IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-08-04
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07:23:52 <planetmaker> moin
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07:57:01 <dihedral> good morning
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09:04:05 <Terkhen> good morning
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11:24:23 <IchGuckLive> Hi all , it rry to find out on the Train engines what is the efficents the Horsepower or the Waight
11:24:35 <IchGuckLive> or the Fastest
11:25:27 <IchGuckLive> there is a Henry25 with 1267HP but only 72T
11:25:58 <Alberth> depends on how you use the engine
11:26:29 <peter1138> weight is unimportant, the balance is in power/speed/maxte
11:26:40 <peter1138> (maxte is related to weight, but you don't have to worry about that)
11:27:13 <IchGuckLive> ok
11:27:18 <planetmaker> and that's why openttd allows sorting of engines in purchase menu by power, by TE, by power / mass etc
11:27:35 <IchGuckLive> so dont load more then the engines weight
11:27:54 <Alberth> down-hill it does not matter :)
11:28:20 <IchGuckLive> Alberth: but the other way
11:28:42 <Alberth> then you need high TE
11:28:43 <planetmaker> IchGuckLive: "don't load more than the engine weighs" sounds not quite reasonable ;-)
11:28:53 <planetmaker> a truck also doesn't weigh as much as it carries ;-)
11:29:04 <planetmaker> nor a train engine as much as the whole train it pulls
11:29:25 <Alberth> in RL, an engine can pull 35 times its own weight :)
11:29:26 <dihedral>
11:29:28 <dihedral> ^^
11:30:46 <Alberth> that was a matter of time :)
11:30:54 <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: thanks but is there a list of train load carrige and speed level upwards
11:31:47 <Alberth> IchGuckLive: no, it would be helpful to make one probably, for different types of terrain, and different settings
11:32:40 <Alberth> in the advanced settings you can change various things about acceleration, wagon weight, and terrain
11:32:56 <IchGuckLive> my problem is i got to trevel 65Tiles and the slow train does block the line for the other so 4Steel wagon are equal to 5 wood
11:33:10 <IchGuckLive> on 2 tiles upward
11:33:13 <Alberth> add a second engine
11:33:25 <IchGuckLive> is this posible ?
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11:33:31 <IchGuckLive> i never died this
11:33:41 <Alberth> no, I only suggest impossible things :p
11:33:48 <planetmaker> ^^ :-P
11:33:48 <Alberth> just kidding :)
11:34:02 <IchGuckLive> thanks
11:34:39 <Alberth> but nonetheless, a table at the wiki would be useful imho
11:35:18 <IchGuckLive> B) second enginge Whow
11:36:03 <Alberth> you do get more running costs though
11:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> 1t of steel is heavier than 1t of wood... err... wait :p
11:37:46 <Alberth> yeah, anti-gravity particles have more trouble with the tougher steel
11:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, the lower density makes the object wider, and the outer (from earth's core) sections have marginally lower gravity and higher centrifugal force, so less weight
11:42:38 <peter1138> very marginally
11:42:59 <Alberth> depending on the rotation speed :)
11:44:19 <IchGuckLive> no the other way Woodwagol loadet 51 tonns steel is only 43 total
11:45:02 <IchGuckLive> BY the way Thanks all here for the good infos B) :D @}-<--
11:45:31 <Alberth> have fun
11:46:08 <planetmaker> @calc 500*6.7*10**(-11) * (1/6371001.0**2 - 1/6371001.2**2)
11:46:08 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0
11:46:26 <IchGuckLive> is there a Tutorial how to ged over the problem that the busstations got 1Mio people and the Airport only 100
11:46:27 <planetmaker> seems negligible ;-)
11:46:40 <duckblaster1> planetmaker: what is that calculation?
11:46:52 <duckblaster1> physics formula i mean
11:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: ever heard of numeric stability?
11:47:21 <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, X * 0 usually is
11:47:33 <Eddi|zuHause> for a~b, (a+b)*(a-b) is way more stable than (a^2-b^2)
11:47:45 <Alberth> IchGuckLive: perhaps the GameMechanics wiki page?
11:48:09 <Alberth> (if you are looking for an explanation why that happens)
11:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 500*6.7*10**(-11) * (1/6371001.0 - 1/6371001.2) * (1/6371001.0 + 1/6371001.2)
11:48:10 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0
11:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ähh... "vorführeffekt" :p
11:48:37 <duckblaster1> to how many decimal places?
11:49:05 <planetmaker> hehe @ Eddi|zuHause :-)
11:49:19 <planetmaker> but you're right, of course
11:49:25 <duckblaster1> who's bot?
11:49:41 <duckblaster1> what precision are numbers too?
11:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> duckblaster1: 6371001 is obviously the earth's diameter in m
11:50:38 <duckblaster1> right, what are the other values?
11:50:44 <duckblaster1> just curious
11:51:13 <planetmaker> 6*10**(-11) is the gravitational constant.
11:51:20 <planetmaker> 500kg is an arbitrary weight
11:51:24 <duckblaster1> thanks
11:51:27 <planetmaker> which is offset by those 20cm difference
11:52:06 <IchGuckLive> By THE new Game ias pretti more effective 1.1.2.RC1 i got over 1 mio in 3Years and now gol all Filled in 7Years without Cheets
11:52:12 <duckblaster1> i am studying physics, but not at a very high level yet
11:52:37 <Hirundo> I'd guess that the effect of 20cm height difference is negligible, compared to the forces caused by the sun and moon..
11:53:02 <Alberth> IchGuckLive: you get better at the game :)
11:53:02 <Eddi|zuHause> duckblaster1: m*G/r^2 is rather 9th grade mechanics...
11:53:26 <duckblaster1> i just didn't recognize it with the 6*10**(-11)
11:53:27 <IchGuckLive> Alberth: B)
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11:54:25 <planetmaker> Hirundo: the relative attraction? I doubt it
11:55:01 <planetmaker> as F ~ 1/r**2 the differential attraction to two masses at the Earth's surface is larger due to the Earth than due to the moon for sure, but also due to the sun
11:55:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: the forces of sun and moon vary way less on this distance
11:55:35 <Hirundo> no, not the relative force
11:55:46 <planetmaker> that's what tides are ;-)
11:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> they are there, but the effects of 20cm distance are even more negligible :p
11:56:10 <planetmaker> the tidal force goes actually (on first order) by r**(-3)
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11:58:37 <planetmaker> sun's tidal force for 1m offset: 4*10**(-44) N/kg
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11:59:02 <Hirundo> reading back the discussion, I'd suggest to look at archimedes law when comparing 1t of wood vs 1t of steel
11:59:58 <planetmaker> :-) and we were discussing the difference wrt the height difference of their centre of mass due to their different densities
12:00:06 <planetmaker> and there archimedes doesn't play a role
12:00:12 <planetmaker> it's not about floating in water
12:00:20 <Hirundo> do you live in a vacuum ?
12:00:27 <Alberth> but isn't air density not already taken into account by the '1t' ?
12:00:29 <Hirundo> nor do I, thankfully :)
12:00:37 <planetmaker> :-)
12:00:49 <planetmaker> Alberth: the assumption was 1t of wood / steel loaded on a train
12:00:52 <Terkhen> interesting conversation :D
12:00:58 <planetmaker> thus the 1t of wood will be higher
12:01:08 <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, they are both 'floating' in air :p
12:01:10 <planetmaker> thus its centre of mass will be higher
12:01:24 <planetmaker> thus it's slightly less attracted by Earth on average
12:01:51 <planetmaker> btw. differencial force for Earth: 5*10**(-31) N/kg for 1m offset
12:01:54 <Hirundo> If I weigh 1000kg in vacuum, my scale will show about 999kg in normal atmosphere
12:02:07 <planetmaker> and?
12:02:52 <Alberth> planetmaker: so about 5*10**(-28)N for a tonne :)
12:03:13 <duckblaster1> what about density?
12:03:30 <planetmaker> hm, I missed some important factor: the celestial body's mass :-D
12:03:39 <Alberth> Terkhen: yeah, highly on topic :p
12:03:40 <Hirundo> Air density varies easily by 10-20%, so you'd get a 0.1-0.2 kg inaccuracy there
12:03:48 <Terkhen> :)
12:03:59 <duckblaster1> i think we will get a result of about 1 gram lighter for wood
12:04:00 <Alberth> Hirundo: let's do best case
12:04:06 <Hirundo> For steel the effect is about 1/8th, compared to wood
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12:04:14 <planetmaker> Hirundo: the air density above adjacent wagons is equal as is the air column above them
12:04:45 <planetmaker> except by maybe delta_h * 1.3kg/m**3
12:05:19 <Hirundo> Even when ignoring the weight, imagine moving both wood and steel from a low-density to a high-density place
12:05:44 <Hirundo> both wood and steel will seem to "lose" weight, the wood about 8x more though (on a per-weight basis)
12:05:48 <planetmaker> Hirundo: we're looking at adjacent wagons. Same atmosphere, all other things the same
12:05:52 <planetmaker> Just a different material loaded
12:06:44 <Hirundo> So if you weigh 1t of each in your workshop, it might not actually (appear to) be 1t any more when loaded on the wagon
12:07:18 <planetmaker> good, of course. But where's the argument?
12:08:01 <planetmaker> We're comparing actually a single entity, once placed at height h and the other time placed at height h+deltah
12:08:22 <planetmaker> and this deltah gives a rise to a different measured weight. Even if the mass stays constant
12:08:31 <planetmaker> And that's the whole exercise we do: weight != mass ;-)
12:09:03 <Hirundo> of course
12:09:35 <Hirundo> I just wanted to point out, that the effect of air density on measured weight is much higher than the effect of gravitation
12:09:57 <planetmaker> uhm... That's not true
12:10:10 <planetmaker> generally at least ;-)
12:10:49 <planetmaker> just place it in a hermetically sealed room, even with air, and you have the air column from above removed from the weight
12:10:56 <planetmaker> air then just addes to noisy measurements
12:11:18 <planetmaker> "just" of course :-P
12:13:55 <Hirundo> The main differences in density are temporal, not spacial
12:14:38 <Hirundo> I'd guess differential gravity is the most important issue when examining two objects at the same time, while air density is the issue when examining the same object at different times
12:16:47 <Hirundo> Ah well, let's get back to work :)
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12:19:37 <planetmaker> just to summarize: 1m offset on Earth in height, gives 3mN/kg difference for Earth's attraction, 2*10**(-13)N/kg for Moon's attraction and 8*10**(-14)N/kg for the sun's attraction under vacuum conditions :-P
12:22:31 <planetmaker> hm... 3µN/kg for Earth. With a bouyancy of 4µN/ m**2 of cross section
12:22:53 <peter1138> physics \o/
12:24:43 <Hirundo> what's the buoyancy thing?
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12:25:19 <Noldo_> it's airpressure's effect
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12:37:41 <planetmaker> Hirundo: the air pressure effect. If you're lighter than air... your attraction is overcome by the heavier air wanting to replace you. The hot air balloon ;-)
12:38:10 <planetmaker> the value I gave assumes constant air pressure 1013mbar, 1.3kg/m**3
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12:41:47 <peter1138> :)
12:47:33 <Hirundo> I figured, net force exerted by the air on you is (in first order) equal to dP/dh * surface area * height = dP/dh * V
12:48:32 <Hirundo> By the law of bernoulli, dP/dh = air density * g, so Archimedes is right too
12:48:41 <Alberth> phew :)
12:48:46 <Hirundo> :P indeed
12:50:51 <Noldo_> it's not all in the same direction though
12:53:09 <Hirundo> All the non-vertical forces (ie. all except those on top of my head and on my feet) cancel eachother
12:54:39 <Noldo_> what do you mean by surface area?
12:55:18 <Hirundo> Anyways, this effect changes with height as d2P/dh2 * V, assuming volume stays constant
12:56:28 <Hirundo> Noldo_: Take yourself as a cylinder, then surface area is the circular area on top, not the entire surface
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12:58:16 <Sacro> Anyone here know perl?
12:58:54 <Noldo_> well...
12:58:59 <__ln__> i've heard of it
12:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i've heard of a friend who heard of it
13:00:21 <peter1138> harbour?
13:00:43 <Noldo_> railway
13:02:53 <Noldo_> There is a finnish literature classic published in 1884 were people travel somewhere to travel on a train
13:03:40 <Hirundo> So if I move an object of 1m3 1m upwards, it becomes around 1.15 mN "heavier" - not an awful lot, but it adds up when flying a hot air balloon
13:04:14 <peter1138> Hirundo, are you sure it becomes heavier?
13:05:00 <Hirundo> Ignoring gravity, yes, as the weight of removed air is reduced
13:05:57 <planetmaker> Hirundo: buoyancy only works with gravity
13:06:04 <Hirundo> Whether gravitational or density effects dominate depends on the density of the object itself
13:09:56 <planetmaker> hm, deprecating sprite groups for railtypes is nice :-)
13:10:23 <planetmaker> though... maybe we should keep it, but always warn
13:10:30 <planetmaker> (as now)
13:10:42 <planetmaker> and... speaking of NML ^
13:12:00 <Hirundo> Time between deprecating and removing may vary :)
13:12:11 <planetmaker> :-P
13:12:30 <Hirundo> I think I'll fix swedishrails one day and then include some of its code in the examples
13:12:38 <planetmaker> Well, I'm not sure whether we should remove it: the sequence switch -> group -> set is quite usual
13:12:44 <planetmaker> thus being able to use it is nice
13:13:12 <planetmaker> I just thought of doing that ;-)
13:13:19 <planetmaker> at least fixing it
13:13:37 <planetmaker> though... I'm noticed only when compiling the ce-tracks
13:14:07 <planetmaker> thus... they'll have up-to-date code very soonish
13:17:27 <Hirundo> I looked at swedishrails yesterday, those spritegroups made for lots of boilerplate
13:18:24 <planetmaker> I assume so :-)
13:18:30 <planetmaker> it has lots of those groups
13:18:30 <Hirundo> If I wanted to code mindless boilerplate, I would've stuck to NFO
13:18:49 <planetmaker> hehe
13:19:27 <planetmaker> yes, it's mostly pointless code, that's totally correct. And it's a wonderful change to get rid of it
13:19:28 <Hirundo> (though arguably, most of the mindless stuff (sprite lengths) are done by renum already)
13:20:08 <planetmaker> hm... if the rail toolbar icon is disabled I can still open it with shortcut key...
13:28:48 <dihedral> @seen Dasprid
13:28:48 <DorpsGek> dihedral: I have not seen Dasprid.
13:28:54 <dihedral> @seen Mark
13:28:54 <DorpsGek> dihedral: I have not seen Mark.
13:28:58 <dihedral> uh?
13:29:07 <Markk> :<
13:29:27 <dihedral> i mean the other one :-P
13:29:32 <Markk> :)
13:29:43 <Markk> Still, i get hilighted.
13:29:43 <Markk> :(
13:29:45 <dihedral> unless you used to run around wearing only one 'k' instead of two :-P
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13:29:59 <Mark> aw
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13:39:51 <dihedral> :-P
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14:04:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22714 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix: If there's no point in opening the rail toolbar, don't open it for people who use hotkeys either rather than only for those using GUI elements
14:05:48 <planetmaker> so... where were I? writing a railtype newgrf...
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14:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> [Samstag, 30. Juli 2011] [23:05:29] <Eddi|zuHause> hm, proposal: railtype property: "equivalent labels".
14:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> [Samstag, 30. Juli 2011] [23:06:34] <Eddi|zuHause> like: if i define a railtype "Track Class B, slow, electrified" with label "DBbe", i might want to define the labels "DBNE" and "ELRL" as 'equivalent', as in "is this label defined
14:15:40 <Eddi|zuHause> " checks will return true
14:17:04 <peter1138>
14:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> how many security agency's alerts have i triggered by clicking on this?
14:25:23 <Alberth> not as many as /me looking for a nice picture of a nuclear waste transport wagon :p
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14:30:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: what would be the advantage of equivalent labels and where are they useful?
14:30:17 <planetmaker> or rather: where / how would they be defined?
14:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: similar to the compatible and powered railtypes list
14:30:56 <planetmaker> what's wrong with defining it compatible?
14:31:20 <planetmaker> ok, maybe I should start up front: what problem does it solve?
14:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: an "is this defined" check will fail if it is only marked as compatible/powered
14:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm running out of arguments with MB..
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14:31:57 <planetmaker> about the RT labels?
14:32:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:32:07 <planetmaker> *sigh*
14:32:52 <planetmaker> but which newgrf should define equivalency?
14:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the track grf
14:33:20 <planetmaker> hm, so a new property?
14:33:22 <planetmaker> for tracks?
14:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:33:44 <planetmaker> alternative labels (for vehicles not wanting to use mine?)
14:33:46 <planetmaker> hm...
14:34:28 <planetmaker> how would we nicely implement it... prop <num_labels_to_follow> label1 label2 ...
14:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: also it makes the vehicle grf easier, if the "basic set 1" (trackset) says "DBan" definition is skipped, but "DBbn" is defined as equivalent to "DBan"
14:35:32 <planetmaker> that is true
14:36:00 <planetmaker> but what happens if I have two railtype newgrfs: one says X=Y and defines Y. The other defines X
14:36:04 <Alberth> we need more overrides, 1 is not enough
14:36:12 <planetmaker> hm?
14:36:24 <planetmaker> it's not an override really
14:36:52 <planetmaker> hm... fallback rather ;-)
14:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the syntax should be the same as compatible/powered railtype list properties
14:37:00 <planetmaker> fallback for...
14:37:11 <planetmaker> might be better than equivalent
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14:37:39 <planetmaker> then it's also clear that it never must take precedence when the label is defined
14:37:40 <Eddi|zuHause> fallback is the wrong word, i think
14:37:57 <planetmaker> is it?
14:38:16 <Eddi|zuHause> easy to misinterpret
14:38:22 <planetmaker> equivalent, too
14:38:29 <planetmaker> and it's problematic in the case I just outlined
14:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "wait, is X fallback for Y or Y fallback for X?"
14:39:15 <planetmaker> that property defines which RT it can replace
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14:40:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: anything which would be done, would be limiting the newgrf author's freedom, though, to have the grf played as it's intended
14:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
14:41:15 <planetmaker> making it that easy is cutting into the freedom! </irony>
14:43:40 <planetmaker> ok, what happens now, if we have a vehicle or RT X and no such RT exists?
14:43:47 <planetmaker> The vehicle will not become available, right?
14:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> (i believe)
14:44:08 <planetmaker> so do I
14:44:52 <planetmaker> and a RT will not become available, if no vehicle asks for it (and it is not introduced by another RT's property)
14:44:59 <planetmaker> or via its introduction date
14:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> of the 4 combinations: 1) MB's trainset + MB's trackset, 2) our trainset+MB's trackset, 3) our trainset+our trackset, 4) MB's trainset with our trackset, the 4th option is the problematc one, because it cannot be solved with a railtype translation table
14:45:56 <planetmaker> yes
14:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> my proposal would make this possible
14:46:25 <planetmaker> So... I do agree, it makes sense to allow a railtype define labels for which it can act as fallback
14:46:36 <planetmaker> (I still think it's a fallback)
14:46:52 <planetmaker> as the original type the vehicle wants isn't there
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15:05:34 <Hirundo> So a railtype can say "If vehicle X requires railtype Y, but Y is not available, then vehicle X may run on me", with Y being in the fallback railtype list?
15:07:31 <planetmaker> that's the idea as I understood it
15:08:45 <Hirundo> seems sensible
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15:34:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but also action 6/7/9/D checks "is railtype Y defined" checks should return true
15:35:21 <planetmaker> hm...
15:38:10 <Adambean> those of you that are uk residents AND formula 1 fans:
15:38:26 <Eddi|zuHause> what if i am neither?
15:38:45 <Adambean> dont even read the link
15:38:47 <Adambean> let alone click it
15:38:55 <Adambean> if you look at it your monitor will implode
15:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... someone remember: 4=>left_1 3=>left_2, 2=>right_1, 1=>right_2
15:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's even wrong...
15:58:45 <Eddi|zuHause> must be: 4=>right_1 3=>right_2, 2=>left_1, 1=>left_2
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16:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... nml doesn't support unary + operator?
16:22:00 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yes it does, it is written as ' ' (a space)
16:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but that limits me as a code-artist :p
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16:56:17 <Hirundo> Implementation of unary operators is messy enough in NML without introducing another one
16:59:13 <frosch123> as messy as the * operator of c?
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17:05:33 <Hirundo> Some unary operators have their own class, others are implemented as an equivalent binary operation(-x => 0 - x)
17:09:01 <Hirundo> Doing "+x" => "x" is trivial, but what if the operation is bogus (e.g. x is a string)?
17:13:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22715 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix: If there's also no point in opening the air toolbar via custom-defined global hotkeys, if there are no aircraft available
17:22:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22716 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix: Murphy is a bitch
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17:29:50 <IchGuckLive> Hi all i try to find a Docu on Drive to on load equals 40%
17:30:50 <IchGuckLive> in witch line up do i have to make the table to get the Heli to wait till it has 20people
17:32:26 <Wolf01> hello
17:32:26 <IchGuckLive> Eddi|zuHause: ?
17:32:57 <IchGuckLive> Wolf01: B)
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17:38:34 <IchGuckLive> can not find any answer to this on the wikipedia
17:38:55 <Wolf01> bah, #svn on freenode seem to be really useless
17:39:22 <Wolf01> or I'm the first one with this weird problem
17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22717 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
17:45:42 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 2 changes by Phreeze
17:46:03 <__ln__> Wolf01: well you haven't exactly waited for an answer for very long yet.
17:46:18 <Wolf01> I asked about 3 hours ago
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17:51:47 <planetmaker> IchGuckLive: you cannot give orders which say "leave if you have xx people"
17:52:05 <planetmaker> you can only time-table orders to wait for xy days or ticks
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18:08:26 <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: there is a entry under goto that marks a jump at given percent of load
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18:08:46 <IchGuckLive> is there a Docu to this point
18:09:34 <IchGuckLive> this woudt be good to get the ships moving at 50% load
18:10:05 <planetmaker> IchGuckLive: there's a difference between "load until x% full" on the one side and "load" or "load for 3 days" on the other side. In the latter case I can use orders like "if 50% full..."
18:10:33 <andythenorth> hellos
18:10:41 * Alberth waves hi
18:10:50 <planetmaker> hellos andythenorth
18:11:43 <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: thats what i m lookink for how this function work
18:12:09 <planetmaker> IchGuckLive: it does NOT relate to loading
18:12:18 <planetmaker> it only relates to checking how much was loaded
18:12:23 <planetmaker> after loading is finished
18:12:34 <IchGuckLive> ah ok
18:12:52 <IchGuckLive> so if only 10% is loaded then go back
18:13:03 <IchGuckLive> and load more
18:13:24 <IchGuckLive> checking this
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18:16:23 <variable> Is there a 'tutorial' for openttd ? I can't seem to find one
18:16:38 <Alberth> the wiki
18:16:50 <variable> Alberth: alright - found it
18:16:51 <Alberth>
18:17:02 * variable was looking for an in-game tutorial - but ok
18:17:39 <Zuu> variable: See TutorialAI
18:17:48 <Alberth>
18:18:10 <Zuu> It's only at draft-state really, but I would be glad to get help/feedback/contributions on that one
18:18:41 * variable looks
18:19:58 <Zuu> I could probably create the chapter about aircrafts relativly soon, but the others are more distant. Still that project is not on the top of my list. It was more a interesting idea that could lead to something.
18:21:12 <variable> Zuu: how do I install the .tar file ?
18:21:19 <variable> * the ai file
18:21:30 <variable> I see "check online content"
18:21:38 <variable> but not "install custom content" or whatever
18:22:37 <variable> Zuu: I see .openttd/content_download/ai/library - should I put the file their ?
18:22:39 <variable> *there
18:22:54 <Zuu> Doesn't online content button work for you in OpenTTD?
18:23:00 <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: did not work trying tomorrow to find out how this works the train did trevel to the destination but not onload and moved back to load till 30% and then got on
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18:23:19 <variable> Zuu: I don't see TutorialAI though in the online content
18:23:31 <Zuu> Which OpenTTD version?
18:24:07 <variable> Latest?
18:24:11 <variable> </joke> OpenTTD 1.1.1
18:24:34 <Alberth> click 'check online content', then type 'tut' in the filter box at the right top
18:24:49 <variable> nothing shows up
18:25:01 <variable> Alright did that :-)
18:25:17 <Zuu> Do you see other items? (without typing anything into the search box)
18:25:20 <Alberth> from the main menu?
18:25:31 <Zuu> Any AIs?
18:25:38 <variable> Zuu: yes. Alberth yes. I see other things (and installed them) but _not_ TutorialAI
18:25:58 <Zuu> Hmm, I get TutorialAI here. Do you also get it Alberth?
18:26:12 <variable> oh wait. I see only NewGRF
18:26:18 <variable> under 'type'
18:26:19 <Alberth> yes, I do
18:26:34 <Zuu> variable: Close all windows, and then click "Check online content" in the main window.
18:26:58 <variable> Zuu: ah ok. I was in the wrong online content menu </bad ui design>
18:26:59 <variable> :-)
18:27:01 * variable sees it
18:27:02 <Zuu> The window that says "OpenTTD 1.1.1" in the top.
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18:27:31 <Zuu> If you click on online content in the NewGRF dialog, it automagically filter on only NewGRFs.
18:27:52 <variable> Zuu: cool, now how do I _use_ your tutorial ?
18:28:01 <Terkhen> good night
18:28:12 <planetmaker> hu, early good night to you, Terkhen
18:28:24 <variable> gnight Terkhen
18:28:33 <Zuu> Open AI Settings
18:28:44 <Zuu> Choose to have one opponent
18:28:59 <variable> Ah, add one opponent and then choose the AI
18:29:00 <Zuu> Select "Random AI" below "human" and then click on select AI.
18:29:01 <variable> got it - thanks!
18:29:12 * variable figured it out - thanks!
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18:29:18 <Zuu> IIRC there are instructions in the online-content description.
18:29:49 <Zuu> good you figured it out.
18:33:01 * Alberth tries the tutorial too
18:33:07 <variable> Zuu: ok - when I run it I'm supposed to see those "signs" right?
18:33:34 <Zuu> That's also in the instructions. Unless you followed the instructions, you have to wait a year.
18:33:42 <Zuu> Hold the Tab-key to progress time quicker
18:33:45 * variable goes back to the instructions
18:34:03 <Zuu> AIs by default start a year after human player.
18:34:23 <Zuu> The signs will appear at the same location as you start (in the middle of the map)
18:34:27 <planetmaker> hm... oberhumer is doing strange commits, Eddi|zuHause
18:35:22 <variable> Zuu: am I in the wrong place - I don't see instructions on the thread linked above
18:36:21 <Alberth> Zuu: lots of newspaper pop-ups
18:36:35 <variable> also is there a way to get the year to be displayed somewhere on the screen?
18:37:01 <Zuu> variable: The year is displayed at the bottom left.
18:37:16 <Zuu> Wait for months to trun to january-ish.
18:38:17 <Zuu> variable: The instructions are in the content download dialog, if you select TutorialAI. Apparently not in the thread however.
18:38:30 <variable> Ah, I see
18:39:26 <planetmaker> and probably using the wrong line endings
18:40:07 <Zuu> Alberth: When fast-forwarding on a big map with all messages on? ;-)
18:40:36 <Alberth> Zuu: I am missing the invitation to move the display to TOWNA
18:40:44 <variable> Zuu: haha very hacky. "to click a button, delete it ;-)"
18:41:34 <Zuu> variable: Unfortutately, that's not much one can do right now about that as AIs can't create GUIs.So it is just a big hack yes :-)
18:41:52 <Alberth> Zuu: 256x256, that is, completely default settings (I am using a new branch where I did not do any configuration)
18:42:27 <Zuu> Okay.
18:42:52 <variable> Zuu: do you poll to see when the button is 'clicked' or is there a notification
18:42:52 <Alberth> stuff like end-of-year finances :)
18:43:41 <Zuu> Alberth: The basics chapter could grow into infinity about turing off news, end-of-year finanses and other disturbances.
18:44:33 <Zuu> But your comments are valid, it's far form perfect and there is large room for improvements to a good user experience :-)
18:44:34 <Alberth> indeed, mainly just mentioning things so you know about it
18:44:49 <Alberth> you could make a save game
18:45:14 <Zuu> But isn't news a gui setting?
18:46:04 <Alberth> oh, that could be the case :(
18:46:08 <Zuu> Otherwise a scenario could be used, but as a scenario can't depend on an AI in bananas, the user instructions become even longer to get started.
18:47:57 <Alberth> ah, now I understand why you need the sign list :p
18:48:46 <Alberth> perhaps mention at which town you start building?
18:51:15 <Alberth> do you check whether I started the bus?
18:53:01 <Alberth> and perhaps at the end mention things the user can do now (eg extend the bus service)?
18:56:27 <Alberth> add a 2nd bus would be another option
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19:00:25 <Alberth> lol, I am losing money :)
19:01:16 <andythenorth> who isn't losing money :P
19:01:20 <andythenorth> I lost all my recent games
19:02:51 * variable is losing money
19:02:57 <variable> but.. real life money :-)
19:03:03 <variable> </bad joke>
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19:23:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22718 /extra/catcodec/ (. Makefile changelog.txt [catcodec] -Codechange: make Makefile support a Makefile.local (blathijs)
19:25:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the file should rather go in docs/?
19:27:35 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I meant mostly the complete replace of the license file (what is changed? - it doesn't seem intended) and a HUGE change in many files with a description like "merge - I have no rebase"
19:30:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: license file looks like line endings
19:31:24 <planetmaker> yes, I know
19:31:35 <planetmaker> It should remain dos formatted though
19:31:52 <planetmaker> and... should every single of the companies have a callbacks_dummy_16.pnml ?
19:31:54 <planetmaker> identical?
19:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> err, yes, that was my doing
19:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's just the merge commit
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19:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. a conglomerate of some previous commits
19:33:15 <Eddi|zuHause> to merge his local changes with the global ones
19:33:58 <planetmaker> hm, right. I guess all the merge is a conglomerate of previous ones... right
19:34:09 <planetmaker> I guess I withdraw my reservation
19:34:30 <planetmaker> though the line ending of the tracking table changed, too
19:34:35 <planetmaker> it seems
19:35:05 <Eddi|zuHause> tracking table had changes to every column
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19:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should teach him how to enable rebase
19:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno if tortoisehg has that
19:43:14 <Westie> erm, question: there's an application out there can edit both the graphics and the NFO, but I've forgot its name. It's a GUI interface, and it's not GRFMaker. Any help please? :) (no, it's not grfcodec... :p)
19:43:44 <planetmaker> a hex editor?
19:44:01 <planetmaker> actually... my word processor can do that, too ;-)
19:44:37 <Westie> cba loading xvi32 :p
19:44:54 <Westie> but yeah, it's a sprite viewer-come-hex-editor
19:45:28 <Westie> I had it on my old install
19:45:33 <Westie> I just can't remember its name though :<
19:47:27 * planetmaker doesn't know any such application.
19:47:57 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: in his case probably a simple rollback and (re-)commit would have sufficed
19:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but why not make it properly?
19:48:56 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: what's unproper about hg rollback; hg pull -u; hg ci -m ...; hg push?
19:49:18 <planetmaker> it just doesn't work anymore when you have more than one local changeset committed
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19:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> see
19:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> when i do 5 atomic local commits, and then want to push them, it won't work.
19:56:09 <frosch123> planetmaker: hg qimport
19:56:55 <planetmaker> frosch123: that's only useful if you got a number of patches
19:57:09 <planetmaker> rather hg pull -u; hg qpush -a; hg qfinish ;-)
19:57:17 <frosch123> planetmaker: it can be used as rollback for dozen of revisions
20:05:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r22719 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix: compilation with gcc 4.7
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20:06:18 <planetmaker> frosch123: that sounds to me rather like a revert... than a rollback or rebase as it is a separate commit
20:07:54 <planetmaker> lol... users who use youtube videos as signature in the forums...
20:08:53 <frosch123> planetmaker: it extracts all revision properties like author and date, so you if you finish it again it is the same
20:09:45 <frosch123> yes, it's similar to rebase
20:13:16 <Wolf01> 'night all
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20:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so, are you going to explain that to a non-coder? ;)
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20:23:42 * frosch123 knows enough coders he would not dare to explain that to
20:29:40 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: what would be a track set name?
20:30:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: dunno
20:30:01 <planetmaker> Central European Track Set? Axle Weight Track Set? CE Tracks?
20:30:25 <frosch123> better tracks
20:30:30 <planetmaker> NewTracks?
20:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> NotNuTracks
20:38:22 <planetmaker> :-)
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20:45:19 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: shall I make you member, too: ?
20:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the need for that currently
20:50:13 <planetmaker> well, the intensity with which track types are discussed let me think you might ;-)
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21:27:18 <Sevalecan> hmm..
21:28:04 <Sevalecan> I've compiled openttd for windows, but it says it cannot find any available language packs.. The share folder is in the same relative position to the games folder where the executable is, but not in the same absolute installation path..
21:28:22 <planetmaker> language files are not shared
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21:28:49 <planetmaker> did you just compile the binary or the whole bundle?
21:29:45 <Sevalecan> I do not understand the question. I ran ./configure, make, make install. How do I make a bundle? D:
21:31:26 <Sevalecan> oh neat
21:31:35 <Sevalecan> (I ran make bundle)
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21:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> make bundle should not be necessary
21:32:46 <Sevalecan> if you're trying to suggest it should have been made via regular make, I am not claiming it wasn't. I simply assumed.
21:33:07 <Ammler> make run
21:33:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Sevalecan: "make" should compile the language files, and put them into "./bin/lang"
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21:33:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Sevalecan: so after "make" you should be able to run "bin/openttd"
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21:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Sevalecan: "make install" should then copy all stuff to /usr/local/something
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22:33:07 <Westie> how would one go about changing the loading speed of a passenger wagon by editing the NFO?
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23:52:15 <planetmaker> good night
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