IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-10
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02:20:10 <hibby> hola :)
02:21:27 <hibby> dangit, fallen out with irssi. Back shortly
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02:25:36 <hibby> got a quick question about running as a dedicated server if anyone's about
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06:40:05 <planetmaker> moin
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07:38:03 <Terkhen> good morning
07:58:27 <peter1138> hi
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09:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting, the game crashes with a segmentation fault if i set an engine to both dualheaded and articulated
09:58:43 <Terkhen> does it do the same thing in 1.0.x?
09:59:16 <planetmaker> nice templating in cets, Eddi|zuHause :-)
10:01:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: no, but it doesn't seem to be articulated after it's built (only in the build menu there appear two)
10:02:22 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yeah, but i'm not sure if it's flexible enough in the long term
10:03:41 <Terkhen> hmm... then the crash is probably caused by my unification code, but the original code was broken to begin with
10:04:14 <Terkhen> I don't have time to look at it now anyways :)
10:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if it's not possible to do vehicles that are both dualheaded and have articulated vehicles in each head, there is quite a problem with modeling things like the ICE1...
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10:07:54 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: we can always refactor when it's needed.
10:08:02 <planetmaker> or add another template for other usages
10:08:29 <planetmaker> after all there's no template to cover all vehicles which is not as complex as a writing everything everytime ;-)
10:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> obviously ;)
10:10:47 <Rubidium> the spec says you can't build dualheaded articulated vehicles
10:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, but a) it shouldn't crash if you try, and b) one can change the specs ;)
10:12:22 <Rubidium> then file a bug report about the crash
10:12:37 <Rubidium> after all, there are various other cases where invalid NewGRFs cause crashes
10:13:37 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, in 1.0 the vehicle seems to be dualheaded, but not articulated
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11:28:06 <Lo> hi
11:28:32 <Alberth> hi
11:28:39 <Lo> I am a programmer and wanted to ask whether I could contribute to the project
11:29:06 <Lo> who could I ask best?
11:29:18 <Alberth> here would be fine :)
11:29:29 <Lo> okay, who exactly? :)
11:29:49 <Alberth> there are several you can ask here :)
11:30:01 <Alberth> anything in particular you like
11:30:03 <Alberth> ?
11:30:30 <Lo> Yeah, I heard that there was a patch to allow trains on *foreign* tracks in multiplayer
11:30:44 <Lo> But I was said it was to buggy to get into the main branch
11:30:50 <Alberth> the IS patch (infra structure sharing) patch
11:30:53 <Lo> So I wanted to ask whether I could help
11:31:10 <Alberth> many patches 'live' at the OpenTTD development forum
11:31:21 <Lo> oh, okay
11:31:34 <SpComb> live and die
11:31:37 <Alberth> also there is a bugtracker with open issues (
11:32:06 <Alberth> and there is lots of software around the NewGRF files
11:32:36 <Lo> oh, I see the post. Is the reason they didn't really *release* it that it is still too buggy?
11:32:44 <Alberth> Lo: imho not so much buggy as it is conceptually wrong
11:33:12 <Alberth> most patches there are not made by devs but by users like you
11:33:29 <Alberth> s/devs/openttd devs/
11:34:00 <Lo> :( But if this is true, than there will never be IS enabled in the "main openttd"?
11:34:38 <Alberth> patches that are good enough in all ways, are adopted normally
11:34:50 <Alberth> I very much doubt IS will get there ever, though
11:35:27 <Alberth> the fundamental problem imho is that I can block your game by just driving an engine on your track, and push 'stop'
11:35:31 <Lo> Is it possible to bring IS ever to openttd (not necessarily the IS of this forum post)
11:35:34 <Lo> ?
11:36:10 <Lo> I would really be interested to discuss this detailed, maybe, there can still be found a solution
11:36:31 <Alberth> a patched openttd version sure, and that can be done today (and probably already exists)
11:36:43 <Alberth> official openttd: first fix the above problem at least
11:37:28 <Alberth> eg the Chillcore patchpack is a version of openttd with many patches from the development forum
11:39:50 <Alberth> Lo: I don't see a good way to fix blocker problems like the above, inherently to the IS patch is that you must trust the other players, which proves not to be true at all times
11:39:58 <Lo> Ah, I see, I guess I'll need to check the forum post more detailed to understand the issues
11:40:48 <Lo> Oh, you mean like if a train gets caught in the foreign net (can not escape anymore) than this is bad for your train?
11:40:52 <Alberth> yeah, you probably want to read the whole thread, and afaik there was another version before this one, you may want to look into that too
11:40:57 <Lo> So the other players might play unfair...?
11:41:18 <Alberth> players that want to win will do anything
11:42:13 <Alberth> and that includes blocking your tracks, and diverting their own while you use it, and no doubt many other messy things you can do
11:42:45 <Lo> Okay, but just for local games... what about if every player could tell #openttd who he/she trusts? We play it mainly in lan games where everyone knows each other...
11:43:58 <planetmaker> Well, there it's easy, of course
11:44:11 <Alberth> perhaps that is a way, I don't know
11:44:16 <planetmaker> The problem is to find a good solution for cases where things are not easy
11:44:53 <planetmaker> But then... a default along the lines of "don't allow sharing" with options to pull off your own vehicles from other people tracks...
11:45:13 <planetmaker> but that's already a crucial question on how to solve that in a way that it won't give unfair advantages or penatlties
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11:45:49 <Lo> @planetmaker, sorry, I did not get exactly what you meant by "But then..."
11:47:34 <Lo> Did you mean that it should give a possibility to get your trains back home (on your track net) when it is "caught"?
11:47:53 <Lo> (So that "friendships" would not be necessary anymore)
11:48:50 <Alberth> you definitely need that, or an evil player can continue to block you
11:50:18 <Lo> Yeah, I see this
11:51:10 <Lo> But I ask myself whether "friend groups" would be a possibility that was not considered. But I am not through all the forum posts...
11:52:09 <SpComb> if playing IS with people you trust is fun, then why rule it out entirely just because some nutcases can grief with it?
11:53:29 <Alberth> I don't even understand why you don't play coop instead
11:53:42 <SpComb> yeah, I do
11:54:56 <Alberth> one of the problems is that as soon as you add it, server admins will enable the setting, and we'll get swamped with requests to 'fix' it.
11:55:11 <Lo> Alberth, in coop, you have the same company, right?
11:55:12 <SpComb> that's a valid issue
11:55:18 <Alberth> Lo: yes
11:55:53 <SpComb> coop requires a lot more control, because you need a unified building/playing style
11:56:05 <SpComb> IS provides more separation for a somewhat more informal game
11:56:46 <SpComb> what's nice about it is that the very basic track-sharing mechanic was, I recall, very simple in terms of code
11:57:19 <Alberth> how is it different? if you are to share tracks, you need unified style too
11:57:50 <Lo> Style? what can be meant whith that? Electric vs Steam, maybe? :)
11:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: no, you can more cleanly define separation points, in terms of "from here you can do what you want"
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11:58:52 <Alberth> Lo: another fun one, I dump your tracks full of my trains so you cannot use the capacity that you need/want
11:58:52 <SpComb> it's easier to define espareate roles for people, and then just cooperate in some places
11:58:52 <Alberth> Style as in length of blocks, I think
11:59:12 <Lo> @Alberth: Yeah, okay, but if this is a friend of mine, he/she will never do this
11:59:24 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: but you can do that with the same colour of tracks too, just add a sign or so
11:59:24 <SpComb> but I mean, griefing is an implicit part of multiplayer, and even vanilla trunk still has plenty of problems with grefing, but that's not a reason to disable multiplayer
11:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause> in my solo-multiplayer game i had one company per "country", and connection points where trains can go through
11:59:41 <SpComb> and some of those issues are just ones that arent
11:59:49 <SpComb> and some of those issues are just ones that aren't worth solving using technical solutions
12:00:01 <SpComb> instead, you can just have that admin around to kick the guy
12:00:25 <Alberth> s/can just/must/ :)
12:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's already true for "normal" servers as well
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12:01:23 <SpComb> Lo: re style, e.g:
12:02:30 <SpComb> and I do recall building left-to-right track direction switchers in my IS games :)
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12:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that is perfectly realistic ;)
12:03:58 <Lo> Okay, if you IS differs, well, still, what's the issue? If my train is maybe to long for some stations, the person which will have blocked stations all the time might ask me to use other trains, and then we'll find an agreement...
12:04:19 <Lo> I still do not see what theoretically makes it difficult to play IS with friends
12:04:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that is absolutely not the issue
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12:37:05 <planetmaker> Lo: the issue is if you have such trains stopped in your stations and the other not responding. What options should be available?
12:37:33 <planetmaker> or another person having your trains forced in an ever-lasting circle on his tracks: what to do about that?
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12:39:29 <Terkhen> it does not even have to be something malicious, someone could place wrong signals near your mainline, blocking it completely
12:39:40 <Alberth> even your friend may have left the computer to get some coffee
12:39:45 <SpComb> go over to his room and slap him? :)
12:40:02 <Terkhen> we have to worry about the cases in which that is not possible
12:40:30 <Terkhen> if someone makes a patch that works only under some circumstances or for certain people, they can always use a patched version
12:41:31 <SpComb> and I posit that the feature would be very useful in some situations in its current form, and trying to solve the rest of the social issues with code wouldn't be worth it
12:41:50 <SpComb> but myes, server admins complaining about "bugs" would be annoying
12:42:10 <SpComb> you'd need a big disclaimer, but nobody cares about those :)
12:44:38 <Terkhen> as I mentioned, in those cases they can use a patched version... but I'm against adding stuff that will need to be fixed later
12:45:42 <Terkhen> and yes, the bigger the disclaimer, the more it is ignored :)
12:47:49 <Lo> @planetmaker I see all these issues, but... Would it be difficult for you to just allow this as a (free to enable) feature in LAN-games only?
12:48:05 <Lo> In LAN, you can always complain to your friends about such issues
12:48:31 <Lo> And it might help the IS code to get better if it would be played more frequently, as in LAN games
12:48:35 <SpComb> that would be a kind of pointless restriction
12:49:19 <Lo> Okay, but why?
12:49:58 <Alberth> LAN can be big too
12:50:35 <Lo> Agreed. But usually, it is small, I think. Plus that admins can dis or en-able IS as an option.
12:50:46 <Lo> I think that would be accepted
12:51:15 <Alberth> they don't do that, just like they currently don't do game management
12:51:24 <Lo> I mean, actually, LAN is locally restricted. Usually, only in the same building, or maybe in the same university, or suff like that
12:52:25 <Alberth> but even your friend can mess up accidentally, and you need a way to fix it without going over to his house/room/whatever, imho
12:53:13 <Lo> send him a message via the internet? :)
12:53:22 <Lo> or her
12:53:28 <Alberth> ie I play with my brother every now and then and he messes up signals. No problem, I can fix that
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13:00:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22645 /trunk/src/newgrf_canal.cpp: -Fix [FS#4678]: GetSection() does not return a LockPart.
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13:01:59 <Hyronymus> afternoon
13:02:12 * Hyronymus has a licensing question
13:03:17 <Hyronymus> if you are trying to re-release a set under a license, how much effort do you need to take to get permission from co-authors
13:04:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22646 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Simplify MP_WATER map accessors, esp. for locks and depots. (based on patched by adf88 and michi_cc)
13:04:27 <Hyronymus> and, more specific, can you set a date before a reaction must be in
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13:07:32 <Alberth> the only answer I can think of is 'enough to convince a court'
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13:08:05 <Hyronymus> hmm
13:08:12 <Rubidium> which would generally be 70? years after the co-authors died?
13:08:21 <Alberth> setting a date may be possible, but you'd have make sure the person receives the message, at least
13:08:28 * Hyronymus thinks he'll be dead too then
13:09:21 <Alberth> but no message would not mean he gives permission, I think
13:10:20 <Hyronymus> I was thinking the same
13:10:36 <Hyronymus> but then again, you were clearly specifying a time frame
13:11:27 <Terkhen> I think that the safest path is getting permission from everyone, and if not possible removing the contributions from authors that cannot be located or don't give permission
13:12:09 <Rubidium> Hyronymus: but you have no guarantee that they received, read and understood the request
13:13:40 <Hyronymus> true, Rubidium
13:13:53 <Hyronymus> but if you do, then it'll be "failsafe"
13:14:21 <Hyronymus> you see, for the Dutch Trainset I can trace down the grpahics artists
13:14:39 <Rubidium> possibly, but... I'm definitely not a lawyer so I can't say it is failsafe
13:14:43 <Hyronymus> every spritesheet included the artists name too
13:14:47 <Hyronymus> but for the code part
13:15:14 <Hyronymus> also, we used GRFmaker: do you have to ask permission from people who provided tools to create something?
13:15:56 <Rubidium> don't know; depends on the case
13:16:19 <Rubidium> e.g. gcc has a clause for some of the optimised code it compiles into binaries
13:16:45 <Rubidium> likewise Microsoft has a clause for statically linking libc
13:17:15 <Rubidium> on the other hand, I doubt a pencil or paper factory has any rights to claim partial copyright on drawings
13:18:44 <Rubidium> though I have no idea about the internals of GRFmaker, i.e. whether they actually add something copyrightable into the GRF
13:20:39 <Hyronymus> k
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13:21:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22647 /trunk/src/water_map.h: -Codechange: Enhance MP_WATER map accessors with assertions. (adf88)
13:23:29 <planetmaker> Hyronymus: what's the current license of the set?
13:24:19 <Hyronymus> none, tbh
13:24:26 <planetmaker> urgs. That's bad
13:25:01 <Terkhen> yes, the spain set is in the same situation
13:25:07 <planetmaker> then you have no other option trying to get hold of every contributor and getting a 'use whatever license you want' from them ;-)
13:25:33 <planetmaker> (which is what one often gets, if there's a response at all :S )
13:25:48 <Hyronymus> at the risk of getting kicked...
13:25:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22648 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_industries.cpp newgrf_industrytiles.cpp): -Fix (r22629): Missing 'break'. (thanks michi_cc)
13:25:57 <Hyronymus> IMPORTANT: Please reply to this mail to inform us that you received it properly.
13:25:58 <Hyronymus> Hi <name>,
13:26:00 <Hyronymus> During the development of the Dutch Trainset v1 you have submitted code and/or graphics for usage in the Dutch Trainset. At that time a license under which code and/or art was accepted wasn't specified. Purno and I like to put the Dutch Trainset on the Bananas server for free downloadable OTTD content. If you are unfamilair with what Bananas excatly is, we kindly ask you to read about...
13:26:01 <Hyronymus> ...Bananas here first.
13:26:03 <Hyronymus> All content on Bananas must be licensed under a GPL or CC license. Purno and I kindly ask you to tell us under which of the following licenses we may release the Dutch Trainset v1 containing your code and/or art on Bananas:
13:26:04 <Hyronymus> - CC BY-NC-ND v2.0 license, see here for a detailed description of this license
13:26:06 <Hyronymus> - CC-BY-NC-SA v3.0 license, see here for a detailed description of this license
13:26:07 <Hyronymus> - no license whatsoever
13:26:09 <Hyronymus> Purno and I appreciate it if you can inform us on your decision before August 1st 2011. If you have any questions prior to making a decision please contact us.
13:26:33 <planetmaker> uhm... there's paste services :-)
13:26:41 <Hyronymus> lol
13:26:43 <Hyronymus> where
13:26:45 <Hyronymus> :p
13:26:51 <Hyronymus> oh, pastebin
13:26:52 <Terkhen> or pastebin
13:26:54 <planetmaker> in your browser ;-)
13:27:02 <planetmaker> like those, yes
13:27:07 <Hyronymus> makes me wonder where my pastebin plugin went
13:27:27 <planetmaker> Hyronymus: we cannot host the DutchTrainSet, if you use a ND clause
13:27:30 <planetmaker> on the DevZone
13:27:40 <planetmaker> mind that ;-)
13:27:49 <Hyronymus> it never was on the Devzone
13:27:54 <planetmaker> yes, I know
13:28:04 <Hyronymus> and if we make v2 we start from scratch
13:28:07 <planetmaker> but... why do you want to put that to a vote?
13:28:22 <planetmaker> if you get a ND agreement it means you may not touch or modify it anyway. So it's lost
13:28:36 <Hyronymus> lost?
13:28:42 <planetmaker> you cannot modify it
13:28:50 <planetmaker> lost for the community to build upon
13:28:59 <Hyronymus> true, but it is a license
13:29:38 <planetmaker> except "you may distribute the compiled grf" it gives no advantage
13:30:05 <Hyronymus> no, but right now we cannot put the set on bananas
13:30:13 <planetmaker> ok
13:30:29 <planetmaker> Honestly I'd not make it an explicit option, though
13:30:34 <planetmaker> most people simply don't care ;-)
13:30:42 <Hyronymus> lol
13:30:44 <planetmaker> so don't give them the choice. If they care, they'll know
13:30:54 <frosch123> [15:26] <Hyronymus> All content on Bananas must be licensed under a GPL or CC license. <- since when?
13:31:03 <Hyronymus> since 15:25
13:31:32 <michi_cc> I'd try to drop the NC clause as well, that non-commercial thing quite a gray area, e.g. is putting it on a compilation CD which is not free already commercial or not?
13:31:42 <planetmaker> indeed... for bananas you don't need it. If you're author you can distribute it under whatever conditions you want.
13:31:59 <planetmaker> you only have to accept the TOS
13:32:29 <Ammler> [15:27] <Hyronymus> it never was on the Devzone <-- :-P
13:32:32 <Hyronymus> but Purno and I arent the olny authors
13:32:54 <planetmaker> yes, but it's sufficient that you ARE a author
13:33:00 <Hyronymus> Ammler: we're doing something illegal then :P
13:33:10 <michi_cc> So strictly speaking NC might even forbid a game magazine to include it on an included CD, which is not very nice if you want the set to get played.
13:33:11 <Ammler> djn put it there
13:33:24 <Hyronymus> hmm, that puts stuff into a different perspective
13:33:50 <planetmaker> and you can chose for distribution under CC-BY-NC-ND. As people obviously were happy to have the community use it
13:34:07 <planetmaker> and use something usable for future releases
13:34:13 <Hyronymus> uhuh
13:34:31 <Ammler> it is ok to put a existing project on devzone and "fix" the license after it, just not start a "illegal" project there, IMO
13:38:40 <JVassie> hi Hyronymus
13:39:15 <Alberth> start the project, and only add graphics that are free
13:39:40 <Hyronymus> hi JVassie
13:39:41 <Alberth> that way you can start while you wait for answers
13:41:42 <Hyronymus> true
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13:58:07 <JVassie> a new project Hyronymus?
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14:04:13 <andythenorth> I broke rule #1
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14:06:17 <JVassie> queerdom?
14:06:57 <Terkhen> posting on bros thread?
14:07:03 <andythenorth> that's rule #3
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14:08:49 <andythenorth> rule #1 stay out of suggestions forum
14:08:54 <planetmaker> :-)
14:09:47 <planetmaker> sometimes it's fun reading. But task sizes and difficulty are usually underestimated at least two orders of magnitudes there ;-)
14:10:06 <planetmaker> not to speak of "rewrite game" suggestions ;-)
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14:21:00 <Terkhen> :)
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14:30:35 <Purno> Hi all :)
14:32:56 <Purno> Is this thing broken or are you all just very silent?
14:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
14:33:10 <Purno> Ah thanks :)
14:33:24 <Purno> It's been a while since I"ve been on IRC... lets see how stuff worked again :P
14:33:42 <Purno> Is there any way to poke Hyro? He requested me to be on IRC :P
14:34:17 <frosch123> he filled this channel with content from 15:01 to 15:41
14:34:55 <planetmaker> :-D
14:35:05 <frosch123> <- you can find the logs here
14:35:30 <frosch123> then you can just highlight Hyronym*s by typing his nick :)
14:35:31 <Eddi|zuHause> easiest way is to highlight him spelling out his complete name. like typing hyr[tab].
14:36:07 <frosch123> but don't summon daemons, if you cannot deal with them
14:36:14 <Purno> Hyronymus
14:37:16 <Purno> I guess he's AFK, thanks for the help though :P
14:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway. there are some bits in copyright about how coauthors cannot reject publishing, unless they have very good reasons
14:42:44 <Hyronymus> Purno:
14:42:50 <Hyronymus> forgot to put my sound on
14:43:03 <Hyronymus> (so I didn't hear my highlight warning)
14:44:29 <Purno> Silly you
14:44:41 <Purno> So, ehm... you summoned me
14:44:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22649 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Fix [FS#4670]: Switching from a red to a white highlight (by switching to another tool) without switching the highlight mode (HT_RECT etc.) did not mark the selection dirty.
14:45:34 <Hyronymus> lol
14:45:38 <Hyronymus> summoned me
14:45:43 <Hyronymus> but yeah
14:45:48 <Hyronymus> did you read the PM on the forum
14:46:02 <Purno> yep, you read the reply?
14:46:06 <Hyronymus> no
14:46:08 <Hyronymus> :p
14:46:15 <Purno> slacker :P
14:46:17 <Hyronymus> doesn't matter as it seems
14:46:28 <Purno> nah, I basically said "ok"
14:46:32 <Hyronymus> I think we've been misunderstanding the Bananas requirement
14:47:18 <Hyronymus> it was mentioned earlier that if sufficient that you and me as authors decide to put the set on Bananas
14:47:28 <Hyronymus> albeit under the strict license
14:48:19 <Purno> So basically the first license I suggested should do without asking further permission?
14:48:21 <Hyronymus> and replace if with it is
14:48:23 <Hyronymus> :p
14:48:42 <Hyronymus> yes, that seems to be the case
14:50:03 <Ammler> Hyronymus: in doubt, you can make a custom license
14:50:15 <Purno> So, we've done all this trouble for nothing and the set could've already been uploaded? :P
14:50:15 <frosch123> <- bananas does not care about licenses, it justs asks for certain rights for itself, and somewhat ensures that you have the rights to grant those rights
14:50:17 <Ammler> bananas does basically not care about a valid license
14:50:18 <Hyronymus> custom?
14:50:28 <Ammler> just a valid owner
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14:50:40 <Ammler> like the pikka sets
14:50:41 <Hyronymus> The Dutch Trainset team
14:52:17 <planetmaker> Purno: having a good, community-friendly license never is 'for nothing'.
14:52:24 <planetmaker> Without a set will die
14:53:54 <Hyronymus> let's see what Pikka's license is like
14:54:05 <Ammler> none
14:54:14 <Ammler> Hyronymus: that is bad example for license
14:54:20 <Hyronymus> oh, it says Custom :P
14:54:36 <Ammler> it is a example how to upload sets without license
14:54:45 <Hyronymus> right
14:54:56 <Hyronymus> what say you, Purno
14:55:20 <Purno> What would be the benefit of a custom license?
14:55:24 <Hyronymus> go "Custom" or CC BY-NC-ND v2.0
14:56:05 <Purno> I see no benefit for Custom yet, so I'd go for the CC license
14:56:24 <Ammler> there is only one useable license, GPL :-)
14:56:29 <Hyronymus> I think it also covers our back, Purno
14:56:38 <Hyronymus> in case co-authors disagree
14:57:08 <JVassie> someone write a spelling check bot, ro a dictionary bot
14:57:11 <JVassie> *or
14:57:16 <JVassie> :o
14:57:18 <JVassie> Purno?
14:57:20 <JVassie> in my irc?
14:57:21 <JVassie> nevah
14:57:26 <Purno> :o
14:57:33 * JVassie is glad bukkit aint here
15:00:26 <JVassie> sigh
15:00:31 <JVassie> find myself working on sunday again
15:00:34 <Hyronymus> Purno: all we need is to add the licence to the grf's
15:01:12 <Ammler> no need, if you don't use custom license
15:02:19 <Hyronymus> then not, but I believe Purno and I prefer the ND
15:02:37 <Ammler> you should just upload to bnanas and use the most restirctive license
15:02:52 <Purno> that'd be the ND right?
15:03:04 <Ammler> and then do as another job licnese the set for future releases
15:03:09 <JVassie> negligent discharge?
15:03:11 <Ammler> which should be preferable gpl
15:03:11 * Hyronymus waits for Ammler to say "or custom"
15:04:52 <Ammler> Hyronymus: just upload the current set and don't care the future license is compatible
15:06:00 <Hyronymus> Ammler: so just upload, specify a licence upon uploading but not adding a licence to the zip
15:06:22 * Hyronymus is getting confused
15:06:24 <Ammler> yep, and decide rather a proper license for future releases
15:06:37 <Ammler> as making a license compatible with both
15:06:49 <planetmaker> Hyronymus: of course you can chose only a license which your contributors allow you to chose
15:07:02 <planetmaker> but something like cc-by-nc-nd for an existing released set should cover that
15:07:16 <planetmaker> for any future release: choose a different, a well-suitable license
15:07:25 <planetmaker> every release can entirely be different. In principle
15:07:35 <JVassie> gimme a G
15:07:37 <JVassie> gimme a P
15:07:40 <JVassie> gimme an L
15:07:42 <planetmaker> 2
15:07:44 <planetmaker> :-P
15:07:47 <Purno> Oh stop the GPL fanboying :P
15:07:48 * Hyronymus trouts JVassie
15:07:56 * JVassie removes Punro forcibly
15:08:07 <Ammler> you don't need to ask Purno for GPL, he already agreed ;-)
15:08:24 <Hyronymus> it's about being comfortable with something, Ammler
15:08:25 <Purno> And it's not answering the question we have now :P
15:08:26 <JVassie> "All my graphics are licensed under GPL."
15:08:27 <planetmaker> JVassie: yes... that'd be best... but people... are not all that easy-going
15:08:34 <JVassie> whos the fanboi now?
15:08:35 <JVassie> :/
15:08:39 <Purno> you both are :P
15:09:02 <planetmaker> Purno: on the contrary. This issue is only an issue as people do NOT care
15:09:02 * Hyronymus points Purno to the private channel
15:09:07 <planetmaker> and chose NO license
15:09:14 <planetmaker> like CC-BY or GPL
15:09:33 <planetmaker> when that decision would have been made years ago - we'd not have any of those discussions or uncertainties
15:09:44 <JVassie> oh the benefits of hindsight..
15:09:47 <JVassie> or foresight
15:09:47 <planetmaker> :-)
15:09:49 <planetmaker> quite
15:09:53 <Ammler> Hyronymus: your issue is that you should split upload current set to bananas and license for future work/releases
15:10:00 <planetmaker> but the licenses were around and people knew already then
15:10:05 <JVassie> back to PHP
15:10:06 <planetmaker> but people still don't care
15:10:07 * JVassie sighs
15:10:18 <planetmaker> like modern station set.
15:10:27 <planetmaker> disgusting attitude :S
15:11:05 <Ammler> well, the main issue is that bananas doesn't care
15:11:32 <Ammler> so you need always again to do the work and convince people to make license
15:15:40 <planetmaker> hm...
15:17:45 <Hyronymus> files have to be tar I assume?
15:18:46 <Ammler> "You will only upload content of which you are (one of) the original author(s)." -> "You will only upload content with valid license." and you are done :-)
15:19:02 <Ammler> Hyronymus: or zip
15:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: who defines what an "invalid" license is?
15:19:13 <Ammler> it does repack anyway
15:19:17 <Hyronymus> it doesn't accept zip :s
15:19:25 <Hyronymus> This type is not yet supported.
15:19:44 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: that cuold be listed
15:21:53 <Hyronymus> why....
15:21:55 <Hyronymus> Unhandled Exception
15:21:57 <Hyronymus> An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
15:22:07 * Hyronymus fetches coffee
15:22:20 <Terkhen> IIRC it only accepts tar
15:23:13 <Ammler> Terkhen: it allows uploading the zps from DevZone
15:23:18 <Ammler> DevZone does not make tar
15:23:23 <Terkhen> ok
15:23:33 <planetmaker> bananas accepts zips just fine
15:23:44 * planetmaker reads slowly
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15:23:47 <planetmaker> today
15:23:57 <Lycrauss> hello guys! i have a question
15:24:09 <planetmaker> hi
15:24:20 <planetmaker> @get topic -3
15:24:20 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'topic' is not a valid topic number.
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15:24:22 <planetmaker> ;-)
15:24:36 <planetmaker> @topic get -3
15:24:36 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
15:24:41 <planetmaker> there ;-)
15:24:45 <JVassie> lol
15:25:04 <Lycrauss> in version 0.3.6 there is this fix:Only a server can rename a town in a MP game
15:25:12 <JVassie> @get 41656
15:25:12 <DorpsGek> JVassie: Error: '41655' is not a valid topic number.
15:25:16 <JVassie> LIES
15:25:37 <JVassie>
15:25:38 <JVassie> see
15:25:39 <Lycrauss> is there a way to change that?
15:25:43 <JVassie> oh wait
15:25:55 <JVassie> wha
15:25:55 <Terkhen> are you really playing with version 0.3.6?
15:26:00 <JVassie> <JVassie> @get 41656
15:26:00 <JVassie> <DorpsGek> JVassie: Error: '41655' is not a valid topic number.
15:26:01 <Lycrauss> no
15:26:02 <JVassie> errr
15:26:18 <Lycrauss> 1.1.1 but the fix is obiously still in there^^
15:26:36 <Lycrauss> im always playing wit hmy buddy and we would like to rename the citis, both of us
15:27:24 <Terkhen> only the server can rename towns, because otherwise, since renaming is free, griefers would connect to online games and rename every town to whatever
15:27:37 <Terkhen> to my knowledge there is no way to enable renaming of towns for all players
15:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but there is no reason to rigorously forbid it either...
15:28:04 <planetmaker> yup, that's the reason afaik
15:28:06 <Lycrauss> no way to make a client "op" or "admin" or something?
15:28:11 <Hyronymus> I keep getting the error
15:28:26 <Hyronymus> and zips fail
15:28:45 <Hyronymus> am using 7zip to create a tar
15:29:02 <planetmaker> try without tar...
15:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Hyronymus: made sure the tar is _uncompressed_?
15:29:28 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: yes, it could be changed
15:29:48 <Hyronymus> checking Eddi|zuHause
15:30:20 <Terkhen> hmmm... I suppose that it is not possible to rename stuff using rcon, but I'm not sure
15:30:20 * JVassie rars
15:30:23 <Terkhen> sounds quite unlikely
15:31:29 * SpComb unzips
15:31:34 <Hyronymus> it's uncompressed, Eddi|zuHause
15:31:41 <Hyronymus> can't even choose a compression method
15:31:50 <__ln__>
15:32:07 <SpComb> __ln__: oldhat
15:33:04 <Lycrauss> so, no chance for clientside-town-renaming at the moment?
15:33:11 <Terkhen> Lycrauss: no, sorry
15:33:29 <Lycrauss> well, ok, thanks for the help!
15:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: you realize this is 2 years old?
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15:34:35 <__ln__> nope
15:35:08 <Alberth> lol, that's r1377 :D
15:35:36 <__ln__> a lot of people like things that are even older than 2 years of age.
15:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> how dare they!
15:36:01 <Alberth> date: Tue Jan 04 19:49:44 2005 +0000 <-- you can say that again :)
15:37:48 <Hyronymus> ok, what ZIP settings do I need for a ZIP to be accepted?
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15:38:43 <planetmaker> sometimes bananas has issues... but the error description so far was not concise enough to know ;-)
15:40:05 <Hyronymus> I can't help that
15:40:27 <Hyronymus> all I get is "This type is not yet supported."
15:40:48 <Hyronymus> yet gives me some hope that 1 day it'll be supported fortunately
15:41:24 <planetmaker> Did you try another thing than 7zip?
15:42:02 <Hyronymus> no
15:42:16 <Hyronymus> but I started with the ZIP from the Dutch sets page
15:42:25 <Hyronymus> that was made some years ago
15:43:17 <Hyronymus> wtf
15:43:22 <Hyronymus> sorry but really
15:43:26 <Zuu> I always use7zip to make my tar files.
15:43:33 <Zuu> use 7zip*
15:43:54 <Hyronymus> can someone please write at the upload page that a grf file is supposed to be uploaded?
15:44:48 <planetmaker> Zuu: but maybe you have different settings... 7zip is not known for having no config possibilities ;-)
15:48:03 <Ammler> DevZone uses 7zip too
15:53:17 <planetmaker> then it should be no issue. usually
15:53:39 <planetmaker> well... the set seems to be uploaded?
15:53:45 <planetmaker> so... the issue seems solved
15:57:53 <Hyronymus> yes, because a ZIP wasn't required
15:58:09 <Hyronymus> it only accepts grf's it seems
15:58:26 <Hyronymus> quite curious how other sets get their licence included then though
16:02:37 <planetmaker> Hyronymus: it surely accepts zips which include all allowed files (but no additional ones)
16:03:18 <frosch123> if you only need to upload a grf (without custom license or readme), you can iirc directly upload the grf
16:07:56 *** KouDy has joined #openttd
16:08:40 <planetmaker> yes, one can
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17:12:23 <andythenorth> bah
17:12:29 <andythenorth> maybe it's time for a break from the game
17:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause> which of the games?
17:12:49 <andythenorth> the game of making things for ottd
17:14:11 <andythenorth> I am increasingly just wanting to flame people - even one's I like
17:14:17 <andythenorth> -'
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17:16:57 <planetmaker> which posting is causing your distress this time, andythenorth ?
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17:17:08 <andythenorth> towboats
17:17:42 <andythenorth> but mostly I think the issue is that I'm working on things out of obligation
17:17:44 <andythenorth> not for fun
17:18:04 <planetmaker> hm :S
17:18:10 <planetmaker> not fun
17:18:20 <andythenorth> I've committed to quite a lot :P
17:19:06 <planetmaker> hehe, yeah
17:19:34 <planetmaker> possibly the p1kka attitude helps there: just work on it... but there's no timeline ;-)
17:20:18 <andythenorth> I have no timeline :)
17:20:36 <andythenorth> the p1kka attitude I need to cultivate is a teflon attitude to player feedback :P
17:20:46 <planetmaker> :-)
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17:21:26 <planetmaker> Player feedback is good. But you should realise the stuff _you_ find interesting
17:21:41 <frosch123> Hyr|dinner: the web link for the dutch trainset points to a download location. that is not exactly useful, as bananas already supplies a download. maybe you should link to some homepage or the forum thread instead?
17:22:35 <andythenorth> I should get my sense of humour back. It's lacking :P
17:24:15 <andythenorth> if I start flaming people, I'll look like an idiot :|
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17:26:06 <Alberth> you are free to send me a PM if you like
17:27:02 <Alberth> planetmaker: feedback is good, in a positive way imho, ie 'he, you can improve it in this and this way' rather 'that's wrong'
17:27:16 <Alberth> +than
17:27:45 <frosch123> like "he, you can improve it by removing it" ?
17:28:38 <planetmaker> Alberth: sure, you're right
17:28:41 * andythenorth favoured the dalestan effect
17:28:44 <planetmaker> Constructive feedback
17:29:03 <andythenorth> when dalestan was around, the forums had there was a higher standard of....well everything really
17:29:03 <planetmaker> which works along the lines of the intention of a project :-)
17:29:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the standard wasn't different really
17:29:30 <andythenorth> objectively probably not :)
17:30:00 <planetmaker> still his knife-edge postings and replies are in a way nice to read
17:30:11 *** Hyr|dinner is now known as Hyronymus
17:30:33 <andythenorth> it makes it appear better :)
17:31:05 <andythenorth> when tested, people report boy babies cry louder than girl babies
17:31:11 <andythenorth> despite decibels being same
17:31:23 <planetmaker> really? :-)
17:32:16 <frosch123> my 4 year old nice definitely cries louder than my 0.5 year old nephew
17:32:29 <planetmaker> :-)
17:32:31 <Rubidium> dB or dB(A) ?
17:32:32 <frosch123> *niece
17:34:10 <andythenorth> this is according to 'science by bbc news website'
17:34:11 <JVassie> LOUDER
17:34:16 <andythenorth> it's hardly Nature magazine :P
17:34:34 <andythenorth> anyway, with dalestan around, forums were probably objective same, but seemed better :)
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17:39:21 <JVassie> what happened to dalestan?
17:39:36 <JVassie> andythenorth?
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17:39:52 <Rubidium> AFAIK: lack of time + loss of interest
17:39:58 <JVassie> oh
17:40:37 <planetmaker> he at least managed to hand over the important projects of his :-)
17:40:39 <frosch123> he did about 3 posts in the last year
17:41:26 <andythenorth> speaking of constructive feedback....
17:41:30 <andythenorth> ...rivers
17:41:43 <Hyronymus> he's missed
17:41:52 <andythenorth>
17:41:54 <andythenorth>
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17:42:36 <__ln__> maybe you need a shore leave
17:42:42 <andythenorth> in the _11.png - the ones with dots I think shouldn't exist
17:42:57 <andythenorth> I could draw them, but I'll complain :P
17:43:11 <andythenorth> it's only 6 more sprites
17:43:16 <andythenorth> but they're dumb :P
17:44:14 <andythenorth> Rubidium: probably you get final say?
17:44:47 <Rubidium> oh I do?
17:44:52 <andythenorth> I reckon
17:45:04 <andythenorth> seeing as it was your request
17:46:40 * andythenorth is reading about free monoids, and wishes he was better at maths
17:46:49 <Rubidium> okay... from the center tile 2 to the south east. The border at the NE side probably needs to be slightly darker; now it seems brighter as if it's banking up towards the river instead of down
17:46:52 <planetmaker> monoids?
17:47:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: draw some kind of tunnel entrance at the top edges for some kind of source
17:47:46 <frosch123> rivers starting on a hill is fine, isn't it?
17:48:36 <andythenorth> so what should a river source look like anyway?
17:48:43 <frosch123> and sewer/drain at the bottom
17:48:50 <andythenorth> and should rivers narrow for a few tiles?
17:48:53 <andythenorth> at the end
17:48:56 <andythenorth> unnavigable
17:49:04 <frosch123> andythenorth: some stones, with the joining between them
17:50:02 <andythenorth> Rubidium: ??
17:50:15 <andythenorth> ^ the one that looks like it's banking up?
17:50:31 <Rubidium> no, one more to the SE
17:51:01 <andythenorth> ok understood
17:51:02 <Rubidium> the edge seems lighter than the grass tile next to it, whereas on the one you circled the grass tile next to it is brighter
17:51:49 <andythenorth> yeah it's shaded wrong
17:51:51 <andythenorth> I'll fix
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17:53:00 <andythenorth> I'll draw the silly slope peices as springs / sinkholes
17:53:27 <andythenorth> I haven't redrawn most of the small corner pieces, they looked ok
17:55:12 * andythenorth hopes other climates get done with flood-fill :P
17:55:50 <andythenorth> can someone point out in the FISH thread why the towboat can't be drawn as they all want it?
17:55:56 <andythenorth> the answer should be obvious
17:56:17 <andythenorth> here's the version they all hate:
17:58:51 <andythenorth> ach nvm
17:58:52 <andythenorth>
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18:04:55 <Ammler> looks nice, the glitch is quite obvious and not really that bad
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18:05:43 <andythenorth> Ammler: looks ok yes?
18:05:51 <andythenorth> and if it was another barge longer?
18:05:59 <andythenorth> or even 9 barges, as suggested?
18:05:59 <Ammler> how does that matter
18:06:08 <Ammler> just don't make a screenshot in that case
18:06:39 <andythenorth> already it clips buildings
18:06:48 <andythenorth> maybe it's actually just a bad idea and should be removed
18:06:49 <Ammler> as long as there are not articulated ships, you can't avoid it
18:07:08 <Alberth> you just need to have a wider canal
18:07:34 <andythenorth> so I should just do it as they want? 1 barge central, 2 barges, 2 barges, 1 tugboat central
18:07:40 <andythenorth> as it's clipping anyway
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18:08:51 <Alberth> is there one that makes you happy?
18:09:38 <andythenorth> this is mockup of length if I do it as requested:
18:10:08 <Ammler> do you like it?
18:10:10 <Alberth> although it may be better to let it rest for a few months, it is quite impossible to make up your mind objectively now, I think
18:10:22 <andythenorth> doing it that long - it will flicker a lot as it fights the sprite sorter
18:10:45 <andythenorth> but apparently that's desired
18:10:59 <Wolf01> evening
18:11:03 <andythenorth> hello Wolf01
18:11:11 <Alberth> I like the 2, 2, 1+boat version better (that you originally wanted)
18:12:37 <andythenorth> the desired 9 barge version would look like this:
18:12:56 <andythenorth> and would clip out of canals, locks, rivers and ship depots
18:13:19 <andythenorth> it would however be realistic
18:14:07 <Alberth> all too big imho
18:14:25 <Alberth> you are aware I don't care about realism, right? :)
18:15:13 <Alberth> if you want a balanced one, 2,2,boat would be it, I think
18:15:27 <Alberth> or do you want larger ones?
18:23:46 <andythenorth> for gameplay reason, I want a large one
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18:23:55 <andythenorth> it's a question of capacity + range of refits
18:24:27 <andythenorth> 1,2,3,4,5 barges with ~200t ea
18:24:34 <andythenorth> makes a nice ship
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18:29:05 <Alberth> but bigger than 5 barges?
18:30:46 <Alberth> if not, then you first design looks fine to me
18:30:51 <Alberth> *your
18:31:36 <Alberth> you can make one with 4 barges for people that worry about steering abilities of the captain ;)
18:31:53 <andythenorth> not bigger than 5
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18:32:51 <Alberth> I like that, bigger just gets too bulky imho
18:33:02 <andythenorth> Rubidium:
18:33:07 <andythenorth> fix of tile slope
18:33:48 <andythenorth> fixed sufficiently?
18:44:26 <andythenorth> what is gained by these being different sprites?
18:44:38 <andythenorth> whoever designed river spec was basically setting them up to never get drawn :P
18:44:45 <andythenorth> it's way too anal
18:45:11 <andythenorth> way / slightly /s
18:47:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: using different sprites near shore is something opengfx wanted
18:47:24 <frosch123> river specs do not need different graphics
18:47:28 <andythenorth> there are at least 4 more sprites I can't identify a use for
18:47:39 <frosch123> however, ogfx uses a varaction2 to check the height and use different sprites
18:47:48 <frosch123> so, i guess those sprites should just be the same
18:47:48 <andythenorth> ah hah
18:48:01 <frosch123> no need to draw them twice, the nfo can reference the same :)
18:48:09 <andythenorth> hmm
18:48:17 <andythenorth> I should recode this grf :P
18:48:25 <andythenorth> but that wasn't part of the plan
18:48:40 <andythenorth>
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19:48:29 <Wolf01> 'night
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20:18:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22650 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 3 dirs):
20:18:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
20:18:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: When changing difficulty settings over the network, do not just reopen the difficulty window if any game options window is opened; instead invalidate them properly [FS#4653] (r22618, r22617)
20:18:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] If callback 33 returns a value out of range, no sound effect shall be played [FS#4656] (r22614)
20:18:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Use rotated heightmap sizes for reporting scaling problems [FS#4663] (r22608)
20:18:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: No client error packet was sent to the admin bots [FS#4585] (r22384)
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20:22:04 <frosch123> night
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20:23:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22651 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
20:23:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
20:23:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: When closing an AI company the local player cheated to, we need to cheat him to another company [FS#4654] (r22624, r22623)
20:23:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: When closing down companies their shares in other companies must be sold even if share trading is disabled at that point of time (r22622)
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20:23:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: When asking the user to confirm an unsafe unpausing, there is no need to execute a command if 'no' is choosed. This also prevents crashing when clicking unpause while the confirm window is shown (r22621)
20:23:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Enforce refit orders to be 'always go to depot' orders; service-only and stop-in-depot orders make no sense with refitting [FS#4651] (r22620)
20:23:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Consider the size of the vehicle sprite for the lineheight in the company
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20:26:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22652 /branches/1.1/ (10 files in 4 dirs):
20:26:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
20:26:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Implement variables 25 and 7F for railtypes (r22633)
20:26:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Additional text in fund industry window is NewGRF supplied and thus should have a default colour (r22631)
20:26:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Also initialise _old_vds with newgame settings; TTD savegames do not contain these settings [FS#4622] (r22626)
20:26:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not zero the orders of disaster vehicles when converting savegames [FS#4642] (r22625)
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20:29:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22653 /branches/1.1/ (18 files in 2 dirs):
20:29:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
20:29:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Disable the 'set parameters' button in the NewGRF GUI, if the GRF specifies to have no parameters and one would not be able to set any parameters anyway (r22642)
20:29:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Keep the previous owner of the upper and lower lock parts if they are built on existing water (r22638)
20:29:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Airports should not expose the tile specific random bits of the north tile. Only airport tiles should access those (r22636)
20:29:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Correctly reseed random bits of industries and industry tiles (r22635, r22634)
20:35:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22654 /branches/1.1/ (39 files in 3 dirs):
20:35:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
20:35:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Switching from a red to a white highlight (by switching to another tool) without switching the highlight mode (HT_RECT etc.) did not mark the selection dirty [FS#4670] (r22649)
20:35:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Parameters from NewGRFs were not properly parsed in all cases [FS#4599] (r22648, r22630, r22629, r22628, r22627)
20:35:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: GetSection() does not return a LockPart [FS#4678] (r22645)
20:35:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Disallow building NewObjects on water tiles owned by another company (r22643)
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20:58:48 <planetmaker> good night
21:05:12 <Terkhen> good night
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