IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-08-25
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00:04:37 <Katje> is there a way to just renew every vehicle I have?
00:04:47 <Katje> the constant "tis old, replace it" messages are pissing me off
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00:28:42 <pjpe> send all to service?
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00:42:00 <glx> Katje: just use autorenew
00:42:26 <glx>
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03:29:31 <adamkex> how can i buy aircraft? i have 2 airports
03:38:09 <Eddi|zuHause> click on the hangar
03:39:38 <adamkex> Eddi|zuHause: i am in the hangar
03:40:00 <adamkex> nevermind found it
03:40:14 <adamkex> thanks
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06:34:07 <__ln__> bonjour
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06:53:32 <dihedral> morning
07:03:26 <Rubidium> moin dih
07:03:36 <dihedral> :-)
07:03:48 <dihedral> hey :-)
07:03:51 <dihedral> how are you today sir?
07:04:20 <Rubidium> sad
07:04:39 <Ammler> :'-(
07:05:27 <Rubidium> they'll fetch my laptop today to do some repairs they should've been done a long time ago
07:05:43 <Rubidium> and that'll then take some 7-10 working days
07:09:16 <Rubidium> but heh, it's only the sixth repair so far
07:14:04 <andythenorth> technology is lame
07:14:31 <Rubidium> no, tech support of a certain company (and probably many others) is stupid
07:15:27 <Rubidium> 1) overheating CPU, solution: new motherboard + loads and loads of cooling paste (the whole syringe)
07:15:36 <andythenorth> is it a fruit flavoured company?
07:15:57 <Rubidium> as added bonus: they break a bit of the connector between the palmrest and back of the laptop
07:16:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: nope
07:16:21 <Rubidium> so they promise me to repair that the next time they come around
07:16:30 <pjpe> apple has boss tech support
07:16:35 <pjpe> logic board on my laptop went bad
07:16:40 <pjpe> 2 days later they put in a new one
07:16:42 <pjpe> all fine
07:16:49 <pjpe> only problem in 3 years
07:17:06 <Rubidium> 2) overheating CPU, due to too much cooling paste (week later): replace motherboard again, and now use no cooling paste. Works great, but they forget to give the tech dude the palmrest
07:17:26 <Rubidium> 3) they come to replace the thing broken in 1, but have taken the wrong bit
07:18:04 <Rubidium> 4) computer doesn't start up anymore; probably power supply broken. They replace the motherboard again, oh... and forget the palm rest
07:19:17 <Rubidium> 5) overheating problems once more... and break even more bits of the palm rest, they promise to replace it soon
07:19:25 <Rubidium> (after the weekend soon)
07:19:59 <Rubidium> on the wednesday after the weekend I call again... they again promise to send someone. Never got there
07:20:17 <Rubidium> but heh, what harm can a not well connected back and palmrest do?
07:20:20 <Rubidium> well...
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07:20:48 <appe> for god sake
07:20:51 <Rubidium> 6) sound fails occasionally. By twisting (one hand going up, one hand going down) the laptop it occasionally works again
07:21:14 <appe> you really need to exaggerate the cooling paste to overheat the cpu
07:21:40 <Rubidium> so... that's like 5 motherboards and 5 times sending someone over. That must've cost more than doing it right the first time, wouldn't it?
07:21:50 <appe> or send you a new one.
07:22:51 <pjpe> it isn't an hp is it
07:23:00 <pjpe> those guys are pretty good at running a business in to the ground
07:23:09 <andythenorth> a laptop costs how much to manufacture? €150?
07:23:21 <appe> jeez
07:23:49 <Rubidium> andythenorth: a lot less since it's done by the Polish instead of the Irish
07:24:08 <Rubidium> have not had a single problem with my Irish computer, but the Polish one is a disaster
07:25:10 <Rubidium> or maybe I shouldn't have paid the 10 euros extra for a bluray drive instead of dvd drive, 4gb instead of 2gb and 3 years at home instead of 1 year carry in warranty. Maybe then everything would've been fine ;)
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07:26:46 <Rubidium> although the Irish one starts to show some issues, but then that's been in heavy use for 6 years now and the issues are: some dead pixels and the hinge of the screen doesn't quite work anymore (though easily fixed by replacing the hinge yourself)
07:27:05 <Rubidium> and that's in my opinion a pretty good track record for a computer
07:30:23 <blathijs> Rubidium: Out of curiosity, what laptop brand was that?
07:31:02 * __ln__ guesses Dell
07:32:01 <Rubidium> hmm, the rant about moving from Ireland to Poland isn't enough? :)
07:32:32 * andythenorth had a welsh computer
07:32:39 <andythenorth> had / has
07:32:43 <andythenorth> still works afaik
07:32:49 <andythenorth> 'lovingly made in Newport'
07:32:59 <Rubidium> blathijs: in any case... Dell
07:35:34 <blathijs> Rubidium: I hadn't read that part :-)
07:36:27 <Rubidium> the major question will be what the brand for my next laptop will be
07:36:43 <Rubidium> as there aren't many 1920x1200 15" laptops
07:37:11 <Ammler> your eyes will say thanks
07:39:54 <Rubidium> really?
07:40:50 <blathijs> Rubidium: I've got good a good (but expensive) experience with Lenovo since the beginning of this year
07:41:01 <blathijs> Rubidium: Though I haven't needed to test their tech support yet
07:41:30 <Rubidium> oh, the old IBMs?
07:41:45 <Rubidium> at least, that's what I think about when I see thinkpad
07:42:11 <blathijs> Rubidium: Yeah, this one is still in the old design. I think they made a few thinkpads that look more flashy recently
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08:04:24 <Terkhen> good morning
08:06:18 <Ammler> blathijs: tech support is what counts, everyone can make working shit ;-)
08:07:25 <Ammler> maybe you can "fake" an issue and test it
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08:25:10 <xavexgoem> Is it OK to update a dead patch against a more current revision without permission? It's for timetable separation, and the guy who made it seems to have left.
08:25:26 <xavexgoem> I'm just afraid there's a secret protocol I'm not aware of.
08:26:14 <valhallasw> xavexgoem: that depends on the license
08:26:29 <Rubidium> valhallasw: problem is that patches are generally not licensed
08:26:54 <xavexgoem> yeah, that's not specified
08:27:08 <valhallasw> xavexgoem: do you mean ?
08:27:12 <Rubidium> although... I'd say you are given an implicit license to apply it to OpenTTD's sources
08:27:26 <Rubidium> which basically means it's GPLv2
08:27:28 <valhallasw> IMO it's reasonable to expect patches submitted to the bug tracker to fall under the OTTD license
08:27:40 <xavexgoem> No, it's not MagicBuzz's, its Gathers'
08:27:48 <xavexgoem> which afaik is only on the forum
08:27:57 <valhallasw> Rubidium: you're implicitly licensed to apply it, yes, but not necessarily to redistribute the updated version
08:28:14 <valhallasw> not sure about the patch between those versions, though ;-)
08:28:55 <Rubidium> valhallasw: but if parts of it aren't GPLv2 licensed, then it must be stated. Otherwise the file that is patched will say it's GPLv2 licensed
08:29:06 <Rubidium> which means everything in there is GPLv2 licensed
08:29:47 <xavexgoem> Sooo... I have the post ready, should I add it to the forums or not?
08:29:49 <Rubidium> so the only possible files that might cause problems are the new files, but usually they have the whole GPLv2 preamble as well
08:31:11 <Rubidium> so they should be considered GPLv2 licensed as well
08:31:55 <valhallasw> Hm. Not sure if the code added to files automatically takes the license on top, but GPLv2 of course demands changes to also be under GPLv2
08:32:17 <Rubidium> even then, GPLv2 is "viral". So you may only link GPLv2 compatible .o files
08:32:18 <valhallasw> which means it should be OK
08:32:26 <valhallasw> yeah exactly
08:33:03 <Rubidium> which in effect means that the patches are GPLv2 *or* less strict than GPLv2, but in all cases you can change the license to GPLv2 due to their license compatability and thus every OpenTTD patch is GPLv2
08:35:00 <peter1138> you can link whatever you like
08:35:14 <peter1138> it's distribution that matters
08:36:55 <xavexgoem> can I be bold and hope for the best?
08:40:16 <Rubidium> given the amount of others that have done so, I guess you can (but I'm not a lawyer)
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09:04:53 <Yexo> xavexgoem: there are two possible responses from the original author: 1. He is ok with it. 2. He doesn't like it, but to prevent you distributing the updating patch he has to say his original patch was not gpl, ie he was distributing it illegally
09:08:58 <xavexgoem> thanks!
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09:14:46 <SpComb> xavexgoem: as long as you make it clear who the origional author was, I'm sure it'll be fine with everyone
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09:27:31 <mrclnz> hi people
09:27:45 <Rubidium> morning
09:29:22 <mrclnz> I'm trying to handle bus/tram in the early games (egrvt) but I have a couple issues: in 'smallish' towns they make no profit and rating goes down (since I can't put a tram every 4 days)
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09:29:56 <mrclnz> in big cities (>1000) stops get crowded and no amount of tram can handle it... is there a way???
09:30:02 <Rubidium> they don't need a tram every 4 days
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09:30:31 <mrclnz> I tried about every 10 days and it's not bad...
09:30:48 <Rubidium> every stop should get on every 20 days
09:31:02 <Rubidium> and the amount of passengers too high
09:31:03 <mrclnz> but too few pax and they make no profit
09:31:12 <mrclnz> every 20???
09:31:12 <Rubidium> +shouldn't be
09:31:14 <Yexo> wasn't it every 50 days for the town rating?
09:31:17 <Yexo> for the stating rating more often
09:31:27 <mrclnz> I'm talking station rating
09:31:39 <mrclnz> iirc is 4 days (16 for ships)
09:31:43 <Rubidium> Yexo: I seem to remember 20
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09:32:01 <Yexo> it's 20 "2.5-day" days
09:32:04 <Yexo> which makes for 50 days
09:32:21 <mrclnz> yep it changed
09:32:23 <Yexo> the variable in the openttd code is called *_day, but it's actually 2.5 days
09:32:26 <Yexo> it never changed
09:32:47 <mrclnz> I *clearly* remember 4 from original ttd
09:32:56 <Yexo> mrclnz: this was still about the town rating
09:33:13 <Yexo> for the stating rating it's 10 days, according to the wiki:
09:33:39 <mrclnz> yes I'm reading that
09:33:39 <Rubidium> ah, yes... makes sense
09:33:49 <mrclnz> its computed every 2.5
09:33:56 <Rubidium> so once every 50 days increases the town rating
09:34:17 <mrclnz> Rubidium: no
09:34:20 <Rubidium> if close enough to the city center
09:34:26 <mrclnz> ah *town* rating
09:34:46 <mrclnz> uhmm is town rating for anything different from building/razing stuff?
09:35:04 <Yexo> no
09:35:25 <mrclnz> ok then for now I don't care for it:D
09:36:11 <Yexo> mrclnz: to get the best station rating you need to try to pickup cargo every 3 "2.5 days"
09:36:28 <Yexo> so maximum time between pickups is 7.5 days
09:36:39 <mrclnz> uhm 8 days then...
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09:41:46 <Yexo> mrclnz: I fixed the table on the wiki
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09:58:05 <mrclnz> Yexo: loool:P:P
09:58:07 <mrclnz> ok thx
09:59:42 <mrclnz> I remembered right for the original ttd
10:00:13 <Yexo> mrclnz: those same numbers are in the openttd code, but that code is not called every day but every 2.5 days
10:00:24 <Yexo> so I suspect that table is wrong, you have to multiply all the numbers by 2.5
10:00:32 <Yexo> which results in the numbers on the current openttd wiki
10:00:41 <mrclnz> ok, just to know
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10:25:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22834 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Codechange: unify some code, and extend it to work for other filenames that should end in a particular way
10:27:30 <LordAro> is rubidium back up to his usual committing rate?
10:30:44 <Rubidium> only for a short time though... vacation
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10:31:11 <Rubidium> but not for long :(
10:31:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22835 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio_func.h): -Codechange: keep track of the subdirectory we are looking through in the file scanner
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10:37:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22836 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs):
10:42:34 <TrueBrain> wuth? No commit message?
10:44:00 * TrueBrain kicks CIA-2
10:44:00 <CIA-2> ow
10:46:03 <Rubidium> out of memory?
10:46:29 <Yexo> TrueBrain: doesn't list the last 2 commits
10:46:33 <Rubidium> yeah, likely...
10:46:42 <Rubidium> apache is wasting ginormous amounts of memory
10:47:15 <Rubidium> yay... freed half a GB of memory
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10:50:13 <Rubidium> hg should be updated again
10:51:00 <burtybob> Is it possible to modify something on the server side of the code without having to have a patched client?
10:51:27 <SpComb> someone apachekilling
10:51:53 <SpComb> burtybob: nothing that involves the actual game state
10:53:18 <burtybob> Is it possible to take money from one company and give to another via the console in this manner is that game state?
10:56:04 <andythenorth>
10:56:52 <SpComb> too liberal handling of byte-ranges in requests
10:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> burtybob: that should be possible, if you do it the right way
10:57:23 <TrueBrain> lucky we have nginx as proxy, should avoid that ... _should_, not tested :P
10:57:30 <Eddi|zuHause> burtybob: maybe that is already possible with the admin port
10:57:57 <SpComb> just dropping the Range header is fine as a workaround
10:58:15 <burtybob> As far as I can tell it isn't! I was thinking of hijacking the already existing function but putting in admin network and/or console access as well
10:58:20 <TrueBrain> I wonder what is next .. moving to HTTP/1.0? :D
10:58:53 <Rubidium> SpComb: I think more svn co
10:59:30 <Hirundo> There's already a command to give money, it needs to be called with the giving company as current company
11:00:00 <burtybob> Yeah in the C++ but I couldn't find one in the console
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11:03:21 <Hirundo> AFAIK there is no such command (yet)
11:03:56 <burtybob> Which is what I was asking about doing a server side only patch or would it change the game state?
11:05:12 <burtybob> So basically if it's server side only do I just need to manually set the rev number to "1.1.1" for example
11:06:11 <Hirundo> I think you could do it as a server-size patch, as long as you use DoCommandP so the command is sent to all clients
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11:12:13 <burtybob> ok thanks
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11:55:41 <LordAro> can someone confirm this edit?
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12:03:05 <Ammler> this isn't a edit
12:03:49 <Ammler> could be which you meant:
12:03:53 <LordAro> this then: ;)
12:04:09 <LordAro> so yes :L
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12:06:53 <Ammler> I would not refer to a patch
12:07:52 <LordAro> but the basic idea is right? i haven't got much idea when it comes to NML
12:07:52 <Ammler> rather mention that the additional zoom levels are yet not supported by openttd
12:08:48 <Ammler> (and then you can give a hint to the zoom level patch ;-)
12:09:46 <Ammler> basically nml does support multiple zoom levels but that is independent of the patch
12:10:14 <Ammler> the final tar does work with both, right?
12:10:28 <LordAro> tar?
12:10:42 <Ammler> well, the final output :-)
12:11:16 <Ammler> (which you tar, don't you)
12:11:24 <LordAro> i have no idea... :)
12:16:47 <LordAro> how's this? (refresh page)
12:17:32 <LordAro> i was only really editing it because of me (basically) taking over the 32bpp_extra project
12:19:19 <Ammler> the grf or the ez patch?
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12:46:11 <mrclnz> uhmmm I really like yacd... but it's nearly impossible without automatic separation/advance timetables
12:46:58 <LordAro> Ammler: grf
12:47:03 <LordAro> mrcc
12:47:12 <LordAro> ignore that :L
12:47:31 <LordAro> mrclnz: most people manage without
12:49:32 <mrclnz> LordAro: how do you avoid the trams piling up???
12:50:36 <mrclnz> even if I start them nicely spaced at the end they all cluster up and station rating suffers (and rating is vital for yacd it seems)
13:05:38 <LordAro> mrclnz: i don't use trams :)
13:05:49 <mrclnz> tram bus whatever:P
13:06:19 <mrclnz> since with yacd you *have* to cover big cities buses and tram are the only viable solution
13:06:32 * mrclnz has to learn to use the timetable then
13:06:56 <LordAro> i haven't payed yacd much, but when i did i mostly used freight
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13:12:49 <LordAro> *played
13:13:06 <Hirundo> mrclnz: In not too large towns, I tend to assign a different route to every bus/tram
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13:21:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22837 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 3 dirs):
13:21:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
13:21:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Always draw NewGRF supplied texts with a default colour (r22725)
13:21:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Do not restrict AdvVarAct2 to 255 operations (r22723)
13:21:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: If there is no point in opening the rail/air toolbar, do not open it for people who use hotkeys either rather than only for those using GUI elements (r22716, r22715, r22714)
13:21:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Allow AIAirport::GetNoiseLevelIncrease() also for expired airports [FS#4704] (r22710)
13:24:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22838 /branches/1.1/ (12 files in 4 dirs):
13:24:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
13:24:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Display the size of the leveled platform in the measurement tooltip of terraforming operations [FS#4708] (r22740, r22739)
13:24:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Setting company passwords via the GUI on servers (including starting a company with the default password) failed, so no client could join that company [FS#4722] (r22738)
13:24:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] The construction stage sprites were incorrectly selected in cases other than 1 or 4 sprites per set (r22731)
13:24:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] AITile::GetCargoAcceptance, AITile::GetCargoProduction and AIRail::BuildNewGRFRailStation did not check the cargo argument for validity (r22726)
13:28:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22839 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 3 dirs):
13:28:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
13:28:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Also free allocated depot tables of NewGRF airports (r22760)
13:28:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Invalid memory access when querying the grfID of the default objects [FS#4730] (r22757)
13:28:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: When marking tile selections dirty, use the height information of the corners instead of the surface slope. This is more accurate when the foundation is kind of undefined [FS#4727] (r22755)
13:28:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Make aircraft point to the exit when leaving the hangar [FS#4696] (r22743, r22742, r22741)
13:28:18 <LordAro> woo, backports :)
13:30:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22840 /branches/1.1/ (7 files in 3 dirs):
13:30:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
13:30:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Allow to demolish aqueducts built in the scenario editor [FS#4741] (r22821)
13:30:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Towns expanding from the "wrong" side of a tunnel or bridge [FS#4731] (r22810, r22809)
13:30:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] String codes for dates should use unsigned words, like old OpenTTD did before it learned dates before 1920 (r22774)
13:30:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Clarify the meaning of AIStation::IsWithinTownInfluence(), AITile::IsWithinTownInfluence() and AITown::IsWithinTownInfluence() [FS#4702] (r22763)
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13:34:21 <fjb> Moin
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13:41:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22841 /branches/1.1/ (31 files in 3 dirs):
13:41:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
13:41:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Compilation with GCC 4.7 (r22832, r22728, r22719)
13:41:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Update: Translations
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13:46:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22842 /branches/1.1/ (12 files in 6 dirs):
13:46:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
13:46:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Add: River graphics for the original base set (r22766)
13:51:32 <Eddi|zuHause> mrclnz: i tend to set a roundtrip timetable slightly longer than the real time it takes (waiting times at the end stations) and space the trams out with the startdate
13:51:49 <Eddi|zuHause> mrclnz: that is tedious without advanced timetables, but it generally works
13:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> usually every 10 days, 5 days or 3 days, depending how busy the line is
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13:59:17 <mrclnz> Eddi|zuHause: that's what's I'm doing
13:59:27 <mrclnz> it seems to work (but no profit:()
14:00:30 <Rubidium> are you using an official version of OpenTTD, then maybe providing a savegame will help us understand your problem
14:00:55 <Rubidium> although it might be incorrect use of transfer
14:00:58 <mrclnz> trouble is at the beginning there are sloooow trams and so you need 8 of them to keep covered a city... but there are few pax
14:01:05 <mrclnz> Rubidium: i'm trying yacd
14:01:25 <planetmaker> good day
14:01:29 <mrclnz> maybe pax at the beginning is not a good strategy:P
14:01:29 <andythenorth> lo
14:01:47 <mrclnz> well, learnt to schedule trams anyway thx
14:02:13 <Rubidium> maybe you don't have a route the passengers want to take
14:02:32 <Rubidium> take a look at the town window; are you providing service to the given towns?
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14:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> mrclnz: yacd with passengers is actually easier than freight
14:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (imho)
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14:14:59 <V453000> yacd is hard?
14:15:13 <V453000> I felt like it makes everything easier
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14:43:23 <Rubidium> V453000: depends on your playing style; those #openttdcoop games where they transport everything to a single location will horribly fail if there are multiple secondary/tertiary industries of that type scattered around the map
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14:48:01 <Ackmey> Hey everyone
14:48:53 <Terkhen> hi Ackmey
14:49:18 <Ackmey> I have a question regarding the local authority... how do you get them to like you? I've taken to building airports early between large town, and they're profitable and everything, but then the town starts hating me because I can't keep up with the passenger demand, which screws me later on when I want to upgrade my airport but can't
14:50:29 <dihedral> give them money
14:51:21 <Ackmey> bribing?
14:51:41 <valhallasw> or build trees
14:51:46 <Terkhen> trees
14:51:55 <Ackmey> I tried building trees, they still hated me. :D
14:52:07 <Rubidium> yep, bribing... either directly or by trees is always the way for politicians
14:52:32 <Ackmey> and where's the bribing thing? I have it turned on in options but I cant find it anywhere in game
14:52:57 <Rubidium> if you click on the town's name there'll be a window
14:53:04 <V453000> Rubidium: no they wont fail at all, none of any advanced networking is needed for yacd
14:53:08 <Rubidium> and there will be a button with actions to do in that window
14:53:31 <Ackmey> Yeah under local authority but it's not there
14:53:36 <Ackmey> I see the advertising campaigns I can do
14:53:38 <Ackmey> but nothing else
14:53:40 <Rubidium> then you don't have enough money yet
14:53:58 <Rubidium> you need quite a bit of money to get the bribing option
14:54:01 <Ackmey> Ah
14:54:07 <Ackmey> Thanks
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14:54:31 <valhallasw> you might want to know bribing can go wrong
14:55:21 <Ackmey> I'll be aware of that :P
14:55:37 <Ackmey> One more thing... what do you guys generally do on startup of a game? Build busses? Boats? Industry and any particular kind? I've been playing MP with my friend who is also new and he's been stomping my face in constantly. :(
14:56:08 <Ackmey> cant figure out what he's doing differently than me
14:56:16 <valhallasw> trains, generally
14:56:26 <valhallasw> they allow you to transport large amounts of cargo over large distances
14:56:52 <Ackmey> Would I still aim for an airport early?
14:57:45 <Katje> if I leave openttd running long enough, will all the cityies merge into one super city ?
14:58:15 <Katje> Ackmey: passengers over a long distance, with coal as a backup to provide steady income
14:58:43 <Ackmey> train or plane passengers?
15:04:52 <Ackmey> which train should I use early, the cheap Kirby Paul or the Chaney?
15:07:43 <Pinkbeast> Coo, someone playing with vanilla trains.
15:08:07 <Pinkbeast> In vanilla you basically always want the latest engine available. The increases in running cost are more than made up by increases in power.
15:09:10 <Pinkbeast> And typically your early moneymaker is coal from a mine to a power station. Counterintuitively, don't pick a pair super close together - the further apart the better, provided you have the cash to build the line at all.
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15:12:19 <Ackmey> okay thanks
15:12:41 <Ackmey> so with long deliveries I should make my trains with as many carriages as possible?
15:13:36 <Pinkbeast> As long as the engine can get it up to full speed, pretty much yes.
15:14:18 <Pinkbeast> Also the vanilla engine sets don't really distinguish passenger and freight locomotives.
15:14:55 <Ackmey> How do I know what's the proper horsepower to load carried ratio, or how long I can afford to make my train with a given engine?
15:15:16 <Pinkbeast> Experience (sigh, sorry)
15:15:39 <Ackmey> Okay
15:15:54 <Pinkbeast> Also remember you can always bring a train back to the depot for more wagons.
15:16:07 <Ackmey> But then I need to upgrade my station size
15:16:29 <Pinkbeast> Right, but upgrading a station where the train enters and leaves from the same end is 2 seconds' work
15:16:47 <Ackmey> dont you need to destory and replace it?
15:16:48 <Pinkbeast> I'm just looking up the stats on the vanilla engines...
15:16:59 <Pinkbeast> Nope, you can add extra station tiles to an existing station.
15:17:28 <Ackmey> Ohh okay
15:17:45 <Pinkbeast> I would guess the Jubilee would pull about a five-tile freight train if you have a x3 cargo weight multiplier or more if not.
15:18:27 <Ackmey> Okay
15:18:48 <Ackmey> 5 tiles not including the locomotive itself?
15:18:50 <Pinkbeast> I'm not quite sure how far along you are - are you still building single-track one-train operations like the wiki suggests
15:19:05 <Ackmey> Yeah
15:19:06 <Pinkbeast> 5 tiles total (because you always think in terms of station sizes and the whole train has to fit)
15:19:07 <Ackmey> I'm pretty new
15:19:25 <Ackmey> so the station would be 3 tiles to fit that, right?
15:19:55 <Pinkbeast> Er... no, the station would be 5 tiles long
15:20:05 <Pinkbeast> That's 5 _tiles_ of train. Not 5 wagons.
15:20:22 <Ackmey> Ohh
15:20:26 <Pinkbeast> In recent releases the train length in tiles is displayed as you create it in the depot.
15:20:37 <Ackmey> so the one locomotive, and 9 wagons
15:20:51 <Pinkbeast> If all the vanilla wagons are half a tile exactly which I think they are.
15:21:19 <Pinkbeast> Probably you don't have a cargo weight multipler and can make longer trains, but you'll make money with a Jub and 9 coal wagons, and you can extend it later.
15:22:29 <Pinkbeast> You want to get into double track very soon. Pretty well your only fixed cost is a per-station fee - so you want to get all the production of that coalmine out the station - so you want multiple trains
15:23:11 <Ackmey> Okay
15:23:17 <Ackmey> How far is a good distance?
15:24:01 <Ackmey> Uh what I just got a message telling me my new plane has too few orders on its schedule, but it has two?
15:24:26 <Pinkbeast> As far as you can afford to build the line (sigh experience again, sorry) - as a complete noob, I would suggest starting with a coalmine and power station which can't be seen on the same screen, ideally with flattish terrain between them and no farmland
15:24:38 <Pinkbeast> ... building on farmland costs about 4x building in open country
15:24:44 <Pinkbeast> What are the orders?
15:24:48 <Ackmey> Oh okay didnt know that
15:24:54 <Ackmey> the orders are just two towns
15:25:39 <Pinkbeast> Um. If you won't tell me what the orders are, I can't really say why this has happened.
15:25:53 <Ackmey> Haha sorry, it's
15:26:09 <Ackmey> !: Go to Hentfield Airport Hangar, 2:Go to Sanington Hangar
15:26:20 <Ackmey> Wait
15:26:21 <Pinkbeast> Right, neither of those are what you want.
15:26:23 <Ackmey> Why the hangar
15:26:25 <Ackmey> Yeah..
15:26:33 <Pinkbeast> You want to click on a part of the airport that's not the hangar.
15:26:47 <Ackmey> Yeah
15:26:49 <Ackmey> That was silly of me
15:27:11 <Pinkbeast> A nice thing in recent releases is that you can give vehicles a go-to-depot order. A nasty consequence is that, because hangars are built into airports, this can happen.
15:27:31 <Pinkbeast> "Not enough orders in the schedule" only counts orders where cargo pickup and dropoff might happen, so...
15:28:15 <Ackmey> Yeah
15:28:19 <Ackmey> Thanks for all the help by the way
15:28:53 <Pinkbeast> No worries, it can be a bit daunting.
15:29:08 <Ackmey> Yeah
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15:29:25 <Pinkbeast> In particular it would be nice if the default vehicle set was better, but I'd hesitate to recommend another set out of the gate
15:30:06 <Ackmey> Are passengers just a "commodity" that a town produces? Like any other industry?
15:31:08 <Pinkbeast> Yes, and (in vanilla) they don't care where they go, which will produce a number of odd consequences.
15:32:10 <V453000> towns are much better than industries :) industry just grows, but town can be easily controlled how much should it grow :)
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15:32:35 <V453000> downside is that a town requires some effort, industry just connection :)
15:32:41 <Ackmey> So I could say, just bring passengers from a big town to a tiny little 100 pop town?
15:32:57 <V453000> for example, why not
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15:33:19 <V453000> but you might like 2 or more larger stations exchange the passengers so your trains are most of the time full
15:33:34 <Pinkbeast> Yes. There's a lot to be said for this, too - normally with pax operations you can't use full load orders because you don't know which end will produce the most pax, but with this you do.
15:34:04 <Pinkbeast> In vanilla I tend to build connections between individual towns for pax and not worry too much about what's going on
15:34:24 <Ackmey> pax?
15:34:27 <V453000> it is best to make a transfer station for each big town/ town cluster
15:34:32 <Pinkbeast> pax = passengers
15:35:03 <Ackmey> A transfer station?
15:35:05 <Pinkbeast> One failing of OTTD (in my view) is that cargos have little flavour of their own
15:35:22 <V453000> flavour?
15:35:25 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> Don't worry about it now! Get your coalmine->power money spinner up first
15:35:49 <Pinkbeast> Flavour; transporting a passenger is very similar to transporting a mailbag to transporting a tonne of coal to...
15:35:58 <Ackmey> alright I'll start a new game and try that out
15:35:59 <V453000> yes
15:36:14 <V453000> but openttd does not fail there really, it is made the best way possible for playability
15:36:22 <V453000> and for amount of possible solutions
15:36:51 <V453000> if a passenger starts saying "I want there" it forces you to obey instead of be creative and try to make your own network
15:36:56 <Pinkbeast> On the contrary - if cargoes were more differentiated, you could start with the one that suits you best, then move onto a more challenging one
15:37:09 <Pinkbeast> V453> Well, it doesn't have to be "I want there".
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15:37:28 <V453000> well, what then
15:37:43 <Pinkbeast> For example, one of the old cargodest patches had passengers walk between nearby stations. I thought this was a brilliant idea. All of a sudden, passengers are unique!
15:38:10 <V453000> uhm
15:38:14 <V453000> I would hate that happening
15:38:22 <V453000> passengers rather randomly switch between my stations
15:38:27 <V453000> probably unexpectably
15:38:32 <Pinkbeast> No, you misunderstand.
15:39:02 <Pinkbeast> You could build a completely conventional network... but if you had two stations nearby in a city, passengers would sometimes journey to one and transfer out by the other.
15:39:45 <V453000> yes
15:39:49 <V453000> and how would you solve that
15:39:53 <Pinkbeast> Likewise I like sets like UKRS(2) that provide very different wagons for different cargos, given them more flavour.
15:40:03 <V453000> when one of your stations suddenly gets less passengers for no real reason
15:40:13 <Pinkbeast> No station receives less passengers because of this.
15:40:30 <V453000> then where do they go from
15:40:38 <V453000> or to
15:40:48 <Ackmey> Okay I just booted up, got 200,000$. Does this seem like a good distance? --
15:41:09 <Pinkbeast> "if you had two stations nearby in a city, passengers would sometimes journey to one and transfer out by the other." # which part of this is unclear, please?
15:41:15 <V453000> more far = better Ackmey
15:41:30 <V453000> well you have 2 stations
15:41:37 <V453000> each of them has some trains servicing it
15:41:55 <V453000> you expect each station to have some amount of passengers incoming
15:41:57 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> That's fine - albeit a pity about the expensive farmland in between - for "my first coal service"
15:42:00 <V453000> and they suddenly go to the other one?
15:42:04 <V453000> that makes no sense to me
15:42:18 <Pinkbeast> They go to the other one when in vanilla their journeys would be complete.
15:42:20 <Mazur> But it would make a profit, Ackmey, but slower than if you can find a pair farther apart.
15:42:25 <Ackmey> found a better one with no farmland
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15:42:39 <V453000> I see what you mean
15:42:47 <V453000> but well, still :) looks messy
15:42:57 <V453000> you either unload (deliver) or transfer
15:43:36 <V453000> and that still needs to "know" "I want to go there"
15:43:46 <Pinkbeast> Look, if you like the way passengers are just like lumps of coal, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just saying I don't share it.
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15:44:25 <Pinkbeast> Again, a good passenger distribution patch doesn't have to just be "I want to go there" (indeed cargodist isn't, although it has its own issues).
15:44:29 <V453000> I can live with that but you were giving example of something else than "I want to go there" which is involved in the "walking"
15:44:41 <Ackmey> Does the distance from an industry affect anything in regards to the station? (As long as it's in the catchment zone ofc)
15:44:53 <Pinkbeast> ack> No.
15:45:41 <Pinkbeast> But what you actually said was "if a passenger starts saying "I want there" it forces you to obey instead of be creative and try to make your own network" and the "walking" does nothing of the kind.
15:45:58 <V453000> no but it cant walk without I want there
15:46:06 <Pinkbeast> You can build a silly passenger network exactly as you can in vanilla if you please. The same is true of cargodist.
15:46:15 <V453000> not really
15:46:18 <Pinkbeast> Nope, cargodist could have walking without "I want there".
15:46:49 <Pinkbeast> In cargodist, cargoes are routed wherever you build capacity. An individual cargo has a destination in mind, but only because you built the route.
15:47:05 <Pinkbeast> ... personally I think this is absurd for passengers and mail but whatever floats your boat
15:47:13 <Ackmey> How far apart should I place depots along my track?
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15:47:39 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> One near the entrance to each station generally suffices... but servicing is a vexed question
15:47:51 <V453000> depends a lot
15:47:54 <Pinkbeast> In the cargodist world, there's nothing to obey. Cargo goes where you let it go.
15:48:01 <V453000> when you play for a long time you will see that less depots = better
15:48:07 <V453000> I personally build technically none
15:48:35 <V453000> Pinkbeast: then what is the difference between cargodist and vanilla in your opinion
15:49:18 <Pinkbeast> For passenger service, the obvious difference is that you don't have to fiddle around with transfer orders and the absurd case of busses returning empty and suchlike.
15:49:28 <V453000> yes
15:49:34 <Pinkbeast> And that passengers can make journeys involving multiple stations.
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15:49:49 <V453000> so you just connect things and the game solves it itself, just like PBS - you put a signal and dont bother, it will work somehow
15:50:02 <V453000> which takes away a lot from openttd
15:50:26 <Pinkbeast> And... as soon as you build a complex network it produces vast hordes of passengers, which goes rapidly from being a challenge to totally absurd, which is part of why I don't think it's right.
15:50:36 <Pinkbeast> What, don't tell me you don't like PBS?
15:50:47 <V453000> of course not
15:51:02 <V453000> well I like it but when I see what it makes people do, I dont like it
15:51:16 <Pinkbeast> You prefer the old-style massive cloverleaf junctions??
15:51:30 <V453000> nothing to do with PBS
15:51:36 <V453000> or an alternative
15:51:53 <Pinkbeast> Er, yes, that has everything to do with PBS, because the capacity of a vaguely prototypical junction is much greater with PBS.
15:52:18 <V453000> :)
15:52:21 * mrclnz is wrestling with the 'I want go there' done by yacd :P:P
15:52:46 <Pinkbeast> mrc> The main downside to YACD seems to be that it breaks FIRS supplies quite badly
15:53:05 <Pinkbeast> But also I don't think either "I want to go there" or "go where I'm sent" are right for passengers.
15:53:10 <V453000> simply said, PBS makes people build shit and never learn otherwise... so technically you could say nothing is greater with PBS
15:53:28 <Ackmey> Is it better to build my tracks in an L shape from one station to the other or to cut "diagonally" through tiles which would force me to bend the rail around when the terrain is cooperating?
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15:54:01 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> It depends - you have to learn what makes for fast train transit times. You can always build a cheap route now and upgrade it later
15:54:06 <mrclnz> Pinkbeast: I disabled the yacd part for cargo:P
15:54:13 <Pinkbeast> V453> What an utterly remarkable point of view.
15:55:20 <Pinkbeast> I honestly would have said before now that no-one could possibly remember the absurd junctions we had to build with block signalling with anything but horror.
15:56:24 <Mazur> Maybe "we" have gotten better at how to build them with block sigs, now?
15:56:37 <Pinkbeast> mrc> I mean, if it's 18xx and I build the Liverpool-Manchester railway, I should get a different number of pax to if I connect Liverpool-Manchester when the rest of the country is covered in railways.
15:57:43 <mrclnz> uhm *theorically* the estimator in yacd should provide for that, but I only started playing yesterday
15:58:15 <Pinkbeast> Mazur> There are definite limitations to what can be done with block signalling without resorting to the absurd cloverleafs with which the wiki is littered.
15:59:25 <Pinkbeast> yacd still seems to produce the "hm, more people are waiting at this station than the total population of the town" issue which unless it's Clapham Junction I don't believe
15:59:34 <Mazur> Pinkbeast, we have build numerous multi-line to multi-line T-junctions without a single cloverleaf from the moment I first joined.
15:59:52 <Mazur> We just don't seem to do crossroads anymore.
15:59:58 <Pinkbeast> Mazur> I'm guessing you're an openttd-coop person?
16:00:17 <Mazur> Whenever I can.
16:00:59 <Ackmey> Is it necessary for me to include maintenance orders in my train routes?
16:01:14 <Mazur> The Wiki is seriously outdated in many parts, in that is hasn't caught up with modern builds, though everything in it still stands, of course.
16:01:45 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> No, but it may be advisable
16:01:53 <Mazur> Ackmey, nope, unless you have a very long route and want to forestall some breakups.
16:02:22 <Mazur> Ackmey, most people disable breakdowns, as tghey feel it adds nothing but annoyance to the game.
16:02:41 <Ackmey> So on something say the length of the screencap I posted I wouldnt really need to?
16:02:52 <Mazur> And then maintenance is unnecessary.
16:03:01 <Mazur> Indeed.
16:03:04 <Ackmey> Right
16:03:06 <Ackmey> Okay thanks
16:03:08 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> On a route with no junctions, there's no need at all.
16:03:42 <Ackmey> So I built 2 coal routes
16:03:49 <Ackmey> Have very little money left
16:03:57 <Ackmey> Just have to sit around and wait for income now?
16:04:16 <Mazur> That, or borrow more if you can.
16:04:31 <Pinkbeast> Yes, are you at the maximum loan?
16:04:45 <Ackmey> No I didn't take out any more loan then I had when I started
16:04:46 <Mazur> But that would be useless unless you can build a full route.
16:05:29 <Mazur> Well, then for 200k more you should be able to add a similar second route and double your income.
16:05:43 <Pinkbeast> Er or unless (as I suspect) he may not have enough trains to service the existing routes fully
16:06:54 <Mazur> Hah, yes, I'm so accustomed to think of a complete route with at least three trains I'd forgotten he might not have them.
16:07:09 <Pinkbeast> Mazur> I still think you're going to go through a lot of dances to deal with the slightly silly fact that, under block signalling, two trains can't pass on parallel tracks if there's a join between them.
16:07:35 <Pinkbeast> ... obviously you know this fact, I'm not trying to tell it to you
16:07:42 * Mazur nods.
16:08:01 <Pinkbeast> And I don't see that coping with that restriction adds a lick of gameplay. It's just annoyance.
16:08:11 <Mazur> I was thinking if I could remember an occasion that troubled me, and I'm not sure.
16:08:40 <Ackmey> Would the coal mine tell me 100% transported if the route was fully serviced?
16:08:51 <Mazur> 80 at most.
16:08:59 <Mazur> AFAIK.
16:08:59 <Pinkbeast> I think the thing is that, correct me if I'm wrong, -coop games go straight from basic moneymaker to monstrously high capacity networks
16:09:21 <Mazur> Nope, we usually start with 2 lines or 3 at most.
16:09:30 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> No. It's fully serviced if there's never any cargo waiting at the station, with a train always "waiting for full load"
16:09:34 <michi_cc> Pinkbeast: The "too much passengers" problem isn't really a problem of cargo destinations. It's simply the fact that the cargo generation of the default houses is tuned for vanilla play.
16:09:38 <Mazur> And recently we ended up with a 7 line wide system.
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16:09:55 <Mazur> Three separate upgrades,
16:10:07 <mrclnz> Ackmey: the 100% transported is mostly impossible:P
16:10:12 <Mazur> Which is where the Coop part comes in.
16:10:31 <michi_cc> Which is why some of the patch packs add a pax reduction patch which somebody could easily add to YACD as well.
16:10:36 <Pinkbeast> michi> I don't think that's entirely true. If the cargo generation was fit for a large cargod?st network, it would be very hard to make money from the first pax line at all.
16:10:38 <Ackmey> so should I have my traisn set to wait for full load?
16:10:48 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> On anything but pax/mail, yes.
16:10:48 <Mazur> Yes.
16:11:21 <Mazur> Otherwise they'll be away from hte coal loading station all hte time transporting only a little.
16:11:47 <Mazur> Muchg more efficient to have them wait for a full load.
16:12:01 <Pinkbeast> Well, it's not quite that bad - if there aren't enough of them, there will be a full load to pick up every time
16:12:37 <Mazur> Pinkbeast, but then you lose cargo.
16:12:46 <Pinkbeast> michi> Part of the issue there, I think, is the scale of OpenTTD. If I build the first pax line it's not like Liverpool-Manchester at all, it's more like Whitby-Grosmont
16:12:48 <Mazur> Not much, I give you, but still.
16:13:14 <mrclnz> Pinkbeast: I agree, with YACD it's very difficult to have profit since you need a lot of station and you get few PAX
16:13:42 <Mazur> I'm off to watch T.
16:13:46 <Mazur> ~\o/~
16:14:39 <Ackmey> Ahhh, my stations were much too close together for 2 trains
16:14:58 <Ackmey> I've got both of them sitting waiting, one's at 40% load the other's got nothing
16:15:01 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> You always in practice want 2, so one can always be loading. If they make a profit, don't sweat it.
16:15:18 <Pinkbeast> If you only had one your rating may have dropped, reducing the available cargo. See how it shakes out.
16:15:30 <Ackmey> Okay
16:15:40 <michi_cc> Pinkbeast: Substitute cargo generation with vehicle capacity or whatever. In the end it's simple mathematics. A three stop circle route with a capacity (amount/time) can use the whole capacity to transport pax from each stop. For a simplified cargo cargodest where each stop produces 50/50 for the other two stations, the incoming vehicle will still be half full and so outgoing capacity of each stop is only half of vanilla.
16:16:59 <Pinkbeast> michi> But what I'm saying is that because of that the effective capacity drops radically over time as I build a network, far more quickly than vehicle capacity increases.
16:17:24 <Pinkbeast> So if the number of pax is appropriate once the full network is built, it was very hard for me not to have gross overcapacity in the beginning...
16:17:42 <Ackmey> Pinkbeast: Yeah it works fine actually, the second train gets back to the mines just as the first reaches 75% load so there's not much waiting around and there's allways a train loading
16:18:15 <Pinkbeast> ... and this is exacerbated by the way that I can't actually build an initial line connecting two very large cities.
16:19:10 <Pinkbeast> "Start with coal", yes, but if I am using something like 2cc or UKRS2 my first locomotive is only fit for short-distance pax operations
16:19:29 <Pinkbeast> michi> To be clear, I'm not complaining about YACD here. I just think it's a hard problem
16:20:38 <Pinkbeast> ... and appreciate that my Holy Grail, what I feel would be an ideal flavour of passenger operations, is _very_ hard and something I should work on myself if I care.
16:23:37 <Ackmey> So now that I've got two full coal runs and 200k what should I do?
16:24:11 <Pinkbeast> How big's the map?
16:24:39 <Ackmey> 256*256
16:25:18 <Pinkbeast> What I generally do in vanilla is hook up every other coalmine (to the same power station) and then do the same for other industry types
16:26:12 <Ackmey> so a coalmine from way the hell on the other side of the map, hook it up to that same power station?
16:26:45 <Pinkbeast> Well, maybe. The downside is it's a cheese, the "this coal is from India, it must be valuable" cheese
16:27:21 <Pinkbeast> On the other hand, building and servicing the line and particularly managing the station at the power station will be challenging.
16:27:37 <Pinkbeast> Or... are those 5-tile trains overpowered? Try running longer ones.
16:27:57 <Ackmey> Well they're getting all the coal into the power station
16:28:03 <Ackmey> They're a bit slow though
16:28:07 <Ackmey> the jubilee has trouble on hills
16:28:27 <Pinkbeast> OK, so these trains are long enough, and this makes route construction in hilly country a challenge.
16:28:57 <Ackmey> The longer the line the more trains I need too
16:29:09 <Ackmey> and what will be the hard part about managing my station at the plant?
16:29:43 <Pinkbeast> Eventually a _lot_ of trains are going to be arriving, and you want to get them all in and out without getting in each other's way
16:30:15 <Ackmey> but theyre all on seperate tracks?
16:30:47 <Pinkbeast> Well, that makes the power station station(s) take up a lot of space.
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16:31:16 <Ackmey> but trains wont even enter a track that another train is already on will they?
16:31:57 <Pinkbeast> No, they won't.
16:32:56 <Pinkbeast> Unless you remove signals with trains approaching them or explicitly order trains to pass red signals, you'll never have a shunt
16:33:12 <Pinkbeast> ... which is good because any shunt completely destroys both trains blocking the tracks for about forever
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16:34:59 <Ackmey> Eek signals
16:35:05 <Ackmey> is there an option to hide trees?
16:35:08 <Ackmey> So damn annoying
16:35:21 <Ackmey> found it
16:35:23 <Ackmey> :P
16:35:25 <Pinkbeast> Yes, there are transparency options.
16:35:40 <Pinkbeast> But bear in mind that local authorities love trees _more than life itself_.
16:36:04 <Ackmey> well I dont have a choice if I'm laying down line
16:36:06 <blathijs> Pinkbeast: There's no need to see trees to plant more, right?
16:36:07 <blathijs> :-)
16:36:18 <Pinkbeast> So if you are building near a town, try and avoid trees. Which you can't, because the whole sodding map is covered in them.
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16:36:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the trick is to build your station first :p
16:37:00 <Pinkbeast> Eddi> Yeah.
16:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (or better: a whole bus/tram service)
16:37:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22843 /trunk/src/saveload/ai_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#4748]: Harden savegame load against too many ai config settings (monoid)
16:37:43 <Pinkbeast> Ackmey> "eek signals"> well, as soon as you run more than 2 trains on one of those lines, you're going to want signals :-)
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16:39:21 <Ackmey> Oops >.>
16:39:33 <Ackmey> I just made a 3line parallel route
16:39:46 <Ackmey> No service in the middle line
16:42:33 <Pinkbeast> Er, are you running one train per line?
16:42:53 <Ackmey> as of now yes
16:43:02 <Ackmey> I take it that's bad
16:43:48 <Pinkbeast> Well, it rapidly involves a prohibitive number of lines and platforms.
16:44:51 <Ackmey> so
16:45:08 <Ackmey> I should have one line going from any given coal mine to any given factory
16:45:12 <Ackmey> that branch out at both ends?
16:45:40 <Pinkbeast> Well, say the production of one of your coal mines increases fifteenfold. So you need 30 trains to service it where now you have 2. What then?
16:46:23 <Ackmey> Right
16:46:33 <Pinkbeast> Unless production gets enormous or you're building junctions and routing multiple industries' trains down the same line, the usual thing is to build two lines - one for trains running one way, one for trains running the other
16:48:43 <Ackmey> Okay
16:48:53 <Pinkbeast> and may help. Start at the bottom of the second document, it describes a lot of intermediate stages you don't need to bother with if you have two lots of line already.
16:49:12 <Ackmey> Thanks
16:49:40 <Pinkbeast> But basically:
16:50:31 <Pinkbeast> Always use path signals, the rightmost kind. Use one-way signals (the very rightmost with a board on) only to make sure trains use the right track.
16:51:02 <Pinkbeast> At the exit from a station you want path signals facing the platforms, then a crossover, then one-way signals to make sure trains use the right track.
16:51:16 <Pinkbeast> Then add signals along the route to let trains go closer together.
16:51:56 <Pinkbeast> Oh, earlier I said "Unless you remove signals with trains approaching them or explicitly order trains to pass red signals, you'll never have a shunt". Add to that "or build track in front of trains that lets them hit each other"
16:52:14 <Ackmey> So a train entering any given part of a station can ecit wherever it wants?
16:52:35 <Pinkbeast> No, and I don't understand why you think I mean that.
16:52:43 <Ackmey> No I mean
16:53:09 <Ackmey> Yeah, nevermind
16:53:22 <Ackmey> My bad
16:55:16 <Pinkbeast> shows a large passenger station on this principle.
16:55:35 <Pinkbeast> Depot at the entrance, one-way signal on each line, giant crossover to let trains in and out.
16:55:37 <Ackmey> So i nthat picture
16:55:45 <Ackmey> There are two one way lines
16:55:52 <Ackmey> And 4 trains can use the system
16:55:53 <Ackmey> Correct?
16:56:22 <Pinkbeast> 4 trains can be in the station at any given time, yes
16:57:30 <Pinkbeast> is the same without the wrinkle of having 4 platforms
16:58:05 <Ackmey> 4 trains can use that??
16:58:17 <Pinkbeast> No, only 2 can use that at once.
16:58:32 <Pinkbeast> is a "ro-ro" station, which you'll end up wanting later for higher capacity.
16:59:24 <Ackmey> That one seems simpler
16:59:32 <Pinkbeast> Simpler, but takes up more space.
16:59:52 <Pinkbeast> Particularly once trains get faster, when they can't turn sharp corners without slowing down.
17:00:14 <Ackmey> How does one assign starting money in a scenario? I'm gonna practice this without the headache of trees and terrain everywhere
17:00:26 <Pinkbeast> I wouldn't do that if I were you.
17:00:49 <Pinkbeast> You've got a real network now - it's more fun with a real challenge to meet.
17:01:15 <Ackmey> I'm just going to mess around for a few mins until I understand the signal and merging mechanics
17:01:20 <Ackmey> And then do a real game
17:01:36 <Pinkbeast> IN that case you can start a new game and use cheats to give yourself a giant bushel of money
17:02:33 <Ackmey> Great
17:02:43 <Pinkbeast> Also if you've built a passenger station as far into a town as possible, as you'll appreciate, turning it into a ro-ro station needs you to demolish vast chunks of town for the return loop of track. It's not very practical.
17:03:34 <Ackmey> Yeah
17:03:51 <Pinkbeast> ... you can also then use the magic bulldozer cheat to demolish everything and flatten the entire landscape, and now you can play with signals to your heart's content
17:04:39 <Pinkbeast> But a path signal is quite simple. A train will wait at it until it has clear track ahead to the next signal it wants to go to (or to the destination).
17:04:42 <Ackmey> I just used a blank scenario
17:05:34 <Pinkbeast> I find wrestling the scenario creator to let me do stuff is actually slower than cheating up a pile of money but it's up to you
17:05:50 <Ackmey> I'll just cheat money into the scenario
17:06:43 <Pinkbeast> The main gotcha with path signals only comes once you're building junctions; you don't want a train to wait somewhere it blocks crossing track
17:09:19 <peter1138> well that's no different to block signals
17:10:34 <Pinkbeast> Um. I would say that it is, because there is no way with ordinary block signals to prevent a train from waiting somewhere it blocks crossing track
17:12:11 <Pinkbeast> Consider
17:12:38 <Pinkbeast> With PBS, removing that signal helps. A train doesn't enter that area until it can advance to clear the crossing line.
17:12:49 <Pinkbeast> But with block-based signals it doesn't. Even after it clears the line it still blocks it
17:13:26 <Ackmey> What's the difference between electric and semaphore signals?
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17:13:54 <Pinkbeast> _Entirely_ cosmetic.
17:14:04 <hifi> could I concult in pm with someone who worked with the TTD asm before OpenTTD had everything reimplemented?
17:14:18 <Pinkbeast> There is no gameplay difference whatsoever between a semaphore signal and the corresponding electric signal.
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17:15:02 <hifi> CCHyper: first
17:15:03 <Pinkbeast> I build semaphore signals until I start to build electric rails; I then build electric signals on new electric rails and anywhere I rework signalling, which gives a nice appearance.
17:16:04 <Pinkbeast> Bear in mind that signalling is grossly unprototypical; there are no caution signals, nor any way to make semaphore signals work with distant/home as controlled from individual boxes
17:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "beer in mind" is a good idea :p
17:17:29 <Pinkbeast> It is about pub o'clock
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17:17:32 <peter1138> hifi, you won't find anyone here
17:17:41 <hifi> no? surprising
17:18:01 <planetmaker> it was never written in asm... ;-)
17:18:29 <hifi> uhm
17:18:57 <CCHyper> hmm
17:19:24 <hifi> you be trollin', right?
17:19:26 <__ln__> what wasn't?
17:19:47 <hifi> didn't openttd come from reverse-engineering the decompiled game?
17:20:26 <Pinkbeast> Certainly TTDP. But the odds of finding a TTDP hacker randomly on-channel are pretty low.
17:20:39 <andythenorth> eeennng
17:21:16 <Ackmey> How do you rotate a one-way signal?
17:21:21 <Pinkbeast> Click it
17:21:28 <Pinkbeast> ... with the signal gui active
17:22:19 <hifi> mm, any way to contact one? we're probably going to reverse-engineer a win32 game but we need some starting points and possible tools so thought OTTD would be a good place to ask as it has the same roots
17:22:38 <Pinkbeast> I would ask on the TTDP section of the forums, but not hold out much hope.
17:22:39 <Ackmey> thanks
17:22:45 <planetmaker> hifi: ask in #opendune
17:22:58 <planetmaker> they did that recently and successfully and not like >6 years ago
17:23:10 <hifi> but they had a 16 bit game
17:23:21 <planetmaker> what makes you think ttd is different?
17:23:42 <hifi> oh, crap
17:23:47 <andythenorth> planetmaker: hello
17:23:51 <hifi> forgot it didn't have a win32 port
17:23:53 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth :-)
17:23:56 <__ln__> hifi: are you sure reverse-engineering is the right way to go?
17:24:13 <hifi> __ln__: what would make you ask that?
17:24:18 <andythenorth> planetmaker: comments wrt supplies? Or are you sick of it? I think there might be some wisdom in his points...
17:24:19 <hifi> there are countless crappy remakes
17:24:40 <planetmaker> I haven't followed things this week. Anything new?
17:24:41 <hifi> what we want is the original game recompilable and portable
17:24:43 <Pinkbeast> Which win32 game, OOI?
17:24:48 <hifi> Red Alert
17:24:50 <CCHyper> RA95
17:24:50 <planetmaker> But honestly I'm still quite fed up with the supply discussion
17:24:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker: some comments in the FIRS thread wrt names is all
17:25:04 <planetmaker> it's going circles. for the nth time now already
17:25:19 <andythenorth> maybe because it confuses too many people?
17:25:30 <Terkhen> I doubt that
17:25:34 <planetmaker> ^
17:25:39 <andythenorth> hmm
17:25:45 <Terkhen> have you checked the amount of responses you get whenever you suggest to remove supplies?
17:25:49 <__ln__> hifi: because OpenTTD is plagued by a lot of limitations that exist because "it was that way in the original game".
17:26:01 <hifi> __ln__: we want those limitations at first
17:26:03 <hifi> at least
17:26:03 <Terkhen> it's just that the vast majority of players that understand supplies don't feel the need to post about them
17:26:04 <planetmaker> IMHO all has been said. And... I'd just repeat yet another time what I think is right as those "points" IMHO don't hit home, either
17:26:06 <andythenorth> oh removing is not happening - assuming we can devise a better algorithm (I think we can)
17:26:16 <andythenorth> this was just the naming issue
17:26:21 <andythenorth> sometimes these long-running arguments come to a good conclusion
17:26:24 * Rubidium wonders how many of the current OpenTTD devs have actually read/worked on understanding original TTD code
17:26:38 * Terkhen wouldn't be able to understand a single line of the original code :P
17:26:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the unified name IMHO is a selling point. I thought I made that quite clear
17:26:42 <CCHyper> was wondering that too
17:26:43 <__ln__> hifi: it may be hard to change those later on.
17:26:51 <Pinkbeast> What __ln__ said. In particular, consider Simutrans's underground layers and the contrast with OTTD
17:27:02 <CCHyper> are any of the original devs still about?
17:27:05 <andythenorth> so his suggestion is "farm production boosters" etc
17:27:09 <andythenorth> which isn't bad actually
17:27:14 <planetmaker> sounds aweful
17:27:16 <hifi> __ln__: better than crappy new engines that don't follow the original game at all :)
17:27:16 <Terkhen> ^
17:27:17 <Rubidium> CCHyper: the original dev isn't
17:27:22 <Rubidium> @seen ludde
17:27:22 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: I have not seen ludde.
17:27:31 <andythenorth> so the crowd votes against "farm production boosters" ?
17:27:37 <Terkhen> I do
17:27:39 <planetmaker> I do
17:27:39 <andythenorth> I am flexible on these
17:27:43 <Rubidium> so... not seen in the last 3 years
17:27:51 <__ln__> hifi: don't make it crappy then.
17:27:55 <andythenorth> I have to allow for English -> translation
17:27:55 <Pinkbeast> "Boosters" doesn't mean that, as a noun - it's a bit of a rocket.
17:28:12 <hifi> __ln__: try not to, thats why we want to ask around first to get a good stat
17:28:14 <hifi> start
17:28:16 <andythenorth> what makes obvious sense to me in UK English seems to really trip up some people
17:28:23 <andythenorth> especially those whose languages are more....rigourous
17:28:26 <Terkhen> his stance seems to be: either realistic names or names that seem to be taken from a shoot em up
17:28:46 <andythenorth> aren't these things almost impossible to translate into german etc?
17:28:50 <andythenorth> is the impression I got
17:28:52 <mrclnz> Terkhen: IIRC original TTD was assembly:D
17:28:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I have - IMHO - found nice translations
17:29:06 * Terkhen wouldn't have a clue about how to translate booster
17:29:06 <planetmaker> it's not the easiest. But so what?
17:29:09 <Pinkbeast> hifi> Write an engine in which the original game can be implemented is surely the answer
17:29:09 <andythenorth> my german ist nichts so gut :)
17:29:12 <planetmaker> Translation is never a 1:1 thing
17:29:15 <Terkhen> mrclnz: yes, and?
17:29:33 <mrclnz> Terkhen: well, there is not very much to *read* :D
17:29:41 <Terkhen> of course it has
17:29:54 <Pinkbeast> I have to admit, I think he's hung up on trying to translate "supplies" rather than pick a word that gives the same idea in German.
17:29:55 <hifi> Pinkbeast: we really want to go this way :)
17:29:56 <CCHyper> i have a highly marked up database of the C&C Red Alert code, but limited class structures
17:30:02 <__ln__> mrclnz: you could say the same about french, and many people would still disagree.
17:30:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth: in German translation there I cannot translate it always with the same word for 'supplies', but yes, that's it
17:30:43 <andythenorth> would it be easier for players to call it something better?
17:31:03 <andythenorth> I have no love for the supplies word, I'm just not smart enough to improve it further
17:31:07 * mrclnz just being unlucky... the only refinery on the map is on a mountain:D
17:31:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: naming it different in English doesn't help translations
17:31:23 <CCHyper> thanks anyway guys!
17:31:35 <planetmaker> and in English "supplies" is an awesome word for this purpose
17:31:53 <planetmaker> Translations should be no issue at all on how something in English is called
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17:32:07 <planetmaker> it's the translator's task. Not yours to worry about
17:32:25 <planetmaker> only lazy or unimaginative translators complain about the original being changed
17:32:37 <planetmaker> s/being/needing a/
17:32:47 <Ammler> "Verbrauchsmaterial" :-)
17:33:03 <andythenorth> unimaginative? highly likely. This game probably has a relatively high proportion of people who have something like an autism spectrum disorder
17:33:13 <Ammler> how did you translate it?
17:33:22 <andythenorth> trains are a characteristic autistic obsession
17:33:49 <__ln__> for the sake of argument, let's assume ludde had designed the world map data structure from scratch, allowing building underground, below sea level, etc. a lot of things would be better.
17:33:52 <planetmaker> Ammler: yes, it's one option
17:34:00 <planetmaker> esp. for manufacturing supplies :-)
17:34:10 <mrclnz> __ln__: that's calling for an heavy refactoring...
17:34:25 <mrclnz> it's like going from doom to quake:D
17:34:31 <Ammler> ah well, if you have 2 words in english, it should be easy to translate
17:35:20 <andythenorth> Verbrauchsmaterial = ??
17:35:28 <planetmaker> supplies?
17:35:35 <mrclnz> Ammler: read the 'gettext' manual, it says a lot about the difficulties in translating/localizing
17:35:39 <planetmaker> expendables?
17:35:46 <Pinkbeast> consumables?
17:35:55 <planetmaker> probably better one^
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17:37:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth: anyway, I don't feel like answering in the supply issue... it'd show that I'm annoyed, it'd repeat what I wrote, it'd have no effect
17:37:21 <planetmaker> thus: pointless
17:37:34 <andythenorth> I had no answer either
17:37:42 <andythenorth> either he's right or wrong at this point
17:37:46 <andythenorth> there's not much debate left
17:37:48 <planetmaker> thus I decided: let the issue rest. Pikka way
17:37:52 <planetmaker> exactly
17:38:07 <planetmaker> and do what I consider right ;-)
17:38:14 <andythenorth> if an improvement can be found, I'd accept it. But we don't think the suggestion is an improvement
17:38:16 <planetmaker> i.e.: change nothing there :-P
17:38:24 <andythenorth> and vehicle authors need to stop fricking whining about those cargos
17:38:38 <planetmaker> also only unimaginative ones whine there ;-)
17:38:53 <planetmaker> having the option to draw it as this or that is IMHO nice and a bonus
17:39:04 <planetmaker> and not a backdraw... as he sees it
17:39:10 <planetmaker> thus we principally cannot agree
17:39:34 <andythenorth> hmm
17:39:43 * andythenorth might just leave it then
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17:42:42 <planetmaker> with the current way I could, for example, make a train set which displays FMSP randomly as fertilizer bags, vehicles, seeds, oil cans, lumber pieces,... whatever. Nice colourful train
17:42:52 <planetmaker> detailing that cargo would spoil this joy
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17:44:00 <Terkhen> unless the vehicle set author does not want to think about what he should be drawing
17:44:02 <andythenorth> sensible vehicle authors draw crates :P
17:44:12 <andythenorth> and ship more newgrfs
17:44:18 <Pinkbeast> crates> "first-person shooter supplies"?
17:44:19 <Terkhen> but yes, crates :P
17:44:42 <Terkhen> I considered OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles feature complete as soon as it had crates
17:45:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22844 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt greek.txt romanian.txt russian.txt):
17:45:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by habell
17:45:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 1 changes by kyrm
17:45:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by kkmic
17:45:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:35 * Terkhen is surprised by the crazy amount of things you can do with the custom profit callback
17:46:00 <planetmaker> bbl
17:46:08 <Terkhen> enjoy, planetmaker
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18:50:10 <perk111> can you help me pls? I'm trying to run a dedicated server on Linux, but can't make openttd 1.1.2 to see grf files and sets. I tried ~/.openttd/data, ~/.openttd/content_download/data, openttd binary directory, but none of this works. I used content_download directory from windows version
18:51:32 <Terkhen> what do you mean with "nothing works"? the server runs but it detects no NewGRFs? the server is not able to run at all?
18:52:12 <perk111> Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt.
18:52:25 <perk111> and lot of missing grfs errors
18:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> then you forgot to copy something over from windows
18:53:04 <Terkhen> yes
18:53:23 <Terkhen> as the error says, you are missing the base graphics set, check that section of the readme
18:54:40 <perk111> Oh the windows installer copies opengfx to program files
18:54:46 <perk111> so I missed it
18:54:57 <perk111> but is doesn't explain missing grfs error
18:55:13 <perk111> ini: ignoring invalid NewGRF 'ecs_town_vector-1.1.219jun2011\ecstown.grf': not found
18:55:13 <perk111> ini: ignoring invalid NewGRF 'ecs_construction_vector-b527dec2010\ecsconstw.grf': not found
18:55:13 <perk111> ini: ignoring invalid NewGRF 'ecs_basic_vector_ii-1.1.219jun2011\ecsbas2.grf': not found
18:55:14 <perk111> ini: ignoring invalid NewGRF 'ecs_chemical_vector_ii-1.1.219jun2011\ecschem2.grf': not found
18:55:14 <perk111> ini: ignoring invalid NewGRF 'ecs_agricultural_vector-1.1.219jun2011\ecsagri.grf': not found
18:55:15 <perk111> like that
18:55:27 <Terkhen> \ is used by windows
18:55:29 <Terkhen> linux uses /
18:55:37 <Terkhen> therefore, your openttd.cfg is now invalid
18:55:57 <Terkhen> you can either replace all entries of currently selected NewGRFs by hand or remove them all and select them again
18:56:01 <perk111> oh thanks
18:56:29 <perk111> I have no X on server, so by hand is my option
19:00:16 <perk111> It worked, thanks a lot
19:00:49 <Terkhen> yw
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19:10:13 <Wolf01> hello
19:12:33 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
19:20:13 <appe> 64x64 maps <3.
19:21:19 <mrclnz> appe: how do you fit stuff in there?:P
19:21:30 <andythenorth> why sugar cane deserves it's own cargo label in FIRS:
19:23:12 <appe> mrclnz: i don't, actually. i realized making small systems work well makes the game better
19:23:21 <appe> at least for me, that doesnt really know how to play openttd properly.
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20:07:59 <Terkhen> good night
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20:37:54 <Wolf01> 'night all
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20:43:17 <pjpe> what do the MKCOLOUR_XXXX MKCOLOUR_XXXY and so on macros in smallmap_gui do?
20:43:29 <pjpe> it times a colour by a bit mask but i don't understand why
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20:53:48 <LordAro> goood morning!
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20:54:46 <appe> i dont get it
20:54:54 <appe> where do i send goods in sub-tropical?
20:55:15 <Alberth> sufficient large towns afaik
20:56:20 <appe> bigger then on the normal maps?
20:56:32 <appe> (or what ever you call the first type of map)
20:57:02 <Alberth> not sure, I think not, but it has been a long time that I moved goods on such maps
20:57:37 <Alberth> pjpe: filtering colours
20:58:43 <appe> ah, ok.
20:59:31 <Alberth> pjpe: 0x100 * x == (x << 8)
21:00:28 <pjpe> ok
21:00:32 <pjpe> what does it mean in terms of rgb
21:00:48 <Alberth> nothing, x is a 8 bit colour index
21:01:10 <pjpe> yeah now i'm confused again
21:01:45 <Alberth> the MKCOLOUR macro creates a 4 pixel wide 'list' of colours to blit to the screen
21:02:31 <LordAro> Alberth: how's this?
21:03:07 <Alberth> pjpe: take a screen shot of a smallmap window, and enlarge it enough to see the individual pixels
21:04:49 <Alberth> LordAro: this->max_str_length is not initialized to 0
21:06:02 <Alberth> loop at lines 156-159 can become this->max_str_length = max(this->max_str_length, GetStringBoundingBox(this->readme_text_lines[i]).width)
21:07:00 <LordAro> done :)
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21:09:33 <Alberth> 252 may be wrong if "\n\0" at the end, at first sight
21:10:17 <Alberth> stripping of non-printable chars is gone?
21:11:14 <Yexo> it'll just add an empty string as last line
21:11:27 <Yexo> which essentially is the same as the readme file if it ends with a newline
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21:12:57 <Alberth> yeah, nothing goes really wrong
21:13:46 <Alberth> It looks very interesting, I must say. Was about to go to bed, so no time now.
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21:15:09 <LordAro> yeah, stripping is gone, until i work out how to do it with smallvectors
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21:15:31 <LordAro> (you can thank rub idium for the samllvectors :) )
21:15:41 * Alberth makes a note of the paste number
21:16:19 <LordAro> only major thing not working is the scrollbars
21:16:29 <LordAro> ..but i'll bug you about that later :)
21:17:10 <Alberth> one way you can do it, is in two stages. first strip the stuff you don't want, next look for \n and append to the small vector
21:18:34 * LordAro nods
21:21:03 <Alberth> replacing the strchr() call by a loop to look for the \n character is probably best for understanding how to merge those loops
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21:21:39 <appe> steve jobs is dead
21:21:56 <SpComb> lies
21:22:13 <pjpe>
21:22:15 <pjpe> wrong
21:23:14 <Alberth> LordAro: hmm, line 240 might modify one character before 'this->readme_text' if it starts with a \n
21:23:59 <appe> :D
21:24:41 <Alberth> LordAro: anyways, nice job. Will look at it in more detail in the weekend probably
21:24:50 <LordAro> thank you :)
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21:28:08 <LordAro> pjpe: html source comment: "This page is by no means a good method of seeing if Steve Jobs is dead"
21:28:17 <pjpe> good enough for me
21:28:44 <LordAro> :) especially considering 'Nope' is hardcoded
21:52:40 <planetmaker> good night
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23:00:30 <LordAro> night
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23:09:00 <Ackmey> Hey guys
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