IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-03
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00:45:41 <JRWR> Well, I'm done with the basic setup, just setup a dedicated server for all the US players
00:50:49 <JRWR> anyway, the ubuntu version is alot never then the windows version... gotta downgrade
01:10:50 <pikka> I see the briefcase is safe
01:14:15 <JRWR> Anything I should know extra for dedicated servers, I've read most of the man pages
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04:54:35 <pjpe> does anyone know what uh
04:54:51 <pjpe> (row with the rail intersection)
04:54:58 <pjpe> the 5 sprites after the first one are for?
04:55:23 <pjpe> oh wait they're probably junction underlay
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07:28:33 <csaba> I have started a game with an AI that always crashes. Is there a way I can set the already saved game use some other AI?
07:34:48 <Terkhen> yes, you can stop that AI and start a new one
07:34:54 <Alberth> can you change the settings from within the game from the options?
07:35:32 <Alberth> I don't know how good AIs are at taking over stuff built previously though
07:35:37 <csaba> ok figured it out... stop_ai 3 and then start_ai
07:36:16 <csaba> another question, I'm using an AI that is supposed to build a national highway grid, but it has ran out of money and bankrupted
07:36:27 <csaba> can I somehow give it a lot of money?
07:36:47 <pjpe> i have an nml file that is making new tracks, i have a parameter that i want to use to control whether a track replaces monorail or adds the track as a new type
07:36:51 <pjpe> anyone have an idea how?
07:37:00 <pjpe> i tried using a switch to determine the track label
07:37:02 <pjpe> but that doesn't compile
07:37:04 <planetmaker> csaba: cheat yourself to the company and then use the money cheat
07:37:12 <planetmaker> then cheat back to your company
07:38:22 <planetmaker> pjpe: conditionally include one or the other item delcaration
07:39:29 <planetmaker> if (param == blah) { item(FEAT_RAILTYPES, name) { property { label: choice1; }}} else { .. }
07:43:16 <pjpe> nml is so much simpler than fuckin
07:44:39 <pjpe> still feels weird in places though
07:44:46 <pjpe> like you can't encapsulate large blocks in if statements
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07:51:48 <pjpe> is there any way to make a rail type uh
07:51:51 <pjpe> let trains of a certain railtype
07:51:59 <pjpe> but not be built by a depot of that type
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08:06:15 <planetmaker> pjpe: you mean like steam engines can be built in an electrical depot?
08:06:34 <planetmaker> Obviously that works. Engines have to have power on that railtype
08:06:41 <planetmaker> then they can be built there
08:06:54 <pjpe> i mean have a train that is powered on
08:07:03 <pjpe> i made a set that makes a metrotrack
08:07:10 <Terkhen> I think he means that trains can move through the track but not be built on depots of that track type
08:07:18 <pjpe> and i set mono trains to also be powered and work on metro tracks
08:07:28 <pjpe> but i don't want to be able to build metro trains in a monorail depot
08:07:37 <pjpe> only be able to build them in a metro track one
08:08:20 <planetmaker> hm, I think that doesn't work
08:08:30 <Terkhen> I think that it would make sense to not fill the build vehicle list of a given track type just because some trains can move through that type
08:08:48 <planetmaker> move through != powered
08:09:01 <planetmaker> if they have power imho it makes sense to have the option to build them there
08:09:36 <planetmaker> there are two properties: compatible and powered
08:09:50 <planetmaker> compatible is not build, but can move through (though not on their own power)
08:10:36 <Terkhen> so a train with engines that are only compatible will stop?
08:10:57 <pjpe> i want to be able to also have the original monorail trains in at the same time as metro trains
08:11:11 <pjpe> but if you do that right now then you can build metro rail in monorail
08:11:25 <pjpe> even though they are the same track with a different look and speed limit
08:19:54 <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes, compatible will stop.
08:20:12 <planetmaker> An electric engine can move on unelectrified tracks - when pulled by a diesel or steam engine
08:21:03 <planetmaker> thus double-powering some trains might make sense, if electric tracks are €€€€€€€
08:21:28 <pjpe> i don't think canada even has electric rails
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08:46:15 <csaba> could someone please help me solve this problem: http://i.imgur.com/22gCU.png I have a station where trains may come in from both directions. The incoming track has a path signal. On the outgoing track is a depot to serve. The problem is, the incoming train reserves 2 tracks when entering the station, so no other trains may enter at the same time.
08:46:36 <csaba> How to fix this problem?
08:47:13 <csaba> I thought maybe the depot would work as a semaphore but it didn't help at all
08:48:25 <Pinkbeast> Also, turn off "allow trains to make 90 degree turns"?
08:48:49 <pjpe> and make sure trains can turn around there
08:48:51 <Pinkbeast> I would add a signal facing the platform before each crossover.
08:49:13 <csaba> hmm thanks for the help
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09:11:47 <Tatsh> just want to say thanks to whoever wrote the instructions for the cross copmpiler targetting OS X
09:12:35 <Tatsh> can't build arm, but i could build i686-apple-darwin11 and x86_64-apple-darwin11 without too much trouble (not trustworthy enough for a script yet though)
09:16:35 <planetmaker> hm, that's interesting. Do you have the diffs?
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09:18:41 <Tatsh> planetmaker, yea but the thing was my text editor messed up things which is why i just made a project
09:18:48 <Tatsh> i can make the diffs still
09:19:35 <Terkhen> as long as the project files are not added to the cvs, the diffs should be clean
09:19:57 * planetmaker clones the git repo
09:22:28 <krinn> Is there a special thing about articulated vehicle ? because i can check if a vehicle is articulated or not, and i always throw them away without really knowing why :)
09:23:42 <planetmaker> articulated vehicles can only use drive-through road stops
09:23:59 <planetmaker> (if road vehicles)
09:24:24 <krinn> wow, that's a restriction
09:28:30 <planetmaker> Tatsh: you still use gcc 4.0 for that? (or so some hints suggest?)
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09:29:29 <Tatsh> no, it's just that's what p5490 is
09:32:05 <Tatsh> the main issue with odcctools is apple's coding; gcc 4.5 wants typename for instantiation of classes that come from templates
09:32:42 <Tatsh> and i'm not sure how they got anything to compile in ld64 when a class definition is not even present above it's mentioning in a struct; not even a forward declaration (which would never suffice)
09:42:33 <Tatsh> oh yea blocks; there are a few headers that have block functions and GCC has no support for them; they are not wrapped in #ifdef __BLOCKS__ either; so you can just do so manually on your header files
09:42:51 <Tatsh> if you include <Foundation/Foundation.h> as it is from Lion, you will get a compile error
09:45:39 <planetmaker> they might compile with clang
09:53:57 <planetmaker> Tatsh: does your build chain also build iOS binaries, or "just" 10.5 ... 10.7?
09:55:51 <Tatsh> no iOS yet; i plan to do that but with clang or llvm-gcc like the real toolchain
09:56:22 <Tatsh> i don't think compiling C++ is possible with the 10.7sdk so maybe i make mention of that
09:56:49 <Tatsh> according to forum posts, the errors i'm getting have solely to do with using gcc 4.0.x instead of 4.2
09:58:05 <planetmaker> errors or warnings?
09:59:43 <Tatsh> on inclusion of <iostream>, /home/tatsh/usr/x86_64-apple-darwin11/usr/include/c++/4.2.1/ext/atomicity.h:51: error: '__sync_fetch_and_add' was not declared in this scope
10:00:07 <Tatsh> and i have to do another weird -I to make it find the header
10:02:43 <Tatsh> this is apparently all fixed in 4.2 so i hoep to get that going real soon
10:02:56 <Tatsh> mingw had a similar issue until they were synced with 4.2
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10:31:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22877 /trunk/src/sound/win32_s.cpp: -Fix (r22874): Fix broken compilation on MinGW.
10:39:43 <andythenorth> did I mention 3 tile locks are silly?
10:39:48 * andythenorth goes back to drawing
10:41:46 <Terkhen> maybe once or twice :P
10:44:31 <krinn> does that error speak to someone? Use only multiple unit wagons
10:46:23 <planetmaker> krinn: use the correct wagon
10:46:59 <planetmaker> well. That's what the message tells you. It even tells you which are corrrect
10:47:29 <krinn> you mean i have wagons named "multiple"
10:52:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22878 /trunk/src/spriteloader/png.cpp: -Fix (r22873-ish): Check range before casting to uint16.
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11:21:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22879 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Miscalculation of train curve speed limits. (monoid)
11:28:26 <sivik> wow, this is still a good channel
11:28:50 <sivik> Ok, all these darn different kinds of signals are confusing me. I read over the documentation like 3 times
11:29:42 <krinn> use PBS it do wonder in all cases
11:29:55 <sivik> PBS like the tv station?
11:30:12 <krinn> no like Poor Boys Sorry
11:30:22 <sivik> I don't understand what you mean by that.
11:30:55 <sivik> krinn, can I describe what i'm having issues with?
11:31:20 <krinn> some stuck trains i suppose :)
11:31:29 <sivik> one station, two trains from different directions, let say it points up and down and one enters from top and one from bottom
11:31:33 <sivik> they either crash or never get there.
11:31:42 <sivik> I cannot figure out which signal to use to make it work
11:32:06 <sivik> which signal is that in the game?
11:33:04 <sivik> top or bottom of the window?
11:33:20 <krinn> same, they are just for the look
11:33:49 <krinn> top and bottom ones have same function, just different graphics
11:33:59 <sivik> I tried the 5th and and my trains get lost
11:34:04 <sivik> and keep going in circles
11:34:26 <krinn> because you need a rail next to the station so train can turn around
11:34:47 <krinn> made it a two station, or build a rail that connect each entry/exit to each other
11:35:00 <krinn> but it would be just better to add the two platforms
11:35:26 <krinn> if you want them to work with only 1 platform, use the same entry for both trains
12:17:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22880 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.h: -Cleanup: SIZE_MAX is now defined in stdafx.h
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12:45:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22881 /trunk/src/ (core/alloc_func.hpp pathfinder/npf/queue.cpp stdafx.h): -Fix (r22875): GCC warnings on 64bit systems.
12:48:39 <frosch123> not that i am interested in a new ottd logo... but why does every suggestion in that thread build a logo with tracks and stuff in game?
12:50:34 <planetmaker> I wonder that, too. It doesn't make for a good logo really...
12:51:03 <frosch123> esp. not when icon-sized :p
12:51:29 <__ln__> but the current one isn't good either
12:52:04 <frosch123> orudge: btw. what happened to tt-wiki / newgrf-specs wiki logos?
12:52:52 <frosch123> afaik i had the best (or only? :p) suggestion :
12:52:53 <krinn> i like the current one, it show more what the main game was
12:53:18 <frosch123> yup, tt-forums uses a similiar logo
12:53:23 <frosch123> so it is corporate design
12:57:09 <andythenorth> the logo is fine
12:57:16 <andythenorth> discussing it wastes characters :P
12:57:23 <andythenorth> characters consume coal
12:57:45 <Hirundo> in the end, it makes kittens die?
12:59:09 <orudge> frosch123: at the moment, nothing, I guess
12:59:51 <__ln__> andythenorth: would you wear a t-shirt with the current logo?
13:00:11 <orudge> you mean like www.cafepress.com/openttd ?
13:00:18 * orudge has never actually ordered from there, to be fair, despite setting it up
13:00:22 <orudge> not sure if anybody has
13:00:26 <frosch123> i considered buying one of the caps for the r20k party
13:00:44 <frosch123> but yes, the logo looks weird if it is too big
13:00:44 <__ln__> orudge: yes, like that
13:00:47 <frosch123> it is more a small logo
13:01:03 <frosch123> too few details for something to print on a tshirt
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13:01:51 <__ln__> i wouldn't wear a dollar sign, it gives the wrong impression to the minority of world population that has never heard about openttd.
13:02:19 <orudge> huh, apparently I was sent a US cheque for $1 in January
13:02:29 <orudge> to the address that I no longer live in
13:02:43 <frosch123> a cheque for $1? wow
13:02:54 <frosch123> how much does it cost to exchange it?
13:02:56 <orudge> that apparently is the only payment I've ever (not) received from CafePress
13:02:59 <orudge> well, I have a US bank account
13:03:02 <orudge> I just don't live there any more
13:03:11 <orudge> but, well, $1 is currently about 61p
13:04:04 <orudge> I'll ask Andrew if any mail arrived for me when I see him later this month, but he'll probably have thrown it out if anything did turn up. And it'd cost more to get to the bank on the bus than the cheque is worth :p
13:04:29 <orudge> they now support PayPal, too, how useful
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13:13:14 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the sense of mailing a cheque when the postage fee exceeds its value?
13:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i have ever seen anyone using a cheque...
13:14:53 <michi_cc> Move to the USA, then you can try to find someone using a wire transfer... :p
13:17:36 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: of course it makes sense when the sender owes money to the recipient.
13:21:09 <csaba> I've seen some savegames where industry produces a lot of resources, for example a forrest produces 1500 woods. How was that achieved, I never ever had more than 300
13:22:56 <planetmaker> csaba: provide good service over decades
13:23:03 <planetmaker> rating > 66% helps
13:23:24 <krinn> csaba, some newgrf can do that i suppose
13:23:40 <krinn> desert sawmill if you feed it with trees
13:23:42 <planetmaker> krinn: default industries can do that
13:25:08 <krinn> i think if it was default setting he might have notice how the industry is well served
13:25:18 <frosch123> csaba: default industries with non-smooth economy can never pass 1100 wood or so
13:26:00 <frosch123> so it uses smooth economy, and either lots of time with high speed (maglev) cargo trains
13:26:17 <frosch123> or if there are many of such industries they were build in scenario editor, or the ingame cheat was used
13:27:33 <frosch123> if you play without wagon speed limits and transport cargo at > 200km/h station rating will never drop below 95% or so, and industries are likely to increase production
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13:34:53 <csaba> well I'm currently in 1940 so the max speed a train can do is around 95km/h
13:35:31 <krinn> if you saw the industry doing that in 1940, it was a cheat for sure
13:35:50 <csaba> no it was after 2000 I think
13:36:30 <planetmaker> also in 1940 you can have played for several decades :-)
13:37:01 <krinn> and earn enought money to build that much network that should be need to let the industry produce that much ?
13:37:40 <csaba> currently I transport everywhere at around 70-85% is the goods produced... it can't possible go higher, I have always an extra train waiting in each station to continue picking up the goods as soon as the other one starts going out
13:38:14 <csaba> is it even possible to transport 100% of the goods?
13:38:21 <krinn> you won't get more because of speed, even having zillions trains queuing there
13:38:32 <csaba> so it should improve later on
13:38:48 <csaba> I usually always quit in the 80'es when there's nothing left to build
13:38:50 <krinn> that's the benefits of newer engines
13:39:43 <krinn> and it's logic, just compare a 10 jinty serviced station vs a 2 tgv one :p
14:23:37 <Mellanvarld> Dedicated server seems to be misbehaving on ARM, fails to properly delete tracks.
14:28:51 <planetmaker> anycase, unless debian, I doubt we have an official version which runs on ARM
14:30:50 <Mellanvarld> debian squeeze, ottd compiled from source
14:31:32 <planetmaker> ok. And how does the problem look like in more detail?
14:31:47 <planetmaker> or is the server up and running?
14:31:53 <planetmaker> and what version?
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14:35:11 <Mellanvarld> planetmaker: 81.235.235.122
14:36:58 <planetmaker> seems offline. Or non-default port?
14:37:10 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I managed to connect fine
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14:37:50 <Terkhen> I can remove and place tracks normally
14:38:02 <Terkhen> the game runs a bit laggy, though
14:41:31 <planetmaker> seems also normal to me
14:42:37 <planetmaker> so... how does your problem show, Mellanvarld?
14:43:28 <Mellanvarld> and when resyncing the removed tracks are back again...
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14:44:15 <planetmaker> indeed. My tracks are back :O
14:44:17 <Terkhen> let's be sure that it is reproducible
14:44:20 <planetmaker> is ARM big endian?
14:44:39 <Terkhen> I was thinking on an endian problem too :)
14:45:30 <Terkhen> I placed and removed lots of tracks in the small isle near Furnston
14:46:18 <planetmaker> no tracks there. But bulldozed terrain
14:46:45 <planetmaker> desync when I tried to build there
14:47:36 <planetmaker> err... I did not try to build _that many_ tracks there...
14:47:42 <planetmaker> seems wrong company-assignment
14:48:09 <Alberth> planetmaker: not the ARMs I have worked with a looong time ago
14:48:25 <Terkhen> this is quite strange :)
14:48:37 <planetmaker> and my other tracks are back, too
14:48:52 <Terkhen> but even if we can't pinpoint what is happening exactly, it seems reproducible enough to start logging for desyncs :P
14:49:56 <Terkhen> a bug this big must be endian related
14:50:12 <Terkhen> or something else that prevents it from happening with normal builds
14:50:59 <planetmaker> Mellanvarld: can you paste your config.log somewhere?
14:51:53 <Mellanvarld> where is that file located?
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15:01:01 <Amis> Are there any way to ban a certain type of cargo from a station?
15:01:27 <andythenorth> why would you need to?
15:01:58 <Amis> Because I forgot to refit a plane and now all the passangers are going to the airport instead of the train stations
15:02:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that'll time out after a while
15:03:01 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: don't you need to rebuild the airport?
15:03:27 <Terkhen> checking endianess... AUTO <--- same here
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15:04:54 <planetmaker> well... I have checking endianess... PREPROCESSOR - but that makes seemingly no difference
15:05:14 <planetmaker> as I could in principle build both when building a fat binary
15:05:47 <planetmaker> Mellanvarld: do you know your endianess?
15:08:24 <planetmaker> wth... ARM is / can be bi-endian?
15:08:25 <Amis> So now the passenger rate decreased to 0%... but all of a sudden now it's increasing again, what... the...
15:08:33 <Mellanvarld> uname -a "#5 Tue Sep 7 16:06:15 CEST 2010 armv5tel GNU/Linux"
15:08:52 <TinoDidriksen> Yes, some ARM can switch.
15:09:04 <Amis> Is this some kind of bug or... ?
15:09:18 <Terkhen> or you picked passengers again
15:09:32 <Amis> Terkhen, I'm sure I did not
15:09:42 <Amis> Now it went up to 13% and stuck there
15:10:30 <Amis> I remember something similiar happened to me a while ago, I could not understand why it's not going under a certain percentage
15:12:24 <Alberth> afaik you need to rebuild the station (airport in your case) to really make it stop accepting passengers (rather than just getting a low rating)
15:13:40 <Amis> Now it's really stuck on 16% and the number of passengers are jumping around 400
15:13:44 <appe> when clicking the vehicle depot and the little bus button, isnt that supposed to show all the busses created in the depot? or is it just buses with directions to the depot? :)
15:13:48 <Amis> Not decreasing or increasing at all
15:14:37 <krinn> Amis, you've build a statue no?
15:15:04 <appe> what does the statue do?
15:15:16 <krinn> dunno then, like Eddi|zuHause said destroy & rebuild the airport
15:15:31 <krinn> or if you can, just rebuild it shared with the rail station
15:16:10 <planetmaker> Mellanvarld: that unfortunately doesn't tell me. But there's an endian-check programme compiled in objs/...
15:16:20 <planetmaker> next to all the .o files
15:16:41 <planetmaker> can you run that?
15:17:13 <Amis> What I don't really get is after it drops to 0% why does it start increasing? It's something with the algorithm checking the number of passengers waiting
15:17:41 <michi_cc> planetmaker: armv5tel should be little endian
15:18:18 <planetmaker> *should*. Thus the output of what was compiled or though might be more interesting
15:19:20 <Mellanvarld> #define TTD_ENDIAN TTD_LITTLE_ENDIAN
15:19:21 <Amis> A crash in the area of the local goverment ruins my ratings right?
15:20:14 <planetmaker> thanks, Mellanvarld. Which kinda doesn't make the issue easier, sadly
15:20:36 <krinn> python -c "import sys;sys.exit(0 if sys.byteorder=='big' else 1)"
15:20:46 <krinn> then echo $? -> 1 little, 0 big
15:21:10 <planetmaker> we already have the answer which this openttd build uses, krinn ;-)
15:21:30 <Alberth> and then hope you cannot set that per application :)
15:22:02 <planetmaker> Mellanvarld: would you care to enable desync debugging?
15:22:36 <Mellanvarld> planetmaker: how is that done?
15:25:01 <planetmaker> beware, that produces LOTs of savegames
15:38:09 <__ln__> planetmaker: afaik ARM can be operated either big or little endian, but Linux running on arm is mostly or always little.
15:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> be aware that ARM is not actually a processor, but the synthesis-specs of a processor, so the companies making the chips can make modifications to it (like having processor and chipset in one single chip)
15:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (in software-terms: they sell the source code to the library, not the compiled library)
15:42:37 <fjb> The ability to have both endians is part of the design, but it defaults to little endian.
15:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> on hardware-level, there is very little difference between both
15:43:46 <fjb> The little differences are enough to have a lot of fun.
15:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the real fun begins at the software level :)
15:44:58 <fjb> What is software without hardware?
15:45:43 <fjb> Even that needs some kind of hardware to run on in the end.
15:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause> if you knew me, that would be no suprise :p
15:46:15 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Size does not always matter. :)
15:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure what you're insinuating...
15:52:18 <krinn> openttd have max cargo enum define ?
15:52:30 <krinn> that newgrf cannot bypass
15:52:56 <planetmaker> but it's not an enum
15:53:38 <krinn> :) else newgrf wouldn't be able to alter it
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15:59:08 <appe> i want this driving goods around ttd
16:00:19 <krinn> get generic cars newgrf and aitowncars :p
16:02:30 <appe> hm, i cant get the logic train to reach speeds over 3000km/h
16:02:54 <appe> it takes ages to accelerate, even with no cars attached.
16:04:50 <appe> i only have one train (the LevA Gator) with 66.447hk.
16:06:04 <krinn> you have a realistc acceleration setting, and check corners that could slow them
16:07:26 <appe> the acceleration model is set to "original"
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16:09:04 <appe> still stops at 11.700km/h
16:10:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22882 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix [FS#4758]: [NewGRF] DCxx text references via the textstack are not allowed, but caused crash.
16:11:58 <appe> though, 60.000km/h is rather boring
16:12:04 <appe> i would like to see the tran.
16:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> observing a train gets increasingly difficult the closer it gets to speed of light :p
16:28:17 <__ln__> but why the cubic root
16:30:08 <krinn> because the one that send the pic think it was looking cool
16:32:58 <__ln__> it's the warp factor that makes a starship run, not coolness factor
16:33:57 <krinn> as none (to my knowledge so far :P ) know the warp factor equation: it's just an equation that could (still for the author) appears cool
16:34:33 <krinn> you know you're searching logic to an equation write on a startrek shirt __ln__ ?
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16:51:45 <__ln__> krinn: would be a pity if in the future the first attempt to build a warp engine failed because the key equation was intentionally written wrong on a t-shirt used as the scientific basis.
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16:52:42 *** ChanServ changes topic to "1.1.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only"
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16:52:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v peter1138
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16:59:55 <appe> the anger that rises when you realize "it's a topic change, you havent been kicked and rejoined".
17:00:48 <krinn> never seen anyone kicked from here
17:01:17 * appe is bound the be the first.
17:03:04 <TinoDidriksen> Last kick was on 2011-08-12 at 18:45:39
17:03:41 <TinoDidriksen> But only bot kicks...
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17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22883 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 23 changes by Gavin
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 9 changes by TheLamer
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:46:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 6 changes by IPG
17:46:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
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17:48:25 <krinn> do railtype id are assign by openttd or it's one hardcoded in newgrf ?
17:50:03 <planetmaker> a newgrf cannot chose an ID. Labels are the defining property
17:50:41 <krinn> how many RT are support ?
17:50:44 <pjpe> ever going to release infra
17:57:36 <jonty-comp> and no, she's never going to release it
18:20:05 <krinn> hmmmm cannot query any railtype infos, and i have a newgrf that set railtype speed limit, dead end or i miss a function ?
18:22:07 <frosch123> does AIRailTypeList give you some list?
18:22:25 <krinn> but no clues about the rail in it
18:22:42 <frosch123> what do you want to know about the railtype?
18:22:53 <krinn> i can check my trains against the rail to see if they would work on it, this doesn't tell me that the train will then just run at the max railtype speed limit
18:23:23 <krinn> monorail running at 30km :)
18:24:08 <frosch123> the railtype only sets a single speed limit
18:24:33 <frosch123> while engine newgrfs could change the speed on different railtypes, i am not aware of any grfs doing that
18:25:31 <krinn> but the railtype speed limit enforce the speed over the train
18:25:43 <krinn> so a 300km trains speed == railtype speed
18:25:45 <frosch123> yes, it is a maximum
18:26:06 <krinn> and i'm stuck because if the train can run on rail, i could only assume the rail is fine
18:26:16 <frosch123> the speed of a train is the minimum of various speed limits
18:26:32 <frosch123> railtype limit, bridge limit, wagon limits, limit of the engine itself, ...
18:26:38 <krinn> yep but i can also get the wagon speed limit
18:27:20 <krinn> but i speak about an ai, i'm not that hot to build a function to run the train and watch its maximum speed to catch the railtype speed limit :/
18:27:52 <planetmaker> it's hotter to request those functions written by others, I know :-P
18:28:02 <krinn> even worst, as i cannot query anything about the railtype, i cannot even blacklist it
18:28:28 <krinn> planetmaker, stop assume i know C++ and don't wish to help: i know 0 to c++ :)
18:29:07 <planetmaker> there's somewhere a thread in tt-forums about needed / desired / whatever features for the NoAI framework
18:29:21 <frosch123> krinn: there is AIRail::GetMaxSpeed
18:29:35 <planetmaker> sounds like what is needed :-)
18:29:44 <frosch123> yes, everything is present
18:29:47 <krinn> oh i miss that one wait i recheck !
18:31:05 <krinn> don't you mistake with the GetMaxSpeed from AIVehicle ?
18:31:50 <frosch123> you know the effect of ctrl+f in a browser?
18:32:21 <krinn> yes, but doesn't gave good result if you hit backspace before and fall on AIVehicle page
18:33:30 <krinn> and i've miss that one while i've look at the airail page like 10 times (just today!)
18:37:19 <krinn> do you have a resume page of feature newgrf can do so i would stop asking if a newgrf can do this or that ?
18:38:30 <frosch123> newgrf can reduce their speed on a specific railtype to 10 km/h on wednesdays unless you attached the wednesday-compensation-unit
18:39:14 <krinn> but i've seen so weird things with newgrf "unleash" specs that this might be possible
18:39:33 <frosch123> don't ask what newgrf could do :) live with that current newgrf do :p
18:39:43 <frosch123> krinn: it is possible
18:39:57 <frosch123> if a newgrf author intents to code nonsense, he can do
18:40:29 <krinn> but as it is right now, i discover newgrf while hitting problem and sometimes, problems aren't really easy to see
18:41:17 <krinn> the funny ones as "i can change my wagon length because you refit it", oh wait i can also do that because you use that train, and wait, i will also have another length because with that train engine and that cargo....
18:41:33 <krinn> and the lack of wednesday-compensation-unit :)
18:41:53 <planetmaker> the latter is really important!
18:41:58 <planetmaker> except in February, of course
18:43:48 <Alberth> many people here are, and try to improve it in many different ways :)
18:44:08 <Alberth> improve openttd, that is, not boredom :)
18:44:20 <krinn> not me Alberth, i'm doing nothing, i just like to ask questions, and everyone love to answer here
18:44:23 <planetmaker> often the path goes "play" "hm... that could be more interesting" "play" "improve" ;-)
18:44:52 <planetmaker> worked for me ;-)
18:45:06 <appe> though, when i say im bored with openttd, i havent even learned using nothing but a single signal system yet.
18:45:40 * andythenorth got un-bored by playing a game without YACD
18:45:48 <andythenorth> having both YACD and not-YACD is quite handy
18:46:09 * andythenorth would also like manual-YACD. (and cargodist is not that)
18:46:14 <krinn> do like me appe, build an api, let it run, it's mesmerizing
18:47:52 <Alberth> as in watch your bot build your tycoon :)
18:48:54 <Alberth> never a real AI, only a few simple test programs
18:49:14 <Alberth> mostly highly experimental :p
18:49:24 <krinn> and seen it battling against newgrf is wonder :)
18:50:28 <krinn> it's like : use doc, read specs, write the ai with many limits, just to see newgrf authors have none and do anything to bug you
18:50:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22884 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
18:50:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
18:50:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Perform stricter checks on some commands [FS#4745] (r22845)
18:50:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Harden savegame load against too many AI config settings [FS#4748] (r22843)
18:51:26 *** douknoukem has joined #openttd
18:52:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22885 /branches/1.1/ (. src/newgrf_generic.cpp):
18:52:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
18:52:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Variables 40 and 81 of callback 18 are not the same as 80 (r22867)
18:52:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Generic callbacks shall chain to the next GRF when the callback fails (r22866, r22865)
18:54:39 <appe> that's it. im learning signals.
18:55:34 <krinn> appe if you don't know signals, you never really build a network of trains no?
18:55:53 <appe> the only thing ive used signals on is circle networks
18:56:14 <appe> a big one-way circle with detours to stations.
18:56:29 * SpComb idly wonders at what point openttd.org moved from leaseweb to ovh
18:56:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22886 /branches/1.1/ (17 files in 10 dirs):
18:56:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
18:56:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Harden memory allocation (r22881, r22880, r22875)
18:56:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Validate image dimensions before loading [FS#4747] (r22878, r22877, r22874, r22873)
18:56:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Perform stricter checks on RLE compressed BMP images [FS#4746] (r22872, r22871)
18:56:48 <frosch123> SpComb: two or three months ago
18:56:54 <frosch123> there is a news item on openttd.org
18:58:21 <appe> ah, the wiki site for openttd.
18:58:27 <appe> this makes me love open source gaming.
18:59:01 <appe> as well written as a ferrari f60 is death without traction control.
18:59:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22887 /branches/1.1/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
18:59:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
18:59:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] DCxx text references via the textstack are not allowed, but caused crash [FS#4758] (r22882)
18:59:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Miscalculation of train curve speed limits (r22879)
18:59:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Report an error in the news if autoreplace/renew fails due to the engine type being no longer available [FS#4712] (r22876)
19:06:54 <Terkhen> appe: you are welcome to improve it :)
19:08:39 <planetmaker> SpComb: at precisely that point when they made the better offer ;-)
19:18:19 <krinn> considering a big AIList. What is best: iter the list with an AIController.Sleep in it to set a value or use the .Valuate and let openttd handle that ?
19:21:16 <appe> let's say i want to use lot's of trains on a single long track, both-way.
19:21:53 <planetmaker> build one track per direction
19:22:01 <appe> when a train is in the main track in the middle there, i want the meating train to move into the branched tracks.
19:22:05 <planetmaker> if you want to use 'lots' of trains
19:22:08 <appe> planetmaker: that's the most effective?
19:22:38 <SmatZ> build N tracks in both directions if you want to use lots of trains ;)
19:22:53 <planetmaker> for large 'lots' :-)
19:23:13 <appe> and for ..let's say two?
19:23:40 <planetmaker> two trains? Use sidings near each station and be done. Maybe one in the middle
19:24:22 <krinn> appe: just remember 1 train 1 platform and you'll avoid many troubles
19:25:14 <planetmaker> krinn: ehm... I consider that bad advice
19:25:34 <planetmaker> as our 2500 trains game certainly has less than 2500 station tracks
19:25:41 <krinn> it's not 1 train and 1 platform: it's plaform=number of trains
19:25:51 <planetmaker> the key knowledge is network design
19:26:10 <krinn> that's for bigger network, he is at first stage
19:26:20 <planetmaker> he asked about 'lots'...
19:26:23 <krinn> the simple rule i gave him will avoid zillions troubles he could met
19:26:49 <planetmaker> and lead him in a dead-end building direction
19:27:03 <appe> using a one-way system theoreticly makes a infinite train per station-system possible, i guess.
19:28:38 <planetmaker> oh, the private station owner :-) Hello Zuu
19:28:54 <Zuu> Hello, back in my station ;-)
19:29:04 <planetmaker> I still think you have one of the nicest host masks here ;-)
19:29:19 <planetmaker> could not fit better
19:29:26 <Zuu> If you come here you will be dissapointed that my place doesn't look like a station. :-p
19:30:40 <planetmaker> so the next r2X party is at your place, Zuu? ;-)
19:31:10 <Zuu> planetmaker: Who knows :-)
19:31:37 <appe> let me show you the one way system ive ..kind of always used-
19:32:19 <Zuu> planetmaker: Or well, I could have my private r22888 party soon :-p
19:33:47 <Ammler> what does bahnhof mean in sweden?
19:33:56 <Zuu> But I can host about 15 people in my living room and some in the kitchen if it is indoor. As for sleeping, there is a 4-star hotel nearby.
19:36:13 <frosch123> hmm, yeah, there are less students in the dev team now :p
19:36:45 <appe> Ammler: it's not a word, it's a northern european name.
19:36:45 <Zuu> And of course some can stay here, but having 15 people sleeping here would probably be quite crowdy :-p
19:37:30 <krinn> Zuu, that's what streets are made for :)
19:38:29 <krinn> yep with guys kicked out from too crowdy kitchen
19:38:44 * andythenorth ponders doing some FIRS or such
19:38:59 * fjb votes for meeting at planetmaker.
19:40:01 <Zuu> It is going to move as the municipality plan to use tha land for their new municipality building but I can't see on the website that it has been closed down already.
19:40:58 *** fjb|mobile has joined #openttd
19:41:25 <planetmaker> hehe @ fjb|mobile :-)
19:42:00 <Zuu> A meeting at planetmaker is probably more central to most people.
19:42:33 <planetmaker> that's a point which is hard to argue
19:45:45 <appe> a vandrarhem aint that hard to find around here.
19:46:10 * fjb|mobile should visit planetmaker again.
19:47:09 <planetmaker> or I should for a change visit fjb :-)
19:47:16 <planetmaker> like for a small mountain hike
19:48:05 <fjb|mobile> A hike to the Brocken.
19:49:34 <fjb|mobile> Taking pictures of the Harzquerbahn.
19:51:43 <planetmaker> hm, I think I didn't hike up the Brocken this year so far...
19:54:51 <Zuu> Is Brocken a hill that you hike up from the road?
19:55:34 <frosch123> it's the highest mountain in that area
19:55:36 <planetmaker> yeah, it's the highest mountain in the Harz mountain range
19:55:48 <frosch123> and has lots of narrow gauge stuff around it
19:55:50 <planetmaker> even visible from here when we have good weather (and sun light)
19:56:38 <Zuu> It didn't look so much on google maps but then a satelite picture isn't really good at reviling heights and nature.
19:57:10 <Zuu> Even looking on a map over mountains or going there is a large difference.
19:57:35 <Zuu> (a map with actual height curves of course)
19:57:56 <fjb|mobile> There is at least one web cam up there.
19:58:19 <planetmaker> ^ for the narrow gauge fans :-)
19:59:38 <fjb|mobile> Not for mobile devices. :(
20:00:16 <krinn> lmao how ironic from google
20:00:19 <__ln__> Zuu: southern sweden is not *that* far away from central europe anyway
20:01:04 <Zuu> __ln__: Everything is relative
20:02:11 <Zuu> But it's not like you go here in an hour or two and it costs some money. But Indeed it is closer than further up in scandinavia.
20:02:17 <__ln__> yes.. but like... i google maps routes from Amsterdam to Braunschweig and Lund, and the Lund route is less than 2 times longer.
20:03:36 <krinn> nice vid planetmaker amazing how dark and compact the smoke is when it climb
20:05:05 <Zuu> talking of mobile IRC, does anyone know a good client for old scool cell phones that run java programs? I tried two but haven't found one that is to my liking. Or does anyone know a site where you can view the logs of this channel in a mobile friendly format?
20:05:37 <Zuu> Eg. one that doesn't require horisontal scrolling.
20:05:55 <__ln__> Zuu: did you try jmIrc?
20:06:10 <Zuu> I think so. Let me check what I got on my phone.
20:06:58 <__ln__> that's also the only irc midlet that i've tried, so my experiences are a bit limited
20:07:06 <Zuu> Yea, It's that one. Quite okay, just crashed my phone when I had that one open and opera mini at the same time, but then I guess my phones memory is just too small.
20:07:48 <__ln__> Zuu: multitasking? .... such luxuries!
20:08:30 <Zuu> __ln__: Well, as my phone died, it turned out it didn't work to multitask. But at least opera mini has support for tabbed browsing.
20:09:13 <fjb|mobile> My phone is faster than the server which I used until last year.
20:09:41 <appe> irc shell servers doesnt really need to be fast at all
20:10:01 <appe> irssi aint the hardware eating kind
20:10:34 <Pinkbeast> I had a posh Nokia from the last job, which had more CPU than most computers I've owned... which did rather raise the question of why it ran like a drain, with visible screen refreshes
20:11:00 <Pinkbeast> ... especially since Symbian's a derivative of EPOC32 which ran fine on the Psion Series 5, which had less CPU than a modern washing machine
20:11:23 <fjb|mobile> The fall of Nokia.
20:12:40 <Pinkbeast> Vexing, isn't it? Especially since before that I had a 6810, which I loved.
20:13:23 <fjb|mobile> Nokia is in deep trouble.
20:14:49 * fjb|mobile wonders when Nokia will start to make rubber boots again.
20:15:27 <appe> nokia doesnt even make smartphones, right?
20:15:39 <appe> last thing ive seen didnt even have third party software support
20:16:29 <fjb|mobile> They are making smartphones.
20:16:33 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:18:14 <__ln__> Only not very smart ones by today's standards.
20:18:22 <__ln__> I'm looking forward to the N9 though.
20:18:40 <appe> i tried a N97, and it was like using an android phone without the android
20:20:11 <__ln__> Some review(s) say that the N9 would have been the iPhone killer if it had been released two years ago.
20:21:55 <__ln__> And... It is not quite in stores yet, but hopefully next month or something.
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20:39:17 <Terkhen> new meeting already? :P
20:42:10 <__ln__> Terkhen: southern sweden can't be far away from spain which is also south, right?
20:44:08 <krinn> well, closer than passing by north pole, but that must be all
20:45:59 <Zuu> Well, a quick measurement on google maps says that it is the same distance for me to the north end of sweden as to south spain. That said, it might not be true on a earth globe due to projection etc.
20:47:08 <Zuu> not really all way down to the south shore of spain, but well south of Madrid.
20:47:52 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
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20:49:16 <__ln__> Lund-Karesuando 1921km, Lund-Madrid 2544km (by road)
20:49:35 <JVassie> anyone familiar with the oftc chanserv?
20:49:44 <Mellanvarld> Zuu: globe mesurements say andorra...
20:49:48 <JVassie> how would i go about adding someone to accesslis pls?
20:50:43 <krinn> disneyland looks closer for everyone :)
20:51:46 <JVassie> forum for the game im developing
20:51:52 <JVassie> if your interested in getting involved at all :)
20:53:18 <krinn> i doubt you'll going to make that all in squirrel :)
20:54:28 <Terkhen> squirrel is the scripting language used in OpenTTD AIs
20:55:14 *** douknoukem has joined #openttd
20:55:21 <JVassie> good thing im not coding it in squirrel then ;)
20:55:39 <JVassie> Terkhen: do you know how to add someone to channel accesslist on oftc? :p
20:55:56 <Terkhen> I don't even know what is an accesslist
20:55:58 <Zuu> Oh, their website say Squirrel 3.0 is out. Duno what major changes there are.
20:56:09 <Terkhen> my irc skills are quite poor :)
20:56:34 <JVassie> Yexo? planetmaker? :p
20:56:40 <krinn> Zuu, brand new it seems
20:57:26 <Terkhen> "performance tuning" for squirrel 3.1 seems interesting
20:57:37 <planetmaker> /cs add #blah member nickname-or-similar
20:57:44 <Zuu> krinn: Have you found any release note for it?
20:57:47 <Terkhen> the changelog is hidden somewhere?
20:58:04 <planetmaker> no guarantee. I seldom use it and have to look it up everytime
20:58:09 <krinn> Zuu, not yet, i'm looking at it, just found speed/optimize improvment but for 3.1 :)
20:58:11 <planetmaker> /cs help is your friend
20:58:20 <JVassie> no help for add command
20:58:34 <JVassie> -ChanServ- HELP for add is not available.
20:58:36 <^Spike^> i guess it's /chanserv access #channel add name
20:58:44 <^Spike^> long time since i worked with an access list
20:59:07 <^Spike^> else just ask around in #oftc
20:59:21 <Terkhen> maybe it is just a changelog from the RC
20:59:25 <krinn> Terkhen, just change log from RC1
20:59:33 <Zuu> krinn: If you download the 3.0 package, it has a file called "HISTORY" that contains some sort of changelog.
20:59:41 <Terkhen> oh, I'll check that then
21:02:51 <krinn> i see ::func now must be (func)
21:02:52 <JVassie> #oftc is about as responsive as an empty channel ^Spike^ :x
21:03:33 <^Spike^> you sound like most ppl i help on a irc server somewhere else...
21:03:41 <^Spike^> must answer within 5 mins or else it sucks
21:03:53 <JVassie> i just said it was unresponsive ;)
21:04:07 <JVassie> chanserv is odd on oftc
21:04:13 <^Spike^> i bet 99% of the people wait.. evne better 100% do it on a voluntary basis and get paid 0 it's not a paid job helping people
21:04:24 <^Spike^> it's like regular chanserv to me in most channel commands
21:04:28 <^Spike^> in the most used area that is
21:04:31 <Terkhen> that story sounds familiar somehow :)
21:05:01 <^Spike^> else another hint: /chanserv help access and /chanserv help access add
21:05:13 <^Spike^> oh and help in general without those additions
21:07:30 <JVassie> planetmaker: have i missed much re. CETS btw?
21:08:22 <planetmaker> others have been quite active
21:10:42 <krinn> -fixed bug in functions with default parameters (thx ara & Yexo) :D
21:10:57 <frosch123> Zuu: krinn: yexo took a look at squirrel 3 some time ago
21:11:15 <frosch123> iirc there are multiple things which are incompatible with 2 and would break all ais or so
21:11:25 <krinn> i see, a good look it seems, that last one i've put was from history file of 3.0
21:11:28 <planetmaker> ^ that's what I recall, too
21:11:37 <frosch123> krinn: there are multiple buxfixes in squirrel 2 contributed by ottd devs :)
21:11:44 <Zuu> Yea, I don't relly count on it being implemented for OpenTTD. It was more like "oh what have they changed"
21:11:59 <krinn> looks like a bad release for me
21:12:21 <krinn> no real improvments, only fix mostly 64bits version, a 2.5 would have been ok
21:13:11 <Zuu> I also understand Yexo has put quite some time into combating with the Squrrel internals, and throwing that out just to upgrade to 3.0 doesn't sound very nice.
21:13:46 *** Kuhly_ is now known as Kuhly
21:13:47 <krinn> and some really nasty things are there : -removed 'vargv' and 'vargc' keywords
21:13:51 <frosch123> the squirrel version was updated multiple times in ottd
21:13:59 <Zuu> For a language, I think going to a new version number should really be used for cases when you need to break backward compatibility.
21:14:07 <frosch123> just that version 3 makes syntaxtical changes which would break all ais
21:14:32 <Zuu> And the 3.0 does have some changes like that. Just as frosch123 has mentioned.
21:14:56 <JVassie> whoever added random rivers to nightly is legendary :p
21:16:54 <appe> so, when's openttd going to start working with personal wages?
21:18:23 <planetmaker> appe: I don't see any game play gain in doing so
21:18:43 <appe> i just realized i used three words that wasnt even supposed to be there.
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21:23:06 * krinn is dying under heat, what a hot night
21:23:52 * Zuu dissagrees - just open the window and it gets cold :-p
21:24:21 <krinn> windows are all open, not even a single breeze
21:24:44 <Zuu> so you have to stay up all night and code on your AI?
21:25:04 <krinn> doing an hard work with trains yes
21:25:41 <Zuu> are you using any existing work on rail building or have you built your own system from g round up?
21:26:13 <frosch123> krinn: first mistake, never open windows when it is hot ouside
21:26:33 <frosch123> instead close the rolling shutters
21:26:40 <krinn> frosch123, it's seriously too hot to kept them close
21:26:48 <krinn> and it's night, i close them by day
21:26:58 <frosch123> it's hotter inside than outside?
21:27:02 <krinn> but it must be near 36C
21:27:05 <frosch123> then you should turn of the heating :p
21:27:40 <krinn> the computer doesn't help, and my old screens are good heaters too
21:28:50 <Zuu> have you tried to use any interesting concepts in the rail building?
21:29:54 <krinn> making them grow, able to use both side if need
21:30:49 <krinn> and a huge work on creating trains, i can now use any trains with any wagons, in any refit versions of them and the ai learn over time the best combo
21:31:08 <krinn> i have also put an aesthetic feature for trains/wagons combo
21:31:27 <krinn> and done my best to build nice rails (without rails that aren't connect to anywhere)
21:33:28 <Zuu> Sounds like you've spent quite a lot of time on it. ^^
21:34:06 <krinn> but for now i've just force platform kept to 1
21:34:09 <Zuu> I've not made any efforts to use rail other than thinking slightly about reusing someone else code.
21:34:47 <krinn> i must say i'm proud of the refit part
21:34:57 <__ln__> 10 degrees out, 22 degrees inside, i think i'll go to sleep
21:38:41 <pjpe> would placing a lot of buoys lower the cpu time for ship pathfinding?
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21:39:16 <Zuu> At least if you actually include the buyos in the orders ;-)
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23:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the last time i was on the Brocken must have been 1990-ish
23:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> right after it got accessible by the general public
23:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the train didn't go up there yet
23:26:41 <frosch123> hmm, 2001, also ten years ago for me :p
23:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i was near there afterwards, but not actually on the top
23:27:29 <frosch123> well, but since i am not living there for 3 years anymore,
continue to next day ⏵
