IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-09-01
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04:55:26 <Endymion_Mallorn> Hi all. My question is sort of a multi-headed one. First, what costs go into the Property Management line on the Finances window, and second, with everything in the game being based around making money, why isn't there a page in the Wiki for Finances?
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04:57:25 <Pinkbeast> In vanilla, Property Maintenance is stations and only stations.
04:57:44 <Pinkbeast> ... and because, sadly, making money is laughably easy after the initial setup
04:59:28 <Endymion_Mallorn> You say sadly. I say that 9 out of 10 games I play, I end up in the red for more than my max loan.
05:00:01 <Endymion_Mallorn> ... though I have noticed this tends to happen more painfully during games I start in 1900 with eGRVTS.
05:00:36 <Pinkbeast> Well, that's not vanilla, then... but with any set granting rail vehicles? FIRS, or vanilla industries?
05:01:21 <Endymion_Mallorn> Vanilla. I'm actually not a big fan of FIRS. I prefer using OpenGFX+ Industries, or ECS Vectors.
05:01:38 <Endymion_Mallorn> If I don't use vanilla, that is.
05:02:11 <Pinkbeast> I don't know that it's still true in 1900, but many of the early EGRVTS steam RVs are inferior to horse-drawn ones, with which it is quite possible to make money.
05:03:47 <Endymion_Mallorn> The problem with the horse-drawn is twofold: speed and capacity. And it's most definitely still true in terms of running cost and reliability. Go from $74/yr; 99% reliability to $386/58%(IIRC)? I think not
05:04:30 <Pinkbeast> Hang on, they're _faster_ than the early steam vehicles (again, might not still be true in 1900)
05:04:35 <Pinkbeast> But what about rail?
05:04:40 <Endymion_Mallorn> I mean, when I fast-forward, in 10 seconds, I see "Going To..." "Broken Down" "Going To... (same station)" "Broken Down", etc.
05:04:52 <Endymion_Mallorn> Can't wrap my head around it.
05:05:20 <Pinkbeast> You may be the one person left who plays with breakdowns on, but...
05:05:27 <Endymion_Mallorn> I've tried it in plain vanilla, even with a map that was perfect, just a dedicated Coal -> Power Station, straight line. And it still didn't turn a profit.
05:05:48 <Endymion_Mallorn> Without breakdowns, the game would be impossibly easy and boring.
05:05:53 <Pinkbeast> I mean, what rail vehicle set are you using?
05:06:28 <Pinkbeast> But equally well, the existing breakdown model is just hopeless
05:06:39 <Pinkbeast> ... er, and starting in 1900?
05:07:14 <Endymion_Mallorn> I got eGRVTS because I found that I was better with road vehicles than anything else.
05:09:05 <Endymion_Mallorn> And yeah, I'll agree, the sheer number of breakdowns makes me wonder when the breakdowns are "rolled" for and with what form of RNG.
05:10:34 <Pinkbeast> I don't know what you're doing wrong, though. I started off (years ago) with breakdowns on and coal->power rail still made respectable amounts of money.
05:11:08 <Endymion_Mallorn> Me either, that's the messed-up thing.
05:13:04 <Endymion_Mallorn> Okay. Well, mechanically speaking, do you know what the numbers are behind "property maintenance"? Because that's the one that always kills me.
05:15:03 <Pinkbeast> "Directly proportional to the number of the company's stations", says the wiki
05:16:54 <Endymion_Mallorn> You know, I realize something. I have been spoiled when it comes to numbers-heavy/math-heavy games.
05:17:26 <Endymion_Mallorn> I started with Pokemon Red... and I was one of the people with a hex editor taking cracks at it.
05:18:41 <Pinkbeast> I just started a brand new vanilla game in 1930 and laid out a single coalmine line.
05:19:09 <Endymion_Mallorn> What map size do you use?
05:21:17 <Endymion_Mallorn> My settings, on starting a new game, are in a nutshell as follows: Climate: Temperate; Mapsize: 256*256; TerraGenesis;Towns:High;Industries:High;Sea Level:Very Low;Tree Algorithm:Improved;Variety Distribution:None;Map Edges: Random;
05:22:45 <Endymion_Mallorn> Yeah, I find it's a nice, manageable size for me. It's not too big that I lose track of things, but it's not so small it feels cramped.
05:23:15 <Endymion_Mallorn> Oh. And Flat terrain type and smoothness set to "Smooth".
05:23:39 <Pinkbeast> I used 256x256 for this test. I had less flat terrain than that, but my initial line is still totally flat.
05:24:31 <Endymion_Mallorn> Now, Fast-Forward shouldn't have any effect, should it?
05:25:12 <Pinkbeast> Well, I could just FF through the rest of the year...
05:25:58 <Pinkbeast> What you describe does sound like the behaviour of a vehicle that has been unable to service for some time.
05:26:20 <Pinkbeast> First breakdown, 28 July
05:27:08 <Pinkbeast> (I have 4 trains running on this route)
05:30:20 <Pinkbeast> 19th Sep. And that's it. So 3 breakdowns from 4 trains in the year. At the end of the year I have a company value of 47K and a 50K loan. In that year I took 64K train income for 4K running costs, 1,200 property maintenance, 3K loan interest.
05:30:49 <Endymion_Mallorn> I just tried the same thing, and I ended up with a train that could not enter the station.
05:31:00 <Endymion_Mallorn> 1 track, length 3.
05:32:11 <Endymion_Mallorn> A virgin one, from before I set up the trains.
05:32:35 <Pinkbeast> An autosave from after would be more informative.
05:32:49 <Endymion_Mallorn> I don't know where my autosaves are, even
05:33:04 <Endymion_Mallorn> Oh, wait. Duh
05:37:22 <Pinkbeast> Well, the track doesn't actually connect to the coalmine station.
05:38:54 <Endymion_Mallorn> *raises eyebrow*
05:40:39 <Pinkbeast> Also especially with no cargo weight multiplier (I was using x3) you might use one or two more cargo wagons
05:41:04 <Endymion_Mallorn> Okay. I see what you are saying and I fixed it there.
05:41:35 <Pinkbeast> Now the train is immediately profitable.
05:41:48 <Endymion_Mallorn> But the station is only 3 in length. That's why the train only has the engine and two cars, so it fits on the platform.
05:42:19 <Endymion_Mallorn> And where does one find this "cargo weight multiplier" you speak of?
05:43:15 <Pinkbeast> Nothing's stopping you building a bigger station; the train only has a length of 1.5 tiles so in any case fits twice over into a 3 tile station; in "Advanced Settings", "Trains", "Weight multiplier for freight to simulate heavy trains"
05:43:42 <Pinkbeast> I observe you have breakdowns "normal", which is likely to get silly, but even with that the train is profitable.
05:44:13 <Endymion_Mallorn> How does one determine the lengh of a train in terms of station tiles? If a train with three parts is only equal to 1.5 tiles...?
05:45:03 <Pinkbeast> The length of a train is shown in a depot when it's under construction (and this one is 2.0 tiles, er, sorry)
05:45:11 <Pinkbeast> ... also all vanilla rail vehicles are 0.5 tiles
05:45:49 <Pinkbeast> But I think you do have an issue with depot placement. You've ensured that whenever the train wants servicing it has to run uphill with full cargo
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05:46:27 <Endymion_Mallorn> No, it goes past the station for the power plant. It should empty itself out before it wants service/
05:46:59 <Pinkbeast> Thanks. Now actually try it?
05:47:08 <Endymion_Mallorn> What if I just put that into orders, so that every time it gets there, it unloads and then goes to the depot?
05:47:38 <Pinkbeast> Why not just position a depot at each station, and on the same side of the station as the railway line?
05:48:23 <Pinkbeast> A train going to a depot goes directly there. It doesn't stop, even if it passes a scheduled station. The train _does_ go up the hill loaded, for all that you say it "should" not.
05:49:42 <Endymion_Mallorn> Even if I have it in the orders as follows:
05:49:42 <Endymion_Mallorn> 1. Go to Nesditch South (Wait for any Full Load); 2. Go to Nesditch Woods (Unload and leave empty); 3. Maintain at Nesditch Train Depot ?
05:50:06 <Pinkbeast> Well, that's not the case under discussion.
05:50:49 <Pinkbeast> But then it wouldn't go up the hill loaded because it would only get to order 3 after already unloading.
05:51:10 <Pinkbeast> But then the depot still would be better positioned not up a hill.
05:52:04 <Pinkbeast> Next to the entrance to Nesditch South, for example, to permit newly constructed trains to get to the coalmine asap once double track is in use.
05:52:39 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. "I see", said the blind man.
05:57:02 <Endymion_Mallorn> I get what you're saying.
05:58:19 <Endymion_Mallorn> It's just... I'm not really that good with trains. To be honest, when I played real TTD a while back, I always set it somewhere around 2000 and used airplanes.
05:58:25 <Pinkbeast> Also it's a good idea to service between unload and load because then cargo delivery times are reduced, meaning more money. But if you've kept that running, I guess you've noticed that one tank engine is more than covering property maintenance and loan repayments...
05:58:42 <Endymion_Mallorn> Why don't buses?
05:58:54 <Endymion_Mallorn> Or for that matter, coal trucks in Vanilla?
05:59:42 <Pinkbeast> Why not use them? The capacity is a bit limited. You need a _lot_ of coal trucks to make one coal train once the more powerful locomotives appear.
06:00:15 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, and by the time you reach your capacity, you're overtaken in terms of road vehicle running costs.
06:00:34 <Endymion_Mallorn> We're talking a single train, that's more like 11 coal trucks. Each with its own maintenance.
06:00:43 <Pinkbeast> Reaching your capacity _at all_ can be problematic.
06:01:33 <Pinkbeast> That mine already wants more than one train - I would guess three. Pretty soon you need a vast RV station just to keep them loading fast enough. And then the coalmine's production can increase by a multiple of something like 15 or 20 during the game...
06:01:37 <Endymion_Mallorn> So basically, if I want to have fun with buses and such, get a self-sustaining coal line going like the one we have there, and then go off and see if I can do anything in terms of profit.
06:02:19 <Pinkbeast> I would build a bit more of a coal operation. In the test game I did, I immediately built a longer double-track line and put 4 trains on it.
06:02:51 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. So demolish the current stations, put in 2 double-track stations, and go from there?
06:02:57 <Pinkbeast> But once that's done, money isn't really an issue, and that's why there's no wiki page on Finances (instead there are some describing these basic moneyspinners
06:03:22 <Pinkbeast> Demolish? No. Add platforms and tracks, but keep the existing train running - it's profitable
06:03:39 <Pinkbeast> Just make sure when you add signals it isn't on the wrong side of the line
06:04:06 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. Now we get back to something I don't really "get".
06:05:07 <Endymion_Mallorn> If it ever loads :-p
06:05:19 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. There it is.
06:06:47 <Endymion_Mallorn> Okay. So, one of the tracks goes one way, and the other goes the other way. And I set the signals, what, two or three tiles away from the stations?
06:06:53 <Pinkbeast> So. A signal on each platform, facing trains as they leave. Then crossovers. Then one-way signals to make sure trains use the right track.
06:07:49 <Pinkbeast> The signalling in that is a bit odd. I tend to put a pair of one-way signals immediately after the crossover, and then put signals at my preferred spacing all down the line to the other station
06:08:44 <Endymion_Mallorn> A one-way signal on each track as it leaves the station??
06:08:55 <Pinkbeast> In the second picture, the station at the power station is pretty much what I mean except I would have a one-way signal on the other line as well.
06:09:32 <Pinkbeast> No. Station. Ordinary PBS signal facing station. Crossover. One-way signal.
06:14:56 <Pinkbeast> The other station isn't in shot but it's got an exactly identical arrangement.
06:20:57 <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright. It's 2AM. I gotta sleep now. Thanks for the help.
06:21:04 <planetmaker> Endymion_Mallorn: sometimes it also helps to use explicit service / goto depot orders
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06:41:44 <_1009> I'm trying to get familiair with the code, so I decided to add a cheat which allows you to stop an AI (suggested by planetmaker or krinn, don't remember) - I'm wondering, what's the right way to add a new String? I see like static const StringID STR_CHEAT_CHANGE_DATE = 0x496; in strings.h, but can't figure out what value I should give my new string.
06:43:19 <planetmaker> just add the string to src/lang/english.txt
06:43:40 <planetmaker> don't add translations :-)
06:43:58 <planetmaker> they're done exclusively via our web translator interface
06:44:25 <_1009> Okay that's good. But, I think I should also add a line in strings.h, right?
06:44:52 <Pinkbeast> Isn't that all automagically generated by the build process?
06:45:35 <_1009> I... don't know. :3 I'll try!
06:46:12 <planetmaker> it is. Strings are not assigned a number anywhere manually
06:48:00 <planetmaker> you'll notice that all gui files re-compile once you touch english.txt :-)
06:48:14 <_1009> Lol, so I noticed, it takes quite some time now.
06:50:16 <_1009> Why is it that OpenTTD when compiled by hand takes so much longer to do stuff (like generating the world) than it is when downloaded?
06:50:41 <_1009> Ooh the rivers are really pretty!
06:52:10 <planetmaker> by default openttd builds some debug informations into the binary
06:52:21 <planetmaker> which are skipped for release builds
06:52:36 <_1009> Anyway, I succeeded adding my own line to the cheat widget, hurray for me =X
06:52:38 <planetmaker> ./configure --enable-static --without-assert and something else
06:52:50 <planetmaker> but don't do that when testing ;-)
06:52:53 <_1009> Oh, right. It's the assert thing. Okay, great to know.
06:52:57 <planetmaker> rather even add --enable-debug
06:53:03 <_1009> No it wasn't really a problem, but I was just wondering.
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06:57:18 <_1009> Gonna leave for work and then school, see you
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07:07:01 <George> Action 0 Feature 8 (Global Variables) Property 14 (Gender/case translation table) is not supported by TTDPatch. Should they be skipped with action 7 or 9?
07:15:17 <planetmaker> iirc they should be ignored by ttdpatch
07:16:05 <planetmaker> but according to wallyweb it still makes problems (you know that)... you'd have to ask a ttdp developer on it, I guess
07:16:46 <planetmaker> what did you do so that it worked for him?
07:17:52 <planetmaker> PS, George: typo ahead: "...does bot support..." -> "...does not support..."
07:19:15 <George> I used action 9. But I'm not sure that it is correct
07:29:21 <planetmaker> does it work, George?
07:29:28 <planetmaker> from the specs it should
07:29:39 <planetmaker> as far as I read them
07:31:44 <George> wally reports it is, but I do not know, is that correct
07:31:59 <George> I tried action 7, but it did not work
07:32:26 <George> I thought action 7 should be used :(
07:37:04 <planetmaker> action9 also works during initalization which action7 does not...
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08:48:24 <planetmaker> hello andythenorth, hello dihedral
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09:36:29 <andythenorth> I'm so glad the game put that river on the map, it was *so* useful :|
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09:37:17 <planetmaker> well what do you expect?
09:37:30 <planetmaker> rivers by default aren't navigable when sloping much
09:37:53 <planetmaker> You should use opengfx+ airports by default
09:37:57 <andythenorth> you'll all have to put me on ignore :P
09:39:18 <andythenorth> next time I just build a railroad
09:44:11 <planetmaker> ships were never meant to transport stuff from a hill top to the sea ;-)
09:45:45 <andythenorth> you should visit Wales, or the English north
09:46:41 <andythenorth> there are canals over mountain ranges
09:49:56 <planetmaker> Like the panama canal ;-)
09:50:40 <planetmaker> using different water on rivers than on sea is a good idea [TM]
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09:54:59 <appe> andythenorth: what industry is that?
09:59:07 <planetmaker> probably from a custom FIRS version :-P
09:59:22 <andythenorth> technically true
09:59:29 <Yexo> <planetmaker> [09:15:17] iirc they should be ignored by ttdpatch <- unknown properties are generally not ignored but errors
09:59:35 <andythenorth> although it's identical to the one in 0.7.0-beta1
10:00:14 <planetmaker> I meant to refer to feature 14 in that sentence. The General specs not.
10:01:32 <Yexo> which means you'll need to use action9, since action7 doesn't cause a skip during Init
10:03:49 <andythenorth> no 90' turns for ships seems like a misfeature
10:03:53 <andythenorth> how is it supposed to be useful?
10:04:03 <andythenorth> apart from causing my ships to get stuck
10:04:19 <Yexo> I agree, I don't see a use for that
10:04:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r22863 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix (r22861): AIOrder::SetOrderCondition didn't accept the new condition
10:05:38 <andythenorth> if there were diagonal canals / rivers .... maybe it would make sense
11:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there are diagonal coasts
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11:16:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth: if you build a zig-zag river boats travel it diagonally
11:50:47 <appe> ive never really understood boating.
11:51:44 <andythenorth> a train is better
11:56:02 <andythenorth> what's to understand about boating?
11:56:11 <andythenorth> you get a log, put it in the water, put stuff on it
11:56:56 <peter1138> you don't generally send them down the rapids though
11:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i would definitely have built this differently...
11:59:32 * andythenorth looks for web evidence of steam boats being hauled through rapids
11:59:41 <andythenorth> can't find a good picture though :P
12:04:59 <peter1138> andythenorth, two arguments to that
12:05:08 <peter1138> if it didn't happen then making it happen is unrealistic
12:05:31 <peter1138> if it did happen then making it happen would be too realistic
12:05:44 * andythenorth proposes new open source game
12:05:52 <andythenorth> OpenRiverboatTycoon
12:06:11 <andythenorth> a decent land generator would make some of this go away
12:06:18 <peter1138> OpenAnythingButBloodyTrainsTycoon
12:06:29 <andythenorth> mountains and flat bits on the same map? I'll buy that for $1
12:06:58 <andythenorth> I want the mississippi and the rockies :P
12:07:17 <peter1138> tgp was supposed to be the best ever!
12:07:49 <andythenorth> and you proved that it is also distinctly odd
12:08:00 <andythenorth> and variety distribution is just lies
12:08:07 <planetmaker> port terragen to openttd ;-)
12:08:14 <planetmaker> or scriptable terrain generators
12:08:33 <planetmaker> with callbacks for certain parts of map generation
12:08:56 <planetmaker> like heightmap. river gen, treegen, towngen, industrygen, objectgen, roadgen,...
12:09:22 <planetmaker> and add that option of mapgen scripts to bananas ;-)
12:10:16 <planetmaker> they could feature a similar interface like action14 for newgrfs (i.e. allowed to display a parameter window with things to configure by the user)
12:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the terragen interface _was_ prepared for more customizable algorithms
12:19:12 <alluke> there the f is danmack
12:19:46 <andythenorth> his spriting days may be over
12:20:01 <andythenorth> he lost the love for spriting
12:20:08 <planetmaker> hm... no nearby tile check for water tiles
12:20:09 <andythenorth> this seemed to happen after collaborating with me :(
12:20:40 <andythenorth> I know amount of work for canset was getting him down
12:20:49 <andythenorth> and he got married and started a job and moved house and such
12:21:02 <planetmaker> it'd let me down, too, if I didn't see it put to use anytime soon
12:21:33 <alluke> could u edit the topic of fts
12:21:39 <peter1138> what sort of greeting is "where the f is danmack"?
12:21:56 <andythenorth> but I indulged him
12:22:01 <TrueBrain> one that begs for a kick tbh :P
12:22:37 * planetmaker could answer 'yes' or 'no' if pm knew what alluke is talking about
12:22:58 <alluke> something like coder(s) needed
12:23:44 <planetmaker> what about you give it a shot yourself. It's not like it's terribly difficult anymore nowadays
12:25:00 <planetmaker> I know stupid suggestion.
12:25:57 <alluke> but i know nothing about it xD
12:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i knew nothing about coding at one point either...
12:26:26 * andythenorth knew nothing about making omelettes
12:26:32 * andythenorth knew nothing about marriage
12:26:42 * andythenorth knew nothing about multiple kinds of infinities
12:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> admitttedly, i started at about age of 10...
12:26:48 * andythenorth knew nothing about how to shave
12:26:59 * andythenorth knew nothing about how people live in Bombay
12:27:12 * andythenorth knew nothing about typing on QWERTY keyboard
12:27:19 * andythenorth knew nothing about video codecs
12:27:38 * andythenorth knew nothing about Joseph Campbell "12 steps of epic narratives"
12:27:39 <planetmaker> wait. You were not born with those capabilities?
12:27:47 <alluke> is it similar to hacking gmae files
12:29:03 <Yexo> FoOBar wrote a very good tutorial here:
12:29:19 <andythenorth> can't we just do satire afternoon instead?
12:29:33 <planetmaker> why instead? aren't we there already?
12:29:41 <TrueBrain> is it ever anything else?
12:29:52 <andythenorth> well, why stop now?
12:30:08 <TrueBrain> because they felt sad I guess
12:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll do satire if you make a virtual machine from a real one...
12:30:40 <andythenorth> maybe we could make bananas 2
12:30:45 <andythenorth> but I know nothing about that
12:30:58 <planetmaker> bananas.... there some in my shelf. I guess I'll grab one now :-)
12:31:06 <TrueBrain> pass me one pleaaaasseeee
12:31:09 <TrueBrain> I am hungry like fuck
12:31:31 <planetmaker> sure. here you go :-)
12:31:37 <planetmaker> tcp/ip transfer might be slow though
12:32:05 <planetmaker> and depends on your 3d printer, whether its cartridges are adequately filled ;-)
12:32:06 <TrueBrain> use pidgeon transport
12:32:35 <alluke> uncommented nml looks really similar to game files ive hacked
12:32:54 <TrueBrain> Yeah, we all agree'd on a single game file standard; every game is using it these days
12:33:28 <andythenorth> Game File Your Standard
12:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: in my days "game file hacking" meant taking a hex-editor
12:34:02 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: in my days "game file hacking" had no meaning. Even these days it doesn't :p
12:34:17 <andythenorth> why isn't the game coded in xml?
12:35:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: put <code><!--[CDATA ]--></code> around the text in every file, and it will be
12:35:17 <TrueBrain> I make no promises if it still works or compiles
12:35:22 <andythenorth> xml is the solution to all
12:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "xml is like {violence|alcohol|...}. if it doesn't solve your problems, you're not using enough of it yet."
12:36:55 <andythenorth> will it fix locks?
12:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> xml 32bpp extra zoom?
12:37:33 <BartHoning> Who is in charge of the 32bpp project? Does someone oversees what sprites still need to be done? What programs do they use to create the 32bpp versions?
12:38:03 <Ammler> BartHoning: ask at tt-forums?
12:38:12 <Yexo> BartHoning: nobody, no, blender/gimp/finally pngcodec
12:38:25 <andythenorth> 32bpp isn't a project, it's a car crash
12:38:35 <andythenorth> a project has a purpose
12:38:55 <andythenorth> 32bpp should be filed alongside BROS
12:39:25 <Yexo> in terms of not getting anything done, yes
12:39:32 <Yexo> although they're making very different mistakes
12:39:40 <alluke> the fts will be too hard for me
12:39:46 <andythenorth> I'd file them under 'weak-brained people need something to amuse them'
12:39:51 <andythenorth> they're side-shows
12:40:25 * andythenorth is not forgiving today
12:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> they need a BIG project manager!!
12:42:19 <Yexo> alluke: I will help with coding the finish train set under one big condition: I'm not going to do any grunt work like making sure the graphics are properly aligned or filling in properties of different vehicles
12:42:25 <andythenorth> what's the scale?
12:43:23 <Yexo> and before doing anything I want to hear a clear license for the sprites
12:53:56 <planetmaker> alluke: why will the finnish set be too hard?
12:54:01 <planetmaker> start with some simple engines
12:54:14 <planetmaker> the examples in the tutorial are quite elaborate
12:54:32 <alluke> i think i could start with tve1
12:54:37 <alluke> it wont even change livery
12:54:51 <alluke> of to driving school now
12:55:11 <planetmaker> the point is to get started. Start simple
12:55:15 <planetmaker> every set starts simple
12:55:27 <planetmaker> complications can always be added
12:55:46 <planetmaker> you'll learn them as you go
12:57:12 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> every set starts simple <-- there was quite a huge jump in CETS from one engine to all engines :p
12:57:30 <planetmaker> see. It started simple ;-)
12:57:45 <planetmaker> then things just got copied (intelligently via template)
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13:56:44 <perk11> how do I know inflation rate in openttd?
13:57:07 <perk11> and how do I calculate smth in game start prices?
13:57:31 <Yexo> start a new game and look at the price
13:57:42 <Yexo> isn't the inflation listed in the difficulty window
13:57:57 <planetmaker> or price / (1+x/100)^n
13:58:07 <planetmaker> it is listed there
13:58:31 <perk11> I only see "starting interest rate" there
13:58:59 <perk11> is it inflation rate as well?
14:00:21 <planetmaker> hm, I thought so. Might be wrong, though
14:00:33 <Yexo> "The inflation rate for costs is equal to the initial interest rate of the game, as determined by the game difficulty, and the cargo payment inflation is slightly below that (about 1 percent). "
14:00:46 <Yexo> I think, but not completely sure, that that is correct
14:03:00 <perk11> different inflation rates for costs and cargo payment makes it quite difficult to calculate something in game-start prices
14:03:27 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 327.868852459
14:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 365.25*3/600
14:04:57 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.82625
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15:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (if it's like with rails: snow/no snow without transiton)
15:42:08 <planetmaker> it's not like rails
15:42:16 <planetmaker> I can handle transitions
15:42:33 <planetmaker> but I'm considering to use one snow-density lower than the height suggests
15:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the water does not warm the shore
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15:51:20 <Belugas> it does not? you are sure?
15:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> even if the river is floating, the shores are the most likely to freeze
15:59:16 * planetmaker considers to use NML to generate the necessary code
15:59:43 <Belugas> but the water DO warm the shores, not jsut enough sometimes to stop it from freezing
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16:41:19 <Hirundo> Some (random) variety in riverbanks would be nice, probably a PITA to draw though
16:42:24 <planetmaker> that will be feasible
16:42:34 <planetmaker> though I don't have it in the immediate planning
16:42:48 <planetmaker> does NML do rivers meanwhile? I think not, right?
16:43:30 <planetmaker> I'm missing the easy math for height check in NFO which I grew so accustomed for with NML :-)
16:46:28 <Hirundo> As canals (feature 5) IIRC
16:47:16 <planetmaker> feature5, ids 5 and 3
16:47:25 <Yexo> so completely unsupported so far
16:48:11 <planetmaker> yes... it's one of those things where a lot of abstraction in principle could be used
16:48:41 <planetmaker> it works again slightly different to all other features
16:51:12 <Yexo> looks like both action0 properties can be automatically generated
16:51:21 <Yexo> so it would only need action3
16:52:42 <planetmaker> I don't see a need for the CB at all
16:54:38 <Hirundo> Indeed it's pretty pointless, I think
16:55:17 <Hirundo> offset would always be a multiple of the amount of sprites per 'block', but you might as well use a separate spriteset for that
16:55:31 <planetmaker> the graphics flag otoh is very useful and I use it. I just need permission to use the water sprite ;-)
16:56:01 <Yexo> the graphics bit could be detected automatically by the amount of sprites you provide
17:01:36 <Hirundo> Automatic detection might require stepping through all switch-blocks
17:07:07 <appe> forgot the laptop on. :(
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17:23:37 <Yexo> Hirundo: I realize that, but I think a function for stepping through all switch blocks is beneficial in other situations too
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17:40:50 <Alberth> moin Wolf01, Eddi|zuHause
17:43:11 <__ln__> except... the romans didn't know zero. my apologies.
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22864 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 6 changes by arnau
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by Snail_
17:46:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by Snail_, lorenzodv
17:46:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 63 changes by Peymanpn
17:46:09 <Alberth> neither did they knew about 1 :p
17:46:56 <Eddi|zuHause> they did know rails and steam machines, but never thought about combining them
17:47:16 <Pinkbeast> Thinking about it wouldn't have done them any good with their metallurgy
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18:01:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe the demand would have given a push to metallurgy research?
18:03:01 <__ln__> they should have set their goal for the Apollo program in the first place
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18:14:54 <Pinkbeast> Eddi> The Romans didn't think in suchlike terms. I mean... they could have built pumping engines with the industrial base they had, and then they might have had the whole Industrial Revolution, but...
18:15:22 <Pinkbeast> ... all I'm saying is that knowing about steam-powered machinery and rails in Rome doesn't, alas, let you build a practical locomotive.
18:17:46 <Pinkbeast> ... it was tried several times here, but before you can make steel rails economically, it's no good.
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18:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the metallugically problematic part is the boiler and pistons, which have to endure heat and pressure
18:20:25 <Pinkbeast> You'd think that, but you'd be wrong. In the 19th century there were several working mine locomotives - working save that they constantly broke iron rails.
18:20:53 <Pinkbeast> ... I mean, obviously, yes, the boiler and pistons do have to endure heat and pressure, but it turns out making the rails is the harder problem.
18:21:05 <__ln__> were they good with some other material that can endure heat and pressure?
18:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> in the wild west they had wooden rails with tiny iron plating
18:21:36 <Pinkbeast> ln> You can make a boiler from iron. It's heavy, but it works, and you only have to make one of it.
18:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't break any speed records on those, though...
18:22:21 <andythenorth> can't you can make a boiler from copper and staves?
18:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> copper might be available in smaller quantities than iron...
18:23:39 <Pinkbeast> Certainly Rocket's boiler tubes are copper
18:27:36 <Pinkbeast> The Romans would probably do better to build steam river tugs.
18:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember that on 11. September 2001 short after 15:00 (CEST) i went to watch Star Trek on TV, and thought "WTF? is that a movie?!?"
18:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and my brother played Transport Tycoon on my computer
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18:36:56 <__ln__> i was watching some movie and heard about the thing an hour later than most. and didn't have any sort of internet connection in my apartment at the time.
18:46:03 <__ln__> Sacro: i've seen something similar happen
18:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly am i looking at?
18:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> what i always wondered: if in a discharged lead-battery you have two plates with PbSO4, and in a charged lead-battery you have one plate of Pb and one of Pb(SO4)2, does it matter in which direction you charge it?
19:05:32 * Alberth would expect that such batterries are not entirely symmetric electrically
19:07:31 <Hirundo> IIRC there's some PbO2 in there too
19:20:32 <Yexo> just before that it splits of to another part that runs to the sea
19:21:40 <andythenorth> I like the river generator
19:21:46 <andythenorth> so many years of debate about it :P
19:21:47 <TWerkhoven> just means a second source?
19:22:02 * andythenorth points and waves at (a) docks (b) locks
19:22:10 <TWerkhoven> im more interested by the square lake at the bottom-right
19:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's a second river that starts at the bottom of the mountain and runs into the first
19:23:10 <Yexo> ah, indeed. Just the start of the first is a bit unlucky
19:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> river generation needs a "canyon" mode. if it is stuck in a sink, choose to either generate a lake or a canyon (or both, in that order). the canyon will find another tile of the same height, and level mountains along a path to make room for the river. from that point on, "normal" river generation is continued
19:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> until either the sea is reached, or the random decision results in "generate lake, but no canyone"
19:33:09 <__ln__> but eh, if Zefram Cochrane is from Alpha Centauri, not Earth, doesn't it take pretty much time to AC without warp?
19:37:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22865 /trunk/src/newgrf_generic.cpp: -Fix (r13885): The GRFFile parameter for generic callbacks is a return parameter.
19:41:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22866 /trunk/src/newgrf_generic.cpp: -Fix (r16396): Generic callbacks shall chain to the next GRF when the callback fails.
19:41:32 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: alpha centauri is the nearest star, with about 4.2 light years
19:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that is fairly reasonable to reach without light speed
19:43:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22867 /trunk/src/newgrf_generic.cpp: -Fix (r12122): Variables 40 and 81 of callback 18 are not the same as 80.
19:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like "why did nobody ever report this?" commits :)
19:45:11 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: ok, it's realistic then.
19:45:32 <Yexo> eddi: there is only one generic callback that is supported by OpenTTD, which is cb18
19:45:38 <Yexo> and even that one is only partially supported
19:45:57 <Yexo> as far as I know the only newgrf that implements that callback is ISR, and that has been working for years (even without those fixes)
19:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> r22866 reads like "if a second grf implements cb18 and returns failed, then ISR gets broken, too"
19:47:43 <frosch123> thus there is no such second grf :p
19:49:01 <Yexo> or ISR was always loaded after such a second grf, or nobody bothered to report a problem
19:49:17 <Yexo> the only "problem" that happens is that AIs will built default stations instead of NewGRF stations
19:49:37 <Yexo> and for that to work the AI has to support it too, so if it doesn't work you first have to check the AI, than the NewGRFs
19:51:43 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, how do you proprose travelling 4.2 light years away?
19:52:05 <__ln__> btw, i have all the star trek series on dvd except the animated one in my bookshelf now :/
19:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: even if you only reach 0.1*c, that means 42 years, which is possible within the lifetime of a human.
19:58:16 <frosch123> hmm are you aging faster or slower when moving fast?
19:58:55 <peter1138> relative to something, heh
19:59:33 <frosch123> there was also some gravity component to it?
20:00:39 <peter1138> hmm, fastest we've launched is 36,900mph
20:00:58 <peter1138> quite a long way of 67,000,000mph of 0.1c :)
20:04:21 <peter1138> wonder where i left my landscape routines..
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20:08:04 <appe> tip on any grf with trains that fast? :>
20:08:51 <frosch123> the "logic train" is the fastest one in ottd world afaik
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20:27:26 <appe> frosch123: i dont get it. i have the grf, i loaded it and set the parameter to ..96.
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20:27:43 <appe> but when i open a toyland map, i cant even build maglev (year 3000).
20:28:56 <frosch123> no idea, never used the grf
20:33:03 <frosch123> yeah. looks like it does not work in toyland
20:33:07 <frosch123> only in the other climates
20:34:32 <TrueBrain> brickland never continues development
20:34:40 <appe> i dont find any new train?
20:35:00 <frosch123> it works in the other three climates
20:35:08 <frosch123> it is a maglev engine available from year 0
20:35:35 <frosch123> just set it to 60000 km/h
20:35:48 <frosch123> then you can sometimes spot the train :p
20:36:10 <frosch123> in main menu open the grf configuration, select the grf, click configure parameters
20:36:23 <frosch123> select "1 parameter" and set that one to the speed you want
20:36:27 <Ammler> 06 07 // climate availability
20:36:27 <frosch123> max is likely 65535
20:37:04 <Ammler> no clue why that is set
20:38:35 <appe> it has the worst acceleration in history
20:39:33 <Ammler> logic train has instant acceleration, afaik at least fasted possible
20:39:55 <frosch123> Ammler: maybe it has no te
20:39:58 <frosch123> so you cannot attach anything
20:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you need high TE, high power and low air resistance
20:40:30 <Ammler> isn't TE unnecessary on maglev?
20:40:44 <appe> Ammler: uhm, when i set the parameter, i get the gator train with the set speed
20:40:50 <frosch123> yeah, when you attach wagons it takes quite some time :p
20:41:16 <Ammler> never tested with waggons...
20:41:31 <frosch123> yeah, too few power
20:41:41 <Ammler> frosch123: max possible?
20:41:43 <frosch123> it is stuck at 11886 km/h
20:42:00 <TheHog> Yexo: there? i guess i fixed all issues we talked about (2-way feeder) ... by only using my new logic when the current order of a vehicle in a station is 'transfer && !no_load'
20:42:08 <frosch123> Ammler: i attached 5 empty wagons
20:42:14 <frosch123> so the train has a weigt of 96 t
20:43:23 <frosch123> hmm, with 2 wagons (39t) it is the same
20:44:31 <Ammler> well, I guess the acceleration behavoior changed since the last time I played with that train :-)
20:44:34 <frosch123> might be some rounding problem
20:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> without friction, you have a don't-care on the mass for the maximum reachable speed
20:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> P/v = F_drag + F_frict
20:45:10 <frosch123> with no wagons (1t) it reaches 48104, while 50292 is max
20:45:35 <Yexo> TheHog: great :). Now you can convince another dev to include it
20:46:12 <TheHog> yexo: first i need your convidence :) do you think that's a valid way?
20:46:21 <TheHog> i'm now running some test games
20:46:42 <TheHog> a) the trick still works
20:47:11 <Yexo> I think it's better than before, but impossible to make it work in every case without a cargo destinations patch
20:47:14 <TheHog> b) the A-B-C coal->power plant, C drops, D new power plant works also
20:47:24 <Yexo> hence personally I'd prefer to wait for that and not implement a stop-gap now
20:48:11 <TheHog> yeah but I think cargodst will make openttd so much different than the original.. it would almost be openttd 2.0 :)
20:48:20 <Yexo> the "trick" can be implemented using all kinds of orders btw, also with "transfer && !load" orders
20:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the typical counter-example is 3 airports ABC with aircraft on each route, and bus feeders from each airport to the respective city. how do you prevent cargo going in circles on the aircraft, never reaching the city?
20:49:08 <TheHog> Eddi|zuHause: my patch does that.. let me explain
20:49:32 <TheHog> it check if the loading vehicle has the order 'transfer and pickup'
20:49:32 <Yexo> TheHog: are you sure? your patch works for the bus part, but won't the aircraft still take the passengers?
20:50:05 <TheHog> and then checks if the loading cargo is not already picked up at the same route of the vehicle
20:50:27 <TheHog> Yexo: still using tranfers_at_xy but using a validation in front of it.. let me post a patch.. w8
20:50:54 <TheHog> still have to do some sanity checking.. but I guess i'm almost there
20:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> TheHog: even if it catches that. then, what about 4 airports?
20:52:25 <TheHog> same.. because it is the same route
20:52:43 <Yexo> I'd really like to see that patch, as I don't believe it right now
20:52:47 <TheHog> it will not pickup cargo that is picked up somewhere on the same route
20:53:07 <Yexo> either it doesn't work or it uses insane amounts of memory
20:53:45 <TheHog> let me upload it to the bugtracker w8
20:56:54 <Yexo> TheHog: 3 airports, A <> B, B <> C, C <> A. All aircraft fly between two of those airports with transfer & load orders on both sides
20:57:08 <TheHog> btw, got a small warning while compile current trunk on tree_gui.cpp (not my mod)
20:57:12 <Yexo> at every airport there is a but that loads in the city center, transfers and the airport and takes passengers back to the city
20:57:49 <Yexo> which os/compiler are you using and can you copy/paste that warning?
20:58:17 <TheHog> c++ 2010 .. < signed/unsigned warning
20:58:27 <TheHog> - for (uint i = this->base; i < this->base + this->count; i++) {
20:58:27 <TheHog> + for (uint16 i = this->base; i < this->base + this->count; i++) {
20:58:37 <Yexo> passengers coming from A and transferring at B can be picked up by an aircraft going B <> C, than at C pickup up by an aircraft going C <> A, at A by aircraft going A <> B etc.
21:00:26 <TheHog> Yexo: true.. that still makes passengers go round circles
21:01:19 <TheHog> you could explain that by 'breaking the chain would break the feeder logic'
21:01:37 <TheHog> no that is not correct.. w8 :)
21:03:06 <TheHog> but that would not really be a big problem.. the planes load balance the passengers on those three airports so that busses can keep up
21:04:37 <TheHog> eventually the busses will take the passengers out of the airports
21:06:17 <Yexo> passengers start at A, are taken to B (that's ok), than to C (you could argue still ok), but if at that point they're taken back to A something is wrong
21:06:28 <Yexo> as they can't go to the city A
21:07:18 <TheHog> but that can easily be fixed by another check
21:07:42 <TheHog> check with cp->source before picking up
21:08:02 <TheHog> to make sure the bus at A does not pick up the passengers at the airport A
21:08:52 <TheHog> but,.. that eventually will break 4-feeder-stage
21:09:41 <Yexo> as I said before: I don't think you can solve the issue without some destinations patch
21:09:43 <TheHog> say for example bus->train->airport (circle) -> same train -> bus does not pick the passengers from trainstation and train also
21:09:52 * Zuu is happy to see that the RoadAI highly utilizse the SuperLib library.
21:10:16 <TheHog> Yexo: indeed but I think this is a much asked improvement of the current logic
21:10:21 <Yexo> it's been on my TODO list for a very long time to check SuperLib and use in in AdmiralAI
21:10:25 <Zuu> It uses SuperLib for station building, road building, logging, setting orders, the helpers and possible something more. :-)
21:10:26 <Yexo> but I haven't worked on it for a long time
21:11:15 <Zuu> It even uses a function that implements PAXLink-ish engine selection. :-)
21:11:25 <TheHog> and then again,.. no one uses transfer && load now because it makes no sense currently
21:11:51 <Yexo> TheHog: perhaps, my stand on it hasn't changed though: I think it makes it even more unclear how orders work exactly, so for that reason I won't commit it. I'm not really against it, so if you can convince another dev to commit it, fine.
21:13:10 <Zuu> RoadAI has just 696 lines of code.
21:13:23 <TheHog> I stumbled uppon this line today 'Am I correct or did I miss anything? I play OpenTTD just for a couple of weeks, may be I am totally wrong. This problem stopped my enthusiasm a bit since I feel it should be possible to solve this problem in a nice way'
21:14:31 <TheHog> who are the others devs again?
21:15:19 <TheHog> planetmaker: did you copy the last half hour of logs?
21:15:41 <Yexo> TheHog: I've read that topic before, as you see Alberth seems to agree with my standpoint
21:15:57 <Yexo> "Since your algorithm does not cover such cases, the only way out is to throw your algorithm away, and design and implement one that really works. I believe time is better spent by designing a proper generic solution in the first place."
21:16:54 <TheHog> yeah ok that's the final conclusion but it started with 'losing enthusiasm'.. i guess a lot of people stop at that point and don't even bother
21:16:59 <Yexo> and if you want an answer from pm for example, it's better to ask your question directly. There are publicly available logs of this channel, so he can always read back
21:19:42 <TheHog> things a man must do to make the world a better place :)
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