IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-08-10
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00:13:58 <KittenKoder> Hmm, anyone interested in seeing the progress on my maglev track?
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00:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone interested in metaquestions?
00:14:56 <KittenKoder> I can be annoying, yes I can.
00:15:13 <KittenKoder> Need a break from the work.
00:16:09 <KittenKoder> The default maglev trains seem to be aligned differently than the others.
00:20:48 <pjpe> is there some way to use the opengfx cursor but normal graphics for everything else
00:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but it involves grfcodec
00:23:31 <pjpe> i'm too used to the windows graphics
00:23:40 <pjpe> just wish i could have the cursor and toyland
00:23:46 <pjpe> god toy land is shit in the original
00:24:34 <Eddi|zuHause> replacing just toyland should be easier
00:25:46 <KittenKoder> Mars replacement with new vectors would be nice. :p
00:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> edit the original_windows.obg file, and replace the toyland file line with the one from opengfx.obg
00:26:11 <Eddi|zuHause> save that under a different name
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02:31:30 <pjpe> where are the sprites for the auto track cursor
02:31:37 <pjpe> and the level land sprite?
02:31:42 <pjpe> they don't seem to be in with the rest of the cursors
02:42:47 <KittenKoder> I don't think I get your question, but the features were add-ons and they are probably in another image file.
02:44:04 <KittenKoder> But in the openGFX 0.3.4 they are with the normal ones.
02:44:19 <pjpe> and that complicates things
02:46:46 <pjpe> was taking the lazy way out and just replacing the old cursor in the original file with the opengfx cursor
02:46:52 <pjpe> now i might have to figure grfs out
02:47:25 <KittenKoder> If you're just replacing sprites, it's not so tough.
02:48:02 <pjpe> sonofabitch that's a good idea
02:48:19 <KittenKoder> You mean multiplayer?
02:48:31 <KittenKoder> I don't know anything about that aspect.
02:49:03 <KittenKoder> I think some GRFs have no effect and others do ... but not sure what's what.
02:50:22 <KittenKoder> Heh, found the development xcf for the trees.
02:50:38 <KittenKoder> They cheated with the snow. >.<
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06:39:43 <planetmaker> pjpe: you could most probably make a newgrf which just replaces those sprites
06:41:34 <pjpe> but would it work in multiplayer on a server without it
06:41:39 <planetmaker> GUI sprites are "interesting" as some of them are in the "main" base set file, those which were not in the original TTD are in the "extra" one
06:42:03 <planetmaker> a newgrf only replacing gui sprites could be used as static newgrf, so yes
06:42:54 <pjpe> well that would be easier
06:43:45 <planetmaker> they only can be activated by editing the cfg, though. There's no nice GUI interface for static grf config so far
06:47:40 <planetmaker> of course it replaces more than just the cursors, but it might give you the idea
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12:17:04 <andythenorth> how can I svn up without it failing on existing files?
12:18:16 <andythenorth> specifically 'failed to add [yxz]
12:18:18 <andythenorth> a versioned directory of the same name already exists
12:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> make a new checkout
12:21:53 <andythenorth> that's the third time I'm trying to do that today
12:22:02 <andythenorth> basically the connection stalls when I'm using co
12:22:10 <andythenorth> and svn can't recover that :P
12:22:30 <Ammler> you know, openttd is available as hg?
12:22:44 <andythenorth> this is a work thing
12:22:49 <andythenorth> we're not allowed to use hg
12:23:02 <Ammler> there is also hgsubversion
12:23:11 <andythenorth> this is a good point
12:26:59 <Alberth> Ammler: but that also suffers if your connection is not reliable
12:27:17 <Ammler> Alberth: only for commit
12:27:37 <andythenorth> a more familar interface won't help my issue that svn can't get a coherent checkout?
12:28:03 <Alberth> Ammler: nope, also for creating a local copy, I tried hgsvn-ing the corsix-th svn repo and it failed
12:28:24 <Ammler> I have no issues with svn.openttd.org
12:29:10 <Ammler> oh, hgsvn != hgsubversion
12:30:02 <Alberth> my mistake, I mean hgsubversion, where you can give a svn url to hg
12:30:35 <Ammler> and you need a svn connection to make "hg up"?
12:32:19 <Alberth> I was making a clone of the svn repo from scratch, which means pulling 2000+ revisions. Due to network(?) issues, hg lost track of progress, and decided to rollback to nothing :( I tried it 2 or 3 times
12:33:22 <Ammler> you should hg clone to a low rev
12:33:53 <Alberth> good idea, will try that
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14:01:43 <Tom|cz> hmm I was browsing wiki and stuff and I want download dedicated server for OTTD but all I found was stable version and beta and nightly on web :-/
14:01:55 <Tom|cz> nothing about dedicated server download
14:02:02 <Tom|cz> can someone throw me a link ?
14:03:02 <Alberth> there are not enough dedicated servers to build dedicated binaries for them
14:03:22 <Alberth> you can either use a normal one, or build a dedicated version yourself
14:04:30 <Alberth> you can use the normal version with -D you probably still need to install the display libs in that case
14:05:03 <Tom|cz> I wanted to host it as my minecraft server on linux :D without any graphic or anything
14:05:36 <Alberth> -D will not open a window afaik
14:06:45 <glx> Alberth: but it still need display libs if exe is linked to them
14:06:47 <Tom|cz> oh seems working just set up some stuf
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14:07:26 <Alberth> glx: I mentioned that: "..still need to install the display libs in that case"
14:08:49 <Tom|cz> seems there is no need ... or maybe it uses the librarys wich I used to host garry's mod server
14:09:17 <Alberth> Ammler: it still failed, but it did not rollback, so I could continue
14:09:33 <Alberth> Tom|cz: ldd openttd will tell you which libraries it uses
14:09:45 <glx> Tom|cz: you probably have sdl and x libs installed
14:10:26 <Tom|cz> yea they were needed for Gmod :-/ that weirdness needed graphic library too
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15:28:35 * andythenorth experiments with trial of new photoshop
15:28:39 <andythenorth> expect swearing :P
15:42:14 <supermop> cs5 took me some getting used to but i am glad i switched
15:43:40 <andythenorth> appears to be a little faster than CS 1
15:44:28 <andythenorth> possibly due to being compatible with intel 64 bit, instead of running in a crazy big-endian-little-endian run time compatibility layer :P
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15:47:00 <supermop> do you use anything else, or just photosho?
15:51:54 <Alberth> grfcodec and openttd quite likely :)
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17:02:12 <Ammler> Alberth: yes, of course it fails like before...
17:02:30 <Ammler> but you already found the advantage :-)
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17:45:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22732 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt romanian.txt):
17:45:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 36 changes by dzhins
17:45:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 30 changes by kkmic, tonny
17:45:37 <Eddi|zuHause> turns out two frigates and a caravel are not enough to besiege a city.
17:53:37 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: when you say that i am immediately reminded of seadogs. but is it something like eve?
17:57:46 <LordAro> heard that before, _verry_ clever people
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17:59:09 <LordAro> will almost certainly end up in tesco, or homeless :L
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18:30:52 <__ln__> anyone from this channel been looting and vandalising lately?
18:33:23 <andythenorth> I had a look at the devastation resulting from riots
18:36:39 * Rubidium just wonders how hard it is to arrest everyone; just surround the riot with loads of army personel with their lovely rifles
18:37:03 <Rubidium> I guess the only problem is that they don't have enough bendy busses to ship them to some secure-ish location
18:38:32 <Rubidium> and if they really have balls, tell them they're held on grounds of terrorism
18:38:44 <__ln__> There might be some moral and legal restrictions against using the army against your own people.
18:43:22 <andythenorth> we don't have the army on UK streets
18:44:06 * KittenKoder sends the US army to the UK streets.
18:44:35 <andythenorth> what are the army going to do? Shoot?
18:44:59 <KittenKoder> Hmm .... don't know.
18:45:15 <KittenKoder> I'm USian, I don't think that far ahead.
18:45:50 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just those rubbery things
18:46:04 <Rubidium> or the lovely tear gas or even sleeping gas ;)
18:46:09 <andythenorth> the police could use those
18:46:18 <andythenorth> you don't need soldiers for that
18:46:20 <KittenKoder> Your police could use guns.
18:46:35 <andythenorth> still the problem of shooting people
18:46:45 <__ln__> KittenKoder: Somebody could be hurt.
18:46:56 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the police *could*, but then the police will have to 'live' with that image
18:47:21 <__ln__> And the whole situation kind of escalated from the police shooting an innocent man, so shooting more people might not be the best way.
18:47:23 <andythenorth> police shooting cause some serious constitutional and law & order problems
18:47:42 <andythenorth> the government would lose consent from a significant proportion of uk population
18:47:46 <KittenKoder> Police get a bum rap everywhere.
18:47:56 <andythenorth> a significant minority would probably take to the streets in protest
18:47:57 <Rubidium> therefor: declare war, declare them terrorist and use the army ;)
18:48:06 <andythenorth> or just arrest them, using the police
18:48:11 <andythenorth> it's not that big a deal
18:48:25 <andythenorth> if they come for my house, it's probably a bigger deal
18:48:28 <KittenKoder> Brits are like sailors from Canada.
18:48:39 <__ln__> Arrest them and let them go after 24 or 48 hours or whatever time someone can be kept arrested?
18:48:52 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the 'problem' is that they need to quarantine the area and arrest everybody, not only those that are to slow to flee Bobby
18:49:35 <Rubidium> if everybody is arrested, they can't do it the next night
18:50:00 * KittenKoder ponders making the blockade fences more like real ones.
18:50:13 <andythenorth> I think the police are kind of working on that 'arrest people' idea :P
18:50:20 <andythenorth> it seems to have occurred to them
18:50:25 <andythenorth> they're just a bit slow at running
18:50:39 <KittenKoder> Yep, Canadian sailors, the whole lot. :p
18:50:55 <Rubidium> andythenorth: thus they should be boxing them in
18:51:20 <andythenorth> they should give the cops bikes
18:51:24 <KittenKoder> Time for a Hot Pocket.
18:51:25 <andythenorth> a lot of the kids are on bikes
18:51:32 <Rubidium> andythenorth: those get stolen
18:51:47 <andythenorth> I live at the top of the hill from the riots
18:51:56 <andythenorth> touch wood - riots rarely move up hill
18:52:03 <Hirundo> I thought stealing bikes was a 0031 thingie...
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18:52:52 <andythenorth> ^ my friends live on the rh-side of that picture
18:53:08 <andythenorth> where the riot van is parked
18:53:13 <andythenorth> we used to have an office there too
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18:58:59 <KittenKoder> Weird .... I did the no level crossing flag in NML and it put wires on the track. >.<
18:59:26 <Hirundo> read the docs more carefully
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19:03:23 <Hirundo> KittenKoder: bitmask(RAILTYPE_FLAG_CATENARY, RAILTYPE_FLAG_NO_LEVEL_CROSSING) <- use bitmask
19:04:18 <KittenKoder> Wait, it doesn't show that in the example though.
19:05:01 <KittenKoder> railtype_flags: RAILTYPE_FLAG_CATANERY;
19:05:03 <Hirundo> I thought I'd fixed that *checks*
19:05:48 <KittenKoder> On the doc page, one sec.
19:06:22 <KittenKoder> bitmask worked like a charm! TY!
19:06:52 <KittenKoder> But the doc line is REALLY wrong to, the comment says it's no level crossing flag.
19:06:53 <Hirundo> ah I see, I fixed it somewhere but not there :) my bad, will fix
19:07:38 <KittenKoder> Yeah, new maglev track .... no level crossings.
19:08:17 <KittenKoder> 300+ mph trains and cars driving across .... >.<
19:09:37 <KittenKoder> Now ... time to remake the depots.
19:10:20 <KittenKoder> Then I get to learn parameters!
19:14:17 <KittenKoder> Inspiration for the depot finally hit!
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19:27:10 <KittenKoder> Blinking lights on depots ... good ... bad?
19:30:15 <andythenorth> stupid time goes too fast
19:30:58 <andythenorth> does game time work like UTC time in apps?
19:31:06 <andythenorth> i.e. number of ticks since epoch?
19:31:32 <andythenorth> when used in say, vehicle availability check, or vehicle aging check
19:31:42 <andythenorth> or does it look at in-game calendar date
19:33:06 <andythenorth> I wondered if we could just pretend the year had 730 days
19:33:23 <andythenorth> but I would bet money that isn't going to work
19:34:17 <andythenorth> is there something that increments a tick counter?
19:35:06 <Wolf01> I made a patch which avoids the known economy problems
19:35:16 <andythenorth> could we 'just' increment by 1 or 0 alternately, using a flip-flop type affair
19:35:27 <__ln__> Wolf01: you should offer it to Obama
19:35:52 <Wolf01> I must update it before doing that
19:36:05 <andythenorth> you should offer it to the Euro zone
19:36:11 <andythenorth> they'll probably accept it anyway
19:37:55 <Wolf01> I don't care about world economy problems, in the next year we wouldn't have an economy anymore, so all problems will be automagically resolved
19:40:56 <Wolf01> What about England instead? How much of what TV says is true? And how much TV don't say?
19:48:35 <andythenorth> Wolf01: it's true
19:48:39 <andythenorth> but somewhat over-rated
19:50:28 <andythenorth> there is one serious incident
19:50:49 <andythenorth> a number more dramatic incidents (dramatic on TV, with the right angle)
19:50:55 <andythenorth> many more minor incidents
19:51:11 <andythenorth> and a lot of idiots on twitter and other places politicking
19:51:49 <andythenorth> the riots are an awesome talking point for everyone who is a victim of ideology
19:52:11 <andythenorth> on one hand they are because we haven't hung enough people, and on the other they are because of the capitalist rich oppressor
19:52:25 <andythenorth> and all sides (there are more than two) are 100% in their conviction
19:52:40 <andythenorth> meanwhile a small number of kids are out having a great time nicking stuff
19:52:45 <Prof_Frink> Well, there's an obvious solution. Hang the rich.
19:53:31 <Hirundo> Rich people tend to object to that
19:54:07 <andythenorth> the French did it
19:54:21 <andythenorth> revolution is predicted
19:54:45 <andythenorth> the underclass has apparently declared civil war upon society
19:54:45 <Prof_Frink> Personally, I think it's a cover for the robots staging a coup on the lizard people.
19:55:01 <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: you're explanation is probably more convincing than some of the others :P
19:55:15 <andythenorth> there's a quote about suspecting conspiracy where fuckup would suffice ::
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20:11:09 <frosch123> hmm, firefox seems to be as multithreaded as ottd
20:11:43 <glx> it's theorically one thread/process per tab
20:12:42 <frosch123> i have 6 tabs and it only takes 100%
20:16:02 <frosch123> maybe it's memory allocation is interlocking itself
20:18:00 <Alberth> or a js program is doing stupid things :)
20:18:32 <frosch123> no, no, i am doing the stupid thing with trying to load the grf2html output of 6 ecs vectors at once :p
20:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds fun :p
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20:47:24 <frosch123> while opera seems to only use one core as well, it performs a lot better
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20:59:31 <frosch123> oh, now it tirggers the ulimit for too many files :p
21:03:34 <KittenKoder> Okay, I need a bit of help.
21:04:33 <KittenKoder> For NML, if you are setting up a parameter that allows the player to choose between your fence, default fence, or no fence .... I get the parameter stuff but where does the switch go and what syntax would it be?
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21:05:55 <KittenKoder> I kind of get the switch syntax ....
21:12:23 <KittenKoder> Wait, actually, what I need are the default variables for depots and fences.
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21:18:36 <Hirundo> What do you mean by "default variables"?
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21:20:33 <KittenKoder> This switch thing is messing my head up. >.<
21:21:05 <KittenKoder> I'm trying to think of a better way to explain it .... just a moment.
21:22:16 <KittenKoder> How to make a switch that can be changed by a parameter so that something in the GRF does not replace something set before it, like depots.
21:24:25 <Hirundo> Have you ever worked with switches or callbacks before?
21:25:54 <KittenKoder> Not for NML or GRF.
21:26:09 <KittenKoder> For c/c++, Java, and Python yes.
21:28:12 <Hirundo> well.. OpenTTD uses a callback mechanism to query a grf for various things, either to determine what sprites to show or for certain other values (for example, max speed of a train)
21:29:02 <Hirundo> In such a callback you can use a switch-block to make a decision based on various variables/parameters, whatever
21:30:26 <Hirundo> In this case, you'll probably want to switch based on the parameter setting, and choose between either your fence sprites, empty sprites (1x1 blue pixel), or CB_FAILED to use the default
21:31:43 <Hirundo> CB_FAILED is an explicit failure code, it causes the callback to abort without a return value
21:31:44 <KittenKoder> So CB_FAILED is like saying "do what you would normally do"?
21:31:57 <Hirundo> I assume in this case, yes (checking now)
21:34:20 <KittenKoder> Aha, I figured out the depot setting.
21:36:38 <KittenKoder> So fences would need a blank tile to disable.
21:39:44 <Hirundo> You'd need 8 1px * 1px transparent blue sprites
21:39:58 <Hirundo> of course, using the same pixel 8 times works just fine
21:43:09 <KittenKoder> Last part, railtype_flags ....
21:43:36 <KittenKoder> It won't let me use a switch on those and I've tried a lot of variations.
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21:46:04 <Hirundo> railtype_flags is a property, not a callback, why would you want a switch on that?
21:46:48 <KittenKoder> So there is no way to make a parameter that could change whether level crossings are allowed?
21:50:23 <Hirundo> there is, but not via a switch
21:50:55 <KittenKoder> Okay, so where do I look?
21:50:56 <Hirundo> The value of the railtype_flags property is a single expression that may also include parameter values
21:51:41 <Hirundo> So you could do something like "railtype_flags: param_level_crossings ? bitmask(..) : bitmask(..);"
21:52:03 <Hirundo> With of course the correct param and bits set, but I'm sure you'll figure that out :)
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21:52:17 <KittenKoder> Aaah, the if-then expression syntax.
21:54:03 <Hirundo> You can also do arithmetic and such (railtype_flags: param_abc * 42), but that probably doesn't make a lot of sense here
21:54:35 <KittenKoder> That didn't work for me to.
21:55:06 <KittenKoder> The if expression did though.
21:55:20 <KittenKoder> ^_^ I have my first GRF to actually let people try now.
21:55:34 <KittenKoder> Just need a better name and description.
21:55:55 <KittenKoder> Called it NeoMaglev Tracks .... kind of blech.
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22:00:34 <KittenKoder> Crap, GUI stuffs. >.<
22:16:33 <Sacro> Ammler: getting segfaults using Autopilot with CHPP
22:17:21 <__ln__> Sacro: what about you, have you been looting and vandalising stuff?
22:18:15 <Sacro> __ln__: nope, i'm staying well clear of it
22:20:30 <Sacro> oh, seems like it's an ubuntu bug
22:26:33 <Sacro> right,l forcing tclsh8.5 helped
22:26:36 <Sacro> now getting spawn id exp6 not open
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22:35:58 <Ammler> Sacro: does that mean, if you run it without ap, it works?
22:36:08 <Ammler> what does secfault, ap or openttd
22:36:39 <Sacro> it's adding things to the bind sectoin
22:36:44 <Sacro> which causes it to shit itself
22:36:49 <Sacro> Ammler: it's the package require Expect bug
22:37:25 <Ammler> well, ubuntu is one big bug :-P
22:37:34 <Sacro> s/tclsh/tclsh8.5/ did that
22:37:43 <Sacro> and I can load a new game
22:37:49 <Sacro> but when I load a new save, it can't bind :\
22:38:07 <Sacro> and then once I've loaded the save I can't start a new one without clearing the config
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22:40:53 <Ammler> I do not get, how that is related to ap
22:41:27 <Ammler> I mean just test it without ap
22:41:41 <Sacro> it's not, it's openttd :\
22:42:16 <Ammler> else I am sure, devs would like to get a fs post about
22:42:46 <Ammler> we run nightly and testing without any issues since years
22:42:59 <Sacro> no, it's that kernel protection thingy whose name escapes me
22:44:09 <Sacro> that helps keep servers secure
22:45:24 <Sacro> I can't figure out why it can't listen
22:45:56 <Sacro> dbg: [net] getaddrinfo for hostname "/home/openttd/.openttd/save/SimSigMatt Transport, 20th Mar 1970.sav", port 3979, address family either IPv4 or IPv6 and socket type tcp failed: Name or service not known
22:47:53 <Ammler> but that looks quite strange, I would suspect the spaces
22:48:44 <Ammler> anyway, would be coold, if you try to reproduce with nightly or testing and report to fs if it fails too
22:50:56 <Sacro> Yeah, seemilny fixed it
22:54:04 *** Phoenix_the_II has joined #openttd
23:03:22 <KittenKoder> NeoMaglev is done ....
23:05:31 <KittenKoder> That was pretty fun.
23:10:08 <Sacro> right, the dedi is causing epic lag
23:10:23 <KittenKoder> If people like it I will do more on it. But I do want to learn stations next.
23:16:07 <planetmaker> they're not yet implemented in NML (should you use that)
23:18:57 <KittenKoder> Alright, movie then play OTTD.
23:26:36 <Sacro> sigh, get it working and mpeople complain that their machines are too slow to handle it
23:27:13 <KittenKoder> Sacro, a majority or computer users have 10 year old computers.
23:28:28 <Sacro> so now we return to it being hosted on an old laptop via a wifi connection...
23:28:29 <KittenKoder> Upgrading computers as they come out is neither intelligent nor cost efficient.
23:39:25 *** lessthanthree has joined #openttd
23:39:26 <KittenKoder> Why come you don't have a tatoo?
23:47:40 <lessthanthree> what's a good % level for train service interval?
23:50:38 <KittenKoder> Anything above 50 is pretty good.
23:51:07 <KittenKoder> Wait ... I misunderstood the question.
23:51:36 <KittenKoder> It's better to use days for that.
23:52:16 <lessthanthree> and then the default 150 is okay?
23:52:38 <KittenKoder> You can add an order for them to service after long stops.
23:53:12 <KittenKoder> Such as waiting for a full load, then "go to depot for maintenance" then to the destination.
continue to next day ⏵
