12 <sortkrudt> also true.
22:34:43 <Pinkbeast> Short of increasing maximum station size, though, you are a bit stuck
22:35:28 <Pinkbeast> ... wait, do you have any 5-tile trains?
22:35:30 <sortkrudt> when I did 4 junctions, and signals between them at ml, then it went more smooth
22:35:43 <sortkrudt> no. 4cargo+train(2).
22:36:11 <Pinkbeast> Because if you've only got those 3-tile trains, you could have two complete rows of platforms. Bring trains in up the middle and send them out both sides.
22:36:51 <sortkrudt> well. those both lines would eventually go on the ml, then i would get bottle-neck some other place
22:37:27 <Pinkbeast> Perhaps once you get the signals sorted here, anyway, throughput will increase.
22:37:56 <sortkrudt> yea. hope so. thx for help.
22:40:31 <Elukka> yay binaries \o/
22:44:15 <Elukka> haha 32k x 32k square maps
22:47:34 <sortkrudt> atleast u have space
22:48:28 <Pinkbeast> I ain't criticising the decision not to try and second-guess how big a map anyone might need, but... that's probably a bigger map than anyone needs.
22:49:11 <Elukka> i like to play on 2048x2048 maps because it never feels cramped
22:49:21 <Elukka> and so far it never has and i don't feel the need to go bigger
22:50:18 <Elukka>
22:50:25 <Elukka> anyone happen to know where those trees are from?
22:50:45 <Ammler> opengfx?
22:50:57 <Ammler> you use another base set?
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22:51:35 <planetmaker> default opengfx
22:51:38 <Elukka> huh.
22:51:43 <Elukka> guess i'm using some archaic version
22:51:45 <Ammler> maabe you need to update
22:51:50 <Elukka> working on it!
22:52:48 <Elukka> ooh sexy trees
22:52:50 <Pinkbeast> Elukka> you're not just using the old TTD graphics?
22:52:58 <Elukka> nah, old opengfx
22:53:42 <Ammler> Pinkbeast: there aren't old ttd graphics
22:53:55 <Ammler> there is just one version afaik
22:54:12 <Pinkbeast> Ammler> You have misunderstood the sense of "old"
22:54:18 <Ammler> :-)
22:55:36 <Elukka> aw. opengfx+ terrain makes chill's crash
22:56:56 <planetmaker> yes, it's too new newgrf, probably
22:57:02 <planetmaker> but it shouldn't crash it
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22:57:41 <Elukka> :(
22:58:11 <Ammler> there is ogfx+terrain?
22:58:18 <planetmaker> +landscape ;-)
22:58:23 <Elukka>
22:58:24 <Elukka> yeah, that
22:58:38 <Elukka> okay.. i hope firs at least works
22:59:28 <Ammler> what version does chillpp report?
22:59:33 <planetmaker> it has similiar requirements, Elukka
22:59:38 <planetmaker> wrt openttd version
22:59:39 <Elukka> argh, it doesn't
23:00:28 <Elukka> chill's says revision 22553
23:00:35 <Elukka> this is whatever was the newest binary in the thread
23:00:46 <planetmaker> which is smaller than 22780 ;-)
23:00:49 <Elukka> true
23:01:05 <Elukka> i'd just like to get FIRS and preferably opengfx+ landscape in a cargodist game
23:01:19 <planetmaker> foobar updated yacd
23:01:36 <planetmaker> somewhere in the forums. And posted a windoze binary
23:02:31 <Elukka> alternative to cargodist?
23:02:37 <Ammler> no
23:02:43 <Ammler> update of yacd
23:03:00 <Ammler> @man yacd
23:04:11 <Elukka> will it make my passengers take a bus to the train that goes to the airport without me fudging with transfer orders because if yes that's what i want
23:04:33 <Yexo> yes
23:04:36 <Elukka> yay
23:04:40 <Ammler> just try it, it is a bit different
23:05:08 <Elukka> the compiled binaries for yacd also end in june... gonna dig round the thread for newer ones
23:05:09 <Yexo> main difference between yacd and cargodist is that in yacd the passengers chose a destination themselves and you have to accomodate them. In cargodist the passengers will only go where they can go and as such adjust to your network
23:05:27 *** Neon has quit IRC
23:06:01 <Elukka> so in effect, in yacd you have less demand for your services if you have less destinations?
23:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:07:02 <Elukka> cool, always wanted that
23:08:18 <Ammler> you just got a dummy slave of the game
23:09:24 <Elukka> well, i can't find a recent binary of yacd either
23:09:27 <Ammler> it transfers the game from strategy to simulation
23:09:55 <Ammler> Elukka: search for foobar
23:09:56 <Yexo> Elukka:
23:10:18 <Elukka> hey, thanks
23:10:58 <Ammler> the best feature of yacd is the disable setting :-)
23:11:33 <Elukka> ha
23:11:38 <Elukka> it sounds pretty great to me
23:11:42 <Elukka> yacd, not the disable setting
23:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm slightly in preferrence of cargodist-style destinations
23:12:11 <Ammler> you are just a lazy guy :-P
23:12:34 <Elukka> the strategy in the game isn't about making money anyhow since that's so easy, it's about providing towns and industries the services they need
23:12:35 <Elukka> to me anyway
23:12:54 <Elukka> yacd seems like it makes providing those services more interesting
23:13:04 <Ammler> but you just need to do the boring stuff...
23:13:11 <Elukka> what boring stuff?
23:13:21 <Ammler> just build tracks
23:13:37 <Elukka> isn't that what ttd is about :p
23:13:41 <Ammler> the "routing" happens automatically
23:13:55 <Ammler> which is fun in the usual gameplay
23:14:42 <Elukka> routing vehicles doesn't happen automatically though, and destinations makes it all the more vital
23:14:47 <Ammler> Elukka: yeah it is fun for some, it isn't for others, that is why it is good, it has a disable option :-)
23:14:50 <Elukka> because a bottleneck in the network will murder profits
23:14:52 <Elukka> heh
23:14:53 <planetmaker> good night
23:15:55 <Ammler> gute nacht planetmaker
23:16:18 <Elukka> um. playing on a large map doesn't mean people from Town A will want to go to every single town on the map in equal numbers, so that you'll end up with a miniscule amount of passengers on larger maps, does it?
23:17:37 <Pinkbeast> YACD does its best not to drop you in that hole, yes.
23:17:50 <Elukka> that's nice of it
23:18:17 <Ammler> yes, but you don't need cargod{e|i}st for that, good players can do that without
23:18:27 <Elukka> ah, finally, a thing that works!
23:18:29 <Elukka> so pretty
23:18:45 <Elukka> ammler, without it you can simply dump all your passengers wherever you like :P
23:19:24 <Ammler> not if you want your trains to be full both ways
23:20:21 <Elukka> question, are there any good vehicle sets that work with FIRS?
23:20:35 <Elukka> db set seems to have support for it but the grf is much older than recent FIRS versions
23:20:42 <Ammler> any set with support for ECS
23:20:56 <Ammler> or the ogfx+ sets
23:21:19 <Elukka> oh, i thought i had read something about FIRS needing more particular support than ECS
23:21:25 <Ammler> dbset has no graphical support
23:22:31 <Elukka> as in it works but you won't see your trains carry the proper cargo visually?
23:22:42 <Ammler> yep
23:23:23 <Ammler> the "ECS" sets do that mostly and the ogfx+ sets do that even more
23:24:02 <Ammler> you can use multiple sets
23:24:10 <Elukka> i've been alternating between dbset, nars2 and ukrs
23:24:16 <Ammler> the more the better
23:24:32 <Ammler> use them all :-)
23:24:56 <Elukka> but german trains alongside american ones is just.. wrong!
23:25:41 <Elukka> as an aside i love the attention to detail in dbset
23:25:42 <Pinkbeast> I tend to use ukrs2 plus 2cc to fill in the gaps
23:25:47 <Ammler> yeah, as said, for some, openttd is simulation, for some it is strategy, you are obviously the simulation guy :-P
23:26:12 <Pinkbeast> I think defining being allowed to send any cargo anywhere as "strategy" is tenuous at best
23:26:21 <Elukka> different color schemes according to period and locomotive, first class and diner cars...
23:27:20 <Elukka> sometimes i feel the urge to draw some sprites, as i feel i could summon up the artistic skill to do it but there's no way i could code anything :D
23:27:56 <Ammler> then draw your things and post to tt-forums
23:27:57 <sortkrudt> lulz. are you a nationalist in-game Elukka!?!?!
23:28:08 <Ammler> if someone likes it, he might offer to help with code
23:28:37 <Elukka> might just see if someone's looking for sprites and tryign to make some too
23:28:56 <Elukka> sort, hah
23:29:26 <Elukka> if i'm running german trains i'll have german towns and money, if i'm running american trains i'll have american towns and money :P
23:29:42 <Ammler> Elukka: maybe cets is searching for artsts
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23:36:50 <Elukka> hm. long vehicles and fish seem to be okay with firs
23:36:56 <Elukka> since they just transport everything
23:37:05 <Elukka> trucks transporting gear ratios! :P
23:45:55 <Elukka> ...disabling regearing in nars apparently means disabling all locomotives capable of regearing
23:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's a bug
23:52:37 <Elukka> suddenly, 3 am
23:52:45 <Elukka> sleeptime i think
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