IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-02
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06:09:56 <__ln__> buenos días señores pasajeros
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06:26:06 <planetmaker> moin
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07:02:10 <dihedral> greetings
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07:39:19 <BartHoning> If I use nmlc to create my own grf, all goes well. Untill I try to create a helicopter: Unknown identifier 'AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL'. Wiki tells:
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07:44:33 <BartHoning> has anyone tried creating a helicopter? setting just 'is_helicopter' to 'AIRCRAFT_TYPE_HELICOPTER does not work: it still seems to be a plane..
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07:46:17 <BartHoning> and as soon as I set 'is_large' to AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL, nmlc complains about not knowing AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL.... ?
07:49:54 <planetmaker> it is ...PORT_...
07:50:33 <planetmaker> hm...
07:50:34 <planetmaker> no
07:50:59 <planetmaker> do you have the code?
07:51:18 <BartHoning> is_helicopter: AIRCRAFT_TYPE_HELICOPTER;
07:51:18 <BartHoning> is_large: AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL;
07:51:20 <planetmaker> i.e. a file I could try compile to a grf?
07:51:34 <BartHoning> does not compile Unknown identifier 'AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL'
07:52:17 <BartHoning> erm...
07:52:33 <planetmaker> and which NML version do you use?
07:53:07 <BartHoning> r1653 (pil 1.1.7, ply 3.4)
07:53:42 <BartHoning> I know the grf is basically allright, it flies perfectly as a plane
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08:00:54 <planetmaker> so... do you now expect me to write my own plane or do you make it easy for me to test and give me yours?
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08:06:55 <BartHoning>
08:07:54 <BartHoning> There is a zip with the example I followed from the wiki in it. Graphics are not done at all etc.
08:10:38 <BartHoning> I adjusted it, to create a plane, that worked fine (flying truck, lol) but since I am trying to create a zep, I thought it would be better to see it as a helicopter.
08:10:42 <planetmaker> AIRCRAFT_size_SMALL instead of _type_
08:11:52 <BartHoning> ah, ok, ill try that..
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08:15:18 <planetmaker> in caps, though
08:17:55 <BartHoning> Yes, it does compile allright, but the new version still behaves like a normal airplane?
08:18:07 <BartHoning> and not like a helicopter? Hmmm..
08:18:28 <planetmaker> hm... still as plane
08:19:38 <planetmaker> right. It's an NML bug. Constants for is_helicopter are swapped
08:19:54 <planetmaker> for now use 0 as property value
08:20:02 <peter1138> heh
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08:23:19 <planetmaker> if you use NML from a repository, it's fixed now, BartHoning
08:24:01 <planetmaker> alternatively, update NML in about 8 hours
08:25:27 <BartHoning> it works fine as a helicopter now :)
08:26:06 <BartHoning> is there any way to remove the spinning-rotor effect? (since I am trying to create a blimp)
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08:37:33 <planetmaker> I don't find anything obvious... though there surely is
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08:46:38 <Terkhen> good morning
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09:13:43 <TheHog> Terkhen, planetmaker: could you please take a look at my 2-feeder patch again?
09:14:18 <TheHog> I hope I can convince you both to accept and commit the patch.. Yexo's standpoint is clear
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09:15:40 <TheHog> the latest patch only kicks in if the vehicle is 'transfering && loading' at a station.. the config which currently isn't used because of the current 2-way feeding 'bug'
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09:28:57 <Terkhen> I don't get the code, I never checked that part in detail
09:29:26 <Terkhen> what does it do? it uses the vehicle order list to decide if cargo can be picked or not?
09:30:48 <TheHog> indeed
09:31:29 <TheHog> the cargo itselves decided if it is allowed to be loaded on the vehicle based uppon the order list of the vehicle
09:31:44 <TheHog> only if the vehicle is transfering and loading at the current station
09:32:33 <TheHog> if the cargo was just loaded at a station from the order list, or it original from such station,.. then it is not loaded
09:34:11 <TheHog> Yexo's standpoint is that it does not fix all situations and that is true, however it fixes most of all feeding cases so I would like to see it committed
09:34:20 <TheHog> to fix it all we need cargodst
09:35:16 <planetmaker> IMHO Yexo's argument is quite valid. Fixing it for some but not for all cases will only make solutions like cargod*st more difficult
09:35:31 <Terkhen> yes, I said that it would conflict with future destination patches which also fix the issue
09:35:42 <planetmaker> ok, maybe you did :-)
09:35:43 <Terkhen> you might want to ask michi_cc or fonsinchen about this
09:36:24 <TheHog> why them?
09:36:37 <planetmaker> they write the cargod*st patches
09:36:38 <Terkhen> michi_cc develops YACD, fonsinchen develops cargodist
09:36:48 <TheHog> k
09:37:20 <TheHog> but cargodist is so much different than the original game
09:37:54 <TheHog> this patch is only a fix for a often reported bug
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09:38:24 <TheHog> someone playing with cargodist will need to learn how to play it all over again
09:38:42 <planetmaker> it would just move the bug reports to the left-out edge cases
09:40:45 <TheHog> how far is cargodist from finished?
09:41:04 <Terkhen> it is possible that the code of a future destination code committed to trunk can be used to fix this issue in normal games too, but the commit of your code means that any future destination patch must either remove the code, work around it or use it even if it is not ideal
09:42:01 <Terkhen> or "do not commit something that will be changed or removed in the future"
09:43:45 <TheHog> ok.. then hopefully fonsinchen has time to talk with me about this
09:43:48 <TheHog> or michi_cc
09:44:02 <TheHog> maybe we can merge both with my patch so they don't conflict
09:47:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, either of these patches have the ability to disable the destinations, so the transfer problem would still exist then
09:48:29 <TheHog> then my patch would help in that case also I think..
09:49:03 <TheHog> let me study the yacd and cargodst code tonight and I hope I can contact michi_cc and fonsinchen soon
09:49:28 <Terkhen> in that case... do we have two separate methods or do we try to adapt the code of the destination patch to the "no destination" case?
09:51:35 <TheHog> I think we should adapt the code..
09:52:05 <TheHog> it's not that complex so I guess it is easily merged with the cargdst and yacd code in the 'no destination' case
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10:16:36 <planetmaker> which window has a horizontal scrollbar?
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10:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the depot?
10:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the train list?
10:38:23 <peter1138> 1138 o'clock!
10:38:53 <SpComb> so it is
10:38:59 <SpComb> you have your clock right for once
10:39:32 <SpComb> wait what, no, it's 1338 o'clock, nevermind
10:39:35 <SpComb> must leave for lunch -->
10:44:49 <peter1138> you smell
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12:24:07 <krinn> hi all
12:24:23 <krinn> i have a "problem" with a bridge
12:25:20 <krinn> if the owner is a companyID and the company is dead, owner==-1 but still altering the bridge with AIBuild.BuildBridge return a ERR_OWNED_BY_ANOTHER_COMPANY
12:25:37 <krinn> while a town bridge also return own==-1 but it work on this one
12:26:08 <krinn> it's also strange because when company is dead && bridge.owner==-1 i cannot change the bridge but the game allow me to destroy the bridge
12:26:29 <krinn> i would have expect: when ==-1 you can destroy or rebuild over it
12:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably a bug... somewhere checking OWNER_TOWN and OWNER_NONE is inconsistent
12:28:07 <krinn> kinda weird as it looks like for openttd the companyID is now dead and it's ok to destroy it, but when trying to rebuild it, openttd remind the old companyID is the owner and refuse
12:40:38 <krinn> i found the bad one:
12:41:01 <krinn> static bool BuildBridge(AIVehicle::VehicleType vehicle_type, BridgeID bridge_id, TileIndex start, TileIndex end);
12:41:01 <krinn> -> * @exception AIError::ERR_OWNED_BY_ANOTHER_COMPANY
12:41:12 <krinn> this one fail
12:41:23 <Yexo> you can overbuild bridges if the owner is either your own company or a town.
12:41:38 <Yexo> note that OWNER_TOWN is different from OWNER_NONE
12:41:44 <krinn> but not if noone own it ?
12:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> try this:
12:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, but it's inconsistent
12:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: if you can remove it and build a new bridge, you should be able to convert one as well
12:42:45 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: I completely agree with you that the current behavior is buggy
12:43:01 <Yexo> your patch looks good at first sight, just haven't checked it enough
12:43:11 <krinn> it's just i have no way to see that bridge is own by someone, as AITile.GetOwner return -1 for both case (town/dead company)
12:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe this is better:
12:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (i hope that it does what i think it does, i haven't tested it either
12:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> )
12:45:05 <krinn> what are value for OWNER_TOWN & OWNER_NONE ?
12:45:21 <krinn> because as-is your patch might attrib the new bridge to me, while for now
12:45:37 <krinn> if the bridge is to a town, he will be upgrade but still the town will own it
12:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that would still be the case
12:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> src/company_type.h: OWNER_TOWN = 0x0F, ///< A town owns the tile, or a town is expanding
12:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> src/company_type.h: OWNER_NONE = 0x10, ///< The tile has no ownership
12:47:23 <krinn> looks even more logic so: i upgrade a bridge own by noone, so the result will be mine
12:47:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:47:55 <krinn> lol can't believe how fast you fix that one Eddi|zuHause :)
12:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well it _is_ still untested...
12:48:43 <krinn> maybe, but the change appears really clear
12:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if you can't express a feature in <10 lines, it might not be the right way to do it :)
12:50:21 <krinn> :)
12:53:47 <krinn> it's funny i never saw it, but even humans are affect so :)
12:54:09 <krinn> never saw it while playing (i must use too much the buldozer)
12:54:43 <Yexo> krinn / eddi: if nobody does it before me I'll properly test and commit that fix tonight
12:54:58 <Yexo> right now I'm too busy with the new codecup competition
12:55:18 <krinn> test is easy, run an ai let it build a road bridge, restart the ai and as human try to rebuild a bridge over it
12:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i am too busy preparing for my mother's birthday, so i probably won't test it...
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13:03:37 <krinn> i'm building openttd but i have 1.1.1 source only, will answer if it work for that version (as it should)
13:13:06 <krinn> :P cannot build it, i should use the real source, these one are alter by the gentoo installer
13:13:27 <krinn> sorry can't test so
13:14:01 <Ammler> krinn: use source with vcs
13:25:44 <krinn> ok it work with 1.1.2 (i donwload the 1.1.2 source)
13:26:03 <krinn> i've test it doesn't work before reloading the ai (while the ai still own it & is a valid company)
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13:26:53 <krinn> i'm also now the new owner of the bridge
13:26:56 <krinn> all fine Eddi|zuHause :)
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13:39:42 <Belugas> hihi
13:39:53 <krinn> hi Belugas
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13:40:23 <Belugas> sir krinn :)
13:41:19 <krinn> sir Belugas :)
13:50:24 <krinn> openttd auto remove 25 to force company goes bankrupt at start or i must dig out where i lost that money ?
13:50:36 <krinn> (i mean with loan set to 0)
13:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, there's a fixed amount of money you lose anyway
13:51:06 <krinn> overtime or just at start ?
13:51:14 <Yexo> every year
13:52:02 <krinn> rats traders!
13:52:33 <Yexo> loan and bonuses for the management :p
13:52:44 <krinn> :D
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15:12:22 <krinn> when creating a wagon in a depot, first one i get a valid vehicleID for it, but next ones, it fail for a reason i don't get, the wagons are create, just the AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle answer then false, got a clue?
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15:42:56 <krinn> there something really wrong with that : if (!AIObject::DoCommand(depot, engine_id, 0, ::GetCmdBuildVeh(type), NULL, &AIInstance::DoCommandReturnVehicleID)) return VEHICLE_INVALID;
15:43:51 <krinn> doc says to check the return value againt AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle, for first one it work, but others ones it fail, they get attach to the first one and i suppose the return value is then the uint of the wagon and not the vehicleID
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15:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, that one is outside my area of expertise
15:53:03 <krinn> hard to handle just to build some wagons :)
15:54:18 <Yexo> krinn: if you build a wagon two things can happen:
15:54:55 <Yexo> 1) There is only a single engine (possible with wagons attached) in the depot, your new wagon will be automatically attached to this engine. The returned VehicleID is invalid for your AI
15:55:28 <Yexo> 2) There are either no or multiple engines. Your new wagon will be in a new chain. The returned VehicleID is valid
15:55:51 <krinn> well, what i see here is
15:56:04 <krinn> 1) i have train with 1 wagon but new wagons aren't attach to it
15:56:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22868 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Change: Resize the company league window according to the company icon's size
15:56:28 <Yexo> are you using any newgrfs? They might block attaching new wagons
15:56:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the what window?
15:56:37 <krinn> 2) now that a new wagon is there, the AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle fail because i no more get a vehicleID but i think the wagon number
15:56:47 <Yexo> in that case you could end up in situation 2), in that case you should get a valid VehicleID as return value
15:56:55 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: current ranking
15:56:59 <krinn> i do use them yexo, but i test my wagon and all is fine for that
15:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> guess i have not looked at that in ages...
15:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's kinda boring when there is only one company
15:57:41 <Yexo> krinn: I don't understand your actual problem then
15:58:04 <krinn> that next wagon create report failure because i get an invalid vehicleID
15:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you have a misconception about what the return value means
15:59:05 <krinn> first one == validVehicleID next ones = invalidVehicleID (but i have some id return that isn't the value of an invalid vehicle ID, so i suppose some internal id for the wagon)
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15:59:27 <andythenorth> George: hi hi
15:59:33 <Yexo> the value you get is a VehicleID as used internally by the game
15:59:43 <Yexo> however AIs are restricted in which IDs are valid for them
15:59:51 <Yexo> only the ID of the first part of a train is considered valid for AIs
16:00:11 <Yexo> but next ones are attached to your first one, right?
16:00:18 <krinn> so this is bad : The VehicleID of the new vehicle, or an invalid VehicleID when it failed. Check the return value using IsValidVehicle
16:00:22 <Yexo> if so, you can use the VehicleID of the first part to access the others
16:01:08 <Yexo> yes, that's bad
16:01:20 <andythenorth> @seen George
16:01:20 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: George was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 8 hours, 28 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <George> I thought action 7 should be used :(
16:02:23 <krinn> hmmm, the good check is check if return ID == VEHICLE_INVALID
16:02:27 <krinn> if not, it's valid
16:05:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22869 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Codechange: Use the same constant to set the minimum height of all widgets in the windows title bar
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16:05:47 <krinn> i see AIVehicle::VEHICLE_INVALID is define, will check it to see
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16:12:14 <George> andythenorth> @seen George. Yes?
16:12:40 <andythenorth> for the mine
16:12:48 <andythenorth> I already have front loader / excavator
16:12:53 <andythenorth> not sure if they are what you need
16:12:59 <andythenorth> they are in ISR stations
16:13:05 <George> In operating?
16:13:21 <andythenorth> I'll make a screenshot
16:13:51 <George> I asked about one that is in operation
16:13:59 <andythenorth> the front loader is animated in ISR
16:14:49 <George> it has / direction and faced to player AFAIR
16:15:45 <andythenorth> yes
16:15:57 <krinn> quite hard as i don't know the vehicleID the wagon is then attach to
16:16:11 <andythenorth> there is also \ direction
16:16:12 <George> And I need something to operate the rock
16:16:18 <andythenorth> hmm
16:16:36 <George> That mean it has to be faced FROM the player
16:17:45 <andythenorth> George:
16:17:49 <andythenorth> this is a log loader
16:17:55 <andythenorth> it needs forks swapping to bucket
16:17:59 <andythenorth> it's not animated
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16:18:14 <Yexo> krinn: what would you think about a change to OpenTTD so newly build rail wagons are never attached to anything?
16:18:30 <Yexo> that means you'll always get a valid VehicleID as return value
16:18:47 <krinn> it would really help
16:18:50 <andythenorth> George: that one *is* layered psd with each part on a layer
16:18:54 <krinn> or gave us the internal wagon id
16:18:55 <andythenorth> I'll send you psd
16:19:29 <Yexo> I'd rather not do that, since that will complicate the rest of the API
16:19:42 <krinn> but it's hard to solve as-is right now
16:19:51 <krinn> if i want create 1 wagon, refit it
16:20:01 <krinn> how can i know where is my wagon ?
16:20:11 <George> andythenorth: this is a log loader. It does not look like a mine excavator :( It is small
16:20:20 <krinn> it might get attach to an engine that is there, might be attach to aother previous wagon i create...
16:21:05 <krinn> i could of course seek out every vehicleID i found in that depot, this still won't tell me where my wagon is gone :)
16:21:08 <George> andythenorth: I'll send you psd Thank you
16:21:42 <andythenorth> George: you need a big face shovel or such?
16:21:55 <andythenorth>
16:22:35 <krinn> if you have 3 vehicle: build a wagon -> where is the wagon ? for now the solve would be check all vehicleID in the depot and record their length, compare them, bigger one got the wagon, and then lol assume last wagon is the newest one
16:22:43 <George> andythenorth: Yes
16:22:50 <krinn> then detach it, refit it, and attach it to the good vehicle i wish it to be
16:23:45 <krinn> not really a "simple" way to just build a new wagon in a depot :P
16:24:02 <Yexo> I know, hence my proposal to change the behavior
16:24:27 <krinn> i agree, new engine should always get a new vehicleID
16:24:28 <andythenorth> George: if it was a lot bigger it might be too big?
16:24:31 <Yexo> I'm already convinced it should be changed somehow, just busy with something else right now
16:24:36 <krinn> and let the ai attach it where it wish
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16:26:40 <George> I didn't say it shoul be much bigger. I said it should look bigger to fit with your trucks
16:27:04 <andythenorth> hmm
16:27:14 <andythenorth> sometimes it's possible to scale up with pixel art
16:27:21 * andythenorth will try
16:29:10 <andythenorth> George: does it *need* to be animated? (and if so would you draw the needed frames)?
16:29:50 <krinn> Yexo, the most simpler solve would be having a function that gave the vehicleID a UnitNumber is attach to
16:29:53 <andythenorth> it scales up ok to 130%
16:29:59 <andythenorth> I can clean up some pixels by hand
16:30:10 <krinn> like this one, but invert :
16:30:32 <Yexo> you're misunderstanding that function
16:30:51 <krinn> that one gave the interal openttd id of an engine in a vehicle no ?
16:30:52 <George> andythenorth: Yes, it would be nice to have it animated.
16:31:02 <Yexo> a unit number is just an increasing number that is used to generate the "Train #<num>" numbers
16:31:14 <Yexo> it's not used anywhere by the game engine
16:31:17 <George> andythenorth: No, I did't plan to draw animation stages myself
16:31:18 <krinn> ah ok
16:31:22 <Yexo> the only id used is the VehicleID
16:31:41 <Yexo> and you already get the proper VehicleID, only AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle() limits the IDs that you can use
16:32:00 <Yexo> the VehicleID of a wagon that is attached to an engine for example is invalid for your AI due to AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle
16:32:08 <Yexo> for OpenTTD internal use that VehicleID is still used and valid
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16:32:34 <Yexo> but extending the IDs that AIVehicle::IsValidVehicle() allows leads to other problems, so that's not a good solution
16:32:44 <andythenorth> George: you like the 130% version?
16:32:48 <krinn> if we could have a function that return then the AI version vehicleID of an attach openttd internal vehicleID, problem solve
16:33:06 <George> andythenorth: Yes, 150% increaase would fit well. Just place your truck nearby to see, if it fits as truck loader
16:33:24 <Yexo> krinn: either you don't want to get it or I'm not explaining it well. Either way I've already given the proper solution twice
16:33:27 * Yexo is really gone now
16:33:34 <krinn> :p
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16:34:41 <andythenorth> George: this is 130% with truck
16:35:23 <George> Yes, that is good
16:36:37 <andythenorth> I'll clean it up
16:37:16 <George> I though about something like this
16:38:52 <andythenorth> the machine, or the angle?
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16:42:54 <George> the machine
16:50:26 <andythenorth> George: give me ~15 mins :)
16:50:43 <George> :D
16:51:00 <__ln__>
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16:57:55 <andythenorth> George:
16:58:04 <andythenorth> not my best art ever, but it might be enough?
16:58:39 <Alberth> it's yours
16:58:47 <planetmaker> hm?
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16:59:12 <andythenorth> the machine is mine
16:59:19 <andythenorth> the mine is george :)
16:59:28 <andythenorth> the mine is not mine
16:59:47 <Alberth> nice mine, much more clear than a building over a hole in the ground :)
16:59:50 <George> hm. It does not look like
17:00:14 <planetmaker> yep, the mine is a very nice one
17:00:40 <Alberth> it should have an animation where a part gets blown up :p
17:01:00 <andythenorth> George: swap the yellow to orange?
17:01:39 <George> I do not think the colour is wrong, but the proportions. The cabin looks too large
17:01:53 <andythenorth> ok
17:01:58 <andythenorth> I'll reduce it
17:02:34 <George> also the arm looks like ... it is in the air
17:03:02 <George> it does not look like a construction, but like ... parts
17:04:01 <andythenorth> smaller cabin
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17:12:19 <George> it still looks unbalanced
17:12:54 <George> Sorry, I have to go
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17:15:28 <andythenorth> George: I'll pm
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17:34:12 <andythenorth> how do I grep for recently created files?
17:35:25 <Ammler> andythenorth: find?
17:35:38 <Ammler> -mtime
17:35:53 <Ammler> or use hg
17:35:55 <Alberth> -ctime actually
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17:36:22 <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out why my mac just played a camera sound three times
17:36:26 <andythenorth> as though taking pictures
17:36:35 * andythenorth wonders if he has malware
17:36:39 <krinn> ls -lt
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17:37:46 <planetmaker> wrong window, krinn :-P
17:38:14 <Alberth> find / -mtime 1 -print although / as starting point may be a bit too much
17:38:33 <krinn> not really planetmaker ls -lt show files by time :p
17:38:45 <Alberth> (sorry about confusing you with -ctime)
17:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i always use -trl, what use is -tl without r?
17:39:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: / is the only valid option :P
17:39:24 <Alberth> same as you do with -r if you don't have sub-directories :)
17:39:26 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i think the order
17:39:28 <andythenorth> for my purpose
17:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and -mtime +1 or so
17:39:44 <planetmaker> ls -lt | head or | less
17:39:45 <krinn> or more like Alberth says recurse :)
17:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there's some weird stuff with "exactly 1", "at least 1" or "at most 1"
17:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> find is weird...
17:40:24 <Alberth> andythenorth: hmm, maybe -1
17:40:38 <andythenorth> this may take some time :P
17:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i never remember which is which
17:40:52 <Alberth> - is less-than :)
17:41:25 <Alberth> andythenorth: check a leaf directory for the -ctime value
17:41:52 <Alberth> if you are unlucky you will just get files modified exactly 24 hours ago :p
17:41:56 <andythenorth> or I just live with malware taking pictures of me stroking my chin :P
17:42:07 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: gaffer tape?
17:42:09 <krinn> system may alter them itself, so don't rm -rf / if you see changes :)
17:42:10 <andythenorth> wonder where it would post them too?
17:42:24 <andythenorth> to /s
17:42:46 <andythenorth> and why would malware play a sound effect? it's somewhat revealing
17:42:59 <andythenorth> probably not malware :P
17:43:19 <andythenorth> unless it's socially engineering me to ignore it
17:43:30 <krinn> you'll discover spying user is not a malware for mac, it's a feature by apple :)
17:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the bad thing is that this sounds actually plausible :p
17:44:29 <krinn> one guy was doing that at an apple shop
17:44:34 <krinn> taking pic of customers
17:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the same thing would have been said about microsoft 15 years ago, if webcams were widespread back then
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22870 /trunk/src/lang/ (greek.txt portuguese.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 5 changes by kyrm
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 36 changes by Peymanpn
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
17:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> they had this story a few months back where they "caught" a laptop thief because the regular owner was able to log in and take photos
17:45:55 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, nearly, we would have more a gpf because of a bug in the spyware then
17:46:21 <andythenorth> I am thinking of installing that software
17:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and it was suspected that this was more of a marketing ploy...
17:46:49 <andythenorth> you're talking about prey and other such
17:47:29 <krinn>
17:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> not remembering any names
17:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> long link is long
17:48:01 <krinn>
17:48:09 <krinn> for Eddi|zuHause lazyness :)
17:48:25 <andythenorth> how would you disguise the image file if you were writing malware?
17:48:28 <andythenorth> system logs?
17:48:45 <andythenorth> or hide in plain sight - in another folder full of jpg or such?
17:48:49 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, better use xchat, right click and open link, you're not really copy all links no?
17:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: no, i have a modern client that can open urls with a single click.
17:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that is totally not the point
17:50:14 * andythenorth can't be bothered to look in several thousand files for pictures of self :P
17:50:31 * V453000 simply does not have pictures of self for sure
17:50:34 <andythenorth> possibly you wouldn't save it, but mail it somewhere?
17:50:50 <andythenorth> mail / upload
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18:01:40 <Wolf01> hello
18:01:47 <Alberth> hello
18:01:58 * planetmaker does have picture of V453000 :-P
18:03:39 <Eddi|zuHause> same as all others who were at r20k
18:04:10 <krinn> hi
18:05:09 <V453000> crap :D
18:11:19 <planetmaker> hm... adding two tree sprite numbers doesn't give another tree sprite number ;-)
18:11:36 <pjpe> who made the opengfx maglev station
18:11:48 <pjpe> that is hands down the best looking station in the game
18:11:51 <planetmaker> in case of doubt: zephyris
18:12:34 <V453000> monorail is nicer :)
18:13:08 <pjpe> no way
18:13:14 <planetmaker> Foobar and zephyris
18:13:55 <planetmaker> rail station is additionally also partially done by DanMacK
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18:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, i learned yesterday that "hg outgoing default" makes me not type in the password, and setting "out = outgoing default" in the [alias]-section makes me save remembering the command
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18:45:40 <andythenorth> 3 tile locks are stupid
18:46:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: draw me different ones :-)
18:47:05 <planetmaker> you need to use three tiles, but you can make it look differently
18:47:56 <andythenorth> oh
18:48:04 <andythenorth> hmm
18:48:08 <andythenorth> kind offer, but no gain :P
18:48:57 <planetmaker> why no gain?
18:49:12 <andythenorth> still 3 tiles
18:49:13 <andythenorth> :)
18:49:50 <planetmaker> one tile?
18:50:08 <planetmaker> hm... lock or dock?
18:50:22 <planetmaker> On a 3 tile lock you can arbitrarily place things as you see fit
18:50:29 <planetmaker> thus simulate anything between 0 and 3
18:50:53 <andythenorth> locks should be 2 iles
18:50:55 <andythenorth> tiles /s
18:51:21 <Alberth> 1/2 at the first, 1 at the slope, and 1/2 at the end?
18:51:23 <planetmaker> Well. Then draw it. Feasible
18:51:28 <planetmaker> like what alberth said
18:52:17 <andythenorth> still 3 tiles though :P
18:52:53 <planetmaker> :-)
18:54:59 * andythenorth considers using the truck-feeder method to defeat stupid station ratings
18:57:29 <Terkhen> you can also implement a custom rating callback that always gives you 100%
18:57:52 <andythenorth> indeed :)
18:57:55 <andythenorth> is that cheating though
18:58:18 <Terkhen> no, then it is a decision of the NewGRF set author :P
18:59:42 <V453000> hmm :)
18:59:52 <andythenorth> can I hide the rating :P
18:59:55 <andythenorth> it annoys me
19:01:24 <Terkhen> why? I ignored it for years before I played online for the first time
19:01:38 <Terkhen> I ignored it as soon as it was higher than 70, of course :)
19:01:58 <andythenorth> mine are mostly 'very poor'
19:02:20 <planetmaker> you should use the 'full load' orders on primary industries
19:02:32 <andythenorth> I do
19:02:35 <planetmaker> it's even realistic ;-)
19:02:48 *** Zeknurn has quit IRC
19:02:50 <planetmaker> then I don#t understand how you end up at 'very poor'
19:02:59 <planetmaker> you use too few trains then
19:03:04 <andythenorth> yup
19:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> implement callback 145
19:03:23 <andythenorth> more trains will make my 2-track railroad too busy
19:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need to time it so your train arrives exactly when the other one leaves
19:03:59 *** pjpe has quit IRC
19:04:14 <andythenorth> I know how to solve it :) I just don't want to play that way
19:04:29 <Eddi|zuHause> well, then my previous comment applies :)
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19:04:40 <andythenorth> yes
19:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make callback 145 always return 100%
19:05:18 <andythenorth> and then industry will always distribute 100%?
19:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:05:26 <planetmaker> or you devise a 'recession' economy
19:05:53 <andythenorth> or remove supplies :P
19:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> *slap*
19:06:10 <andythenorth> it's a non-issue in default game - if ratings are low, production falls...
19:06:20 <andythenorth> FIRS allows for this lazy play style
19:14:08 <V453000> wait so you want to make station ratings high even when vehicles are not always in the station?
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19:14:38 <andythenorth> yes
19:15:24 <V453000> jesus
19:15:29 <andythenorth> good or bad?
19:15:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:15:56 <Eddi|zuHause> at least for a time like 30 to 60 days, ratings should not drop below 50%
19:16:22 <andythenorth> it's another reason why supplies might still be a misfeature :P
19:16:22 <V453000> for lazy players?
19:16:29 <andythenorth> not just lazy
19:16:33 <andythenorth> different play style
19:16:51 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to realize, V453000 is allergic to non-coop playstyles :p
19:17:02 <andythenorth> with supplies, the need to maintain ratings is suppose to be gone
19:17:07 <andythenorth> but it isn't
19:17:13 <Terkhen> it's a callback, you can do whatever you want with it
19:17:17 <andythenorth> I know
19:17:18 <Terkhen> :P
19:17:20 <andythenorth> but should I :P
19:17:22 <planetmaker> for heaven's sake, then just remove supplies, call it default industries+ and we can stop having this discussion over and over and over and over and ...
19:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, please
19:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> please please
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19:17:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: isn't it a standalone grf?
19:17:41 <andythenorth> shouldn't be part of FIRS
19:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it must be part of the grf providing the cargo?
19:18:03 <andythenorth> ok
19:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the callback is per-cargo
19:18:09 <andythenorth> right
19:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> so you must know which industry set is loaded
19:18:22 <andythenorth> so in FIRS
19:18:31 <andythenorth> but locked to 100% is stupid?
19:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> imho in FIRS, but with parameter
19:18:35 <andythenorth> some other algorithm?
19:18:44 <andythenorth> what's interesting?
19:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> could use the parameter to select different algorithms
19:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> make the 100% first, and then we experiment with different algorithms
19:19:11 <andythenorth> so I basically play NARS 2, US style railroading
19:19:22 <andythenorth> long trains, not very fast, slow travel times
19:19:31 <andythenorth> hmm
19:19:37 <andythenorth> could be tweaked per cargo
19:19:45 <andythenorth> so the bulk cargos are much less sensitive
19:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause> primary cargos/secondary cargos/supplies?
19:20:17 <andythenorth> pax, mail
19:20:18 <V453000> or just throw FIRS away and come draw NUTS :D :P
19:20:31 * andythenorth considers
19:20:37 <andythenorth> FIRS *is* nearly done
19:20:42 <andythenorth> apart from all the bits not done
19:20:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the whole economies thing is not done :p
19:21:10 <planetmaker> economies might be for > 1.0
19:21:16 <andythenorth> improved ground-tiles-with-foundations isn't done
19:21:22 <andythenorth> reworked supplies isn't done
19:21:37 <andythenorth> randomised initial production isn't done
19:21:42 <andythenorth> snow isn't finished
19:21:49 <andythenorth> date-sensitive graphics aren't done
19:22:26 <andythenorth> redrawing default industries isn't done (and may never be)
19:22:49 <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> make the 100% first, and then we experiment with different algorithms <- I already have a patch for that
19:23:02 <Yexo> so feel free to suggest alternative algorithms I could implement
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19:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: something that is less sensitive to time intervals. 30 days: 70%, 60 days: 50%
19:25:01 <andythenorth> Yexo: I'll happily test in my current game :P
19:25:03 <andythenorth> :)
19:25:51 <andythenorth> I think what's going to happen is same outcome as if I just played properly....
19:25:55 <andythenorth> I have to build a lot more trains
19:25:59 <andythenorth> and a lot more track
19:27:21 <andythenorth> Yexo: url for the patch? :D
19:28:08 <frosch123> btw, is there a reason to include such features into firs? why no separate grf?
19:28:14 <Yexo> andythenorth:
19:28:21 <Yexo> frosch123: it's a cargo callback
19:28:45 <Yexo> so if it's a separate grf it needs to be very careful to follow the firs cargo definitions, it must be loaded after firs and include the same cargo icons
19:29:19 <andythenorth> on a similar note, having FISH adjust base water construction costs would be wrong?
19:29:43 <frosch123> hmm, ok, i had the impression it was a generic callback :)
19:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: good idea, but have the parameter set to "default"
19:30:48 <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: something that is less sensitive to time intervals. 30 days: 70%, 60 days: 50% <- you mean "Days since last cargo pickup"?
19:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes
19:31:00 * andythenorth reads cb145 docs
19:31:11 <Yexo> should it also effect "amount of cargo waiting"?
19:31:20 <andythenorth> there should be some curve
19:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: maybe
19:31:28 <andythenorth> a *lot* of cargo waiting is bad
19:31:37 <andythenorth> might be an interesting positive feedback
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19:31:49 <V453000> so a lot of waiting cargo is bad but you want to keep ratings for a longer time?
19:31:51 <V453000> :d
19:32:02 <andythenorth> if >1000t is waiting, and rating plummets, not much more will be added to station
19:32:16 <andythenorth> max speed and age are stupid in ottd
19:32:20 <andythenorth> made sense in original game
19:32:27 <Eddi|zuHause> so: <30days: 70%, <60days: 60%, >1000 units: -10%, >2000 units: -15%
19:32:28 <andythenorth> statue bonus is stupid
19:32:50 <Yexo> age of last vehicle can't be adjusted by the callback, nor can the statue bonus
19:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause> statue bonus is kind of "this company is rich enough"
19:33:15 <V453000> well, no matter how "stupid" the bonuses or whatnot are, I think they work just fine
19:33:21 <Eddi|zuHause> imho it should not be the age of the vehicle, but the age of the model...
19:33:27 <andythenorth> nah
19:33:40 <andythenorth> sd40-2 goes forever
19:33:46 <andythenorth> bab
19:33:47 <andythenorth> 
19:33:49 <andythenorth> biab even
19:33:50 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: currently it's <7.5 days: 51%, < 15days: 37%, <30days: 20%. Are you sure you want to increase the percentages to 70% and 60%?
19:34:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "wow, this is the first transrapid" is certainly more attention attracting than "wow, this BR146 is brandnew, but it is the 500th of its kind"
19:34:41 <Yexo> for amount we have now >1000: -14%, > 1500: -35%
19:35:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, i want transfer-stations to keep ratings above 50% unless they are _really_ badly serviced
19:35:42 <Yexo> and keep the positive bonusses for small amounts of cargo waiting?
19:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, haven't looked that much into the details
19:36:13 <Yexo> and what about max speed of last vehicle?
19:36:21 <Yexo> currently it's (Speed (km/h) - 85) / 4
19:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that only makes sense for passengers
19:36:26 <Yexo> so 0..17%
19:36:44 <Yexo> ok, so set to fixed 17% bonus for other cargoes?
19:37:04 <planetmaker> amount waiting is not the best proxy due to large transfer stations usually have high amounts waiting
19:37:10 <planetmaker> even if turnover is really high
19:37:38 <Yexo> planetmaker: but there is nothing better available
19:37:40 <planetmaker> I've had stations which shipped 30k pax a month - but had very poor as cargo was constantly between 0 and 5000k waiting
19:37:50 <planetmaker> changing daily
19:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so >1000: -10%, >2000: -15%, >5000: -20%, >10000: -30%
19:38:42 <planetmaker> better proxy would be waiting / monthly turnover
19:39:01 <planetmaker> or something along that
19:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but that needs openttd patches
19:39:24 <planetmaker> yes :-P
19:39:33 <Eddi|zuHause> a) logging that value, b) making it available to the newgrf
19:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> c) multiple related objects, so you have access to both the station and the vehicle
19:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> "özil vs. ösis"
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20:00:57 <andythenorth> patch for station tiles that can boost ratings :P
20:00:59 <andythenorth> warehouses
20:01:00 <andythenorth> etc
20:01:54 <andythenorth> yexo - with your 100% patch, it will take time for station rating to increase from current levels?
20:03:23 <Yexo> yes
20:03:25 <Yexo> and you need to enable the setting first, it's disabled by default
20:04:07 <andythenorth> and restart ottd...
20:07:03 <Eddi|zuHause> why that?
20:07:24 <andythenorth> action 14 is cached
20:07:33 <Eddi|zuHause> reload_newgrfs?
20:07:38 <andythenorth> code changes to parameters don't show up without a restart
20:07:50 <andythenorth> heh
20:07:56 <andythenorth> I now have insane amounts of cargo available
20:08:04 * andythenorth builds more trains :P
20:08:15 <tokai> Did anyone ever thought about allowing terra forming (lowering/raising land) when there are tracks on top already? :) Always a bit annoying to have to demolish the tracks first when one wants to improve some bits. :)
20:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> tokai: are you playing a version from 5 years ago?
20:09:05 <tokai> Nope. Just downloaded a brand new version. (well... didn't played for a while.. perhaps a year or two :)
20:09:22 <tokai> Some stuff is a bit confusing right now (not as it used to be ;)
20:10:45 <tokai> Fast forward seems to be a bit broken. At least its speed up is hardly noticeable. (Max OS X version here)
20:11:06 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause / andythenorth: new diff
20:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that depends kinda on the save game used
20:11:15 <Yexo> <_ compiled grf
20:11:30 <Yexo> this implements eddi's proposed values approximately
20:11:31 <andythenorth> tokai: on OS X ffwd is highly variable
20:11:48 <andythenorth> depends on your hardware, map size, number of vehicles etc
20:12:13 <andythenorth> the 100% patch *is* a bit insane
20:12:32 <andythenorth> will good station ratings also affect LA rating?
20:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> no
20:12:44 <Yexo> no
20:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> LA only consideres "service within last 20 days"
20:13:30 <Yexo> last 50 days
20:13:48 <tokai> andythenorth: I know how it used to be on MorphOS at least. It was like "whooooosh". Now I only get like a 2% increase or such. Just a very basic map and a few busses. Nothing special at least. :) Also CPU usage isn't maxing out. Perhaps screen refresh is limiting factor here.
20:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> where "service" means "at least 1 unit loaded or unloaded"
20:14:03 <Yexo> it's actually last 20 2.5-day cycles
20:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: ah, that explains this :)
20:15:12 <Yexo> yes, the wiki (and as such several forum posts) have been spreading wrong information about that for a long time
20:15:36 <andythenorth> that's a common pattern :P
20:15:49 <andythenorth> e.g. game lighting direction, town effect of goods etc
20:16:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22872 /trunk/src/bmp.cpp: -Fix [FS#4746]: Improve handling of slightly invalid BMP files using the under-specified RLE compression. Improve coding style while at it as well. (Based on patch by monoid)
20:16:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22873 /trunk/src/ (heightmap.cpp lang/english.txt spriteloader/png.cpp): -Fix [FS#4747]: Validate image dimensions before loading. (Based on patch by monoid)
20:16:42 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22871 /trunk/src/bmp.cpp: -Fix [FS#4746]: Perform stricter checks on RLE compressed BMP images. (monoid)
20:16:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22874 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#4747]: Check size of various buffers before allocation. (monoid)
20:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "under-specified" is a new euphemism for "buggy"?
20:17:30 * andythenorth considers replacing all railroads with canals to handle insane amounts of cargo from ratings patch :)
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20:18:35 <tokai> Eddi|zuHause: do I need to enable some advanced option to make it work. I don't see/ find it. :)
20:19:48 <Eddi|zuHause> tokai: yes, under construction: allow landscaping under buildings, etc.
20:21:43 * andythenorth considers reducing freight weight multiplier
20:21:44 <tokai> It's actually enabled already, but it still complains that I must remove the railroad track first.
20:22:24 <Yexo> you want to terraform under railroad track? That's currently not possible, there is simply no option for that
20:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that has been working for years
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20:23:30 <Yexo> well, as long as the height of the tracks doesn't change, yes
20:24:00 <Yexo> tokai: is "Allow building on slopes and coasts" enabled?
20:25:00 <tokai> Well.. I want to change the track height in one go... that'S what I meant.. e.g. you have your tracks over a small bump.. then I want to lower the bump and the track should adjust.
20:25:27 <Yexo> there is no option to allow that currently
20:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, then i have misunderstood you
20:26:38 * planetmaker wonders why that might be needed
20:26:56 <planetmaker> and what realism-people would think of it ;-)
20:28:32 * andythenorth is pleased with the patch by yexo :)
20:28:43 <andythenorth> lots of cargo, long trains, freight weight = 3
20:29:29 <Yexo> which setting are you using? eddi's algorithm or 100%?
20:30:11 <andythenorth> eddi's
20:30:20 <andythenorth> seems to work so far
20:30:25 <andythenorth> the 100% was a bit insane
20:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the 100% could be compensated with lower initial production
20:30:55 <andythenorth> maybe time to branch FIRS 0.7.0 and commit this to trunk FIRS?
20:32:26 <Yexo> sure, shall I commit?
20:35:46 <andythenorth> yes
20:37:19 <Eddi|zuHause> "Gerard Depardieu releases video showing him as Obelix in an airplane, with a certain craving"
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20:54:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22875 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Add some asserts and checks to better prevent overflow of the argument to malloc. (monoid)
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21:32:25 <tokai> it seems hiding the OpenTTD window speeds up fast forward on Mac OS X (CPU usage goes up too, then). As I suspected the screen refresh is the limiting factor (have similar effects an emulator). :)
21:35:53 <appe> hm
21:36:08 <appe> i wish to drag a train track trough a full 2024 map
21:36:19 <JVassie> 1024 0r 2048
21:36:19 <planetmaker> get a bigger screen
21:36:22 <appe> is there a faster way then just drag and drop?
21:36:25 <appe> ah, sorry. 2024.
21:36:26 <appe> :>
21:36:27 <JVassie> zoom out?
21:37:47 <Terkhen> appe: open a viewport in one of the ends using the V key, move the main viewport to the other end and then drag the track from one viewport to another
21:38:08 <planetmaker> that works?
21:38:39 <appe> oh
21:38:43 <Terkhen> yes
21:38:43 * appe tries.
21:39:01 <Terkhen> maybe my explanation is a bit confusing :P
21:39:48 <appe> it worked
21:39:49 <appe> aewsomly
21:39:55 <Terkhen> ok :)
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21:47:13 <Wolf01> 'nighty night
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21:57:19 <planetmaker> good night
21:59:15 <Terkhen> good night from here too
21:59:39 <Yexo> and from here :)
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22:18:58 <krinn> hi again
22:21:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22876 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4712]: Report an error in the news if autoreplace/renew fails due to the engine type being no longer available.
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