IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-08-09
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00:19:38 <KittenKoder> I so could have saved myself a ton of headaches doing this template thing first.
00:38:08 <lessthanthree> is it possible to change the max number of vehicles once a game is running
00:59:23 <pjpe> my company is going to dieee
01:02:25 <lessthanthree> maybe ill kill it and restart from autosave
02:26:05 <KittenKoder> ^_^ My first GRF.
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02:36:47 <KittenKoder> >.< .... and now everyone's asleep.
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10:52:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i think this is correct now: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/fix_fence_drawing.diff
10:55:02 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: do you have a fenced-meadows-grf that works with original graphics?
10:57:23 <planetmaker> yes. The company land in ogfx+landscape is that
10:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> where can i find that grf?
10:58:18 <planetmaker> the same place as you find CETS
11:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that's what i feared. you should not draw fences if near same-company rail tiles...
11:14:47 <planetmaker> I haven't tested that actually..
11:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and as a bonus maybe a tile with a diagonal fence (if at corner of rectangular area)
11:23:51 <planetmaker> why whould the company land then use a diagonal fence?
11:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause> for beautification ;)
11:26:42 <planetmaker> I'm not sure that makes sense... it's draw then a 45° rotated rectangle inside a 2x2 area
11:27:03 <planetmaker> and why wouldn't fields have 90° corners?
11:27:58 <planetmaker> it's moderately easy to detect railtiles, though
11:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: just give the player a choice
11:28:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and check the owner of the railtile?
11:29:03 <planetmaker> would IMHO not be needed. Fenced is fenced
11:29:19 <planetmaker> though... there are corner cases where it then would not show any fence
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11:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i do think checking owner is necessary
11:37:28 <planetmaker> though it has the not so nice side-effect that they're also not shown when the rail has no fences..
11:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's exactly what i'm trying to reach ;)
11:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the fence should always face away from any company property
11:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it makes no sense to show fences in the middle
11:40:15 <planetmaker> fencing the rail makes still perfect sense towards this company land
11:40:21 <planetmaker> Might be a company-owned playground
11:40:35 <Eddi|zuHause> let me rephrase that: it goes against my aesthetic sense
11:41:00 <planetmaker> as I tried to point out: I don't think it does that always
11:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> huge file is huge
11:42:38 <Markk> Paint couldn't handle it.
11:42:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually, it's rather small for a giant screenshot :p)
11:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but "not always" means "provide the option"
11:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not played with water borders in ages
11:45:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but it need not be an option for the player, but for the newgrf. And they can do that...
11:45:58 <planetmaker> or we'd limit the freedom of newgrf authors
11:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> are we still talking about the same thing?
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12:03:07 <peter1138> that's to let the lawnmowers in
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13:42:50 <Coke> Are the different types of industries available hardcoded in the sources or is it in some data files loaded when you start the game?
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13:43:50 <Coke> Ok. I'm trying to grep for the steel mill to see an example, but can't find it
13:45:01 <Coke> So, I was thinking about maybe extending buildable objects to include storage facilities for various cargo
13:45:34 <Coke> Like, maybe you have a cargo supply depot in which you can put cargo. It accepts cargo and supplies cargo (if put in there) so you can build relay stations basically
13:45:47 <Coke> I looked at the cargo destination patch, but that's not really what I'm after.
13:46:02 <Coke> (or waiting hall for passengers where there is no city nearby, etc)
13:46:57 <Coke> Is newgrfs widely supported/in use ?
13:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> stations do that
13:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> use "transfer and leave emtpy" orders to deliver to the station, and normal load orders to pick up
13:48:05 <Coke> thats even more generous than i expected
13:48:10 <Coke> hmm. gonna try that out quickly
13:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> make sure your rating stays above 50% on those stations
13:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you lose the cargo
13:49:15 <Noxbru> really? that explains where my petrol went...
13:50:21 <planetmaker> my explanation then is: they then simply hire different transports...
13:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's fine, but you lose your partial transfer money
13:50:53 <Coke> its not dropping on the station
13:51:14 <Coke> says station accepts nothing and supplies nothing
13:51:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, that's the contract penalty
13:51:21 <Noxbru> Coke, make sure that the leave empty part of the order is added
13:51:33 <planetmaker> Coke, "transfer and leave empty"
13:51:41 <planetmaker> the station need not accept or supply anything
13:52:17 <Alberth> Coke: 'transfer' means you are going to transport the cargo further later
13:52:59 <Coke> i learned something new :)
13:53:31 <Coke> thanks a lot for the lesson guys
13:53:59 <Coke> im going to play now, hehe.
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17:38:08 <Hirundo> Were did you find that nfo?
17:38:31 <Alberth> in the mini-airport grf
17:38:49 <Alberth> ie not currently supported :)
17:39:48 <Hirundo> varadjust (60) has bit 5 set, i.e. another variable follows
17:40:01 <Hirundo> 10 is an operator, not num-ranges
17:41:52 <Alberth> ah, /me is looking at the wrong page.
17:42:00 <Hirundo> What the entire action2 does is adding 8 to register 00
17:42:39 <Alberth> you don't have a act 2 nfo -> nml decoder, do you?
17:43:28 <KittenKoder> Can fences and depots use 2cc?
17:43:42 <Hirundo> Yexo has one, but AFAIK it's not released anywhere (yet)
17:43:53 * Alberth ponders making one, doing another 40 of these is not fun
17:44:31 <glx> you could steal that from grf2html
17:44:32 <Hirundo> KittenKoder: Not as far as I know, but I'll check for you
17:45:00 <KittenKoder> I don't think fences do, but I want to make sure I didn't just color them wrong.
17:45:20 <Alberth> glx: good idea, perhaps grf2html can handle this already
17:45:37 <glx> it may not like the feature
17:46:01 <Hirundo> KittenKoder: Nope, it's not possible
17:47:02 <KittenKoder> In that case the fences are done ... though they aren't really fences. :p
17:47:31 <KittenKoder> Barricades ..... a sci-fi type of barricade
17:48:25 <KittenKoder> After I get all the basic stuff worked out I am going to learn parameter setting code so people can use the standard or no fences.
17:49:02 <Alberth> glx: it doesn't, I get "Exception: Access violation" :)
17:53:13 <KittenKoder> Depots can be "taller" right?
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17:55:01 <KittenKoder> Or do players prefer the typical size?
17:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> how tall do you want to make it?
17:57:34 <KittenKoder> Just a little taller.
17:58:05 <KittenKoder> I saw one that was almost twice as tall, but I didn't like it for other reasons.
17:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the tram depots has electric gear on it that makes it taller
17:58:33 <KittenKoder> That was the other one I didn't like. :p But because it didn't fit in the cities well for my eyes.
17:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i use some tram tracks that replace also the depot
17:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the default tram tracks are too narrow imho
17:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and the default tram catenary is ugly
18:00:05 <KittenKoder> I only use trams to prevent bus squishing.
18:00:33 <KittenKoder> The only reason I use passenger road vehicles at all is to appease the local authorities.
18:01:44 <KittenKoder> I love the look of maglev, just ... not the tracks or the default trains.
18:02:03 <KittenKoder> The 2cc set has some nice ones.
18:03:20 <KittenKoder> Wait, I don't think that's where they're from. >.<
18:03:23 <KittenKoder> I can't remember.
18:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> does 2cc have maglevs at all?
18:04:33 <pjpe> the shanghai maglev and the japanese one
18:05:15 <KittenKoder> Chimera I think is one of them.
18:05:32 <pjpe> that's a separate newgrf with the 2cc name
18:06:20 <KittenKoder> I think the maglev speed is insane personally, but would like to see more variety in them.
18:17:54 <frosch123> [19:49] <Alberth> glx: it doesn't, I get "Exception: Access violation" :) <- wow, it's that bad? :o
18:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be a moron who wrote that piece :p
18:21:07 <Alberth> version 0.4, binary is of dec 2007, there might be a newer version :)
18:21:57 <frosch123> 0.5.2 was the last one
18:22:05 <Alberth> could it choke on my 64bit system (binary is 32 bit)
18:22:25 <frosch123> you need a 64 bit linux binary?
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18:23:25 <Alberth> when I build the program I was running 32 bit, in the meantime switched to 64 bit, so that may introduce extra limitations (though it should not, afaik_
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18:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's where the fun starts :p
18:26:07 <Alberth> segmentation fault ./grf2html -h :D
18:30:27 <Alberth> hmm, pascal, who on earth uses that for writing real programs? :p
18:31:07 <frosch123> delphi was the best compiler on windows from 1995 to 2002
18:31:14 <frosch123> and also the best language
18:31:28 <frosch123> though it really "was"
18:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it suddenly declined...
18:32:09 <frosch123> oh, and grf2html uses virtual constructors :)
18:36:35 <Alberth> right, no windres at my system and not in the packages as well. That ends this exercise.
18:42:02 <frosch123> yeah, it's not easy to build :p
18:42:10 <frosch123> i guess grf2html would be a ottd patch :)
18:42:29 <frosch123> grf2html 2.0 that is
18:42:37 <frosch123> though i never reached 1.0 :p
18:42:42 <Alberth> better make grf2nml :p
18:44:35 <frosch123> well, but what i meant is viewing a grf2html like output inside ottd
18:45:07 <frosch123> including the variable and register values of a particular callback run or so
18:45:09 <Alberth> add a html browser to ottd, and you're done :)
18:45:29 <frosch123> reminds me of the matlab profiler
18:45:46 <frosch123> that also creates a html
18:45:56 <frosch123> actually the matlab profiler is really good
18:46:20 <Alberth> html is a quite useful format for outputting human-readable data
18:46:37 <frosch123> though i have not used it in the past 3.5 years
18:47:05 <Alberth> you don't read or write html email? :p
18:47:27 <Alberth> or browsed the internets? :D
18:47:50 <frosch123> isn't the internet flash-based?
18:48:07 <Alberth> I mostly tried computations like sqrt(2) with matlab
18:48:22 <Alberth> unfortunately, it was not stable enough for that
18:48:51 <frosch123> matlab sounds like the wrong program to compute sqrt(2) :)
18:49:12 <Alberth> a part of the internet believes flash should be used, but you can just ignore that part :p
18:49:46 <Alberth> I was testing stability of starting matlab ;)
18:50:27 <Alberth> but it's not so good in starting
18:50:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i generally only read text-email
18:51:14 <Alberth> with the nice side-effects that sometimes you get empty emails
18:51:43 <Alberth> or email with the word "text" as content :)
18:51:56 * andythenorth should stop watching riots
18:52:10 <Alberth> reading RFCs is complicated :)
18:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: taking part in riots for a change? :)
18:52:52 <Alberth> or throw the TV out the window ?
18:52:52 <andythenorth> riots are severely over-rated
18:55:53 <andythenorth> the riots are on my way to work so I had a bit of a look
18:56:21 <andythenorth> one burnt out car, one smashed car, one torched and smouldering bin
18:56:33 <andythenorth> but with good camera angles, you can make it look like the end of days
18:58:14 <peter1138> i think the burning buildings were a little worse than that
19:00:19 * andythenorth just got an iphone
19:02:18 <andythenorth> should we call in the army?
19:03:52 <andythenorth> anything being coded?
19:04:35 <Alberth> an advanced varaction2 decoder
19:04:46 <Alberth> I don't want to decode them by hand :p
19:05:28 <andythenorth> you can't do it in your head?
19:06:13 <frosch123> Alberth: if you give me the grf, i can also run it through grf2html and give you the output btw
19:06:33 <andythenorth> grf2html is how I learnt lots of varaction 2 stuff
19:07:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: but that was 2 or 3 years ago when grf2html was the sparcling star at the horizon :)
19:08:49 <Alberth> andythenorth: I have decided looong ago that computers are much better at numbers
19:09:13 <andythenorth> how should NewHQs be implemented?
19:09:27 <andythenorth> akin to new objects, houses, or industries?
19:09:38 <andythenorth> they need acceptance and production
19:09:41 <frosch123> cool, it gives access violation for me as well :)
19:10:00 <Alberth> frosch123: it might just be a bad grf
19:10:26 <frosch123> well it outputs correctly until sprite #98
19:11:35 <Alberth> andythenorth: acceptance and production excludes newobjects, I think
19:11:53 <Alberth> an HQ looks more like a house to me, tbh
19:12:44 <frosch123> so grf2html actually only fails on the last 10 sprites :)
19:13:00 <andythenorth> Alberth: excludes *current* newobjects :P
19:14:54 <Alberth> andythenorth: I was more wondering how houses are different from industries :p
19:15:07 <andythenorth> player can't fund them
19:15:10 <andythenorth> no production code
19:15:16 <andythenorth> the tiles are...similar
19:15:41 <andythenorth> we need (1) HQ Airports (2) HQ to accept BEER
19:15:48 <andythenorth> neither have a rational reason
19:15:57 <andythenorth> but we should do more stuff because it's cool
19:16:07 <Alberth> you said the magic word :)
19:18:03 <Hirundo> Making HQ accept BEER is possible within current specs
19:18:20 <Alberth> andythenorth: a runway around the building would be cool :)
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19:18:25 <Hirundo> You just need to put BEER in cargo slot 0
19:19:23 <Alberth> Hirundo: but the whole company will run at 20% only if you don't supply he HQ
19:20:19 <Alberth> ie a money-making multiplier :)
19:20:54 <Hirundo> I wonder, how much stuff breaks if you change the pax/mail/goods cargos
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19:21:21 <SmatZ> you would just carry BEER instead of MAIL :)
19:21:53 <Alberth> SmatZ would like that :)
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19:39:43 <Alberth> frosch123: looking good, you repaired grf2html?
19:40:13 <frosch123> the access violation, yes
19:41:12 <Alberth> will try to understand what it actually does tomorrow
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20:29:03 <Terkhen> heh, I probably ignored that thread :P
20:29:30 <Terkhen> I did not know it was suggested already
20:36:08 <andythenorth> "when FIRS is done"
20:36:12 <andythenorth> we can do rv-wagons :P
20:36:46 * andythenorth is bored of riot reading + will play dice wars
20:40:18 <Terkhen> ask me again when summer ends, right now I barely can code the mechanic conversions that FIRS requires :P
20:40:40 <andythenorth> FIRS will keep us busy long past then ;)
20:40:48 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I can't even *read* nml yet :P
20:41:40 <Terkhen> you can start by checking simple vehicle code in OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles, or some of the meaningful examples on regression
20:41:57 <planetmaker> there's now even an even more meaningful examples folder
20:42:04 <Terkhen> oh, nice, nml moves fast :P
20:42:23 <planetmaker> yeah, hirundo is doing excellent and quick work
20:42:44 <Terkhen> I suppose that once that you have your mind set to nfo is difficult to switch :P
20:43:19 <Terkhen> for me, nml turned a long list of vaguely understood separate parts of knowledge into a single thing
20:43:42 <planetmaker> not sure... I wasn't an nfo wizard ever, but I found it easy to forget the meaning of all the numbers :-P
20:43:56 <planetmaker> yeah... that describes it quite well
20:44:45 <Terkhen> once that planetmaker ends with production code and I finish spritelayouts, the conversion should be more than 50% done
20:44:58 <Terkhen> the other "big" thing I can think of is fixing references to strings
20:45:18 <Terkhen> besides that... maybe better reorganization and further templating
20:45:45 <Terkhen> for example, ground spritesets and ground only spritelayouts could be defined only once in a common file
20:46:14 <Terkhen> am I missing anything big besides those three things?
20:46:38 <planetmaker> yes. I guestimate that about 33% of the industry templating is done (not industry tiles)
20:47:00 <planetmaker> but I have no overview of how far tiles are
20:47:08 <planetmaker> I tend to ignore it for now :-)
20:47:13 <Terkhen> all of the industries I have checked have a single industry tile
20:47:19 <Terkhen> they reuse it with different layouts
20:47:30 * planetmaker knows at least one with two
20:47:30 <Terkhen> some of them use different industry tiles that are defined in a single file
20:47:46 <Terkhen> I guess that those industry tiles are common between different industries
20:48:17 <Terkhen> since I'm fixing also industry layouts and relative_pos switches while I fix spritelayouts, industry tiles should be done too, unless some of them have some special code
20:48:26 <planetmaker> when the overall templating is done, I fear the resulting FIRS will need a thorough test
20:48:42 <planetmaker> I'd not bet my life that I don't do an occasional error which compiles but changes gameplay
20:50:43 <andythenorth> good luck testing that :P
20:50:49 <andythenorth> I'll have to help :(
20:51:06 <andythenorth> how about an automated testing server with logging?
20:51:09 <andythenorth> for closures and other crap
20:51:16 <andythenorth> how about teaching AIs to play it?
20:51:31 <Terkhen> first each of us should have a small testing game to filter the "big" mistakes, then a coop game
20:51:45 <Terkhen> stuff like no industry accepting livestock and so on :P
20:51:59 <Terkhen> creating an automated test might be more work than actually testing it :P
20:52:06 <planetmaker> it's part of the slope check for tiles whether it can be built, I guess
20:52:30 <Terkhen> I suppose that once I finish with spritelayouts I can check all "other industrytile code" and beautify it :)
20:52:52 <Terkhen> I'm going slow though, I find it complicated to concentrate on anything lately
20:52:54 <planetmaker> I've already version2 of the closure and availability code is use ;-)
20:53:07 <planetmaker> I'll have to check somewhen where v1 is still in use
20:53:45 <planetmaker> but it gets easy now that I can really in half the cases just replace all code by the templates
20:53:56 <planetmaker> only few things are not yet templated. Like clustering for primary
20:54:21 <planetmaker> oh... apropos, andythenorth: there are random cargo output for sawmill and recycling plant
20:54:36 <planetmaker> from nfo it seems that's intended...
20:54:53 <andythenorth> recycling plant yes
20:54:56 <planetmaker> but funnily sawmill and recycling plant seemed to have shared that piece of code.
20:55:04 <andythenorth> not intentionally :P
20:55:06 <planetmaker> ok, looked odd to me
20:55:40 <planetmaker> then you can somewhat undo r2272 I think
20:56:53 <andythenorth> have you guys done any cb28 (location) or cb2f (tile location) templating yet?
20:57:22 <planetmaker> location for industries is templated, except primary clustering part
20:57:47 <planetmaker> and primary clustering is with a bit of luck the only industry template missing
20:58:06 * planetmaker guesses the var 0x60 you talked earlier about ;-)
20:58:33 <Terkhen> I suppose that cb2f is in those nearby_tile_class switches and var 0x60
20:58:46 <Terkhen> I still have not checked that code
20:58:52 <supermop> does nml do stations yet?
20:59:02 <Terkhen> I'll come back to it once that spritelayouts and industry tile layouts are done :)
20:59:28 <Terkhen> from what I have heard they are a tough bone :P
20:59:46 * Terkhen looked at the specs of stations and did not understand a word of them
21:01:48 * planetmaker looked at sawmill code
21:02:06 <supermop> i was thinking i should rewrite mlss in nml
21:02:14 <Hirundo> planetmaker: I thought, you were playing your 'fake Terkhen' role of this afternoon again ;)
21:02:16 <supermop> to make it easier for me to maintain and update
21:02:41 <Terkhen> no, now I'm sleepy Terkhen :)
21:02:58 <supermop> i should get a proper coder
21:03:55 <Hirundo> supermop: It's sortof figured out how stations are supposed to be done in NML, which was quite a large step already
21:05:13 <Hirundo> It's currently on the list of 'big features that have to be done but take a lot of time'
21:05:27 <Hirundo> Once on that list, progress tends to be slow :)
21:06:52 <KittenKoder> I make stupid lights.
21:08:25 <Terkhen> good night from here too
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21:15:22 <KittenKoder> I kinda like what I did with the fences.
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22:26:10 <KittenKoder> I'm of the mind that several maglevs were made specifically for a track like this and not the default one.
23:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i think firefox has some extreme memory leak problem
23:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i closed it, and it freed about 2GB of memory
23:26:26 <Ammler> maybe it is some addon or plugin
23:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i have many addons
23:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually use firefox, only for sites which make extensive use of flash, and this google spreadsheet thingy
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