IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-08-08
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00:48:33 <pjpe> what are the 2 generations of 2cc wagons for
00:48:40 <pjpe> they don't seem to be much different
00:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> they have different design speed, so if you have faster engines, the newer generations cost less to run
00:52:06 <pjpe> ah
00:52:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there are like 6 generations over the years
00:52:16 <pjpe> what if wagon speed limits are off?
00:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the design speed/running costs are independent from wagonspeedlimits
00:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have never actually played the 2cc-set
00:55:10 <pjpe> what if it doesn't show the design speed in the window
00:55:16 <pjpe> it just has empty space after it
00:55:31 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea
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07:15:54 <planetmaker> moin
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07:21:38 <dihedral> good morning
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08:13:42 <dihedral> :-P
08:13:47 <dihedral> that really cracked me up
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08:32:11 <Terkhen> good morning
08:33:22 <planetmaker> hello Terkhen
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10:12:20 <dihedral> last workday today - then: holiday
10:12:28 <dihedral> a week of funfares
10:12:34 <dihedral> 5 days - 5 funfares :-D
10:16:05 <SpComb> last holiday today, work tomorrow :(
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10:21:21 <__ln__> 'qapla
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10:49:32 <krinn> hi
10:51:21 <krinn> i've made a test AI for ai authors, i would like a space @openttd-coop to hold the code, is there a way to have a "manager" that could add another dev that wish update it (without my aggrement) ?
10:53:44 <planetmaker> a manager of a project can add people to the project
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10:54:47 <krinn> great, who could be manager ?
10:55:01 <planetmaker> you made the testAI. So I guess you?
10:56:01 <krinn> oh i've just check, i'm manager for dictatorAI
10:56:07 <planetmaker> Besides a project's managers, the three admins of the DevZone could in principle also assign people to projects. But I prefer to not exercise that right, unless it's clear that it is desired
10:56:16 <planetmaker> then you can create also a new project already
10:56:32 <planetmaker> just click on "NewProject" in the project list overview
10:56:38 <planetmaker> upper right...
10:57:03 <krinn> ah cool, i would like the code be shared, and update by anyone that wish it even i'm not here to agree (it's just a test ai nothing really harm could be done to it)
10:58:01 <planetmaker> you're creating a project already?
10:58:12 <krinn> i'm looking for the create option
10:58:34 <planetmaker> <-- should be there
10:58:46 <krinn> great thank you
10:59:24 <planetmaker> Name is the name in the project list, the identifier is the directory name. Please choose ai-XXXX
11:00:13 <planetmaker> select also the module "Repository"
11:00:21 <krinn> i've named it AIVehicleTest -> ai-aivehicletest ?
11:00:38 <planetmaker> but don't try to configure it, it will be done automatically. Yes, that's ok. or just ai-vehicletest. Whatever you like
11:01:30 <krinn> ai-aivehicletest then in case one create another ai name VehicleTest
11:02:42 <krinn> repository module is the 2nd line 3rd one in the list ? (it's translate to french for me)
11:06:14 <planetmaker> I don't know the french translations. There are checkboxes for "modules" to use in the project. "issue tracking" and "url tabs" are default.
11:06:25 <planetmaker> Select in that list also the "repository" one
11:07:05 <krinn> i think i've found it, now create, can you help with next steps ?
11:07:43 <planetmaker> when you checked that box, too, just click the 'save' button below
11:07:52 <krinn> done
11:08:27 <planetmaker> now you have to add yourself as manager.
11:08:45 <krinn> it have autoadd me i see
11:08:58 <planetmaker> ah, it did? great.
11:09:32 <krinn> can i add you as manager to check it ?
11:09:48 <planetmaker> I'm admin, I can check it also without that right :-P
11:09:58 <krinn> great :P
11:10:31 <planetmaker> the other two are A mmler and Y exo
11:10:41 <krinn> one i've check seems not to be the good "repo" option :/
11:11:10 <krinn> i have no "repo" tab (hellish translation !)
11:11:14 <planetmaker> you checked the correct one
11:11:24 <planetmaker> the repo is already created and you can push to it.
11:11:50 <krinn> with mercurial?
11:11:55 <planetmaker> yes
11:12:21 <planetmaker> same URL as for your AI, but the last part is ai-aivehicletest
11:14:45 <krinn> trying to remember the hg creation :p
11:14:53 <planetmaker> you can also pull ;-)
11:15:07 <planetmaker> hg clone
11:15:17 <planetmaker> s/pull/clone/
11:15:41 <planetmaker> you'll need to setup then the https URL for push
11:16:56 <krinn> hg pull fail :)
11:17:46 <krinn> lol found solve, hg init
11:19:39 <planetmaker> yeah, not pull. Clone
11:20:07 <planetmaker> but if you init, you don't need to clone. But you'll edit you .hg/hgrc accordingly to point to the correct URL of the devzone repo
11:20:36 <krinn> look out the repo must be update now
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11:22:03 <krinn> we have a way to push a tar file with the AI, i don't wish put that ai in bananas, no use for users
11:22:12 <Elish4> It just made it to my mind, to spice up the game with random traffic from actual citizens of the city?
11:22:22 <Elish4> or cities*
11:22:39 <planetmaker> Elish4, get the generic cars NewGRF and the TownCar AI
11:22:47 <Elish4> :o
11:22:50 <Elish4> awesome!
11:24:02 <krinn> planetmaker, oh and btw you remember the value to tell openttd to not use that ai as random ai?
11:24:10 <krinn> the one in the info.nut
11:25:15 <planetmaker> I never knew the value :-)
11:25:47 <krinn> :) this one should be wrote in the wiki
11:26:21 <planetmaker> please find out and amend the wiki :-)
11:27:19 <planetmaker> A wiki lives from people adding things when they were annoyed to not have found it where expected :-)
11:27:51 <krinn> never used one, but i'm sure zuu could update it
11:28:32 <planetmaker> relying on other people to edit the wiki usually fails ;-)
11:28:48 <planetmaker> and *someone* is a very elusive and illusive person...
11:28:51 <planetmaker> @seen someone
11:28:51 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: someone was last seen in #openttd 42 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 48 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
11:28:55 <krinn>
11:29:00 <krinn> found it :)
11:29:17 <planetmaker> ha, even there ;-)
11:33:09 <krinn> possible to have the tar file upload there or should i drop it to the forum instead ?
11:33:32 <krinn> for ones that don't wish/know howto clone the repot to get it
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11:39:02 <planetmaker> most people will rather search the forums, I assume
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11:39:21 <planetmaker> You could add the module "files" and attach it there, if you like
11:40:05 <krinn> i'm doing a forum entry with the ai, it will be easier
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11:56:03 <krinn> ok done, thank you planetmaker
11:58:44 <planetmaker> you're welcome :-)
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14:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a (trunk, but doesn't really appear there) bug with drawing fences:,%2012.%20Mai%201988.png anyone familiar with the logic-magic in rail_cmd.cpp:DrawTrackFence_*?
14:20:03 <planetmaker> at least one fence has a wrong slope
14:21:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yep
14:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> rail_cmd.cpp:if (ti->tileh != SLOPE_FLAT) rfo = (ti->tileh & SLOPE_S) ? RFO_SLOPE_SW : RFO_SLOPE_NE; <-- this line is probably not right in some corner cases
14:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> another corner case:,%206.%20Jul%201988.png
14:32:38 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a check whether there is a foundation between tile1 and tile2 (both adjacent tile indices), or a half-foundation on a tile?
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15:53:18 <IchGuckLive> Hi all
15:53:26 <IchGuckLive> Eddi|zuHause: ? B)
15:56:23 <IchGuckLive> i try to find a Documentation on what alll this inserts to a transport instructions are doing
15:57:04 <IchGuckLive> there has a llot changed till 0.6
15:59:12 <planetmaker> that's like 3 years
15:59:56 <IchGuckLive> it woudt also be good to have a information on what tiles a Town ownes Entyer so you do not have to look at every tile
16:00:46 <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: ubuntu distros still hold that old version in stock
16:02:51 <planetmaker> complain then
16:03:00 <planetmaker> or use a new ubuntu, if they updated
16:03:16 <IchGuckLive> i upgreadet to 1.1.2-Rc1
16:03:16 <planetmaker> but complain to the ubuntu maintainers ;-)
16:03:29 <planetmaker> good choice, I guess
16:03:57 <IchGuckLive> but i try to find infos on the new featurers under that transport instructions
16:04:11 <__ln__> IchGuckLive: ubuntu does not upgrade any software within one ubuntu release.
16:04:26 <IchGuckLive> B)
16:05:33 <IchGuckLive> infos on instructions sutch as load for 3 Days
16:05:45 <IchGuckLive> or wait till 50% load
16:07:10 <IchGuckLive> the new game performence has a mutch better outcome i owne now after 8Years 10mio cash
16:08:06 <IchGuckLive> seams also the citys grow faster when suplied with goods
16:09:49 <IchGuckLive> ok by try to find some answers in a forum later !
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16:35:40 <Rubidium> planetmaker: ubuntu maintainers? What's that supposed to be?
16:36:42 <Rubidium> e.g. did you know that, according to Ubuntu, AI-Trans (the AI) is upstream of the OpenTTD Ubuntu package?
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16:57:16 <phatmatt> hi, is there a user with a 'Project Manager' account on flyspray for the openttd project?
16:57:31 <phatmatt> as in, one that's around :P
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17:00:52 <Burtybob> I have "network.server_admin_chat" set to on but my admin network bot still doesn't pick up "private" chat. However it does pick up normal (public chat) fine. Does anyone have any suggestions?
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17:09:29 <phatmatt> planetmaker: you around?
17:09:49 <Terkhen> @get #openttd -3
17:09:49 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
17:10:18 <phatmatt> sure, but he helped with my flyspray stuff before, and no-one else responded
17:10:24 <phatmatt> just wanted to highlight his nick
17:10:34 <Terkhen> better to highlight with a question
17:10:59 <phatmatt> yeah, but i need it to be private :P
17:11:06 <Terkhen> send a private message
17:11:12 <Terkhen> burtybob: is the admin network supposed to know aout private chat?
17:11:15 <Terkhen> about*
17:11:20 * planetmaker returns from dinner
17:11:26 <phatmatt> wellllll that's why i asked for someone who was one and here now but ok
17:11:28 <burtybob> Yes, from what I read it is.
17:11:30 <phatmatt> nvm :P
17:11:42 <burtybob> "The configuration option network.server_admin_chat specifies whether private chat for to the server is distributed into the admin network."
17:11:51 <planetmaker> phatmatt: even without confidential information released, the problem certainly can be explained ;-)
17:11:53 <Terkhen> oh, private chat to the server
17:12:01 <Terkhen> I thought you meant all private chat :P
17:12:04 <burtybob> Oh...
17:12:05 <Terkhen> that makes sense
17:12:23 <burtybob> That's how I read it as "all chat" since the "server" can see all private messages I believe
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17:13:14 <Terkhen> I don't know much about the admin network, but I don't think it is supposed to be able to eavesdrop all private conversations
17:15:38 <burtybob> That would make sense
17:17:20 <burtybob> I was just reading it wrong lol, however there is a dest type of DESTTYPE_CLIENT and DESTTYPE_TEAM which added to my confusion I think
17:21:48 <Terkhen> ok :)
17:23:00 <burtybob> Would be handy from an admin point of view but I can see how it could be abused though :(
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17:40:41 <X-Frank-X> Hi all :-)
17:42:42 <planetmaker> hm, I sense a first application actually using the admin interface
17:43:08 <Terkhen> hi X-Frank-X
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17:45:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22730 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt:
17:45:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
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17:46:09 <X-Frank-X> Hi Terkhen, was just reading your forum posting, thanks for replying
17:46:49 <X-Frank-X> I was actually just thinking "in the box" of a multiplayer server in my first post...
17:48:05 <Terkhen> yes, my answer was mostly regarding trunk inclusion, but a public patch that works would be nice too :P
17:48:33 <X-Frank-X> well, I was just replying to your forum post to get the conversation going :-)
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17:48:49 <X-Frank-X> but what i'm saying is actually that I will work on it :-)
17:48:56 <Terkhen> nice :)
17:49:12 <X-Frank-X> allthough it would be nice if I could get some help here and there, but I guess this is the right channel for it :-)
17:49:40 <X-Frank-X> have been studying on the code for some time now... Now I guess it would be a nice idea to "jump in" :-)
17:50:08 <Terkhen> yes, this is the right channel
17:50:21 <Terkhen> depending on what you plan to do, it might be a very big project :P
17:50:49 <X-Frank-X> well, in the first place I will just study the code of the beta "Citybuilder" script for 0.7.4
17:51:00 <X-Frank-X> and will try to integrate it in a patch for 1.1.1
17:51:10 <X-Frank-X> that's step 1
17:51:28 <Terkhen> hmm... I don't remember if 0.7.4 is from before or after the big change regarding goal patches
17:51:38 <X-Frank-X> I think it's from before
17:51:51 <X-Frank-X> cause everything is VERY different if you look at the code of 0.7.1
17:51:53 <Terkhen> I don't remember much about it honestly, IIRC it was something about not allowing commands done by "no one" anymore
17:51:54 <planetmaker> X-Frank-X: don't patch releases
17:51:58 <planetmaker> work with openttd trunk
17:52:08 <X-Frank-X> well...
17:52:15 <Terkhen> if that patch is from before that change, you will need a new approach
17:52:20 <X-Frank-X> ok
17:52:38 <planetmaker> Terkhen: yes, that was changed since
17:52:43 <X-Frank-X> Planetmaker: I was just thinking about the stable releases, cause that's what most players use right now
17:52:44 <planetmaker> pre- 1.0
17:52:59 <planetmaker> X-Frank-X: but patches for stable releases are useless for development
17:53:03 <X-Frank-X> true
17:53:13 <X-Frank-X> but this would be a multiplayer server patch...
17:53:18 <X-Frank-X> that was my idea
17:53:19 <planetmaker> so?
17:53:29 <X-Frank-X> well, most clients are the stable release!
17:53:31 <X-Frank-X> but
17:53:34 <planetmaker> development happens in trunk
17:53:56 <X-Frank-X> It wouldn't be such a big step if I have it working for 1.1.1 to make it compatible with the Trunk release
17:53:59 <X-Frank-X> I guess?
17:54:02 <planetmaker> if you want to go the "I patch stables" you most probably go an approach which won't lead to anything actually happening
17:54:14 <X-Frank-X> I understand
17:54:31 <X-Frank-X> I will actually check first what I can do
17:54:44 <planetmaker> and... as written, goals / scenarios need a single-player component. Thus patching servers is not the way
17:54:55 <planetmaker> it's the wrong way actually
17:55:14 <X-Frank-X> well... online there is a server which is server side patched and gives the citybuilder module
17:55:21 <X-Frank-X> that was my original target to make
17:55:31 <X-Frank-X> but I understand what you are saying
17:55:48 <planetmaker> yes, people do that. But those are rather hacks. And they'll never have a chance to hit the main development branch
17:55:57 <X-Frank-X> ok
17:56:04 <X-Frank-X> get the point :-)
17:56:11 <planetmaker> Thus you choose: do something which may actually be useful beyond your server. Or ... just make yet another hacked server with goals / whatever
17:56:14 <X-Frank-X> I will do my best to develop for the trunk release!
17:56:22 <Terkhen> great :)
17:56:31 <Terkhen> then IMO you should aim for something that uses script
17:56:45 <X-Frank-X> so, what would be the best approach in this case?
17:56:47 <Terkhen> but that makes the project huge :P
17:57:01 <X-Frank-X> If I want to be able to make it single player, offcourse
17:57:15 <X-Frank-X> but the squirrel approach, is that even possible>
17:57:16 <X-Frank-X> ?
17:57:18 <planetmaker> apropos... I think there's two things which can be separated: goals (as in defining an ending) and scenario / script control which trigger events based on *whatever*
17:57:29 <Terkhen> ^
17:57:32 <Terkhen> that's the problem with this feature
17:57:34 <Terkhen> defining limits :P
17:57:43 <planetmaker> :-)
17:57:52 <X-Frank-X> exactly, maybe i should put up a project approach :-)
17:57:58 <Terkhen> if you only want a way to define score and an ending... huge scripts are probably wrong
17:58:00 <X-Frank-X> setting a first goal
17:58:03 <planetmaker> I guess first excluding game changes might be a good decision. Just definiable goals
17:58:08 <planetmaker> yep
17:58:29 <Terkhen> maybe "only goals and score, but don't close the door to future implementations of more complicated stuff"
17:58:31 <X-Frank-X> well, that shouldn't be to difficult, I mean, I got plenty of ideas (I think ;-))
17:59:00 <X-Frank-X> so setting up the project goal wouldn't be to difficult as a first step
18:00:14 <X-Frank-X> originally I had 2 approaches: Setting a goal based on company value
18:00:42 <X-Frank-X> and building a city with bringin cargo to the city and make it grow where your goal is the amount of people in a city
18:01:04 <X-Frank-X> and the cargo demand will grow with the city offcourse
18:01:23 <planetmaker> the latter is anything but "of course"
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18:01:37 <X-Frank-X> lol
18:01:43 <X-Frank-X> true
18:02:07 <planetmaker> adding a goal "city population" and "company value" probably are moderately easy
18:02:30 <X-Frank-X> I thought so to... but is that doable with for example Squirrel
18:02:33 <planetmaker> adding a game change "increase good demand for further city growth" is quite a fundamental economical change
18:02:40 <Terkhen> oooh, maybe is the moment to have the town growth discussion again :)
18:02:51 <planetmaker> :-)
18:02:52 <Terkhen> it is, again, a problem of scope
18:02:52 <X-Frank-X> :) Had that before?
18:03:04 <planetmaker> once? twice? n-times I guess :-)
18:03:07 <Terkhen> X-Frank-X: I was planning on handling town growth changes via NewGRF
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18:03:22 <Terkhen> see
18:03:40 <Terkhen> some people prefer a NewGRF approach, other people a approach via scripts
18:04:05 <Terkhen> but Alberth is not here :P
18:04:19 <planetmaker> we'll probably end up with both :-P
18:04:22 <X-Frank-X> lol, and your approach is over NewGRF?
18:04:32 <planetmaker> though I prefer towns handled by newgrfs
18:04:41 <Terkhen> me too, but Alberth is right about something
18:04:51 <X-Frank-X> what will be the "win" with NewGRF? No Game code structure change?
18:05:04 <Terkhen> implementing *anything* with NewGRFs makes it more difficult to understand to AIs and scripts
18:05:05 <X-Frank-X> sorry, I have to roll in a little...
18:05:14 <X-Frank-X> ok
18:05:16 <Terkhen> he made other valid points, but that was the one that convinced me
18:05:26 <Terkhen> X-Frank-X: yes, that's the big win :P
18:05:51 <X-Frank-X> sorry if I ask stupid questions sometimes, just want to make myself confortable with everything :-)
18:05:57 <Terkhen> don't worry :)
18:06:07 <Terkhen> my questions were far more stupid :P
18:06:11 <X-Frank-X> lol
18:06:24 <planetmaker> NewGRF would probably much more flexible. But yes, the interface to AIs and scripts would be "interesting". Actually also to players
18:06:25 <X-Frank-X> so, does the NewGRF approach have access to all game aspects?
18:06:37 <planetmaker> many. All: no
18:06:40 <Terkhen> many, yes
18:06:42 <X-Frank-X> ok
18:07:03 <X-Frank-X> I though NewGRF was for graphics only *sigh*
18:07:05 <Terkhen> it's not a problem of what is it capable to do, it has more to do with its relation with other features
18:07:13 <X-Frank-X> roger that
18:07:15 <Terkhen> for example, AIs have a hard time already with industry newgrfs
18:07:31 <Terkhen> for example, they might not know what is stockpiling
18:07:38 <X-Frank-X> ah
18:07:43 <Terkhen> even harder with vehicles: some sets for example require a caboose for trains
18:07:44 <planetmaker> that *could* be given them, though
18:07:49 <Terkhen> but the AI has no way to know that
18:07:58 * Terkhen is just giving random examples to explain the general issue :P
18:08:06 <planetmaker> but it's not easy. Both on OpenTTD and AI side
18:08:07 <X-Frank-X> :)
18:08:15 <planetmaker> Terkhen: of course
18:08:21 <Terkhen> a town growth approach with NewGRFs would have the same problem, your goal scripts would have a hard time trying to understand what the town growth NewGRF does
18:08:34 <Terkhen> and that's what convinced me to stop coding :P
18:08:39 <X-Frank-X> ah
18:08:45 <planetmaker> hm, did that?
18:08:46 <X-Frank-X> thank you for that heads up ;-)
18:09:07 <Terkhen> planetmaker: yes, I'd like to have goal scripts too :P
18:09:12 <planetmaker> :-)
18:09:16 <X-Frank-X> :-)
18:09:28 <X-Frank-X> cool, so it's actually not a new idea...
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18:09:34 <X-Frank-X> (offcourse not)
18:09:35 <X-Frank-X> duh
18:09:58 <planetmaker> it's probably just a matter of where you draw the line between a (future) game control script interface and the existing game control via NewGRFs
18:09:59 <Terkhen> it's new that someone aims for trunk inclusion with his goal patch :P
18:10:11 <planetmaker> In principle a goal framework via NewGRFs is thinkable, too
18:10:19 <Terkhen> urgh
18:10:25 <planetmaker> given NML? :-)
18:10:37 <Terkhen> hmm...
18:10:42 <X-Frank-X> NML? sorry, didn't get that
18:10:49 <planetmaker> newgrf programming language
18:10:54 <Terkhen> NML is a language for newgrfs
18:11:03 <X-Frank-X> well... I guess it's now C++?
18:11:05 <X-Frank-X> :-)
18:11:09 <X-Frank-X> now = not
18:11:11 <Terkhen> nml is like c, nfo is like assembler :P
18:11:34 <X-Frank-X> crap... but there are alot of examples out there, so have to go to study then :-)
18:11:50 <X-Frank-X> on NML
18:12:02 <X-Frank-X> but offcourse the same goes for AI and Squirrel
18:12:07 <Terkhen> you might want to explore newgrfs and AIs a bit, yes :P
18:12:12 <X-Frank-X> will do
18:12:28 <X-Frank-X> allthough I was just getting interested in C++ ;-)
18:12:28 <planetmaker> <-- like that is NewGRFs in NML
18:12:29 <X-Frank-X> lol
18:12:35 <X-Frank-X> thanks
18:12:37 <planetmaker> you find on the same page AIs
18:12:38 <X-Frank-X> *click*
18:13:51 <frosch123> [20:07] <Terkhen> for example, AIs have a hard time already with industry newgrfs <- ais wont have an easier job with scripted economy either :)
18:14:24 <X-Frank-X> :S
18:14:27 <planetmaker> as you now have noticed, X-Frank-X, this is neither an easy topic nor something where a "best way" is currently paved or defined
18:14:29 <frosch123> so, i would put it differently. newgrfs are for controlling simple entities of which there are a lot of
18:14:39 <planetmaker> like towns? ;-)
18:14:43 <frosch123> scripts are for controlling big entities where there is only a few of
18:14:53 <Terkhen> true :P
18:14:57 <Terkhen> and yes, I agree with that
18:14:58 <X-Frank-X> :-)
18:15:12 <planetmaker> sounds like a good distinction
18:15:38 <X-Frank-X> ok... So got a few options anyway now :-) lol...
18:16:05 <X-Frank-X> will just check first what the boundaries of the different options are...
18:16:06 <planetmaker> but... to me that sounds like "towns are newgrfs", especially as they exist partially there. Still. For a goal framework town growth mechanisms is IMHO (for now) secondary
18:16:22 <frosch123> planetmaker: newgrf are for growing a single town
18:16:25 <X-Frank-X> ^
18:16:34 <frosch123> a script is for balancing the growth across the whole map
18:16:34 <planetmaker> frosch123: yes
18:16:56 <planetmaker> that I agree with. No parent object "region" or "map" for the town feature ;-)
18:17:37 <Terkhen> but then you need to be able to allow access to specific towns via NewGRF
18:17:49 <Terkhen> the planned town control affected all of them
18:18:20 <frosch123> Terkhen: the town control is for making towns react to indidivual triggers for them, like cargo delivery
18:18:33 <X-Frank-X> yeps
18:18:42 <X-Frank-X> so crucial for a city builder script
18:18:44 <frosch123> scripts would be for making the total population of the world grow from 1950-1970 in the northern part of the map
18:18:45 <X-Frank-X> I guess
18:18:50 <frosch123> and after that only in the southern part
18:19:09 <X-Frank-X> ah
18:19:09 <Terkhen> and how would the script and the town control NewGRF interact?
18:19:41 <planetmaker> like two vehicle newgrfs w/o engine pool: both just do their thing ;-)
18:19:52 <frosch123> X-Frank-X: also, newgrfs have simple decision making. they are not turing-complete and work with decision trees and very few storages. scripts on the otherhand are normal imperative programming
18:20:03 <Terkhen> but that's not comparable, in this case the script and the NewGRF are expected to work together
18:20:04 <frosch123> Terkhen: you have to merge it somehow
18:20:08 <frosch123> which would be the job of ottd
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18:20:34 <planetmaker> a non-trivial task
18:20:37 <Terkhen> yes
18:20:42 <frosch123> yup :p
18:21:12 <X-Frank-X> so actually to implement "some" goal at first we can just start with the company value goal which seems the easiest right now?
18:21:28 <Terkhen> yes :P
18:21:31 <X-Frank-X> that doesn't need any town script or whatever
18:21:40 <X-Frank-X> you just start to build towards the goal
18:22:11 <planetmaker> yes.
18:22:45 <X-Frank-X> maybe playing against a AI, allthough AI's are WAY better when they are well scripted ;-)
18:22:46 <planetmaker> similarily one can check vehicles and their count and profit...
18:22:47 <frosch123> you could also restrict actions of players
18:22:59 <planetmaker> X-Frank-X: are they?
18:23:04 <frosch123> like, they may only build in one town at the start
18:23:04 <X-Frank-X> well
18:23:11 <X-Frank-X> right
18:23:13 <X-Frank-X> good one
18:23:31 <X-Frank-X> or "from" one town building to the next resource
18:23:35 <frosch123> though i would like to see the ai which can handle that :p
18:23:40 <Terkhen> :P
18:23:48 <frosch123> so, maybe goals should know about human vs. ai
18:24:00 <X-Frank-X> well
18:24:26 <X-Frank-X> maybe a long shot, but we could make some AI's like: Rookie, normal, difficult and whatever
18:24:29 <X-Frank-X> just like Quake ;-)
18:24:31 <planetmaker> frosch123: they probably should, yes
18:24:32 <X-Frank-X> lol
18:24:47 <planetmaker> X-Frank-X: AIs implement that of sorts
18:25:03 <X-Frank-X> so we got some base allready? :-P
18:25:04 <frosch123> scripts could also modify the cost structure
18:25:12 <frosch123> make stuff for ais cheap
18:25:17 <frosch123> and expensive for players
18:25:25 <planetmaker> :-D
18:25:29 <frosch123> do stuff like the terraforming limit etc
18:25:33 <planetmaker> or simply general on a per-company basis
18:25:35 * Terkhen wasn't kidding when he said that the biggest problem of this feature is defining its scope
18:25:47 <Terkhen> :P
18:26:14 <X-Frank-X> hmmm
18:26:28 <frosch123> Terkhen: in any case you will very quickly also reach the question: what shall be done in ottd itself, and what in scripts
18:26:35 <frosch123> just like for newgrfs :p
18:26:50 <burtybob> Sorry was afk but yeah we want to have a admin interface that we can use instead of having to type rcon to change things we can click buttons lol.
18:26:54 <Terkhen> yes, most of Alberth's issues with town control via NewGRFs are related to that
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18:27:21 <planetmaker> burty... hmpf
18:27:51 <frosch123> Terkhen: yeah, but imo the term "newgrf" is wrong in that sentence. it should be "plugin"
18:28:37 <X-Frank-X> burty: are you aiming on multiplayer server now or is this something out of that scope?
18:28:40 <Terkhen> newgrfs are now the same than plugins? :P
18:28:46 <andythenorth> twitter coverage of london riots is quite exciting
18:28:50 <X-Frank-X> with restrictions I guess
18:28:51 <andythenorth> newgrfs are add-ons
18:28:53 <planetmaker> he left, x-frank-x
18:28:56 <X-Frank-X> oh
18:28:57 <X-Frank-X> lol
18:28:59 <planetmaker> but it can only be used on servers
18:29:01 <frosch123> either you do everything in plugins, which pop up quickly, conflict with each other, are not maintained and vanish. or you do everything in a monolithical ottd :p
18:29:03 <X-Frank-X> oops, I see now ;-)
18:29:27 <Terkhen> frosch123: neither sounds good
18:29:33 <Terkhen> hmmmmmmmmmmmm
18:29:37 <Terkhen> this issue is so complicated
18:29:39 <planetmaker> catch 22
18:29:54 <X-Frank-X> lol, sorry bout that ;-)
18:29:56 <Terkhen> maybe we should remake the whole game in C#
18:30:02 <X-Frank-X> lol
18:30:04 <Terkhen> C# solves everything
18:30:18 <X-Frank-X> does it?
18:30:25 <planetmaker> yes, same as java
18:30:25 <Terkhen> nah, but someone thought it did
18:30:28 <X-Frank-X> lol
18:31:09 <Terkhen> heh, that was a good one
18:31:25 <Terkhen> "let's remake openttd in java, it is great for making appsmultiplatform"
18:31:44 <X-Frank-X> yeah... and to crash your computer and fuck up stuff
18:31:49 * Terkhen wonders if java works in all platforms supported by openttd
18:31:50 <X-Frank-X> great!
18:31:56 <Rubidium> java isn't that bad
18:31:59 <X-Frank-X> well
18:32:00 <X-Frank-X> I know
18:32:06 <X-Frank-X> just wanted to say something ;-)
18:32:07 <Rubidium> okay, since oracle it's getting worse
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18:32:33 <Rubidium> although I'd argue that a java implementation of OpenTTD would be better than a LabView one
18:32:41 <X-Frank-X> depends on the quality of code Rubidium
18:32:48 <X-Frank-X> and there's alot of crap out there
18:33:03 <X-Frank-X> labView? :-S
18:33:06 <frosch123> the inter-version compatibility of labview is worse than osx :p
18:33:09 <X-Frank-X> WTF is LabView?
18:33:10 <Terkhen> heh
18:33:10 <Terkhen> :D
18:33:18 <planetmaker> burtybob: it'd be quite interesting to have such server control script open-sourced
18:33:43 <planetmaker>
18:33:43 <burtybob> It's only based off of JOAN
18:33:46 <frosch123> X-Frank-X: the ideal language to code something and make the ceo think he understands it
18:33:56 <X-Frank-X> :D
18:33:56 <planetmaker> burtybob: yes, the better
18:34:47 <Rubidium> frosch123: and to make totally untraceable crap :(
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18:35:56 <X-Frank-X> soooooo, to get back on topic, did you guys see that beta of the citybuilder script for 0.7.1?
18:36:15 <X-Frank-X>
18:36:25 <Rubidium> the one that did if (command == "!stats") { ... } ?
18:36:40 <X-Frank-X> the code is old, but the approach was rather nice I thought for a multiplayer server!
18:36:54 <X-Frank-X> uhm
18:36:58 <X-Frank-X> no idea actually :D
18:37:04 <X-Frank-X> didn't study it that well
18:37:06 <X-Frank-X> yet
18:37:21 <X-Frank-X> yes, so it seems :d
18:37:28 <X-Frank-X> lol
18:38:06 <Rubidium> that was roughly the moment I considered it "not finished"
18:38:24 <X-Frank-X> lol
18:38:25 <X-Frank-X> + else if ( strcmp(msg, "!rules") == 0 )
18:38:25 <X-Frank-X> + CB_handleTextCommand(from_id, (char*)"rules", false);
18:38:32 <X-Frank-X> well
18:38:41 <X-Frank-X> that seems a bit "to the point :P"
18:38:44 <Rubidium> X-Frank-X: further down
18:38:59 <X-Frank-X> I know ;-)
18:39:09 <__ln__> explicitly casting a string literal to char*?
18:39:25 <X-Frank-X> well
18:39:30 <X-Frank-X> I guess it worked for him ;-)
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18:41:34 <Rubidium> only by sheer luck that the compiler saw the same strings and deduplicated them
18:43:24 <X-Frank-X> but I was actually aiming on the approach and the idea, not the code!
18:43:44 <X-Frank-X> I guess apart from the code you get the idea? :-P
18:44:17 <X-Frank-X> First you claim a town, then you let that town grow by supplying it with fresh goods.
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18:44:48 <planetmaker> that idea is known...
18:44:53 <X-Frank-X> right ;-)
18:44:58 <X-Frank-X> ok
18:47:31 <Terkhen> X-Frank-X:
18:49:00 <X-Frank-X> thanks
18:49:36 <Terkhen> that's an example of a very specific implementation
18:49:45 <Terkhen> I'd prefer a generic one :P
18:49:59 <X-Frank-X> :-)
18:50:37 <andythenorth>
18:51:08 <Terkhen> oh, I forgot that one :)
18:51:35 <X-Frank-X> lol, ok, I guess i am a little late to join that discussion ;-)
18:52:00 <Terkhen> you can join eternal discussions at any time
18:52:17 <X-Frank-X> eternal :D
18:52:18 <X-Frank-X> lol
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18:55:33 <andythenorth> is the suggestions forum safe to read today?
18:56:02 <frosch123> has it ever been?
18:56:24 <SpComb> there's a suggestions forum?
18:56:54 <andythenorth> I accidentally read the problems forum earlier
18:57:04 <andythenorth> glad I don' go in there much
18:57:19 <Terkhen> andythenorth: you already killed the "NewGRFs I can't be bothered to do" thread, looking for more victims?
18:57:41 <andythenorth> I killed that :o
18:57:44 <Terkhen> yes :P
18:57:49 <andythenorth> I meant to encourage it :P
18:58:04 <andythenorth> the world is under-supplied with stupidity
18:58:07 <Terkhen> there was an answer, but no one else dared to continue the discussion :P
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19:02:14 <Elish4> uhm :D
19:02:19 <Elish4> I have new idea
19:02:24 <X-Frank-X> ???
19:02:27 <Elish4> how to upgrade openttd
19:02:34 <Elish4> for lets say version 10.0
19:03:01 <frosch123> just call marty mcfly, maybe he collects you
19:03:14 <Elish4> make a world like earth - orbit you don't have border - like google earth :D
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19:05:17 <X-Frank-X> ok, I will shut up :-X
19:06:18 <Elish4> this kind of requires 3d
19:06:31 <Terkhen> Elish4: that would be a new game, see this thread for similar suggestions and answers similar to the one we could give you:
19:06:58 <planetmaker> just start with a "simple" goal framework... :-)
19:07:18 <Terkhen> :D
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19:08:12 <X-Frank-X> lol
19:08:43 <SpComb> I vote for underground building
19:09:28 <Prof_Frink> I vote for an "export balance" button.
19:10:17 <Elish4> Terkhen: those are only lists of wanted features
19:10:26 <Elish4> there's no earthlike view :p
19:11:14 <planetmaker> also called wrap-around or sphere
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19:39:15 <Elish4> OpenTTD Evolved
19:39:21 <Elish4> with 3D earth
19:39:51 <frosch123> 3d is crap
19:40:07 <frosch123> all good games use basically 2d
19:40:36 <Pikka> except the ones that don't
19:40:40 <frosch123> take sc2 for a modern example
19:40:49 <Elish4> you can use old 3d graphic cards
19:41:00 <frosch123> sure you can look around somewhat 3dish, but the game itself is 2d
19:41:03 <Elish4> everyone hs it
19:41:25 <Elish4> it probably uses 3d rendering
19:42:26 <Elish4> u need above average graphics for sc2
19:43:02 <Ammler> well map rotating would be fun
19:43:13 <Ammler> or cliffs
19:43:14 <frosch123> i have no idea what "average graphics" are :)
19:43:25 <Elish4> look
19:43:37 <Elish4> nvidia has 4 rounded classes
19:43:44 <Elish4> 20, 40, 60, 80
19:44:08 <Elish4> 20, 40 for "ordinary" users... 60, 80 for "gamers"
19:44:10 <andythenorth> it's pikka !
19:44:15 <andythenorth> hello Pikka !
19:44:17 <Elish4> 60 are on budget gamers
19:44:18 <Elish4> :D
19:44:20 <Pikka> isn't it though
19:44:23 <Pikka> hello andy!
19:44:24 <Elish4> that's above average
19:44:32 <andythenorth> Pikka: are you planning to spread riots!
19:44:34 <frosch123> Elish4: i have 580. what does that count for? :p
19:44:40 <andythenorth> social media causes riots
19:44:46 <Elish4> frosch123: ultimate experience :D
19:44:54 <Pikka> am I social media?
19:44:55 <Elish4> I have 280
19:45:13 <glx> 450 here
19:45:13 <andythenorth> Pikka: probably :P
19:45:54 <Elish4> totally enough for me.. new games on 1920x1200 no hickups
19:46:18 <Elish4> I only wouldn't buy newer because it doesn't have 512bit memory bus
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19:46:18 <Pikka> what are these riots?
19:47:28 <andythenorth> they're all in the big london :P
19:47:38 <andythenorth> we already had our riot
19:47:40 <andythenorth> about tesco
19:47:43 <Pikka> oh, I heard of some of them, are there more?
19:47:43 <andythenorth> now they're copying :P
19:47:49 <Pikka> typical
19:47:59 <Elish4> heard on the news
19:48:14 <Elish4> 1000km away:D who cares :p
19:48:16 <andythenorth> Pikka: I have been testing your TAI thing for you
19:48:17 <glx> I remember when we had ours
19:48:24 <andythenorth> I can confirm that it is good ;)
19:48:30 <Pikka> andy: and which bugs have you found? :P
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19:48:44 <frosch123> Elish4: hmm, i think i failed with the product numbering. i hoped there would be no geforce with that number
19:48:45 <Pikka> and you mean the houses?
19:49:02 <frosch123> as i have quadro fx, no geforce
19:49:03 <Elish4> frosch123: which one?
19:49:12 <Elish4> 580 does exist
19:49:12 <andythenorth> Pikka: the houses indeed
19:49:17 * Pikka should work on the industries some time, I've been without working farms in OpenTTD for about 9 months now
19:49:27 <andythenorth> I provided my own :P
19:49:33 <planetmaker> :-)
19:49:43 <planetmaker> new PBI?
19:49:56 <Pikka> yes, although it's TaI now
19:50:06 <planetmaker> also 'hello' :-)
19:50:11 <planetmaker> ah, TaI
19:50:16 <Pikka> I wanted to make the farms more interesting, I got as far as turning off the default production and then forgot about it :)
19:50:23 <planetmaker> :-P
19:50:29 <planetmaker> makes it "interesting" ;-)
19:50:41 <Elish4> there one option would be bridge connected in the middle of the air
19:50:51 <Elish4> crossroads on the bridge
19:51:09 <Elish4> there are real world example of this :)
19:51:24 <Elish4> examples*
19:51:25 <andythenorth> Elish4: <1000km for some people :P
19:51:27 <Elish4> I know of one
19:51:36 <Elish4> andythenorth: I believe you :p
19:51:40 <planetmaker> Pikka: did you fix the "towns do not grow anymore" thing which leads to building infintiely many roads?
19:51:50 <planetmaker> (I've not thought about a good solution, though...)
19:52:04 <Pikka> infinitely many roads?
19:52:07 <Pikka> I haven't seen that
19:52:09 <planetmaker> not growing is beyond whatever is a nice idea...
19:52:27 <planetmaker> last time I checked - which is quite a bit ago - towns were limited to a certain size
19:52:54 * Hirundo is glad, there is a pond between /me and London
19:52:56 <planetmaker> and towns had a "ring of roads" in a manner of speaking as they were not permitted to build houses anymore
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19:53:22 <planetmaker> but... it's long ago... and I'd probably need to check that again
19:53:31 <Pikka> well, they can build roads out beyond where they can build buildings, but it's not really a problem as far as I can see
19:53:48 <andythenorth> the only problem I had was getting slaughtered by YACD + TAI :P
19:53:56 <andythenorth> it took me about 7 attempts to survive
19:54:17 <Pikka> it's most noticeable if you have OpenTTD "cities" with high additional growth
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19:56:06 <frosch123> Hirundo: do you know the story that in the beginning all idiots were on an island separated from the rest until the insane ones digged a tunnel? :p
19:56:17 <SmatZ> so... the soldiers who supposedly killed bin Laden died in a Chinook...
19:56:20 <Pikka> andy: we really need peter1138 to set up a server for us again. :P
19:56:59 <Hirundo> I did not, but it explains a lot :)
19:57:03 <KittenKoder> Anyone know the 3D rotation vector for sloped tracks?
19:57:29 <KittenKoder> 11 degrees is the closest I have gotten, but it still won't line up right.
19:57:44 <planetmaker> well, it gives strange empty "suburbs"
19:58:07 <Pikka> if you "grow" towns in the scenario editor, yes
19:58:21 <Pikka> if you just play and let them grow naturally, no. in my experience at least. :)
19:58:41 <planetmaker> <-- I mean a town looking like this, Pikka
19:59:01 <Hirundo> empty suburbs are bad, they have no shops to loot </troll mode>
19:59:04 <Pikka> ^^
19:59:35 <Pikka> if you grow a town in the scenario editor past its population limit you'll get that effect, yes
19:59:46 <planetmaker> you get that also ingame
19:59:57 <Pikka> but not to the same extent
20:00:00 * KittenKoder has never seen that in game.
20:00:22 <planetmaker> Why should it be different, Pikka?
20:00:30 <planetmaker> it's the same growth algorithm
20:00:36 <Pikka> and less so if you don't use openttd's "city" feature.
20:00:37 <frosch123> KittenKoder: a flat tile has 64x32 pixels. the one slope adds 8 pixels vertically
20:01:03 <planetmaker> "city" only defines the growth speed an initial size
20:01:08 <Pikka> planetmaker, you're forcing the city to grow a large amount at one point in time in the scenario editor
20:01:31 <planetmaker> technically it's the same as many small steps
20:01:34 <Pikka> if you just play normally, and without cities, most if not all towns will spawn considerably below their limit
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20:01:55 <planetmaker> Yes, but I talk about how my towns looked after 70 years of playing or so
20:02:05 <planetmaker> which was very similar for the well-serviced ones
20:02:27 <Pikka> and, since the limit increases as time goes by, they're unlikely to outstrip the limit by much, and only gradually. :)
20:02:27 <KittenKoder> >.< frosch123, that's not what I really mean.
20:02:27 <andythenorth> frosch123: that's a big island you guys are on :P
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20:03:18 <Pikka> also I don't tend to play on big flat maps and without building/editing roads myself, so I guess I would see that less than you do. :P
20:03:59 <Pikka> SmatZ, "None of the SEAL team members who died in the crash took part in the raid that killed bin Laden.", apparently.
20:04:08 <KittenKoder> I use 3D modeling programs, not good with hand drawing anything, and the rotation for sloped tracks I just can't get right.
20:04:50 <Pikka> KittenKoder: that is what you mean, you just need to do the maths
20:05:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: it even only needs a peninsula
20:05:32 * KittenKoder is not good at 2D to 3D maths.
20:05:39 <frosch123> (though that joke might not work in english)
20:05:46 <andythenorth> no it doesn't :p
20:06:10 <frosch123> peninsula is a "half island" in german
20:06:53 <andythenorth> ah
20:07:13 <Rubidium> KittenKoder: I think the problem is that 3D modelling applications use perspective, whereas OpenTTD's graphics don't
20:07:25 <Pikka> Rubidium: not necessarily
20:07:30 <KittenKoder> You can raytrace with orthographic cameras.
20:07:48 <Pikka> it's about 11.5 deg iirc from my locomotion days, KittenKoder
20:07:52 <KittenKoder> Doing isometric in 3D is simply a matter of camera angles and tricks.
20:08:16 <Rubidium> well, then I guess it's documented somewhere in the graphics fora
20:08:17 <KittenKoder> Hmm, thanks Pikka ....
20:08:46 <KittenKoder> Rubidium, most people can figure it out by themselves, I just couldn't for some reason.
20:09:15 <Pikka> I don't know if/where I put my files to check though
20:09:50 <KittenKoder> 11.5 sounds better, I was nearing 11.3 but redoing it all over and over again was just getting to be a pain.
20:09:56 <X-Frank-X> ok guys, bedtime
20:09:59 <X-Frank-X> speak to you later!
20:10:07 <andythenorth> KittenKoder: depending on the CGI app, you can turn off perspective in the camera (you might have done that already)
20:10:24 <KittenKoder> As it is, I am going to recreate the whole sprite sheet anyway, the offsets and everything are a mess.
20:10:46 <KittenKoder> andythenorth, I am a bit experienced with 3D modeling apps. ;)
20:11:00 <KittenKoder> Specifically, Blender.
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20:11:08 * andythenorth ponders getting Blender
20:11:17 <andythenorth> my CGI days are long long ago
20:11:26 <KittenKoder> Blender is nice, but lately it and Ubuntu have been hating each other for some reason.
20:11:44 <KittenKoder> Haven't had the energy to upgrade my primary PC to Gentoo though.
20:12:20 <KittenKoder> Some of my older work:
20:12:30 <KittenKoder> Experimentations.
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20:15:52 <Pikka> I so can't remember any trig
20:16:26 <Prof_Frink> sohcahtoa.
20:17:48 <Pikka> but I get a slope of 12.6 degrees by my rather dodgy calculations
20:18:54 <frosch123> screen or world coordinates?
20:19:06 <Pikka> or actually
20:20:25 <Pikka> possibly 10.02. I don't know!
20:20:32 <Pikka> I tried :]
20:21:55 <KittenKoder> 12.6 was my first result to.
20:22:32 <KittenKoder> But it was a bit too much, noticeably so once lined up.
20:23:05 <KittenKoder> Odd, the tiles are 64x32 iso, right?
20:23:57 <KittenKoder> Everything has 64x31 ....
20:26:53 <Pikka> they're drawn 64x31, yes, because of the way the borders line up
20:27:04 <KittenKoder> Aaah, duh. >.<
20:27:05 <KittenKoder> LOL
20:27:36 <Pikka> the "sides" of the tiles touch, meaning there's a one pixel gap between the "top" and "bottom" :)
20:28:46 <KittenKoder> This could explain why I have had a hard time getting things lined up.
20:29:03 <Pikka> what are you trying to render?
20:29:40 <KittenKoder> Working on a new maglev track.
20:29:48 <Pikka> oh, cool. :)
20:29:56 <KittenKoder> Well, will be, right now I'm figuring out the nuances of the NewGRF stuff.
20:30:18 <KittenKoder> I REALLY don't like the standard maglev track, it's fugly.
20:30:33 <Pikka> I was going to say, there are further complications to drawing trains and road vehicles, as the dimensions of the diagonal sprites are not, in any way, accurate. :)
20:30:34 <KittenKoder> But the one I do like seems to play havoc with bridge graphics.
20:30:54 <KittenKoder> I found your templates on the wiki for those.
20:30:56 <KittenKoder> :p
20:31:26 <Pikka> :)
20:31:58 <KittenKoder> I was thinking that once I get this all figured out I will make a "futuristic" vehicle set based on sci-fi movies.
20:32:07 <KittenKoder> Mostly Maglev though.
20:32:12 <Pikka> eek :)
20:32:24 <KittenKoder> But more reasonable than the original ones. >.<
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20:32:33 <KittenKoder> They get insane with the speeds.
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20:32:51 <KittenKoder> I just want variety, I love variety.
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20:42:14 <KittenKoder> Figured out with NML I can make a really cool "base" layout+template.
20:47:33 <burtybob> I've heard a lot of talk (and been shot down a couple of times) about breaking NewGRF compatibility. I am wondering if there is any documentation on the code about how to work with NewGRF features within the C++ code. For example if I wanted to edit something but not break the grf compat
20:48:37 <Hirundo> you really need to be more specific if you want specific (and useful) advice
20:51:46 <burtybob> for example if I was doing some modifications to the industries but needed to make sure that it was compatible with the NewGRF system still
20:52:22 <KittenKoder> You should just make a NewGRF then.
20:55:14 <burtybob> Do you remember the old "budgets and workforce" patch a couple of years ago?
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21:04:58 <burtybob> The whole NewGRF coding docs looks a whole lot better than it used to!
21:05:15 <Terkhen> yes, they have been improved a lot lately :P
21:05:47 <KittenKoder> NML docs still need a little work though. :p
21:06:19 <KittenKoder> However I am very impressed with NML.
21:06:48 <burtybob> Still better than when I last looked *shudders*. I looked and was like WTF how does anyone understand this. Now it's easy to read, well explained and I actually feel as if I could learn something. Although to be honest I am more interested in C++ work than NML
21:06:51 <Terkhen> yes, NML makes everything easier :P
21:07:40 <Hirundo> KittenKoder: If you have (suggestions for) additions/improvements, please let me know
21:07:42 <KittenKoder> It's not easy making a new language for something.
21:08:00 <KittenKoder> Hirundo, I may, after I figure out more of it. ;)
21:08:28 <KittenKoder> Though, an explanation on the extent of templates and what they are truly capable of would be nice.
21:08:44 <KittenKoder> There's a lot of stuff they can do that I just found on accident.
21:09:07 <KittenKoder> They are almost as powerful as c templating.
21:10:11 <KittenKoder> Oh, also, an explanation of how to use the animated palettes specifically would be nice, but that could just be my lack of finding it.
21:11:28 <Hirundo> animated palettes... as in the colours used for the sea and such?
21:11:48 <KittenKoder> Yeah.
21:12:10 <Hirundo> You might want to check up in that case
21:12:33 <KittenKoder> I can't find much on the NewGRF information for it, but even if I did I don't know how to control it for NML. I wind up with colors getting mapped wrong.
21:12:45 <KittenKoder> Well, that's awesome, thank you for that.
21:12:59 <Hirundo> basically, avoid all the 'special' colours
21:13:17 <Hirundo> and yes, it needs to be added to / referenced from the NML docs, you're right :)
21:14:01 <KittenKoder> The page you posted just now helps me out with even more to. ^_^ I love this channel.
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21:15:08 <KittenKoder> Offsets were bothering me because they didn't make sense ... until now.
21:15:31 <frosch123> what? firs has no construction stages?
21:15:59 <KittenKoder> Some of them do, if you mean by the graphics.
21:16:35 <frosch123> <- KittenKoder: if you want to know more about palette animation
21:17:21 <KittenKoder> Meh, tried that app, only helped a little. ;) I'm a doc person more than a look and feel.
21:17:34 <KittenKoder> Thanks though.
21:17:42 <frosch123> then take a look at the code :p
21:18:10 <KittenKoder> :p
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21:19:34 <KittenKoder> Right now I'm a bit more busy working on a Gimp template.
21:27:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22731 /trunk/src/ (3 files): -Fix: [NewGRF] The construction stage sprites were incorrectly selected in cases other than 1 or 4 sprites per set.
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21:33:06 <frosch123> night
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21:34:43 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: You seem to have read my mind with your curve speed comment ;)
21:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure i said the same thing a year or two ago already ;)
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21:55:57 <planetmaker> good night
22:05:34 <__ln__> when Spock is dubbed to non-english, can one still hear he's from Boston rather than Vulcan?
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22:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: nobody speaks dialect in german dubs...
22:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (that's the first thing i noticed when i started watching things in original language)
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22:12:47 <__ln__> not even lietenant commander Scott?
22:12:49 <__ln__> +u
22:13:12 <KittenKoder> There is only one dialect in German!
22:13:15 <KittenKoder> The right one!
22:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i do think he spoke some small dialect
22:13:16 <KittenKoder> :p
22:13:50 <KittenKoder> Whoo .... that took a little work to get all worked out.
22:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but the only dubbed show i remember where they really spoke dialect was hogans heroes
22:14:15 <KittenKoder> I now have a Gimp image file that will help me line everything up right ... I hope.
22:14:43 <__ln__> Spock's dialect can be heard when he says 'hwy, hwat, hwere' rather than 'why, what, where'.. otherwise not very dialectish.
22:15:33 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking dialect in german makes you quickly come across as uneducated
22:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "only stupid villagers speak dialect"
22:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so unless you are the "Bulle von Tölz", nobody speaks dialect
22:16:45 <__ln__> i see
22:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you frequently hear dialect in cheap "reality" shows
22:18:55 <__ln__> in the blu-ray extras of Star Trek (2009) there's a great short clip of Kirk and Spock performing a scene from the movie in (exaggerated) scottish dialect
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22:26:31 <KittenKoder> So .... what about multiple files with NML?
22:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> KittenKoder: typically the c-preprocessor is used for that
22:27:05 <KittenKoder> >.< Not what I mean.
22:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so what do you mean then?
22:27:30 <KittenKoder> Like includes, headers.
22:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's exactly what the c-preprocessor does
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22:28:32 <KittenKoder> So ... there is no statement in the NML file itself for including a file?
22:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> no
22:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> why invent something twice?
22:29:33 <KittenKoder> So one can use one single language through most of a project. ;)
22:29:49 <KittenKoder> But meh.
22:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need another language to use the c-preprocessor
22:30:55 <KittenKoder> Okay, I really don't understand what NML is, still learning the basics, from what I saw it was just a "translator" to NFO.
22:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there is a ready-made makefile that does all this stuff for you
22:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> al compilers are "translators" from one language to another
22:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause> typically from a higher language to a lower
22:31:45 <KittenKoder> Granted.
22:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> here NML is the higher language and NFO is the lower language
22:32:19 <KittenKoder> Just not sure what NML does itself.
22:32:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or actually GRF is the lower language
22:32:37 <KittenKoder> Yeah.
22:32:43 <KittenKoder> NFO is like an aseembly language.
22:33:00 <KittenKoder> From what I saw of it at least.
22:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> grfcodec translates NFO->GRF and GRF->NFO and nmlc trnaslates NML->GRF
22:33:41 <KittenKoder> So NML actually uses c as a backbone?
22:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no
22:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> not at all
22:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the c-preprocessor is independent from the c-language
22:34:11 <KittenKoder> Then why would a c-preprocessor be used?
22:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the preprocessor handles "#define", "#include" etc.
22:34:46 <KittenKoder> Aaah, so those statements work in NML.
22:34:58 <KittenKoder> ? Should have been a question.
22:35:11 <Eddi|zuHause> not out of the box, you need to call the preprocessor explicitly
22:35:25 <KittenKoder> Using a makefile.
22:35:48 <KittenKoder> I have always hated makefile work. >.<
22:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's a two-step process: "cpp mygrf.pnml -o mygrf.nml" and "nmlc mygrf.nml"
22:36:14 <Eddi|zuHause> or something along this line
22:36:33 <KittenKoder> Aaah, that clarifies the Swedish rails files.
22:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> .pnml is standard extension for nml files that need preprocessing
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22:37:32 <KittenKoder> Then which is tnml for?
22:37:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also .pnfo files, which follow the same two-step process with grfcodec
22:37:36 <KittenKoder> Standard wise.
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22:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, not seen that yet
22:38:06 <Hirundo> nml template (not to be confused with sprite template)
22:38:12 <KittenKoder> Swedish rails seems to use it for macros.
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22:38:27 <KittenKoder> Aaah, thank you Hirundo
22:38:52 <Hirundo> the general pattern is #define A #define B #include template.tnml #undef A #undef B
22:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, that makes sense
22:39:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so we probably have a few misnamed files in cets :p
22:39:59 <KittenKoder> I have been spoiled with Java and Eclipse for so long .... not use to all the command line work anymore.
22:40:16 <Hirundo> then template.tnml contains some NML code that uses A and B as parameters somewhere
22:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure you can teach eclipse to handle the nml makefile :p
22:40:33 <KittenKoder> Probably.
22:40:37 <KittenKoder> But why?
22:40:38 <KittenKoder> :p
22:41:08 <KittenKoder> Just because I'm bumbling around to adjust to this again, doesn't mean it's not fun.
22:41:28 <KittenKoder> Actually, it's gotten me excited about coding again.
22:42:13 <KittenKoder> I had gotten so bored with programming lately, I still haven't even done any real projects other than for work.
22:42:47 <KittenKoder> ... and those don't really count as programming anymore. >.<
22:45:21 <KittenKoder> I was thinking, the animated colors work on tracks, would it annoy people to have something in the ballist that uses those?
22:46:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. definitely
22:46:43 <KittenKoder> :p
22:47:14 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine a hundred rail tiles on the screen, all blinking the same way synchronously
22:47:46 <KittenKoder> Was thinking more of a pulsating thing along the maglev track.
22:48:11 <KittenKoder> With the deep water color spectrum.
22:49:10 <KittenKoder> What I may wind up doing is a complete sci-fi set for the future play.
22:49:26 <KittenKoder> .... eventually, if I can keep interested in this.
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22:50:41 <Eddi|zuHause> just don't end up like the guy who wanted to make "ottd 500 years in the future"
22:51:01 <KittenKoder> o.O
22:51:31 <KittenKoder> I said I may wind up doing it, just because I like making sci-fi things.
22:51:39 <KittenKoder> It's not my goal.
22:52:44 <Eddi|zuHause> he was like "i spent a year making up this elaborate plans, now you people need to code it" and opened like 10 threads, even demanding an own subforum
22:53:07 <KittenKoder> That's just .... lame
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22:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i leave it to your imagination to guess how many lines of actual code were written :p
22:54:01 <KittenKoder> I was thinking though, on a side tracked note, it would be nice to have a more variable economy with something like FIRS.
22:54:43 <burtybob> I might be over complicating things here but how does "setdparam" know which string I want parsed?
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22:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> burtybob: setdparam only pushes a value to the stack, the call to evaluate the string is done later
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23:01:46 <Eddi|zuHause> burtybob: so if i have a string like "STR_WEIGHT_POWER :Weight:{WEIGHT} Power: {POWER}" i'd do "SetDParam(power); SetDParam(weight); DrawString(STR_WEIGHT_POWER)"
23:02:32 <Eddi|zuHause> burtybob: since it's a stack, evaluation will be backwards
23:03:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (at least i think so, i might be horribly wrong though)
23:04:30 <burtybob> thanks
23:04:35 <KittenKoder> Well, stacks are more dynamic now, though I don't know what language you are talking, most times you can access either way.
23:05:27 <burtybob> I'm talking C++
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23:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause> KittenKoder: this is the string/grammar system of openttd
23:06:15 <KittenKoder> Then I don't know.
23:06:17 <KittenKoder> :p
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23:07:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and yes, strings, especially in translations with different word order, may do things like "Power: {1:POWER} Weight: {0:WEIGHT}" to access the items in different orders
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23:08:24 <burtybob> That wouldn't be my worry. That's up to the translators to worry about word order ;)
23:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (might be off about the syntax here)
23:09:15 <burtybob> the how to use there doesn't really make a lot of sense but does explain the usage :S
23:10:17 <Endymion_Mallorn> Good evening. I'm using OpenTTD 1.1.1, and I'll be honest, I'm really new at the game. So I have a simple question: is there any form of intermodal transport incorporated in OpenTTD?
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23:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Endymion_Mallorn: you can simulate intermodal transport with "transfer and leave empty" orders
23:11:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it works only one-way though, so don't use this for passengers, mail or valuables
23:12:13 <pjpe> what about transfer and take cargo
23:12:34 <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: that loads the same cargo you just unloaded, so it generally doesn't make any sense
23:13:12 <pjpe> huh
23:13:12 <burtybob> I've never made sense of that either
23:13:14 <pjpe> did not know that
23:14:03 <Endymion_Mallorn> Okay, so I can pick up, say, Wood, in a truck, transport it to a station, and bring it to the Sawmill by ship if the dock's coverage area includes the truck station where I dropped the Wood off?
23:14:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Endymion_Mallorn: must be the same station (build with Ctrl pressed)
23:14:52 <burtybob> Drat. He beat me to it ^^
23:15:31 <Endymion_Mallorn> And I can build both the dock and the truck station with that command?
23:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Endymion_Mallorn: the station sign must show both a truck and a ship icon
23:16:19 <KittenKoder> If you use ctrl then it will open a menu of the stations you can connect it to.
23:16:43 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, I just saw how to do it. Awesome. Thanks! That little trick is great.
23:17:26 <Endymion_Mallorn> If I build that way, is it still impossible to have Passengers go from a bus to a ship?
23:17:33 <burtybob> Yes
23:18:04 <burtybob> As long as you do the transfer order on the bus to the bus stop that is linked to the dock
23:18:15 * burtybob kicks compiler
23:18:45 <Endymion_Mallorn> Excellent. Thank you for all your help. I'll probably be back later with even more questions.
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23:19:02 <burtybob> Someone is always around and always willing to help :)
23:19:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well, there is typically a very low usage time between like 4am and 8am :p
23:19:56 <burtybob> What time zone?
23:19:59 <burtybob> GMT?
23:21:23 <lessthanthree> can't use 2cc train set with toyland? :(
23:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the majority of people here are CE(S)T
23:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> lessthanthree: if the authors didn't want you to, there's nothing we can do.
23:23:26 <lessthanthree> oh, i meant it more in a "I'm not sure, does anyone know?" sort of way.
23:24:44 <pjpe> don't put on toy land you ninny
23:24:46 <pjpe> i was joking
23:24:59 <lessthanthree> haha
23:30:15 <pjpe> i can't even connect to the server without freezing and dropping a few seconds later
23:34:09 <Terkhen> good night
23:38:38 <burtybob> night
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