IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-08-11
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04:04:45 <Endymion_Mallorn> Hi. Is there a NewGRF compatible with 1.1.1 that creates some road vehicles before 1930?
04:05:39 <KittenKoder> One sec, I forgot the name of it.
04:06:43 <KittenKoder> eGRVTS
04:06:55 <KittenKoder> Most are horse drawn to, which is just cool.
04:07:44 <Endymion_Mallorn> Thank you.
04:08:09 <KittenKoder> You're welcome.
04:08:40 <Endymion_Mallorn> Do I need to enable any dependencies, or will it "just work" when I pull it up in the NewGRFs window?
04:09:33 <KittenKoder> As long as you have the latest OpenTTD it will just work.
04:15:04 <Endymion_Mallorn> That's great. Thank you.
04:15:09 <Endymion_Mallorn> Have a good night
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05:55:24 <pjpe> isn't 2cc supposed to have parameters to disable trains from certain regions?
05:55:29 <pjpe> i don't see it in the 2cc nightly
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07:02:25 <planetmaker> moin
07:02:47 <planetmaker> pjpe: nightlies of 2ccTS don't have that parameter currently
07:02:56 <planetmaker> iirc that is
07:02:58 <pjpe> but the beta does?
07:03:59 <planetmaker> iirc only the 1.x versions
07:06:31 <V453000> I dont think even that does
07:06:56 <KittenKoder> I haven't seen it.
07:06:58 <pjpe> the very old homepage for it mentions those parameters
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07:12:03 <planetmaker> version 1.x is also not 2.x
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08:24:21 <Terkhen> good morning
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11:22:42 <Coke> Hi guys. Is it possible to remove just one track or perhaps even one tile in a station without destroying the whole thing?
11:24:59 <Noldo> use the bulldozer thingie
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13:10:24 <Coke> Noldo: it destoys the entire station? Not the bomb?
13:11:38 <MNIM> Coke: select build station, then select the buldozer
13:12:15 <planetmaker> dynamite != bulldozer
13:12:50 <MNIM> silly PM. not everybody knows that != = =/=
13:13:51 <planetmaker> yeah... and handwritten the ! above the = even means by definition
13:14:45 <michi_cc> MNIM: Not everybody knows that =/= = ≠ :p
13:14:53 <MNIM> lol
13:15:14 <MNIM> that's about the best representation i can give without having to start up character map
13:15:18 <MNIM> hmmmh
13:15:19 <MNIM> or wait
13:15:28 * MNIM opens the autoreplace settings
13:15:30 <MNIM> duhh
13:16:16 <MNIM> I\'m
13:16:20 <MNIM> hmmmh. odd
13:16:27 <MNIM> that was supposed to be a null.
13:17:10 <planetmaker> well... the ≠ is for me alt+0
13:18:04 <planetmaker> and it was of course the last key I tested :-P
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13:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Coke: select the build station tool, and press the "R" key
13:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (works with most other tools as well)
13:37:40 <peter1138> alt-0 is window 0 :p
13:38:08 <peter1138> ≃
13:38:13 <peter1138> ⁼
13:38:14 <peter1138> hm
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13:39:33 <WMP> hello
13:39:52 <Terkhen> hi WMP
13:41:15 <WMP> i have ask about gameplay ;) I
13:41:21 <WMP> i have:
13:41:23 <WMP> :)
13:41:27 <WMP> and this is good?
13:41:49 <WMP> train on bottom is stopped
13:41:59 <glx> it's a jpg, it can't be good :)
13:42:09 <WMP> :)
13:42:35 <Alberth> having cross-overs at every block seems a bit overkill
13:43:02 <WMP> this is trail to test
13:43:04 <WMP> rail*
13:45:14 <WMP> i shoud add other signals?
13:45:17 <Alberth> I normally only have such connections at every depot stop
13:45:42 <Alberth> if you want to have cross-overs, path signals seem fine
13:45:48 <Alberth> did you run tests?
13:46:00 <WMP> Alberth: without normal signals?
13:46:10 <WMP> yes ;)
13:46:36 <Alberth> did it work? if so, I'd say it is good :)
13:46:48 <Alberth> or did you want to know something specific?
13:47:46 <WMP> and without normal signals train can drive if block between path signal is empty
13:49:57 <Alberth> 'without normal signals', does that mean no signals at all?
13:50:05 <WMP> yes
13:50:17 <WMP> i have this on my screenshot
13:50:43 <Alberth> if you don't have any signals, you can have one train
13:50:58 <Alberth> and one train only
13:51:41 <Alberth> a block that gets entered through path signals can have several trains in the same block
13:53:59 <WMP> hmmm, look:
13:54:42 <Alberth> what should I see?
13:54:51 <WMP> 8 - wait for free road
13:54:57 <WMP> 3 and 28: is stopped
13:55:13 <Alberth> that seems right
13:55:20 <WMP> " gets entered through path signals can have several trains in the same block"
13:55:56 <WMP> maybe i wrong understand
13:56:13 <Alberth> a train reserves a path from the point where it is to the next signal. On that path no other train must be present
13:56:48 <WMP> ok
13:56:50 <Alberth> 8 cannot reserve a path to a next signal without needing a piece of rail where another train is
13:56:54 <Alberth> thus it waits
13:57:10 <WMP> so all is good?
13:57:13 <Alberth> oh, sorry it is even stronger
13:57:41 <Alberth> each train reserves a path in the block, and those paths may not have shared tracks
13:58:31 <WMP> yes
13:59:10 <Alberth> thus if a block has one exit, you can have only one train in a block, even with path signals
13:59:25 <Alberth> one train in *that* block
13:59:46 <WMP> maybe i shoud add other signals to make fluent move?
14:00:18 <Alberth> if you have stopped trains it will never move fluently :)
14:00:43 <WMP> yes, but look on this:
14:01:43 <WMP>
14:02:18 <WMP> why 3 cant drive?
14:02:26 <WMP> this isn;t fluently :(
14:05:04 <Alberth> probably depends on its order, but I don't really know the details of that
14:05:46 <Alberth> trains will drive after each other, at about 1 block distance, in my experience
14:06:24 <Alberth> although with that many cross-overs, the path-finder will try to be smart and constantly move trains between both tracks
14:06:35 <Alberth> better have less cross-over opportunities
14:06:55 <WMP> Alberth: coult you give me tutorial with cross-over?
14:07:27 <Alberth> not sure whether it exists
14:07:39 <WMP> :(
14:07:40 <Alberth> many people play without break down
14:08:03 <Alberth> I play with break down, and have cross overs every screen or less
14:08:41 <Alberth> normally also with a depot, but then you have trains entering/exiting a depot at the main line, which you may not like
14:11:53 <Alberth> <-- bottom 2 tracks go from left -> right
14:12:23 <Alberth> I just measured, the next such cross-over is 60 tiles further
14:12:48 <Alberth> and I have signals every 6 or 8 or so tiles
14:14:18 <WMP> hmmm
14:14:20 <WMP>
14:14:26 <WMP> why 8 wait?
14:14:55 <WMP> ok
14:15:03 <WMP> i know ;)
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14:16:08 <WMP> - this is my depo
14:17:48 <Alberth> <-- 3 is moving from left to right, it cannot pass the signals, so it goes back
14:18:04 <Alberth> thus its reserved path uses both tracks
14:18:40 <Alberth> thus train 8 cannot reserve a path without using track pieces reserved by train 3
14:18:45 <Alberth> thus it waits :)
14:19:43 <WMP> but now:
14:19:45 <WMP> ?
14:21:31 <Alberth> ieky depots you have :) I have seen people do
14:22:53 <WMP> "ieky"?
14:23:04 <Alberth> in your last screen shot, the path-finder may consider the detour around the stopped train too long
14:23:28 * Alberth ponders a good translation for 'ieky'
14:24:08 <Alberth> ieky means mostly 'weird and wonderful' :)
14:24:41 <Alberth> (at least that's what I meant to say :) )
14:25:03 <WMP> ughhh... so how to make this cross-over good? In train stoped all other trains drive on opposite rail
14:26:21 <Alberth> if you want to have two tracks, both should lead to the same destination
14:26:53 <WMP> i want to have 10 tracks
14:27:05 <WMP> and this is highway
14:27:11 <WMP> highway/bus ;)
14:27:12 <Alberth> 10!!!?????
14:27:14 <planetmaker> 10? one per train or what?
14:27:40 <WMP> oughh
14:27:41 <WMP> sorry ;)
14:27:43 <Alberth> 2 is more than sufficient for about 99.9% of the cases
14:27:45 * planetmaker only remembers very rare occasions where more than 6 were needed
14:27:49 <WMP> 10 train
14:28:08 <WMP> and 4 tracks
14:28:16 <WMP> 2 in >
14:28:18 <WMP> and 2 in <
14:28:24 <Alberth> how long
14:28:25 <Alberth> ?
14:29:00 <WMP>
14:29:02 <WMP> :)
14:29:10 <WMP> on
14:29:13 <WMP> sorry:
14:30:16 <Alberth> 10 trains is not much, you probably don't need 4 tracks
14:30:31 <WMP> but i want ;)
14:31:25 <Alberth> that's a good enough reason :)
14:31:32 <WMP> :)
14:32:13 <WMP> and i have bug: whan i divert train on big speed, train in this same point have speed 0 ;)
14:32:20 <WMP> or is stopped
14:32:38 <WMP> from 200 to 0 in this same point? wow!
14:33:05 <Alberth> the program has very good brakes ;)
14:33:20 <WMP> very, very good ;)
14:34:33 <WMP> moscow have 90k poopulation
14:34:53 <WMP> why i have on my terminal only 60 peoples?
14:35:50 <Alberth> provide better service
14:36:14 <Alberth> always have a train loading
14:36:20 <WMP> i'm only in moscow
14:37:07 <Alberth> make a moscow <-> moscow connection :)
14:37:24 <Alberth> as long as you use two stations, it will work
14:37:46 <WMP> to other station in moscow?
14:45:02 <Alberth> sure, moscow-north and moscow-south :)
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14:45:51 <Alberth> I often put 3 or more stations around a city and have lots of trains driving around in circles
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16:43:02 <CiprianI> I want to install some newGRFs but I don't know how manually to them, since there is no OPEN TTD/data in My Documents, but there is "OpenTTD\content_download\data" full with ".tar" newGRFs and not .grf
16:43:06 <CiprianI> :s
16:43:39 <CiprianI> Might you help me, please?
16:46:52 <CiprianI> ...
16:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause> do not put things in content_download
16:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> this is the place where ingame downloads are stored, so your changes may be overwritten
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16:47:40 <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD\data must be the directory, if it does not exist, create it
16:50:38 <CiprianI> Thanks
16:51:58 <planetmaker> as the readme verbosely talks about ;-)
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17:28:17 <Coke> Eddi|zuHause & MNIM & planetmaker : thanks! :)
17:28:56 <Coke> If I have a newerf (swedish trains) and someone wants to play with on LAN, they too have to install that grf manually, right?
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17:30:24 <Coke> Also, is it considered "cheating" to loan a lot of money for a quicker start? I don't know why, but I'm reluctant to loan money even in a game. Hehe.
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17:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they have to, and no, it's not
17:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> if the server owner wants to, he can set the difficulty level so you can't loan anymore money
17:33:51 <Coke> Ok. Im trying the swedish town names now, it's hilarious. Looks like towns that could really exist.
17:34:07 <Coke> Are we really that predictable when it comes to town names? :)
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17:37:20 <Wolf01> oddink
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17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22733 /trunk/src/lang/ (romanian.txt unfinished/basque.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: basque - 78 changes by Thadah
17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 55 changes by Peymanpn
17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by tonny
17:56:23 <Alberth> evenink Wolf01
17:57:29 <Alberth> Coke: depends on the town name grf, some are simply lists of existing cities, others are made up
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20:00:11 * andythenorth wonders
20:00:29 <andythenorth> the 'change year' cheat calls a function?
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20:06:46 <Hirundo> yes, it calls ClickChangeDateCheat indirectly
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20:11:17 <andythenorth> hmm
20:11:24 <andythenorth> could a patch call that once per year?
20:14:25 <Hirundo> In principle yes, the best way would be to move the 'reset stuff when the year magically changes' to a common function an call that both from your patch and from the date cheat function
20:15:04 * andythenorth ponders a dumber approach to daylength issues :P
20:15:08 <andythenorth> pikka gave me the idea
20:16:18 <andythenorth> meanwhile:
20:27:34 <frosch123> the drivers sit on the wrong side
20:28:40 <andythenorth> indeed
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20:50:27 <Wolf01> 'night(ly)
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21:24:23 <Coke> Is depot considered safe stopping point by one way path signal?
21:30:08 <KittenKoder> ???
21:30:24 <KittenKoder> Best not to put any signals between the depots and main track.
21:30:49 <KittenKoder> If I understand your question.
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21:33:30 <Coke> No.
21:33:40 <Coke> I have two station tracks + 1 depot
21:33:55 <Coke> if the station is occupied by two trains I'd like the arriving train to wait in the depot
21:34:19 <KittenKoder> Oh, then yeah.
21:34:35 <Coke> Hm, it says "waiting for free path" in my test
21:34:58 <KittenKoder> That means it's waiting for a track to free up.
21:35:14 <supermop_> coke, yes you can use it like that
21:35:24 <Coke> supermop_: hm. i wonder why my test dint work
21:35:44 <supermop_> do like this:
21:36:01 <KittenKoder> Perhaps your other lights are misplaced or there's a stuck reserve.
21:36:25 <CraKinShOt> I think they'll keep going in and out of the depo
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21:36:47 <supermop_> ====P=v=SSSSSSP
21:37:03 <supermop_> where = is track, P is path signal,
21:37:10 <supermop_> v is where depot is
21:37:16 <supermop_> and s is station
21:37:40 <supermop_> so long as the station is full, all new trains will enter depot
21:38:05 <supermop_> as soon as station is clear, the top train in the depot will leave
21:38:23 <supermop_> but until then it will not block new trains from entering the depot
21:40:01 <Coke> it doesnt do that for me
21:40:38 <supermop_> hm
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21:42:17 <Coke> I have the two tracks do a zig zag just before the station so either can be picked
21:42:33 <Coke> hang on
21:46:08 <Coke> nope
21:48:13 <Coke> it only works if the exit signal is in both directions
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21:49:04 <Coke> nope. wont go to the depot
21:49:56 <supermop_> wait are you use path signals or entry/exit signals?
21:51:07 <Coke> a path signal
21:51:32 <Coke> i had a problem in the zigzag area if trains entered from north and south at the same time
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21:51:59 <Coke> and i didnt have the space for longer entry/exit, so I read you could use the depots as escape stop
21:54:03 <Coke> seems the patherfinder cant see the exit
21:57:24 <Coke> this is just weird and its getting late
21:57:47 <Coke> seems like only one of the engines wants to pass through the path signal, the other waits eveven thoug theres a nice path available
21:58:43 <CraKinShOt> sounds like a stuck reservation
22:00:29 <KittenKoder> That's what I would think.
22:00:51 <CraKinShOt> Options -> Interface -> Display Options -> Show Reservation
22:01:16 <CraKinShOt> if you have a lone piece that is greyed out, then its stuck and you need to rebuild it
22:01:25 <Coke> show reserved tracks?
22:01:29 <CraKinShOt> yeah
22:02:01 <CraKinShOt> at least that is my guess
22:02:29 <Coke> what should I see?
22:02:35 <Coke> no grey pieces
22:02:44 <Coke> well, except the metal on the rail
22:02:53 <Coke> wait
22:02:58 <duckblaster> some tracks will be darker
22:03:03 <Coke> exactly
22:03:06 <duckblaster> those are reserved
22:03:09 <Coke> why is that?
22:03:29 <duckblaster> only the train that reserved that track can use it
22:03:35 <duckblaster> untill it is released
22:03:50 <duckblaster> when the train leaves that peice
22:04:06 <duckblaster> track can only be reserved once at a time
22:04:06 <CraKinShOt> If the bug it still present, sometimes they get stuck
22:04:43 <Coke> theres no train on the greyed out piece
22:04:46 <CraKinShOt> if you have grey track somewhere where there is no train then its stuck
22:04:56 <Coke> and the depot still doesnt work
22:05:00 <CraKinShOt> rebuild that piece
22:05:10 <Coke> it still stops when the two station tracks are occupied even tho a depot is available
22:05:30 <CraKinShOt> they won't go for the depo by default
22:05:37 <CraKinShOt> they'll wait for the station to free up
22:05:47 <KittenKoder> The escape depot I have never gotten to work with PBS.
22:06:37 <Coke> right, so I was right from the start, using them as a safe stop point after a path signal just doesnt work
22:06:52 <CraKinShOt> nope
22:06:57 <Coke> hmmmm.
22:07:14 <Coke> so how do you guys solve it? big parking lot?
22:07:21 <CraKinShOt> just have double tracks and a long entry stretch. the trains will build up on there and allow trains to exit the station
22:08:25 <CraKinShOt> bar that set up a loader to supply that station with more product, so your trains don't wait around
22:09:16 <Coke> I usually have a 7x7 on busy spots
22:09:39 <Coke> the problem are the long congestions just before if I have an incoming double track
22:09:58 <KittenKoder> I use rail "yards", basically parking lots.
22:10:09 <Coke> there is a way I could force them to depot i think
22:11:01 <KittenKoder> But lately I've been on a minimalist streak, working an entire game with about 50 trains total.
22:11:07 <CraKinShOt> if space is an issue just have another station further out and a loop of trains that supply the bigger one
22:11:09 <michi_cc> Coke: A depot is a safe stopping point, but as it is not the actual destination of the train in question, reversing through a depot will be heavily penalised in the pathfinder over the direct route (yapf.rail_depot_reverse_penalty controls that)
22:12:04 <KittenKoder> Also, drive-through stations, or ROROs, tend to work best in high traffic spots.
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22:12:55 <jackk> Jeesus, this is busy. Didn't know you guys had an IRC, just logged off another one I use.
22:13:07 <KittenKoder> Well, hi.
22:13:31 <pjpe> coke how about you take a picture of your station thing
22:13:56 <jackk> I have just 1 issue I wanted to ask - Is it usual to have to download an AI for my game after I've downloaded the whole game? Because I never get any AI businesses in my games?
22:14:19 <pjpe> uh yeah
22:14:27 <pjpe> you get ai through the newgrf online content thing
22:14:40 <jackk> Ahh okay, I'll try negotiate my way through that now.
22:15:15 <KittenKoder> I liked the original AI ... I miss that one.
22:15:19 <Coke> michi_cc: what do you mean penalized?
22:15:28 <pjpe> aren't there a few original ai on the service
22:15:30 <pjpe> pretty sure there are
22:15:30 <jackk> They all seem to be town names etc. Is there AI somewhere in there amongst the huge list?
22:15:34 <pjpe> coke the way the pathfinder works
22:15:46 <pjpe> is how a* and basically all path finding/graph traversal algorithms work
22:15:51 <pjpe> it takes a bunch of possibilities
22:15:56 <pjpe> sees which one 'costs' more to go through
22:15:59 <pjpe> so if you have two tracks
22:16:06 <pjpe> one which goes through a station and one which doesn't
22:16:15 <KittenKoder> pjpe, I've tried a bunch but usually all they do is set up bus stations and 100 buses for every 2 stations.
22:16:15 <pjpe> the station will cost more and the pathfinder will not want to choose it
22:16:18 <pjpe> unless it has to
22:16:24 <Coke> So the path signal will allow the train to pass if I have the depot in the orders list?
22:16:27 <pjpe> yeah sounds about right for the original ai
22:16:47 <KittenKoder> The original one didn't do that when I played ....
22:17:08 <KittenKoder> But that was TTD.
22:17:57 <Coke> time to catch some Z's. have a good night fellas
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22:18:42 <jackk> Am I using the in-game newgrf content scanner to find new AI? Because all i'm seeing is town names etc.
22:19:14 <KittenKoder> Click Online Content on the main menu, not the NewGRF one.
22:19:54 <jackk> Ahh nice one. Any suggestions for relatively beginner players?
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22:22:06 <KittenKoder> I didn't like any of them.
22:22:17 <pjpe> admiralai is the one that's recommended
22:22:19 <pjpe> in my mind
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