IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-08-31
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06:35:36 <TheHog> Hi there. I released a patch yesterday for the feature-request/bug at Could someone test the patch and maybe insert it at mainstream?
06:36:50 <TheHog> The patch makes feeding much better. It checks if cargo that is being loaded isn't being transfered back to a station it has been pickuped earlier.
06:38:38 <TheHog> for a quick try I have release a win32 and x64 .exe at:
07:02:01 <Yexo> TheHog: your patch doesn't apply cleanly to r22858
07:02:36 <dihedral> greetings
07:05:17 <TheHog> Yexo: on top of 1.1.2
07:05:40 <Yexo> TheHog: but new patches are only accepted against trunk (=last svn revision)
07:05:46 <pjpe> yeah don't do that
07:05:48 <TheHog> ah ok fine
07:06:08 <TheHog> I will update the patch later this day then
07:06:09 <Yexo> in case of bug fixes they get backported to the stable branch later
07:06:27 <TheHog> didn't knew that
07:06:31 <Yexo> no problem
07:06:49 <Yexo> as for your request to close the task in the bug tracker: the task will be closed as soon as a fix is applied to trunk
07:07:02 <TheHog> ok great
07:07:03 <Yexo> if I were to close it because a patch was available that patch would be forgotten
07:11:28 <Terkhen> good morning
07:16:23 <planetmaker> moin
07:17:44 <Terkhen> hi planetmaker
07:17:54 <Yexo> good morning :)
07:18:18 <Terkhen> hi :P
07:23:39 <planetmaker> hello Terkhen, hello Yexo :-)
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08:52:32 <TheHog> Yexo: I managed to update the patch to fit in r22858:
08:52:44 <TheHog> could you have a try again?
08:53:46 <Yexo> sure
08:53:56 <Yexo> it's common to make patches against trunk/, not against trunk/src/
08:54:17 <Yexo> doesn't matter now, but it'd make it easier for next time :)
08:54:23 <TheHog> ok for next time then :)
08:58:07 <planetmaker> TheHog: your patch inserts a number of pointless new lines
08:58:46 <planetmaker> one even being a separate hunk
08:59:24 <TheHog> hmm ok.. sorry for that
08:59:36 <planetmaker> + bool ContainsStation(StationID station) const; <-- uses space instead of tab for indentation
08:59:57 <TheHog> long time I have done this much programming :)
08:59:59 <planetmaker> actually... you use a lot of space for indentation
09:00:04 <planetmaker> we indent with tabs
09:00:22 <TheHog> is visual c++ the cause?
09:01:17 <planetmaker> it would do it consistently ;-)
09:02:28 <TheHog> I'll check that next time :)
09:02:30 <Yexo> TheHog: a trick often used to keep ratings up is to have one truck both loading and unloading at the same station
09:02:36 <Yexo> your patch breaks that behavior
09:03:21 <TheHog> why?
09:03:47 <Yexo> because the cargo is not unloaded anymore
09:03:57 <Yexo> since it's one station, the origin is the same as the destination
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09:04:30 <Yexo> cp->loaded_at_xy != 0 && GetStationIndex(cp->loaded_at_xy) == data <- this check is not correct
09:04:36 <TheHog> ah ok.. you mean when fe. loading passengers from a station and then unload the same passengers there again?
09:04:39 <pjpe> that doesn't seem like much of a trick
09:04:40 <Yexo> since stations can be moved you can't rely on the original tile
09:04:49 <Yexo> TheHog: yes, exactly
09:05:10 <TheHog> hmm that would be a trick indeed :)
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09:05:50 <TheHog> Yexo: i could insert a loaded_at_id .. would that be better you think?
09:06:00 <__ln__>
09:06:16 <planetmaker> going by stationID is better than station_xy
09:07:00 <TheHog> planetmaker: ok then... I can expand the structure of the cargopacket with loaded_at_id then
09:07:02 <Yexo> inserting more data in cargopackets might not be a good idea
09:07:07 <TheHog> owh?
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09:07:13 <Yexo> there are _a lot_ of cargopackets in big games
09:07:18 <TheHog> true
09:07:34 <planetmaker> quite
09:07:39 <Terkhen> any change to cargopackets should be profiled thoroughly :)
09:08:02 <TheHog> or remove loaded_at_xy and replace it with ID, and then do the feeder-cash-thing calculating with the getlocation from id?
09:08:27 <planetmaker> another approach for transfer + load + avoid loading same cargo packets could be to (temporarily) store the cargopacket IDs
09:08:45 <TheHog> that will break proper calculating of the cash if the station is moved meanwhile.. but that does not seem to be a great problem?
09:09:27 <TheHog> loaded_at_xy is only used in feeding situations (transfers)
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09:13:37 <TheHog> planetmaker: that would require all vehicle in same feeding-stage to remember the cargopacket id's
09:13:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22859 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: Add missing : in slope steepness strings. (monoid)
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09:14:19 <TheHog> you don't want another bus to pick up passengers at for example an airport which a bus before him just dropped of at the airport
09:14:29 <planetmaker> TheHog: much less memory impact than changing cargo packets
09:14:46 <TheHog> true
09:14:53 <planetmaker> but yes, what you describe might happen
09:15:09 <TheHog> let me try to remove loaded_at_xy and replace it with loaded_at_id
09:15:29 <TheHog> will get back with that later this day :)
09:15:31 <Yexo> TheHog: I've also seen the "trick" I mentioned earlier used with two stations
09:15:54 <Yexo> the main problem being: however you implement this, you'll break the old "valid" use case
09:16:02 <TheHog> true
09:16:26 <TheHog> it could be a option which could be set in the settings menu?
09:16:32 <Yexo> so since it cannot be implemented properly, I'm not sure if it should be implemented at all before cargod*st
09:16:46 <planetmaker> that's the big question :-)
09:17:11 <TheHog> I'm sure a lot of people would like to see this changed.. feeders are not working properly without it
09:17:17 <Yexo> with cargod*st we'd get the fix for free, and without we'll always have complains no matter the current behavior or when including a fix
09:17:28 <Yexo> feeders are working properly, but not as some people want
09:17:42 <Yexo> the only thing that doesn't work is two-way feeders
09:17:52 <TheHog> or multiple :)
09:17:53 <Yexo> or feeding a cargo and loading from that station at the same time
09:18:22 <Yexo> basically whenever you use "transfer cargo" you should also use "no loading" to make it work properly
09:19:43 <TheHog> but do you agree on making it a (by default disabled?) option
09:19:44 <TheHog> ?
09:20:53 <Yexo> I'm not convinced we need (yet another) option for it
09:21:01 <planetmaker> "transfer and leave empty" is the default anyway
09:21:22 <Yexo> I'm not totally against it, but I won't commit a patch for it
09:23:05 <TheHog> that would disappoint me
09:23:26 <TheHog> the guys whom I told I have the patch for it started using openttd again
09:24:10 <Yexo> TheHog: you might be able to convince planetmaker or Terkhen of the need for it
09:25:03 <TheHog> and then again, the trick you mention is using a bug in my perspective
09:26:06 <Terkhen> I have not been paying much attention, let me reread everything
09:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> one person's bug is another person's feature
09:26:45 <Terkhen> I'm lacking context, is there a flyspray task for this?
09:26:48 <TheHog> Terkhen: small recap, I made a patch to be able to create multiple-hop-feeding
09:27:01 <planetmaker> a wisdom easily learnt in the OpenTTD domain, Eddi|zuHause :-)
09:27:02 <TheHog>
09:27:19 <Yexo> TheHog: now consider this: you have stations A, B and C. Coal is collected from multiple mines and send to A or B (whichever is closest). All coal from A is transfered to B. From B it's send to the final destination C
09:27:31 <planetmaker> multi-hop works already. Just not two-way
09:27:40 <Yexo> ... not finished yet
09:28:11 <Yexo> the powerplant at C closes down, you notice this, build a new station D at another power plant (close to A). You change the trans between A and B to transfer from B to A and build new trains to transport from A to the new final destination D
09:28:13 <Terkhen> but that's what YACD/cargodist do
09:28:28 <Yexo> the cargo that had piled up at B (because C closed down) will now not be transported back to A
09:28:46 <Terkhen> any solution you do for this issue will need to take into account a future destination patch
09:28:51 <Yexo> which is what I would consider a bug
09:28:57 <planetmaker> hm... good (or bad) example, Yexo :-)
09:29:03 <Yexo> so introducing your "fix" introduces a new "bug"
09:29:47 <Yexo> Terkhen: with any destinations patch applied the problem is gone
09:30:15 <Terkhen> exactly
09:30:32 <Terkhen> we want a destination patch too, and it would solve this issue too
09:30:42 <Terkhen> if we add a different fix for this issue, that will complicate future destination patches
09:30:48 <TheHog> Yexo: true.. you would need a vehicle not having A in the order list .. let me think..
09:32:09 <Yexo> TheHog: it can be worked around by transfering the goods from B to C first, than from C directly to A (if there was track between C and A)
09:32:22 <Yexo> or from B to D directly (again, if there is track between B and D)
09:32:32 <TheHog> yep but I agree that would confuse users also
09:32:55 <Yexo> and it's not even easily possible if the connection between A and B was by ship while the rest was by train
09:33:21 <planetmaker> not being able to pickup cargo sometimes IMHO is worse than the clear statement "transfer doesn't work two-ways"
09:33:47 <planetmaker> thus IMHO yexo's argument with the changed destination and route is somewhat a killer argument
09:34:05 <planetmaker> it's a bug which sometimes is not obvious at all why it would appear
09:34:09 <TheHog> Yexo: a quick thinking,.. would it be better to 'timeout' the cargo in my case? if it is there for couple of days, then let it be able to pick up again?
09:34:14 <planetmaker> given a cargo might transfer over 5 or 6 stations
09:35:04 <Yexo> TheHog: yes, that'd solve the problem, but it'd be impossible to communicate that to the average user
09:35:12 <TheHog> i agree
09:35:41 <TheHog> but still i'm sure a lot of people would like to see 2-way feeders without cargodst
09:36:11 <TheHog> let me rethink later this day,.. have to do some work again :)
09:36:31 <TheHog> l8rs guys
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10:39:57 <peter1139> 1139 oclock!
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10:51:41 <fjb> Hmmm, 1138 opeter...
10:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> so... i put a HD on an IDE port, and the DVD disappeared...
10:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> probably need to check jumpers/cables
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11:01:15 <fjb> Every slave needs a Master. And two Masters have a conflict because they try to dominate each other. IDE drives are so simple to understand.
11:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: modern systems work with cable select
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11:02:27 <fjb> Even then you have a Master and a slave. And I have seen cableselect fail. So set the jumpers and you are sure which is which.
11:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever... the DVD is not critical ;)
11:04:04 <fjb> Noise on the wire can be critical...
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11:26:51 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a .TIB file?
11:29:10 <fjb> Its something that acronis creates.
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13:01:04 <Belugas> hi
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13:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: so i suppose that is something proprietary that i can't possibly open without paying for the program...
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15:26:36 <LordAro> good morrow
15:33:25 <planetmaker> hello
15:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i wish cp had some kind of progress report
15:38:00 <Yexo> cp?
15:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause> cp, as in copy.
15:38:45 <Yexo> ah
15:39:38 <__ln__> damn, i would have wanted to take a beginners' course on dutch, but my university doesn't offer any dutch anymore.
15:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> just take english and german, and interpolate the intermediate :p
15:40:38 <Yexo> lol
15:40:51 <Yexo> you're better of just talking english :p
15:41:17 <__ln__> dat iist was ik maache.
15:41:42 <Yexo> s/maache/doe/
15:42:07 <__ln__> so english word in that case :)
15:42:13 <Yexo> yep
15:42:21 <Yexo> and s/iist/is/ and the rest is correct
15:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that's interesting, because germans try to avoid the word "tun"
15:48:03 <TrueBrain> <- OpenTTD Gource Visualisation :D
15:48:27 <Eddi|zuHause> a new one?
15:49:19 <TrueBrain> I know of no old one, so no
15:52:20 <TheHog> Yexo: i'm now looking at the patch again,... however the trick you mentioned is already being blocked in the trunk as I understand
15:52:59 <TheHog> if (cp->source == data && mta == MTA_FINAL_DELIVERY) { /* Skip cargo that originated from this station. */++it; continue; }
15:54:03 <TheHog> or don't I understand the trick correctly?
15:55:12 <Yexo> mta == MTA_FINAL_DELIVERY <- it's not final delivery, it's using transfer orders
15:55:43 <LordAro> Truebrain: old version:
15:55:57 <LordAro> this vid looks pretty epic too though :)
15:56:00 <TheHog> Yexo: could you explain that?
15:56:49 <TheHog> using transfer orders would never deliver the cargo so why would that raise the ratings?
15:56:50 <TrueBrain> LordAro: you linking the right topic?
15:57:04 <TrueBrain> "BRits Breakthrough Artist"
15:57:23 <Yexo> TheHog: see the road vehicle in this test game:
15:57:39 <Yexo> and see for how the station rating works
15:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: are you clicking on the right link?
15:57:44 <TheHog> ok brb
15:58:04 <Yexo> it's not dependent on delivery at all, just regular pickup
15:58:04 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: doubt it ....
15:58:38 <LordAro> Truebrain: link in first post *by 0rudge ;) )
15:58:45 <TheHog> Yexo: so you just tranfers cargo back and forward?
15:58:55 <Yexo> yes
15:58:55 <TrueBrain> but I guess you refer to DVs video, which is _really_ old, and should not be considered in a question: a new one?
15:58:56 <TrueBrain> :P
15:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> just admit that you have no memory :p
15:59:24 <TheHog> hmm can't open the save game with 1.1.2 :) let me compile the trunk first
15:59:35 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I refuse to state known facts
16:00:00 <Yexo> ^^ after saying that a few times you can't say it anymore
16:03:00 <TrueBrain> something to worry about when that happens :D
16:03:00 <LordAro> Truebrain: you even have 2nd post! ;)
16:03:32 <LordAro> oh, and your vid needs a soundtrack :)
16:03:32 <TrueBrain> hmm, what to do about youtube not liking the first few seconds ...
16:04:00 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like missing I-frame in the beginning
16:04:00 <LordAro> ...and i need a computer that'll be able to render in 720p, so i can watch it properly..
16:04:35 <TheHog> Yexo: can't find the grf that is used in the game
16:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and the people making commits jump around quite fast, so you can hardly recognize their names as they fly by
16:05:02 <Yexo> sorry, you have to compile that yourself too :p
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16:05:05 <Yexo> let me create another savegame
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16:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: the old video had annotations like current release or major feature being worked on at that time
16:06:21 <TheHog> but basically it is just transfering cargo back and forward to up the rating?
16:06:22 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: good for him :P
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16:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> just saying, there's room for improval :)
16:08:59 <Yexo> TheHog: new savegame, same link
16:09:04 <TheHog> thnx
16:09:11 <TrueBrain> soget to work Eddi|zuHause :P
16:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i am working-ish...
16:09:44 <TrueBrain> I am rendering a 1080 video :P
16:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i have 6 cores, so i might be able to render that in realtime :)
16:10:42 <TrueBrain> I can :)
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16:11:13 <TheHog> Yexo: ic
16:11:19 <Eddi|zuHause> my bandwidth converges towards 0 though... i'm still not done downloading the youtube video
16:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> [download] 63.1% of 42.35M at 20.35k/s ETA 13:06
16:12:01 <TrueBrain> my version is 700MiB :P
16:12:47 <TheHog> Yexo: and that raises the station rating? just by the rule of 'Days since last cargo pickup' i guess?
16:12:57 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and I uploaded that faster than you are downloading that :P
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16:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that is absolutely no surprise...
16:13:29 <TheHog> Yexo: to make sure the station is visited often
16:13:33 <Yexo> exactly
16:13:43 <TheHog> ok i understand..
16:13:56 <TheHog> let me see if I can work around this trick :)
16:14:02 <Yexo> the more proper way is to always have a new train loading, but when trains are very expensive this helps
16:14:28 <TheHog> but I still agree that this is somewhat misusing a bug :)
16:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> in cargod*st i use this trick to keep rating up at transfer stations
16:14:36 <TheHog> in the real world this would be very stupid :)
16:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the proper solution would be someone using callback 145 to never let the rating drop below 50%
16:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody has figured out how to use that callback yet...
16:15:54 <TheHog> callback?
16:16:18 <TheHog> or are you just fucking with me right now :)
16:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause>
16:18:22 <TheHog> hmm puzzled
16:20:52 <TheHog> ok ic... not needed for my feeding patch thingy
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16:50:49 <andythenorth> Terkhen: pcx -> png conversion is really trivial
16:50:54 <andythenorth> I'll do it sometime soon
16:51:04 <andythenorth> probably not before 0.7.0 release though as it could introduce bugs
16:51:58 <planetmaker> in principle one could just convert pcx->png
16:52:16 <planetmaker> then it's independent of source file changes
16:54:33 <andythenorth> that's what I'd do
16:54:46 <andythenorth> it's a simple batch convert using photoshop or other app
16:54:54 <andythenorth> then find+replace in source
16:55:13 <andythenorth> I'll ticket it for future release
16:55:37 <andythenorth> oh
16:55:40 <andythenorth> it's ticketed :)
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16:58:54 <planetmaker> well... IMHO it could be done now, if it's a simple batch job for you
16:59:00 <planetmaker> it'd help some people building it
16:59:10 <planetmaker> and make a translator happy ;-)
16:59:47 <andythenorth> ok maybe I'll do it
16:59:51 <andythenorth> not likely tonight
17:00:00 <Terkhen> trivial but tedious :)
17:00:20 <andythenorth> not really
17:00:22 <andythenorth> :)
17:00:46 <andythenorth> prior to png support, my workflow was psd -> export png -> batch convert to png
17:00:47 <planetmaker> Terkhen: both can be batched
17:00:49 <andythenorth> so hardly any effort
17:01:12 <planetmaker> sed -i.bak "s/\.pcx/.png/ sprites/nml/industries/*.pnml sprites/nml/*.pnml
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17:01:51 <andythenorth> I'll do it now
17:01:57 <planetmaker> and with the proper parameters it could also be done by gimp script, irfanview script or imagemagic script
17:06:59 <andythenorth> oh
17:07:04 <andythenorth> I guess nml updated :P
17:08:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm pushing the pngs now, but I have to go - I haven't done F+R on the code
17:08:36 <andythenorth>
17:08:47 <andythenorth> possibly there might be palette issues, unlikely, but possible
17:09:07 <andythenorth> I'll bbl
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17:09:45 <TrueBrain> and I am rendering a better 1080p movie :D
17:09:46 <TrueBrain> hihi
17:09:57 <LordAro> Truebrain: still needs a soundtrack :P
17:13:41 <TrueBrain> ugh, sound is overrated
17:13:58 <LordAro> don't like watching videos in silence
17:14:25 <TrueBrain> I rarely have audio routed from firefox to my audio system :P
17:14:51 <TrueBrain> but first I am going to finish rendering this new version, as it seems to solve the stupid issue at the start
17:14:57 <TrueBrain> sadly ... I just hit Jan 2007 :D
17:17:07 <LordAro> :)
17:17:18 <peter1138> brrr
17:17:22 <TrueBrain> for some reason I am only rendering at 7 fps :P
17:17:32 <peter1138> can't reach my * box apparently :S
17:19:38 <TrueBrain> it is pretty kewl, you see a branch being created and a developer running towards it , while the trunk keeps getting a high rate of changes :P
17:20:07 <TrueBrain> and you can see branch syncs very nicely :D
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17:22:18 <TrueBrain> especially the NoAI branch and merge is very clear :)
17:26:24 *** Zuu has joined #openttd
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17:31:05 <TrueBrain> owh, just 500 MiB. Pompiedom
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17:34:16 <LordAro> ..loving linux reboot times :)
17:34:54 <TrueBrain> linux? reboot? wuth?
17:35:12 <LordAro> flash crashed completely..., i had to
17:35:19 <LordAro> + i was runnign out of memory
17:35:24 <TrueBrain> kills some apps!
17:35:28 <LordAro> stupid slow computer
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17:45:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22860 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
17:45:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
17:45:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:45:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: serbian - 3 changes by etran
17:48:02 <TrueBrain> new upload: (yes Eddi|zuHause, this time it is a new one :p)
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17:49:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: unless you're working on it - I can now finish the png conversion ;)
17:52:03 <Terkhen> that video looks nice :P
17:52:18 * Terkhen wonders what music to play while watching it
17:52:52 * TrueBrain waits for 720 and 1080 to show up ...
17:53:20 <andythenorth> can anyone test FIRS build on windows (now that pcx is removed)
17:53:37 <Terkhen> I'll wait too, I can barely see the names right now :P
17:53:53 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I can't, I ended up installing everything on windows too
17:54:16 <__ln__> Terkhen: how about:
17:54:18 <planetmaker> I'm not working on anything on FIRS right now
17:54:34 * Terkhen stopped using spotify
17:56:35 <andythenorth> all pcx now gone from FIRS
17:56:44 <Terkhen> nice :)
17:57:30 <__ln__> Terkhen: what's wrong with spotify?
17:57:56 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: yeah, I guess I could boost the font-size a bit :p
17:58:00 <TrueBrain> meh; not going to re-render :p
17:58:43 <LordAro> Truebrain: note it down for next time then :P
17:58:50 <Terkhen> __ln__: I prefer to expend my not very abundant cash somewhere else
17:59:15 <Terkhen> TrueBrain: don't bother for this version, I think it will look better with 1080 :)
17:59:19 <TrueBrain> right ,720 and 1080 available ..
17:59:23 <andythenorth> what is better than spotifiifyf for spending money on?
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17:59:33 <peter1138> ladies
17:59:52 <Terkhen> andythenorth: games :P
18:00:04 <andythenorth> my game is free :P
18:00:07 <Terkhen> yes, I can see names now with 1080
18:01:52 <Terkhen> signde... I never heard that name before
18:02:12 <TrueBrain> long long long ago
18:02:14 <TrueBrain> long long long
18:02:15 <TrueBrain> long
18:02:23 <peter1138> :)
18:02:24 <TrueBrain> wrote the console
18:02:28 <Terkhen> and for a short time it seems
18:02:30 <Terkhen> oh :)
18:02:39 * andythenorth wonders where the commits for roadtypes are in that visualisation :(
18:03:01 <TrueBrain> the most obvious visuals are MiniIN and NoAI branch
18:03:31 * andythenorth observes a law of nature: the more you prod a peter1138, the less code they produce :P
18:03:52 <Terkhen> future version of the video created in 2030
18:04:07 <frosch123> that video shows that branches are no longer state of the art :)
18:04:11 <Terkhen> with virtual reality graphics and stuff
18:05:09 <TrueBrain> feel free to post it on the forums or what-ever :P
18:05:51 <andythenorth> it seems weird to see these communist trains running in the US of A:
18:09:12 <__ln__> is that the station building on the left?
18:09:30 *** |Jeroen| has quit IRC
18:09:56 <andythenorth> probly
18:11:31 <Terkhen> posted :P
18:15:40 <Zuu> Yexo: Have you started on the patch?
18:16:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: you were going to teach me how to play with rivers?
18:28:52 <frosch123> hmm, we need flat docks
18:30:21 <V453000> hehe :)
18:30:41 <frosch123> docks and depots block the whole river, i have to build canals for them
18:31:32 <V453000> I guess wider rivers would be a pain to make eh
18:32:07 <frosch123> i think they would look weird for a start
18:32:20 <V453000> well they could grow in size :)
18:36:19 <pjpe> are rivers always only one tile wide
18:37:05 <V453000> yes
18:37:26 <pjpe> i think that makes it look kinda weird
18:37:37 <pjpe> that they're always one tile wide and on flat land
18:37:40 <peter1138> eh?
18:37:41 <pjpe> never sunk a bit
18:38:09 <peter1138> at least one tile wide
18:38:14 <Belugas> sunk?
18:38:17 * Zuu got lucky that hg gives better line endings than svn, but still gives some changes that has to be manually reverted.
18:38:27 <peter1138> but a tile is the base unit, so, that makes sense
18:39:19 <pjpe>
18:39:23 <pjpe> like the water on the left
18:40:58 <Zuu> Maybe a commit of ai_instance.cpp should be made that only "updates" the file so it looks like how it does when it is auto-generated.
18:42:02 <frosch123> <- i need to build canals and hills for docks and depots :p
18:42:48 <Belugas> a river does not automatically creates a valley where it can flow. erosion is a long process. plus... why would you want to have it "sunken" ? ho.. no... don't tell me, please... don't wanna know actually...
18:43:02 <__ln__> slopes in rivers are barely noticeable
18:43:37 <pjpe> because the river on the left looks natural
18:43:44 <pjpe> the one the game generates is kinda staticy
18:44:07 <frosch123> <- are they?
18:44:10 <Belugas> the game gfenereates new rivers :)
18:44:54 <frosch123> we should replace the river slopes with waterfalls, so it becomes more obvious they are not traversable
18:46:16 <Belugas> agreed :)
18:46:23 <frosch123> hmm, it needs ten years for those ships to pay off :s
18:46:40 <frosch123> the route is too short
18:46:41 <Belugas> i won't invest in your company
18:47:38 <Zuu> Yexo: I've now made a patch (NoAI support for r22858):
18:48:21 <Belugas> buwhahahaa.... i removed a tiny piece of wood stuck in my finger, the girl i train just fainted!
18:48:27 <Belugas> poor little thing :)
18:49:13 <frosch123> does not sound like programming :)
18:55:53 <andythenorth> frosch123: you're playing with opengfx? in ttd original-style graphics, river rapids have rocks...
18:56:14 <andythenorth> and yes, you need to build canals for depots and docks
18:56:17 <andythenorth> which is annoyink
18:56:21 <andythenorth> but 'realistic'
18:58:04 <andythenorth> oh're using 'original' graphics :o
18:58:05 <andythenorth> t
18:58:05 <andythenorth> h
18:58:11 <andythenorth> the slopes are quite obvious imo
18:58:55 <andythenorth> the big, deep 'rivers' could be done if terragen could be taught to make fjords
18:59:00 <andythenorth> I tried, but I'm not smart enough
18:59:16 <andythenorth> the river tiles don't need all that stuff
19:01:20 <frosch123> now using steam trams to transfer stuff from mines to the sea
19:02:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: in OpenGFX river rapids have rocks, too
19:02:45 <planetmaker> longer than TTD actually ;-)
19:03:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: any time you see a river, build a railroad :P
19:04:45 <frosch123> oh, i still had the original pathfinder activated
19:05:22 *** pugi has joined #openttd
19:05:30 <frosch123> and i has 90° turns disabled
19:06:24 <frosch123> ships have a hard time turning around on rivers
19:12:18 <andythenorth> he
19:16:08 <frosch123> ok, ships pay off on 4 years now
19:16:11 <frosch123> that should be better
19:19:26 <frosch123> and ships always generate a "ship is lost" message when they are forced to reverse :p
19:19:40 *** TWerkhoven has quit IRC
19:26:05 <frosch123> trains are more flexible than ships :p
19:26:24 <frosch123> you can just attach or remove some wagons to change capacity
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19:29:41 <Zuu> tug boat + those floatation things that work like wagons? :-)
19:30:27 <Zuu> I gues FISH have them as refit option.
19:31:08 <andythenorth> no
19:31:12 <andythenorth> the crowd voted them out
19:31:50 <andythenorth> the FISH tugboats are mostly coded and mostly drawn, but I'm sulking about releasing them
19:31:53 <andythenorth> due to idiots
19:32:34 <JVassie> ?
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19:41:49 <andythenorth> JVassie: the tugboats aren't realistic
19:41:50 <andythenorth> meh
19:41:58 <andythenorth> I should grow up
19:42:02 <andythenorth> and get over myself
19:42:10 * JVassie hugs andythenorth
19:42:18 <andythenorth> umm thanks
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19:42:25 <JVassie> :p
19:42:33 <JVassie> ottd has a flawed scale
19:42:35 <JVassie> which doesnt help
19:42:42 <JVassie> you do the best you can do
19:42:43 <JVassie> nuff said
19:42:46 <JVassie> let the haters hate
19:43:43 <andythenorth> frosch123: nice flat landscape you have for your rivers
19:43:45 <perk11> can anyone give me a hint where I can download 1.0.1 version?
19:43:46 <andythenorth> I see no locks :P
19:44:13 <JVassie>
19:44:23 <perk11> JVassie: more exactly?
19:44:45 <perk11> I don't see "previous versions" there
19:44:47 <JVassie> why not 1.1.2?
19:45:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: i told you that rivers makes no sense in mountains
19:45:08 <pjpe>
19:45:08 <frosch123> it is hilly landscape though
19:45:16 <perk11> JVassie: there is a server running this ver
19:45:20 <andythenorth> mountains schmountains
19:45:25 <perk11> pjpe: ty
19:45:34 <andythenorth> there are locks on most navigable waterways
19:45:37 <frosch123> i have 3 lock in total now
19:47:45 * andythenorth will just keep sulking :P
19:48:26 <andythenorth> I am happy to build locks
19:48:32 <andythenorth> 3 tile locks annoy me
19:48:42 <andythenorth> annoy is a relative term
19:48:50 <andythenorth> losing my keys annoys me
19:49:05 <andythenorth> locks are just very mildly irritating
19:50:00 <frosch123> locks are totally fine from my pov. but rivers are too small, and industries are not spawned next to rivers :p
19:50:13 <frosch123> and there are no docks suitable for rivers
19:50:22 <frosch123> you always have to build a hill first
19:50:41 <andythenorth> you want industries next to rivers?
19:50:46 <andythenorth> next you'll want a pony
19:50:57 <frosch123> :p
19:52:04 <andythenorth> I considered having FIRS try to locate next to rivers, but I think it's not wise
19:52:50 <frosch123> yeah, likely not :)
19:55:31 * andythenorth wonders
19:55:43 <andythenorth> locks are extra annoying because the river has to be bulldozed first
19:55:47 <andythenorth> no overbuilding
19:56:01 <andythenorth> but canal can be overbuilt on river
19:56:44 <frosch123> yeah, might be inconsistent
19:58:11 <andythenorth> canals *should* be a viable option in early game
19:58:33 <andythenorth> but due to me setting ship price high, and *insane* cost of making a navigable waterway, they're not
19:59:12 <andythenorth> maybe I should add more river/canal boats, which cost relatively quite some less than ships, but are slower
19:59:22 <andythenorth> hmm
19:59:35 <andythenorth> I could keep moaning about costs, or I could adjust them with grf :P
19:59:37 <andythenorth> forgot that
20:00:12 <andythenorth> you guys will be annoyed if I have FISH adjust build cost of canals?
20:01:35 <frosch123> <- four-hop transfer
20:02:48 <andythenorth> portage
20:02:55 <andythenorth> YACD?
20:03:01 <frosch123> no
20:03:14 <andythenorth> meh
20:03:17 <andythenorth> transfers suck
20:03:23 <andythenorth> most of those vehicles are losing money?
20:03:37 <frosch123> none
20:03:41 <andythenorth> oh
20:03:53 <andythenorth> in my current game my 3/4 hop transfers are mostly losing money :(
20:03:58 <andythenorth> I make money overall
20:04:07 <frosch123> the trams have profit of 200£ to 760£
20:04:44 <frosch123> the ships 3500 to 9200
20:05:48 <frosch123> i guess it works because the ships are not much faster than the trams
20:08:53 <andythenorth> how would non-slope-tile docks work?
20:08:57 <andythenorth> conceptually
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20:12:03 <frosch123> ttdp has something implemented, but i guess there is no single grf available using it
20:12:23 <frosch123> i guess it would be either two tiles with one on land and one in the river, like the current docks
20:12:24 <andythenorth> does this arrive at the usual progression of
20:12:29 <andythenorth> 'it needs state machine'
20:12:33 <andythenorth> 'state machine needs newports'
20:12:36 <frosch123> or - which might be nicer - a dock completely parallel to the river
20:12:38 <frosch123> only on land
20:12:41 <andythenorth> 'no-one can solve newports'
20:13:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: being able to build docks *along* coasts would be nice as well as rivers
20:13:14 <andythenorth> although rail stations achieve much same I guess
20:13:29 * andythenorth wonders if station types could be simply merged
20:13:36 <andythenorth> and tiles support n vehicle types
20:13:38 <frosch123> the same could be said about depots
20:13:39 <andythenorth> probly *not*
20:13:53 <frosch123> building them next to river would solve the issue of them being too small :p
20:14:03 <andythenorth> it's the correct solution imo
20:14:25 <andythenorth> there's probably some blocker :(
20:14:34 <frosch123> but you could then build canals by chaining depots :p
20:15:01 <frosch123> i.e. they may only have one exit then
20:16:53 * andythenorth ponders what graphical shiny thing would provide incentive to fix docks
20:17:00 * andythenorth can't think of anything :P
20:21:43 <__ln__> english grammar question: in "they provide us with [something]", is 'with' mandatory or optional?
20:22:14 <pjpe> depends
20:22:34 <pjpe> might want to keep the with
20:23:14 <andythenorth> __ln__: which english :P
20:23:17 <andythenorth> there's lots
20:23:29 <andythenorth> UK English, 'correct'
20:23:36 <andythenorth> or world english, 'understandable'
20:24:00 <andythenorth> and what's the [something] ?
20:24:14 <andythenorth> "they provide us shelter" is probably acceptable
20:24:30 <andythenorth> "they provide us rabbits" should really be "they provide us with rabbits"
20:24:50 <pjpe> but with works in both ways
20:24:53 <pjpe> i'd say keep the with
20:26:06 <__ln__> [something] could be e.g. 'a way to earn money'
20:27:00 <JVassie> with still applies I think
20:27:06 <JVassie> they provide us with a way to earn money
20:28:06 <__ln__> with 'with' sounds better to me too, i just don't have any reliable reference that says it's so.
20:28:08 <michi_cc> frosch123:
20:29:06 <__ln__> (until now; of course i consider #openttd reliable!)
20:29:27 <frosch123> thanks michi_cc :) now that i see it, i think i might have seen before
20:34:29 <__ln__> i'm actually reading for an exam and writing down grammatical errors in the book simultaneously......
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20:36:30 <__ln__> found three of such within the first 120 pages.
20:36:31 <Belugas> and... irc'ing :)
20:36:37 <__ln__> that too :)
20:37:09 <Belugas> i'm sure you have music on the background as well...
20:37:20 <Belugas> i cannot live without music...
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20:42:06 <__ln__> instrumental music is ok for background when reading
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20:59:56 <frosch123> alternatively you can use music where you do not understand the text
21:00:39 <andythenorth> trying to clone a ship from train depot window produces string 'vehicle is not available'
21:00:41 <frosch123> and if the music is loud enough there is nothing which can distract you
21:00:46 <andythenorth> which is not quite true or accurate
21:01:41 <Belugas> and repetitive, too.. like...hypnosys
21:01:59 <Belugas> man i'm so mad when they cut me out of my bubble :S
21:02:19 <frosch123> oh, dalestan actually drew those dock sprites :o
21:02:34 <frosch123> (well, adapted the originals)
21:06:10 <planetmaker> does openttd support that type of docks?
21:06:23 <frosch123> no
21:06:40 <frosch123> i stumbled yesterday over them when adding version tags :)
21:06:59 <frosch123> the tricky part is also how to build them
21:07:16 <frosch123> ttdp allows them only on tiles which have exactly one neighboured watertile
21:07:20 <frosch123> so it can figure out the direction
21:07:50 <Zuu> Does it store the direction in the map so that you can add more water tiles later?
21:07:59 <planetmaker> :-)
21:08:16 <frosch123> yes, it is only needed during construction
21:08:25 <frosch123> as it remains a single click build
21:08:28 <frosch123> like normal docks
21:08:42 <JVassie> how do you add a user to the access list on oftc?
21:08:53 <Zuu> Could either use sub-tile mouse location for direction like eg. auto-road or use a depot like window.
21:09:30 <frosch123> hmm, sub-tile mouse location might be most cleverish
21:09:50 <frosch123> a picker window would also change the construction of normal depots
21:10:27 <Zuu> If there exist easy to use stubs for eg. auto-road to hook into, it would probably not be too much work.
21:10:56 <frosch123> well, it does not need dragging
21:10:59 <frosch123> so it is easier
21:11:11 <planetmaker> auto-rail like construction
21:11:29 <planetmaker> which indicates the current placement
21:11:36 <Zuu> yep
21:11:48 <frosch123> hmm, that method would also work for tunnels
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21:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's a good idea
21:13:04 <Zuu> frosch123: You mean indicating the other end?
21:14:14 <Zuu> Or tunnels starting at flat tiles?
21:14:44 <planetmaker> tunnels on flat tiles require new graphics, too ;-)
21:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> tunnels on slopes not exactly aligned?
21:15:08 <Zuu> I'm sure someone will paint it if someone implements it.
21:15:09 <frosch123> well, originally i meant tunnels at diagonal slopes
21:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> tunnels on flat tiles need bridge-like construction
21:15:33 <frosch123> but then i remembered that would need the new map array :p
21:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause> "the new map array"
21:16:15 <frosch123> esp. the "(new map) array", not the "new (map array)"
21:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> diagonal tunnels/bridges!
21:18:27 <peter1138> smooth curves!
21:18:44 <frosch123> finer height levels
21:18:51 <peter1138> realistic scale!
21:18:59 <frosch123> extra zoom
21:19:22 <peter1138> 2 tracks on a tile!
21:19:27 <frosch123> weather
21:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> 3! 4!
21:20:46 <frosch123> did i ever told you how much i hate games with weather and/or day/night cycle?
21:21:03 *** KouDy has quit IRC
21:21:17 <peter1138> minecraft!
21:21:28 <frosch123> like that always some silly animation blocks your view
21:21:34 <Zuu> It depends. In SimTower it was done in a good way.
21:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> SimCity 2000 had weather, but i have no clue what it actually did
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21:22:49 <frosch123> maybe monsters only appear when it is sunny?
21:23:25 <frosch123> interesting that the disasters of simcity are as silly as those of ottd, isn't it? :)
21:23:34 *** Progman has quit IRC
21:24:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the disasters of simcity had pretty widespread effects
21:24:23 * Zuu liked the transport problems in SimTower :-)
21:26:23 <andythenorth> underground metro!
21:26:29 <andythenorth> geology!
21:26:46 <andythenorth> collateralised debt obligations!
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21:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> buying and selling cargo!
21:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> (what a silly idea...)
21:28:11 <frosch123> ports of calls was such a game
21:28:28 <frosch123> unless you wrecked your ship because you had to park it manually
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21:32:21 <frosch123> hmm, i wasn't aware there are new versions of it
21:33:36 <planetmaker> ports of calls! oh, long ago...
21:33:56 * TWerkhoven[l] still has it somewhere
21:34:06 <TWerkhoven[l]> windows version too
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21:37:33 * andythenorth plays the game
21:37:35 <andythenorth> it's quite fun
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21:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> never heard of that game
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21:55:17 <Terkhen> good night
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22:30:45 <__ln__>
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22:35:53 <LordAro> he _will_ be killed
22:35:56 <LordAro> night all
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22:41:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r22861 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_order.cpp ai_order.hpp ai_order.hpp.sq): -Add: [NoAI] support the new conditional order introduced in r22858 (Zuu)
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22:52:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22862 /trunk/src/tree_gui.cpp: -Add: Allow the tree build gui to resize according to tree size
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