IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-13
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00:08:53 <Gizmokid2005> Eddi|zuHause: bah, I was hoping that wasn't the cas.e
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04:24:53 <Darkdjinn> i would like to ask how i can setup a server on the public list to show up if i am behind a router? what i shall unlock and so on to make it work
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04:39:40 <Darkdjinn> when i open that port i still not see my hosted game in the public server list somehow
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05:01:07 <Rubidium> in 99% of the cases you won't be able to connect to a forwarded port on your external IP
05:02:15 <Rubidium> if it shows up on the list on servers.openttd.org it's most likely working
05:04:02 <hibby> i was wondering - is there room for more detailed data output from servers? I might take a look at tcl/ap+
05:04:16 <hibby> I'd love some rrdtool action on company data
05:04:42 <hibby> and be able to log scores / values to databases for a overall results table from Hibserv
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06:24:48 <hibby> Terkhen: nice one, thanks
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06:28:19 <andythenorth> chuggington grf for openttd?
06:28:28 <andythenorth> we'd get sued to ^^^^ that high
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07:14:11 <dihedral> i still hate postgres :-D
07:14:31 <dihedral> anybody familiar with the company strawberries in nl ?
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08:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the Siebenschläfer (~ 'ground hog') totally lied this year...
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10:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> # 'Cause there's a side to you, That I never knew, never knew
10:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause> # All the things you'd say, They were never true, never true
10:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> # And the games you'd play, You would always win, always win
10:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> # But I set fire to the rain, Watched it pour as I touched your face
10:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> # Let it burn while I cried, 'Cause I heard it screaming out your name, your name
11:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> at least that was the loudest noise around here ;)
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11:31:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you have been in southeast asia for too long
11:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly what i mean ;)
11:32:28 <pikka> well I hope not because I've 8 days to go... :P
11:35:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, the bad weather has one advantage: there's not so many monitor-destroying insects
11:36:22 <peter1138> insects have been destroying your monitors?
11:37:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they're small enough to fit inbetween the layers, so they crawl on your visible screen area, but you can't remove them
11:38:38 <peter1138> only if it's not been built properly
11:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing gets built "properly" nowadays.
11:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> everything is built so it breaks exactly 3 days after warranty expires
11:53:42 <pikka> I sure saw a lot of singaporekids today
11:54:02 <Scuddles> Did you ask locals for directions like a proper gaijin?
11:54:35 <pikka> they were on some kind of school excursion to the civilian war memorial
11:55:01 <Scuddles> You walked between the pillars didn't you
11:55:12 <Scuddles> And laughed at the sign which said "jepun"
11:55:19 <pikka> also we saw some kind of.military drill with many rifle firings
11:55:31 <pikka> no I did not laugh at jepun
11:55:36 <Scuddles> I am getting excited
11:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a "jepun" and what's to laugh about it?
11:55:59 <Scuddles> It is malay for Japan, and they spell things strangely all the time
11:56:18 <Scuddles> Especially telefon and motosikal
11:56:38 <pikka> I noticed that there sure are a lot of white people in advertisements here
11:56:50 <pikka> even more so than in japan
11:57:09 <Scuddles> raple were they old rifles or the silly new bullpup one
11:57:49 <pikka> I dunno we were on top of the esplanade, they were too far away.
11:58:35 <Scuddles> pruplething what are tou doing on the esplanade get off from there
11:59:08 <Scuddles> Anywoy, national day is 9th of August and they are most likely practicing, if you looked in the sky there were vapor trails or something from plens
11:59:16 <pikka> we were looking at the marina sands and the merlion
11:59:29 <Scuddles> public spitting is rude
12:00:29 <Scuddles> SORRY THIS IS A BIT OLD
12:01:45 <pikka> you should play more 2fort
12:02:23 <pikka> we haven't been to simlim square yet
12:03:00 <Scuddles> There's also that sungei road near that area
12:03:13 <Scuddles> You should buy a huge telescope for 3 dollars like me
12:03:29 <Scuddles> Or stolen items from the military like a load bearing vest D:
12:04:05 <pikka> I think I might have trouble on the plane with an axe
12:06:05 <pikka> it is a dinnertime I should think
12:09:26 <Scuddles> pruplething I am sad, I seem to have not recorded two nice hairshots
12:09:53 <Scuddles> also like I said I am off from the schoolz early tomorrow
12:10:21 <pikka> well tomorrow we have plans already
12:10:53 <pikka> you should show us around sim lim next week perhaps
12:11:05 <Scuddles> I'll show you around
12:11:18 <Scuddles> a roundabout or something
12:11:40 <Scuddles> Did you get confused by the locals speaking their singlishes?
12:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause> someone explain me please why i suddenly have a craving for Skittles :p
12:12:43 <pikka> there's still time for confusion though
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12:14:47 <Tabitha_Catherine> now you have a craving for tables, deal with them
12:15:46 <pikka> hmm I guess I shall wear no hat as it is dark
12:15:58 <pikka> goodbye for now gentlemen
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12:26:25 <peter1138> google+ sure uses snappy urls
12:28:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and i thought using perfectly rendered mathematical equations as captcha was already a bad idea...
12:28:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i love how google says konqueror is not a "modern browser"
12:28:57 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: xcf is the gimp native format
12:28:58 <planetmaker> (or did I mangle letters?)
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12:45:10 <planetmaker> hm... nice. Seems you wrote a vehicle generation script, Eddi|zuHause ? :-)
12:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, something like that ;)
12:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause> is there an e-mail notification on commit somewhere?
12:45:55 <planetmaker> join the #openttdcoop.devzone ;-)
12:46:00 <planetmaker> there's in-channel notification
12:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not what i asked ;)
12:46:15 <planetmaker> and... once you subscribe to a topic ("watch") you get e-mail notification, too
12:46:58 <planetmaker> you might need to activate that in your DevZone settings.
12:47:43 <planetmaker> my account -> email notifications -> only things I watch or am involved in
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12:48:24 <planetmaker> you could, of course also choose "for any event in all my projects"
12:48:55 <planetmaker> but... at least that's not for me or I get a notification about 50% of devzone activity :-P
12:51:26 <planetmaker> Eddi: maybe it is nicer to use , or ; separated tables and ignore leading / trailing white space?. It might align better in a text editor.
12:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, because that forbids us from using these characters in the fields
12:53:21 <planetmaker> :-) it would, yes.
12:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i used "export as text" in the google menu, which gave a tab-separated file. since we're really unlikely to use tabs anywhere, that seemed like a good idea
12:54:23 <planetmaker> ok, so it's a simple action there... I wonder how transparent changes will look like when we re-export an updated version
12:55:23 <planetmaker> oh, btw, I hope you didn't mind that I prod oberhümer to get on drawing once he talked about DBSet-compatible sets needed ;-)
12:56:43 <planetmaker> you should have that (2nd mail) also in your inbox to explain the scales of this set to him - though michi_cc answered already, too
12:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i read that message, but didn't know what you expect me to say
12:58:38 <planetmaker> a brief explanation how you got to the 1-tile wagon length... I was not quite sure about the scale-thoughts which you initially had and thought you could better communicate that ;-)
13:00:21 <planetmaker> but with 2px / m which he suggests I actually come quite close to a 1-tile per wagon length... anyway :-)
13:04:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the - view is a bad one to define scale
13:04:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the / and \ views are the important ones
13:04:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the - view is stretched
13:04:56 <planetmaker> though ideally it wouldn't matter.
13:05:01 <planetmaker> but... well, it does.
13:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> we could also do euclidically-correct - view, with the disadvantage of having space in diagonally travelling vehicles or the depot view
13:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> might be easier with rendered shapes this way
13:09:14 <planetmaker> I'm undecided. Might be an option. Rendering with post-processing / touching might be a good option given the amount of sprites which we need.
13:15:32 <Darkdjinn> i got a small question
13:16:00 <Darkdjinn> is it any possibility to up or low lands near a city without ruin the Reputation of the local authority
13:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. don't destroy trees in the process ;)
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13:17:12 <Darkdjinn> its nearly impossible if you make space or area clean for train/plane field
13:17:33 <planetmaker> build stations first. Then tracks
13:17:34 <Darkdjinn> i had outstanding and it went to terrible poor in just 1 sec on a very small bombing
13:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> build a bus service in the city first. each bus arrival will increase your rating
13:17:52 <Darkdjinn> bus i know but i ment plane air field
13:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> with enough busses, you quickly get the rating up again
13:18:12 <Darkdjinn> and which trains can carry more then 7.0 meter long trains
13:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and then there's the tree-cheat.
13:18:39 <Darkdjinn> what is the tree cheat ?
13:18:52 <Darkdjinn> and how to make mammoth long trains
13:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the maximum train length is in the advanced settings
13:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> default is 7 tiles, may be set up to 64 tiles
13:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> max station size is default 12, may also be set up to 64
13:19:56 <Darkdjinn> aha where in advanced swettings do you see the train limitations
13:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> in vehicles, i suppose
13:21:11 <Darkdjinn> but as for the reputation cheat trees
13:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles->trains->maximum train length
13:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. there is a flaw in the game mechanics regarding trees
13:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> when your rating is already appalling, you still can remove trees, without further reducing your rating
13:22:39 <Darkdjinn> yeah ok how to make reputation to be top again
13:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can build enough trees to get your rating up to medium again
13:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> each tree placed on an empty tile (that does not have a tree already) will increase your rating
13:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> up to some limit
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13:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you can remove 100 trees before your rating is appalling, you can remove another 500 trees, and then plant 600 trees, which will give you more than you lost for the 100 trees
13:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that news is sooo yesterday.
13:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (imagine a photo of me holding up yesterday's newspaper)
13:59:08 <Darkdjinn> eddi how long time does it take about before the rating is back when you have planted the trees ?
14:46:10 *** sla_ro|afk is now known as sla_ro|master
15:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> missing some library?
15:04:25 <Eddi|zuHause> have you installed useful.zip?
15:05:05 <__ln__> i would assume strcmp comes with mingw or windows
15:06:06 <glx> weird, strcmp and error are available
15:06:12 <__ln__> glx: so will OpenTTD be ported to HTML5 when Windows 8 comes out? :)
15:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> then there's something hopelessly wrong with your mingw setup
15:06:42 <LordAro> so a reinstallation of mingw is required? again...
15:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: same way as it will be ported to C#, flash, python, ...
15:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> does ./configure say anything odd?
15:07:46 <glx> configure doesn't check that IIRC
15:08:35 <LordAro> ah! make clean fixed it :) dunno what was wrong though...
15:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> "checking whether build environment is sane - Build environment is grinning and holding a spatula. Guess not."
15:09:20 <LordAro> dihedral: you seem to hate most forms of linux right now...
15:09:24 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: aren't you running out of linuxes these days? :p
15:10:04 <glx> LordAro: on some circonstances a file is not recompiled when it should have been
15:10:08 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i think that message should be used..everywhere! even when the build environment is fine :)
15:11:00 <glx> always try make clean first in this case :)
15:11:16 <LordAro> i'll try to remember that next time
15:17:59 <Purno> Heya guys, quick question, does OpenTTD have some feature to place specific objects anywhere you want, kinda like landscaping or simcity building style, if you get what I mean :P
15:19:06 <Purno> Awesome, how do I access it?
15:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's supposed to be a transmitter icon in the landscaping toolbar, probably only if you loaded an object grf
15:21:00 <Purno> Ah, I seem to have the NewObjects UI but no GRFs loaded.
15:21:22 <Purno> I'm totally new to NewObjects, are there certain popular GRFs for it?
15:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd almost suggest MariCo, but it's kinda difficult to find...
15:22:29 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you can check the ingame download for "object"
15:23:57 <Purno> aye, seems I've got two other NewObjects sets
15:24:53 <Purno> thanks, gotta go now for dinner, but will be back. Gotta figure out where OpenTTD stores its NewGRFs xD ttyl
15:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> in "my documents\openttd" or in "~/.openttd", depending on your OS flavour
15:27:11 <LordAro> if i have a function in NewGRFReadmeWindow struct, how do i call it from NewGRFWindow struct?
15:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> by casting the pointer
15:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or what do you mean?
15:31:33 <LordAro> i have a bool function, GrfHasReadme, in the struct of NewGRFReadmeWindow, but i want to use/call it in the struct of NewGRFWindow. how?
15:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> why must that function be in the struct at all?
15:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> is that not better near the code that tracks the newgrfs?
15:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. where it scans for grfs, and records their md5sum etc.
15:33:20 <LordAro> maybe... where is that? :)
15:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> how should i know...
15:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i have by far not seen all sections of code yet
15:33:58 <LordAro> you've spent more time around the code than me
15:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> grep is your friend
15:34:10 <LordAro> you more likely to have than me
15:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> ScanNewGRFFiles() may be a start
15:35:54 <planetmaker> it sounds a flag which could be set upon scanning the NewGRF list indeed
15:36:15 <planetmaker> each tar file is read at that stage anyway.
15:38:37 <LordAro> that was my idea too, but Alberth had other ideas :)
15:43:35 <LordAro> well, he gave me the function, and said to put it in the struct (previously mentioned) but then i guess it probably was intended to be moved at some point
15:43:46 <LordAro> i'm still a bit lost as to where to look btw
15:44:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the standard approach is "grep FunctionName src/*"
15:45:23 <LordAro> i don't know what function name to look for, really (ScanNewGRFFiles() didn't really help, but that's probably because i'm useless :)
15:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> on first glance, i'd say FillGRFDetails in src/newgrf_config.cpp
15:59:50 <Purno> If my OpenTTD doesn't have the data folder for NewGRF files, is that bad sign or can I just create it? :P
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16:02:04 <Purno> nvm, created it and seems to work, silly me should try before asking :P
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16:20:19 <Zuu> planetmaker: I got an account at DevZone. Can I just create projects there for my AI-projects or shall I ask you to do so? I guess the checkmark for respority imposes Mercurial?
16:20:46 <Zuu> Especially SuperLib, I think would benefit from having a public respority to browse the source files.
16:21:49 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 2.2360679775
16:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(5)*16
16:25:10 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 35.77708764
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17:25:18 <planetmaker> Zuu: do you already have a project at the devzone?
17:25:31 <planetmaker> if so: feel free to just create other projects as you need
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17:25:49 <planetmaker> if not, it'll need an admin (yexo, ammler me) to create the first project for you.
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17:27:59 <planetmaker> Having superlib there is definitely something I'd be happy about :-)
17:29:03 <planetmaker> tab completion failure
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17:32:44 <planetmaker> Zuu: yes, the checkmark 'repository' (by default) means mercurial. But that can be changed, git and svn both are available, but I'll have to look how exactly that works (probably by just creating it on the server directly)
17:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i understand that some sets like AV8 use sprites based on rendered images, anybody know whether there are matching scripts to render a model and convert it to ttd palette around?
17:38:57 <planetmaker> did you ask Pikka ?
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17:44:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pikka has a render setup that produces quite clean output
17:45:07 <andythenorth> automating beyond that is 99% unlikely to work
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22664 /trunk/src/lang/serbian.txt:
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: serbian - 5 changes by etran
17:58:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what i need is something where i click one button and get the sprites in a format usable by grfcodec
17:58:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'd like a magic button too :D
17:58:55 <andythenorth> preferably I could just imagine a sprite and it would exist
17:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: both the rendering as well as the palette conversion should be automate-able
17:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but i want me to save the trouble of figuring that out myself
18:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> touching the pixels so it actually looks good is a different issue
18:01:57 <andythenorth> I am getting slaughtered by yacd + tai
18:02:03 <andythenorth> it's insanely hard
18:05:28 <andythenorth> since when was property maintenance so expensive? :o
18:05:32 <andythenorth> maybe pikka has done evil
18:06:15 <V453000> dont you use japanese set? those raise it I think
18:06:38 <V453000> no clue :) but pikka tends to do that kind of things
18:06:47 <V453000> so I wouldnt be too surprised :d
18:07:47 <V453000> btw andythenorth: I have a question ... when you draw pixelthingies, do you do something special to prevent your eyes from being burnt? my eyes hurt after a while of looking into the zoomed pixels
18:08:12 <andythenorth> I just get square eyes :P
18:10:04 <hibby> is it just me, or is the standard newGRF set lacking in a maglev/monorail food carriage?
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18:24:14 <Belugas> andythenorth, an advice: keep them locked out
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18:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> since when was property maintenance so expensive? :o <-- i had this experience as well, but i wasn't sure if it was maybe caused by daylength patch. but since yacd doesn't include daylength, it's more likely that a GRF messed with base costs. or it really always was this expensive, but nobody noticed, since you make way too much money anyway
18:26:57 <andythenorth> right now I lose money :P
18:27:20 <andythenorth> 27 stations: property maintenance is $17,000 / year
18:29:11 <supermop> is it based on per tile, or per station?
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18:33:09 <hibby> LordAro: shall look into it
18:33:43 <andythenorth> wiki says it's per station
18:33:48 <andythenorth> I just lost another game :P
18:34:27 <MNIM> lol, I never lose a game, how does that even go?
18:35:02 <MNIM> (though I don't use any hard game grfs and I have never been able to go above 10 mil profit)
18:38:27 <andythenorth> yacd 2.3, vehicle costs high, construction costs medium
18:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause> bad thing about rainy days: furry things are wet.
18:38:51 <andythenorth> TAI, PBI, FISH, UKRS 2, UKRS 2 addons, UK tracks, OpenGFX+ rvs, CHIPS
18:39:12 <andythenorth> focus on pax, insanely hard
18:39:16 <andythenorth> DanMacK's idea ;P
18:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> slap the opengfx+ people to include some ;)
18:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> make an eGRVTS fork that only includes the horsies
18:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, that should be a very good idea
18:41:07 <andythenorth> the horsies are broken
18:41:10 <andythenorth> they have 0hp :P
18:41:16 <andythenorth> so they go at 1mph
18:41:21 <V453000> original acceleration is better anyway with RVs
18:41:30 <andythenorth> seems like cheating :P
18:41:32 <Chris_Booth> they should have 2 4 or 6 hp
18:42:10 <Chris_Booth> V453000: I am not sure
18:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yeah, fix that while at it :)
18:42:21 <Chris_Booth> you would have to test them on the same network
18:42:27 <Chris_Booth> but in general RVs suck
18:42:30 <andythenorth> I can haz am not fixing egrvts
18:42:37 <supermop> was there a plan to allow RV consists?
18:42:40 <andythenorth> I can haz enough stuffs to do
18:42:47 <V453000> well, I dont care which is better in terms of throughput, but original is just way better to play with
18:43:02 <andythenorth> when Terkhen has finished his university stuff, he might code rv-consists :P
18:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> a horse carriage with 1 horse should probably have ~0.7hp, and high max TE
18:43:30 <supermop> so you could 'multi-head' a wagon by spamming it with teams of clydesdales
18:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: 1 horse != 1 horse
18:43:42 <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: which is heavier, a ton of feathers, or a ton of coals?
18:44:04 <Chris_Booth> andythenorth: both are the same
18:44:08 <andythenorth> supermop: probably rvs would be limited to one powered vehicle per consist
18:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: 1hp was measured by one working horse going in circles. a horse used for carriages is usually weaker, but faster
18:44:23 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: 1 horse dose == 1 horse power
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18:44:58 <Chris_Booth> for the sake of openttd 1 horse should be 1hp
18:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> modern racing horses have _significantly_ less than 1hp
18:46:22 <supermop> it would be nice to be able to add draught animals in 2s
18:46:53 <supermop> rather than have separate wagons for 'one horse wagon' 'two horse wagon' 'six horse wagon'
18:47:14 <andythenorth> it's limited by the acceleration model iirc
18:47:26 <andythenorth> I want to do a truck set, but not without consists
18:47:43 <supermop> and then pick between donkeys, oxen, clydesdales, ponies, thourobreds, for different speeds/TE/HP etc
18:47:48 <andythenorth> or is it just more boring clicks to make rv consists?
18:47:59 <andythenorth> is the current way actually better for user?
18:48:18 <Chris_Booth> what do you want to do with them andythenorth ?
18:48:21 <supermop> too many wagon in purchase list with egrvts
18:48:40 <Chris_Booth> if it add in more RVs and more usable configs most usres will be happy
18:48:43 <andythenorth> I would have maybe 6 or 8 truck models
18:48:45 <supermop> i would rather have one horse/truck cab to buy per generation,
18:48:47 <andythenorth> and various types of trailer
18:48:53 <Chris_Booth> but if its like WAS then its pointless
18:48:55 <supermop> then pick the appropriate trailer
18:49:16 <Chris_Booth> andythenorth: that to me is a good idea
18:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: it's a tradeoff between longer purchase list or longer refit list
18:49:53 <supermop> if vehicles expire, then you have maybe 4 cabs at a time,
18:50:13 <supermop> plus an assortment of trailers, much like train wagons
18:50:21 <andythenorth> it's a nice theory :)
18:50:26 <andythenorth> there is no code for it :P
18:50:43 <Chris_Booth> RVs would be nice if they where more like trains
18:50:52 <supermop> and other 'nice' ideas are more important to me
18:51:10 <supermop> so if i were to expend goodwill asking for things, it woud not be that
18:51:21 <andythenorth> what would you rather have?
18:52:34 <andythenorth> roadtypes might be over-rated
18:52:42 <supermop> more slots for bridgetypes
18:52:47 <andythenorth> I am in two minds about use of railtypes
18:53:16 <Chris_Booth> I think road types are silly
18:53:24 <andythenorth> railtypes cleans up a few things and removes a few blockers, but I don't think it has added to gameplay at all
18:53:25 <Chris_Booth> all roads need are real diagonals
18:54:30 <supermop> i like railtypes alot, lets me have different depots
18:54:40 <supermop> its good aesthetically
18:55:16 <supermop> and would be more useful if people were more ambition about more non-standard gauge stuff
18:55:40 <supermop> like having both transrapid and JR maglevs,
18:56:47 <supermop> railtypes exist and I would go so far as to say that there is already a healthy selection of railtype grfs available
18:56:58 <andythenorth> dunno if they add much though?
18:57:13 <andythenorth> I'm not against them :)
18:57:14 <supermop> and that is important to many users
18:57:30 <andythenorth> I want roadtypes for some gameplay reasons
18:57:42 <andythenorth> but it might be tmwftlb
18:58:43 <V453000> isnt there just one railtype newgrf? swedish rails? nutracks look like shit atm
18:59:14 <supermop> i think many people will create content even if it has little gameplay benefit
18:59:35 <supermop> and that will be a huge boon to the 'realism' and 'model railroad' contingent
19:00:05 <andythenorth> it's enough to have standard / overhead electric / 3rd rail / narrow gauge
19:00:10 <andythenorth> more than that is just faff
19:01:53 <supermop> sure, but the speedlimits are nice, so long as we have no other way to artificially limit speeds
19:02:33 <supermop> and, i agree that the four you mention are all thats needed for steel rail
19:02:54 <supermop> but not every rail grf need to use all 16 slots
19:03:17 <supermop> its nice to be able to have more than 4, even if you only use 5
19:03:30 <supermop> i would say the same with roads
19:03:43 <andythenorth> basically it's a good case of 'the spec is no longer limiting the gameplay'
19:03:58 <supermop> even if we can only think of 4 types of useful roads,
19:04:17 <supermop> lets let people have 16 or 32 or whatever, and see what they come up with
19:05:01 <supermop> for example, i never use the 'track planning' in nutracks
19:05:31 <supermop> buts its the sort of novel idea that never would have been considered without a railtypes
19:05:44 <Darkdjinn> if i have a map there says cannot make trains on that map is there a way to change that so it can be buildt trains ?
19:11:29 <andythenorth> roads need trail, road, tramway, electrified tramway
19:11:58 <andythenorth> two types per tile are possible. not more
19:12:06 <Darkdjinn> its a home maded map tho
19:12:14 <Rubidium> andythenorth: and rail road! ;)
19:12:16 <Darkdjinn> you can build rail all other things but not any trains
19:12:37 <supermop> there might not be a train set loaded
19:12:51 <supermop> are you using new grfs?
19:12:57 <andythenorth> is that where we recode all train grfs to behave as rvs?
19:13:16 <andythenorth> I did consider using railtypes for rvs
19:13:23 <andythenorth> and just coding a whole new rv set using that
19:13:35 <Rubidium> Darkdjinn: a) you started to early for trains, b) you try to build diesel trains when there are only electric trains, but haven't got a electrified depot, c) you try to build the (old) TTD way from the vehicle list, d) the advanced setting for the amount of trains is set to 0
19:14:03 <Darkdjinn> yes but the question was like this
19:14:09 <Rubidium> and I'm fairly sure I'm forgetting some corner cases
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19:14:19 <Darkdjinn> i cannot build any trains locomotive at all only train tracks i can make
19:15:40 <Rubidium> oh yes, e) you added and then removed NewGRFs
19:15:56 <Darkdjinn> i can make as well train stations
19:16:48 <Rubidium> to expedite the whole process of figuring out what is wrong, a savegame would be the perfect way to show us the *exact* same state you are looking at. It removes a lot of the guessing game we're trying now.
19:17:27 <supermop> I would use the following: paved town road, unpaved town road, paved road, unpaved road, pedestrian town road, bus guideway, industrial looking roads,
19:17:45 <supermop> plus overlays of OHE and tram track
19:17:51 <andythenorth> creativity to the fore :o
19:18:08 <andythenorth> I am too lazy to click that many times on the menu
19:18:17 <andythenorth> you would have severe routing + crossing headaches :D
19:18:32 <supermop> then dont use my (hypothetical) road grf
19:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i had a proposal for a road set somewhere
19:19:40 <supermop> tram track and trolley wire should be distinct too, to allow for trolley-busses, and steam or diesel trams
19:20:31 <andythenorth> supermop: because there can only be two types per tile, either all your types are compatible (and so just graphics), or your towns are gridlocked :P
19:20:44 <andythenorth> (hypothetically)
19:20:49 <andythenorth> it's all a non-issue anyway :P
19:21:03 <andythenorth> peter1138 has threatened to work on it, but plays minecrack instead :P
19:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138 hasn't worked on anything for over a year now
19:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> practically since the inclusion of railtypes, nothing further has been done
19:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm still of the opinion that we need up to 3 roadtypes per tile (or 2 roadtypes and 1 railtype on a crossing)
19:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's worth adding an m8 for that
19:22:57 <supermop> if we have a bunch of road types we could simply use a new type for situations were 3 types are needed
19:23:11 <Eddi|zuHause> one more than m7
19:23:13 <andythenorth> supermop: yes, you can do that. the menu gets hideous :P
19:23:16 <Darkdjinn> supermop i sent you a message
19:23:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what's the cost of an m8?
19:23:32 <Darkdjinn> would be avesome if you know answer what the error can be
19:23:33 <supermop> yes, its akward, but some people will use it
19:23:53 <andythenorth> so the total memory required increases? but the map can support that?
19:24:01 <andythenorth> I thought the map was absolutely fixed
19:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it's fairly trivial to do. the "new map array" myth is only there to scare away people who make useless requests :p
19:24:39 <andythenorth> @calc (2048*2048)/8
19:24:39 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 524288
19:24:53 <andythenorth> I can afford that much RAM :P
19:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it'll be about 4MB on a huge map
19:25:30 <andythenorth> the 2 roadtypes + 1 railtype case seems valid
19:25:44 <andythenorth> but there is that appallingly unsolvable issue with catenary
19:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> a rail crossing might have enough bits, though
19:25:53 <andythenorth> which I figured out how to solve at some point
19:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but a normal road with 3 roadtypes does not.
19:26:28 <andythenorth> that has the same issue
19:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> a rail crossing needs less bits for the layout
19:26:43 <andythenorth> the catenary issue was 'how to draw it'
19:26:52 <andythenorth> I think the conclusion was 'only use one type of catenary'
19:27:00 <andythenorth> or 'let one type win'
19:27:16 <andythenorth> drawing 2 or 3 layers of catenary will just break
19:27:49 <supermop> also 600 volt trolley wire running right under 15000 v ac soundls like trouble
19:28:04 <Eddi|zuHause> sort by internal roadtype-id, and only draw the lowest or highest one
19:28:16 <andythenorth> the keen eyed might file bug reports
19:28:20 <andythenorth> close those as invalid :P
19:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: there are rail crossings that do that
19:28:45 <andythenorth> you just bridge the trolley wire with a frog iirc?
19:29:02 <andythenorth> you need to use poles on the trolley, not pantograph
19:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you shut off power temporarily
19:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and go over it rolling
19:29:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if the map stuff was coded, I would be happy to try and write drawing code for roadtypes
19:29:33 <andythenorth> I have managed to hack drawing code before
19:29:56 <andythenorth> everything else in trunk runs up against my limited patience
19:30:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have map code for diagonal rail crossings, you could do drawing code for that ;)
19:30:12 <andythenorth> you'd need sprites as well?
19:30:22 <andythenorth> didn't I test a patch for that?
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19:30:29 <andythenorth> it has some...issues
19:30:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i think most necessary sprites were already there
19:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i solved one of the issues
19:30:59 <andythenorth> I'm sure it was a crossing patch I tested - rvs can get trapped in crossing
19:31:15 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, yes, that part i did not solve (yet)
19:36:05 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think the roadvehicle-trap issue is just a handful LOC, the question is which lines
19:37:45 <andythenorth> do you know which file?
19:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> roadveh_cmd.cpp would be my guess
19:39:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there was some code which read like "define this as 'red signal'"
19:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> where a check would be necessary whether the current tile is a barred crossing already
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19:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's a function "TrackStatusToRedSignals" somewhere
19:55:56 <Eddi|zuHause> in src/track_func.h
19:57:19 <supermop> there seems to be no equivalent of ms paint
19:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: why would you want any of that?
19:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: use gimp
19:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it uses the result of GetTileTrackStatus
19:58:02 <supermop> i need to sketch something reall quick but i am at work
19:59:48 <supermop> and dont want to walk to the scanner
20:00:39 <supermop> i'll just make a spread sheet
20:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so GetTileTrackStatus_Road in src/road_cmd.cpp, the TRANSPORT_ROAD case
20:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "if (IsCrossingBarred(tile))" needs another check of whether the adjacent crossing is also barred
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20:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause> something like "if (IsCrossingBarred(tile) && (!IsLevelCrossingTile(TileAddByDiagDir(tile, ReverseDiagDir(side))) || !IsCrossingBarred(TileAddByDiagDir(tile, ReverseDiagDir(side))))) red_signals = trackdirbits;"
20:07:13 <andythenorth> that's a pretty piece of code :P
20:08:12 <Darkdjinn> is there a limit of maps to 2048x2048 or 4096x4096 ?
20:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> 2048 is the current limit
20:10:32 <Darkdjinn> any chance it will be more ?
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20:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you show us a full map with everything connected, that is still playable in a modern machine
20:15:31 <supermop> are one way roads an overlay of regular roads, or a different type?
20:15:56 <andythenorth> they're just a bit set on the tile iirc
20:16:10 <andythenorth> although everything is 'just' a bit set on a tile :P
20:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: they are regular roads, with an arrow drawn on top of them
20:16:38 <supermop> making a spread sheet
20:16:42 <andythenorth> they're not a different type in the sense that the game currently uses types, or roadtypes
20:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and trams do not have one-way-ness
20:17:14 <Eddi|zuHause> which may or may not be a good idea
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20:20:15 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... cool... crash on RV crash
20:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd: /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/level/src/map_func.h:347: TileIndexDiff TileOffsByDiagDir(DiagDirection): Assertion `IsValidDiagDirection(dir)' failed.
20:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, doesn't seem to be the RV crash
20:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> something causes INVALID_DIAGDIR to pass that line that i modified above
20:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm not sure what that means
20:28:24 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. in the pathfinder
20:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, that should be caught properly
20:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the code style wrt multi-line if-conditions?
20:32:51 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, now it doesn't work at all...
20:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, need to rethink this. the diagdir never seems to be passed. so either i need to add that, or need to play around with the axis and mask some trackbits
20:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yay... it seems to work now
20:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a wonder i got this bitmask the right way around the first time :p
20:47:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so... how was this with the patch queues again?
20:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diagonal_and_adjacent_crossings_r22664.diff
20:56:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: **** Only garbage was found in the patch input.
20:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: use wget
20:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause> we had this problem previously
20:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> curl fails on some redirect
20:57:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or try users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diagonal_and_adjacent_crossings_r22664.diff
20:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause> be aware that openttd.grf fails building due to nforenum barfing on the action 5 type
20:58:28 <andythenorth> I need dylib whatever that is
20:58:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this might have to wait until tomorrow sorry :|
20:58:47 <Eddi|zuHause> just download the file ;)
20:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but the second url i gave should work
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21:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: man curl suggests "curl -L"
21:02:50 <andythenorth> second url worked
21:03:09 <andythenorth> bed calls though :P
21:05:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: boom!
21:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of boom?
21:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to put the path signals further away, obviously ;)
21:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> vodafone doesn't happen to be a subsidiary of sony? :p
21:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: ah, something seems to be fishy with reversing trains and making reservations
21:12:07 <andythenorth> the rv detects the reservation, but stops on the wrong tile (I think)
21:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> here, in some corner cases it doesn't detect that a path signal is near, so it doesn't reserve the crossing
21:13:04 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe i messed up the road axis?
21:13:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this rv is stopped
21:13:13 <andythenorth> it detects the reservation
21:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> aha. interesting, need to check that
21:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yep. something fishy with the axis
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21:15:30 <Eddi|zuHause> if the road is in / axis it works, if the road is in \ axis it doesn't
21:16:43 <andythenorth> I have uncanny ability to hit edge cases :P
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21:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well that was kinda a 50/50 "edge case" :p
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